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00:40:42 <lambdabot> ENVA 300020Z 09003KT 9999 FEW001 BKN022 11/11 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 25007KT
00:40:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 300020Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 NSC 18/13 Q1020
00:41:10 <int-e> oerjan: a bit humid, perhaps
00:41:31 <int-e> not sure it matters at that temperature, especially when one's inside.
00:44:04 <lambdabot> KOAK 292353Z 27010KT 10SM FEW011 BKN200 21/11 A3003 RMK AO2 SLP170 T02060111 10211 20178 58007
00:44:35 <zzo38> If making a DOS program that uses EGA, it could be required that if DOSBOX is used then it must be set to EGA mode, if it uses the interrupt for vertical retrace.
00:45:27 <int-e> oerjan: fyi, virtual swatting is positive reinforcement :P
00:48:57 <zzo38> I think static arrays are not moved around at runtime in QuickBASIC, so maybe an interrupt routine could be stored in there (although it will be necessary to be careful to unset it when the program terminates, even in case of error, I think).
00:51:23 <HackEso> bdsmreclist:* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ swatter:The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles. \ userweps:boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter
00:51:55 <oerjan> int-e: it indeed doesn't feel that humid inside
00:52:45 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: fyi, virtual swatting is positive reinforcement :P <-- scandalous!
00:54:54 <int-e> "A blockchain probably doesn't solve the security problems you think it solves. The security problems it solves are probably not the ones you have." - Schneier on blockchains :)
00:55:12 <int-e> (In February... so a while ago.)
00:56:33 <b_jonas> sure. blockchains are mostly used to solve marketing problems these days, not tech problems
01:12:48 <shachaf> A heffalump or woozle / Is very / Confusil
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01:45:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Applesauce * New user account
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04:23:48 <zzo38> How (if any) will the phase of the moon affect your height and your back pain? Is it significant or only minor?
04:24:19 <shachaf> I've had some back pain recently, and today also a headache.
04:24:35 <shachaf> The moon is currently in phase 8. There must be a connection.
04:25:55 <zzo38> The "pom" command says: The Moon is Waning Crescent (9% of Full). I also have a calendar with the phase of the moon, too.
04:26:37 <zzo38> Since it can affect gravity, I thought it might do such thing, but I don't know how much.
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04:34:22 * oerjan skips and jumps the wiki
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04:35:30 <oerjan> that should clean up everything left after the binge.
04:57:19 <esowiki> [[Don't]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63810 * Cortex * (+564) Created page with "'''Don't''' was a very powerful esolang by [[|User:Cortex]] that had only three commands == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! What it did |- | <code>H</code> |..."
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08:45:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: excuse me but that seems suspicious
08:45:57 <b_jonas> it is right, new moon is two days from now
08:46:02 <b_jonas> sorry, moon phases are confusing
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13:10:15 <int-e> zzo38: if the moon had any significant effect we wouldn't be allowed to use spring-based balances in trade.
13:11:19 <int-e> (now explain tides)
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13:14:20 <int-e> I guess "scales" is the better word.
13:20:33 <int-e> we're talking about approximately 1/250000 g.
13:23:05 <int-e> But that would be if Earth and Moon stould still. Which they don't.
13:26:38 <int-e> So is what we really experience is the difference in "pull" between the surface of the Earth and its center? That would be even smaller, 1/17M g.
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13:29:34 <int-e> You'll see a larger effect from climbing up a mountain. (1/3k g from climbing 1km).
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13:49:47 <arseniiv> I think the Moon can’t reasonably change the height of someone human enough. If it were something really small, like possibly of a white-dwarf density or more, possibly one could be near enough to experience sufficient tidal force
13:54:35 <arseniiv> though I’m not sure about density. All I know small enough black holes have a sufficiently small event horizon for someone to be torn apart without going under it, and size of the horizon is the lower bound to the size of surface of anything not being a black hole, so if the black hole is big enough to not pull one apart above its horizon, then anything with that mass wouldn’t be able either
13:56:00 <arseniiv> but stellar-mass black holes should have a sufficient mass AFAIR, and moreso the Moon, so the Moon is an open question before we send someone there to test if they return intact
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13:57:20 <arseniiv> wait, I was carried away, I was already talking about hypothetical Moon-mass object, not the real one
14:00:57 <esowiki> [[Don't]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63811&oldid=63810 * A * (+320) Partial
14:05:06 <int-e> arseniiv: humans are not a rigid body
14:05:31 <esowiki> [[Don't]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63812&oldid=63811 * A * (+760) /* Implementation */
14:06:45 <int-e> (it's a known phenomenon that humans are larger in the morning when they get up, and shrink over the course of the day, mostly due to compression of spinal disks, I believe.)
14:08:01 <esowiki> [[Don't]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63813&oldid=63812 * A * (+257) /* Implementation */
14:13:10 <HackEso> The Moon is Waning Crescent (6% of Full)
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14:41:28 <zzo38> Have you played (or considered) poker with different betting limits during different betting rounds during the same hand?
14:42:11 <arseniiv> <int-e> (it's a known phenomenon that humans are larger in the morning when they get up, and shrink over the course of the day, mostly due to compression of spinal disks, I believe.) => yeah, I heard about the spine too
14:42:59 <arseniiv> though I don’t know if this can be meddled with by hanging
14:43:45 <arseniiv> hm this is possibly not the right word
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14:52:24 <arseniiv> int-e: what will be the little-endian case when encoding binary number 110, L ∘ L ∘ R or R ∘ L ∘ L?
14:52:24 <arseniiv> L = 2 _ 0, R = 2 0 _, L ∘ L ∘ R = 2 (2 (2 0 _) 0) 0, R ∘ L ∘ L = 2 0 (2 (2 _ 0) 0)
14:55:37 <arseniiv> I am slightly confused and maybe one should invent another pair of words like “inner-/outer-significant” or something
14:57:20 <arseniiv> though probably they already exist, this is partially a reason behind this question
14:59:46 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63814&oldid=63808 * Arseniiv * (-23) /* IO */ lessen the straps
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15:21:23 <zzo38> One thing I thought is, in a role playing game such as Dungeons&Dragons or some other system, if you have magic spells to prepare, one idea I have is random by use of cards.
15:22:37 <zzo38> Assume you have fifty-two spells, and using a standard deck of fifty-two cards. Pick up five cards, and then you can discard and draw once as in video poker. The spells you have available to cast are those five cards, and the kind of poker hand you have determines how much power you have available to spend.
15:25:20 <zzo38> (So, more power is achieved if you make a straight flush, but then you also have all the same suit; maybe each suit will be one of the four classical elements, so then you are fixed to one element only.)
15:26:30 <int-e> arseniiv: "don’t need to be, why" <-- it means you can change their height by non-relativistic means.
15:27:31 <int-e> arseniiv: I'd put the LSB at the outermost position
15:28:13 <int-e> arseniiv: that's the R . L . L one, I guess
15:28:32 <arseniiv> but surely a couple ten g’s are harmful to human functioning regardless of is they are rigid body enough
15:29:23 <int-e> not sure I follow... a rigid body wouldn't mind
15:30:05 <int-e> It wouldn't leave much room for life as we know it either, of course.
15:30:23 <arseniiv> yeah, I was exactly about that human would do mind
15:31:51 <arseniiv> <int-e> that's the R . L . L one, I guess => hm, no, the outermost here is R. So L . L . R then, thanks. It seems an implementation I’m writing treats endianness as you put it here, then!
16:14:12 <zzo38> I used to get many errors in dmesg like "usb 1-3: reset high-speed USB device number 2 using ehci_hcd" and "sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Asking for cache data failed" (I am not even using that drive though), but now it has stopped. Why is that?
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16:21:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but only in the sense that the betting rule is that if you raise stakes and don't go all in, you have to raise stakes by at least as much as the amount by which the stakes were last raised for that hand of cards, or by the starting stake if it wasn't raised yet
16:26:42 <zzo38> I have thought of using spread limit before the flop, and pot limit after the flop, so that you will not bet so much before the other cards are seen
16:27:19 <zzo38> (This would be for Texas Hold'em; I am not sure about Seven Card Stud)
16:29:43 <zzo38> How do I manually post a message to the list displayed by the "dmesg" command?
16:31:34 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured out how
16:32:21 <zzo38> (I also don't know why sometimes I get messages about the CDROM is not ready, even when I am not trying to use the optical drive.)
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17:07:17 <arseniiv> maybe someone knows: is there a simple way to do IO with stdin/stdout in Python bytewise?
17:08:25 <fizzie> It was something like sys.stdout.buffer.write(b'foo').
17:08:52 <arseniiv> fizzie: thanks, I’ll look at this!
17:09:05 <fizzie> "To write or read binary data from/to the standard streams, use the underlying binary buffer object. For example, to write bytes to stdout, use sys.stdout.buffer.write(b'abc')."
17:09:08 <fizzie> https://docs.python.org/3/library/sys.html
17:11:38 <arseniiv> ah, indeed! :) I was reading that page but hadn’t read to this point
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17:17:24 <zzo38> I mentioned before I had ideas about how to design a better program language than C, that can use all features of LLVM, and I thought one thing (which perhaps could be implemented by the use of macros, so doesn't need to be a built-in feature, perhaps), if you define a function then you might also define what its reverse is, in case you have a macro to automatically reverse any functions already used in case one of them is an error.
17:23:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: how about C++ with the usual extensions on gcc? it has destructors, and I don't think those can be put into C, simply on account that they're the one defining feature of C++, and so if you tried to put them into C, people would feel it's just a limited C++ variant
17:24:19 <b_jonas> and of course there's rust, which also has C++-like destructors
17:24:36 <zzo38> What I intend is neither C nor C++ nor Rust though
17:25:24 <b_jonas> not even C++ with gcc extensions?
17:25:31 <zzo38> (although, since you can call C functions from LLVM, and export functions in LLVM to call them in C, you would be able to use C functions with it too; also you could use in combination with Swift and Haskell, since LLVM supports calling conventions for Swift and Haskell too)
17:26:43 <b_jonas> ghc and rust also supports calling functions with C calling conventions, which is the typical way to connect haskell and rust with other languages
17:27:11 <b_jonas> the C calling conventions are basically the common conventions that a lot of different languages try to support, which I think is a good idea
17:27:21 <fizzie> I was looking at Zig documentation, speaking of vaguely C-style languages with an LLVM-based backend.
17:27:26 <b_jonas> there are sometimes difficulties with the details, but the main idea is good
17:27:51 <zzo38> Yes, in what I am dsecribing trying to make, you would be able to use any calling convention supported by LLVM
17:28:21 <b_jonas> Fortran gets some excemptions because of traditions, so you instead have to use the more limited fortran calling conventions from C
17:31:57 <b_jonas> that's probably not because fortran couldn't be made to call into C, but more like because few people want to write new fortran code, but some do want to call into existing fortran programs, and it's really not that hard to support calling into
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17:35:50 <zzo38> LLVM documentation does not seems to list Fortran calling conventions as far as I can tell
17:41:07 <zzo38> Also, rather than requiring its own standard library, I thought that the C standard library could just be used, although it would have its own standard macro library (which is also needed to make the program portable anyways), so the only other thing to link with is the C library, and only if you use it; if you can somehow avoid it then you don't need the C library either!
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18:25:17 <zzo38> Is there a free QuickBASIC compiler that can make real-mode DOS programs and that can use the Microsoft QuickBASIC commands such as SOUND and PLAY and POKE and so on?
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18:52:29 <fizzie> I think the only QuickBASIC clones I've run across have been targeting other platforms.
18:52:32 <zzo38> What I want to do in Linux is to read a file from the hard drive but ignoring all information about the data stored on the hard drive that is currently cached in RAM, except possibly the partition table. How can I do this on a system that is in use?
18:52:50 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, that is what I have seen too, and also seems to be missing some commands
18:55:40 <fizzie> Will the O_DIRECT flag (on the block device) do what you want? I'm not sure what its exact definition is, but it's at least a little along those lines.
18:57:17 <zzo38> fizzie: Maybe, but then presumably an implementation of the file system will be needed in order to find a particular file.
18:59:05 <fizzie> Right, that seems inherently to be part of "ignoring all cached information", including information about where the file's data is stored.
19:15:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: that... might be difficult, since there can be a race condition with Linux modifying metadata on the same file system, and if you want to ignore everything in the RAM, you can't avoid that race condition, and may read wrong data
19:16:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, what file system? you may want to look at the sources of boot loaders, such as grub-l, grub-2, and loadlin, because they have file system access (at least read only) that may be simpler than what Linux does
19:16:51 <zzo38> It is ext4 file system
19:18:05 <zzo38> The files I want to read are those that are not in use, and I intend to do this only for testing purposes, so such a race condition may be irrelevant
19:18:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: then perhaps look at the source of grub-2, it's the only thing that can read that
19:19:03 <b_jonas> ext4 never got added to grub-l, and I think loadlin got discontinued before ext4 came around
19:19:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can also try to run another copy of Linux for this, in such a way that it has read-only access to that disk or partition
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19:19:56 <b_jonas> you could use a virtual machine for that, or possibly user-mode linux
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19:22:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you can use the programs in the package e2fsprogs, which include fsck.ext4 and similar
19:22:38 <b_jonas> I think some of those may have a tool to read a file, or something close
19:22:47 <b_jonas> that said, that the file itself is not used doesn't seem enough guarantee to me
19:22:55 <b_jonas> it's more the other metadata that I'm worried about
19:23:21 <b_jonas> if the file itself is used (for writing), then of course you have a race condition, you would have even if you asked the kernel to read it, that's a different problem
19:24:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: the debugfs program from that package may help
19:24:30 <b_jonas> I don't know for sure if it does, read the docs
19:26:07 <b_jonas> that said, of course trying to read the file over the head of the kernel is less dangerous than trying to write it. your program could get confused and give you total nonsense, but at least it won't confuse the kernel or damage the file system
19:27:39 <zzo38> Yes, I don't want to write in this way, but only to read.
19:28:36 <zzo38> Yes, I tried that, and it works; thank you for that suggestion.
19:29:28 <zzo38> It uses read-only mode by default, so it works OK
19:33:07 <b_jonas> that seems nice, for a unix tool
19:44:11 <b_jonas> also yay, good to know that it works
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21:11:23 <zzo38> When copying a variable argument list in C to call a function that requires a va_list (such as vprintf), how can you add additional arguments at the beginning or end of the variable argument list?
21:12:07 <zzo38> (Is there a command to do that in C? If not in C, is there a way to do that in LLVM?)
21:22:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think there's a standard way. you might be able to fake it with libffi, provided you can figure out the number and types of arguments you have to pass through
21:23:17 <b_jonas> I think generally it's just best to make all the interfaces such that you never need to rely on varargs for more than convenience, eg. you can just do multiple printfs instead of construct a vararg list for printf, or use execvp instead of execlp
21:24:18 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I do when I need it at all (I don't need it often), although I just wanted to know if it is possible to do, anyways.
21:28:58 <b_jonas> and that's the better use of vararg, the functions that use it to take a variable _number_ of arguments. there's also the more pointless use, where it's only about an optional argument or an argument of variable type, like in open, fcntl, ioctl, some more obscure linux kernel interface stuff, curl_easy_setopt
21:29:45 <b_jonas> these days I believe enough in static typing and avoiding stupid errors in compile time that I think it would be better if such interfaces took a union of pointers, or at least a void pointer (in the open case like ioctl)
21:30:14 <b_jonas> though of course admittedly some of those interfaces have the excuse that the vararg made more sense when they were invented
21:34:43 <fizzie> For open and suchlike, I wouldn't be surprised if the (pre-prototype) history was just that they were defined with three arguments, and just called with two sometimes; with the header declaration just using an empty parameter list.
21:36:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: AFAIK open, the history is that it used to have just two arguments, because if you wanted to create a file, you called creat instead. later they added an O_CREAT flag to open, so it was too late to require the third argument.
21:37:03 <fizzie> The glibc definition of open lives in the header file, and uses __builtin_va_arg_pack_len to provide an error if called with the wrong number of arguments.
21:37:05 <b_jonas> at least I hope there's some gcc attribute magic to give a warning if you pass the wrong type of argument to open
21:37:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: does it also warn if you call it with the wrong type?
21:37:42 <shachaf> Did you see my fancy varargs thing http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt ?
21:37:57 <shachaf> I had to use a macro to add an extra sentinel argument at the end to make it work.
21:38:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: I haven't seen it
21:39:10 <shachaf> It may be possible without the sentinel argument, but I have to use a macro to pass type information as well.
21:42:07 <fizzie> I don't think there's any code in the header file to guard against a wrong type for the extra parameter, but maybe there's some extra magic elsewhere. Cutting off the __USE_FILE_OFFSET64 extra complications, it looks like http://ix.io/1Nmu/c
21:43:36 <fizzie> Which, AIUI, always complains if open is called with 4 or more arguments, and additionally complains about the missing mode if the flags are compile-time constant and contain O_CREAT or O_TMPFILE.
21:58:00 <zzo38> shachaf: I have seen that but not how fmt.h works.
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