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00:22:49 <kmc> shachaf: do you think languages should have better support for fixed point arithmetic
00:23:01 <kmc> programmers use floats for all kinds of things that don't have much dynamic range
00:23:10 <kmc> e.g. I'm using floats for UNIX timestamps down to microsecond
00:23:25 <kmc> but those will all have the same exponent
00:24:08 <kmc> also, do you think binary or decimal floating point is better
00:24:10 <kmc> binary's faster of course
00:24:15 <kmc> but decimal would match the way I'm thinking about this
00:24:55 <kmc> which is "10 digit integer + 6 decimal places"
00:25:11 <kmc> conveniently, people already specify these kinds of things in format strings.
00:25:32 <kmc> if you had a fixed point type of this form you could also format in a nice table-friendly way without repeating yourself.
00:25:44 <kmc> but it would have to really be as convenient as floats or people won't bother
00:25:53 <kmc> people even use floats for money, which is so scow
00:42:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63912&oldid=40423 * Salpynx * (+554) sharing a command to split Iota into 'readable' CL primitives
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02:15:36 <esowiki> [[Feta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63913&oldid=56997 * Voltage2007 * (+14)
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03:11:46 -!- ^ has changed nick to [.
03:25:10 <salpynx> ^ is a cooler name, because its is part of Punctree, which is a hip new language. [ is bf, which is old-fashioned and boring.
03:26:25 <salpynx> I want to make a joke about about [ = Java and ^=Ruby, but I'm not sure that Ruby is still the fashionable cool language. What is the new fashionable language? I'd guess Haskell (from experience) but I'm not so confident that those ppl were actually the "cool kids". I may have lost the ability to judge.
03:27:09 <kmc> probably JavaScript or Rust
03:27:16 <kmc> Ruby hasn't been cool in a while
03:28:16 <kmc> haskell was never really cool I don't think
03:28:25 <kmc> I also don't program anymore :/
03:28:27 <kmc> so what do I know
03:29:52 <kmc> i have no patience for the cool kids
03:30:10 <salpynx> Rust is a good candidate. I was thinking maybe Go too, but I haven't met anyone who programmed in Go, just those who used it as part of other things
03:30:27 <kmc> Go is polarizing
03:30:52 <kmc> some people love it, and the rest realize that it's a dumbed down language and the fan club is essentially proud of being too lazy to learn anything better
03:30:57 <kmc> the Go community is fiercly anti-intellectual
03:31:47 <kmc> Go was explicitly, according to its creator, designed to wring some level of productivity out of mediocre programmers
03:31:56 <kmc> which is of course what a company like Google needs
03:32:06 <kmc> and probably a lot of working Go programmers are fine with tha characterization
03:32:10 <kmc> but the Go 'fan club' can't admit it
03:32:43 <kmc> so they have to pretend all the dumbing down is actually brilliant and that the features Go lacks (such as generics, which even Java got 15 years ago) are useless
03:33:02 <kmc> instead of admitting the designers basically don't trust them to use generics correctly
03:33:19 <salpynx> Ruby jumped to mind because it seemed to have a very conscious 'cool kid' character, which was kind of funny, even though I actually liked using it. I liked Ruby, not so much the Rails bit.
03:33:37 <kmc> I think the Ruby hipsters have moved on to JavaScript and are now trying to ruin Rust too
03:33:48 <salpynx> That might explain why I haven't met any Go programmers :)
03:35:06 <salpynx> I do know some Ruby -> Rust people. That fits.
03:35:35 <kmc> they've aggressively marketed it to web people with no systems experience
03:35:44 <kmc> I used to be in favor of that strategy
03:35:48 <kmc> now, not so much
03:35:56 <kmc> largely because those people bring in a bunch of cultural baggage I don't like
03:36:59 <kmc> also they flat out ignore the needs of actual systems programmers
03:37:09 <kmc> like, a lot of the web people legitimately do not grasp the need for reproducable builds
03:37:21 <kmc> why shouldn't you just run every library on the current version from the package repo?
03:38:48 <salpynx> What I have seen of Rust seems like it has potential, and big advantages over C, but, yes, some of the over zealous evangelism and over-marketing was off-putting. I don't have much call to use it for any personal projects, but would like to pick it up if something seemed applicable.
03:39:35 <salpynx> I tend to do everything in python now, it's become too much of a comfort.
03:39:58 <kmc> I contributed to Rust for a long time and really regret it
03:40:07 <kmc> because I got emotionally invested and they took it in a direction that really bothers me
03:40:18 <kmc> but that is tied up in some personal issues that I don't need to drag up again
03:40:40 <salpynx> shame (about the big involvement + regret)
03:40:54 <kmc> whatever you think of the community, it is an excellent language
03:41:03 <kmc> that unlike most languages, brings something actually new to the table
03:41:08 <kmc> I consider it a C++ successor, not a C successor
03:41:11 <kmc> it's much more complicated than C
03:41:15 <kmc> C is a low-abstraction language
03:41:19 <kmc> C++ and Rust are high-abstraction languages
03:41:38 <salpynx> Have there been (significant) Rust forks resulting from some of those direction / community issues? (I have not been following)
03:41:53 <kmc> there are some alternative communities but the leadership tries their best to shut down discussion of them
03:42:03 <kmc> in large part, Rust is a redesign of C++ without the historical baggage
03:42:10 <kmc> it has the same underlying concepts as C++11
03:42:18 <kmc> of course, it already has its own historical baggage
03:42:27 <salpynx> sorry, I used 'C' lazily :)
03:42:29 <kmc> then you have the static memory safety stuff, which has no analogue in C++
03:43:39 <kmc> the leadership have been doing more and more things to piss off the community
03:43:47 <kmc> while adopting a condescending "we know what's best for you" attitude
03:43:58 <kmc> I think the odds of a substantial community schism are high
03:44:08 <salpynx> 't know if that's better) or still progam for fun?
03:44:12 <kmc> the latest is that they're shutting down IRC and moving to Discord, which a lot of people hate
03:44:19 <kmc> and the community had basically no say in this
03:44:45 <kmc> they make a big deal about their code of conduct and everything they do is supposedly to be 'friendly and welcoming' but if you don't find it friendly and welcoming, they don't want to hear about it
03:44:53 <kmc> it's just empty self-praise
03:44:58 <kmc> I don't write much code
03:45:06 <kmc> I write little programs when I need to get something done
03:45:09 <kmc> I don't code for fun
03:45:15 <kmc> and I haven't contributed to OSS in a long time
03:45:18 <kmc> which makes me really really sad
03:45:28 <kmc> because it was one of the few things I can do that has value to a lot of other people
03:45:32 <kmc> it's a force multiplier
03:45:42 <kmc> most people don't ever have an opportunity to make things that benefit potentially millions of people at zero marginal cost
03:45:46 <kmc> I did, and I can't anymore :(
03:46:01 <kmc> also OSS is very well aligned with my anarchist values
03:46:06 <kmc> that too has been ruined
03:47:19 <kmc> mostly because it's big money now
03:47:25 <kmc> but also because of the code of conduct nonsense
03:49:03 <salpynx> That is unfortunate :( Getting caught up in community politics can be draining. I do stuff with open data and got involved with wikidata, and accidentally stumbled on a community conflict early, which was very draining and a bit of storm in a teacup, but it caused me to back off
03:49:21 <salpynx> substantially and just interact via data and code
03:49:32 <kmc> maybe one day I will be able to do that
03:49:45 <kmc> i've had a rough few years tbh
03:51:42 <salpynx> sorry to hear... code can be fun (I guess that's why we're here?)
03:52:03 <kmc> code isn't really fun for me anymore
03:52:12 <kmc> talking *about* programming is still kind of interesting
03:52:15 <kmc> and i like the people here
03:52:25 <kmc> and I used to hang out here years ago in a happier (in some ways) time
03:55:43 <salpynx> yeah, seems a nice group here. Suitably quiet and low volume. I'm v. new, but feel like sticking around for a bit. The impression of history and incomprehesible in-jokes from the past gives a aura of mystique
03:56:03 <kmc> it's nice that way
03:56:12 <kmc> your nick looks familiar, I don't remember if we maybe crossed paths before?
03:56:21 * kmc offers hugs
03:57:42 <salpynx> I think I responded to some kind of retro-console coding hw or maybe gaming link you posted a while back, but I don't think we've chatted in much depth before
04:00:53 <salpynx> Thanks for your qualified opinion on Rust too, I'm glad you think it's technically a good lang. I'm solidifying my vaguer opinions accordingly
04:06:20 <kmc> salpynx: <3
04:06:27 <kmc> nice chatting with you too
04:13:28 <kmc> i got my oscilloscope set up as a network connected data logger
04:13:31 <kmc> and am testing a battery using it
04:13:33 <kmc> so that's fun
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05:02:51 <kmc> and i now even have it set up to text me
05:02:54 <kmc> if the voltage gets too low
05:02:56 <kmc> so I can end the test
05:03:04 <kmc> I do enjoy coding when it's little things like that
05:03:08 <kmc> to accomplish some other goal
05:03:11 <kmc> I do feel clever doing it
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05:28:24 <esowiki> [[Zull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63914&oldid=59444 * Voltage2007 * (-118)
05:34:24 <esowiki> [[Zull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63915&oldid=63914 * Voltage2007 * (+13) This is a pretty good joke.
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07:38:21 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63916&oldid=62458 * Voltage2007 * (+348)
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08:26:10 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63917&oldid=57869 * Voltage2007 * (+328)
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08:32:39 <esowiki> [[*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63918&oldid=63917 * Voltage2007 * (+7)
08:45:31 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63919&oldid=63867 * Voltage2007 * (+641)
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13:20:13 <esowiki> [[Zull]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63920&oldid=63915 * A * (+12)
13:23:55 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63921&oldid=63562 * A * (+12) /* Languages I made */
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15:57:48 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63922 * Areallycoolusername * (+2242) Created page with "'''Pistons & Pistons''' (hereafter used as Pi&Pi), is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]. It utilizes the Unicode Whi..."
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16:15:50 <esowiki> [[Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63923&oldid=63922 * Areallycoolusername * (+463)
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16:23:14 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
16:26:05 <b_jonas> Should we put an ugly all-uppercase disclaimer next to this?
16:26:35 <Taneb> What would it disclaim?
16:27:50 <b_jonas> warranty, liability for damages, etc
16:29:22 <b_jonas> you know, like THIS WISDOM IS DISTRIBUTED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND etc and IN NO EVENT SHALL #ESOTERIC BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
16:29:27 <b_jonas> OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH blah blah
16:30:09 <Taneb> I think maybe if we have that it should be in a separate wisdom
16:30:22 <Taneb> Like in `? wisdom, "see warranty"
16:30:30 <Taneb> And have `? warranty be along those lines
16:30:51 <b_jonas> only it's tricky, because the full disclaimer won't fit in one irc line I think
16:35:28 <HackEso> HACKEGO COMES WITHOUT WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND IS UNFIT FOR ANY PURPOSE, INCLUDING THE PURPOSE OF BEING UNFIT FOR ANYTHING. Its warranty has expired.
16:36:59 <b_jonas> but it's not the full disclaimer
16:38:26 <int-e> `slwd warrenty//s=G=[GS]=
16:38:30 <int-e> `slwd warranty//s=G=[GS]=
16:38:32 <HackEso> warranty//HACKE[GS]O COMES WITHOUT WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND IS UNFIT FOR ANY PURPOSE, INCLUDING THE PURPOSE OF BEING UNFIT FOR ANYTHING. Its warranty has expired.
16:38:55 <int-e> Sun, I'm coming for you...
16:39:53 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
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17:01:51 * ski . o O ( `(womdpw cöpse' )
17:19:09 <arseniiv> int-e: no no no not my Sun, come for another one please
17:20:13 <arseniiv> also the Sun it doesn’t exist, so you can’t come for it^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W
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17:57:03 * ski . o O ( <http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99dec/uf001320.gif> )
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19:27:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pistons & Pistons]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63924 * Salpynx * (+598) Implemented in Minecraft
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20:34:45 <zzo38> I looked at the recent change to Magic: the Gathering card "Brutal Expulsion". I would have instead written "if that permanent would die this turn".
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20:50:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Instead of Magic: the Gathering, I'm playing the computer game Slay: the Spire
20:52:18 <int-e> . o O ( https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-07-05.html#lGd )
20:53:02 <int-e> shachaf: just trying a new way of negative reinforcement here
20:53:49 <shachaf> It's still on my screen so it doesn't work.
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21:19:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pistons & Pistons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63925&oldid=63924 * Areallycoolusername * (+200)
21:23:14 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63926&oldid=63639 * Areallycoolusername * (+24) /* Full List of languages I Made */
21:24:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63927&oldid=63911 * Areallycoolusername * (+24) /* P */
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21:28:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63928 * Areallycoolusername * (+217) Created page with "== Paradox == I think this language is so simple, it seems quite complicated, thus defeating the purpose of the langauage. Many other esolangs such as Brainfuck, believe it or..."
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21:36:50 <esowiki> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63929&oldid=50807 * Voltage2007 * (+1)
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