00:26:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:55:33 -!- Lykaina has joined. 00:59:00 b_jonas: i don't know any other way 01:04:17 -!- ARCUN has joined. 01:05:49 By definition, a bully automaton is just an extension of a cellular automata 01:06:12 So would ALPACA still be viable to implement a bully automaton? 01:07:09 20:29:07 Lykania: again, do not define global variables in a header file that you #include into multiple source files. especially not non-constant globals. 01:08:16 any idea where else i should declare global variables? 01:08:32 and define 01:09:14 and what's the difference (in C) between declaring and defining? 01:10:56 A /definition/ of an identifier is a declaration for that identifier that: for an object, causes storage to be reserved for that object; -- 01:11:29 Typically you'll have a declaration that's not a definition (such as `extern int x;`) in a .h file, and a corresponding definition (`int x = 123;`) in exactly one .c file. 01:11:54 why shouldn't they go in headers? 01:12:22 oh 01:12:29 Because if you have it in a header file, chances are that header file is going to be included in more than one translation unit, and then you end up with more than one definition for the same object, which is generally illegal. 01:12:33 (With some subtlety.) 01:12:49 b_jonas wasn't beclear enough 01:13:00 http://ix.io/1Mys (from the C99 rationale) explains it better than I could. 01:13:58 ...well, "better" is subjective. But definitely in more detail. 01:14:35 In particular, it goes into the detail of what the standard model is, and what happens in practice on many implementations. 01:15:43 C looks so simple from the outside, yet it's actually quite complex 01:16:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:17:09 Its subjective, but C++ just looks more natural to learn for me 01:17:36 Which is weird, since my first language was C# 01:17:38 I guess it has at least the benefit of nobody accidentally thinking it's simple. 01:18:30 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:21:38 -!- ARCUN has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:56 -!- ARCUN has joined. 01:23:17 fizzie: can you look at the echidna repo and find the problem b_jonas is complaining about? 01:23:42 i mean, it's location 01:23:43 So, again, is ALPACA viable for the implementation of bully automaton? 01:25:01 Lykaina: I assume they might've been talking about globals.h, and/or argnums.h. 01:28:30 A declaration of the form of `unsigned long progindex;` is what's called a /tentative definition/, which (if a translation unit has no actual definition) is treated as if there was a definition like `unsigned long progindex = 0;` in the translation unit. So if globals.h is included in, say, cmds.c and main.c, both will have a definition for it, which is not strictly conforming C. 01:29:33 Assuming they end up in the same program, anyway. 01:31:24 ("If an identifier declared with external linkage is used in an expression (other than [unrelated exception]), somewhere in the entire program there shall be exactly one external definition for the identifier; otherwise, there shall be no more than one.") 01:34:03 Many implementations are in practice more relaxed than that and allow multiple definitions esp. as long as they don't have an initializer, but that's just a common extension and not guaranteed by the standard. 01:36:51 A strictly conforming program could, for example, have a globals.h with `extern unsigned long progindex;`, and then either in a dedicated globals.c, or in some other one .c file where it makes sense, include an `unsigned long progindex;` to provide the "exactly one" definition required for it. 01:37:34 (A lot of people would prefer to avoid global state entirely, but that's more of a design question than a correctness question.) 01:38:09 look now 01:38:30 i just pushed what i think is a fix 01:39:17 I don't have any complaints about that one, at least on a quick glance. 01:39:31 so it's better? 01:39:45 Yes, assuming I've interpreted b_jonas's criticism right. 01:39:52 Except that it's exceedingly strange to put header guards *outside* the header files. 01:40:38 oops 01:40:44 i'll fix that 01:41:28 Also, it's safe to include standard headers like multiple times. It doesn't hurt to guard against that, but you don't need to unless you want to. 01:41:58 ("Standard headers may be included in any order; each may be included more than once in a given scope, with no effect different from being included only once, except [a niche thing].") 01:44:37 pushed 01:47:00 Well, I mean... normally you'd have #ifndef H_DEFINES #define H_DEFINES as the first two lines of defines.h itself, and an #endif as the last line. That way all the different places where it's included won't need to (a) remember to wrap the #include in a #infdef-#define-#endif sequence, and (b) coordinate what the name used for the header guard is. 01:48:15 oh 01:49:21 Of course from the compiler's perspective there's no difference whether those are inside the .h file or around the #include statement, it just treats the whole thing as a sequence of lines. It's just a convenience thing. 01:49:27 do i need to have the license in every file or just in the LICENSE file? 01:50:49 #pragma once 01:50:49 ! 01:51:11 I'm not qualified to give legal advice, and I've seen both done. 01:51:11 what's that? 01:51:19 It's another nonstandard extension. 01:52:12 kmc: what are you asking me to change? 01:52:55 no 01:52:58 i was just saying 01:53:06 that you can use #pragma once instead of include guards 01:53:16 if all the compilers you want to use support it 01:53:22 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:53:22 it's faster and less error-prone 01:53:37 I wouldn't. But it's true, you definitely can. 01:53:48 faster because, as soon as a header has been seen to have #pragma once, the compiler will not even bother reading it again 01:54:06 although I think these days compilers also detect include guards and treat them similarly 01:58:43 -!- ARCUN has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:58:46 aiui what kmc said 01:59:14 the main advantage of #pragma once is not having to pick an include guard format 01:59:45 I have actually had issues with include guard name collisions once or twice 02:03:01 Regarding the performance question, https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=58770 02:05:12 As for the correctness question, I understand a number of implementations have had issues determining what exactly is the same file, given symlinks and all that. 02:07:23 Although you can very reasonably say that you've got bigger problems if, in a single build operation, the same header file is reached via two unrelated paths. 02:08:14 it probably happens 02:10:00 pushed 02:10:15 fizzie's advice 02:14:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:16:52 Should probably have a look at what this language is all about in the first place. Does it have anything to do with the spiky mammals or is that just a name? 02:17:02 name 02:19:22 Aw. They're pretty cute. 02:19:33 fizzie: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_02a2.pdf 02:22:07 [[NotBrainFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66054 * Spleeshmicannon * (+1325) Created page with "'''NotBrainFuck''' (or not brainfuck) is an extension of brainfuck by Jack Benson ([[User:Spleeshmicannon|Spleeshmicannon]]). It adds 8 new symbols to make it easier for begin..." 02:26:44 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:34:30 fizzie: Echidna was originally designed to be run on an Arduino, but memory requirements eventually made this unfeasable, with the Arduino version being shelved. 02:35:26 I then modified the PC version to use far more memory. 02:36:57 eventually, i figured out how to load the file into ram and run the program from there 02:37:50 there are 20 Ops, from G - Z 02:39:24 the interpreter has problems with the if/while loops on while mode that i am unsure how to debug 02:42:31 at the moment, i feel it's lacking in ops, and i think i can be willing to have ops 0-9 and A-F if needed (i wanted to not use those) 02:44:15 any questions? 02:48:03 Not at this point, because I have to sleep instead. But I like the L operation, it kind of reminds me of INTERCAL's "select" operator. 02:48:42 Finally! Someone who likes L! 02:57:08 kmc: even though it doesn't have "pragma", how do you feel about Echidna? 02:57:41 (not sure if you are still active) 02:58:52 i don't know anything about echidna 02:59:21 wait what does arg1<=1 do in L? 02:59:25 read whan i told fuzzie 02:59:44 http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_02a2.pdf took me a while to find it 02:59:56 might want to put that on the esolang wiki or the github 03:00:31 (was just in scrollback but /me never reads that far 03:01:39 oh <<= 03:40:13 -!- imode has joined. 04:06:56 -!- tromp has joined. 04:11:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:14:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:15:03 do i need to have the license in every file or just in the LICENSE file? ← I don't know whether or not it's legally necessary to put the license in every file, but a) it doesn't hurt and b) there are a lot of good practical reasons to do it that way 04:15:27 if you're using a license written professionally, it'll normally have an appendix giving approved wording to place in every file (which is shorter than the license itself) 04:37:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 05:15:09 -!- MDude has joined. 05:54:54 -!- tromp has joined. 05:59:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:31:56 -!- tromp has joined. 07:43:15 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 08:00:47 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:08:50 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:15:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:40:52 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 622 seconds). 08:42:05 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:43:16 Lykiana: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-09-07.html#lrh 08:43:31 about global variables 08:44:08 `5 w 08:44:14 1/1:mother//A mother is a person who practices mothology. \ dc//dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[') \ wat//ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው። \ atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper". \ mussel//Mussels are boily's natural enemies. Fortunately he runs faster than them. 08:44:34 Lykaina: ^ 08:44:47 i agree on wat 08:45:15 iirc globals.h was included to two C source files 08:48:09 I should figure out a way to make global variables work across .so reloads. 08:52:08 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:53:21 ais523: whether there's a separate long license and you only include a short text and reference to it, or whether there's a short license that you include in full, also seems to be a matter of taste between licenses. 08:54:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:54:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:55:51 The X11 license, most BSD-like licenses, and the boost license are short enough, and at least the FAQ https://www.boost.org/users/license.html considers this an advantage. I personally don't like the boost license though because it doesn't mention a time limit or geograhpical area (eg. "worldwide perpetual"). 08:58:17 Whereas the apache license, which is pretty similar to the boost license, is too long to embed into every source file, so for that, they use just a short version with reference in source files. 08:59:07 In effect, the short licenses don't tend to work, because many project derive parts from code with various other licenses, so they have to include a separate notice anyway to tell which part comes with what license. 08:59:38 the wtfpl works 09:00:37 This is especially typical for big amalgam projects like ffmpeg and mplayer, each of which embed like a hundred codecs and a large part of each other (it's a miracle that they haven't yet blown up exponentially by recursively embedding each other). 09:02:58 Similarly the creative commons licenses are also too long to embed. 09:06:02 The MIT license requires that you include it, so all the projects that have only a one-line statement to the effect of "License: MIT" aren't actually under the MIT license. 09:06:20 And y'know what? This matters almost not at all 09:08:49 cpressey: sure, even the short disclaimers are always at least a few lines long, except for the ones that are equivalent to the WTFPL, such as the sqlite non-license. 09:10:09 I like the irony though. 09:10:11 The short form reference to the apache license is 15 lines long 09:12:49 cpresseyllo 09:12:58 What's the Prompt thing you were talking about the other day? 09:13:50 But that's still shorter than the 24 long line boost license 09:14:15 shachaf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html 09:14:31 cpressey: It's not related to delimited continuations 09:14:43 * cpressey frowns 09:15:05 shachaf: It's not related to delimited continuations 09:15:47 Perhaps I should say, it's not *obviously* related to delimited continuations 09:18:00 Oh, that thing. 09:19:34 It's "just" the free monad, right? 09:19:42 Or the free monad of Coyoneda of f. 09:20:35 shachaf: cpressey: yeah the connection to free monads uses a fairly odd functor: http://paste.debian.net/1099707/ 09:21:58 (maybe you can make more sense of that than I can) 09:25:21 Yes, that functor is sometimes called Coyoneda. 09:25:30 It's the free functor on a type constructor, if that means something to you. 09:25:44 Not really, sorry 09:26:33 OK. It's not that useful a statement anyway. 09:27:05 If my computer wasn't presently so slow I could type a better explanation. One moment. 09:27:08 scary 09:27:28 * Lykaina wakes 09:27:31 brb 09:28:39 Hmm, I'll just try anyway. 09:29:32 -!- tromp has joined. 09:29:50 Lykania: I haven't yet looked at how you're now reading the source code into memory and how you use it, or changing the data memory to 16-bit, so I can't comment on that yet 09:30:42 i am doing the global variable thing now 09:30:51 cpressey: I don't remember how much Haskell you know. 09:31:24 The type is this: data Coyoneda f a = forall x. Coyoneda (f x) (x -> a) 09:31:43 and using the kind of header guards that go on top and bottom of every header file 09:36:07 It's about fmap fusion, or something. 09:36:27 It turns (fmap f . fmap g . fmap h) into fmap (f . g . h) 09:36:58 back 09:39:07 i meant that, at the moment, Echidna uses the global variable suggestion and the kind of header guards that gow on top an bottom of each header file. 09:49:22 README.md pushed 09:57:30 [[Echidna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66055&oldid=66042 * Lykaina * (+434) Updating the info to match the Github README. 10:10:04 README.md pushed again 10:10:47 shachaf: I don't really know Haskell, in the sense that I've never built up good intuitions about anything in its type system. 10:12:12 I still don't really know what a monad is. 10:12:28 `? monad 10:12:30 Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. 10:12:30 `? burrito 10:12:31 Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ 10:12:43 `quote burrito 10:12:44 875) btw, I finally discovered what a burrito was, recently they're kind of nice to eat but don't really resemble monads \ 908) well what is time imo: an illusion [...] elliott, I think it's more like a burrito If you have too much of time you get ill But damn it felt good You only get out what you put in, unless your time was made by someone else, which isn't as fun yeah, wisdom doesn't know either 10:14:26 I read an article explaining how they're monoids in the category of endofunctors, and *while reading* that article, I could see it. But it doesn't stick. 10:15:21 cpressey: that said, apparently to program haskell, you don't have to know what monads are in full generality. you just have to understand the dozen common monads and the dozen common monad transformers and how they combine. 10:17:20 You don't *have* to use monads at all when writing in Haskell, except to do I/O, which you can save til the end and treat as a magical invokation. 10:17:55 You don't even really need to know that IO is a monad 10:18:43 cpressey: have you tried reading You Could Have Invented Monads? 10:19:40 Taneb: Once, a long time ago. It doesn't stick. 10:19:44 i read cakes, custard and category theory 10:19:48 cpressey: "save til the end" in what sense? you may want to use interactive IO 10:19:58 myname: recent editions changed the name to How To Bake Pi 10:20:13 In case you're recommending people go out and buy a copy 10:20:14 [[NotBrainFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66056&oldid=66054 * A * (-110) Here you go 10:20:28 okay 10:20:34 and of course some programs are easier to write if you do use the ST monad, to be able to prove that a function is pure even if it uses certain impure internals 10:20:43 (as in mutable arrays) 10:20:48 (I have a copy of Cakes, Custard and Category Theory but I haven't read it yet) 10:20:58 wob_jonas: You don't *have* to use interactive IO to write, say, a compiler 10:21:11 it's not that deep a read 10:21:36 cpressey: sure you do, at least if it's a compiler for a language where files can include other files and you don't know which files in advance 10:21:40 Yes but I keep wanting to follow along with the exercises and that means going to the shop and buying ingredients 10:22:06 that includes not only preprocessor includes, but indirect linker dependencies 10:23:09 wob_jonas: So your argument is that you have to understand a dozen common monad transformers in order to program in Haskell because the compilers you write in Haskell are necessarily ones with #include statements 10:23:32 cpressey: and if you have a compiler where you aren't sure that it can't be very slow (or infinitely slow) for some input files, then it may be better to write error/warning messages early, before you finish compiling everything 10:24:06 cpressey: no, that's not my argument. my argument is that you don't always write compilers, so it's worth to understand at least how to use IO interactively; 10:24:34 -!- grumble has joined. 10:24:40 and that I want to use mutable arrays for efficiently, for which it's worth to understand ST to be able to use them inside pure functions in a way that the compiler can prove safe. 10:25:13 you probably aren't required to use the other monads or monad transformers directly. 10:25:14 wob_jonas: Right, well as I said, I *don't* understand them. It doesn't stick. Should I stop programming in Haskell? 10:25:24 obviously you'll use lists, but not specifically their monad instance. 10:25:54 cpressey: no, because if you stop then you'll probably never understand them, unless you program something very similar to haskell instead 10:26:21 wob_jonas: It's been 10 years. I don't have any reason to assume I'll ever understand them. 10:26:45 Do you need to understand them to use them? 10:27:21 cpressey: how about the special case of IO where you glue a >>= onto every IO primitive (except the ones that terminate the program), but don't use >>= with a composed value on the left? 10:27:42 More like 12 years: I wrote this in 2007: https://github.com/catseye/Hev/blob/master/src/Hev.hs 10:27:58 Oh, apparently I started it in 2005, so: 14 years. 10:28:45 Doesn't use a single monad, except in the driver code that reads cmdline arguments and the input file and outputs the result. 10:30:14 cpressey: have you written code in non-haskell languages that does interactive IO in an event-driven continuation-passings style where you write explicit continuations to run when an event fires, instead of language support for threads with blocking IO? 10:31:21 because as far as I understand, if you do that style consistently so that you do it for every IO operation, even for ones that don't block or the ones that only count as IO in haskell (i.e. accessing mutable state), you get IO monad with >>= only on the right of primitives 10:31:44 at least that's how I understand IO, but it could be wrong, or it could be just one of the many food metaphors for IO 10:32:04 cpressey: I think Haskell people typically say "monoid in the category of endofunctors" as a joke to try to make things complicated? 10:32:25 It's not very complicated but also not very helpful. 10:32:27 maybe someone who understands haskell a bit more can tell me whether that's a reasonable way to think of it 10:32:39 Anyway this is irrelevant for Coyoneda, which is a pretty simple type. 10:32:44 shachaf: yes, I think that's intended as a joke 10:32:48 lol 10:33:00 "pretty simple type" 10:33:08 wob_jonas: Yes, that's pretty reasonable. 10:33:29 I once wrote this: https://stackoverflow.com/a/13538351 10:35:59 shachaf: oh wow, that mentions that IO mechanism that I've only seen in that one crazy esolang 10:36:22 wob_jonas: is that crazy esolang called Haskell? 10:37:09 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_K 10:37:22 Taneb: no, Haskell has a different IO mechanism 10:37:43 which that writeup also mentions 10:37:52 (what a surprise) 10:39:15 shachaf: ok, but that doesn't seem to explain how you can write IO as an abstraction of ContIO. is there an explanation for that somewhere? 10:39:39 wob_jonas: Lazy K has the same IO mechanism as Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download 10:40:31 Taneb: ok, then it's two crazy esolangs 10:40:34 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:40:40 fair enough 10:40:46 And it's fairly similar to Binary Lambda Calculus 10:40:58 (which uses strings of bits, I believe, rather than characters or codepoints) 10:41:55 ok, I think if I saw that esolang, it didn't stick in my head 10:42:16 or in my hair or whatever 10:42:41 Yeah, it has a hard to remember name 10:43:31 And it's not particularly original 10:47:12 wob_jonas: explicit continuations on event handlers sounds like Javascript with Promises. 10:47:55 [[Vafix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66057 * A * (+205) New unimplemented thought experiment 10:52:24 In a programming lanugage strictly following the actor model, how is input (e.g. command line input, key presses) handled? 10:52:59 Some sort of special actor? 10:53:01 I don't know what the actor model is 10:53:21 but sure, if it's foo-oriented then keypresses are probably a kind of foo 10:53:25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model 10:53:50 wob_jonas: What do you mean? 10:54:37 Taneb: is that like holywood actors who must look as beautiful as a fashion model all the time? 10:55:00 wob_jonas: I think it's more like models who gain popularity and want more money sometimes start acting too 10:55:01 Taneb: I can put it this way: if I were designing an actor language, I'd make the source of keystrokes an actor 10:55:29 That said, in Erlang, iirc,it's not like that, you just call io:readln() like everyone else 11:04:06 I can see having to look at all I/O like you're writing Promises in Javascript (I guess) but it escapes me why anyone would want to model *non*-I/O things like that. 11:05:52 Not too long ago, I saw a unification algorithm written in Haskell, built with a state monad. 11:05:55 whyyyyyyyyyyyy 11:06:06 cpressey: that's actually two steps. firstly they model not just interactive blocking IO, but every IO, even the ones that can't block, as the same sort of IO action; 11:06:15 then they model access to mutable state the same way 11:06:44 and inter-thread synchronization as well 11:07:35 but I think the reason is always that they want the language to be pure functional 11:08:01 with every function being deterministic and side-effectless 11:08:35 A language that's pure functional, where every library has an interface that mocks an effectful language. Again I ask: whyyyyyyy 11:09:14 it would just be a different language without. if you don't like it, use ocaml or rust or something. 11:09:28 and that applies to me, I don't use haskell for anything anymore 11:09:40 (well, except some lambdabot one-liners or something) 11:10:20 I do like it, though, because it's essentially the only popular language that actually is purely functional. 11:10:57 but if you do want a purely functional language, then you need to have those abstractions over everything that isn't purely functional 11:10:59 If users of the only popular language that's purely functional write their algorithms in terms of state mutation, maybe that means those algorithms are best expressed as state mutation. 11:11:44 shachaf: at least if you care about real-world efficiency 11:12:21 or interaction with anything outside the program 11:15:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:29:30 Well, I don't, so, until a better language comes along, I'll just learn to live with the alienation, I suppose. 11:34:28 you could just use a language that isn't pure functional, but use the pure functional subset for much of your code 11:35:20 I do that sometimes with Scheme. 11:35:50 do you do it with ocaml? 11:36:11 I don't write OCaml. 11:39:58 Well, at least I understand continuations. I think. 11:40:05 * cpressey goes for a walk 11:40:15 whoa, more schema incompatibility 11:40:25 only forwards, not backwards 11:40:34 or wait 11:40:44 which one is backwards compatibility and which one is forward compatibility? 11:40:52 I think it's only backwards, not forwards 11:43:08 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:50:29 hmm no 12:13:05 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66058&oldid=66057 * A * (+659) 12:16:24 On a positive note, a nonstandard formulation of function composition that I came up with for an experimental concatenative language I'm working on, does appear to be associative and have an identity. So I'll be able to keep working on that. 12:17:31 cpressey: that sounds scary 12:19:07 but then, I guess, any monoid operation can be thought of as function composition of the bound products with elements of the monoid 12:19:28 also known as "every group is a permutation group" 12:20:21 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66059&oldid=66058 * A * (+1103) 12:28:28 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66060&oldid=66059 * A * (+1031) /* Execution scheme */ More of the execution 12:28:46 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 12:34:15 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66061&oldid=66060 * A * (+585) Complete odd process 12:36:55 -!- grumble has changed nick to \emph{grumble}. 12:37:57 -!- FraterEST has joined. 12:38:23 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:40:25 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66062&oldid=66061 * A * (+564) 12:57:10 I found the unification algorithm I mentioned above, if anyone is interested: https://github.com/parsonsmatt/unification/blob/master/Unification.pdf 13:16:50 -!- atslash has joined. 13:16:54 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66063&oldid=66062 * A * (+370) /* Vafix in comparision with a normal infix */ 13:32:01 gtg wake 13:33:20 -!- Lykaina has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:52:54 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:07:08 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:16:19 -!- Lykaina has joined. 14:26:11 [[Encapsulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66064&oldid=66039 * A * (+100) /* Computational class */ 14:26:23 -!- rain2 has joined. 14:28:13 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:35:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:36:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:51:42 hi 14:52:18 just seet up email filters for the annoying github alerts i actually want 14:56:14 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66065&oldid=66063 * A * (+32) /* Vafix in comparision with a normal infix */ 14:58:29 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66066&oldid=66065 * A * (+358) /* Parentheses and rules */ 14:58:41 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66067&oldid=65944 * YamTokTpaFa * (+96) /* Examples */ 15:00:09 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66068&oldid=66066 * A * (+165) 15:06:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:12:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:12:37 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 15:21:13 [[Talk:Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66069&oldid=61433 * YamTokTpaFa * (+535) /* About unclear conditional looping instructions. */ new section 15:29:03 -!- FraterEST has left. 15:46:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:46:42 -!- tromp has joined. 15:48:19 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:53:30 -!- andrewg12 has joined. 15:53:37 h 16:00:09 hi andrewg12 16:00:58 sup 16:02:50 so used to using linux with it's multiple desktops that when i use windows it gets harder 16:03:26 keep doing ctrl-alt-left 16:03:47 which is something different in windows 16:04:12 i dunno 16:04:15 i prefer windows 16:04:37 i prefer linux 16:06:05 o 16:11:49 sigh: https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/1052743/linux/what-is-nv_queue-and-why-is-it-the-top-process-on-my-system-/ (solution: don't look at top) 16:36:43 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:48:00 Another bad idea: watching open network connections while firefox is open with nothing but a blank page. Wtf are you doing, Firefox? 16:50:27 This may be too much to expect, but why can't we make a browser that, when starting up on a blank page, makes zero network connections? 16:51:05 zzo38: don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question. 16:53:32 [[Arch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66070&oldid=64661 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* Pop */ 16:53:43 [[Arch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66071&oldid=66070 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* Point */ 16:53:57 [[Arch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66072&oldid=66071 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* Cells & Split */ 16:54:52 [[Arch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66073&oldid=66072 * Areallycoolusername * (-1) /* Properties */ 16:58:50 [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66074&oldid=65775 * CarlosLuna * (+1469) Adding the "Unary to binary conversion" example. 17:06:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:21:17 int-e: I had a somewhat similar feeling as the nv_queue for kidle_inject. 17:29:37 hello 17:29:45 Hi 17:30:55 what about the language or 17:32:28 The Languages. 17:37:08 meh: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=842292 17:37:42 anyway... the most suspicious looking connection was the captive portal detection 17:39:50 From here I get detectportal.firefox.com = CNAME detectportal.prod.mozaws.net = CNAME detectportal.firefox.com-v2.edgesuite.net = CNAME a1089.dscd.akamai.net = 46.125.232.9 or 46.125.232.24; these resolve back to 046125232009.public.t-mobile.at and 046125232024.public.t-mobile.at respectively. 17:40:44 Which is not the kind of host name I wanted to see my browser connect to unasked. 17:41:18 -!- imode has joined. 17:52:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:54:25 And wtf is push.services.mozilla.com good for, aside from giving Mozilla information on how long people keep their browsers open? 17:55:03 nothing 17:55:07 (It can be disabled. But this is the kind of thing I want to be opt-in, not opt-out. At which point it's clear that software developers shouldn't bother with it in the first place.) 18:00:26 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:03:59 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:16:52 ow, libnss is big... I guess I don't want to rebuild that myself just to see what's inside those https connections :/ 18:16:59 -!- imode has joined. 18:38:30 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Visual-mov * New user account 18:44:22 -!- andrewg12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:46:17 int-e: Is that the thing the Web Push API on Firefox uses? 18:47:37 fizzie: Shouldn't that be up to the particular website? 18:48:12 I don't know, that's why I asked. 18:48:13 fizzie: I'd think this is a particular push service just for firefox itself, for bs like studies. 18:48:28 I see. 18:48:43 But it's a guess; I have not done any research on it. 18:48:43 Presumably also for pushing updates to their tracking blacklists and that sort of stuff. 18:49:04 https://wiki.mozilla.org/CloudServices is "delightedly whimsical". 18:49:41 "Tracking Protection" ... I almost laughed. 18:50:22 int-e: What do you think of this Coyoneda type? 18:50:34 Other than "a fairly odd functor". 18:51:08 shachaf: nothing 18:51:36 That makes sense. 18:52:01 I think it's a neat trick that comes up in multiple contexts, not just this Prompt monad. 18:52:43 I tend to think of that stuff very concretely, in terms of continuations. 18:53:51 (Obviously it's not a useful trick because it's just Haskell nonsense.) 18:54:16 (Or maybe it is useful? I'm skeptical.) 18:54:49 I also wrote "Codensity transformation" the other day but when I did it, I did a CPS transformation with several continuations. 18:57:38 Well, the Codensity transformation is the same as the CPS transformation. 18:57:51 I wasn't even conscious of the fact that (a -> r, b -> r) is isomorphic to Either a b -> r (ignoring bottoms) 18:58:07 shachaf: Yeah but the latter term makes sense! 18:59:03 It's meaningful, it can be decomposed into subconcepts. "Codensity" is just nonsense. 19:01:28 Unfortunately the nonsense has taken over the Haskell community. :P 19:08:05 -!- Lykaina has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:10:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:22:28 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:24:48 Lykania: I recommend https://virtuawin.sourceforge.io/ , a software that lets you use virtual desktops in windows and set up your favourite keyboard shortcuts 19:27:34 int-e: re browser and connections, https://twitter.com/jonathansampson/status/1166005813548396549 , also try the debian version, it does 20% less connections because debian patched it so that the favicons for the search websites in the search bar menu are installed with the browser rather than downloaded 19:30:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:33:25 fizzie: you were right, this is connected to the service worker push api. 19:33:59 b_jonas: I'm using the debian version already. 19:35:12 Oh well. Service workers are another thing that has no right of existing in the first place. 19:36:07 I guess you could set up your own personal push service and use that to alleviate the tracking concerns. 19:38:59 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 19:39:49 int-e: ok, then imagine that backwards. be glad you're not using the vanilla version, because that does 20% more connections. 19:44:17 the tweet I linked to measures the windows version 19:50:47 b_jonas: reading your thread. "[...] is a feature that allows Mozilla to change the default value of a preference for a targeted set of users [...]" is so ominous. 19:52:42 int-e: it's not my thread 19:54:22 ah. okay, then the thread you linked to (the Firefox subthread in particular.) 19:57:02 b_jonas: the funny thing about the quote is that its' from Mozilla themselves 19:57:18 Or maybe it's worrying rather than funny. Let's call it interesting. 19:57:51 int-e: that means sometimes they say things about what their browser is doing. what a weird concept for software 20:00:04 Ah. "Normandy manages recipes of changes to make to Firefox, including temporary studies, user surveys and controlled rollout of new features." 20:00:20 Clearly another thing to disable. 20:00:37 I miss Iceweasel. 20:00:56 (But maintaining the thing must've been a lot of work.) 20:00:58 [[Echidna]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66075&oldid=66055 * Lykaina * (-90) Updating documentation. 20:01:01 int-e: debian's firefox is iceweasel. it's the same thing, they just decided it's safe to use the firefox brand name 20:01:11 and they do disable some firefox features 20:01:23 Not enough, apparently. 20:01:35 yes, admittedly they do have a hard time keeping up with all the stuff that mozilla adds to firefox 20:01:50 it's not a sw that anyone enjoys to package 20:02:09 even making it compile is basically impossible 20:04:42 -!- Lykaina has joined. 20:05:27 Also, how many IDs does Firefox have for a single profile... 20:05:35 patched the If/While bug! 20:05:47 Lykaina: nice 20:06:01 Lykania: I recommend https://virtuawin.sourceforge.io/ , a software that lets you use virtual desktops in windows and set up your favourite keyboard shortcuts 20:06:18 thanks 20:08:15 Normandy has one. The push service has one. The activity stream of the default new tab page as one. Telemetry has its own id as well, it seems (and why is that even set when Debian disabled the telemetry feature?!). 20:08:22 I don't like what I see. 20:08:33 i rewarded myself by upping the version to 0.03a0 20:13:06 brb 20:20:54 b_jonas: the thing is, the *right* way to disable all these things is to rip out the code in question, which is a maintenance nightmare, and will upset users who have different ideas about usefulness. 20:21:19 (For example I'd rip out the Gollum feature ("pocket"), but I imagine some people find it useful.) 20:22:23 (This association is a bit unfair because the pocket in question was really Frodo's.) 20:22:26 int-e: like I said, the original codebase is already almost impossible to build. it may be harder to build than glibc, which is impressive. if they manage to successfully rip out the right pieces, it may become slightly less hard to build, so it may be less of a maintenance nightmare than you think. 20:23:04 int-e: isn't the pocket at the mozilla servers (frodo) and you the user of pocket are on your computer (gollum)? 20:23:12 but you want the thing in frodo's pocket? 20:23:18 well not you int-e, but the people who ise it 20:23:56 back 20:25:00 int-e: hmm, how about Han Solo then? https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/145117/ 20:25:17 wrong franchise, never cared much about it 20:32:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:36:00 yeah, Gollum is better 20:37:44 i need to know: what is my language missing? 20:39:42 it's something opvious, i'm just blanking out on it 20:40:34 Lykaina: nothing, I think it has all the operations you need. although I haven't checked the modified implementation yet. 20:42:27 really, it has arithmetic, flow control, interactive IO, and now array access too, that's enough for anything reasonable 20:42:48 the array access part is important, you can't really do without 20:43:19 if the interpreter works correctly, then it's a fine general purpose language 20:43:43 a low-level one that you want to compile to and use a generous library of useful functions, but still 20:46:22 how do i implement functions? 20:46:45