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00:28:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zahlen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65761 * A * (+276) Created page with "==Questions== What is the difference between a set and a list in Zahlen, and how to push logical/set/list values onto the stack? --~~~~"
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00:42:17 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65762&oldid=65754 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Log */ Nani!? I added space???
00:45:56 <esowiki> [[Unicat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65763&oldid=44887 * Dtuser1337 * (+18)
00:48:51 <esowiki> [[Blackspace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65764&oldid=65618 * A * (+290)
00:49:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65765&oldid=65761 * A * (-56)
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01:30:45 <esowiki> [[User:Trickbrain26]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65766 * Trickbrain26 * (+16) Created page with "I love Esolangs:"
01:32:55 <esowiki> [[User:Trickbrain26]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65767&oldid=65766 * Trickbrain26 * (+55)
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03:16:05 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65768&oldid=60322 * A * (+1096) /* Miscellaneous operators */
03:16:40 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65769&oldid=65768 * A * (+30) /* Examples */
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03:35:10 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65770&oldid=65769 * A * (+332) /* Digital root calculator */ Average
04:30:27 <esowiki> [[Pyth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65771&oldid=54848 * A * (+124)
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05:55:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CarlosLuna * New user account
06:02:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65772&oldid=65740 * CarlosLuna * (+363) /* Introductions */
06:05:09 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65773&oldid=65770 * A * (+132) /* Examples */
06:06:34 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65774&oldid=65773 * A * (+42) /* Examples */
06:08:53 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65775&oldid=52040 * CarlosLuna * (+86) /* Implementation */
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09:52:34 <esowiki> [[Salt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65776&oldid=65695 * A * (-22290) It's all trash, I'm gonna redo it.
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10:02:21 <HackEso> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast
10:04:41 <wob_jonas> `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
10:04:42 <wob_jonas> k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast
10:04:44 <HackEso> Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
10:04:48 <wob_jonas> `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
10:04:49 <wob_jonas> k, master, nasty, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast.
10:04:49 <HackEso> Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
10:04:53 <HackEso> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, castle, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mas
10:05:59 <wob_jonas> `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste
10:05:59 <wob_jonas> r, pass, past, path, photograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task, vast.
10:06:06 <HackEso> Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, disaster, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, graph, grass, half, last, laugh, mask, maste
10:07:11 <shachaf> half a screen of HackEso spam
10:08:02 <wob_jonas> `learn can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho
10:08:02 <wob_jonas> tograph, plant, rather, sample, shan't, staff, task.
10:08:12 <HackEso> Relearned 'can't': can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance, advantage, after, answer, ask, aunt, branch, can't, cast, chance, class, craft, command, contrast, dance, demand, draft, enhance, example, fast, glass, glance, grant, half, last, laugh, mask, master, pass, past, path, pho
10:08:43 <shachaf> can't you figure out what the right length is and then just type that one line in
10:08:49 <shachaf> this is a denial of service attack on me
10:09:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: then you or oerjan will complain that I edit entries outside the channel... ok wait
10:12:02 <HackEso> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, answer, ask, class, dance, example, fast, glass, half, last, laugh, pass, past, plant, rather, staff.
10:12:56 <wob_jonas> sorry, you're right about the smap
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11:41:55 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
11:42:11 <HackEso> Turing is what you are doing when you Tur.
11:43:33 <HackEso> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
11:43:49 <HackEso> Church invented a sane model of computation, but Turing was better with marketing, so now theoretical computer science defines everything based on obsolate hardware like tape recorders.
11:52:04 <HackEso> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
11:53:25 <wob_jonas> cpressey: the definitions in https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/master/stdlib/cmp.robin#L147 don't seem right
11:53:28 <cpressey> Yes, I've decided to make my presence known by generating pages of HackEso spam
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11:54:37 <cpressey> wob_jonas: feel free to suggest another test case
11:59:30 <cpressey> very very pedantically, I think they should have different names (gte? gt? lte? lt?) but I'm sure that's not what you're referring to
11:59:49 <wob_jonas> cpressey: I don't have a problem with the names
11:59:57 <wob_jonas> cpressey: is it supposed to be a signed integer comparison?
12:00:12 <wob_jonas> and how do I input negative integers in Robin S-expressions?
12:01:07 <cpressey> wob_jonas: yes, and (subtract 0 10) is how you can say -10
12:01:25 <wob_jonas> cpressey: can't I just directly input -10 ? would be so much easier
12:03:37 <wob_jonas> anyway, then (assert (> 6 4)) (assert (> 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736)))
12:04:12 <wob_jonas> (assert (equal? #f (> (subtract 0 1610612736) 1610612736)))
12:05:46 <wob_jonas> I don't complain about the name because the names similar to what lisps have, so they fit your general naming scheme
12:08:30 <cpressey> There may be problems with large numbers.
12:09:15 <wob_jonas> cpressey: then either fix that or document that
12:10:07 <cpressey> wob_jonas: I'm working on 0.4 now, I'll put it in the queue. Thanks for the report.
12:10:32 <cpressey> (display (subtract 1610612736 (subtract 0 1610612736))) ; it says -1073741824
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12:15:27 <cpressey> > (1610612736 :: Int32) - ((0 :: Int32) - (1610612736 :: Int32))
12:18:20 <cpressey> I guess it could compare sign first, + > -, then only if signs the same do the subtract
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12:24:43 <HackEso> absolute value:The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths. \ ciol:ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands. \ color:Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to
12:24:47 <HackEso> Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
12:25:10 <HackEso> Long is the Chinese word for dragon.
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13:17:41 <int-e> what's this game? whoever gets the longest streak of wisdom-non-entries wins?
13:39:40 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
13:45:54 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
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14:13:30 <cpressey> wob_jonas: https://github.com/catseye/Robin/blob/develop-0.4/stdlib/cmp.robin
14:14:30 <cpressey> If you can find another hole in it, I will take that as a sign that I should start learning to use QuickCheck.
14:16:59 <Cale> You should of course do that anyway, QuickCheck is pretty great.
14:26:17 <HackEso> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
14:30:15 <wob_jonas> cpressey: (assert (> 0 (subtract (subtract 0 1073741824) 1073741824)))
14:32:12 <wob_jonas> (who cares about zero. it's not even a real number. nobody will use it in real calculations. real calculations involve real numbers.)
14:33:48 <cpressey> Well, I guess I'll be setting up QuickCheck tomorrow, although how (or if) I'm going to integrate it with this language, I don't know
14:34:08 <wob_jonas> can't you call into this language from Haskell?
14:34:48 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if QuickCheck really helps here though
14:34:52 <cpressey> The first version had unbounded Integers, where none of this would be an issue, but then I was like "Oh I want this to conceivably be simple to implement in assembly" like an idiot
14:36:26 <cpressey> I can certainly test it from Haskell, but I'd somewhat rather not have the tests be written in Haskell
14:36:36 <wob_jonas> cpressey: then add arithmetic primitives. they don't really make the interpreter more complex, nor make the language harder to learn. the number of primitives isn't really the important thing you want to optimize for.
14:37:21 <cpressey> The number of primitives is exactly what this language optimizes for.
14:37:35 <cpressey> I could just stop working on it.
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16:04:17 <HackEso> can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: after, ask, last, answer, class, half, pass, past, path, rather, dance, example, fast, glass, laugh, plant, staff, advance, advantage, branch, cast, chance, contrast, demand, glance, grant, master, photograph, sample, task, aunt, basket, bath, command, disaster, draft, draught, enhance, grass, laughter, mask, vast.
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16:29:20 <ais523> wob_jonas: ?? my parents have different accents and would disagree as to the pronunciation of almost all those words, but agree on "can't"
16:29:30 <ais523> does anyone actually pronounce it as "cant"?
16:35:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, both pronunciations exist. see file:///D:/ambrus/a/refe/dict/alan-pron/CAAPR-ref.html which gives /ɑː/ as the british and /æ/ as the american pronunciation for all these words; https://english.stackexchange.com/q/276763/ ; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/can%27t
16:35:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: but not everyone pronounces all these words with the same vowel
16:37:05 <ais523> oh, I see, US versus British English
16:37:20 <ais523> almost all those words vary between dialects within British English, but "can't" is much more consistent
16:37:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: I once asked, if someone pronounces both "can" with a /æ/, then how do they distinguish between "can't dance" and "can dance". one person replied that they always pronounce "can" the verb with an unstressed vowel
16:37:26 <ais523> so it seems weird putting them on the same list
16:37:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's not quite just US versus british. some british people use one vowel, some the other
16:37:52 <wob_jonas> there's a split within british pronunciation
16:38:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: on most of those words, just not (as far as I know) on "can't"
16:38:24 <ais523> fwiw, even if "can" and "can't" use the same vowel, you can tell them apart by the presense of the "t"
16:38:29 <ais523> which is not silent or anything
16:38:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's why I'm giving an example with a "t" or "d" following it, as in "can't dance"
16:39:02 <wob_jonas> in which case the extra "t" is hard to hear
16:39:34 <ais523> you'd have to leave a gap between the words, English does a lot of flowing one word into the next but t…d is one situation where you really can't
16:40:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: that sounds nice in theory, but when I actually listen to English, some speakers don't seem to put a pause, which sometimes makes "can't" followed by a "t" or "d" confusing to me
16:41:28 <ais523> well, it's hard to come up with generic rules for pronouncing English
16:41:38 <ais523> people will do their own thing no matter what, and some accents are more or less unintelligible
16:41:49 <wob_jonas> it's possible that "can't" works differently from the other words, I just don't notice that because I don't follow all these accents
16:41:59 <ais523> generally speaking, for pretty much any word, you can find someone who pronounces any given vowel in it as pretty much any other vowell
16:42:05 <ais523> (this is an exaggeration but not much of one)
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17:07:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65777&oldid=53835 * SoundOfScripting * (+15) changed signature
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18:06:47 <Cale> It's the pronunciation of the 'a' which lets you tell apart "can dance" from "can't dance" even if the latter is slurred together.
18:07:23 <kmc> i think they're identical for me?
18:09:45 <Cale> If I'm pronouncing things slowly, the a's are identical, but when I'm speaking very quickly, the 'a' in "can" becomes just ə or elided altogether.
18:10:03 <Cale> But that doesn't happen with "can't"
18:24:27 <kmc> hard fo me to tell
18:24:31 <kmc> when i'm paying attention
18:32:17 <b_jonas> kmc: you can't tell or you can tell?
18:36:30 <b_jonas> ais523: how does the word "shan't" behave then?
18:38:13 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65778&oldid=61782 * InfiniteDonuts * (+47) /* Music */
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20:32:20 <ais523> b_jonas: "shan't" has almost died out, I think
20:32:47 <ais523> the word "shall" is mostly only used in formal contexts nowadays, and eliding it with "not" would only happen in informal speech, so as a result the word is rarely used at all
20:33:00 <ais523> my best guess is that it works like "can't" but I haven't heard people say it enough to be sure
20:33:01 <int-e> "Shan't" shan't be pronounced lest you sound like an old fart.
20:33:06 <shachaf> I was once told that "shan't" was very slangy, similar to "ain't".
20:33:36 <ais523> shachaf: right, this is a bad combination (a very informal phrase containing a word that's only used in formal settings)
20:33:53 <ais523> "shouldn't" or "mustn't" would be way more common in informal speech nowadays
20:33:56 <ais523> (or "can't" used incorrectly)
20:34:18 <int-e> "Thou shan't pass!" just doesn't sound intimidating enough...
20:34:47 <ais523> surely it should be "thou shalt not pass"?
20:34:57 <ais523> although hardly anyone can remember how to conjugate "thou" + verb nowadays
20:35:52 <int-e> ais523: I'm assuming that it would still be contracted to "shan't" for lack of alternatives.
20:36:12 <ais523> maybe it wouldn't be contracted because there isn't a viable contraction?
20:36:24 <int-e> Somebody should look this up.
20:36:30 <int-e> But it won't be me ;-)
20:36:37 <ais523> I guess the normal grammar rules would give "thou shan'st", but that has the letters in the wrong order
20:36:54 <ais523> I looked up the conjugation of "shall" after "thou", it does indeed conjugate to "shalt"
20:37:11 <int-e> So what did they use in the movie, hmm.
20:37:11 <shachaf> Where does the s come from?
20:37:59 <ais523> shachaf: most "thou" conjugations end -st
20:38:08 <int-e> "Du gehst." <-- German still has the "st".
20:38:13 <ais523> but there are a few exceptions, such as "shall" going to "shalt" not "shallst"
20:38:35 <shachaf> Most? I can only think of a few.
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20:39:26 <ais523> Wikipedia lists only six that don't; I'm not sure if that's meant to be an exhaustive list or not
20:39:32 <ais523> but implies that the vast majority of verbs do
20:39:39 <ais523> in both present and perfect tense
20:40:05 <ais523> wait, no, it lists six irregular forms
20:40:10 <ais523> but some of those /also/ end -st
20:40:55 <ais523> the regular form is to add -st or -est
20:41:05 <shachaf> Ah, you're right, I was only thinking of the irregular forms for some reason.
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20:42:24 <int-e> Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book?
20:47:28 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, I'll just ignore shan't then
20:48:04 <int-e> The book has "You cannot pass!"
20:48:31 <int-e> Spoken, not cried out loud.
20:48:56 <ais523> I wonder how the "thou shall not pass" phrasing ended up in public consciousness, then? (I remember it specifically as containing a misconjugated verb, but maybe others remember differently/)
20:49:29 <ais523> that said, "he"/"she"/"it" still exist in modern English, and their conjugations changed from -th to -s at some point
20:49:37 <ais523> so maybe "thou"'s has also changed
20:49:48 <b_jonas> I do sometimes use "shall", but yes, it's rare. I don't think I use "shan't" except in quoting someone else using it (Harry Potter and the PS says, IIRC, in the first chapter, that Dudley has learnt a new word, "shan't". let me check that.)
20:49:54 <int-e> ais523: movies stick
20:50:07 <ais523> int-e: but apparently it wasn't in the movie either
20:50:37 <ais523> b_jonas: it's the sort of word that petulant children might have used in the past
20:50:45 <int-e> ais523: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZZNHekEQw certainly fooled me then
20:51:00 <ais523> although nowadays you'd expect "won't" instead (modern children are unlikely to learn "shan't" as a word…)
20:51:09 <b_jonas> ais523: right, that chapter plays in about 1980
20:51:22 <ais523> <int-e> Oh well. The movie has "You shall not pass." What about the book?
20:51:39 <b_jonas> ais523: "cannot" IIRC.. let me check
20:51:52 <ais523> maybe there's more than one English version of the movie?
20:51:53 <int-e> b_jonas: I did check, fwiw.
20:51:55 <ais523> this would be far from unheard of
20:52:14 <b_jonas> ais523: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/35262/where-did-you-shall-not-pass-come-from says both the movie and the book says "cannot" (Gandalf)
20:52:24 <ais523> the first Harry Potter book (and thus the corresponding film) has different names in American and British English…
20:52:59 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, the film has different names too? really?
20:53:43 <ais523> b_jonas: not matching the book would surely be a marketing disaster
20:55:07 <int-e> shachaf: maybe ais523 is speaking in jest
20:55:35 <ais523> I think it'd be survivable but that the people actually marketing it wouldn't want to risk it
20:55:44 <b_jonas> ais523: the books were already famous by the time the first movie was released, and "Harry Potter" is enough for recognizability
20:56:19 <b_jonas> ais523: you're right, the film has different titles too
20:56:27 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (released in the United States, India and Pakistan as Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone)
20:56:29 <b_jonas> was its dubbing changed too?
20:56:38 <ais523> my guess is that they recorded the relevant lines multiple times
20:56:41 <int-e> Ask me about names in the Neverending Story. :P
20:56:52 <ais523> it wouldn't have been a noticeable amount of extra work for the actors
20:57:11 <shachaf> int-e: Did you read _Jim Knopf_?
20:57:49 <int-e> (Bastian = Bastian. Atreju = Atreyu. Xayide = Xayeede. Engywuck = Engywook. Fuchur = Falkor. It makes sense, but it did surprise me a lot when I first saw these...)
20:58:10 <int-e> shachaf: I have not read Jim Knopf. I only know Momo in german.
20:58:47 <shachaf> You haven't read Jim Knopf?!
20:58:57 <shachaf> Did you see the recent movie? I have it on Blu-Ray.
20:59:07 <shachaf> Unfortunately I don't have a Blu-Ray reader so I haven't seen it.
20:59:43 <int-e> (And which of those three books is "the recent movie" based on?)
21:00:18 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Because the American title was different, all scenes that mention the philosopher's stone by name had to be re-shot, once with the actors saying "philosopher's" and once with "sorcerer's".
21:00:56 <b_jonas> ais523: I was told that most big budget popular movies have separate dubbings for continental french and canadian french, as well as for european portugese and brazilian portugese; but I thought most of them don't have multiple english dubs.
21:01:03 <shachaf> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3072732/
21:01:30 <b_jonas> it's different in text of course, which is easier to change, eg. it's cheap for some software to have separate american vs british english text
21:01:34 <ais523> b_jonas: that's mostly just because it'd be a waste, Brits are used to seeing American English in films
21:01:57 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but the HP movies have mostly british characters
21:02:11 <ais523> the situation with computer games is weird, many computer game manufacturers have separate European and American translation teams
21:02:13 <b_jonas> what happens with films like that?
21:02:27 <ais523> so often you get separate British English and American English translations
21:03:02 <ais523> but sometimes the American English translation is reused to save time, e.g. if they want to get a release out in the UK more quickly
21:03:02 <b_jonas> video games are different, because they're made with most of the dialog in japanese originally, as opposed to films where most of the dialog is in english originally
21:03:14 <ais523> this leads to translation inconsistencies between a game and its sequel sometimes
21:03:23 <ais523> (because one is the British English version, one is the American English version)
21:03:25 <b_jonas> ais523: are those translations of the text of the video game, or of the voice acting or dubbing of the video game?
21:03:38 <int-e> b_jonas: you should make that into a wisdom entry
21:03:47 <ais523> b_jonas: normally text
21:03:53 <ais523> I don't play a whole lot of games that have voice acting
21:04:02 <int-e> (it says more about the video games that you play than about video games in general)
21:04:37 <ais523> int-e: well, two out of the three largest console manufacturers are Japanese, and this thus affects all their first-party games
21:04:45 * int-e plays a lot of contemporary click&point adventures, and most of those have voice acting
21:05:05 <shachaf> Are there a lot of contemporary click⅋point adventures?
21:05:13 <b_jonas> int-e, ais523: yes, the bias comes from how I see people play a lot of nintendo games
21:05:14 <int-e> ais523: Hmm. You may have a point there. I'm focused on the PC platform.
21:05:42 <b_jonas> even though nintendo games are less popular here in europe (still quite popular, mind you), I see them a lot on the internet
21:05:59 <int-e> shachaf: there are a lot of contemporary point&click adventures
21:06:15 <int-e> shachaf: I don't think any of them use linear logic of the kind you alluded to
21:06:18 <shachaf> What are a few? I thought they were pretty rare nowadays.
21:06:51 <int-e> (unless you get into game mechanics where items sometimes get used up? hmm. there's an opportunity to overthink this here, certainly.)
21:06:53 <ais523> shachaf: how do you typo an upside-down ampersand? I have a huge number of characters on my keyboard but don't know how to type that one
21:07:32 <b_jonas> I don't think that was a typo
21:07:36 <shachaf> I don't, but I like to imagine a world in which I do.
21:07:57 <shachaf> First I pressed <compose> & &, and it didn't do anything, but I was kind of hoping it would.
21:08:11 <ais523> that's the first thing I tried too :-D
21:08:13 <shachaf> So then I just inserted it.
21:08:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: two ampersands? why not an ampersand and a grave accent?
21:08:35 <int-e> one minute of searching in gucharmap: ⅋
21:08:35 <ais523> b_jonas: it's by analogy with ¿ and ¡
21:09:03 <ais523> RFC 1345, the most complete repository of compose sequences I know of (although it disagrees with X on some issues), doesn't have a compose sequence for ⅋
21:09:17 <shachaf> I have the best Unicode searcher. It's very convenient.
21:09:19 <HackEso> [U+214B TURNED AMPERSAND]
21:10:23 <ais523> I guess that my taste in games is focused heavily on gameplay over other factors, also I can't easily download large games or run those with DRM on my computer (because DRM normally requires an Internet connection)
21:10:42 <ais523> these considerations combined mean that voice acting is very unlikely to be present in a game I play
21:11:06 <ais523> that said, there is some amount of voice acting in some games I play, but it typically implies that I'll own a physical version (and it may well be a console game)
21:11:50 <ais523> …the other impressive thing about RFC 1345 is that it is about non-ASCII character sets and compose sequences, yet is written entirely in ASCII
21:12:04 <ais523> I think the main reason for defining all the compose sequences was to make it possible to readably write the rest of the document
21:12:20 <b_jonas> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1345.html doesn't seem to mention the upside down ampersand
21:12:36 <b_jonas> ah yes, ais523 looked it up already
21:15:17 <shachaf> Hmm, my Unicode selector is already the best, but it's kind of cobbled together out of multiple pieces which isn't ideal.
21:15:29 <shachaf> I should write an even better Unicode selector thing.
21:15:39 <ais523> …actually no, this isn't ASCII, is it? it's /actually/ ISO646
21:15:47 <ais523> if it were ASCII it'd be able to use things like square brackets literally
21:16:13 <shachaf> The trouble is that rendering Unicode text is really hard.
21:17:36 <shachaf> There's pretty much only one free library for Unicode text layout, and it has some problems.
21:17:54 <shachaf> And also the author/maintainer seems to be a jerk about any criticisms of it.
21:18:39 <ais523> hmm, theoretically libuncursed2 is planned to do Unicode text /layout/ (although not rendering, it just works out where to put the characters)
21:19:09 <shachaf> Well, layout is the hard part.
21:19:58 <shachaf> As far as I can tell there's no specification for how to do it or anything like that.
21:20:31 <shachaf> Librarie that do it just get a bunch of language-specific implementations from people who speak particular languages.
21:20:40 <ais523> the main complexities are a) grapheme clustering, which definitely is specified; b) bidirectional layout, which I think is specified but haven't checked
21:20:52 <ais523> but libuncursed2 is monospace only
21:21:03 <ais523> it's a curses replacement that I was working on, then stopped
21:21:28 <shachaf> Oh, monospace-only is probably easier.
21:21:30 <ais523> (so was libuncursed1, for that matter; libuncursed2 is meant to have a less ridiculous API, though, whereas libuncursed1's was almost curses-compatible)
21:21:41 <shachaf> I want to lay out general text.
21:22:16 <shachaf> I just want a library that implements the necessary algorithms and doesn't insist on taking over the world with regard to memory management or whatever.
21:22:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: pango is probably one of the very few libraries that tries to tackle all its complexity, yes
21:22:26 <shachaf> I can't tell why harfbuzz wants to reference-count everything as its only API.
21:22:31 <shachaf> Pango just uses harfbuzz, right?
21:22:48 <b_jonas> I don't know what it uses underneath, I just use its api
21:23:01 <b_jonas> I know it has dependencies
21:23:22 <b_jonas> it has to do lots of magic about accessing fonts installed on the system
21:24:02 <b_jonas> well, it has lots of user-configurable knobs, so I think you can turn whatever magic you don't want off
21:24:19 <b_jonas> but I don't see how you want to do general text layout without magic, unless you know a lot about every script there is in unicode
21:24:20 <shachaf> I want to be able to put glyphs in a font atlas thing and have them rendered on the GPU anyway.
21:24:33 <b_jonas> or every script there is in existing fonts, rather
21:24:52 <shachaf> Presumably given a particular string I can figure out which glyphs are necessary for rendering it.
21:25:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, that's pango's job
21:25:10 <b_jonas> figuring out which glyphs to render and where exactly
21:25:37 <b_jonas> then you can use pango with multiple different frontends that actually draw the glyphs there if you want to render them, including on GPU
21:25:52 <shachaf> I also want libraries that don't ever call malloc.
21:25:59 <shachaf> That seems like a pretty reasonable request.
21:26:17 <b_jonas> that... may be hard in this case
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21:26:53 <b_jonas> you want the same library to do both, right? help with text layout and never call malloc that is
21:27:26 <shachaf> I don't want any library to call malloc. That doesn't seem that unreasonable.
21:27:28 <b_jonas> you can probably make a version that calls your own malloc-like functions if you really need to
21:28:04 <shachaf> I definitely don't want libraries to do reference counting. That's just ridiculous.
21:28:05 <b_jonas> though it might be hard because you may have to go down to all dependencies including gobject
21:28:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: again, that will be hard with the current status of these libraries
21:29:03 <b_jonas> and for rendering layout, that seems an unreasonable requirement to me. surely you want them to cache the information they learned out about fonts and stuff, and they need refcounting for that
21:29:45 <ais523> libuncursed, at least, inherently needs memory from somewhere; what would be your suggested API for that?
21:30:09 <ais523> (note that the intended API uses nothing but Unicode strings and 32-bit integers to make it easy to wrap from arbitrary languages)
21:30:21 <shachaf> Hmm, I could pass in some amount of memory that it requests.
21:30:22 <ais523> calling malloc seems like the obvious method
21:31:07 <shachaf> The main thing I want is a clear understanding of the memory usage and allocation profile of my program.
21:31:20 <b_jonas> I for one am fine with libraries like this doing malloc and some reference counting
21:32:03 <ais523> shachaf: is it OK if all the routines that can allocate memory have a name clearly indicating that?
21:32:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: you can still do that with malloc, you can probably replace malloc
21:33:00 <shachaf> That would be better, and it would also be better if I can pass in an allocator rather than it calling the global malloc.
21:33:22 <b_jonas> sure, there are some functions where I want to make sure that they don't malloc, but for anything like text layout or rendering, using malloc is fine for me,
21:33:42 <b_jonas> assuming it can clean up after itself of course, doesn't leak memory like crazy
21:38:19 <b_jonas> also for english pronunciation, article http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html is fresh out from the press
21:38:36 <ais523> huh, it's written in English?
21:38:45 <ais523> I guess that makes sense given its topic
21:39:21 <b_jonas> ais523: David alwasy writes some articles in English, it's just less common than it used to be in the early years of his blog
21:39:30 <b_jonas> (the blog is very old, so some change is not surprising)
21:40:24 <b_jonas> but http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html is new and also in English
21:41:40 <shachaf> "always writes some articles in English" is a modal logic thing?
21:41:48 <shachaf> "always eventually", I guess.
21:43:18 <b_jonas> hmm yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html is in french and is about english language
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21:46:00 <b_jonas> and these days David keeps writing more and more stuff on Twitter rather than on the blog, and some of that is always in English too
21:54:58 <ais523> my own answers: warn=worn; fairy≠ferry; spear it≠spirit; fire≠far; law=lore; ant?=aunt ("aunt" varies); full≠fool; sun=son; horse=hoarse; pain=pane; hire?=higher (both vary); threw=through; luck≠look; would=wood; poor≠pure; brewed=brood; steering≠stirring; shed≠shared; morning=mourning; tower≠tyre ("tire" doesn't exist in en_GB); farm≠form; sat≠set; dolly≠Dali; hit≠heat; bury=berry; putt≠put; nose=knows; tower≠tar;
21:54:59 <ais523> earn=urn; [h]urry≠[f]urry; [n]earer≠[m]irror; stow≠store; poor=pour; hairy≠Harry; fir=fur; for=four; surely≠Shirley; cot≠caught; meet=meat; cap≠cup
21:56:05 <b_jonas> does "tire" not exists even as an uncommon verb?
21:56:18 <ais523> b_jonas: oh yes, I missed the verb possibility
21:56:38 <ais523> it's mostly only used as "tired" but does exist as a verb on its own
21:57:22 <b_jonas> as in "I tire of this farce!" when Jabba drops Oola into the Rancor pit in Darths & Droids http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1210.html
21:57:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: If the library wants to do caching that seems fine, but surely it should have a lower-level interface where I can control the caching?
21:58:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't know the details. you can probably control at least as much to be able to ask to purge the cashes
21:58:57 <b_jonas> you can check the manual at https://developer.gnome.org/pango/unstable/ if you want, or a local copy
21:59:38 <shachaf> Ugh, I definitely don't want to use glib.
21:59:45 <shachaf> Every time I've tried to use a glib thing it's been miserable.
22:00:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think pango itself doesn't use glib, only cairo does
22:00:19 <b_jonas> pango uses gobject, which is sort of related
22:00:42 <b_jonas> in practice I use pango+cairo together (pango has an easy api for that), so it uses glib
22:00:50 <b_jonas> but only internally, it doesn't expose that
22:01:24 <b_jonas> nor does pango expose gobject I think
22:01:53 <b_jonas> it doesn't bother me this way
22:02:00 <b_jonas> it would bother me if it was exposed of course
22:03:38 <b_jonas> eg. pango uses the type int to give width, not gint
22:20:57 <b_jonas> ais523: my three wrong answers for the poll (despite that no answers are wrong) are for horse, son, and mourning
22:21:13 <b_jonas> I still don't understand how "o" works in English pronunciation
22:21:20 <b_jonas> most of the time I pronounce it randomly
22:21:49 <ais523> it usually matches the vowel in "pot" but sometimes it just means something else, seemingly at random
22:26:08 <b_jonas> "oo" and "ou" confuse me, because I always try to pronounce them as long u (or sometimes short U for ou) when stressed
22:26:34 <b_jonas> but there are a lot of words where it's pronounce as some of the o vowels, but I can never remember which ones
22:26:57 <b_jonas> I do know that "poor" and "pour" are strange, and I pronounce those inconsistently
22:27:20 <b_jonas> and I do know some frequent words like "four" have long o
22:27:39 <b_jonas> but still in many words, it confuses me, and that's what got me in "mourning"
22:28:33 <ais523> oh! you must have tried to pronounce it like "hour"
22:28:45 <ais523> I was trying to figure out what the other viable reading of the word was
22:28:47 <b_jonas> I also know that "your" and "you're" has long o, despite that you has U
22:29:11 <ais523> a good guideline is that an r after a vowel almost always affects how the vowel is pronounced
22:29:13 <b_jonas> as for "horse", I thought it has a _short_ o, and I'm still surprised that it doesn't
22:29:19 <ais523> although the r itself may end up silent
22:29:40 <ais523> "horse" doesn't really have an "o" at all, the vowel is "or"
22:30:19 <ais523> and there are probably exceptions to how "or" is pronounced because there are exceptions to everything, but it's one of the more reliably pronounced out of the various English vowel spellings
22:31:17 <ais523> "our" is ambiguous, it can either be pronounced like "or" or else more like "ower"
22:31:40 <b_jonas> "son" is the worse, because I have heared that word enough, so I should have known how it's pronounce
22:32:11 <b_jonas> for "horse" I can say that I just don't care about them so I don't listen to texts that talk about horses
22:32:20 <b_jonas> I think it's a reasonable excuse
22:32:40 <ais523> well, from my point of view "son" is irregular so it's easy to imagine someone guessing that wrong
22:32:55 <b_jonas> yes, lots of words are irregular, that's sort of the problem
22:33:05 <ais523> but "horse" is regular (apart from the e at the end) so that's more of a surprise
22:33:21 <ais523> (I think the e at the end is needed because "hors" is an imported French word and thus has a silent s)
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22:36:29 <b_jonas> hungarian is so much easier, because there used to be fewer words with irregular spelling. these days there are somewhat more because some people aren't willing to write a lot of english words in their english spelling even long after they're definitely naturalized. "ímél" is the most annoying to me, because so many people still write it as "email" or "e-mail"
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22:36:43 <b_jonas> but "fájl" vs "file" is older
22:37:10 <b_jonas> luckily people get "fájl" right more often because they see it in the localized windows UI menubars
22:38:59 <ais523> I thought Hungarian respelled all loanwords in Hungarian spelling according to their pronunciation?
22:39:15 <b_jonas> among the words that aren't neologisms, the more famous ones that have irregular spelling or may have irregular spelling in some dialects are "kisebb", "egy", "köpeny", "szőlő", "tízes", "húszas", and there's a few more than I forgot
22:39:43 <ais523> although áj is a bit of a weird way to spell English long i
22:39:44 <b_jonas> plus there are a few interjections that don't follow the normal phonology rules so their transcription is odd
22:41:19 <b_jonas> ais523: loanwords are supposed to be respelled if they've become a regular part of the language and they're not proper nouns; but they are kept in the original spelling while they're rare and just ad-hoc borrowed, as long as it's borrowed from a language usually written in latin script (including serbian)
22:42:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't find "áj" weird for spelling the english long i. it corresponds closely to the sound.
22:43:07 <ais523> I guess I find it hard to understand what j does in Hungarian
22:46:46 <b_jonas> ais523: in this case I think of it as a semi-vowel that forms a glide with the previous vowel. hungarian has those only _after_ a vowel, not before, which is why people with hungarian accents like me pronounce some english w-words strange.
22:47:45 <b_jonas> there's an analogous u semi-vowel in hungarian too, but it's pretty rare, basically only occurs in the word "autó" and related words, and even then the pronunciation is variable, plus transcribed ancient greek words with a vowel + u
22:48:06 <b_jonas> (vowel other than omikron) + u
22:48:35 <ais523> IIRC Hungarian "ly" is a sound that doesn't exist in English
22:48:47 <b_jonas> "ly" is pronounced the same as "j"
22:49:11 <b_jonas> so I don't see how that would work
22:50:10 <b_jonas> (except in a few old family names that spell "i" as "y", such as Thököly)
22:50:29 <ais523> as Hungarian "j" or English "j"?
22:50:49 <ais523> I thought English "j" was close to Hungarian "gy" (not identical, but close enough to be mutually intelligible)
22:51:25 <b_jonas> Hungarian "j" and Hungarian "ly" are pronounced the same
22:51:45 <b_jonas> and it's basically the same sound as the english "y" when it's a consonant, such as in "yet" and "yellow"
22:51:54 <ais523> hmm, that's a bit of a surprise
22:51:59 <ais523> how do you know which one to spell words with?
22:52:23 <int-e> rote memorization, just like in english?
22:52:23 <b_jonas> except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y"
22:52:43 <b_jonas> my banes were "muszáj" and "papagáj"
22:53:51 <b_jonas> there are a few rules that help: grammatical suffixes never have "ly" but often have "j", and "ly" doesn't occur at the start of a word excet in "lyuk" and its derivatives
22:53:57 <ais523> <b_jonas> except it often occurs after a vowel but before a consonant, in which case English usually doesn't spell it as "y" ← because that would modify the vowel rather than being a consonant
22:54:06 <b_jonas> there are also hints in that "ly" is rarer than "j", and "ly" is rare before a consonant
22:55:53 <b_jonas> but you do have to learn a long list of words with "ly" and "j" in school, eg. common ones like "folyik, lyuk", and rare ones that teachers like eg. "gólya, sirály, karvaly, papagáj" (four birds), "gálya, bója",
22:56:15 <b_jonas> and even obscure words like "zsöllye" which I never heard or read anyone use except in the context of learning the spelling
22:59:05 <b_jonas> "zsöllye" means the ordinary seats in a theatre, as opposed to the seats in boxes, but everyone just calls them "szék" which means chair
22:59:20 <b_jonas> why would you need a special word for them?
22:59:49 <b_jonas> special words for types of birds, that I can understand
23:00:13 <b_jonas> there are way more than the four I listed that we had to learn
23:22:33 <b_jonas> I guess "bója" is a third one that I can call my bane, besides "muszáj" and "papagáj". all three sound like they should be spelled with "ly", but they aren't
23:23:33 <b_jonas> but these days I think I know all three of them, and all other words
23:25:10 <b_jonas> "j" vs "ly" in all other words that is, not the spelling of all other words in general
23:30:06 <b_jonas> also all newly created words use "j" except where the "ly" is taken from a word they're derived from, so "ly" is a finite list, though there are obscure obsolate words on that list that I may not know
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23:31:11 <b_jonas> I know even _some_ obscure words with "ly" that I never use and aren't even sure in the meaning, like "csobolyó" and "süly" and "kesely"
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23:38:05 <shachaf> ais523: What about the smaller case of one function that returns variable-size data?
23:38:21 <shachaf> I think there are many options other than a malloc call and most of them are better.
23:38:44 <ais523> IIRC the API was designed so that all possible string-returning functions return data that exists literally as part of the executable, so it's just pointers to static strings
23:39:05 <ais523> that's a pretty major restriction but for something like libuncursed2 it may be doable
23:40:23 <ais523> in general there is probably no good cross-language solution
23:41:28 <ais523> count-and-copy is a solution that is capable of being good in some circumstances and is likely to be portable cross-language
23:41:49 <ais523> (you call to ask how much space to reserve, then provide memory of that size for the called function to copy the return value into)
23:42:06 <ais523> but for some functions it doesn't work as you have to do the same calculations twice
23:42:06 <shachaf> That can result in some duplicated work unfortunately.
23:42:25 <shachaf> One thing you can do is turn your function into a coroutine/state machine that can suspend when it needs more memory.
23:42:35 <shachaf> This is kind of similar to a malloc call (but more flexible).
23:43:53 <shachaf> You could pass a large buffer into the function and have it tell you how much it used.
23:44:33 <ais523> I was going to say "that doesn't work because you need memory to record your current state to be able to return it"
23:44:47 <ais523> then I realised that it suspends mid-calculation as soon as it runs out of memory
23:45:07 <shachaf> Right, you give it a "stack frame" struct that it can record its current state in.
23:45:32 <ais523> this is actually a really interesting idea, and I'm not sure it's been tried before?
23:45:43 <ais523> coroutines + memory allocation as two problems that are each used to solve the other
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23:51:12 <shachaf> Say you're implementing sprintf, which returns a variable-size output.
23:51:41 <shachaf> The normal thing to do is to call it twice to get the length the first time.
23:52:17 <shachaf> But if you're implementing printf using sprintf, you don't even want to allocate a full-size buffer. You want to sprintf to a fixed-size buffer until it's full, then flush it, and repeat until you're done.
23:52:41 <ais523> so ideally you want a coroutine that yields a stream of characters
23:52:45 <shachaf> The coroutine formulation seems the most natural for that sort of thing. It's not even about allocation in that case because you never want the full string in memory.
23:53:15 <ais523> I think you really have hit on an important discovery here
23:53:20 <shachaf> I think yielding a character at a time isn't really what you want (except maybe conceptually).
23:53:41 <shachaf> You just want to give it a buffer and have it fill the buffer as much as it can based on its current state.
23:53:55 <ais523> well, "yield…stream" would ideally have some sort of buffering, but maybe it could exist at a higher level somehow?
23:54:02 <ais523> rather than being built into the source code of the functions in question
23:55:17 <shachaf> Hmm, these are details you can figure out in some reasonable way. The main point is the way flow control should happen.
23:56:52 <ais523> shachaf: ironically, this actually /is/ a flow control problem (in the sense of working out how much should be buffered before sending it)