< 1563408002 427395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did you press Alt? < 1563408016 726345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I did now. < 1563408021 188781 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later it became fake textareas that try to handle keypresses, and now it's password fields where the javascript tries to decide whether to reveal the password or not, instead of leaving that to the browser. < 1563408031 847514 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the text looks kind of blurry here. < 1563408055 374335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hmm, as far as I know it's using MSDF trickery which should allow for pretty sharp text. < 1563408097 963817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, I shouldn't use acronyms. I mean multichannel signed distance field representation of typefaces. < 1563408120 839266 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how I could get a really comparable view. It's not exactly fair to compare it to a terminal window using a bitmap font, when it comes to crispness. < 1563408177 918993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether you're using a high-DPI screen and it's rendering at a lower resolution and then the browser is scaling it up, or something. < 1563408180 318951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, custom checkboxes and option buttons too, although for those I can partially fault browsers, because there was no way to make the default check boxes and option buttons look reasonable on a dark background, and basically EVERY website forever have always overridden the background color, so it's something that browsers should have anticipated to allow < 1563408189 523662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: after review of the BSD exit code standard, I've concluded that it's better than returning errno in almost every way < 1563408205 835415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's this BSD exit code standard? can you point me to a description? < 1563408212 147651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most of the exit code reasons it envisages aren't tied to errno failures at all, and for those that are, it returns what it was doing at the time of the error rather than the immediate cause < 1563408216 150996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.manpagez.com/man/3/sysexits/ < 1563408227 501075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1563408259 669222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then, I find the BSD version is far from perfect, it's missing a lot of things that you'd want and doesn't differentiate well enough < 1563408288 402738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, e.g., exit(ENOENT) is not much useful working out what went wrong, you'd definitely prefer the sysexits code in that case < 1563408374 183164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok < 1563408386 425401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there'll always be specific programs or future needs that can't be covered by any of these standars < 1563408387 914446 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know. Probably not, it's not a huge-DPI screen; I do xrandr --dpi 104 as a compromise since there are two screens of different density. Actually, if I turn the browser scaling up to 150% the text actually looks pretty sharp (what?), although overly big. At 100% less so. < 1563408396 948458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right < 1563408408 59775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you're writing grep, what do you return if no matches were found? < 1563408423 443777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in some cases, instead of exit code handling, you want command-line flags or other config to tell the program to consider certain errors as successes < 1563408436 952309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 1 should be added as an additional exit code with a similar meaning to "no" < 1563408452 370138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hmm, I guess it wouldn't be shocking if this was an artifact of the MSDF rendering. < 1563408453 632023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is how most programs use it already < 1563408479 239301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 1 if no matches, 2 if the input files aren't readable and you haven't ignored that with -s or something, 3 if the arguments are wrong or the regex has syntax errors < 1563408491 968087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://man.openbsd.org/grep#EXIT_STATUS < 1563408500 246649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that's not a case of errno exits < 1563408513 80404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep doesn't consider failure to find an error, but exits with nonzero status anyway < 1563408515 173815 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the errno exist are useful only for quick and dirty scripts, they're not something you should use in serious programs < 1563408521 828750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for typical one-liner programs, they work < 1563408534 847690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we have a separate category of "failures" < 1563408545 724467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing went /wrong/ but the request turned out to be impossible < 1563408574 135404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, that more or less agrees with what I said, 1 for normal false, 2 for actual error < 1563408579 928973 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 or higher for actual error that is < 1563408588 584602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because sometimes you want to distinguish different errors < 1563408605 669783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, does this mean we need a variant on false(1) that returns 69 rather than 1? < 1563408605 996921 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :These days you'll probably also want the exit code equivalent of HTTP 451. < 1563408626 314868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I do understand that that clashes with errno exit, because 1 is EPERM, which is a reasonably common errno < 1563408628 130939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 77 probably covers that in the sysexits system < 1563408630 552073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a bit more general < 1563408658 125980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I can't think of many executable programs that refuse to do something because it's illegal < 1563408667 558073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only example that comes to mind is Photoshop refusing to open images of money < 1563408686 916904 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the office, there's a monitor in one corridor, it's showing a video that shows HTTP error codes as illustrated scenarios at a restaurant, or something along those lines, as far as I have managed to figure out based on three-ish glances of a second each. < 1563408708 658 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, also PDF readers that obey the "don't print this", etc., flags in the PDF file (which are just flags that can blatantly be ignored by a reader if it isn't programmed to respect them) < 1563408718 539424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: some programs didn't have rar/mp3/gif encoder compiled into them because of patent or similar legal reasons < 1563408727 622178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that count as "refusing" to do something? < 1563408731 253015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: just the 4xx codes, or all of them? :-D < 1563408745 113151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, that's a good point < 1563408749 837715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also some websites refuse to let you register if you're younger than a certain age limit < 1563408758 473597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the crypto export restrictions are another example of that < 1563408762 756114 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've seen 404 not found, 300 multiple choices and one more I don't remember, which was probably a 4xx too. < 1563408766 365460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: were, luckily < 1563408783 367213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of these, only the rar encoder limitation remain < 1563408788 401266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is totally the sort of thing that makes sense to have in a random corridor at Google :-D < 1563408797 948974 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 404 not found was an empty table, for the 300 I didn't see the actual thing, just the "title card", and for the last one there were two people sitting around the table but I forget what they were doing. < 1563408815 829908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the crypto restrictions are a real bother because it's hard to figure out what counts as crypto sometimes < 1563408816 120401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, the pdf readers! < 1563408828 376965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ebook readers and even browsers that refuse to save a video < 1563408833 303088 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I remember now! It was 418 I'm a teapot, and it wasn't two people, it was just one person, but there was a teapot on the table. < 1563408850 33172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :418 isn't the most useful status code to know :-D < 1563408862 677213 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how the scene continued, I've only been in a hurry to a meeting, should probably stop and actually watch them. < 1563408864 769168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but didn't the legal situation in the US actually change there in a way that made most of that crypto problem disappear? < 1563408873 389784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume 204 would be people ordering something, being brought an empty plate, and they left happy because it's exactly what they ordered < 1563408886 856236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's less insane than it was but the rules still exist < 1563408903 17021 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's now only restricted for countries on the naughty list < 1563408913 341447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and aren't specific to the US either, basically the old situation was insane rules in the US and slightly less insane rules elsewhere, the current situation is for the slightly less insane rules to be everywhere < 1563408918 268127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but are those rules that actually distinguish strong crypto software from software in general? < 1563408943 255094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there are still embargoes to export software to certain countries, such as North Korea or Cuba, but I don't think crypto vs non-crypto matters there < 1563408945 217875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: AFAICT the rules are mostly based on the end user's use of the software < 1563408969 52687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they wouldn't ban software with a large amount of dead code that implemented a strong crypto algorithm as long as users weren't meant to discover it < 1563408974 182755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the end users's use of the software? how the heck am I supposed to know that? < 1563408975 413431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure on this, though, not being a lawyer < 1563408983 495625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I called them insane for a reason :-P < 1563408989 12894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1563408992 76604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1563409004 771204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they intend to make things like NetHack legal even if they use strong CSPRNGs < 1563409036 336907 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do they still have rules where if you print the source code on paper, send it in mail, and scan and OCR it in Europe, it's no longer illega? < 1563409049 975082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so? besides, these rules apply to Europe too < 1563409062 151026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they /only/ applied in the US I wouldn't care, I don't plan to go there < 1563409086 977875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't plan to go there, but you may want to use software that someone in the US writes, and you want them to be able to send the software to you < 1563409108 503617 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know about https://www.google.com/teapot < 1563409124 174876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It just returns a 418 with an appropriate body.) < 1563409149 609489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think you're missing some of my inherent lawfulness; I am worried about /accidentally/ breaking crypto export laws in some piece of code I write < 1563409191 647205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but do you care about other people breaking the law when you ask them to send you software, even if you aren't breaking the law for receiving the software? < 1563409225 89367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I believe that the current US laws on crypto require you to send a copy of any crypto code to a particular email address before you're allowed to export it < 1563409243 80923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hehe, that also sounds insane < 1563409253 774585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's closed-source you need to get permission before selling it, if it's open-source you don't need the permission before distributing it but still need to send a reference to it to the official address < 1563409334 122689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't like tricking people into breaking the law, but if they don't care about the law in question and are willing to risk any consequences, and I also don't personally consider the law to be useful/good, I find it hard to get worked up about their law breach happening to work to my benefit < 1563409362 37861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok < 1563409421 401414 :MDead_!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1563409457 221084 :MDead_!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563409457 589540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, after thinking about this policy, it also probably needs adjusting for the capability for consent of the person in question < 1563409481 219352 :MDead_!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1563409482 743392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Canada have such crypto-specific export restrictions too? < 1563409502 242675 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563409545 979371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, the Wasenaar Arrangement has its own website: https://www.wassenaar.org < 1563409665 333164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's written in management speak or politician speak or some such language. I don't understand a word. < 1563409672 963621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a language switcher somewhere? < 1563409700 614483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1563409723 183774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if there is, the best you're likely to get is Hungarian politician-speak rather than English normal-person-speak < 1563409744 398617 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ucfxartyyocmprgp QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1563409864 177417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope: https://www.wassenaar.org/about-us/#faq says "The working language of the Wassenaar Arrangement is English and no official translations in other languages are provided by the Secretariat." < 1563409873 779946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's only what they call English < 1563409899 707036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, page 92 of the Wassenaar Agreement "List of Dual-Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List", the introduction to "Information Security", says "Not used since 2015" < 1563409904 924695 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though with the sitemap I can get to other pages that are slightly more readable than the front page < 1563409912 414989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the last time I checked the laws on this was from a source written before 2015 < 1563409924 432516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good < 1563409927 423231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is potentially really good news, but I'm not sure exactly what it applies to < 1563410013 369035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for my vacation in may, I read some of the airplane luggage regulations, which tell things like that I'm not allowed to put billiard clubs or throwing stars into my hand luggage < 1563410033 361452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do also tell more useful information, like about carrying batteries < 1563410134 789026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, they basically say that all the lithium batteries must be either inside a device that uses it (so that the chasis of the device protects it mechanically) or in the hand baggage and its terminals covered by isolation tape (that's not the exact wording they used, but the sense) < 1563410175 247106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sounds quite reasonable actually, provided you buy into the constraint that they really want to allow people to watch movies on their notebooks on the airplane < 1563410196 936780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the announcements on the plane also changed: < 1563410199 737815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a billiard club? the only English meaning I can think of for the noun phrase would be a club of people (or building housing such a club) that play billiards, either would be hard to fit into hand luggage < 1563410235 136161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a mistranslation from Hungarian, or something I was formerly unaware of? < 1563410305 155279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they talk a lot more about batteries, like warn people that you mustn't charge your lithium batteries during takeoff and landing, whereas they no longer care much about radio interference that your devices use (whether mobile phone protocols, wifi, bluetooth, etc; basically they recognized that with today's electronics it's no longer a practical problem, people won't use vintage equipment on the < 1563410311 161673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :airplane, but they still reserve the right to ask you to turn off your devices in exceptional cases) < 1563410335 554788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the long stick that a player uses to hit the balls in the billiard pool game < 1563410376 781076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically longer than a meter and rigid and a single peace, so it's practically impossible to get it into your hand luggage < 1563410381 232763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's called a "cue" in English < 1563410396 353342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a/peace/piece/ < 1563410398 212182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally "pool cue" or "snooker cue" because nobody plays billiards nowadays, but I guess "billiard cue" would be understandable < 1563410416 167471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they forbid it for any of the related games < 1563410465 838503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pool is probably more commonly played in both the US and UK because it's a common pub game, but snooker is more /popular/ in the UK, e.g. major snooker tournaments are televised on major channels and lots of people watch them < 1563410467 791560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can carry nail clippers though < 1563410490 352387 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, pool is the sport people play, snooker is the one they watch in television < 1563410583 975077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how in the weekend, I watched the Red Bull Air Race, where the main event is a airplane aerobatics obstacle course speed race, which is a sport that very few people practice, but much more want to look at it, so there was a crowd of spectators < 1563410602 453982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they even had a helicopter aerobatics demonstration as a side event, which is even crazier in this respect < 1563410735 413520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as for luggage rules, on the public transport buses here, I often see (on particular parts of the city) people carrying adult hockey or fencing equipment or large musical instruments, which are technically against the rules of the transport company, but nobody actually cares about those particular rules or enforces them, so they didn't bother to update the rules to match the reality < 1563410815 16882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rules also say that you mustn't eat on the buses, and that you can carry dogs either inside a box or (on a leash and with a muzzle) and only one unboxed dog per vehicle. these too are rules that people often break and they're basically never enforced. < 1563410882 344093 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's actually one dog per carriage for trams and metros < 1563410884 722617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a few occasions I've seen stray (or at least no-accompanying-owner) dogs use the UK public transport on their own < 1563410918 563636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody attempts to charge them or check their tickets, so they get a discount compared to humans < 1563410922 818344 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I haven't seen those on buses here, though I have seen dogs that follow an owner but don't much obey them < 1563410953 786917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does anyone attempt to get them off the vehicles? that sometimes happens with homeless people here < 1563410961 204938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen it often enough to know whether the dogs had any idea what they were doing, but have seen anecdotes from other people that some dogs do the same journey repeatedly and thus have worked out some method to know what stop they want < 1563410976 561440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not really, I don't think < 1563410982 394162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen it happen with dogs, because the kind of people who carry those big out of control dogs are intimidating and the controllers wouldn't want to deal with them < 1563411002 937208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in London, if someone starts begging on an Underground train, they change the electronic signs to tell people not to give them monry, that's one method of trying to get them off the vehicle < 1563411012 115971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*money < 1563411065 124476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that doesn't sound surprising, there are usually lots of clues that let you figure out where to get off if you have travelled a lot in the same location, < 1563411083 822791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :except sometimes in underground tunnels and a few confusing places < 1563411133 412882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I can usually get off at the right place even if I'm reading a book, unless the book is VERY interesting, or if it's cold and the windows are completely opaque from dew, and blind people can get off fine too < 1563411171 319454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, page 92 of the Wassenaar Agreement "List of Dual-Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List", the introduction to "Information Security", says "Not used since 2015" ← ugh, apparently it's just the specific line in question that's not used since 2015, not the entire section < 1563411172 432029 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's getting easier now that buses have gps-based trackers connected to the automatic voice announcement that *usually* get the stations right without the driver having to intervene < 1563411186 814693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, they deleted the line entirely and that's a way of saying "this line intentionally left blank" to not throw off the numbering < 1563411203 553157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah < 1563411228 297393 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing the sign when people are begging => wow, I've never seen that < 1563411321 539875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a person who's regularly in the Kálvin tér metro station, usually either in the M3 platform or in the tunnel between the M3 or M4 platforms (he can't be on the M4 platform itself because that always has guards on it because the M4 is driverless) < 1563411334 636419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's making terribly annoying noises with a fiddle < 1563411338 524810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't call it music < 1563411349 690967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish someone got him out of there or silenced him, but no < 1563411372 521040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they really do that super-consistently, at least on the stretch I'm at. < 1563411379 895586 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, he doesn't seem to be asking for money to stop making the noises, because I do often see people giving him money and he doesn't stop the noise when he gets them < 1563411398 977548 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do have a recorded announcement, though. "There are beggars and buskers operating on this train. Please do not encourage them by giving them money." < 1563411428 2002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well sure, because the people who beg know that the transport company doesn't want them to be their, so they're stealthy, they don't attract attention of the driver or controllers < 1563411459 818149 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of the times the people who do the "play one folk song during the tmie between the stations" thing go from car to car using the "danger, do not use these doors" doors. < 1563411466 352977 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I presume is for avoiding attention. < 1563411484 842404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, begging for money or selling stuff without explicit permission is also explicitly against the transport company rules, even in the metro platforms, and that is sometimes enforced < 1563411505 500789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't seem to be enforced in the case of this particular man in Kálvin tér < 1563411519 483855 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :TfL has a registered busker program, though not on the trains, just on some specifically designated locations at stations. < 1563411522 726566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the London Underground busking is allowed at specific locations in *stations*, presumably as long as you're good enough < 1563411527 125758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're circles marked on the ground < 1563411531 358907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see fizzie said that first < 1563411541 393983 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: They do auditions and all. < 1563411546 297833 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/culture-and-heritage/busking < 1563411551 386369 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As of recently.) < 1563411566 426145 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that happens here in areas that belong to the platform company, < 1563411590 215143 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1563411609 263641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but performers are allowed in some public areas like streets or underground passages that don't technically belong to the transport company but are still hubs that are very hard to avoid for many people going that way < 1563411621 30204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think even they're not allowed to be very distracting, but they are < 1563411667 338441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in at least one station in Birmingham there's a permanently installed piano, with instructions only to play it if you're sufficiently good at the piano < 1563411677 352714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one example is a certain group of people who do music with siging and shouting with some christian evangelism theme in the evenings in a part of the Keleti pu underground passage < 1563411683 586528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turned out to be a pretty simple and cheap (in a relative scale) way to give a nice variety of music for the station for free < 1563411688 516196 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been a lot written about the privatization of public space in London recently, a lot of the places with the new developments have "public" squares and the like which aren't actually public land, it's just a deal they've done to get planning permission to allow the public some level of access. < 1563411714 636991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've never seen anyone ask for money for playing it, and it tends to get played by random members of the pubilc waiting for a train) < 1563411716 403571 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the landowners still reserve the right to move "undesirable" elements out, and of course they don't list their own rules and regulations anywhere. < 1563411740 934533 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Pancras Square where our office is is one of those private-public places. < 1563411764 845363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was also an american style country music singer, with the stereotypically appropriate hat, in the Móricz underpass. I found that odd. < 1563411859 547757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess it makes some amount of sense: if we can have jazz and blues bands, why not country music singers? < 1563411903 133800 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :TfL also has a program called "Platform 88" where they've put some public pianos at stations, and anyone can sit down and play. < 1563411922 229103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, we've had some public pianos on streets. not in stations or platforms. < 1563411922 741250 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually the people that do tend to know how to play. But not always. < 1563411942 73898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well no, those pianos do attract children too to some amount < 1563411946 490984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is understandable < 1563411993 723392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we should also have children-centric buttons in public places and vehicles, where those buttons do visibly control something, such as change the pattern of some signal lights, but don't control anything actually important < 1563412009 441449 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's one in the King's Cross underground station ticket hall area, and another at the railway station, somewhere in the general vicinity of platform 9¾. < 1563412067 95447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the adults should have a conspiracy where they mostly pretend in front of the children that the buttons do something important and that the children shouldn't press the button unless the adult asks them, but in reality they also direct the children to press those buttons and enjoy doing something forbidden and pressing buttons, < 1563412071 766158 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At Granary Square, you used to be able to play Snake on the fountains with a phone app. Not sure if it's still operational. < 1563412077 877698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than pressing the actually important buttons < 1563412087 310877 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The fountain is essentially a largeish grid.) < 1563412097 423167 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should also happen in museum exhibitions and other places that children may visit < 1563412128 630723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nice < 1563412243 20715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've also seen a public space piano in the netherlands on my vacation < 1563412291 229869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's one here too near Ferenciek, and I think there are a few more somewhere elce in the center < 1563412293 847867 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep waiting for somebody to play video game music on the piano, but it never happens. < 1563412302 73346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so almost anything crypto-related that's easily user-modifiable can't be exported from either the US or the UK, unless it uses only weak crypto (56 bytes symmetric, 512 bytes when using old-fashioned common asymmetric problems), or it falls under the General Software Note < 1563412321 540679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to find another source for the General Software Note, though, because the version I'm currently using is missing indentation that makes a huge difference to the associativity of the requirements in it < 1563412328 856488 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in Finland there was a busker playing the Monkey Island theme tune in the Leppävaara train station underpass, on an unlikely instrument, I forget exactly which. < 1563412357 48016 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A melodica, possibly. < 1563412372 296271 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm < 1563412387 175979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it, this is a fairly favourable associativity < 1563412443 345913 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is silence technically video game music? < 1563412465 465111 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess? There's games with no music, or sound. < 1563412470 200832 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite in the spirit of the thing though. < 1563412476 19239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1563412502 47011 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563412516 917383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any software is legal, at least based on crypto-export-related requirements, if it's either sold unrestricted to all-comers (i.e. anyone can just buy it without being vetted, etc.) and "Designed for installation by the user without further substantial support by the supplier"; or else "in the public domain" < 1563412539 32651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the "in the public domain" here is using a weird restriction that allows it to be copyrighted as long as there are no restrictions on its further dissemination < 1563412556 934754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess CC0 is OK, and BSD and GPL are in a grey area < 1563412565 975652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, that's interesting < 1563412572 403761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*using a weird definition < 1563412674 291035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like an excuse that the companies that sell industry software can use about their abysmal lack of designing anything with security in mind, since they sell software that doesn't match those conditions < 1563412724 572318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does this apply if you export software from th UK to within the EU? < 1563412741 871875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1563412746 466454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1563412760 677579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they can't use that excuse then < 1563412760 778065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, I think there may be more lenience, up to automatic export-is-allowed, for within-EU exports < 1563412775 461096 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least it's harder < 1563412812 788093 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have to argue that they can't make sure that customers don't use the EU-only secure version of their software in asia < 1563412831 616232 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's still a reasonable excuse < 1563412849 874923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean as much as the whole thing is < 1563412876 434088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just an excuse, their design does actually suck < 1563412890 375219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it looks like within-EU follows different rules which are much more liberal without being completely free; for exports that would otherwise be controlled, you can get a license valid for export to Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland, and the US fairly eaily; for other countries you need specific authorisation < 1563412916 666165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1563412963 404132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wekk we do reexport the industry software to korea, so that doesn't sound enough < 1563412978 643567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as well as to EU countries) < 1563413012 845576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/wekk/well/ < 1563413177 252740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, one potential issue I noticed was that there's an explicit list of countries where you can't apply for the specific authorisation, it includes all the EU countries listed individually (presumably because you already have a blanket authorisation) < 1563413217 645072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when Brexit hits, if they forget to adjust the law and the EU blanket authorisation stops applying to the UK, then the rest of the EU will end up in the same status as Iran and North Korea (i.e. you can't even attempt to apply for a license) < 1563413270 350715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, that sort of thing always happens whenever some autonomous region in the balkan or the caucasus gradually converts into a country, they get into country lists too late < 1563413327 160547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're reminding me of the running joke that Berwick-upon-Tweed was at war with Russia until 1966 < 1563413336 372048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when they explicitly signed a peace treaty, just in case) < 1563413351 682594 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly those are generally places not recommended for tourists, so if an insurance company doesn't add it to the list of countries with Europe rate, it could be a feature < 1563413401 101527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue being that it was in disputed territory between England and Scotland and thus occasionally listed explicitly when announcements were made, and the announcement that started the Crimean War did so but the announcement that ended it didn't < 1563413430 664266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1563413447 744372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are several reasons why this can't possibly be true, but it made for a fun publicity stunt) < 1563413459 69161 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, those happen too < 1563413497 878884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that definitely aren't a country on their own, but are disupted between countries, and the people far away don't want to make it seem like they politically support any country's claim on the area < 1563413517 521426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ancient Rome and Ancient Carthage never signed a peace treaty after the Romans seized and completely destroyed the city of Carthage in 146 BC and enslaved its entire surviving population, leaving no entity with which to make peace. In 1985 the mayors of modern Rome and Carthage municipality signed a peace treaty and accompanying pact of friendship. < 1563413532 404199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…that's a really interesting legal problem < 1563413536 551712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's several of those between Israel and Palestine, possibly nested < 1563413650 500132 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so basically Carthage was disbanded without a legal successor? < 1563413659 204283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, it was completely destroyed by the Romans < 1563413682 260449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have this permanent war of the Roman Empire against, effectively, a null set < 1563413694 132813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1563413704 510225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably the establishment of a new city in the location of Carthage would be a separate nation altogether, unable to do anything about the previous war < 1563413713 724304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and of course, modern-day Rome is not part of the Roman Empire either) < 1563413761 311819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it can happen that there are multiple different groups of people who claim that they're the worthy successors, such as basically everyone in europe for the roman empire, and you can't regard any of them as the successor without insulting all the others < 1563413790 568976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could happen with a country if they were in war with Atlantis or Numenor when it got destroyed < 1563413813 64286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets particularly ugly with churches < 1563413818 272948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was fairly well established that the Roman Empire split into two parts, the western part was entirely overrun and ceased to exist as an entity, the eastern part held out longer but was eventually conquered by the Ottomans < 1563413835 220126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but the Eastern Roman Empire didn't control Rome) < 1563413845 865101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but who is the worthy successor of the western empire? < 1563413851 580282 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that one place on a border which is anti-disputed in the sense that neither side wants it. < 1563413853 979756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also split to two, then to three, then to much more < 1563413858 188561 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's two potential borders, and there's a bigger and better chunk of land that's in actual dispute, but the way the borders go, if you claim that good bit you can't claim the other bit. < 1563413863 131886 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil < 1563413870 807188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and several parts in europe claimed to be the one true roman emperor < 1563413874 164036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think "successor" makes sense when it comes to countries < 1563413880 640273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if the boundaries are different < 1563413888 147737 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how about for thrones? < 1563413907 604084 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and even more claimed to be liege to one of those successors) < 1563414013 148934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the laws of succession for the Roman Emperor weren't really well-defined, I don't think < 1563414016 892149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given how often they got assassinated < 1563414030 569726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, as for that, there's country top level domain names. .cs and .yu were both eventually deleted some time after the country it was assigned to got split up. < 1563414040 154385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking the job went to anyone who was capable of convincing sufficiently many important people that they held or should hold it < 1563414065 433308 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1563414065 755659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so from a philosophical sense, either nobody is the rightful Roman Emperor, or everyone is < 1563414069 513703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :deleting a country top level domain that is in use seems totally stupid to me from a technical standpoint < 1563414075 809414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there can be lots of references to it < 1563414106 323190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this actually suggest that if you register domains, it's usually better to register them under a generic domain, because that won't go away for stupid political reasons < 1563414111 930997 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're currently on terra nullius, do you get a NullPointerException from Locale.getDefault().toString()? < 1563414132 156587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously for some country-level domains like .hu this is obvious anyway because the country top level domain has stupid registration rules anyway < 1563414136 572171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some it might not be < 1563414168 55425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though of course you can register domains under country top level domains to redirect to your generic domain, for findability < 1563414181 149719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how google and amazon buy google.* and amazon.* for every top level domain name < 1563414182 489263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some domain registrars have warnings when buying .tv domains because global warming is threatening the entire territory of Tuvalu < 1563414201 978197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could cause major disruption because it's one of the most popular ccTLDs < 1563414206 991216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "buying"? haven't they been giving them away for free? ah no wait, that was .tk domains. < 1563414213 277530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: true < 1563414229 942099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, the situation with TLDs nowadays is complete chaos < 1563414266 544789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, being roman emperor didn't even start out to be hereditary, even in pretense. that came only later. < 1563414281 848525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. < 1563414310 227052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what makes it worse is that all the shortest top level domain names are country ones < 1563414333 924686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :emperor wasn't originally even an official position, really, just a de facto description for someone who held all the power < 1563414343 678341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1563414368 155992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the Roman Empire has no power, thus everyone individually holds all of it, thus everyone is the Roman Emperor < 1563414384 333556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet the position and legitimacy recursively derived from it (by liege and successor relations) later became pretty important < 1563414419 52969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Communications in Tuvalu rely on satellite dishes for telephone and internet access. The available bandwidth is only 512 kbit/s uplink, and 1.5 Mbit/s downlink. ← that's a good argument for them selling their domain name, it's not like they could host much locally with that sort of Internet connection < 1563414492 321827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the roman emperor itself doesn't have power, but being european royalty does have some power, in the sense that royalty can marry other royalty much easier without getting excluded from their dynasty, and I have the impression that being royalty is a claim that's basically derived from being a worthy successor of the roman emperor or a close liege of one < 1563414528 561449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but they don't have to host the domain name servers in the island, do they? they can buy a server abroad < 1563414544 770705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple servers obviously, for redundancy < 1563414596 190505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Australia used to be infamous of having really bad internet connectivity to the largest component of Earth, but I don't know if that's still true < 1563414659 364267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it'd make sense for them to host their domains abroad using their own TLD < 1563414691 303322 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I hope that eventually people get to live outside earth on other planets, in which case we'll have a problem of huge latency in the connections, which won't be fixed even when throughput is increased to good enough, and that will require to improve a lot of internet protocols and infrastructure in difficult ways but often in directions that I like < 1563414764 770199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the good part is that webpages won't be able to use all that stupid interactive javascript that tries to phone the server home whenever you scroll to the next page; < 1563414786 617502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bad part is that it needs a lot of caching on separate planets, which is hard to combine with effective end-to-end cryptography < 1563414819 620117 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also we'll need an incompatible change to the semantics of IRC that allows non-tree topologies < 1563414823 812761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without separate planets this is still a useful infrastructure to think of, for use with things like IPoAC < 1563414865 371238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: technically it can matter even for the moon, but I don't think we'll have people live there before they live on other planets < 1563414865 404332 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think IRC would be a good communication medium for a situation where no realtime communication was possible, something like a mailing list would work better < 1563414891 581948 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think something close to IRC but without the tree requirement could work < 1563414899 420408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Moon is much easier to reach than Mars is and doesn't seem that much harder to inhabit? < 1563414916 416141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'd expect it to be the first natural extraterrestrial body to be inhabited < 1563414925 824353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the International Space Station is inhabited and extraterrestrial, but not natural) < 1563414935 223965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the relay part makes sense, because it allows you to transport each message only once between planets as long as there's a server on each planet, even if multiple people on the planet are going to read the message, and you might not even be able to tell who'll read it when it's sent < 1563414949 363946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're basically describing Usenet at this point < 1563414958 24142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, to be honest, is probably a pretty good technology for something like this < 1563414975 83486 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it does seem harder to inhabit for longer term. it might be easier for just a very few people to spend a few months in a research station. < 1563414976 236559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when it was invented, latencies were often very large < 1563415043 170698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, I'm just more familiar with IRC than usenet. I heared that people used email before the internet and continuous connectivity, with servers only occasionally calling each other, and I've no clue how that could possibly have worked, it sounds like throwing a message to the sea in a bottle and hoping it arrives < 1563415070 923858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bang paths < 1563415073 475739 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I admit I also don't understand how routing on the current internet could possibly work, it also sounds about as impossible to me, yet by experience it works most of the time. < 1563415087 245069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :email addresses weren't a single, fixed thing at the time < 1563415096 586278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of a domain name, you wrote a list of servers to relay the message via < 1563415119 475503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the names were much simpler, often a few letters, because they were local hostname lookups on the server before rather than being global domain names) < 1563415146 833098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many published email addresses from the time started vax! because "vax" was a fairly famous server that most people knew how to reach < 1563415189 893954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays, of course, servers that relay any email they see are incredibly rare because they tend to get exploited by spammers, but back then it was very common to relay any email you came across in order to get it closer to its destination, few people were abusing it < 1563415197 479794 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the plus side, this has left the good heritage to email, where even though now email practically always goes in at most three hops, from client to sender server to receiving server to client, but it still works if the clients are only occasionally connected, and the servers are only connected most of the time (so that there is often a time when both are connected at the same time) < 1563415286 814011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, so now the "direct" tcp connection between the two servers all happens magically behind the scenes by routing, which I still don't understand < 1563415314 818951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, good night < 1563415316 270492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-29.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1563415610 867811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1563415872 991150 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm playing with PCjs some more. Turns out that getting the chipset all set up correctly without the BIOS is a big challenge. < 1563415898 986665 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the problem is pretty much the perennial problem: I'm not getting any interrupts from the interrupt controller. < 1563416014 66360 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've determined that this is because the interrupt controller's interrupt request register contains 6, indicating that it's aware of interrupt requests numbered 1 and 2; and because of this, any *new* interrupt requests numbered 1 and 2 are being ignored. < 1563416151 695200 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :In real systems, what happens is that since the interrupt controller has interrupt requests, it signals an interrupt to the CPU; then the CPU signals an acknowledgement to the interrupt controller; then this causes the interrupt controller to clear the corresponding bit in the interrupt request register. < 1563416498 846851 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it looks like the way that the emulator simulates this is, the interrupt controller calls the updateINTR method on the CPU, which sets the CPU's INTR flag. But the interrupt controller isn't doing that since it's not receiving any *new* interrupt requests. < 1563416832 204377 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh shit. < 1563416889 56149 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, here's what I knew a minute ago. In order to acknowledge an interrupt, you have to write a 20h to port 20h. < 1563416899 594873 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assembly I was using for that was: < 1563416900 296611 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov ah, 20; out 20, al; < 1563416919 980311 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :In words: "Load the byte 20h into register AH, then output the contents of register AL to port 20h." < 1563416924 135599 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone see the problem?... < 1563418309 629348 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was accidentally loading the immediate byte into the wrong register. < 1563418319 434701 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :All righty, all is fixed now. < 1563420716 77932 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right, sweet, I've successfully made something that takes keyboard input and writes corresponding output to the screen. < 1563420753 341004 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for the big challenge: making it so that the characters typed *are* the characters displayed on the screen rather than merely having some vague relationship. > 1563421237 844593 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64537&oldid=64530 5* 03A 5* (-4164) 10/* Char language */ Now that Char has a separate page, I will add my recent ideas here. > 1563421730 714723 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64538&oldid=64537 5* 03A 5* (+889) 10/* Hey stack! */ Work in progress. +Example < 1563421910 169838 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also... make it so that stuff shows up on the screen immediately instead of not showing up until you hit the "Halt" button on the emulator. < 1563421917 875231 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I had that problem before and I figured out how to fix it. < 1563421922 77239 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vxonmuimljvqcvdw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how I fixed it. > 1563421997 660818 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64539&oldid=64538 5* 03A 5* (+360) 10/* Hey stack! */ + a lot of syntactic sugar > 1563422064 691306 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64540&oldid=64539 5* 03A 5* (+126) 10/* Hey stack! */ < 1563422406 630977 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1563422476 931518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64541&oldid=64540 5* 03A 5* (+426) 10/* Hey stack! */ MTC > 1563422740 462521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64542&oldid=64541 5* 03A 5* (+57) 10/* Description of Conway's Cellular Automaton in Hey stack! */ > 1563422781 110304 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64543&oldid=64542 5* 03A 5* (+65) 10/* Hey stack! */ > 1563422969 164076 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64544&oldid=64543 5* 03A 5* (-105) 10/* Hey stack! */ > 1563423009 712253 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64545&oldid=64544 5* 03A 5* (+36) 10/* Example: Greeting an array-based stack(simply an array+cursor) with length 5 with a finite length before you use it */ > 1563423437 298731 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64546&oldid=64545 5* 03A 5* (+66) 10/* Hey stack! */ > 1563423698 646153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64547&oldid=64546 5* 03A 5* (+261) 10/* Hey stack! */ > 1563424050 683102 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64548&oldid=64547 5* 03A 5* (+148) 10/* Quick reference of a nice little golfing language */ > 1563424211 228484 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64549&oldid=64548 5* 03A 5* (+147) 10/* DO()/UNTIL()/END() */ < 1563425256 503924 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1563426585 219162 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1563429096 82225 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563429316 643186 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds > 1563429523 187238 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64550&oldid=64549 5* 03A 5* (-2015) 10/* Quick reference of a nice little golfing language */ Terrible Solutions for Code Golf problems < 1563430002 517394 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1563433182 500453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64551&oldid=64550 5* 03A 5* (+129) 10/* Quick reference of a nice little golfing language */ < 1563434459 896339 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1563434628 567382 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563435494 458987 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563435515 659806 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zncbvxenpygwmjiy JOIN :#esoteric < 1563436197 565081 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. < 1563436246 587920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome cpressey < 1563436247 730900 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1563436311 789063 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm familiar with this channel, thanks though. < 1563436356 715735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you familiar with the tradition of misusing `welcome? < 1563436388 832974 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not all that great a tradition now that I think of it.) < 1563436514 5493 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm not familiar with that tradition. Perhaps a few words about it should be added to the `welcome message, to help introduce it to newcomers. < 1563436549 328244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea. < 1563436582 662721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cpressey < 1563436583 772333 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse. < 1563436599 520432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second only to Taneb in inventiveness. < 1563436846 504548 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all that inventive anymore. Actually, I dunno. It's mostly that I don't have as much time as I'd like, to actually build out the ideas I have. < 1563436990 320541 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bring good news, though: apparently it's recently been established that, if P != NP, then all instances of CSP are either in P, or are NP-complete. < 1563437025 960082 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :( https://mathoverflow.net/a/322335 ) < 1563437231 133542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1563437246 462175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ci < 1563437247 526724 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb. < 1563437251 108574 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ this one is no longer true < 1563437280 663410 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're no longer secret? < 1563437296 86699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they are no longer bent to use puzzles: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=173108#173108 < 1563437299 566679 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CIs? < 1563437353 871665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` perl -pi -e 's/ and unsolvable puzzles//; warn$_' wisdom/ci # http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?p=173108#173108 < 1563437355 530892 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics. They invented Taneb. < 1563437430 840293 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: fancy < 1563437729 836111 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does indeed sound fancy < 1563437735 489453 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1563437914 55118 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-35.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1563438106 494535 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8509:72b:e1b3:719e QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1563438367 752569 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1563438454 548919 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563438592 754819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i this is also true if P = NP < 1563438611 747499 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-121.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563438621 434481 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563438658 126484 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1563439498 232253 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I thought that when I read it too but now I'm not so sure. The proof relies on the assumption that P!=NP (as does Ladner's theorem that NPI exists at all). < 1563439571 252577 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., maybe P=NP but there are instances of CSP that are not even in NP. < 1563439572 870582 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's false if P = NP and there's a CSP not in P or NP < 1563439577 922430 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(snap) < 1563439612 279224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm, probably I don't actually know what CSP is then. < 1563439613 405526 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) I don't know CSP well enough to know if an instance of CSP not even in NP ought to be surprising or not. < 1563439627 313133 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's at least as surprising as P=NP < 1563439738 542384 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if P=NP, is everything in P "NP-complete"?) < 1563439771 750401 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pretty good intro to CSP that I also found recently: https://web.archive.org/web/20180214194125/https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~sgc/teaching/pre2012/v231/lecture15.html < 1563439787 271380 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and was apparently taken down even more recently, thus the wayback machine) < 1563439887 881202 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: if P=NP then P-complete=NP-complete but... I'm sure there are problems in P that aren't P-complete? < 1563439908 82375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Based on 15.1 I'm confusil on how this isn't in NP. < 1563439928 315720 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: given an oracle to a problem in P one can solve any other problem in P in polynomial time < 1563439937 728260 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am using the word "sure" very loosely, above) < 1563439948 732165 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was my understanding of "-complete" < 1563439988 281163 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would imagine P-complete would use a different reduction. < 1563441033 49588 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, yes, from what I see (from 15.1 and from some web searching), CSP is NP-complete. So, on the face of it, yes, it looks like you could make a stronger claim than in that mathoverflow answer: that all instances of CSP are in P or are NP-complete. < 1563441218 25256 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they were using "or" in the colloquial exclusive sense. < 1563441312 62098 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started reading a book about SAT. < 1563442155 48356 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563442232 430333 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, if P=NP then every P problem is NP-complete, even the most trivial one, because we define NP-completeness using a P powered reduction < 1563442252 541017 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :P-completeness is trickier, that one is defined with more restricted reductions < 1563442268 954267 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see, Taneb already said that < 1563443337 678571 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Taneb: I think I follow you and I can't disagree. I find it hard to swallow the implications of that, but I already find it hard to swallow the implications of P=NP I guess, so I guess that doesn't change anything. < 1563443362 74801 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zncbvxenpygwmjiy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1563443383 853084 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's more like, if P=NP, then P-reductions seem almost meaningless < 1563443439 690002 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I don't think P=NP either. < 1563446013 585278 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To relate this all back to esolang (kind of), CSP without bounds on the variables values is Turing-complete. I don't remember where I read that though, I thought it was in that tutorial but can't find it now. < 1563446268 942968 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would make sense though, because it's basically just constraint programming at that point. < 1563446428 250820 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1563446614 531734 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563446822 528566 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1563447259 885577 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: can it simulate diophantine equations? < 1563447519 749524 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, it can. Yes, I thought of that too :) < 1563447607 463489 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1563447720 560967 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563448084 291093 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phase transition in random 3SAT: Empirically, there seems to be a constant k such that random 3SAT instances are satisfiable iff their clause/variable ratio is smaller than k, and k seems to be around 4.27. < 1563448167 381549 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that's not surprising < 1563448185 364983 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you have to define the distribution of that "random 3SAT" precisely before you can claim that < 1563448266 715836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. There are a few ways to define it but it seems pretty straightforward. < 1563448272 66371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it not surprising? < 1563448372 970295 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems a bit surprising to me, the `iff` part especially < 1563448380 136989 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No exceptions? < 1563448385 524420 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe it is partly surprising depending on what the distribution is like, because if you do it differently, you'll need an asymptotic more like clause**2/variable or something < 1563448404 816112 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: welcome to randomness < 1563448405 196650 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not surprising that there's a phase transition if you count the clauses in the right way < 1563448419 967375 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like all those random percolation things < 1563448421 478519 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: oh, right, right < 1563448435 268034 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, obviously you can construct cases that have more clauses and are satisfiable < 1563448443 648435 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just repeat some indefinitely < 1563448454 960280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, I didn't mean "iff" in a logical sense. < 1563448481 767165 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only that the probability is low below the threshold and high above it, and the phase transition becomes sharper as the number of variables increases. < 1563448504 230324 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprisingness diminishing < 1563448510 792906 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the iff is in a logical sense, but you need a limit to large number of variables and an almost always in there < 1563448627 348638 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I agree with cpressey, it's hard to be surprised by phase transitions like this after I've grown up among the crazy probability theorists here that keep studying problems like that < 1563448736 630280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also such a constant for 2SAT, with k=1 < 1563448780 901088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm now remembering that someone told me about a similar phase transition in random graphs which is probably related. < 1563448834 995238 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1563448835 467828 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, there are many such theorems. for random graphs too, but also for various regular grids with each edge deleted independently with a probability < 1563448855 166572 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563448871 291938 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1563448879 190290 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some cases the phase transfer parameter is a nice round number because of some symmetry argument, in other cases it's just some odd constant that you can't connect to other numbers < 1563456076 396343 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi folks, have a nice day! < 1563456100 556331 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wanted to say something but I don’t have anything interesting) < 1563456122 333839 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1563456138 509588 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'day all < 1563456692 500925 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi arseniiv < 1563456709 769370 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: hello! < 1563456781 18211 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no IOCCC source code yet :-( < 1563456794 983088 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll get here when it gets here < 1563456829 389374 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :before or after the CALESYTA results? < 1563456837 585667 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for me to say < 1563456855 776212 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-174-123-42.range86-174.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1563457570 754914 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ioccc < 1563457573 51016 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The IOCCC is the Industrial Ordovician COBOL Conference Circuit. Not to be confused with OIC. See also ioccclist. < 1563457583 598068 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? oic < 1563457584 715368 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :OIC, OIC means Oh I see. < 1563457594 578990 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563457754 254685 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1563457754 316341 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1563457775 459608 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1563457826 323239 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hf < 1563457827 322067 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563458607 522434 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv < 1563458620 262538 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? high life < 1563458621 291017 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :high life? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563458626 160009 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? life < 1563458627 226014 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’ < 1563458634 512898 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? low life < 1563458635 505747 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :low life? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563458644 494113 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? file < 1563458648 31132 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :file? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563458693 159720 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? vacuum < 1563458694 278186 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vacuum? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563458699 779544 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? file < 1563458700 836315 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :file? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563458738 569849 :user24!~user24@p2E50C34D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563458759 622774 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we have https://esolangs.org/wiki/Game_of_Life at least. no specific article for high life. < 1563458868 203836 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.236.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563459003 254023 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.24.206.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563460810 106060 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563460960 193803 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.236.35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563461608 526183 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1563461678 446566 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563462714 701033 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I read over a gentle(ish) description of Ladner's NP-intermediate construction, and it's totally reasonable to me that you couldn't write it as a CSP. < 1563462719 510225 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pathological af < 1563462734 816993 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the kids say < 1563462749 648638 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1563463086 463247 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563463314 593245 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1563463586 569619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The CSP result feels a bit like the n-SAT dichotomy, in that you have a parameterized family of problem classes, and you can separate them into P-solvable and NP-complete based on the choice of parameter. It's far more interesting and much harder than the n-SAT case though. (For n-SAT I mean: 0-SAT, 1-SAT, and 2-SAT are in P; 3-SAT and beyond are NP-complete.) < 1563463771 564464 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feels a bit like that, yes. < 1563463772 629309 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1563463779 49642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you have a pointer to that "gentle(ish) description"? < 1563463844 316524 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://iccl.inf.tu-dresden.de/w/images/a/ab/CT2017-Lecture-14-overlay.pdf < 1563463846 525668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think I like the notion of 0-SAT. It's not even P-complete.) < 1563463872 180222 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid I have to take off now but I'll try to pop in tomorrow too. < 1563463875 802394 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.4 < 1563464254 219537 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563464440 466584 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1563464931 520776 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qglmaxgxvfenzrfa JOIN :#esoteric < 1563465904 492832 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563466077 51441 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563466281 503132 :user24!~user24@p2E50C34D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1563468578 393118 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1563468602 467858 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563469751 206395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1563469766 318280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` wisdom; quote < 1563469767 249582 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​damnation//The Damnation was an evil empire of yore, until the dam no longer held and they got flooded. \ 279) i actually do like sucking < 1563470399 280401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` wisdom; quote < 1563470400 115503 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​luftballon//A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and starting wars between their enemies. \ 662) oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? fizzie: +47 oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. I... guess you are geographically, too. < 1563470510 819424 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1563470818 136853 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1563471966 238521 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzrmkmnozeztkpvq QUIT :Ping timeout: 257 seconds < 1563472026 602946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` wisdom; quote < 1563472027 443376 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​outstanding//Outstanding is when someone is upright in an outdoors position, as in "That scarecrow is outstanding in his field". \ 386) * Sgeo is risking massive forest fires The bacon is worth it < 1563472031 914945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? vacuum tube < 1563472032 968281 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way. < 1563472107 636309 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dxjvumrgidsoexry JOIN :#esoteric < 1563472926 88878 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563473257 229881 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563473298 483334 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1563473430 390071 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1563474333 882686 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563474424 119216 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tube one is pretty eso < 1563474526 213461 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563474531 152297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tube < 1563474532 196399 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tube? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563475625 122988 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563475826 862655 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1563475860 715902 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qglmaxgxvfenzrfa QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1563476392 361020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forget 386 < 1563476392 934759 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm: cannot remove 'wisdom/386': No such file or directory < 1563477459 555869 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? i386 < 1563477460 758170 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i386? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563477467 255658 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? x86 < 1563477468 257580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563477473 177457 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? 0x86 < 1563477474 188664 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x86? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563477478 957481 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whyy < 1563477505 141413 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563477594 781693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 386 < 1563477596 619165 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* * Sgeo is risking massive forest fires The bacon is worth it < 1563477599 177820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thar one. < 1563477601 751966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1563477678 567922 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563477689 473133 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1563477757 831472 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1563477799 863479 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if oiseau is "wazo" then is oieau "wao"? < 1563480895 443507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oren! < 1563481166 42406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-86.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: you haven't been in here for a while. is everything all right? < 1563484685 178647 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebecca black's 22nd birthday was on a Friday last month and i missed the opportunity to tweet about it. y'know, to make people feel old < 1563484734 584373 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would one be old if rebecca black is 22 < 1563484737 798664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's that < 1563485082 490663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've now read the wikipedia page. I'd like to reiterate my question. < 1563485569 487671 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1563485634 914279 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563485670 600298 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-orfqolrvkxyhaggx JOIN :#esoteric < 1563485855 522270 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :one would not be old but one might feel old if 2011 feels like yesterday < 1563486018 494002 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: you missed the point. you need to pick some event or person that people can actually relate to. :P < 1563486640 761877 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cubehelix article publication date? < 1563486671 778130 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I’m not sure if it was 80s, 90s or 00s < 1563486697 506029 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its webpage looks 90’ish < 1563486785 396115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though again who am I to know it, I didn’t see what it was then in the internets, I started crawling them in ≈2007 < 1563487207 251231 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563487394 99417 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1563487968 464283 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563488113 207645 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563490113 344216 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563490294 376541 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1563490447 757387 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563490498 82056 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1563490578 309038 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563493149 827339 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1563494313 872403 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric