00:33:24 <arseniiv> ais523: agree that many edge cases could and should be incorporated in definitions
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00:33:49 <arseniiv> though I didn’t understand what 0/0 = _ means
00:37:16 <arseniiv> also it seems I’m not as lucky to have an exact construction of Cantor’s pairing inversion included in ProofWiki. So I will need to be helped by someone here and @told about it or (hopefully someone has some links), or else reinvent that particular wheel :D
00:39:01 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> agree that many edge cases could and should be incorporated in definitions => the day I had known about x mod 0 := x I was very very happy. It plays nice with ≡ (mod 0) and Z/0Z, it’s a total cake
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03:57:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63330&oldid=63329 * A * (+47) /* Computational class */ Bad language...
03:59:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63331&oldid=63326 * A * (+7)
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04:04:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63332&oldid=63331 * A * (+501)
04:05:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63333&oldid=63332 * A * (-40) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ What
04:05:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63334&oldid=63333 * A * (+0) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
04:05:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63335&oldid=63330 * A * (+77) /* Computational class */
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04:08:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63336&oldid=63334 * A * (+318) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
04:09:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63337&oldid=63336 * A * (+41) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
04:11:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63338&oldid=63337 * A * (+156) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
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09:43:11 <vetrivel> I have a suggestion after going through the comments given for your project in hn.
09:43:13 <vetrivel> https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=20154008&goto=item%3Fid%3D20150179%2320154008
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10:20:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63339&oldid=63335 * A * (-122) /* Computational class */
10:24:07 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63340&oldid=63293 * A * (+76) /* Computational class */
10:24:46 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63341&oldid=63340 * A * (-3) /* Adar-= */ If I'm getting it right...
10:25:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63342&oldid=63339 * A * (-214) /* Computational class */
10:25:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63343&oldid=63342 * A * (-1938) /* Turing completeness proof waiting to be verified */
10:25:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63344&oldid=63343 * A * (-1146) /* Adar Interpreter */
10:26:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63345&oldid=63341 * TuxCrafting * (-76) Undo revision 63340 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): by definition, a PDA can emulate a FSA. however, adar is a FSA, therefore it cannot emulate a PDA. i think you misunderstand "compile to"
10:27:28 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63346&oldid=63345 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Undo revision 63341 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) revert FSA -> PDA category edit because it's not a PDA
10:28:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63347&oldid=63338 * A * (-359) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine or via reduction */
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10:37:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63348&oldid=63344 * Salpynx * (+2274) /* Computational class */ raising you a single register counter machine, which may or may not be equivalent?
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10:52:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63349&oldid=63348 * Salpynx * (+16) /* Computational class */ clarifying that not all Adar programs are 1CMs,
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11:50:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63350&oldid=63349 * A * (+289)
11:50:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63351&oldid=63350 * A * (-2)
11:52:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63352&oldid=63351 * A * (-287) Undo; that is totally rubbish.
12:07:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63353&oldid=63352 * A * (+4) Hgi 's
12:09:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63354&oldid=63353 * TuxCrafting * (-5) don't change the wording of other people's posts
12:11:27 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63355&oldid=63346 * A * (+87) /* Looping counter */
12:12:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63356&oldid=63355 * TuxCrafting * (-87) Undo revision 63355 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) the spec explicitely says adar operates on *integers*. don't add examples which just abuse the implementation
12:30:38 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63357&oldid=63356 * TuxCrafting * (-57) what. of course it's possible to make oscillators with a different form
12:30:44 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63358&oldid=63357 * A * (-1) /* Adar-= */
12:36:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63359&oldid=63354 * A * (+390) /* Computational class */ Need verification for coverage of the formula
12:40:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63360&oldid=63359 * A * (+18) /* Request for a different form for oscillators */
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12:45:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63361&oldid=63360 * TuxCrafting * (+536)
12:46:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63362&oldid=63361 * TuxCrafting * (+0) wording
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12:50:39 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63363&oldid=63358 * A * (+140) /* Oscillators */
12:51:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63364&oldid=63362 * A * (+237) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */
12:52:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63365&oldid=63364 * A * (+77) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ sign
12:53:24 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63366&oldid=63363 * A * (+50) /* Oscillators */
12:54:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63367&oldid=63365 * A * (-95) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ golf my message
12:55:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63368&oldid=63367 * A * (-71) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ Trim my message
12:58:11 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63369&oldid=63366 * A * (+176) /* Examples */
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13:13:37 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63370&oldid=63369 * A * (+249) /* Cat program */ Definitely more useful
13:21:17 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63371&oldid=63370 * A * (+125) /* + interpreter */
13:25:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63372&oldid=63371 * A * (+246) /* APLWSI interpreter */
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14:25:51 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63373&oldid=63372 * A * (+31) /* Oscillators */
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14:34:28 <esowiki> [[NullScript 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63374 * A * (+2422) Created page with "[[NullScript 1]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. It is a subset of [[NullScript 2]] and inspired by [[NullScript 2]] and bf. == Commands == These are NullScript 1's..."
14:36:35 <esowiki> [[NullScript 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63375&oldid=63374 * A * (-832)
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15:25:45 <fizzie> TIL (from Logitech): a keycap snapping off (legs broken, stuck inside the switch) during the warranty period while typing normally is "normal wear and tear".
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15:33:00 <fizzie> As a special one time courtesy only, because they're such Good Guys, they might still mail me a spare keycap. Maybe. If they feel like it.
15:33:41 <int-e> I can see how that's a problem... they do that 105 times and somebody can have a brand new looking keyboard!
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15:48:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63376&oldid=63368 * Ais523 * (+851) /* Computational class */ the point of no return
16:05:35 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63377&oldid=62993 * B jonas * (+765) on bitwise ops
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16:13:00 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63378&oldid=63377 * B jonas * (+0) INT opcode had wrong encoding
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17:13:43 <arseniiv> @tell b_jonas there is—I think, a less painful—pairing function based on bit interleaving (BTW like in tuxcrafting’s Minsky machine impl from yesterday’s active wiki page)
17:14:44 <arseniiv> I think implemeting this one (and projections) would be smooth, but I’ll do it a bit later
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18:12:29 <arseniiv> in a creole esolang, one has functions with names “::”, “fst” and “cdr”
18:13:06 <arseniiv> or maybe “cons”, “_1” and “snd”
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20:21:30 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63379&oldid=63373 * Salpynx * (-5) /* Oscillators */ not really that complex, in fact "pretty trivial" was used to describe constructing other forms, just spread the effects over more registers
20:27:28 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63380&oldid=63379 * Salpynx * (+19) Category: No IO
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20:49:34 <arseniiv> so, it’s not that painless as it appeared, if one is to stick to use μ only when it’s really necessary
20:50:02 <arseniiv> but maybe floor … sqrt things are even worse
20:50:58 <int-e> arseniiv: sorry, I'm too lazy to read the logs... what kind of target would that be for?
20:52:10 <arseniiv> int-e: traditional recursive functions, i. e. when we should return only one natural number, not an arbitrary tuple of them
20:53:19 <int-e> I would probably go with C(n+k+1,2) + C(k,1)...
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20:54:03 <int-e> Encoding <n,k> bijectively as natural numbers, where natural numbers start at 0.
20:54:06 <arseniiv> I almost have written cons, fst and snd by bit-interleaving, and I was distracted by many unexpected and emotional things today
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20:54:45 <int-e> bit interleaving sounds fairly painful in that context, to me.
20:54:46 <arseniiv> if not for those, I’d be quicker, but just now I’m quite melancholic instead
20:55:34 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah. At first I forgot that we work with S … Z and not bit strings. For bit strings, it’s a lot easier and more natural
20:55:42 <int-e> (the fun bit is that one can compute n+k+1 (the difficult part of fst and snd) by minimization.)
20:55:58 <int-e> Ah. Right, if you have bit strings then I'd agree.
20:56:31 <arseniiv> so I had to estimate bit length of a number (as it itself :D it would work) and do explicit bit shifts
20:56:37 <int-e> There is actually a flavor of primitive recursion that operates on bit strings... it's nicer that the successor based one when doing complexity theory.
20:57:25 <arseniiv> <int-e> (the fun bit is that one can compute n+k+1 (the difficult part of fst and snd) by minimization.) => I try to avoid it until the last step, when we run some Minsky machine
20:58:04 <int-e> So Bellantoni & Cook use that, for example, for their characterization of polytime computable functions in a restricted primitive recursive formalism.
20:58:31 <int-e> arseniiv: which is fine; it's actually *bounded* minimization, and that can be done with primitive recursion alone.
20:58:40 <arseniiv> <int-e> There is actually a flavor of primitive recursion that operates on bit strings... => yeah, I even had independently rediscovered it and made an eso YE<I always forgot that part>A
20:58:49 <int-e> But it's a useful building block to have.
20:59:47 <int-e> arseniiv: shameless plug: https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Minsky_Machines.html
21:01:36 <int-e> (built on top of https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Recursion-Theory-I.html which does all the hard things... including pairing, and going all the way up to undecidability. It's missing the Kleene normal form theorem though (recursive functions are *defined* as a single minimization over a primitive recursive predicate; so it's missing that that recursive functions are closed under minimization))
21:02:57 <arseniiv> int-e: as for the other way around, I had sketched up some procedure to make M. machines into μ-recursive functions, but these were not bare-bones ones, having tuple return values and several other useful additions
21:03:39 <arseniiv> I mean, functions into machines
21:08:16 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah the other direction looks pretty tedious.
21:13:48 <int-e> (Well, I guess the main challenge would be to come up with the right building blocks to make this easy.)
21:15:03 <int-e> The requested page title contains invalid characters: "<". <-- there goes my plan to add a redirect from YE<I always forgot that part>A to YEOOIIOOIOA
21:15:38 <int-e> (I probably wouldn't have followed through with it anyway... but I'm not sure.)
21:19:21 <arseniiv> <int-e> there goes my plan to add a redirect from YE<I always forgot that part>A to YEOOIIOOIOA => well, it would be not a bad idea indeed
21:20:22 <int-e> fungot: forget what?
21:20:22 <fungot> int-e: by charles fnord.), is composed, came into use; anterior to the existence of such a character, even in this country? are you not afraid of that. you have done exceedingly well by me.
21:21:02 <arseniiv> the final definitions look more or less nice:
21:21:02 <arseniiv> cons = chain plus (chain bitexpand π_1_2, chain shl1 (chain bitexpand
21:21:03 <arseniiv> (my haskellish syntax, and I mean “chain” everywhere, was partly a mistake)
21:21:32 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah I imagine some intermediate language would actually be useful for a Minsky machine -> recursive function translation.
21:22:01 <arseniiv> <int-e> wait what? => I still forget, so the present tense seems more appropriate :D
21:22:48 <arseniiv> int-e: also I used a C-like language to represent Minsky machines other way around
21:22:59 <int-e> arseniiv: how about "keep forgetting" while you're improving that part ;-)
21:23:09 <arseniiv> so one can easily syntactically compile
21:23:20 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I totally keep doing that
21:23:54 <int-e> arseniiv: you're in good company there... Turing did some close-to-structured programming for Turing Machines as well.
21:23:55 <arseniiv> as for the other one, I always need to open charmap to write its name
21:27:06 <int-e> arseniiv: I had great fun with that Minsky machine formalization. I don't actually have any higher level representation of minsky machines, but I made the lemmas composable in a nice way, allowing me to write pseudo-code as part of the proof: http://paste.debian.net/1087492/
21:28:05 <int-e> (I'll readily admit that this is not very readable, but the comments do actually correspond to the instantiated lemmas)
21:29:23 <arseniiv> certainly I agree that if you defined it yourself, it should appear more readable and natural
21:33:00 <arseniiv> I feel a great urge to play minecraft instead of finishing what I begun with that implementation. Everything seems ready to do semantically filled things but it’s late and I suddenly remember I’m lazy
21:33:26 <arseniiv> so I’ll go with the easy route
21:34:12 <arseniiv> there are villagers to transport by rail and be enslaved in a small box far away from the ground
21:35:03 <int-e> I try to avoid open-ended games. I don't always succeed.
21:35:30 <shachaf> int-e: you should play factorio hth
21:35:31 <arseniiv> yeah, it’s a total waste of time, so we’re on and off
21:36:25 <int-e> shachaf: I'm afraid to look what that is
21:38:26 <int-e> ah no that looks safe from me
21:38:37 <arseniiv> AFAIK there you are stranded on an alien planet and you build factories to fly from there in the end, but you don’t have to, and instead you may be allowed to build a gigantic display which plays a video of Sandstorm by Darude
21:39:36 <int-e> I'll sooner get back into SimCity. :P
21:40:45 <arseniiv> at least SimCity seems less wasteful than Sims
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21:55:05 <shachaf> You're always automating everything so there's pretty much no manual work to do.
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23:43:26 <salpynx> random esolang / abstract rewriting system idea:
23:43:43 <salpynx> a string-rewriting machine that outputs sequential "statements" or "questions" loosely directed at zero or more Oracle Machines. Oracle machines can either respond or not to the output.
23:44:02 <salpynx> If an OM reponds, that output is repeated as as input to another OM via a "copy-and-paste" mechanism. At some point in the execution cycle, the machine can rewrite all of its previous output with an ε-production, resulting in a context-free self-interaction of OMs, or potentially the empty string.
23:44:25 <salpynx> Thinking it could be called Talk or Talkative, with an alpha-privative prepended to reference the ε-production.
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