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02:40:15 <esowiki> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64682&oldid=64505 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+2620) Elevators.
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03:02:08 <Sgeo_> "If you decide that your users have had enough browsing for one day, you can even cause their browser to quit. An example script shows how to link actions to some of the events included in the object model. Be careful before you try this out, because your browser will quit."
03:02:36 <Sgeo_> https://ia802904.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=/7/items/ACTIVEX_FOR_DUMMIES/ACTIVE_X.iso&file=CHAP13%2FINDEX.HTM
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03:18:37 <shachaf> ski: Have you seen https://home.sandiego.edu/~shulman/papers/lcm-bloomington-talk.pdf ?
03:18:54 <shachaf> Also other people here who like linear or constructive logic, or who like good things.
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04:05:31 <\oren\> Idea, end all statements with ~.\n
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04:07:06 <\oren\> oh, wait ssh is configurable with that thing
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08:52:03 <Taneb> What time zone are you in currently?
08:53:49 <cpressey> BST, but isn't there some IRC command you can run to find that out?
08:54:37 <Taneb> You can do it with CTCP but that always feels rude to me
08:54:50 <cpressey> I suppose it's equally easy to just ask, if you prefer the human touch.
08:55:20 <Taneb> BST is a good time zone to be in, I feel
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09:03:22 <cpressey> Yesterday, I learned that there are some theories that have only one model (up to isomorphism), they're called "categorical" theories, and this pleases me greatly, because non-standard models kind of freak me out and I'd rather not think about them.
09:04:02 <cpressey> Granted, a lot of them sound kind of trviial
09:06:49 <cpressey> (the categorical theories that is, not the non-standard models. quite the opposite actually.)
09:09:49 <shachaf> cpressey: You can ask where someone's IRC client is, but not where they are.
09:15:12 <cpressey> shachaf: In a similar vein, you can ask me where I claim I am, but not where I actually am.
09:15:47 <Taneb> I claim to be in Cambridge
09:16:36 <shachaf> cpressey: Yes, but I'd much rather know where you claim you are than where your IRC client claims it is.
09:16:46 <shachaf> I mean, I don't actually particularly want to know either one.
09:17:49 <shachaf> I might go to Cambridge in a few months.
09:19:50 <Taneb> I might leave for unrelated reasons
09:24:42 <cpressey> The thought of visiting Cambridge crossed my mind briefly, recently, but mainly because I saw a train destined for there. I have no good reason to visit there myself.
09:26:21 <cpressey> If I visit anywhere, it's more likely to be, I dunno, Cheddar.
09:27:21 <cpressey> For the cave art. Also, I understand there's a cheese from that region?
09:41:38 <cpressey> Stupid question -- how to tell if one theory A is more expressive than some other theory B? I mean, the trivial answer is, find something you can express in A that you can't express in B, but -- do logicians have a nomenclature for this, a study of this?
09:43:07 <cpressey> Computability and complexity has its classes like RE, R, PR, NEXP, NP, P, NL, etc, and we know some of the relations between them and there are some diagrams, etc.
09:43:18 <cpressey> Do logicians have anything comparable?
09:44:32 <cpressey> Again, I understand you can map a lot of logics to these classes too, and that would count, but is there anywhere they've written a lot of them down?
09:44:44 <cpressey> "Complexity zoo" except for logical theories?
09:52:27 <cpressey> So-called Reverse Mathematics has a collection of theories and understand some of the relationships between them, but they're most interested in really weak theories
10:17:03 <cpressey> I think perhaps there are simply too damned many of them (logical theories, that is) for this to be realistically done.
11:23:16 <cpressey> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descriptive_complexity_theory <-- closest I've found so far.
11:26:27 <cpressey> wooo! https://people.cs.umass.edu/~immerman/
11:26:51 <cpressey> or rather, https://people.cs.umass.edu/~immerman/descriptive_complexity.html
11:27:44 <cpressey> *Now* my question becomes, where does http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EquationalLogic.html fit into that chart?
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12:14:17 <wob_jonas> cpressey: I think the answer is yes but I don't understand the details. "Proof-theoretic ordinal" may be a relevant keyword.
12:15:25 <wob_jonas> cpressey: I looked a bit at this julia language. It seems like it might be useful as a "calculator language", for when I want to do computations that start as simple as (2*8) but sometimes grow to five line long one-liners doing array operations. I've sometimes used J or octave for that. But
12:16:28 <wob_jonas> I have one big problem. WHY DOES IT USE ONE-BASED ARRAY INDEXING? Seriously? Haven't people seen the existing languages that do that (matlab or octave, lua, GAP, mathematica) and see how they turned out and how fucking annoying it is that you have to add 1 to your indexes or subtract 1 from them after searching whenever you do anything nontrivial?
12:17:31 <wob_jonas> I really don't understand why anyone would do that when designing a new language that doesn't have to be too compatible with anything existing, and especially not why someone would do that if the language is supposed to be useful for numeric or array computations.
12:18:47 <wob_jonas> So yes, this sort of language with a handy built-in library for numeric computations sounds helpful for doing calculations, but the one-based array indexing seriously scares me away.
12:22:04 <wob_jonas> As for whether it's better for this than octave, I'll have to dig a bit deeper.
12:22:27 <cpressey> wob_jonas: if you hate 1-based indexing you can check out https://github.com/simonster/TwoBasedIndexing.jl
12:24:11 <cpressey> I think the joke there is that Julia's macro support is quite good.
12:24:24 <wob_jonas> yeah. esoteric people sometimes do that. I think some old versions of perl had that built in too.
12:25:12 <wob_jonas> But the problem is that it's not enough to override the index and index-assign operations, because there are a lot of other library functions that manipulate indexes, like for finding and slicing and filtering and stuff.
12:25:16 <cpressey> Perl lets you select the index base by assigning to a magic variable iirc
12:25:49 <wob_jonas> I think modern versions have an improved version of that, where you can change it lexically, but only to 0 and 1
12:26:11 <wob_jonas> but that kind of thing doesn't make sense to change either dynamically (as in old perl or some APLs) or lexically,
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12:26:26 <wob_jonas> mostly because you often store array indexes in other arrays, or pass them to functions, etc.
12:26:36 <cpressey> Apparently Mathematica uses 1-based. And so does R. Julia is in the same general area ("big data" "stats" "numerical computing"). So, probably that.
12:26:54 <wob_jonas> cpressey: yes, I mentioned mathematica in the list above.
12:28:04 <wob_jonas> I didn't know that R does, I have so far avoided that language.
12:28:11 <cpressey> Well, some people hate qwerty keyboards too, because qwerty is awful and WRONG and etc and everyone around me including myself is using a qwerty keyboard oh well
12:29:47 <wob_jonas> so? you can mix keyboard layouts is easy, because, unless perhaps you're playing video games, the things you type on the keyboard get translated to characters very early, you don't store keycodes anywhere. mixing array indexes is harder, because I do want to store indexes and pass them to all sorts of utility functions and do arithmetic on them.
12:30:16 <wob_jonas> I don't care what keyboard layout other people use.
12:30:24 <arseniiv> 1-based indexing has the only one plus side that you can index from the end by negative integers (the Python indexing scheme is in some cases irregular), though I thing backward indexing should not abuse signs at all and use something else (as e. g. in last versions of C#)
12:30:41 <wob_jonas> When I speak on irc, you can't really tell what keyboard layout I used to type it, and you can read it just as easily regardless how I type it.
12:30:43 <cpressey> OK, well. I don't care about that. I think the interesting things in Julia are its macro system and its type system. And these are interesting to examine, not necessarily useful to use, for any given application.
12:31:31 <cpressey> That's why I suggested to check it out. If you find it useful, too, great. If not, ok, well, sorry.
12:31:38 <wob_jonas> cpressey: I don't know yet if I find it useful.
12:31:53 <wob_jonas> I might, in the sense that it may still be more practical to use than octave.
12:32:03 <wob_jonas> I'll definitely look at it a bit more.
12:34:11 <wob_jonas> Lua gives some useful lessons, like it's a good example of how you can design a good C api that can work with a moving garbage collector, which is pretty rare as these things go.
12:34:32 <wob_jonas> But there's a lot of other things in lua that I don't like, besides the 1-based indexes.
12:36:00 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: statements not being expressions?
12:36:02 <cpressey> arseniiv: the negative indexing and slicing in Python reminds me of Perl.
12:36:08 <cpressey> x[:-1] is virtually an emoticon
12:36:40 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: no, that's not really my problem
12:37:15 <wob_jonas> but I don't really want to talk about lua here unless there's a good reason
12:37:25 <wob_jonas> I just brought it up as another example for 1-based stuff
12:37:33 <arseniiv> cpressey: ah, for ASCII-artness? For my part, I definitely find the ubiquitous x[::] copying or x[::-1] reversal ASCII-arty
12:37:51 <arseniiv> oh, x[:], x[::] is redundant of course
12:38:16 <cpressey> well, ASCII-artness, and general tendency towards golfing
12:39:56 <HackEso> bash: line 0: type: julia: not found
12:41:53 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: okay, I don’t mind at all. I had learned Lua to some depth once (and now I almost forgot it) and it felt a nice example of a minimal language. For some reason I was surprised by size of its grammar. Though it seems I had known about S-expression grammar to that time, and it should be way smaller. I hadn’t used Lua even for smallest projects though
12:43:20 <arseniiv> that time, I found quirks of length operator, or what it were, pretty strange. I skimmed some details about newest versions not that long ago and didn’t find that piece there for some reason
12:43:45 <wob_jonas> and yes, octave and R are probably better examples, because they are geared to the same kind of numerical computation for which julia was made for
12:43:56 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: which generation of the length operator? that changed like twice throughout lua
12:44:21 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I don’t remember, alas
12:54:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 251220Z AUTO 13008KT 100V170 9999 NCD 36/17 Q1010
12:54:31 <fizzie> It is: too hot. They're saying there's a 70% chance of exceeding the hottest temperature ever recorded in the UK (38.5°C) today.
12:54:54 <wob_jonas> Also, apparently julia uses a variant of python scoping for local variables, except that some control structures (for and while) make inner scopes like def in python
12:58:09 <wob_jonas> in that in python, an assignment without a qualifier means that a new variable is created for that scope
12:58:30 <wob_jonas> that seems like probably a better rule than julia's in the long term, even if possibly less convenient in shorter pieces of code
12:58:48 <wob_jonas> so yeah, they're not similar at all
13:48:08 <cpressey> I'm not much of a fan of Python's "now 'til the end of the definition" scoping. I prefer it when variables in inner blocks disppear when you return to the outer block. I don't remember what Julia does for that.
13:50:24 <cpressey> Meanwhile, Javascript: you can define variables at the *end* of the block if you like!
14:14:59 <cpressey> btw wob_jonas thanks for "Proof-theoretic ordinal", it certainly seems to fit into the picture I'm looking at
14:17:40 <wob_jonas> cpressey: MathOverflow seems to have a lot of people who care about that sort of crazy formal logic stuff, at least when filtered through my perception
14:23:44 <cpressey> I occasionally read MO (I'm a sucker for SE's "hot network questions" when I have to look up something) and, yeah, they're like that there aren't they. I've been increasingly interested in logic lately, but set theory not so much.
14:25:56 <wob_jonas> cpressey: also I keep reading David Madore's blog, in fact it's very high up there among websites I've been following for the longest time, and he sometimes talks about that sort of thing
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16:18:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64687&oldid=64684 * Areallycoolusername * (+1300)
16:24:28 <esowiki> [[Realm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64688&oldid=64433 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Fixed some mistakes
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17:00:10 <esowiki> [[User:Sideshowbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64689&oldid=64619 * Sideshowbob * (+263)
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18:08:33 <Reallycooluserna> Can anyone give me tips as to how to make a good C++ Compiler?
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19:09:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Sidex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=64690 * Plokmijnuhby * (+533) Asked for some clarification
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19:50:45 <doesthiswork> Reallycooluserna: The more code you reject as causing undefined behavior the better your compiler is
19:51:19 <b_jonas> doesthiswork: so the best compiler is one that considers any code to cause undefined behaviour?
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20:42:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64691&oldid=64690 * Plokmijnuhby * (+95) /* Language explanation */ Added my signature.
20:47:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Argv0 * New user account
20:56:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swissen Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64692&oldid=64469 * Plokmijnuhby * (+649)
20:58:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64693&oldid=64591 * Argv0 * (+150) /* Introductions */
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21:31:38 <esowiki> [[Realm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64694&oldid=64688 * Plokmijnuhby * (+91) /* Examples */ Truth test
21:32:20 <esowiki> [[Realm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64695&oldid=64694 * Plokmijnuhby * (+3) /* Truth-test */ Wrong link
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22:54:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64696&oldid=64687 * A * (+595) /* Race conditions */
22:56:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64697&oldid=64696 * A * (+179) /* Race conditions */
22:59:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64698&oldid=64697 * A * (+95) /* Race conditions */
23:04:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64699&oldid=64698 * A * (+4) /* Race conditions */ Tell ARCUN I have created a separate page
23:09:06 <esowiki> [[Nop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64700&oldid=64653 * A * (+95) I think the SM is a nop machine (prove me wrong if you could)
23:09:29 <esowiki> [[Nop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64701&oldid=64700 * A * (+0) Oops
23:15:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64702&oldid=64691 * A * (+499)
23:17:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64703&oldid=64699 * A * (+14) /* Deadlocking */
23:18:56 <esowiki> [[Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64704&oldid=64685 * A * (-391) /* stopThisThread.Sidex */
23:19:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64705&oldid=64702 * A * (+174)
23:21:52 <esowiki> [[Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64706&oldid=64704 * A * (+179) /* More concurrency */
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23:23:27 <esowiki> [[Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64707&oldid=64706 * A * (+29) /* if.Sidex */
23:23:53 <esowiki> [[Sidex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64708&oldid=64707 * A * (-12) /* if.Sidex */
23:33:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=64709&oldid=64703 * A * (+77) /* Deadlocking */
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