←2019-08-13 2019-08-14 2019-08-15→ ↑2019 ↑all
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00:29:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65481&oldid=65468 * Areallycoolusername * (+414)
00:31:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65482&oldid=65481 * Areallycoolusername * (+320) /* Re: Your Comment On My Github Pull Request */
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00:50:43 <ARCUN> Does anyone know how I can aquire an original Commodore 64?
00:51:41 <Hooloovo0> I assume you're looking for it on the cheap?
00:51:55 <ARCUN> Yeah
00:52:15 <Hooloovo0> I'm not really sure... ebay is probably not your best bet for that... not sure what is
00:52:34 <Hooloovo0> it's not like it's an extremely rare machine, though
00:53:20 <ARCUN> I might ask cpressey. I bet he would know, as he already has one
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01:32:30 <esowiki> [[ABC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65483&oldid=63966 * Dtuser1337 * (-3) fixing the code in hello world
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02:40:20 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65484&oldid=63614 * Dtuser1337 * (+15)
02:40:38 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65485&oldid=65484 * Dtuser1337 * (-15) Undo revision 65484 by [[Special:Contributions/Dtuser1337|Dtuser1337]] ([[User talk:Dtuser1337|talk]])
02:41:04 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65486&oldid=65485 * Dtuser1337 * (+23)
02:41:15 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65487&oldid=65486 * Dtuser1337 * (+1)
02:43:20 <esowiki> [[ABC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65488&oldid=65483 * Dtuser1337 * (+6) much better, i guess?
02:45:02 <esowiki> [[ABC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65489&oldid=65488 * Dtuser1337 * (+13) /* Discussions */
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02:54:57 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65490&oldid=65452 * Dtuser1337 * (-1) /* Lua */
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03:11:05 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65491&oldid=65487 * Dtuser1337 * (+43)
03:12:23 <esowiki> [[ABC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65492&oldid=65489 * Dtuser1337 * (+43)
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07:58:22 <cpressey> `? concurrency
07:58:24 <HackEso> concurrency? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:02:18 <int-e> controversial currency?
08:02:27 <int-e> `? password
08:02:28 <HackEso> The password of the month is surprising.
08:02:42 <cpressey> I would have guess that it's the categorical dual of ncurrency.
08:03:11 <int-e> that's too categorical for me this early in the morning
08:04:00 <int-e> `grwp daul
08:04:04 <HackEso> No output.
08:04:05 <int-e> `grwp dual
08:04:09 <HackEso> block device:Block devices are a concession made in Unix to make raw hard disks and magnetic tape have a similar interface to regular files and terminals. Since magnetic tapes can't write individual bytes, only entire blocks, the interface isn't exactly the same, thus the dreaded dd obs= option was born. \ comonad:Comonads are just monads in the dual category. They are hard to get into. \ elrond:Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Ma
08:04:46 <int-e> Hah I didn't expect "individual".
08:07:40 <myname> the password of the month reminds me of a situation i had during apprenticeship. i needed to decide for a password and somebody said "i am going to type anything" and i said "brilliant. out new password will be 'anything'"
08:07:41 <shachaf> `2 grwp dual
08:07:42 <HackEso> 2/3:he Matrix, eventually gaining increased individuality and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves. \ nundrum:A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless. \ palindrome:A palindrome is a word that remains the same if you take it to the mirror dimension, and then take each individual letter back to the normal dimension separately. \ sober space:Sober spaces are the dual of Stoned spaces. Taneb invented them.
08:07:57 <shachaf> `n
08:07:57 <HackEso> 3/3: \ splay:Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume.
08:11:12 <shachaf> int-e: Do you not even like adjunctions?
08:12:24 <cpressey> `? adjunction
08:12:25 <HackEso> adjunction? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:13:07 <cpressey> `? adjoint
08:13:08 <HackEso> adjoint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:13:29 <shachaf> `grWp adjunction
08:13:30 <HackEso> No output.
08:13:32 <shachaf> `grWp adjoint
08:13:33 <HackEso> No output.
08:13:56 <shachaf> `1 grWp universal
08:13:58 <HackEso> 1/1:pikachu:Pikachu is a universal quantifier for Chu spaces. \ universal property:Universal properties are the best.
08:14:05 <cpressey> The wiki has a link to the IRC channel, which contains its own wiki
08:16:02 <shachaf> What would the existential quantifier for Chu spaces be?
08:17:51 <cpressey> Gesundheit. Because it's a witness to a Chu.
08:18:01 <cpressey> I'll show myself out
08:18:53 <b_jonas> one of those is a b_jonaswisdom too
08:18:59 <b_jonas> the dome is full of them
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08:20:28 <shachaf> Presumably it's //block device//
08:20:34 <shachaf> `cwlprits block device
08:20:36 <HackEso> b_jonäs
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08:44:05 <cpressey> shachaf: I read your writeup about error handling. The thing it reminded me the most of, I guess, is Haskell's Data.Either, especially how can be used as a monad, to make it "flat".
08:46:01 <int-e> lambdabot: did you nudge cpressey about my Wagon efforts? ;-)
08:48:31 <cpressey> int-e: Ah yes it did. My fault for not knowing how my IRC client works.
08:50:24 <cpressey> int-e: Very cool. I'll have to test it out when I get a moment.
08:52:30 <shachaf> cpressey: Yes, though I feel like monads don't quite deliver on their promise for this sort of thing.
08:52:40 <shachaf> For example monad transformers are a mess.
08:53:44 <shachaf> Haskell functions also don't have an implicit place for "return" to be lexically bound to like e.g. C functions.
08:53:58 <shachaf> So instead it behaves dynamically bound like exceptions.
08:58:11 <cpressey> *brow furrows* I think you want "return" to be dynamically bound, otherwise, you can only call the function from one place? I must be misunderstanding you.
08:59:05 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess the thing I'm talking about is something in between.
08:59:06 <int-e> we're in a bind and I don't know what it is
08:59:19 <shachaf> It has to do with a thing I haven't figured out yet.
08:59:42 <int-e> (I don't know what you mean by "dynamically bound" here)
08:59:47 <shachaf> What I mean is: When you see the keyword "return", you can look at the program statically and figure out where it'll jump to.
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09:00:13 <shachaf> Or the compiler can do it.
09:00:16 <int-e> you can?
09:00:40 <shachaf> Can't you?
09:00:49 <int-e> 'return' is as dynamic as you get in C... the function could be called from anywhere.
09:01:01 <shachaf> Oh, I just mean you can see which block it returns from.
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09:01:19 <shachaf> int foo() { if (...) return 0; ... } -- you can tell that that return returns from foo.
09:01:28 <shachaf> Whereas "Left 0" could be going anywhere.
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09:01:52 <shachaf> Maybe this isn't really fair to say, though.
09:03:11 <int-e> Left 0 >> ... will end up inside ... "next", for some value of "next".
09:03:29 <cpressey> shachaf: You can find the set of callpoints it can potentially return to, and you could, for instance, insist that some condition pertains at all those points... this is sometimes called having an effect system.
09:03:54 <int-e> It's really entirely different from 'return' in C.
09:04:14 <cpressey> which block it returns *from* should be... lexical?
09:04:28 * cpressey tries to imagine a language in which it is not
09:04:37 <shachaf> I agree that it's pretty different, but they were presented as similar?
09:04:43 <int-e> cpressey: INTERCAL, I suppose
09:05:11 <shachaf> There's the similarity where you can write: "foo = either id id $ do { ...; when p (Left x); ... }" to implement early exit.
09:05:14 <int-e> cpressey: and maybe aspect-oriented programming as a paradigm? I don't know enough about that.
09:06:15 <shachaf> cpressey: I think the more direct analogy is maybe delimited continuations.
09:06:21 <int-e> (but arguably even if you don't know where you're coming from and where you'll go next, all imperative programming languages have a notion of "here, right now")
09:07:13 <cpressey> int-e: dear god, an aspect that can splice in a return statement...
09:09:44 <shachaf> Man. I should figure out all my half-coherent language ideas.
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09:10:31 <int-e> shachaf: better you than us ;-)
09:11:02 <shachaf> I should just type them all into the channel and have you figure them out for me.
09:12:22 <int-e> I thought that was what you were doing already.
09:12:59 <shachaf> Only occasionally.
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09:42:38 <wob_jonas> cpressey: yeah, in current languages you can do that only by explicit call-ec objects or similar. but I can imagine a language where some of those keywords (return, next/last/redo/retry) use an implicit lexical variable and can refer to the outer named function where the block/lambda was created
09:43:19 <wob_jonas> but since I mostly program in a goto-less style, this doesn't come up often
09:45:01 <wob_jonas> you'd also need loop labels and goto labels to generate exit variables that can be bound by closures even if they go to an outer function, but at that point they become full call/cc continuations, because you can jump to them even after the block that contains them has exited
09:45:15 <wob_jonas> and that may be the main reason why that's not usually implemented\
09:47:54 <wob_jonas> I imagine this would most likely happen in a golf language, since they don't care too much about an efficient runtime, they might mix all sorts of paradigms and primitives that you rarely use but always add a lot of overhead to the interpreter, so eg. many slot assignments are always backtrackable just in case you use prolog-style backtracking, eve
09:47:55 <wob_jonas> rything can be pointed to by weak references, every number could contain a symbolic formula, you have full call/cc everywhere, etc
09:48:22 <shachaf> wob_jonas: This is related to the things we talked about a while ago.
09:48:54 <cpressey> shachaf: Have you ever worked out how to code a conventional try/except-type exception handler in continuation-passing style, as an exercise?
09:49:37 <shachaf> I think I have a good idea of how it'd go?
09:49:53 <shachaf> I have not done it.
09:56:22 <cpressey> Basically, you have a regular continuation and an exception continuation. Every time you try, you extend the exception continuation. Every time you throw, you continue on the exception continuation instead of the regular one.
09:58:41 <shachaf> Oh, sure, that thing.
09:58:54 <shachaf> This is how JavaScript people write their programs by hand anyway.
09:59:35 <shachaf> Presumably this is equivalent to the Either thing?
10:00:00 <shachaf> "... -> (success -> r) -> (failure -> r) -> r"
10:00:20 <shachaf> "... -> (Either success failure -> r) -> r"
10:00:55 <shachaf> Which you can further turn into "... -> Either success failure" if you're using r parametrically.
10:03:08 <cpressey> I think you can compare it to a lot of things, I was thinking of it as more of a good place to start thinking about: how would you make this better? (You seem to want something better.)
10:04:09 <shachaf> Hmm, I think exceptions are probably a bad idea in the first place, so I'm not sure why you'd start there.
10:04:28 <shachaf> I guess writing it by hand is more explicit than exceptions, at least.
10:04:48 <cpressey> You're still writing the moral equivalent of "try" and "throw", aren't you?
10:05:28 <shachaf> I'm not sure what the moral value of "try" and "throw" is.
10:05:41 <shachaf> I think the main goal should be something where it's as easy as possible to read the code and see how control flow can happen.
10:06:07 <cpressey> You have code that can signal an error. You have code that can handle an error. Those are the moral values of "throw" and "try" respectively.
10:06:21 <cpressey> If you don't have those, well.
10:06:23 <shachaf> How can you tell whether code can signal an error?
10:06:45 <wob_jonas> shachaf: be more specific, what things that who talked about a while ago?
10:06:51 <cpressey> If you can't tell if code has encountered an error or not, you've got worse problems than this!
10:06:56 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Geo and that sort of thing.
10:07:26 <shachaf> I guess the exception answer is "based on types" (checked exceptions) or "anything can signal an error at any time" (unchecked exceptions).
10:07:34 <wob_jonas> cpressey: no, not an either. you want to non-local exit through all the stack frames that don't catch exceptions
10:07:49 <wob_jonas> so you'd have a global variable that stores the continuation where you have to jump when you throw
10:08:06 <cpressey> wob_jonas: as I said, I think you can compare it to a lot of things :)
10:08:07 <wob_jonas> and a try statement sets that global variable but saves its old value
10:08:21 <cpressey> I didn't say it was very similar though :)
10:10:12 <cpressey> Forcing it all into Either is like forcing all your non-local exits into local-exits-and-always-checking-the-exit-code
10:13:51 <shachaf> I feel like if your error handling system is made of indirect jumps it's already too complicated, or something.
10:13:57 <cpressey> using Either is a lot more like shell programming where you say (echo 'hi' && touch foo && cat foo) || echo 'badness'
10:14:28 <wob_jonas> note that this only works well if you have a dynamic-unwind that you can use to run destructors as the stack is rolled off, otherwise you have to rewrite all destructors (and all python-with statement) into a try
10:14:33 <wob_jonas> int a try-finally
10:14:54 <wob_jonas> shachaf: wait, how is geo relevant for that?
10:15:10 <cpressey> wob_jonas: yeah, you have to weave destructors into your exception continuation too
10:15:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, geo doesn't allow jumping out from inside a lambda block
10:15:36 <cpressey> ooc, what's Geo?
10:15:46 <wob_jonas> it wouldn't even if it implemented lambdas
10:16:03 <wob_jonas> geo only allows you to break to the innermost block, and a function would count as such an innermost block
10:16:22 <wob_jonas> or did we talk about a hypothetical extension that would allow jumping out farther with block labels? hmm
10:16:29 <wob_jonas> that may have happened, I'll have to look at the logs
10:16:53 <wob_jonas> cpressey: one of the old toy languages that I once birthed into existence but now I'm ashemed of the details and my excuse is that I was young
10:16:56 <wob_jonas> see the wiki
10:16:57 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo
10:17:03 <wob_jonas> the other one is scan
10:17:09 <cpressey> wob_jonas: thx
10:17:13 <wob_jonas> and there's a third one that's lost
10:17:26 <wob_jonas> and a fourth one which is called psz
10:17:33 <shachaf> I don't mean Geo, just the things I was talking about when we were talking about Geo.
10:17:36 <shachaf> Or something.
10:17:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, it's possible
10:17:54 <wob_jonas> I think ruby would be particularly well suited for this
10:18:02 <wob_jonas> at least old ruby, before 1.9 came along
10:18:03 <shachaf> I think the Ruby solution is terrible.
10:18:15 <shachaf> The whole proc vs. lambda thing is such a mess.
10:18:31 <shachaf> Hmm, does Ruby implement function return with exceptions?
10:18:33 <wob_jonas> sure, I agree, ruby is terrible
10:25:00 <shachaf> Hmm, I should go to sleep.
10:25:14 <shachaf> But in the future I should ask about one of the big things I'm trying to figure out.
10:26:04 <wob_jonas> gl with that
10:26:24 <Taneb> I would like to go to sleep right now but sadly it is not going to sleep time here
10:26:35 <Taneb> It's not even being asleep time
10:29:52 <shachaf> @time Taneb
10:30:00 <shachaf> @time
10:30:04 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed Aug 14 03:30:01 2019
10:30:08 <Taneb> 11:30
10:30:18 <shachaf> Uh oh. It's way past going to sleep time.
10:30:24 <shachaf> I guess I can't go to sleep now.
10:30:33 <Taneb> You should retroactively be asleep
10:31:19 <shachaf> Good idea.
10:38:26 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65493&oldid=61623 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Pre-program delcarations */
10:39:24 <wob_jonas> `datei
10:39:24 <HackEso> 2019-08-14 10:39:24.695076581 +0000 UTC August 14 Wednesday 2019-W33-3
10:39:37 <wob_jonas> it's not sleep time, it's work time
10:43:53 <cpressey> Given a function, I would like to get a list of all exceptions that could possibly be raised by that function, and from where, and (ideally) for what reasons. You could devise a static analysis that does this. It'd be more of an analysis tool than a language feature though.
10:45:56 <wob_jonas> that's very often all exceptions, if the function takes a callback
10:46:30 <int-e> potentially minus a few
10:46:43 <wob_jonas> or if it calls a virtual method or otherwise does some dynamic call where you can't determine the target of the call statically
10:47:38 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65494&oldid=65477 * Ais523 non-admin * (-4) Undo revision 65477 by [[Special:Contributions/Lucas|Lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]): the word's being used here in a slightly different sense to in the linked article, so linking it is here probably more confusing than useful at the moment
10:49:56 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65495&oldid=65476 * Ais523 non-admin * (+10) people generally dislike unmarked external/cross-namespace links here; technically the link is marked by being a slightly different shade of blue, but it's a clue that most people miss
10:51:50 <cpressey> Yeah, I wouldn't expect to get very useful results when running it on foldl...
10:52:58 <int-e> you could still do something like: exceptions thrown by arguments + exceptions found by static analysis - exceptions handled
10:53:38 <wob_jonas> but it's not just arguments
10:53:39 <int-e> where the first term is treated as symbolic.
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11:12:37 <cpressey> yeah, not just arguments, anything that you determine you can't statically analyze (but you can report those callsites too). Vaguely interested now, looking at if there are any static analysis frameworks for Python.
11:12:59 <cpressey> I guess there's the ast module
11:16:48 <cpressey> ugh, decorators
11:17:47 <cpressey> well, maybe someday
11:20:00 <cpressey> https://python-ast-explorer.com/ if anyone is interested in what its AST looks like presently.
11:22:44 <myname> that rotating logo is oddly satisfying
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11:24:44 <int-e> ... why does webGL not work ... oh, graphics driver update. hrm :)
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11:25:19 <int-e> I was going to check whether http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius8.html still works :P
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12:34:26 <esowiki> [[Disan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65496&oldid=56724 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) Why, A, why did you make such this page....
12:34:57 <esowiki> [[Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65497&oldid=56401 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT languages
12:35:25 <esowiki> [[ParrBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65498&oldid=13826 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) Don't forget +CAT languages
12:42:52 <esowiki> [[Jumpback]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65499&oldid=43383 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT languages
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14:00:44 <cpressey> https://catseye.tc/installation/PL-%7BGOTO%7D running in a web page at last, by the magic of the Haste compile
14:01:03 <cpressey> r
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14:51:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shakil t * New user account
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15:49:03 <wob_jonas> by the way, ICFP contest results will be available during the long weekend
15:49:35 <Taneb> "the long weekend" sounds like an event in the backstory of a post-apocalypting story
15:49:48 <Taneb> "Ever since the Long Weekend, we have never known peace"
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15:54:56 <int-e> mm
15:57:47 <wob_jonas> Taneb: no, I just call any weekend that is longer than 48 hours as long weekend. they last 49 hours, 72 hours, 73 hours, 96 hours, 97 hours, 120 hours, or even 144 hours.
15:58:51 <Taneb> OK
15:59:03 <cpressey> Since Saturday ends the week and Sunday begins a new week, I object to calling the unit as a whole a "weekend".
15:59:22 <Taneb> I object to weeks that begin on Sunday
15:59:40 <wob_jonas> 49 or 73 hours is only possible near --10-28, and 120 or 144 hours is only possible near --12-25
16:00:13 <wob_jonas> cpressey: we use Monday as the start of the week, which makes more sense exactly because of this
16:01:10 <cpressey> Well, that's okay then.
16:01:15 <Taneb> wob_jonas: what's the significance of --10-28?
16:01:20 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.).
16:01:29 <int-e> Taneb: dst switch
16:01:37 <Taneb> Ah, yes
16:01:40 <wob_jonas> yaeh, timezone offset switch
16:01:49 <int-e> wob_jonas: don't you miss some 24k - 1 variants?
16:01:59 <Taneb> Also Day of the Establishment of an Independent Czecho-Slovak State
16:02:13 <int-e> (I mean things 71)
16:03:48 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, those are possible too
16:04:42 <wob_jonas> 71 hours, and now 95 hours is possible too
16:27:04 <wob_jonas> `perl -eprint 8*0.0245
16:27:05 <HackEso> 0.196
16:27:28 <Taneb> Dumb idea: IRC client that lets you write comments in the logs
16:27:45 <Taneb> That are displayed but not actually sent
16:28:04 <wob_jonas> Taneb: irssi already does that, with the /echo command
16:28:17 <Taneb> wob_jonas: aha
16:28:22 <wob_jonas> useful in macros where you may want to print something other than what you send or receive
16:32:08 <kmc> doesn't end up in the log, though
16:32:45 <wob_jonas> that depends on how you set up the log I think
16:32:48 <wob_jonas> there's some filtering options
16:33:05 <wob_jonas> you can also send invalid commands to the server if you want
16:33:28 <kmc> i see
16:33:36 <wob_jonas> or messages to a channel that is invite-only and only you are joined
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16:45:45 <kmc> if you just want to write to a log you can PM yourself
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18:18:55 <shachaf> `olist 1175
18:18:56 <HackEso> olist 1175: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:25:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65500&oldid=65482 * Areallycoolusername * (+345)
18:32:33 <b_jonas> o!
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21:36:40 <b_jonas> It's sometimes interesting to experience history backwards. NES Metroid is quite a good port of Super Metroid to a simpler hardware. Super Metroid is huge, so obviously Metroid can't have everything from it, but it does a really good job of showing as much of what we love as possible. Many things in it a really recognizable.
21:38:47 <b_jonas> It's a pity they had to cut the MB phase 2 and 3
21:42:04 <b_jonas> But apart from that, Tourian is a particularly faithful representation (even if, according to the story, it's a different Tourian than in Super Metroid)
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