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00:00:55 <Lykaina> write in c, write in c, write in c, write in c, if you want it to make no sense, write in c
00:01:32 <Lykaina> i think that's how the song goes
00:03:16 <arseniiv> exitwhen from that article reminds me of algebraic effects: effect definition, a handler and its application to an effectful expression all bundled together. Or exceptions, but they already mention them and that’s not exotic enough
00:05:04 <arseniiv> though this exitwhen is weaker than exceptions (and moreso effects) and on the other hand is beautifully local, that’s a plus I think
00:07:37 <imode> https://hastebin.com/dicapuzube.makefile
00:08:47 <imode> exitwhen looks frickin' awesome.
00:13:08 <arseniiv> <imode> https://hastebin.com/dicapuzube.makefile => you made it readable! :o
00:13:59 <imode> the cool part is it's just trivial substitutions.
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02:49:04 <Lykaina> made an echidna program to output the ecact formula when, if piped into bc, gives the unix time
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02:51:38 <Lykaina> i'd output it using echidna, but it's 32-bit and echidna is 16-bit
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03:01:11 <Lykaina> how do i do base conversion math on two 16-bit numbers as though they were one 32-bit number?
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03:23:32 <adu> Lykaina: a*2^16 + b
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04:30:06 <imode2> https://hastebin.com/begaliyeju.py a half-functional SPL-to-C compiler. pretty trivial.
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05:26:30 <imode> brainfuck would be far more palettable if `[]` were substituted for `[?;]`. I imagine a command set of `[<>!?;]` would be turing-complete, with `!` acting as a bit-flip operator.
05:28:34 <imode> if equipped with a circular tape, the program [!?>] would write 1's to every memory cell.
05:29:01 <imode> make that [!?>]!, need to swap the last bit back.
05:31:05 <imode> with the use of a sentinel cell, you can reduce the instruction set to `[<>!?]`
05:33:26 <imode> sorry. `[` and `]` are `while(1){` and `}`, while `?` and `;` are `if(cells[current]==0){break;}` and `break;` respectively.
05:33:39 <imode> was going off of an earlier discussion.
05:34:06 <imode> been working on a language called SPL that uses those commands + a stack.
05:34:45 <imode> https://hastebin.com/begaliyeju.py wrote a half-arsed C compiler for a subset of it.
05:35:51 <imode> brainfuck's [ and ] require you to duplicate code in order to write a trivial while loop.
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06:33:34 <imode> wonder what a generic while loop would look like in FRACTRAN.
06:42:53 <imode> has anybody made a brainfuck interpreter in FRACTRAN? that would be impressive. I imagine the construction would involve building a tape using a single register.
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07:59:41 <rain2> there are some very advacned fractran coders
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08:42:44 <Taneb> Hard part would be program input and IO
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09:21:40 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66077&oldid=66068 * A * (+649) /* Multiplication (idea; probably will be combined with Vafix in order to make reading source files harder) */
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09:33:55 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66078&oldid=66077 * A * (+1543) /* Matrix transposals */
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09:34:36 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66079&oldid=66078 * A * (+73) /* The Dyadic part */
09:36:16 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66080&oldid=66079 * A * (+82)
09:38:08 <Lykaina> adu: that's only if the system can store 32-bit numbers
09:46:08 <Lykaina> i can concatenate thrm into a 32-bit, but that won't help with base conversion
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10:03:27 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66081 * CarlosLuna * (+80) Initial one-liner bio.
10:04:55 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66082&oldid=66081 * CarlosLuna * (-4)
10:06:01 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66083&oldid=66082 * CarlosLuna * (+9)
10:08:32 <esowiki> [[User:CarlosLuna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66084&oldid=66083 * CarlosLuna * (+45)
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11:16:51 <esowiki> [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66085&oldid=50795 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Storage spaces 1-3 */
11:21:07 <esowiki> [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66086&oldid=66085 * Unlimiter * (-6) /* And */
11:29:09 <esowiki> [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66087&oldid=66086 * Unlimiter * (-4) /* eloop */
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11:55:04 <fizzie> Lykaina: I don't know if there are any handy shortcuts for base conversion specifically, but you can always "just" implement 32-bit operations in terms of 16-bit ones based on the mentioned decomposition.
11:55:21 <fizzie> For example for 32x32->32 bit multiplication, x * y = (xh*2^16 + xl) * (yh*2^16 + yl) = (xh*yh)*2^32 + (xh*yl + yh*xl)*2^16 + xl*yl, and the *2^32 part doesn't matter, so you "only" need to compute 16x16->16-bit multiplications xh*yl and yh*xl, and one 16x16->32-bit multiplication xl*yl, and sum up the right parts of the results.
11:58:22 <fizzie> Division is much more disagreeable. Though with a constant divisor you could turn it into an (even wider) multiplication.
12:04:32 <fizzie> I know there's similar routines like this in, for example, SDCC; their 32-bit multiplication is at https://sourceforge.net/p/sdcc/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/sdcc/device/lib/_mullong.c (a pure C version, or actually two of them, at the bottom).
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13:20:56 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66088&oldid=66080 * A * (+22) /* Implementations */
13:22:08 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66089&oldid=66088 * A * (-358) /* Multiplication (idea; probably will be combined with Vafix in order to make reading source files harder) */ Making this simple as well as hard to understand
13:28:08 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66090&oldid=66089 * A * (+275)
13:29:08 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66091&oldid=66090 * A * (+9) Fix some typos
13:33:15 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66092&oldid=66091 * A * (+130) /* Computational class */
13:33:57 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66093&oldid=66092 * A * (-2265) /* Matrix transposals */ Nope, the core of Vafix is just 2 operators.
13:34:35 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66094&oldid=66093 * A * (+25) /* Implementations */
13:34:46 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66095&oldid=66094 * A * (+9) /* Implementations */
13:46:45 <cpressey> Not wholly esoteric, but I mentioned it on here weeks ago, finally got around to packaging it up: https://github.com/catseye/Cardboard-Prolog
13:51:04 <Lykaina> cpressey: omg you're catseye?
14:04:34 <cpressey> Curses! My entirely-non-secret identity has been revealed!
14:04:42 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66096&oldid=66095 * A * (+19) /* Calculates 7+(-5) */
14:11:34 <rain2> https://twitter.com/x86instructions/status/1171468931241934853
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14:20:11 <Lykaina> crap, i have to sacrifice another command
14:21:56 <Lykaina> https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
14:23:09 <Lykaina> i need a second op like 'S'
14:30:58 <Lykaina> probably move R to G and make the current G part of the new R as RD
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15:23:47 <arseniiv> I just heard about words like speako, writo, scanno, clicko, thinko. Just rofling now
15:24:26 <arseniiv> a neat model but funny nonetheless
15:26:54 <int-e> cpressey: maybe you've just been called old ;-)
15:29:07 <arseniiv> I heard about cpressey but not once about catseye (before I saw some github links cpressey himself posted weeks ago), what did I do wrong
15:31:49 <int-e> arseniiv: you've never encountered the now-dead link to Cat's Eye Technologies on http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/ :)
15:32:10 <int-e> (I believe that's where I first found it.)
15:32:28 <HackEso> boxmodel:boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be. \ hackego:HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico! \ match:Can a match box? No, but a tin can. \ paste:"Paste" is a short story by Henry James. Its contents have been cut in
15:37:31 <arseniiv> this Cardboard Prolog challenges me to write something in another language but I’m lazy. I even hadn’t finished that metavariable proof checker yet, I’m not happy with a hacky β-reduction rule which would allow me to finish that thing and I don’t want to think how could I manage without that, and anyway no one wants that engine at all so what’s the use
15:47:15 <arseniiv> int-e: ah. Yes maybe if I was more old and more appreciated INTERCAL…
15:48:49 <HackEso> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
15:49:24 <HackEso> branch-cut elimination? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:49:40 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
15:49:52 <arseniiv> ah I already knew that, it seems
15:49:59 <fungot> arseniiv: im coding enqueue to insert it into the kernel core, because well they are procedures no it's not.
15:50:28 <arseniiv> fungot are you in a self-contradictory mood today, huh?
15:50:29 <fungot> arseniiv: that sentence, either. :) difference is, dr. watson just sends an error report off to microsoft and objects, what would one gain from an idl separate from scheme code
15:51:42 <arseniiv> I certainly didn’t know IDL could be made into scheme code
15:52:54 <int-e> arseniiv: INTERCAL was the first or second esolang I've encountered (I don't know whether Brainfuck came first or second). So it made a lasting impression.
15:54:01 <int-e> But there were also far fewer esolangs around to pick from.
15:54:21 <int-e> And no esolangs.org :)
15:54:37 <Taneb> Fun fact: the first programming language I learnt was Piet
15:55:02 <Taneb> Which probably goes some way to explaining how I try and learn how a program works
15:55:14 <arseniiv> int-e: there was a time when I thought about conlangs and esolangs almost entirely on a basis of (Russian) Wikipedia pages on them, which were few (and still are; I don’t understand what criteria are there to include precisely that selection but it seems unchanged over the years)
15:55:33 <Taneb> (the first esolang I made, which I think might still exist as a word document on my parents' computer, is an extension to Ook)
15:56:25 <int-e> It's funny that DMM basically inhabits two extremes in the originality spectrum for esolangs :)
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15:57:05 <arseniiv> happily that wikipedia selection seemed to include FALSE, it gave me several ideas and that’s why each my concatenative language will have [...] lambda brackets
15:57:31 <arseniiv> I also saw them in some forth variation but don’t know which first
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15:58:53 <int-e> arseniiv: Oh technically I guess I learned about BlooP and FlooP before the other two, but I didn't consider them as esoteric languages.
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15:59:15 <int-e> arseniiv: The author of IWC. ;)
15:59:19 <Taneb> arseniiv: David Morgan-Mar, webcartoonist and esolang creator
15:59:48 <arseniiv> I want to write a book like GEB, and also unlike it, so it should be more practical, but nonetheless eclectic and varied and crazy but I don’t have a chapter plan still
16:00:22 <int-e> that sounds like a good place to start ;)
16:00:22 <arseniiv> Taneb: thanks! Didn’t heard about him before
16:00:59 <int-e> arseniiv: Tsk, you fell for it :)
16:01:05 <int-e> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
16:01:39 <arseniiv> why wouldn’t I fall for an unknown abbreviation, though
16:02:03 <int-e> arseniiv: I don't know, but it was all according to plan.
16:02:43 <int-e> alliteration and abbreviation addicts anonymous
16:02:54 <arseniiv> hm a chapter about steganograophy could be steganographed
16:03:20 <arseniiv> no no no it was a-something association against abusing abbreviations
16:03:21 <Taneb> What about stenography
16:03:41 <arseniiv> if I would write that book it may include a chapter on steganography
16:04:07 <arseniiv> then it’s only logical to steganographize something in there
16:04:15 <int-e> . o O ( People can't memorize computer industry acronyms. )
16:05:18 <int-e> ("PCMCIA", if you remember that. Of course it really stands for "PC Memory Card Industry Association".)
16:06:35 <arseniiv> alliterations help illiterate to alternate leaping hopefully and laterally
16:07:23 <arseniiv> didn’t know about PCMCIA, clever
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16:11:51 <arseniiv> ah it seems I’m familiar with many of DMM’s esolangs
16:16:53 <arseniiv> “Celestial Bureaucracy operates in the spiritual realm, unlike materialistic Western data structures.” => :D
16:18:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66097 * Areallycoolusername * (+230) Created page with "The interpreter is good, but can you add file support so the extension you have provided for Vafix is useful? ~~~~"
16:19:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66098&oldid=66097 * Areallycoolusername * (+97)
16:27:32 <arseniiv> hm I hoped there would be examples of Haifu code
16:27:54 <Taneb> iirc Haifu doesn't have a way of doing loops :(
16:38:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66099&oldid=66098 * Areallycoolusername * (+500)
16:39:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66100&oldid=66099 * Areallycoolusername * (+1)
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16:53:01 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66101&oldid=66043 * Dtuser1337 * (-1998) Blanking because it now in maintenance.
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20:03:19 <HackEso> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
20:05:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there's even a wiki page: https://esolangs.org/wiki/David_Morgan-Mar
20:06:07 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/DMM redirecys there
20:08:54 <b_jonas> four of his esolangs are famous: HQ9++ (version of HQ9+ that also has an object-oriented abstraction but very different from Intercal classes), Chef (thematic language where programs look like cooking recipes), Piet (programs are paletted images), and Ook! (brainfuck dialect for apes)
20:13:18 <Hooloovo0> huh, didn't realize that he was the same person behind the webcomics
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20:20:30 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, I went to that precise article today :D
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20:32:10 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2855868/terribly-meaninful-information/
20:32:12 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2855868/terribly-meaninful-information/: b_jonas
20:33:31 <esowiki> [[Fungot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66102&oldid=38954 * B jonas * (+21)
20:34:31 <Lykaina> http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a6.pdf
20:34:47 <b_jonas> hmm, we should probably have at least short articles about HackEso and lambdabot
20:34:53 <Lykaina> now, i will actually try an program in this
20:39:21 <Lykaina> b_jonas: what do you think echidna, as it is now, would be good for?
20:40:13 <b_jonas> Lykaina: I was busy today and tomorrow, so I didn't look at it
20:40:42 <Lykaina> linked the up-to-date compiled documentation
20:41:46 <Lykaina> wait, you were busy tomorrow?
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20:44:46 <Lykaina> can you look at the pdf, or are you too busy?
20:44:54 <b_jonas> it's too late in the evening
20:45:08 <b_jonas> normally I could but I'm tired
20:45:41 <b_jonas> I'll have to get up tomorrow
20:47:34 <Lykaina> anyone else wanna look at the pdf and see where the strengthes are?
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21:11:25 <Lykaina> i have to go lie down. brb. (i'm on a screen session)
21:16:05 <imode> is there any mathematical foundation to dataflow programming?
21:20:05 <imode> stuff like flow-based programming.
21:20:13 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming
21:29:55 <Lykaina> is mine dataflow programming?
21:30:08 <Lykaina> or are you referring to another?
21:30:36 <imode> was just wondering in general, not directed towards you or your language.
21:59:46 <Lykaina> though, to be fair, i used 4 "special ops" to do it
22:00:56 <Lykaina> like that i call the extended op set "special ops"?
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22:31:19 <imode> I wonder if I can replace my stack with a queue.
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22:47:38 <imode> several things are different. RPN no longer works as you'd think.
22:56:38 <imode> 1 2 3 4 + - * -> (1+2)*(3-4) for example.
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22:57:18 <imode> control flow would be interesting.
22:58:32 <imode> evaluating conditions would be uh... hard?
23:00:04 <imode> you'd have to make copius use of rolling the queue to seek to parameters.
23:05:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66103&oldid=66100 * A * (+10) Split into bullet points
23:07:04 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66104&oldid=66096 * A * (+2) /* Execution scheme */
23:07:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66105&oldid=66103 * A * (+166)
23:13:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66106&oldid=66105 * A * (+196)
23:18:43 <Lykaina> ugh...have to be able to do 32-bit arithmetic in echidna, or add to it until i can
23:20:25 <Lykaina> it uses unsigned 16-bit integers
23:21:53 <imode> why do you need 32 bit arithmetic.
23:22:15 <imode> you can still detect carry and borrows.
23:22:20 <imode> by virtue of wraparound.
23:22:51 <imode> given two numbers, a and b, if a + b < a || a + b < b, a carry occurred.
23:23:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66107&oldid=66106 * A * (+12)
23:23:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66108&oldid=66107 * A * (-14)
23:23:42 <Lykaina> imode: can you add parentheses?/
23:24:06 <imode> you can discard the latter part of that 'or' condition, so it's just `if(a + b < a){/*carry occurred*/}`
23:24:52 <Lykaina> how do you add a to ( b < a )?
23:25:05 <imode> huh? precedence, dude.
23:25:24 <Lykaina> i must be reallyy out of it
23:25:34 <imode> the sum of two numbers will always be greater than or equal to either number.
23:25:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66109&oldid=66108 * A * (+189)
23:25:46 <imode> provided those numbers are positive integers.
23:26:10 <imode> what's really going on behind the scenes is ((a + b) % INT_MAX) < a
23:29:26 <Lykaina> t @r =a =b p @r =a I0 t @s @s =1 -I0
23:30:16 <Lykaina> sorry, that's pseudo-echidna
23:32:04 <Lykaina> T @0003 =0000 =0001 P @0003 @0000 I0 T @0004 @0004 =0001 -I0
23:35:05 <Lykaina> in other words: r=a+b; if(r<a) s=s+1;
23:38:34 <Lykaina> http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a6.pdf
23:42:39 <Lykaina> still working on R and S, the Special Ops.\
23:47:30 <Lykaina> at the moment: R-ops all have 1 mem out and 2 value ins, where S-Ops have 2 mem outs and 1 value in
23:48:17 <Lykaina> i need to add another value to be supported by S
23:58:03 <arseniiv> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> hmm, we should probably have at least short articles about HackEso and lambdabot => seems reasonable!