01:29:58 <int-e> zzo38: we can't be sure that an md5sum quine exists for that particular case.
01:31:28 <int-e> This is all theoretical anyway.
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01:54:09 <int-e> shachaf: Ah that was the chance that no such quine exists. Math is hard.
01:56:21 <int-e> b_jonas: progress: wc quine.s2i --> 15577 123672 574944 quine.s2i (down from 36687 291488 1354436)
01:56:56 <int-e> and it takes less than 20 minutes to run now too. :)
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02:12:55 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65608&oldid=65581 * A * (+579)
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03:31:06 <zzo38> Now I wrote this instruction set document: https://arin.ga/3RKb8w
03:39:06 <moony> zzo38: what exactly is this arch for
03:40:14 <zzo38> Nothing; I just made it up because I thought to write something
05:00:01 <zzo38> Do you have any other comments or just ":P"?
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06:14:35 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65609&oldid=65608 * A * (+103)
06:19:34 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65610&oldid=65609 * A * (+74)
06:21:38 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65611&oldid=65610 * A * (-1)
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07:05:56 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65613&oldid=65612 * A * (+72)
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07:48:33 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65614&oldid=65613 * A * (+19)
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09:11:48 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65615&oldid=65614 * A * (+136)
09:18:04 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65616&oldid=65588 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Emoji-gramming */ formatting variable just in case.
09:19:15 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65617&oldid=65615 * A * (+181)
09:30:17 <int-e> b_jonas: still working on that, 9520 lines now, and I have one significant idea left...
09:32:04 <int-e> (getting below 10k is nice because it shortens the labels)
09:36:03 <int-e> (I'm really writing Haskell code, of course.)
09:36:46 <int-e> I have a code generation monad and `mdo`s everywhere...
09:40:27 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1097189/ is the non-creative part, just the monad and pretty-printing, and support for strings.
09:44:56 <int-e> shachaf: it's great for dealing with forward references!@
09:45:34 <int-e> mdo goto x; char 'z'; x <- lab <* char 'x'; return ()
09:49:15 <shachaf> i,i { Label x = new_label(); goto(x); ...; set_label(x); ... }
09:50:27 <int-e> yes that's probably what I'd do without lazy evaluation.
09:51:17 <shachaf> I wonder what a nicer way to express that without laziness is.
09:51:29 <int-e> shachaf: note also that this is one of those use cases where performance really hardly matters. If I get my quine in a second I'm happy.
10:44:50 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65618&oldid=65617 * A * (+42)
11:00:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: write it as { x:; ...; come_from(x); ... } then there's no forward reference
11:19:17 <int-e> Okay, I'm seriously reaching the point of diminishing returns. (Or the point of no return, who knows.)
11:20:17 <int-e> So I'll stop here, at 8940 lines.
11:37:27 <int-e> b_jonas: https://gist.github.com/int-e/57eefc6cce29ed47ddaaca13a0774533
11:37:37 <int-e> it takes less than 6 minutes now
11:37:50 <int-e> So still slow, but much better than where I started :)
11:40:30 <int-e> (a faster interpreter would help too)
11:41:01 <int-e> > 100 / (36687/9130)^2
11:41:12 <int-e> roughly quadratic :)
11:41:34 <int-e> > 100 / (36687/8940)^2
11:58:49 <int-e> b_jonas: I actually developed full boolean operations for SMETANA (representing booleans by pairs of operations... the second one is there so that they can be negated) but for the quine I got rid of most of that infrastructure.
12:36:10 <esowiki> [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65619&oldid=64372 * Int-e * (+262) link to quine
12:58:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65620&oldid=65602 * A * (-389) My brain went stupid.
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14:03:01 <b_jonas> Can you recommend me a firefox plugin where I can set rules to rewrite urls when I follow a link, to load a different page instead? This is something that perhaps ais523 would like too, with his local copy of rust documentation.
14:03:42 <b_jonas> I need it for the url of top-level pages only, not for frames/images/stylesheets
14:04:42 <zzo38> I use moz-rewrite, which can also rewrite request and response headers too
14:05:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: thanks, I'll try that
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14:53:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: is that a firefox add-on? my firefox browser doesn't seem to find it under that name
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15:06:42 <zzo38> It is Firefox add-on
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15:57:27 <esowiki> [[SMETANA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65621&oldid=49752 * Int-e * (+34) /* Computational class */ SMETANA can iterate, putting it into the LBA class rather than mere decision trees.
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16:25:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:SMETANA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65622&oldid=8203 * Int-e * (+2388) Boolean-oriented programming in SMETANA
16:27:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:SMETANA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65623&oldid=65622 * Int-e * (-3) /* Basic Programming */ formatting (should have previewed)
16:28:09 <int-e> Okay, I think I'm done with SMETANA / SMETANA To Infinity!
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17:25:48 <ais523> <shachaf> Are there interesting esolangs where you don't have the property that you can easily make a program longer/different with something like a nop? ← languages like the I/D machine and cyclic tag, adding a byte anywhere normally implies restructuring the rest of the program to accommodate it (but there are fairly well-established techniques for doing so)
17:26:07 <ais523> assuming you treat comments as either not permitted or not NOPs
17:28:35 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't that only if you don't originally plan for that and don't put enough padding statements?
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17:29:48 <ais523> b_jonas: in the case of the I/D machine there are only a few places you /can/ safely put padding
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17:32:43 <b_jonas> hmm yeah, for the I/D machine that's tricky
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17:36:12 <zzo38> I think the problem with JSON is that you can't put comments or trailing commas. It would also be good to allow unquoted keys (in addition to quoted keys), though. (There are also some types not available in JSON, such as integers (JavaScript now has it, with a "n" suffix to indicate a integer), and type annotations (the parser in use would have to know what to do with it, otherwise it is an error).)
17:39:06 <int-e> Why would JSON support comments. It's not for human consumption!
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17:41:26 <zzo38> It is useful if you want to write it manually, which sometimes would be. (A converter is possible, but that still doesn't support integers.)
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18:02:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: sometimes you can put comments in fields that the reading program will ignore
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18:04:03 <b_jonas> not that I want to advertise JSON
18:04:42 <b_jonas> it's another of those things like XML where it would never occur to me to use it on my own initiative. I've only parsed JSON when there was already another party up that produced it.
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18:48:54 <pikhq> int-e: Because the lack of concessions JSON makes to non-machine use are to blame for people using YAML? :)
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18:50:14 <b_jonas> .oO(am I allowed to say that? jevalbot uses a config file in YAML format. but I wrote that ages ago and I'm no longer maintaining it.)
18:50:44 <pikhq> Nah, I think you are. YAML is pretty miserable as a config file format.
18:50:49 <int-e> I don't think I've had all that much exposure to YAML
18:50:52 <pikhq> And that's a major use of it.
18:51:11 <pikhq> int-e: It's one of those formats that initially looks simple, but has dragons within.
18:51:36 <int-e> I've touched a travis.yml file, I suppose. It wasn't so bad to write. I don't want to know about parsing.
18:52:11 <pikhq> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YAML#Advanced_components
18:52:47 <int-e> pikhq: Yeah I was happier not knowing that.
18:52:48 <b_jonas> pikhq: I don't see what else you'd want to use it other than as a config file format. it's basically designed for that, because you can write it in various forms so it's hard to read.
18:52:58 <int-e> Anyway, I'm not sure that JSON is to blame specifically.
18:53:08 <zzo38> It would be possible maybe to use a subset of YAML, maybe
18:53:23 <pikhq> b_jonas: It's designed as a config file format, but it's also way too powerful as one.
18:53:24 <int-e> I would more generally blame XML (which has been used as a configuration file format...)
18:54:33 <zzo38> Also, what is good for configuration format can also depend on the program being configured; sometimes is helpful to have more than one file.
18:54:54 <b_jonas> luckily that's not too common. I can only recall one software that uses XML as a config file format: fontconfig.
18:55:03 <int-e> But honestly I have not given much thought to configuration file formats. I guess I find the [section] key=value format simple and sufficient for many uses
18:55:17 <zzo38> JSON and INI are also used, and also a variant of INI without section headings, and also X resource manager format.
18:55:23 <pikhq> int-e: You'd probably like TOML
18:55:51 <zzo38> int-e: Do you mean INI format?
18:56:05 <pikhq> It's not the _easiest_, but it's reasonable enough.
18:56:15 <int-e> pikhq: doesn't look too bad
18:58:19 <zzo38> I do see XML used for a lot of stuff that XML isn't so good for.
18:58:35 <zzo38> (For most things, XML is not good for, I think.)
18:59:23 <pikhq> IMO the main problem with INI is it's not especially well-specified as a format.
19:00:15 <pikhq> Of course, if it's suitable for your purposes there's nothing stopping you from just _saying_ exactly what your program thinks an "INI file" is.
19:01:11 <shachaf> ais523: The context I was wondering about that in originally was something like making the busy beaver function not monotonic.
19:07:47 <int-e> zzo38: yeah I meant INI format
19:08:48 <arseniiv> pikhq: agree about underspecification of INI. When someone needs arrays or hierarchical sections, there’s only lore, and no guarantee there are no conflicting traditions
19:11:32 <arseniiv> so in the very basic cases it’s okay, but I’m glad TOML is getting some traction (I heard about it in Ceylon community some time ago, it was being implemented for something in one of its tools)
19:18:02 <arseniiv> zzo38: for one thing, AFAIR XML is a giant of a format. Though I don’t know how it compares to something like YAML, by the way what do you people think about YAML? It should be a great deal to parse, maybe even harder than XML?,,
19:19:20 <b_jonas> XML is much less hard to parse if you don't expand entities (which most parsers do anyway to ignore security bugs) and ignore xml namespaces (which you can mostly do if you don't care about accepting some false positives with incorrect namespaces)
19:20:03 <arseniiv> it was actually being talked about prior to my entrance
19:20:31 <arseniiv> (ah and the previous one are about YAML)
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19:22:49 <zzo38> There are many other format, and which one will be good can depend different thing. I think sometimes X resource manager format can be good
19:26:43 <arseniiv> also one day I thought about an extended SGML-like format in which you can write something like this:
19:26:44 <arseniiv> << if <[ cond ]> then <[ block1 ]> else <[ block2 ]> if >> where cond, block1 and block2 can be “tags” too and usual tag arguments can still be given too, though they can maybe now be obsoleted
19:30:24 <arseniiv> I think I used other delimiters than << <[ ]> >> but can’t remember which ones exactly
19:31:00 <arseniiv> that time they looked meaningfully sensible
19:31:58 <arseniiv> also it can be simply <if< c >then< b1 >else< b2 >if> but that would be hard to read
19:33:41 <b_jonas> "that time they looked meaningfully sensible" => so did "((!!ifdef " when I made Olvashato. it does look rather stupid in retrospect.
19:36:22 <arseniiv> on a complete tangent, sometimes I want to read “destiny” as “density”
19:43:08 <shachaf> i,i probability destiny function
19:47:31 <int-e> . o O ( you're headed for a great destiny )
19:48:48 <int-e> arseniiv: it's not all that easy to come up with contexts where both words make sense :)
19:48:49 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(6<=length$w && $k{$k}) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } # arseniiv:
19:48:50 <HackEso> expect:except \ conversation:conservation \ reserve:reverse \ aboard:abroad \ caller:cellar \ density:destiny \ bedroom:boredom \ casual:causal \ converse:conserve \ gateway:getaway \ median:maiden \ marital:martial \ preserve:perverse \ patrol:portal \ tribune:turbine \ barely:barley \ carving:craving \ eternity:entirety \ insect:incest \ mental:mantel \ parental:paternal \ parental:prenatal \ resource:recourse \ silver:sliver \ bowler:blower \ clobber:co
19:49:35 <int-e> what's this, anagrams where first and last letter agree?
19:50:04 <b_jonas> and at least 6 letters long
19:50:41 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(length($w)<6 && $k{$k}) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } } # these are the shorter ones
19:50:42 <HackEso> there:three \ from:form \ board:broad \ trail:trial \ could:cloud \ bread:beard \ diary:dairy \ stake:skate \ crab:carb \ calm:clam \ carve:crave \ rogue:rouge \ stain:satin \ slate:stale \ wrap:warp \ bolt:blot \ barn:bran \ coral:carol \ crap:carp \ clot:colt \ grab:garb \ lion:loin \ panel:penal \ slit:silt \ smile:slime \ trap:tarp \ trot:tort \ unite:untie \ adobe:abode \ bulge:bugle \ crony:corny \ fart:frat \ forth:froth \ liar:lair \ prep:perp \ pl
19:51:22 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh a great food for thought
19:51:48 <arseniiv> I’m glad I started a fruitful conservation
19:52:02 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(length($w)<6 && $k{$k} && 24<=%_c++) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } }
19:52:04 <HackEso> Can't modify hash dereference in postincrement (++) at -e line 1, near "%_c++" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
19:52:12 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(length($w)<6 && $k{$k} && 24<=$_c++) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } }
19:52:13 <HackEso> smile:slime \ trap:tarp \ trot:tort \ unite:untie \ adobe:abode \ bulge:bugle \ crony:corny \ fart:frat \ forth:froth \ liar:lair \ prep:perp \ ploy:poly \ slide:sidle \ salt:slat \ spine:snipe \ cold:clod \ curd:crud \ flier:filer \ grid:gird \ gutsy:gusty \ slave:salve \ tenor:toner \ scrap:scarp \ today:toady \ brain:bairn \ meaty:matey \ stair:sitar \ bard:brad \ pasty:patsy \ sole:sloe
19:52:21 <b_jonas> `perl -eopen$I,"<","share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt"or die; while(<$I>){ if(/^[^- ]/) { ($w) = m"^[(]*([\x27.\-/A-Za-z]+)[!*)]*$" or die "syn: $_"; ($a,$b)=$w=~/^(?=(.)).*(.)\.?$/ or die; $k=lc($a.$b.join("",sort $w=~/./g)); if(6<=length($w) && $k{$k} && 24<=$_c++) { print "$k{$k}:$w\n" } $k{$k}//=$w; } }
19:52:22 <HackEso> bowler:blower \ clobber:cobbler \ complaint:compliant \ cruelty:cutlery \ filtration:flirtation \ farmer:framer \ infarction:infraction \ relive:revile \ barely:bleary \ blotter:bottler \ binary:brainy \ brasserie:brassiere \ cavern:craven \ coroner:crooner \ crusty:curtsy \ lentil:lintel \ perfect:prefect \ reunite:retinue \ specter:scepter \ singer:signer \ stripe:sprite \ spotlight:stoplight \ unrelated:unaltered \ brocade:barcode \ grenade:grandee \ ga
19:56:35 <arseniiv> hm by the way anybody knows of some interjection/imitation word dictionaries for English in text form? It’s hard for non-native (I think many here would understand) to use usual dictionaries to master them
19:57:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * InfiniteDonuts * New user account
19:57:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think those are used in Japanese only
19:57:47 <arseniiv> when I happen to describe a bunch of my recordings at Freesound.org, I often struggle to find good tags and write something useful in the description
20:00:04 <arseniiv> maybe something like Urban dictionary has them all and even more, but I’m still at a loss about a techique how to use it effectively so I don’t use it at all
20:00:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65624&oldid=65597 * InfiniteDonuts * (+257)
20:01:51 <arseniiv> (as it would at least need filtering, both of definitions and by “word alignment”)
20:01:54 <int-e> InfiniteDonuts <- that's a lot of holes
20:03:05 <esowiki> [[User:InfiniteDonuts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65625 * InfiniteDonuts * (+235) Created page with "Hi! I am InfiniteDonuts. I joined Esolang because one of my favorite things to code are strange, hilarious or difficult esoteric programming languages. I have so far created..."
20:03:32 <arseniiv> hm donuts allow one to encode sufficiently complex structures to make an esolang?
20:04:32 <arseniiv> having a donut inside of a donut, can one (un)wind the first around the hole of the second?
20:08:17 <b_jonas> arseniiv: if you're very good at food sculpture, you could probably program Efghij by sculpting imitations of objects from donuts
20:08:51 <b_jonas> you'll have to bake the donuts unusually structurally stable though
20:09:57 <int-e> b_jonas: or move into a low gravity environment
20:10:12 <esowiki> [[Flop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65626 * InfiniteDonuts * (+223) Created page with "<b>Flop</b> is a 2-dimensional esoteric programming language created by ~~~~InfiniteDonuts. Flop is probably Turing-complete."
20:10:39 <b_jonas> int-e: but then it becomes less enjoyable to eat the program
20:10:51 <esowiki> [[Flop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65627&oldid=65626 * InfiniteDonuts * (-78)
20:10:53 <b_jonas> what's the point of using donuts if you can't eat them in the end?
20:12:57 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh my goodness what a language
20:13:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: why, one can eat them in low gravity, why not?
20:13:35 <esowiki> [[Flop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65628&oldid=65627 * InfiniteDonuts * (+234)
20:13:59 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can, I'm not saying it's impossible, it just gets less convenient or less enjoyable
20:14:21 <esowiki> [[Flop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65629&oldid=65628 * InfiniteDonuts * (+29)
20:16:13 <arseniiv> though low gravity is cheating
20:17:19 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> it just gets less convenient or less enjoyable => maybe the first but why the second? what can be more enjoyable than free falling and eating a lot of structurally unstable donuts
20:18:03 <arseniiv> though donuts are the devil as I had said a while ago
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20:34:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65630&oldid=65624 * Majestic53 * (+247)
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22:35:20 <kmc> I ate a chocolate donut today
22:35:28 <kmc> as my wife said "nothing says I love you and care about you like a donut"
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23:27:59 <zzo38> Currently, bystand can post each message to only one server. I intend I can add the possibility to post to multiple servers, in case you are posting to multiple newsgroups, some of which are not Usenet. However, it seems would be more difficult to keep track of it in case one posting is successful but posting to a different server failed.
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23:33:20 <zzo38> Do you have suggestions about this?
23:33:54 <b_jonas> dunno if I mentioned yet, but the ICFP contest results are out
23:34:16 <zzo38> OK. Do you have the link of the details?
23:34:52 <b_jonas> https://icfpcontest2019.github.io/ and https://icfpcontest2019.github.io/assets/icfpc19-report.pdf