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00:37:35 <Lykaina> any other comments about the specs before i re-paste?
00:42:27 <Lykaina> https://paste.ee/p/tloTh updated repaste post Sgeo__'s suggestions...
00:43:27 <Lykaina> replaces paste from 19:32:22 edt
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01:33:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65959&oldid=65957 * Trickbrain26 * (+15) /* T */
01:34:53 <esowiki> [[Trickcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65960&oldid=65954 * Trickbrain26 * (-54)
01:36:43 <Lykaina> https://paste.ee/p/Qek9M replaces the source code paste
01:40:13 <esowiki> [[Lazy evaluation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65961&oldid=49764 * CatIsFluffy * (+14)
01:40:54 <Lykaina> https://paste.ee/p/tloTh information and a sample program is here
01:51:38 <Sgeo__> Lykaina, consider adding it to the Esolangs wiki? (If you're willing to put into public domain). I think people often discuss languages themselves on the talk pages
01:52:20 <Sgeo__> (If you don't want to put into public domain, then making a page and linking should be fine)
01:52:35 <Lykaina> not put the interpreter into public domain when i'm still improving the software
01:56:38 <Lykaina> i want to see what features i can squeeze in
02:09:14 <Sgeo__> Blah, just discovered that in 2018, my https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-RLE was replaced with a more general discussion. I'm not sure how to feel about this, I felt like "BF-RLE" named a specific encoding
02:11:51 <Sgeo__> This breaks zzo38's https://esolangs.org/wiki/GrainFimple spec unless GrainFimple's spec is updated to more precisely describe what is meant by BF-RLE
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02:23:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65962&oldid=65915 * Toel F * (+215) /* Introductions */
02:23:43 <esowiki> [[Troll Online]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65963 * Toel F * (+404) Created page with "Troll Online is a programming language builded in c#. It can connect to internet. Documentation, interpreter and the source are in this github repository: https://github.com/t..."
02:26:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65964&oldid=65959 * Toel F * (+19)
02:30:47 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65965&oldid=65929 * Toel F * (+55)
02:32:17 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65966&oldid=65965 * Toel F * (+2)
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03:49:53 <esowiki> [[Troll Online]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65967&oldid=65963 * Toel F * (+1)
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06:10:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Euphoria * New user account
06:25:35 <shachaf> non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs are tg
06:26:30 <kmc> non-interactive non-zero-knowledge non-proofs
06:29:13 <FireFly> I prefer interactive hugs I think
06:30:22 <shachaf> do you want an interactive hug
06:30:50 <kmc> i would like
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09:31:33 <Lykaina> https://paste.ee/p/FTqsX fixed typos in license and added copyright notice for spec notes + samples
10:05:25 <cpressey> Lykaina: sort of an esoteric computer architecture plus assembler? Do feel free to make an article on the wiki linking to it!
10:57:23 <HackEso> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
10:57:33 <int-e> this entry may be less useful than you might expect
10:57:45 <Taneb> int-e: that applies to most wisdom entries
10:58:11 <myname> it is way more useful than the monad one
10:58:16 <HackEso> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:19:16 <HackEso> A kittegory is just a small category.
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13:29:11 <cpressey> > mconcat [\n -> [n+1], \n -> [n-1,n*2]] 4
13:32:18 <cpressey> > (\n -> mconcat [[n+1], [n-1,n*2]]) 4
13:51:11 <cpressey> @pl \x -> foldl (.) id (reverse x) []
14:02:47 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65968&oldid=63882 * A * (-16) /* Syntax */
14:05:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binary to unary conversion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65969 * CarlosLuna * (+398) Asking for a general Unary to Binary conversion algorithm.
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14:18:20 <esowiki> [[Trash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65970 * A * (+1921) Created page with "[[Trash]] is an even simpler [[esoteric programming language]] that is designed to fullfill the CGCC definition of a programming language. ==Syntax== It is very simple (even s..."
14:19:42 <esowiki> [[Trash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65971&oldid=65970 * A * (+0) Typo
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14:47:04 <esowiki> [[Lazy evaluation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65972&oldid=65961 * A * (+85) Not yet.
14:50:54 <esowiki> [[Lazy evaluation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65973&oldid=65972 * A * (+218)
14:53:53 <esowiki> [[Lazy evaluation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65974&oldid=65973 * A * (+123)
14:56:03 <Lykaina> currently working on adding bitwise arithmatic
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14:59:08 <Lykaina> vote for name: totem vs echidna
15:00:18 <esowiki> [[Lazy evaluation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65975&oldid=65974 * A * (+308)
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15:18:44 <Lykaina> http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/spec_notes.pdf
15:23:10 <Lykaina> Which number does this Befunge code output: 9184611256>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
15:23:44 <Lykaina> i need to know wtf the captcha is talking about as well as the answer
15:24:44 <Lykaina> correction: 9504611032>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
15:25:14 <Taneb> Lykaina: have you tried trying to find a befunge interpreter?
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15:25:32 <Lykaina> don't know where to find one
15:26:20 <Lykaina> i'm trying to register on the wiki
15:28:07 <Taneb> Did you try using a search engine such as Google to find a befunge interpreter?
15:29:46 <fizzie> I think there's one on this channel as well?
15:30:49 <fizzie> `! befunge "olleh">:#,_@
15:31:20 <Lykaina> `! befunge 9504611032>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
15:31:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lykaina * New user account
15:32:33 <fizzie> FWIW, the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge article's "External resources" section also has a lot of interpreters, including at least two online ones.
15:33:02 <Lykaina> that is the weirdist captcha i have ever seen
15:33:15 <fizzie> We've had issues with spammers.
15:33:41 <fizzie> It used to be in Brainfuck, which I guess was a little more approachable?
15:34:09 <fizzie> And before/after that it was a quiz on languages.
15:34:57 <fizzie> All of those were defeated; I think we're maybe assuming by just using humans (to which the current one is vulnerable as well), since it seems unlikely anyone wrote custom code for solving the Brainfuck one, for a website this unpopular.
15:35:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65976&oldid=65962 * Lykaina * (+166) /* Introductions */
15:35:56 <fizzie> (That introduction requirement is another anti-spam barrier.)
15:38:47 <esowiki> [[Echidna]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65977 * Lykaina * (+76) Adding a placeholder for my language.
15:41:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65978&oldid=65964 * Lykaina * (+14) /* E */ adding Echidna to language list.
15:45:05 <esowiki> [[Echidna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65979&oldid=65977 * Lykaina * (+90) adding a link for current information
15:56:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binary to unary conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65980&oldid=65969 * CarlosLuna * (+1055) Adding an example of bounded Unary to Binary converter
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16:16:33 <b_jonas> I like the current captcha, and I could solve it without an interpreter
16:16:58 <b_jonas> I figured out what the loop does, it's like making a base 9 number from those digits but there was some little twist
16:17:17 <b_jonas> a brainfuck one would be harder
16:17:25 <b_jonas> I'd probably need an actual interpreter for it
16:21:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binary to unary conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65981&oldid=65980 * CarlosLuna * (-504) Improving the example of bounded Unary to Binary converter
16:24:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65982&oldid=65981 * CarlosLuna * (+6) Adding boldface formatting
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17:05:17 <fizzie> b_jonas: FWIW, the brainfuck one wasn't that bad. I think it produced a random string of the alphabet {a, b, c, d} by first forming the constant `a`, then having a sequence of +s, -s and .s with no loops.
17:07:55 <fizzie> And yes, it's a base 9 number except with 9 as a sentinel value and the digits backwards because of the stack.
17:08:10 <fizzie> `` dc -e '9i 230116405p'
17:22:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, that would work
17:22:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: but does it subtract 9 from each digit before interpreting it in base 9?
17:23:43 <fizzie> No. Well, technically yes, but only for the 'if' condition on whether the digit was 9.
17:25:09 <fizzie> Flattened out, the relevant snippet is :9-_ aka dup-nine-minus-if; so the stack will have [x x-9] at the _ (where x is the original digit), the _ pops off the x-9 and the rest (\9*+) multiplies the accumulator by 9 and adds x to it.
17:25:51 <fizzie> It's reusing the 9 both for the 9-_ condition (when going left-to-right) and for the 9* of the accumulator (when going right-to-left).
17:26:27 <b_jonas> but what does the ending with the dollar sign do?
17:26:48 <fizzie> That just drops off the extra 9.
17:27:30 <fizzie> The full stack at the if is [acc digit digit-9], the _ pops off digit-9 and the $ pops off digit (which in this case must've been 9, since digit-9 was zero) so that . prints the accumulator.
17:27:41 <b_jonas> wait, let me look at the befunge rules, I don't remmeber them
17:28:44 <fizzie> It also uses one of the implicit infinite number of 0s under the bottom of the stack as the initial accumulator value.
17:29:04 <fizzie> ...or does it. I guess it doesn't.
17:29:20 <fizzie> Yeah, no, I confused myself. Of course it doesn't, it would hit that sentinel.
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17:29:48 <fizzie> It's just that the last digit (the 2 there) is considered the initial accumulator, not one of the base-9 digits, arguably.
17:30:58 <b_jonas> yeah, that looks about right
17:31:49 <b_jonas> [ 9 #. |. 5 0 4 6 1 1 0 3 2
17:31:50 <j-bot> b_jonas: 100512662
17:35:11 <fizzie> Turns out the Brainfuck variant was mostly as I described, except with a bigger alphabet. It starts with a common initial prefix that loads 100 'd' (as 10*10), then generates a random sequence of X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X. where each of the Xs is uniformly randomly either "", "+" or "-", except the + or - is omitted if that would make the value less than 97 'a' or more than 122 'z'.
17:35:34 <fizzie> It's still pretty prone to creating strings from the beginning of the alphabet, since it starts from 'd' and does a random walk with a maximum step size of 1.
17:35:56 <fizzie> And in fact it can never reach 'z' because the longest sequence is 16.
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18:40:34 <int-e> Has Dr. Seuss ever been involved in any lawsuits?
18:41:47 <Hooloovo0> seems at least his estate was https://boingboing.net/2019/03/14/fair-use-vs-seuss.html
18:47:02 <int-e> Oh so some people got to say "Dr. Seuss sues [...]" :)
19:00:45 <esowiki> [[Troll Online]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65983&oldid=65967 * Dtuser1337 * (+3) Your page might suck, but i converted the example text to headings.
19:03:08 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65984&oldid=65966 * Dtuser1337 * (+39) /* PUBERTY */
19:09:00 <esowiki> [[Grid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65985&oldid=65920 * Hakerh400 * (+122) Corrected the algorithm description
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19:33:29 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65986&oldid=59395 * Dtuser1337 * (+28)
19:34:06 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65987&oldid=65986 * Dtuser1337 * (+26)
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20:30:03 <Lykaina> i must apoligize for misleading everybody into thinking ops L and M in Echidna were functioning. In reality, I haven't even designed the code for those, much less written them.
20:33:55 <Lykaina> i know the input. i know the intended output
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21:15:36 <Lykaina> since when does 0xff6a == 0xffb5?
21:20:50 <Lykaina> and 0xAAAA xor 0x5555 = 0xFFFE ?
21:25:05 <Lykaina> and 0xFFFF AND 0xFFFF = 0xFFFE ?
21:25:18 <Lykaina> something weird is going on
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21:29:38 <Lykaina> 0xFFFF AND 0xFFFF = 0xFFFE, 0xFFFE AND 0xFFFF = 0xFFFC ? where's the bug? I demand you show me, codeblocks
21:39:34 <oerjan> that's two letters down
21:43:52 <Lykaina> it was shifting the output to the left by 1 too much
21:47:17 <Lykaina> updated Echidna's documentation file
21:49:24 <Lykaina> it's a self-hosted pdf on the Echidna page. Not ready to be public domain.
22:00:44 <arseniiv> I thought about morphism composition notations and about (more or less natural) notations for application of a linear operator or its adjoint to a (co)vector and found out I think a very funny thing
22:03:39 <arseniiv> suppose A: U → V, B: V → W, v ∈ U, f ∈ W*, then if we agree to write Av for the application of A to v, it’s for a couple of reasons (regarding left and right modules, and also matrix notation) natural to write fB* for the application of B* to f. Now,
22:05:42 <arseniiv> we can end with * altogether (we have a type system to back us!) and write fB. Then we can write fBAv, for example. And now notice that BA here can denote both B <<< A and B* >>> A*
22:08:58 <arseniiv> or not here, but standalone also. But invoking fBAv beforehand could appeal for this notation choice
22:09:45 <arseniiv> (it reminds me of lenses now, and not without a reason)
22:09:58 <arseniiv> bye I hope this was interesting
22:11:58 <esowiki> [[Echidna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65988&oldid=65979 * Lykaina * (+137) adding a link for an interpreter.
22:13:32 <Lykaina> can someone look at what i linked about echidna and help me figure out what kind of esolang it is?
22:14:08 <Lykaina> I want to have a description on there at least.
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22:15:01 <ais523> it looks like an assembly language to me
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22:23:22 <esowiki> [[Echidna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65989&oldid=65988 * Lykaina * (+106) a little description
23:01:08 <b_jonas> Lykaina: so are the comparison, divide, modulus and shift right arithmetic instruction unsigned ones, and is there no signed less than instruction?
23:01:47 <b_jonas> Lykaina: and are those bitwise instructions the only way to do an indirect load (as opposed to an indirect store, for which you have a specific instruction)? that will lead to a lot of use of those bitwise thingies with redundant arguments I think
23:02:42 <b_jonas> it seems a bit odd that indirect load works that way, but you seem to allow immediate operands basically everywhere
23:02:48 <b_jonas> it's a strange instruction set
23:02:49 <ais523> b_jonas: you just reminded me of the "load data by rotating it ten times" trick that's sometimes used in Malbolge
23:05:18 <b_jonas> Lykaina: also I find the spec a bit hard to read and unclear, but it's not as bad as some of the things we see on the wiki
23:05:18 <shachaf> ais523: Did you go to the thing?
23:05:52 <shachaf> http://events.cs.bham.ac.uk/syco/strings3-syco5/
23:06:16 <ais523> I'm not all that interested in string diagrams
23:06:25 <ais523> and I'm fairly busy with other things at work
23:06:35 <shachaf> Hmm, what about compositional structures?
23:06:41 <ais523> I have been known to go to locally hosted conferences that I'm only tangentially interested in, but not this time
23:08:52 <b_jonas> I only went to locally hosted conferences where I was actually at least somewhat interested in the topic at the time, but of course within conferences I listened to talks in which I'm not too interested, if there isn't a better talk available in another track,
23:09:20 <b_jonas> and I definitely went to PhD dissertations where I wasn't interested in the topic, because those are social events for meeting friends and the thesis topic doesn't matter
23:13:00 <ais523> PhD defences/vivas aren't public in the UK (I know this differs between countries)
23:13:05 <ais523> it's just the candidate and the examiners
23:13:20 <b_jonas> they're always public here, they have to be
23:13:30 <ais523> well, they'd be hard to watch because the examiners are supposed to have learned everything from the PhD thesis already
23:13:39 <b_jonas> well, I think there may be closed ones if they're like connected to classified military stuff
23:13:46 <ais523> so they jump straight into asking technical questions about it, there'd basically be no context for anyone else
23:14:50 <b_jonas> so is there a formal celebration open to public after, or do the graduates skip right to the pub run?
23:14:55 <ais523> I can see the argument in wanting the candidate to give a presentation on the topic of their PhD and defend that, I guess it comes down to whether it's more important to defend the principle or the details
23:15:24 <ais523> you don't get the verdict right away, it comes by post a few weeks later after the examiners have discussed, and is normally several pages full of things they're concerned about and want correcting
23:15:45 <ais523> then you make the corrections and resubmit
23:16:04 <b_jonas> mind you, there is a closed part within the public defense, namely the part after all the questions when the committee discuss their decision, and for that part everyone else is ordered out of the room
23:16:11 <ais523> when they're finally happy you get told you're accepted, and then there are mass graduation ceremonies you can go to if you want a big official celebration
23:16:16 <b_jonas> I describe this in a comment, let me find the link
23:16:32 <ais523> I think the UK method is pretty good at avoiding, say, fallacious proofs
23:16:46 <ais523> especially if it's unclear how much effort they'll take to fiix
23:17:41 <shachaf> Does the UK still do snake fights?
23:18:33 <shachaf> Speaking of the UK, I'm a bit confusil about what's going on with parliament nowadays.
23:18:40 <ais523> no idea; I have a suspicion they'd be illegal, which doesn't mean they wouldn't happen but does mean I'd be unlikely to be aware of them if they did
23:18:40 <b_jonas> found it: http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2015-12.html%23d.2015-12-05.2340#comment-22088
23:19:12 <shachaf> I mean mandatory snake fights after your thesis defense.
23:19:21 <ais523> I didn't have one of those
23:19:37 <shachaf> @google snake fight thesis defense
23:19:38 <lambdabot> https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/faq-the-snake-fight-portion-of-your-thesis-defense
23:20:09 <b_jonas> ais523: members of the committee get the thesis well in advance, suppoedly read it and understand it, and even send questions to the candidate at least a few days before the defense,
23:20:29 <ais523> as for what's going on in parliament, right now nothing, Commons won't be back until Monday, Lords are asleep but will probably be approving the EUWA #6 tomorrow (they agreed to meet on Friday, which they normally don't, to get enough time to approve it)
23:20:54 <ais523> what's happened over the past couple of days is more interesting
23:21:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: about the parliament, I think because of conflicting promises, they have to sarifice two or three prime ministers every year, so that they can remain in the EU but have someone take the blame for the government not keeping their promise of exiting the EU
23:21:30 <ais523> basically there's a new prime minister (because the old prime minister resigned, the new prime minister is appointed by the same party that the old one came from)
23:22:19 <b_jonas> I understand the prime minister part, what I don't understand is in what way the queen was involved
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23:22:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: we don't have mandatory snake fights for PhD defenses here either
23:23:00 <shachaf> b_jonas: Odd. Maybe it's an American tradition.
23:23:02 <ais523> there is some concern among MPs that he will attempt to leave the EU with no agreements in place, which became much greater when he announced that parliament would be prorogued (basically shut down) until mid-October, when there might not be time to agree on a course of action
23:24:02 <fizzie> The Finnish thesis defence has a /lectio præcursoria/ in the front, and IIRC it's typically the only part done in Finnish (because normally the opponents are from abroad, and the thesis is in English) and I think it's mostly there so that the candidate's family has something for them as well.
23:24:03 <b_jonas> it's possible that some people fight snakes, because the less formal part of the celebration afterwards usually involves heavy drinking, but I'm quite sure it's not mandatory
23:24:21 <b_jonas> the snake fight is not mandatory that is, the heavy drinking is
23:24:59 <ais523> a while ago, because some of the Prime Minster's competitors in the (Conservative Party-internal) leadership debate had threatened to shut down parliament to prevent them interfering with Conservative plans for Brexit, a Northern Ireland-related bill got amended to force regular updates in Parliament on the situation in Northern Ireland, purely for the side effect of forcing Parliament to be open whilst not being offtopic
23:25:09 <ais523> which is why Parliament can't be shut down until beyond mid-October
23:25:58 <fizzie> I went to one thesis examination while in Leuven for a while, and all the questioning part was in Flemish, which made it a little hard to follow for me.
23:26:04 <ais523> anyway, the prorogation doesn't start until next week, and there's a clear majority among Members of Parliament (and Members of the House of Lords) that we shouldn't leave the EU without an agreement in place as to how it's done
23:26:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm, that FAQ says it can involve both venomous snakes and snakes with physical attacks
23:27:03 <ais523> so they've been trying to rush through an emergency law to prevent it happening (known the European Union (Withrdawal) Act No. 6), and the Government (i.e. the Prime Minister + allies) have been trying to stop them
23:28:13 <ais523> the problem is that sufficiently many MPs in the Conservative Party, together with almost all the MPs outside, disagree with the Prime Minister; this lead to some (~20) Conservatives voting against party line in order to get the EUWA #6 through, despite the Prime Minister threatening to throw them out of the party
23:28:20 <shachaf> Did the conservative party kick out all the people who voted against the act?
23:28:38 <ais523> yes! and as a result they no longer have a majority, i.e. they have less than half of the MPs even if you count allies
23:28:40 <b_jonas> ais523: would this be a normal summer break of the parliament, or a special break?
23:28:50 <fizzie> We had a "Brexit info" email at work for all UK employees today. The email just said the situation is "fluid" and that there's nothing new to report.
23:28:54 <ais523> b_jonas: we just had our normal summer break (it ended on Tuesday)
23:29:04 <shachaf> Right, I understood they lost their majority but I wasn't sure whether they'd left themselves or were kicked out.
23:29:10 <ais523> there's normally a small break over October, this is theoretically that break but it's been made way longer
23:29:23 <fizzie> I think they lost the majority even before the rebel alliance got kicked out?
23:29:26 <ais523> shachaf: one left of their own accord, the others were kcked out
23:29:31 <shachaf> I know one person joined the liberal democrats but the rest (including the father of the house?) are now just independent?
23:29:32 <fizzie> Because of that one defection, right.
23:29:48 <ais523> the rest are independent unless or until they join a party or form a new party
23:30:19 <ais523> although I think many of them are planning to be independent until the next election and then leave politics (some want to stay but may have problems being elected with the Conservatives running against them)
23:30:27 <b_jonas> but if the party kicks out their members, then don't they get replaced by other people on the party's list?
23:30:36 <ais523> b_jonas: no, we elect MPs not parties
23:30:39 <b_jonas> for parliament seats that is
23:30:54 <ais523> getting rid of an MP is almost impossible, there are only two ways
23:31:41 <ais523> a) if the MP is convicted of a sufficiently serious crime, then a petition of 10% of their constituents can force a new election (but they can run for the election if they want to; so far this has proven to be a bad idea but it hasn't stopped some MPs trying)
23:32:01 <ais523> b) MPs automatically get fired if they accept money from the Queen
23:32:22 <b_jonas> isn't there also a new MP if the old one dies?
23:32:34 <ais523> OK, yes, but I wouldn't recommend killing MPs
23:32:50 <b_jonas> they don't have to be killed
23:32:51 <ais523> point b) here is mostly used as a loophole for MPs to voluntarily step down, because they aren't legally allowed to resign; the Queen maintains a couple of useless jobs purely for the purpose of hiring MPs that want to resign
23:33:34 <ais523> one of them is a job hunting down outlaws in the Chiltern Hills, which became irrelevant ages ago because a) we have police and b) outlaws don't really exist as a concept any more
23:33:40 <ais523> so it's vacant execept when an MP needs to resign
23:33:51 <b_jonas> it's not theoretical, because Antall József died while he was minister-president, and got replaced by a different minister-president because he died
23:34:06 <shachaf> Oh man. That's pretty good.
23:34:30 <ais523> anyway, the Commons passed through all the stages of the EUWA #6 in a single day, so now the Lords have to confirm it
23:34:31 <b_jonas> I mean, we have had positions just to pay people, without a real job
23:35:07 <ais523> there was an attempted filibuster but the Lords have a huge majority against the Prime Minister's position, so the filibusterers gave up at about 1:30am
23:35:22 <shachaf> They submitted 100 amedments to the bill, right?
23:35:37 <ais523> (the opposition Lords were taking it seriously, though; they had a rota set up, and brought lots of food, sleeping bags, etc. to the House of Lords to make sure they could outlast their much smaller number of political opponents)
23:35:55 <ais523> *so an amendment can be dealt with in a few seconds if there's no real support or no real opposition to it
23:36:12 <ais523> show of hands or voice vote, move on
23:36:27 <shachaf> "opposition lords" means opposed to the majority in the house of lords, or opposed to the government?
23:36:29 <ais523> so for a filibuster to work, you need sufficiently many Lords on your side that the verdict is unclear
23:36:36 <ais523> shachaf: opposed to the government
23:36:42 <b_jonas> but if you don't elect parties, then how are the members of the parliament chosen?
23:37:06 <b_jonas> or the lower house at least
23:37:19 <ais523> the funny thing is, the Lords have a built in Conservative majority because they move so slowly, but (because they move slowly and the Conservatives have changed position rapidly recently) the Conservatives in the Lords are mostly opposed to the Prime Minister
23:37:35 <shachaf> It's kind of bizarre that filibusters are still a thing that nominally works, rather than being treated as bad faith.
23:37:41 <ais523> b_jonas: basically we get a list of candidates for each constituency; if you're standing for a party that's listed on the ballot for information
23:38:30 <b_jonas> ais523: and delegates from constituencies fill all places in the lower chamber?
23:38:43 <ais523> shachaf: the UK version works fairly well I think? a) it only works in the Lords, not the Commons, and the Lords can't block a bill indefinitely, only delay it; b) it lets a really determined minority delay a bill for a while but you have to keep talking / keep voting / etc. so if the minority is too small you won't have the stamina, and if they aren't committed enough they won't bother
23:39:05 <ais523> (the smaller the minority filibustering, the less effort it'll take from the majority to break the filibuster, as their anti-filibuster rota will be easy to set up)
23:39:36 <b_jonas> hmm, I think the US has some such system too
23:39:46 <b_jonas> but they have states, so it makes more sense
23:40:42 <shachaf> In the US senate it seems that people are slowly changing the rules to get rid of filibusters in various contexts.
23:40:53 <ais523> the filibuster in this circumstance was pretty unique as the Lords need to get the EUWA #6 through before Parliament gets prorogued, which could happen on Monday (the prorogation order was vague as to the exact date, but it's some time next week)
23:41:25 <b_jonas> doesn't the prorogation get delayed while people are actively filibustering?
23:41:55 <shachaf> I suspect the US congress is more pathological than the UK system.
23:42:00 <b_jonas> if they can keep up for that long, that is, which isn't easy
23:42:13 <ais523> so the pro-Government minority would only have to last a few days, but a) they were too small and b) they may have stopped due to optics (also, possibly there was a deal brokered between the two sides, but IIRC people are denying it)
23:42:20 <ais523> b_jonas: no, the date's absolute
23:42:45 <fizzie> And it's nominally done by the monarch anyway, right?
23:42:57 <ais523> fizzie: yes, but she has to follow the advice of the Prime Minister
23:43:31 <ais523> or, well, "has to"; it's unlikely that the monarchy would dare break that particular convention, but laws don't technically apply to them, so in theory the Queen could do pretty much any thing
23:44:29 <fizzie> It's kind of funny how Borris (our local nickname) says the prorogation has nothing to do with Brexit, and how there's plenty of time to talk about Brexit when it's over.
23:44:46 <ais523> "plenty of time" = about 2 weeks
23:44:54 <ais523> which isn't enough to implement most suggested solutions
23:45:00 <ais523> e.g. 2 weeks isn't enough time to hold an election
23:46:13 <ais523> (shachaf: on the subject of elections, the prime minister attempted to call one after losing the EUWA #6 vote, but didn't have the votes even to do that; the opposition want to get EUWA #6 through first before calling an election, due to potential issues like using the election to dissolve Parliament for the /rest/ of the time before October 31…)
23:46:52 <shachaf> Is calling general elections common?
23:48:09 <ais523> it used to be that the prime minister could call elections unilaterally, and would do so when they thought they had the best chance of their party being re-elected / gaining a larger majority
23:48:47 <b_jonas> electing a prime minister directly seems such an odd thing to do, exactly because it can get you into these strange situations where their government can't function because they don't have the support of the parliament
23:48:49 <ais523> but then the Liberal Democrat / Conservative coalition government happened, and the Liberal Democrats were concerned that the Conservatives would just call an election as soon as they thought they could get rid of the Lib Dems
23:49:30 <ais523> so as part of the "price" for the coalition, the Lib Dems passed a law that made it almost impossible to call an election unless a) everyone agreed on it or b) the Prime Minister lost their majority
23:50:14 <ais523> now, b) has actually happened, but the opposition are delaying the official no-confidence vote (that tests if a majority exists) until after EUWA #6 goes through
23:50:29 <b_jonas> ok, it makes more sense that way
23:50:53 <ais523> so everyone knows that the Prime Minister has lost their majority but it hasn't officially been tested, so they're still notionally in charge for the time being
23:51:09 <b_jonas> so that's also why they need the filibuster?
23:51:33 <ais523> the filibuster was an attempt to prevent EUWA #6 passing, but it's already failed
23:51:44 <ais523> so EUWA #6 is quite likely to pass some time tomorrow
23:51:56 <fizzie> Also odd: this one/two/three-line whip thing, which apparently is the number of times the instruction is underlined.
23:52:16 <ais523> also zero, but that's equivalent to not whipping at all
23:52:17 <fizzie> You've got a charmingly quaint parliamentary system.
23:52:54 <ais523> the actual numbers of lines aren't really defined
23:52:56 <fizzie> (Probably that's what happens when you've had one so long.)
23:53:23 <ais523> Conservative MPs ignored three-line whips under Theresa May quite frequently and nothing happened to them, probably because she'd lost control of the party (and ended up having to resign)
23:54:09 <ais523> meanwhile, in Boris Johnson's first vote, he threatened to expel anyone from the party who voted against it, and then actually did, but given the numbers he's probably /also/ lost control of (a different subset of) the party
23:55:46 <b_jonas> so have the leaders of those who were expelled from the party started three new parties, each of them claiming to be the one true successor to the conservative party, which has lost its, uh, approval of the people or whatever fancy phrase they use
23:56:01 <b_jonas> because that's how parties tend to die here
23:56:40 <ais523> well, there was a party of breakaway MPs (and technically still is), who have changed their name at least twice since and have lost many MPs
23:56:44 <ais523> so it's not doing too well
23:57:01 <b_jonas> it's how Orbán got his continued rule basically, because every other significant party fell apart that way
23:57:05 <ais523> the people expelled from the Conservatives recently are mostly still independents, but that's not surprising given how recent it was
23:57:33 <b_jonas> might take some more months I guess
23:57:54 <ais523> several MPs who have defected from Conservatives or Labour over Brexit have since joined the LIberal Democrats (traditional third party; the Scottish National Party are larger but don't get any real support outside Scotland)
23:58:22 <fizzie> Also calling back to the thesis discussion, in Finland actually the bit that keeps things free of errors and the quality bar high enough is the "preliminary examination", which is done offline, takes some weeks, and all but guarantees that everyone who gets to the public examination stage will pass it.
23:58:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: is there a mandatory fight with a snake?
23:58:58 <ais523> fizzie: right, the preliminary examination stage is basically the entire thing for us
23:59:36 <ais523> except that after it, the corrections period can be very long (the length depends on how many corrections there are and how large they are, but is normally 3 or 6 months if the thesis is well-received, more if it has major problems)
23:59:41 <fizzie> b_jonas: No, Finland isn't that known for snakes. We've got just that one poisonous one.