< 1563580803 338888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1563580817 490836 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we use rules of thumb and generous margins < 1563580822 581361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that, and partial cable breaks (which also have locally higher resistance) < 1563580903 262700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reminded of the ingenuity of halogen light bulbs. < 1563580924 35581 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1563580982 423103 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I love those, despite all the problems they cause < 1563580991 70385 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> For these reasons, the USB-IF has established USB Type-C™ Authentication (C-AUTH)—a means for authenticating devices and thereby protecting against data tampering and illicit use. The USB PD standard implements C-AUTH through use of a public key infrastructure (PKI) which is a time-proven approach in the Internet world. We will not go into details of PKI implementation here; we will simply note that < 1563580994 660217 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:18: error: parse error on input ‘,’ < 1563580997 78258 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-AUTH starts when an initiator (laptops, tablets, etc.) reads out a certificate chain from a responder (cable, AC adapter, etc.). Notice that the process can cover the cables as well as the sources and sinks, allowing for systems to be configured at a high level of safety. < 1563581001 168968 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that does sound pretty proprietary < 1563581009 278670 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2019 and your power cables are performing cryptographic authentication < 1563581009 952281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they burn out more easily than traditional bulbs if the lamp is shaking, and use a higher temperature so you have to be careful with what socket you put them into < 1563581033 537590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Light bulbs are, of course, little wires, which are uneven. So they have a pretty awful feedback loop: as they get hotter, the metal evaprates, making the wire thinner, hence hotter.) In halogen bulbs, the wire is covered with a compound of tungsten and some halogen, that breaks down when it gets too hot, depositing metal on the wire, fixing it (for a while)... < 1563581050 286190 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can operate reliably at higher temperatures than ordinary lightbulbs. < 1563581075 26158 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1563581078 458260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Don't necessarily trust me on the details, I'm working from memory here.) < 1563581080 197587 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah thermal runaway is a problem < 1563581087 527892 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also occurs in bipolar junction transistors < 1563581185 821184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: right, that's why the wire is made of tungsten in traditional bulbs, because it keeps well in high temperatures < 1563581249 99409 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that the one where they managed to pull in fucking ASN.1? < 1563581266 490622 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. in the search for security they have, I am confident, guaranteed more vulnerabilities. < 1563581319 636462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm curious as to why people hate ASN.1 so much < 1563581325 575773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the concept, or just the details? < 1563581350 896322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm reminded of me complaining about Language Server Protocol a while back; I love the idea and hate at least most of the details) < 1563581351 866917 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the details. < 1563581387 218719 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more-or-less protobuf, except defined in the 80s by telecom engineers. < 1563581456 244037 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also isn't a single serialization format, it's _several_. < 1563581472 938356 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because implementations are notoriously bad < 1563581492 578493 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but then, the formats are pretty tricky to implement < 1563581500 382472 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1563581502 658751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't protocol buffers that awful thing where you can supply data fields in an arbitrary order, and even several times? This is just begging to be used to exfiltrate data... < 1563581507 842813 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of impossible to implement protocols < 1563581517 39595 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my new phone seems to be at least *better* at bluetooth < 1563581528 801137 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it can play to my speaker without skipping < 1563581572 299751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main criticism about ASN.1 that I've heard is that it's, apparently, awfully complex. I have never really delved into it. < 1563581609 488087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hikhq < 1563581619 474158 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It is awfully complex. < 1563581623 2162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? portello < 1563581624 46192 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :portello? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1563581657 978615 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's designed by telecom engineers, and the assumption is there would be a very small handful of vetted implementations everything would use. < 1563581720 710370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably this predates the current explosion of programming languages? < 1563581733 396340 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1984, so yes. < 1563581764 791015 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice, ASN.1 seems to get people doing hack implementations of the subset of whatever encoding format their particular application absolutely forces them to implement. < 1563581765 949372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think there were still quite a few languages around at that time < 1563581796 716587 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many of them were used by telecoms people? < 1563581844 860540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea, I can't think of /any/ offhand < 1563581861 828555 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm 1984 is too early for Erlang < 1563581865 661915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when does Erlang date from? it would have been appropriate if it existed at the time < 1563581872 141718 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :1986 < 1563581882 415151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just looked that up) < 1563581885 288688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so did I < 1563581934 600677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the first Erlang implementation was written by a telecom company in Prolog < 1563581944 436900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least one telecom company was presumably using Prolog in 1984 < 1563581958 577002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they subsequently had to abandon that impl because it was too slow; if they were using a general Prolog, I'm not surprised) < 1563581961 103194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLEX_(programming_language) is a thing < 1563581965 386665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also Ericson. Funny.) < 1563581965 869771 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE < 1563581968 799087 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang: The Movie < 1563581977 506980 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ericsson < 1563581988 211407 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP Joe Armstrong :( < 1563582224 269518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is **bolded text** in Markdown semantically or ? does it need some way to indicate both tags? < 1563582309 760798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, MDN's description of when to use over doesn't convince me, I would use in those cases < 1563582357 33233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, *italic text* in Markdown is nearly always used for not < 1563582421 753409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the semantic difference between and is fairly easy to understand once you know it: is audible when spoken, isn't) < 1563582432 330560 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1563582552 333112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you use for things like foreign words, terms you're defining, and the like; and to indicate words which are stressed more than their position in the sentence would normally imply < 1563582582 38610 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are CSS attributes for spoken pages, right? < 1563582586 328051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1563582670 713063 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"terms you're defining" -- I think I *would* stress them when reading definitions out loud. < 1563582702 968588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe is correct for those then < 1563582732 212412 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also sometimes you may be using a program without CSS to view, and some don't include any CSS attributes for speech even if they are for otherwise. < 1563582803 85435 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think someone mentioned CSS has commands to check if it is interlace or progressive video, but such thing does not seem to me it would belong for CSS; but the command to check for mono or colour seem like useful. < 1563582858 242925 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting one < 1563582866 850526 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps there are some animations that would not look right with interlacing < 1563582870 990142 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps it's just for completeness sake < 1563582875 23724 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you detect the display refresh rate? < 1563582910 766848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/update-frequency < 1563582914 408916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently only qualitatively < 1563582915 703412 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about the color depth < 1563582955 641717 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's cool < 1563582970 829924 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you have a choice there: bits-per-channel, color gamut, or absolute number of colors < 1563582979 652746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the latter's for paletted devices) < 1563582990 182943 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is CSS always sRGB < 1563583064 346120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports "rgb", "rgba", "hsl", "hsla", it doesn't appear to list a color space? < 1563583069 785229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it so much when programs do that < 1563583083 378498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even wrote a blog post about it: http://nethack4.org/blog/gamma.html < 1563583085 178517 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/light-level ... wow < 1563583105 960218 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For videos, it seem to me that whether it is interlace or progressive, and refresh rate, and so on, would be part of the video selection and not relevant for CSS, I should think. < 1563583121 619884 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a command in CSS to select a colour by index number rather than by RGB? < 1563583128 190164 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's interesting int-e < 1563583131 327652 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most phone can sense that < 1563583133 462887 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if they use it < 1563583140 698489 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This code will likely not work on any devices (device compatablility is low)." < 1563583143 744106 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1563583149 937358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to quote that too :-) < 1563583153 972519 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I guess it's a draft < 1563583175 945519 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for indexed colour displays, it would be useful to ensure the colours are different from each other, since otherwise it might use the same colour for many things since it is the closest colour) < 1563583213 359504 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, can any web browser have option to pretend to have a slower update frequency than it actually does? < 1563583257 4574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be easy enough to implement that < 1563583266 440850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think many people would use it, except possibly for testing < 1563583295 513636 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the ambient light thing it actually suggests that browsers should have controls to set it manually < 1563583298 504242 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for accessibility < 1563583385 527332 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like modern CSS allows you to explicitly specify a colorspace for color values, but it's with a special uncommonly used syntax. < 1563583414 817385 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't use that, and instead use the "rgb", "rgba", "hsl", and "hsla" color things, it's interpreted as an sRGB value. < 1563583437 858767 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it says that Media Queries 4 deprecated some media queries, some of that I think may be useful to have. (I think you probably can use "screen" instead of "tv", "projection", and "handheld", but "tty" and "braille" seems like useful to have separately, I think.) < 1563583442 866880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it's an interesting thought nontheless. < 1563583460 929340 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :media type: stone tablet < 1563583479 580954 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :media type: tattoo < 1563583480 501596 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But e.g. color(rec2020 1 1 1); is white in Rec.2020. < 1563583506 225557 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563583507 634048 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also import an ICC value with it, and use the colorspace defined there. < 1563583534 456869 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is css esoteric < 1563583546 910168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bizarre, why would you need a complex colorspace when /encoding/ a color for CSS? < 1563583576 416545 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a clue. < 1563583583 565853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complexity should normally be on the decode side, because that's what knows the properties of the screen or other display device < 1563583599 673569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing I can think of is cases where you need more than three color channels < 1563583600 910132 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in addition to letting you explicitly state a color in Lab. < 1563583621 397984 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can I explicitly state an emission spectrum < 1563583630 266374 :pikhq!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. < 1563583642 877311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stating an emission spectrum would probably be incorrect, you're encoding to be seen by humans < 1563583650 895110 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For tattoo, I suppose you could use "print", maybe. < 1563583661 296966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you really want to be able to state is the subjective experience of colour you want people to be able to perceive when they look at your colour < 1563583693 34904 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 4 channels to accomodate red-green color blindness? < 1563583722 631404 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about tetrachromats! < 1563583736 535584 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1563583739 295533 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifying an emission spectrum has a certain charm. Of course, most hardware just won't accomodate that. < 1563583747 799985 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want to be able to specify is a colour by index number. (If not supported, the other colour specification would be used.) < 1563583750 610052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some printers that use six colours of ink < 1563583754 478502 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should be able to specify subjective colors for different species < 1563583755 369616 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also < 1563583760 785722 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some animals can detect polarization of light < 1563583763 284824 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as cephalopods < 1563583764 314405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what if your website is supposed to attract bees :) < 1563583775 316670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: even humans, if wearing sunglasses < 1563583780 402123 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is true < 1563583781 103431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and different angles of view, and differnt tinted glasses, yes < 1563583783 191136 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a little bit if not? < 1563583784 191917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was thinking ultraviolet, but polarization is a great idea as well.) < 1563583791 798499 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also different lighting if it's printed media < 1563583795 387272 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My character Ziveruskex can see five colours rather than three, but they don't have a computer machine so it is not a problem < 1563583810 476838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being able to produce circularly polarised output would be useful in showing 3D images < 1563583812 830842 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there should be support for making regions of the screen reflective < 1563583820 259537 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh yes, we can finally distinguish between transparent and reflective windows then < 1563583824 596545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that's just black < 1563583829 247509 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: don't they at least have illustrations drawn on paper in ink? < 1563583844 824998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most screens are naturally somewhat reflective due to being made of glass, and the reflections are more visible if you don't show anything behind them < 1563583846 168648 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :devices which do not support turning parts of the screen into mirrors can emulate it using the front-facing camera < 1563583847 115919 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, I suppose so. Maybe there could be the "3d" command for such purpose? < 1563583855 933346 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have you seen the "magic mirror" projects? < 1563583862 588667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1563583864 919937 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Perhaps, but it is just a fictional character anyways. < 1563583869 238642 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a computer screen mounted behind a half-silvered mirror < 1563583871 93115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's echoing old joke... somebody was saying that they don't see the point in transparent windows. But they would like to have reflective windows so that they could see what's going on behind them.) < 1563583883 955669 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/6-best-raspberry-pi-smart-mirror-projects-weve-seen-far/ < 1563583904 378757 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it looks like a regular mirror but you can draw stuff on top (light-colored only, I guess) < 1563583910 861858 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks pretty damn futurey < 1563583914 156629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, I'm rereading this blog post I wrote and got reminded of ODA < 1563583921 989434 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that it seem that only Mozilla has so far is, to select default foreground/background colours by CSS codes. That way you could have reverse video without having to override the user's background/foreground colour settings < 1563583953 493747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CSS isn't eso mostly because it's too widely used < 1563583958 179649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's mozilla only, really? < 1563583965 452964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ODA, on the other hand, seems absolutely insane to a modern audience < 1563583977 185721 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think so, but I don't know < 1563583988 984049 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: C++ is also widely used, yet it's definitely eso < 1563583991 600955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ODA, hmm < 1563584002 629669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not widely used because you get a small selection of colors. you don't get extra colors for, like, error messages or anything, and you can't just make them red because that could clash with the default colors. so the safest method is to set the color of everything. < 1563584014 839224 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's ODA? < 1563584026 248496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the foreground, background, link, visited link, and a few more stuff like colors in controls < 1563584051 653085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: suppose you're trying to work on a common format for word processors to share information, you have identical goals to HTML < 1563584058 406288 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That is why I want to have the ability to specify the index numbers for colours rather than RGB. < 1563584071 162414 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If index numbers are used, then they won't clash) < 1563584071 617847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but HTML hasn't been invented yet (nor have SGML/XML), nor has the Internet (so you're thinking mostly in terms of editing printed documents) < 1563584079 43725 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Document_Architecture? < 1563584081 776646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead, you attempt to generalise VT100 control codes < 1563584084 832885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ODA < 1563584105 916986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the project started in 1985 but wasn't finished until 1999, by which point it was completely out of date and nobody used it < 1563584158 25738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :outdone by mosaic < 1563584172 482576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wouldn't everyone just use wordstar format? < 1563584193 604888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: there was a format explosion at the time, ODA was an attempt to fix the problem < 1563584199 983647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd probably have worked if it had been written a bit faster < 1563584223 706690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, Wikipedia thinks it was doomed to failure anyway < 1563584231 801347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now why am I thinking of jigsaw in this context? Is there a connection or is it just misfiring synapses? < 1563584245 517074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the idea was imposed top-down in Europe and the American word processor manufacturers liked their lock-in < 1563584276 514787 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ODA less messy than HTML and CSS? < 1563584291 495335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not just about lock-in. hardware was less capable, and it was harder to write good software back then. < 1563584297 136728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't think so < 1563584302 867228 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"generalize VT100 control codes" sounds like a recipe for making a horrible mess. < 1563584309 351040 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1563584315 717818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up having to read part of the ODA standard because it was referenced by a different standard < 1563584318 390360 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also very not-declarative < 1563584332 826674 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a weird little machine for updating a terminal state in-place < 1563584359 859282 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: does it at least only go from top to bottom so it can be printed easily? < 1563584373 530509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my horror at ODA is that you've got this huge complex document format, and when it gets right down to the lowest level, bold text is still represented as ESC [ 1 m < 1563584375 426415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably feels like more like driving an old dot matrix printer (which is something I've actually done) :) < 1563584380 236688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need like only one line of buffer? < 1563584402 554874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: even Ecma-48 is pretty out-of-order capable < 1563584430 455965 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like DVI printing format < 1563584433 354986 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( switch to this mode, then we submit some data, then we switch out and to another mode, print some more data, and all hell will break loose if the output terminal is 132 instead of 80 characters wide ) < 1563584435 617370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and suggests codes for a sort of meta-editing where you edit the codes that get sent to the lower level which actually produces the output (and is capable of moving around within that) < 1563584457 391274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an old computer monitor next to me at the moment < 1563584468 977448 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it /still/ has a guide to control codes for a particular model of printer taped to it < 1563584498 190455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :underlined was ESC - l, apparently < 1563584507 611697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(these don't seem to be standardised codes, at least they're different from VT100) < 1563584522 548670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's probably a 1 rather than an l < 1563584523 663003 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to have #esoteric logged to a dot matrix printer with a tractor feed once, for æsthetic reasons. < 1563584529 501042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not very different in the font used for the guide < 1563584544 720826 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The printer codes are ESC/P which is different from the VT100 codes for the display < 1563584590 638813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh good old times. Consumer hardware that came with manuals that actually told you how to program it. (And those were not 100s of pages.) < 1563584639 764559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the printer manual I got the codes from was probably hundreds of pages < 1563584666 105483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Incidentally, there's something faintly mind-blowing about there having been around 14 years of effort spent on attempting to implement HTML using terminal control codes.) < 1563584684 392754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might have been, because it was also printed in several languages, now that I think of it. < 1563584757 292912 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/effort/bickering/ < 1563584758 209198 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet < 1563584799 439088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ODA seems like it's definitely the most appropriate thing to use for INTERCAL manuals < 1563584819 10500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not int he same volume, I think. at least the manual that I had for the epson matrix printer was only in Hungarian. it even had a few typos in control sequences exactly of the kind you expect from a translated book before digital typography, when the typesetter doesn't quite understand what the book is about < 1563584822 616428 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It is how I intend to design computer, that the manual does describe all of the programming. < 1563584827 613131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :complying with standards that nobody else complies with is more or less the most modern-INTERCAL thing possible < 1563584834 643891 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: t(?)roff isn't obscure enough? < 1563584836 386816 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an occasional 1 instead of l or backwards and similar < 1563584854 129338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not really < 1563584858 472352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetHack still uses it seriously < 1563584865 37004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's still the backend for man(1) < 1563584884 336850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's not necessarily a lack of subject matter knowledge < 1563584902 673618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are completely arbitrary codes, you often can't guess whether l or 1 is correct if you don't already know even if you know all the context and are an expert on the subject < 1563584915 918266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure you can guess. how else would I have recognized the typoes? < 1563584920 891945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there may be more that I didn't recognizer < 1563584933 101079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guessed 1 in this case just because the "end underline" code used a 0 in that position < 1563584938 207012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it has _fewer_ such typoes than the Hungarian translation of the K&R book < 1563584942 807782 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is much more terrible < 1563584969 454972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at one point they mixed up whether you need a \000 or a 0 for a boolean < 1563584979 384977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ecma-48 is a bit better in this respect, it has a very clear grammar to allow you to ignore unknown codes correctly < 1563585002 511138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, they show both ascii and hex of the bytes in the control sequence, and the ascii shows 0 and the hex shows 00 < 1563585002 825187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 and l are in completely different lexical classes, so using one rather than the other will nearly always make the code grammatically incorrect < 1563585012 720010 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although now it occurs to me that maybe only the lowest bit matters < 1563585048 195949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you talking about printer codes? I guess you must be because C didn't have booleans at the time < 1563585054 928948 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :printer codes < 1563585063 825848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they take booleans like you mention < 1563585077 130223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the ecma-like codes which use "h" and "l" < 1563585090 938426 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, for attributes, just different numbers < 1563585099 323043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 higher to turn off the attribute or something < 1563585166 388688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying "h" and "l" is wrong, I think; Ecma-48 gives the byte sequences to send purely using hexadecimal, there's not much suggestion that it should correspond to anything in ASCII < 1563585196 248819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reason ASCII /might/ be the correct way to interpret characters after ESC is the suspicious coincidence that numbers are sent in decimal using 0x30…0x39 as decimal digits < 1563585208 15667 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the K&R translation has a typo related to the \000 character too by the way: the reference implementation source of the fgets function wants '\n' at the end of the string rather than 0 < 1563585275 696779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well ok, but it's intermixed with ordinary character data, and sometimes, when a program parses the more complicated escape sequences wrong, the bytes of an escape sequence can end up interpreted as ordinary characters < 1563585293 831195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that more often happens at the receiving end, for a program parsing keyboard input that a terminal gives to it < 1563585297 800992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can happen either way < 1563585333 945704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and sometimes, when a program parses the more complicated escape sequences wrong, the bytes of an escape sequence can end up interpreted as ordinary characters" ← Ecma-48 is really well-designed so that that absolutely cannot happen, the only time you see it is when terminal developers completely ignore the standard's information on what the grammar of terminal codes is < 1563585380 576862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the feeling that most terminal developers don't even realise that, say, = is a digit in Ecma-48 (because it's in the 0x3? range) < 1563585401 765678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it happens often for keyboard input with terminfo+ncurses programs, because it basically only tries to match literal sequences to the escape codes representing the keyboard input (except maybe some rules with the mouse) < 1563585421 884806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and happens with other programs too with generic terminal input handling (not ecma-specific in theory) < 1563585451 597961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do realize that, I know my ascii table < 1563585499 401429 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think that any CSS media type you should also be allowed to specify continuous or paged media. For example, you might have a presentation that is screen but also paged, or if you use continuous paper then it will be print but also continuous. < 1563585503 56847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing a terminal code in Ecma-48 is completely trivial and most of the people who don't check the standard probably have more complex code to do it than the code the standard actually wants < 1563585504 752607 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, a few of the control characters are interpreted the same when they're inside an escape sequence and when they're not, which also shows that they're supposed to be the same character space < 1563585511 988504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, for codes starting CSI < 1563585531 236219 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's a very good point < 1563585547 681997 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but the problem is that terminfo and many other programs don't even try to parse ecma-48 codes, they try to work with arbitrary terminals, even non-ecma based ones < 1563585571 977471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: there's actually two layers, a decoding layer that goes bytes → codepoints and then Ecma-48 below that which mostly operates on the codepoints (but the decoding layer leaves, e.g., CSI-sequences the same so that they stay untouched) < 1563585586 557051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the decoding layer is in an entirely separate standard, and that explains why some things work consistently regardless of context < 1563585604 587816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the decoding layer is widely disrespected nowadays, though, because it is inconsistent with most encodings in widespread use < 1563585609 95790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, termbot had joe compiled to DOS, with some mild changes by me, and that one parses DOS keycodes, not ecma, but knows nothing about either, just has the literal sequences in the config file < 1563585615 237453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it isn't compatible with Windows-1252 nor with UTF-8 < 1563585657 633147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I ended up having to work out my own standard for mixing it with modern encodings when I wrote the bytes → codepoints layer for asciinema < 1563585719 313205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, does anyone actually use UTF-1? it's the traditional-terminal-decoding-layer-compatible Unicode encoding < 1563585727 688219 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1563585733 489273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's UTF-1? < 1563585771 884190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-1 < 1563585788 812239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about UTF-7, which is an encoding of unicode chars with only low bytes, and is used in MIME headers and mobile phone contact list export formats < 1563585802 553659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a multibyte encoding system that's sort-of ASCII compatible (ASCII characters encode to themselves but encodings of other characters can contain embedded ASCII) and avoids both the C0 and C1 ranges < 1563585835 857158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to make terminal standards work with modern encodings is hard because they both try to use C1 for different purposes < 1563585874 721458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in practice, what happened is that there are fallback codes specified for 7-bit connections that let you encode all the C1 codes using C0 codes, and terminals support /only/ those so that the C1 range can be used for things like UTF-8 < 1563585914 894629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but didn't those fallback codes basically always exist, because terminal io was sometimes sent through 7-bit serial/modem connections? < 1563585916 72249 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's use UTF-20.1 or whatever it is < 1563585943 368984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it goes from 0x0 to 0x10ffff (21 bits would be 0x1fffff) < 1563585950 208628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, 20 and a bit < 1563585951 191259 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :having those C0 and C1 codes in the bottom 256 codepoints is such a waste of space :( < 1563585990 877515 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but subtract 2048 values for surrogate pairs < 1563585992 857369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced, many of those codes are pretty important < 1563585995 163027 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are not valid Unicode codepoints < 1563585995 288786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, many of them aren't < 1563585999 244434 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them aren't < 1563586025 354958 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which C0 points are widely used < 1563586035 608600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print 0x10ffff < 1563586036 271653 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1114111 < 1563586044 858847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print 0x10ffff - 2048 < 1563586045 528341 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1112063 < 1563586059 216577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to subtract 2048, 1114111 is a much prettier number < 1563586062 956428 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :00 (NULL), 07 through 0D (the ones with C escapes), and 1B (escape) < 1563586069 231042 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a pretty number < 1563586074 456651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there are a few other miscellaneous invalid codes, like the byte-reversed byte order mark < 1563586075 717010 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: no, that's not what's the waste. it's having very rare scripts in the low 2048 codepoints is what's a waste. though ais told me that was a historical accident, because the code points were assigned before utf-8 was invented. < 1563586088 537568 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's all historical accidents < 1563586089 276244 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1563586094 396295 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1563586098 617662 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they at one point naïvely thought they could encode everything in 16 bits < 1563586100 700482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even ASCII < 1563586117 248976 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's go back to baudot < 1563586124 153426 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :baudot is still used sometimes in ham radio < 1563586134 576963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't scale very well to adding new characters < 1563586154 46363 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/Radio_Teletype_(RTTY) < 1563586160 377866 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is still fairly popular < 1563586166 608001 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day I picked up a Japanese RTTY contest from my house < 1563586169 131248 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tons of RTTY traffic < 1563586191 704637 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Unicode is messy. (I partially wrote (and altered) a document of Universal Terminal Character Coding, which is better for use with fix pitch displays without semantic character coding for displayed characters. Some of the characters are in Unicode, some have a ambiguous conversion to Unicode, some have a ambiguous conversion from Unicode, and some are not in Unicode at all.) < 1563586199 592830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://nethack4.org/esolangs/7/7.pl < 1563586200 566585 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-07-20 01:30:00 URL:http://nethack4.org/esolangs/7/7.pl [23458/23458] -> "7.pl" [1] < 1563586208 796056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1563586212 505536 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.pl \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom < 1563586221 229357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkdir interps/7 < 1563586222 64580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1563586229 223215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mv 7.pl interps/7 < 1563586229 936033 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mv: missing destination file operand after '7.pl interps/7' \ Try 'mv --help' for more information. < 1563586233 784382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` mv 7.pl interps/7 < 1563586235 562184 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1563586271 413402 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And, some characters, if you convert to Unicode you need multiple Unicode characters to represent it.) < 1563586287 360432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf '#!/bin/sh\necho "$1" | interps/7/7.pl /dev/stdin' > ibin/7 < 1563586289 10160 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1563586295 728825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` chmod a+x ibin/7 < 1563586297 297782 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1563586304 37358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` chmod a+x interps/7/7.pl < 1563586305 662114 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1563586323 369127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 5325101303040432004513151401430134321027403 < 1563586327 443756 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World! < 1563586338 105034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I got the program off TIO, thus the weird capitalisation) < 1563586339 155765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: shouldn't that have an exec in it? < 1563586351 90069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I guess it would be marginally more efficient? < 1563586358 737212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there's a correctness difference < 1563586363 995172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1563586373 831353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the fact that I'm using an anonymous pipe here might confuse things < 1563586386 77037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the echo and the 7.pl may have to run in parallel < 1563586398 494803 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would make the exit code correct even if the interpreter dies to a signal < 1563586408 462020 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, that probably doesn't matter < 1563586465 729236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: try translating 32 51 01 30 30 40 43 20 04 51 31 51 40 14 30 13 43 21 02 from base 6 into binary, you'll get hello world in Baudot < 1563586474 233348 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563586491 823867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is some use being made of it nowadays, admittedly in esolangs < 1563586497 751284 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what lang? < 1563586500 896660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 < 1563586503 946271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 < 1563586541 997530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when Donald Knuth wrote an INTERCAL program, he used three-letter names for line labels via baudot-encoding them into 15-bit numbers < 1563586559 789579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it's ais's underload-like that, instead of using parenthesis, uses levels of escaping values to such functions that output that value, or something strange like that < 1563586582 975925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the original aim was "Underload but you could generate /any/ string even if its brackets weren't matched" < 1563586586 570395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it got a little out of control < 1563586602 790622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the escaping part somewhat reminds me to Endo DNA < 1563586605 673466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: interesting < 1563586620 214791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, my original aim for Consumer Society wasn't what it eventually turned to < 1563586638 839336 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it somehow converged into a language with very simple definition but interesting properties, which is why it survived < 1563586651 369649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have other ideas that I haven't managed to turn to interesting esolangs < 1563586666 201998 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563586690 224466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to do well on CG&CC when it's outputting constant strings, because it's pretty good at it (Baudot's a pretty dense encoding) and it lets you do some pretty complex explanations of string literals sometimes < 1563586723 268181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a good example: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/183248/output-the-%c5%8bar%c3%a2%c3%be-cr%c3%ae%c3%be-alphabet-song-without-using-many-letters < 1563586938 523658 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens if I plug a USB A-to-C cable into my C charger and then plug the male A into my laptop < 1563586954 121277 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563587044 216824 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563587051 185647 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, there would be a disaster. < 1563587093 512910 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm guessing probably it's safe. That sentence just popped to my mind. It's a quote from a book.) < 1563587147 352385 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1563587148 715496 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which book < 1563587202 396109 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look to Windward, by Iain M. Banks. It's not really related contextually, and the quotation was slightly edited. < 1563587210 364130 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1563587271 171702 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Context: http://ix.io/1OX1 < 1563587280 419678 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :god, it must be such a nightmare to make all these different USB standards work together < 1563587290 384199 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the proprietary USB2 quick charge protocols < 1563587294 615600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 23723 < 1563587295 792634 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :23723 < 1563587297 704621 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Pixel 3a seems to support at least some of those < 1563587308 383592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 is very good at writing quines of varying levels of cheatiness < 1563587309 81642 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I can plug it into a USB-A port and get more than 0.5A < 1563587316 723380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 23 < 1563587317 628320 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :23 < 1563587319 939577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 3 < 1563587320 874472 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1563587333 215297 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think this A charger port does not do actual USB-PD, although I have heard that can be done in theory < 1563587340 471408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 223 < 1563587341 290327 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237223722372237 < 1563587349 215102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 2233 < 1563587350 218928 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :223372233 < 1563587355 833244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about 323? < 1563587358 932117 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that BC thing as well, right? < 1563587368 529129 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 323 < 1563587369 235814 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :323'copy' command run with no bar in the frame at interps/7/7.pl line 607, <> chunk 1. < 1563587374 816392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 5252 < 1563587376 26238 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​'copy' command run with no bar in the frame at interps/7/7.pl line 607, <> chunk 1. < 1563587389 19958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, the stack underflow happens at the wrong moment < 1563587398 198371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 exits the program on stack overflow but nothing else does < 1563587402 13657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* stack underflow < 1563587412 555568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than the end of the program < 1563587419 704476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to time the stack underflow so that it hits in a 3 command < 1563587421 940583 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("that BC thing" = USB Battery Charging Revision 1.2.) < 1563587433 667720 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't know anything about that < 1563587440 43713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 223372233 < 1563587440 826099 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :223372233 < 1563587443 217447 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about the different USB2 fast charge things < 1563587450 615979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :223372233 is uncontroversially a valid quine < 1563587451 785575 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that they are complicated hacks < 1563587455 799141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, maybe not? < 1563587461 16894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To recognize Battery Charging, a dedicated charging port places a resistance not exceeding 200 Ω across the D+ and D− terminals." That doesn't sound too complicated. < 1563587466 418905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it isn't, the second 2233 is using itself to print both halves < 1563587479 431558 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there are more complicated ones < 1563587490 563519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need the second half to read the /first/ half twice < 1563587495 439698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! 7 1322337132233 < 1563587496 214085 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1322337132233 < 1563587498 35287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1563587512 211597 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge < 1563587519 752016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one's an uncontroversially valid quine < 1563587538 515347 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah, this is what I read about it http://blog.deconinck.info/post/2017/08/09/Turning-a-Quick-Charge-3.0-charger-into-a-variable-voltage-power-supply < 1563587615 430681 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the problem with USB BC 1.2 is that it only goes up to 1.5A at 5V, which isn't really all that much. < 1563587648 204801 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a nice state machine that looks like a butterfly < 1563587659 233909 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah < 1563587680 36718 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need more than 5V to fast charge anything laptop/tablet-ish < 1563587718 183130 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my laptop charges at 20V, whether from USB-C or the dedicated brick < 1563587736 81518 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that also simplifies the power circuitry, although if it's going into a buck converter, probably doesn't matter that much < 1563587774 645666 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad I got this USB3 meter. it is fun < 1563587867 479437 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can buy a soldering iron that runs from USB3 < 1563587873 83555 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.amazon.com/UY-CHAN-Programmable-Pocket-size-Soldering/dp/B07G71CKC4 < 1563587886 919216 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/USB3/USB-PD/ < 1563587998 357397 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Pixel 3a battery life is not as good as my Moto G5+, which was really exceptionally good < 1563588070 492655 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1563588161 409559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl-e print 0x10ffff - 2048 - 66 < 1563588162 23113 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1111997 < 1563588169 253633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not too bad-looking a number < 1563588184 482698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in addition to the 2048 surrogates, there are 66 codepoints in range that are invalid for other reasons) < 1563588196 537511 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1563588248 651612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FDD0 to FDEF were reserved for programs to use internally, knowing that they'd never clash with any valid codepoint < 1563588260 229734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, any codepoint ending …FFFF or …FFFE is invalid < 1563588296 256125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0xFFFE being the most famous, because it's a byte-swapped 0xFFEF, and if a byte-swapped byte-order-mark could appear at the start of a file that'd be /really/ bad) < 1563588442 174240 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, interesting < 1563588496 505653 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some programs 0 will not be valid either. < 1563588515 98983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as in XML? < 1563588523 358703 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've started to do some weird things with combining characters < 1563588529 451682 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a drink for “modified UTF-8” < 1563588532 819323 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, XML and RDF. < 1563588534 777886 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as https://emojipedia.org/transgender-flag/ < 1563588538 393437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the UTF-8 fake NUL character < 1563588540 834470 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( r/aell/yb da ) < 1563588557 608195 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this "Emoji 13.0" spec part of Unicode? < 1563588594 842470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should probably be a proper, official name for the encoding that's UTF-8 except that NUL is encoded as C0 80 rather than 00 < 1563588611 28061 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is simply a overlong encoding for NUL < 1563588626 252776 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: JNI calls it modified UTF-8 < 1563588629 982091 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1563588631 247809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :("modified UTF-8" has the problem that it encodes astral plane characters by splitting them into surrogates and UTF-8ing the surrogates separately…) < 1563588638 472630 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :JNI does that too yeah < 1563588654 913351 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve never heard of something that uses overlong null but doesn’t do the surrogate thing? < 1563588657 176824 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHITE FLAG followed by "MALE WITH STROKE AND MALE AND FEMALE SIGN" (:rolleyes:) < 1563588667 925393 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also WTF-8 < 1563588675 856009 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://simonsapin.github.io/wtf-8/ < 1563588677 580989 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the same? < 1563588682 151494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: nor have I, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea < 1563588707 153726 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF-8 is just another use of UTF-8, that supports encoding lone surrogates. < 1563588709 411087 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iudrlszneoltkxbj JOIN :#esoteric < 1563588727 849805 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WTF-8 is useful if you want to convert UTF-16 to UTF-8.) < 1563588740 545930 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :soooooo muuuuuch damage was done in the brief period when “Unicode” meant what we now call “UCS-2” and 64k codepoints ought to be enough for anyone < 1563588744 828540 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much :( < 1563588775 152327 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the windows API, NTFS, USB, Java, wchar_t, ... < 1563588782 302136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a perfect encoding would be more radically different from Unicode, so maybe the current astral plane mess is beneficial in that it provides more incentive for a fix < 1563588815 835266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been thinking for a while about a format I call "Duocode", which represents each character as a pair: one element is the visual appearance of the character, the other the language/script/similar context < 1563588839 702092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, e.g., Cyrillic a and Latin a have the same appearance, Latin a and Latin b have the same script < 1563588853 841836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this fixes a number of problems more or less automatically < 1563588879 192463 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think different kind of character codings can be used for different purposes. But, yes that "Duocode" could work if you want both display and semantics without having to worry about both in programs that don't use it. < 1563588904 884089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, suppose you're reading some printed Japanese text that you want to type into a computer < 1563588911 940668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and find a lone thing in the text that looks like an "a" < 1563588919 181755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of context < 1563588932 341948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Unicode, you have to guess which script it's in to use the appropriate context < 1563588948 80465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Duocode, you'd be able to say "unknown script" (or perhaps even "Japanese") < 1563588957 133595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to use the appropriate character < 1563588967 422000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, Unicode's a big mess of mixing appearance and semantic < 1563588969 821266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*semantics < 1563588978 452153 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own "Universal Terminal Character Coding" also avoids that problem too (but it doesn't have semantics) < 1563589015 507579 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to create an emoji for a family with 5 parents and 3 children < 1563589016 360099 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like TeX, in which the font and low 8 bit of the character code uniqely determines the dimensions of the character, the upper 8 bits of the character code can't change it? < 1563589033 73622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: a bit < 1563589051 350600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in this case I think the dimensions might change for different scripts, even the appearance to a small extent < 1563589065 510118 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: That is a feature of the .TFM format, which is used in TeX (which itself does not support characters longer than 8-bits at all), but may be usable with other programs too. < 1563589086 310430 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it selects as a single character, but that might be the usual behavior of anything combined with ZWJ < 1563589090 331648 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, that doesn't sound like a particular good idea to me. now you're just picking two random properties of the character and want to put it in the code. but there are other properties that programs can be interested in, not just those, and you can look them up from tables, so I don't see why your particular format would be the best. < 1563589092 750683 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it renders the same as a few nuclear families < 1563589104 325693 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I once wrote a program that had to write to a file containing UTF-16 text, with the source file being ASCII. In the parts where the text was exported to the file, it supports any UTF-8, including improper UTF-8 such as Modified UTF-8, CESU-8, etc; and overlong encodings can be used to escape trailing spaces and line breaks, too.) < 1563589107 826129 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(binary families? whatever) < 1563589122 714464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok < 1563589154 730111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Duocode would probably use the same appearance for б and 6 (the first is a Cyrillic lowercase b, the latter an Arabic numeral) < 1563589166 121774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd want to render them differently based on the script code < 1563589175 828813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't consider them random properties: < 1563589205 517359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) they should be a perfect key, in the sense that one script can't meaningfully have two characters that look the same, so the pair should uniquely define the character < 1563589207 845236 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The reason it does this is just due to the output file being UTF-16 and the input file being ASCII; otherwise, it probably won't do such thing, and would use the same encoding as the output file if it is compatible with ASCII.) < 1563589251 578523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) it removes any incentive to merge characters that are almost identical but not quite into identical codepoints, which has caused some controversy in the past (e.g. merging Chinese and Japanese characters that look the same even though they need to be rendered slightly differently) < 1563589296 84294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but then you'll just have to set the "script" artificially in such a way that it matches your property (a) < 1563589297 749913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :c) appearance isn't a random property at all, it's what people use when actually reading a document < 1563589315 609031 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, then a font that only supports one character and not the other one, will still be able to approximate it. < 1563589316 990067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think there's much artificial about it? either you know or you don't < 1563589323 521822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know then it's not artificial < 1563589345 286206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't know, Duocode will let you say that you don't know, rather than having to try to find a character that looks similar but might mean something totally different < 1563589362 529796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really easy to, say, mix up Ⓒ and © < 1563589382 473973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you're using Unicode < 1563589387 918021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but in what sense is that "script", rather than just an arbitrary selector among similar looking characters? < 1563589403 998056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's basically the context in which the character appears < 1563589412 970386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the language you're writing in < 1563589422 37453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you mean language! < 1563589422 761487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :often it'll be the same for an entire document < 1563589424 275157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit better < 1563589437 920736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we currently encode that in metadata < 1563589451 363807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a different word because there's a technical distinction, e.g. Russian is a language but Cyrillic is a script < 1563589473 421315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps going as far as just making it the language would be better though < 1563589480 722556 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many bits will be used for each part (visual and script)? < 1563589487 129778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on whether different Cyrillic-using languages always want to render it the same way < 1563589525 511881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: 16 should be enough for the script half, it'd be pretty tight on the visual half though so that might need to be larger to be on the safe side < 1563589525 990035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no of course not. there are either two or three different incompatible appearances for the same cyrillic letters, depending on who you believe < 1563589567 436344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the other advantage of recording the language separately is that it lets you know whether two different-looking characters are supposed to be semantically equal or not < 1563589575 348429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ö and oe are semantically equal in German but not in English < 1563589579 723028 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably need at least two different ones for latin too < 1563589597 227704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more likely three, one specifically for turkish only < 1563589607 215386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there are, e.g., two different ways to write lowercase a in English < 1563589627 540009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one has a curve above the main body, touching it at the right hand side, curving over, and stopping without touching at the left hand side < 1563589636 170566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other has a taller body and a little curve at the bottom-right corner < 1563589679 300420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LowercaseA.svg < 1563589690 172293 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For typesetting, I think what the .TFM format does is good (except that it is limited to 256 metrics, which is not always enough, and some languages and uses may need a few additional specifications that the .TFM format does not support) < 1563589724 78545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd give them separate codes because there are probably cases where the distinction matters (also, this would basically force the use of a normalization library, which is probably a good thing) < 1563589812 806066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this is all idle/eso speculation, unseating Unicode is almost certainly impossible at this point < 1563589849 745171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : In modern English orthography, the letter ⟨a⟩ represents at least seven different vowel sounds ← that sounds about right for English < 1563589853 352461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least until they run out of code points for emoji < 1563589916 502407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they won't, they're already using crazy standardized code point combinations for emoji that work randomly differently for different emoji characters < 1563589949 574976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :combining stuff that is randomly valid or not valid depending on which brand of mobile phone first added the particular emoji and in what year < 1563589958 267969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's done for backwards-compatibility, I think < 1563589990 873275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, you can zwj gender markers onto emojis representing particular jobs to get a gendered emoji for the job, but if the client doesn't have one it can just render them separately < 1563590015 425591 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how the family emojis work too < 1563590030 38619 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :man + zwj + man + zwj + girl < 1563590044 432131 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence me trying to figure out if i can make poly family emojis < 1563590064 72709 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, and the trans flag is the same way < 1563590087 604830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zwj got kind-of more and more out of control as time went on, I think < 1563590090 561669 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is messy, but so is the rest of Unicode < 1563590099 253892 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAVING WHITE FLAG + ZERO-WIDTH JOINER + MALE WITH STROKE AND MALE AND FEMALE SIGN < 1563590135 569699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… perhaps you should be able to zwj absolutely anything onto a flag < 1563590141 913257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lowercase a flag would be fun < 1563590184 264936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :🏳‍a < 1563590208 444960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, Gnome renders it differently without the ZWJ but the a doesn't go onto the flag in either case < 1563590233 599729 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how about a CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A flag < 1563590239 178042 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at how the country flags are encoded < 1563590246 358806 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about a CYRILLIC MULTIOCULAR O flag < 1563590254 111474 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: they have a special copy of the latin alphabet, right? < 1563590258 280474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or putting regulr emoji on flags: 🏳‍😀 < 1563590258 397014 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a pair of those gives an ISO country code? < 1563590274 421205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: actually, the whole flag thing was done to avoid having to specify which countries existed < 1563590278 574050 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my chrome does not seem to do the trans flag thing yet < 1563590291 872513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be very controversial < 1563590309 504807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess there may also be cases where the existence of the country is uncontroversial but which flag to use is controversial?) < 1563590317 264768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, they use pairs of what are, effectively, flag surrogates < 1563590318 36632 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether unicode has the dancing men alphabet (Sherlock Holmes) somewhere. < 1563590320 276914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: exactly. but the problem is that some of those two-level country codes have been reused already < 1563590333 30269 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blog.emojipedia.org/fun-emoji-hacks/ < 1563590342 869821 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should have used the three-letter country codes to avoid a flag randomly appearing as the flag of an unrelated country ten years later < 1563590385 39497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think that's just a different font for the latin letters. also we don't even know all of it, some letters are missing. < 1563590390 871709 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blog.emojipedia.org/ninja-cat-the-windows-only-emoji/ < 1563590401 651797 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then add a date to the flag < 1563590409 573415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"🇪 🇺" without the space produces "🇪🇺", so it's not /just/ countries < 1563590427 612738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's "EU" in regional indicators, for people whose client can't render it) < 1563590437 104293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I could just as well ask for the strange futhark rune that Jules Verne uses for the letter "G" but that was probably never used to that meaning anywhere < 1563590443 336620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"UN" also seems to work: 🇺🇳 < 1563590479 260619 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently some people got butthurt at some point because you can put a "NO" circle-slash over the rainbow flag < 1563590491 530068 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can put it over a frog emoji too so let's call it even < 1563590493 72013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there anything you can't put it over? < 1563590497 185241 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1563590505 360900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's almost like the choices of what's put into Unicode are arbitrary... < 1563590507 473935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it's a combining character < 1563590510 610702 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1563590517 2984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: we'll fix that in Newspeak < 1563590522 612806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… does this mean you can do things like flag-acute and flag-umlaut? < 1563590527 322056 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1563590566 292091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :🇬🇧̈ < 1563590579 313037 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :emojis are very political, on twitter putting them in your display name is like badges of which causes you support < 1563590583 996908 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to keep up < 1563590584 179866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox doesn't put the umlaut on top :-( < 1563590590 567474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Konversation does, but it can't render the flag < 1563590622 930329 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the avocado has become the "YIMBY" pro-housing emoji < 1563590663 752244 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rose is a socialist / Labour Party thing < 1563590668 722600 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and frog is alt-right due to pepe < 1563590688 793827 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a bunch more < 1563590697 211547 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the avocado is the most amusing one < 1563590707 344159 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the tastiest of those < 1563590725 210418 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ate frog once, do not recommend < 1563590737 772060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rose is the Labour Party's logo in the UK (and has been for decades, predating the emoji), so that one is fairly easy to explain < 1563590750 316701 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1563590800 506004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rose was popular in socialist countries (at least the GDR) as well. < 1563590847 475115 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow I didn't realize they had different hair styles in addition to skin tones < 1563590851 469613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the UK Labour Party tend to oscillate wildly relating how socialist they are, so they're not an ideal reference to use < 1563590878 82946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're unusually socialist at the moment, but were to the right of the Conservatives not all that long ago < 1563590889 612616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they might not be the greatest reference for defining an emoji < 1563590893 622155 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah parties are funny like that < 1563590906 582922 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :DSA also uses a rose < 1563590952 729598 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://emojipedia.org/female-singer/ < 1563590966 678755 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that several systems use pink/purple hair to identify a singer :P < 1563590983 353061 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I flew to the UK with some friends, all of us happened to have brightly colored dyed hair < 1563590998 70148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people assumed you were a pop group? < 1563590998 932491 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the customs agent asked "Are you in a band or something?" < 1563591000 216664 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1563591039 478789 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :two of my friends likewise had brightly colored hair and were touring rural china on a geology trip and < 1563591045 786530 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :were stopped /constantly/ by locals wanting a photo < 1563591057 937066 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing westerners was weird enough by itself, let alone ones with bright green hair < 1563591082 654504 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also some random stranger asked my friend where to buy LSD on the basis that said friend had bright red hair < 1563591110 333452 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my first passport photo I had green hair < 1563591114 76570 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and looked really good < 1563591125 370286 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :second one was also good, but really masculine < 1563591131 621924 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :third (current) is crappy but recognizably female < 1563591140 498547 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is my driver's license photo < 1563591156 897488 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what really pisses me off is I need to get the DL renewed on my birthday next February, even though I got the new one (w/ updated gender marker) this year < 1563591160 263753 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't reset the expiration date < 1563591163 580403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( identity transformation ) < 1563591169 95016 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1563591206 465692 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't have "pregnant man" emojis yet < 1563591229 684981 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's going to become a problem at some point < 1563591279 386211 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm disappointed that you can't ZWJ the bride/groom emojis < 1563591294 14542 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on my system < 1563591357 574888 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :merperson... now this is just silly. they should have a combining character so you can join MAN + FISH < 1563591364 510618 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we can do all the other animal combinations < 1563591385 168239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this the point at which someone links the XKCD about the vomiting rocket emoji? < 1563591424 436331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… at some point you'd assume that correct emoji rendering would become AI-hard (like AI-complete, but harder because you need knowledge of the world too) < 1563591450 17908 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Kiss: Woman, Woman emoji is a sequence of the 👩 Woman, ❤ Heavy Black Heart, 💋 Kiss Mark and 👩 Woman emojis." < 1563591453 373390 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is pretty elaborate < 1563591474 785644 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1563591477 229532 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't seen that one < 1563591486 914751 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vomiting Dove" makes sense because that's how they feed their young < 1563591488 561409 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1563591496 515755 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also part of the mating ritual < 1563591505 474557 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://xkcd.com/1857/ is better than the vomiting rocket one. < 1563591531 255605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly less ontopic, though < 1563591542 351201 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :always a critic < 1563591557 970731 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unicorn's horn should also be a modifier < 1563591564 155775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a followup which actually reviewed the emoji movie, I think that's better than either (but even less ontopic) < 1563591609 376381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.xkcd.com/1870/ < 1563591626 843264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for anyone who hasn't found it yet, the original xkcd we were discussing is https://www.xkcd.com/1813/) < 1563591690 955455 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patrick Stewart voicing the poo emoji is probably the worst example I can think of of an actor taking a role way beneath him < 1563591702 97345 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he owed the mob a bunch of money or something < 1563591731 204334 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have read that if you're already famous, voice acting work is absurdly lucritive for very little work < 1563591737 671480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the title-text comment about real-world usage of the upside-down smiley face emoji is one of those things that's really thought-provoking < 1563591821 518624 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :TJ Miller rage-quitting Silicon Valley to star in that piece of shit is also pretty pathetic < 1563591823 445489 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-: < 1563591835 731427 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's a real treat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.J._Miller#Legal_issues_and_controversies < 1563591844 57344 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1563591854 784824 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I can find, U+1F93F is diving mask, not for vomiting. < 1563591861 995100 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to explain what upside down face, or face with no mouth means < 1563591864 944215 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think I can use them < 1563591941 204193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I'm not sure if I can use them but I sort-of get the meaning in other people's usage < 1563591948 566916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you've seen them more than me < 1563591994 706406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the great thing about this is that it acts as a disproof of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis that can actually be communicated to other people, because it's a sort of shared disproof rather than being specific to one person's thoughts < 1563592017 375066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've thought several disproofs in the past, but they have the fundamental problem that I have no way to easily communicate them to other people) < 1563592112 176015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… now I'm thinking about that moment several years ago when I had to ask someone what Kappa meant (in the common colloqual usage) as I didn't figure it out exactly based on examples < 1563592172 758017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I got close, but not close enough) < 1563592571 106706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… I wonder if it makes sense to use strings like "" as BOM-equivalents to show the encoding of text that escapes Unicode into ASCII rather than using more normal encodings < 1563592799 278133 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it disprove S-W? < 1563592833 917050 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you mean that if a file starts with the ASCII literal string "" then the decoder should assume it's ASCII, w/ Unicode escapes of that form? < 1563592939 518729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: right < 1563592957 78705 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1563592960 290786 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that useful? < 1563592994 470991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not obviously useless; say you want to send an HTML file over a 7-bit connection but need it to round-trip perfectly < 1563593027 299161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result would be way more readable (also more likely to be interpreted correctly by a random computer program) than UTF-7 < 1563593060 946814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just use no BOM but then people would be uncertain about whether the input contained the actual characters or the escaped version < 1563593261 612080 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1563593271 511810 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the escapes will already have that meaning no matter what < 1563593278 139002 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's just a hint that there will be no non-ASCII characters < 1563593328 504819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the difference is that if the original text contained characters in both escaped and unescaped form < 1563593338 300703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the version after encoding will contain them in double-escaped and escaped form < 1563593343 884626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing you to roundtrip < 1563593362 754592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas if you tried to escape into valid HTML directly, the distinction would be lost because double-escaped would just echo) < 1563593625 180500 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1563594681 108324 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1563594692 93428 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1563594706 131682 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIL that in Japan, it is considered lucky to dream of an eggplant on the first night of the new year < 1563594787 313534 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can learn a lot about asian culture by reading about emojis :P < 1563594842 632546 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(eggplants, hawks, and Mt. Fuji) < 1563594980 478097 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many specific, singular things are represented by Emoji? < 1563595093 162908 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japan, Mt. Fuji, the Earth (in several variations), the Statue of Liberty, the Tokyo Tower, the Kaaba, Sol, Luna (both in several variations) < 1563595103 588321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe compose keys should use RFC 1345, it's /way/ more comprehensive than any other compose key implementation I've seen < 1563595247 106545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, it even has control codes < 1563595263 878359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…it even has /C1/ control codes < 1563595286 299373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compose C I for CSI, for example < 1563595300 2394 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1563595313 718770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, some of the characters in Brachylog's character set don't appear even in RFC 1345 > 1563596836 558705 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64584&oldid=64558 5* 03A 5* (+4528) 10/* Sandbox */ new section > 1563596891 683892 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64585&oldid=64584 5* 03A 5* (-101) 10/* Sandbox */ > 1563596925 321069 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64586&oldid=64585 5* 03A 5* (-4427) 10 < 1563597553 766133 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iudrlszneoltkxbj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1563601479 446347 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: should I get some kind of magsafe nonsense thing for my USB-C charging < 1563601687 192679 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563601727 254909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1563601877 51214 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563602573 572940 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, there are all kinds of fun things i can do < 1563602593 868393 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like my phone came with this USB-C-male to USB-A-female adapter < 1563602603 65153 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i guess is like an OTG adapter < 1563602614 374131 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can also use it to turn a USB-C charger into a legacy USB charger < 1563602624 74121 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means one less thing to carry < 1563602624 789020 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1563602855 986936 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh it's a charger with a USB-C port, and a USB-C plug-plug cable? < 1563602862 536761 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, your usual charger setup < 1563602898 916647 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :my phone came with a "regular"/legacy USB-A charger but with the relevant fast-charging capabilities, and an A-male - C-male cable, for charging it < 1563603028 155763 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1563603039 422265 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, mine came with a brick that has a USB-C port on it < 1563603154 445779 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I got another brick that also has USB-C on it, but this one is a bit larger and can charge my laptop too < 1563603188 92583 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i will carry that in my everyday bag, instead of a separate phone and laptop charger < 1563603255 101514 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with a C-to-C cable and an A-to-C cable < 1563603262 811402 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if I need to charge both I can charge the laptop from USB-C and the phone from its USB-A port < 1563603295 126264 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the phone can charge fast enough from my A-only powerbank so I'm keeping that < 1563603336 912024 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: so I wonder if your legacy brick supports USB-PD on its type-A port < 1563603350 698358 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it only supports the legacy, quasi-standard quick charge thingies < 1563603355 402210 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is so complicated now < 1563603414 309271 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely not USB-PD (as in, the standard "fast charge" thing), because phone uses the other quickcharge thing common in the industry < 1563603446 888390 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Nintendo Switch does USB PD IIRC, but its charger just comes with a physical cable attached to the wallwart (and USB-C male at the end of the cable) < 1563603509 296184 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :My understanding is that the legacy, quasi-standard quick charge thingie was to adopt USB PD as a required thing to support in the next version of it < 1563603521 224172 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hopefully that mess will go away/unify over the next few years? maybe < 1563603563 17592 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC phone cos went and did their own thing because the standard PD thing was taking its merry time, and they didn't want to wait around? or something < 1563603568 833932 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess I could also see < 1563603582 341692 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying as the fragmentation is < 1563604178 255092 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563604507 340429 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qmosatjalnpmvlmy QUIT :Quit: Idle kick: User has been idle for 30 days. < 1563604910 651455 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1563606200 167279 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1563606226 344073 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, as messy as the details are, it's working pretty well for me the consumer < 1563606239 951329 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I plug a "fast charging" device into a "fast charging" charger then it usually "fast charges" in some way or another < 1563606364 250267 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's the case between the Switch and the phone (which are the two USB-C-charging devices I have so far), but ah well < 1563606387 544396 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, I mean.. it *charges* either way, but charges quicker when I use the "right" charger rather than the "wrong" one < 1563606398 162496 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1563606407 763097 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but fortunately most of the time I'm not that much in a hurry anyway) < 1563606419 425153 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just use whatever is closest/already plugged in because lazy < 1563606441 541923 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1563606457 116019 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fast charging will wear out your battery faster won't it < 1563606466 450654 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, and that's a fair point < 1563606483 844527 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that's a thing for electric vehicles < 1563606499 605402 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it matters for a phone that will probably be replaced within 5 years anyway < 1563606506 659444 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a drawer of old smartphones < 1563606514 409183 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe devices ought to ask you when you plug it in at what rate you want to charge it (and use that to decide whether to negotiate for faster power or not) < 1563606521 28341 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1563606530 223005 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to not be very consumer-y when it comes to smartphones :p < 1563606541 504790 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did get a new one last year, but that was replacing the aging Jolla1 phone from 2013 < 1563606581 909308 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :before that I had the E7 briefly which I got as a replacement when the N900 died, and before that, said N900 which was the first 'smart' phone I had < 1563606610 15823 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I do value not wearing the battery too much :p < 1563606657 1897 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :The J1 had a very worn out battery, and very worn out USB connector.. those were not insignificant in deciding to get a new phone < 1563606688 475014 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1563606691 833773 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got a new Pixel 3a < 1563606700 987227 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I had cracked the shit out of the screen on my Moto G5+ < 1563606709 840877 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was looking not too easy to repair / replace < 1563606715 931458 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1563606716 692429 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a good phone, though < 1563606736 116734 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pro tip, don't store your phone in a purse with a heavy metal object < 1563606749 444631 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1563606761 827439 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :heavy (metal object), or (heavy metal) object? < 1563606778 34400 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former... I hope < 1563606782 899960 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's stainless steel < 1563606796 225799 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nod* < 1563606938 556556 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this Anker brick has one USB-C-PD and one USB-A with "PowerIQ 2.0" < 1563606941 475968 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever the hell that is < 1563606941 688783 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do keep my phone and keys in separate pockets for a reason :p < 1563606950 91222 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1563606977 2359 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be their proprietary name for an implementation of various different devices' quick charging specs < 1563606979 958988 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1563606998 735671 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally I do keep my phone in a pocket by itself, but in this case I was wearing a dress and did not have pockets < 1563607002 390124 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think/thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge was the main competitor to USB-PD (and ah, it looks like 4 and 4+ also do USB-PD stuffs) < 1563607033 75541 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was distracted while leaving a party so did not consider the hazards < 1563607041 99745 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1563607079 812374 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also dropped that phone on concrete on many occasions < 1563607377 161729 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563607439 281473 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563610808 902366 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1563613073 160168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" the great thing about this is that it acts as a disproof of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis" => huh? what is a disproof? < 1563613110 678519 :haavard!root@haavard.me QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1563613202 703242 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I had to ask someone what Kappa meant" => that's one of the Twitch chat specific emoticons. Yeah, it's not trivial to figure out what the commonly used ones mean from examples. I don't think I understand them either. I think Kappa marks a certain kind of humour where you act as better than others or something. < 1563613207 777119 :haavard!root@haavard.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1563613370 132433 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" it's not obviously useless; say you want to send an HTML file over a 7-bit connection but need it to round-trip perfectly" => then gzip and mime base64 encode or uuencode it. ampersane-escapes aren't enough, because you won't know which stuff were escapes in the original HTML. (XML can also have CDATA or non-ASCII characters in tag or attribute names.) < 1563613418 989501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" the version after encoding will contain them in double-escaped and escaped form" => uh < 1563613554 832573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can assume from just a  that it's such of a double escaped file. That could be there just by accident when someone accidentally escaped some characters in a file starting with an UTF-8 BOM. < 1563615368 739665 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1563615394 268221 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563618530 689578 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563618695 749480 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1563619971 904028 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1563623378 856186 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1563623402 924458 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563623675 942727 :Melvar!~melvar@ltea-178-014-120-010.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1563624289 203517 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563625519 719319 :Melvar!~melvar@ltea-178-014-120-010.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563627655 766711 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563628416 304447 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1563631686 753971 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563631904 894649 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1563634716 662307 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563634752 558592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-206.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1563634925 638933 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1563635605 952028 :jalumar!~user6022@2a00:801:20c:7c1::1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1563635930 225641 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563636109 635266 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1563636289 205118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563638905 463465 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563639934 990073 :Melvar!~melvar@ltea-178-014-120-010.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1563640538 669742 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: charging < 1563640551 503860 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing that is really bad for batteries is leaving them at 100% < 1563640570 823743 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is basically totally impossible to not do that with any phone or laptop < 1563640583 811663 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that bad for them < 1563640651 558146 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t know the materials science behind it but it results in faster capacity loss > 1563640663 121367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dbondb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64587&oldid=64581 5* 03Sideshowbob 5* (+127) 10/* Commands */ < 1563640742 374735 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve charged my car to 100% like five times ever and only *immediately* before a road trip < 1563640758 853688 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I charge my phone to 100% and let it sit that way for hours every night > 1563640936 8819 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dbondb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64588&oldid=64587 5* 03Sideshowbob 5* (-3) 10Undo revision 64587 by [[Special:Contributions/Sideshowbob|Sideshowbob]] ([[User talk:Sideshowbob|talk]]) < 1563641238 659098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah where *is* the phone setting that says "stop charging at 85%"? < 1563641252 601477 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1563641256 687933 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinkpads have that setting < 1563641277 10865 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can also set a maximum point to *start* charging < 1563641284 481309 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus giving some hysteresis between them < 1563641299 708305 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you plug in, charge to 96%, run down to 94%, plug back in, it might not necessarily start charging again < 1563641301 31779 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm sounds nice. < 1563641322 133233 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is good to avoid excess charge cycles in the usual case where you're unplugging your laptop for brief periods of time < 1563641337 743164 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I've noticed, the battery life on my X270 is good enough that I'm using it more like a phone, just plugging it in overnight < 1563641345 725670 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, if charging to 100% is so harmful, maybe you should spec the batteries at lower capacity... < 1563641351 284594 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is OK to use "#ifndef MSG_MORE" and "#define MSG_MORE 0"? Will that cause any problems with the program if it does that? < 1563641354 87027 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so I suppose marketing is a major factor here. < 1563641363 170289 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has an internal battery and an external, high-capacity battery < 1563641369 206863 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also means the external battery is hot swappable < 1563641459 15516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Phones sell on reviews of early models, and battery lifetime is a major selling point. So any charging schedule that results in higher capacity and does not visibly destroy the battery in the first week is an advantage? Sigh.) < 1563641488 136215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a month or two for people who wait for social media experience reports. < 1563641541 164234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's the planned obsolescence angle. < 1563641596 52920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :'If you find the mail in your spam, it’s because of your internet ISP.' -- yeah it couldn't possibly be because it *is* spam. < 1563641621 437806 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I like reading opening lines of spam mails for some reason.) < 1563641830 354681 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use /etc/aliases to avoid receiving spam < 1563642305 361329 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It works OK, if you use a separate email address for each purpose.) < 1563642646 432397 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563642764 721590 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1563642982 836331 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1563643686 213380 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563643899 377949 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1563643994 221905 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64589&oldid=64571 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-4) 10/* Proposed Categories: Arch-based and Bootstrapped */ < 1563644027 364083 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1563646629 208308 :Melvar!~melvar@ltea-178-014-120-010.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563646839 584285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563646946 261595 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1563648448 189658 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1563649126 502624 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think bystand may be so far the only NNTP client program with a feature specific to Unusenet (the UNUSENET_SERVER_NAME() SQL function; which may be used in the PostTo option) < 1563649633 489515 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1563650156 44780 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1563650455 246241 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563650632 309460 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1563650637 238398 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1563652168 13984 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1563653492 279426 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563653878 44524 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1563655140 389514 :user24!~user24@p2E50C34D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1563655547 523004 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just passed a car with the vanity plate U1F47E < 1563655721 431680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1563655950 587380 :lldd_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1563655957 600562 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, idgi < 1563656246 718930 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+1F47E < 1563656270 385306 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is very bay area < 1563656274 503110 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, wow < 1563656277 805632 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1563656290 17892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's that diagram of the bay area memespace kmc < 1563656297 186796 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one i remember you linking to and hating years ago < 1563656320 167159 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that character is sponsored by RubberRhino Games < 1563656326 727686 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.unicode.org/consortium/adopted-characters.html < 1563656331 84669 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if that's related to the car < 1563656337 150461 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I have no idea what you're talking about, sorry < 1563656356 832150 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you must be getting old < 1563656361 35781 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :your shitposting memory is fading < 1563656546 979544 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of car was it? looks like rubberrhino makes truck/car racing games < 1563656582 619703 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :this character sponsorship is some sort of dismal late capitalist performance art < 1563656603 899058 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :BURNIN R shows up on some of the images I can find < 1563656712 287689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hmm interesting that the same character can be adopted several times < 1563656776 497420 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at bronze level yes < 1563656783 396954 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you know how much dope I smoke < 1563656788 84531 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can barely remember what I ate for lunch yesterday < 1563656799 491210 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know how much dope you smoke < 1563656803 460831 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a lot" < 1563656810 114675 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not that much these days but for the sake of the joke < 1563656814 688167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you i want hard numbers < 1563656817 166648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: and this channel should celebrate the bronze sponsor of the multiocular O. < 1563656829 609475 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote prose < 1563656830 348257 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1132) A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric." < 1563656842 318652 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I dunno, Unicode Consortium is a nonprofit whose mission is vital to enabling people around the world to use the internet through a free open standard < 1563656843 963657 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :best artistic achievement this channel has ever produced < 1563656846 71400 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1563656854 647239 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's pretty not-dystopian-capitalism as these things go < 1563656864 809236 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: of course. < 1563656868 442020 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, which makes it pretty dismal that it needs to sell corporate advertising < 1563656976 56373 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, true < 1563656982 359282 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair point < 1563656988 767984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Unicode is very messy < 1563657009 838443 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are better character encodings, and different one are good for different use. < 1563657012 278507 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you make a zzocode? < 1563657057 829952 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I partially made up a "Universal Terminal Character Coding", which is designed for grid displays with no complex scripts or other stuff like that < 1563657170 710378 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The width of a text made up of printable characters only (without control characters) is equal to the number of bytes with value less than 0xC0. Both single-cell characters and double-cell characters are included, although some implementations might support only single-cell characters. < 1563657448 753233 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also includes a lot of stuff that isn't in Unicode. (Some of the characters in some terminals are not in Unicode, but this code does include them. You can use them for font mapping in a terminal emulator when a character set including them is specified by the escape codes.) < 1563658938 609851 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1563659145 344961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: why? I think it's a win for everyone. the advertisments don't buy anything. they don't put ugly animated banners on their homepage telling about their sponsors. It's pure sponsorship donations. I don't think it's dismal. < 1563659164 865570 :user24!~user24@p2E50C34D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1563659259 683786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the name of the sponsors can't even be queried as character properties from unicode libraries. < 1563659265 83504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's totally without any effect. < 1563659338 390314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even just optimized away. < 1563659821 533504 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcdc6imrwoapg3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1563660664 179267 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563660777 525429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563660794 973084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if someone accidentally escaped a BOM, then isn't it likely that they also accidentally escaped the rest of the file the same way? < 1563660826 799035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is the assumption that they escaped all non-ASCI characters but left & the same? < 1563660830 993275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*non-ASCII < 1563660935 563464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no. I'd assume they'd escape only text, not double-escape HTML < 1563660945 492381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, they don't escape the entire HTML, just build an HTML from parts < 1563660981 195913 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you can't be sure in that, because you can find all sorts of crazy messed up HTML-like things on the internet, but I still wouldn't guess that they just escaped an HTML < 1563660981 652747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they're building it from parts, how did they find a part with a BOM before the opening ? < 1563661013 815315 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah... I don't know, but I don't think your alternative is very likely either < 1563661061 264681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be if you did it intentionally < 1563661063 520364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this at least if the escaped BOM is at the start < 1563661088 498144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's in an XML inside an element that isn't likely to be part of the HTML, then yes, then I'd think they escaped an HTML inside an XML < 1563661095 444159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%EF%BB%BF&ia=web < 1563661104 386166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no results, but yet it pulls up a relevant Wikipedia page anyway < 1563661119 154074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1563661123 792771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe there are no byte order marks anywhere on the Internet, so maybe DDG just don't index them < 1563661124 738714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you should scan a bit after the BOM < 1563661149 372717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I meant an escaped BOM right at the start of the document (which is the only place they should appear) < 1563661153 702576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see  then it's not double-escaped; if you see < then it is probably double-escaped, < 1563661164 91980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see, clever < 1563661186 202513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.234.37 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1563661208 344919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if you see <DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"<>HTML< < 1563661259 440164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've at least seen HTML parts escaped in JSON < 1563661259 470984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got the gts and lts backwards near the end, but yes < 1563661273 864543 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, french style, not german style, yeah < 1563661287 200914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-66.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't have messed that up < 1563661965 392172 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :smoke html erryday > 1563665215 117356 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Kepler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64590&oldid=64441 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+947) 10 < 1563665652 526631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1563665724 206090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1563666507 255530 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1563666690 530865 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98455.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1563667077 164350 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds