< 1569543180 103218 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1569543407 828850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Cloud computing is like shitting in a glass house. ) < 1569543928 965088 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1569548367 916605 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm implementing Langton's Loops in Golly. < 1569548371 418875 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :This might be very pointless. < 1569548405 906180 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty exciting, because as I keep implementing new parts of the CA, the pattern fails in new, exciting ways. < 1569548437 823031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Langton's gelly ) < 1569548523 31098 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now, the organism successfully extends 6 times, but when it tries to turn, the arm potentiates and just stays potentiated. < 1569548537 788927 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :A potentiated arm, after extending, fails to generate more sheath. < 1569548565 813823 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :This causes... uh, I can't quite tell what's going on. < 1569548620 625905 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it results in the organism's wire retracting and vanishing. < 1569548633 926205 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :So essentially, when it tries to turn and then extend, it just bleeds out instead. < 1569548904 45184 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :F < 1569548910 311443 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't golly have langton's loops already. < 1569548916 108675 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it does. < 1569548928 711166 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want to create a modded version of LL. < 1569548936 10661 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat! < 1569548937 825712 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in order to create a modded version, I have to create the original. < 1569548953 933394 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :...or I could just use the existing implementation of the original. That would also work. < 1569548958 822915 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't really understand how the original works. < 1569548966 543856 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in order to understand it, I'm re-implementing it. < 1569548998 403874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :re-implementing the loop is the new re-inventing the wheel < 1569549063 421583 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally! Hot damn. < 1569549100 632319 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, now I'm at the point where the arm can extend and turn, thereby creating essentially all of the daughter loop. < 1569549168 645909 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that the arm then fails to penetrate itself; it turns into an open dead end instead. < 1569549197 428596 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the whole thing essentially bleeds out again. > 1569549937 966118 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:JR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66346 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+255) 10/* Categorizing to Category:brainfuck derivatives */ new section > 1569550089 48170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rebmu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66347&oldid=39284 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+55) 10wait, wrong category. < 1569550128 303650 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1569550779 596565 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, this is exciting! < 1569550795 743130 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the original organism can create a complete daughter organism. < 1569550800 722631 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the daughter is sterile and the mother dies. < 1569550871 245660 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sad story < 1569550936 532487 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow this reminds me of Sgeo's norn experiments < 1569550947 780563 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sgeo < 1569550948 662578 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments. < 1569551388 533395 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :norn? < 1569551593 890573 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569551595 739392 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norns are the species the player controls in the Creatures series of video games. < 1569551600 641546 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey HackEso, do you know what a norn is? < 1569551602 830879 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? norn < 1569551603 691434 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :norn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1569551831 615303 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boom, I've finished implementing the reproductive process! Sort of. < 1569551851 271441 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original organism is capable of creating a daughter, which creates another daughter, and so on ad infinitum. < 1569551855 477239 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the mother still dies after reproducing. < 1569551884 569212 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1569551907 478782 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you're not Quas. < 1569551908 198792 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think. < 1569551936 388849 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is there a user here who goes by quas? < 1569551941 993725 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelled with an s? < 1569552020 455703 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if they're here. Or if they were ever here, for that matter. < 1569552025 358034 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're known as Quas_NaArt. < 1569552062 130352 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how confusing. mind if we call you Bruce? < 1569552134 351696 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. ive always been distinctly Qaz, never used an s < 1569552161 811419 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i mean sure though i'd be curious as to why you chose that name in particular < 1569552268 72797 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's traditional < 1569552316 765119 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i see < 1569552325 18942 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bows in traditional* < 1569552346 692976 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxyzIC4hQvg < 1569552388 793144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1569552400 499986 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the link is only audio < 1569552428 11558 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the link is broken entirely for me < 1569552481 627202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :figures < 1569552500 47773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it's the monty python bruce sketch < 1569552517 439513 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i regret to admit im not familiar with it < 1569552566 526873 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boop, now both the mother and the daughter survive, but the mother is non-fertile. < 1569552895 307660 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here know if theres anything important i need to do if i intend to make a derivative of a particular language or do i just kinda do it and make a wiki page < 1569553082 885251 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569553125 656012 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1569553898 622861 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much just do it. < 1569553899 321852 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I'm still an admin on the esolang wiki. < 1569553914 89116 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I am, I'm pretty sure I don't remember my password. < 1569553946 24049 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do it! be bold! move fast and break things! you're the man now, dog! < 1569554298 201352 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :our every move is the new tradition < 1569554368 545803 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(y) < 1569554434 250881 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :++ < 1569554439 909679 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im wanting to expand on suzy and update it n stuff cus it seems really neat but could use revision < 1569555164 932236 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, I bought a book. The title is "Nauka czytania z historyjkami." < 1569555171 235934 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of hard to read because it's in Polish. < 1569555273 938153 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ppfff < 1569555317 674093 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you intending to learn polish with it ?? < 1569555873 751012 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already know some Polish; I'm gonna use this to improve my knowledge a bit. < 1569555907 395405 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, say, I finished. :D < 1569555919 289591 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Langton's Loops clone is fully working. < 1569555937 496447 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uapbynddkhsuhhtt PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, the LL rule is full of hacks. < 1569556146 655158 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1569556249 208022 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :conglaturation < 1569556791 885375 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1569557006 96600 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569558226 254526 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats tswett[m] < 1569558263 601440 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :gratz bud. < 1569558642 74730 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569558777 81120 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1569559135 494955 :inhahe!~inhahe@108-246-74-242.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT : < 1569559152 164485 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1569559177 408900 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569559602 96586 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1569559818 581484 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1569562150 792133 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1569562708 983252 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1569563576 983133 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569563616 986369 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569565032 618948 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1569565233 430829 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1569565254 367456 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5153:6e28:14b:610c JOIN :#esoteric > 1569568956 536259 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pie14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66348&oldid=66345 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+0) 10 < 1569569858 144787 :QazNotQuaz!42b9437f@66.185.67.127 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1569573168 722994 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07S.I.L.O.S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66349&oldid=53559 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10 < 1569573633 869930 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric > 1569577948 743405 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66350&oldid=66336 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+2) 10/* Cat Program (EOF returns 0) */ < 1569579932 872151 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1569582938 569209 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00e4fa5a8edc2c55f8.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1569583062 928559 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00e4fa5a8edc2c55f8.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1569583127 56326 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-334-110.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric > 1569583642 776372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66351&oldid=66350 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+57) 10/* Turing-Completeness */ < 1569584391 244608 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's... working, I guess. => ah I seem to have skipped that, not logreading yesterday < 1569587071 516354 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric < 1569587474 870457 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569588003 429694 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-334-110.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1569588363 14278 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00206e419100168dd6.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1569590079 390364 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would really like a moba style programming game < 1569591375 928687 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1569593258 164827 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569593426 895287 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569593532 400236 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569593561 343793 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1569593702 120790 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1569593796 948081 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gytaxmiattfbjkcf JOIN :#esoteric < 1569597160 12966 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:d162:f1b5:767f:74e9 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1569598349 894015 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1569599565 258874 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1569599697 973811 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a002d052d028cac83f5.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1569599855 849135 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine/ < 1569599893 983374 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00206e419100168dd6.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1569600633 533255 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you think, teaching what of these in schools is more useful: (i) expansion of (sin x)³ in terms of sin and cos or (ii) presentation of (a sin x + b cos x) as A cos(x + B)? I think the second on its own is way more useful but I can’t remember well if I was taught that one < 1569600661 558439 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in (i) I meant sin 3x < 1569600676 519969 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1569600757 112636 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think it’s a cosine that should be named sine, and vice versa < 1569600811 702904 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how at one point I was laughed for suggesting "readable, structured assembly language/opcodes", and now WASM exists. < 1569600816 207579 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck the haters. < 1569600834 233553 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes brainfuck's control flow not look terrible. < 1569601548 133197 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : makes brainfuck's control flow not look terrible. => I don’t follow how exactly (not that I thought it looks terrible either) < 1569601687 835140 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :to clarify, neither BF's nor WASM's control flow looks horrible. just that WASM follows BF's (and my language) conventions of structured control flow rather than arbitrary control flow. < 1569602001 678063 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would _have_ to interpret WASM by either doing the jump-to-matching-bracket routine, or some kind of compilation technique to resolve the jumps. < 1569602714 41243 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1569602735 100274 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1569602862 35028 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1569602929 904438 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1569602957 584282 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1569603038 259699 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1569603976 983394 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569603980 185663 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gytaxmiattfbjkcf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1569604370 277435 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1569604777 318580 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did you play Untitled Goose Game yet < 1569605079 128495 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a002d052d028cac83f5.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1569605124 672883 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes < 1569605170 821964 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode i was thinking the other day/night < 1569605180 624110 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about C, and about C-like languages... < 1569605205 196751 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think...I think "the work" required to make the abstractions, is forever required. < 1569605221 851083 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly is like working with little cogs and pulleys and things < 1569605236 952557 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why forth is not too useful either < 1569605260 343321 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is forth not useful? < 1569605262 952198 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you like it? < 1569605269 941997 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forth ." I'm useful!" < 1569605270 449193 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm useful! < 1569605277 752837 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode it is useful, but it's held back. < 1569605284 684628 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :by? < 1569605290 807785 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, when it comes to this type of talk...I'm bad with words. < 1569605301 129637 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : you would _have_ to interpret WASM by either doing the jump-to-matching-bracket routine, or some kind of compilation technique to resolve the jumps. => ah < 1569605317 889574 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s all good. < 1569605337 522820 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's held back by the fact it pushes in the wrong direction, that it extends *one aspect* of assembly < 1569605345 750193 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see now that using purely the stack is a mistake. < 1569605350 851256 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be effective, you have to use all the parts. < 1569605369 585075 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is why things like C are super useful. < 1569605371 218550 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it's p. cute < 1569605375 115531 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :define all the parts. < 1569605390 694615 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :registers, stack, memory < 1569605397 640009 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory/heap < 1569605400 274796 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1569605402 403763 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is charming < 1569605407 767632 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cheers me up when i'm feeling down < 1569605409 973571 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need registers, but you _do_ need memory. < 1569605414 539690 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :he who makes a goose of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man < 1569605423 817713 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I, for a practical language, think of it as a pretty normal thing. Why should a low-level language have unstructured control flow, not all low levels are that low so to be able to execute on a sufficiently simple hardware < 1569605428 956173 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You DO need registers imode. Otherwise your code is super ineffecient. < 1569605438 892079 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what way? < 1569605444 141685 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode, look, you can _easily_ add two 64-bit integers. < 1569605449 408140 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 1 instruction. < 1569605453 367521 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you give this up? < 1569605459 522805 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's simple, to the point, efficient. < 1569605467 62714 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this an argument against stack machines? because lmao. < 1569605467 729607 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it's particularly good as a game, though? < 1569605477 811592 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94 there will be multiple different programming languages < 1569605485 521028 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode I'm not sure what I'm arguing. I'm just saying what's on my mind. < 1569605507 12750 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think your issue is with stack machines, because you're thinking that multiple stack ops are slower than a single register op. < 1569605524 583950 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case... plenty of literature in favor of stack ops. < 1569605531 780885 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also in favor of register ops. < 1569605544 473070 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is < 1569605552 146417 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things are better than others in contexts. < 1569605554 867760 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: use both. < 1569605562 605927 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1569605566 605497 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, nothing stops you from using registers. < 1569605584 61951 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is nice because it handles using the stack and registers < 1569605591 196762 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really. < 1569605600 491868 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely depends on your calling conventions. < 1569605605 616165 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : I see now that using purely the stack is a mistake. => btw a typed concatenative stack language may abstain from using any runtime stacks and store intermediate values in registers: after typing, it’ll be clear what goes where and how long what lives < 1569605613 407613 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that too. < 1569605663 882839 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : he who makes a goose of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man => looks deep < 1569605694 983727 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is it a rephrasing of something, maybe I hadn’t heard the original, but anyway < 1569605699 30486 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very good < 1569605783 160435 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth isn't about the raw ops, by the by, lf94. < 1569605798 704723 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted to write assembly for a stack machine, by all means, do it. < 1569605802 647201 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it about simplicity, composition, etc+ < 1569605807 602516 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like forth but i cannot program in it < 1569605819 345148 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct. which is more about the structure of the REPL and the code. < 1569605822 732152 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the underlying machinery. < 1569605825 627725 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :people kinda get lost in that. < 1569605827 387429 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the original is s/goose/beast/ < 1569605838 218728 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sha256 code I linked the other day - that was in no way simple. < 1569605839 478240 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW I think now maybe I’m in part interested how much you could extend a concatenative syntax and still call it that, concatenative < 1569605839 895605 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is a samuel johnson quote https://www.samueljohnson.com/depressi.html < 1569605859 198330 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was in no way simple, you're right. would you say that the equivalent C is as simple? < 1569605859 527242 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could've been way simpler, had it been able to use non-stack ... mechanisms... < 1569605861 662049 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: ah. I thought it could be “fool” but beast has its merit < 1569605865 256113 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: which is also known as the epigraph of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas < 1569605865 670392 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: yes!! < 1569605872 43992 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :does an equivalent C version exist? < 1569605875 417275 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course! < 1569605880 383330 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sha256 is widely implemented < 1569605881 519816 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that specific piece of code. < 1569605890 971460 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1569605891 166588 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of my favorite quotes < 1569605895 873228 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean is there a _direct translation_ of the semantics of that Forth code to C. < 1569605896 250003 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it explains a lot of human behavior, really < 1569605897 604887 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can you find it. < 1569605915 875941 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :from excessive drinking to the thing where people dress up as puppies and play with each other < 1569605936 601763 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is somewhere on the border between super kinky and adorably wholesome) < 1569605951 288970 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think about forth as a compiler target? < 1569605954 838719 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: https://github.com/amosnier/sha-2/blob/master/sha-256.c < 1569605956 670658 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: no < 1569605970 696708 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: this code is about 130ish lines < 1569605979 870322 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the forth was 300 < 1569605988 525427 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you re-link the forth version? < 1569606000 265708 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for completeness. < 1569606009 237631 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/jzakiya/4544459 < 1569606025 367185 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm also I’m fixed on typing, but the thing imode said ^ too can be of course done by a simple “dummy interpretation” where we store in the stack register indices instead of actual values, it’s equivalent but it looks simpler than words about typechecking < 1569606033 495002 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines 1 through 83 are comments. < 1569606042 612794 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/said ^ too/said ^ at too < 1569606098 292251 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines 319 onward are part of the overall driver program that takes a file and hashes it. < 1569606105 824517 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1569606113 85367 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, but you're comparing a small portion of a program to an actual program. < 1569606122 223897 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so it's about 200 lines < 1569606131 529962 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: lines are not everything < 1569606132 986436 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :less, if you remove comments. < 1569606138 794449 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right. they aren't. < 1569606146 668207 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really depends how many instructions this all compiles to. < 1569606147 614060 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why did you bring it up. < 1569606168 449539 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I messed up. < 1569606170 963210 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1569606172 619083 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s all good. < 1569606191 457138 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I like some of the animations, like the smug way the goose carries things in its beak. < 1569606202 533021 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want someone to show me *GOOD* forth code < 1569606204 804463 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :also. < 1569606213 624867 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C code only deals with big endian. < 1569606217 358888 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Forth code deals with both. < 1569606225 467506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should be that smug about something. < 1569606244 504645 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the test harness for the C version is 238 lines. < 1569606258 543245 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1569606265 818928 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think it's weird that you can't eat things or fly < 1569606285 265173 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/12-forth-code-example/ < 1569606307 705109 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here you go. < 1569606335 884530 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's small, but it is neat. < 1569606372 765761 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes it boils down to that we in a sense live in stories and can at the same time synthesize them, and maybe to that in some sense our working mind is flat (that one is my pet allegory, and that’s opposed to being hierarchical) < 1569606392 645961 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact all of that book is full of good stuff, you should probably read it. < 1569606410 780553 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: hm < 1569606425 128770 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i know what you mean by the mind being flat < 1569606445 619157 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : I want someone to show me *GOOD* forth code => I want that with respect to postscript < 1569606487 772800 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://archive.org/details/ataribooks-forth-on-the-atari-learning-by-using < 1569606492 214265 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :linking this for the cover art < 1569606502 35042 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes it shows my metaphors are too convoluted :D that one never to this time helped anyone < 1569606509 306174 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus I forgot about that. < 1569606538 462813 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they really are keyboard warriors. < 1569606564 859779 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, lf94, if you're worried about performance, Forth has been driving space missions and critical systems for decades now. < 1569606581 324181 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with what interpreter / compiler? < 1569606594 898029 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a cover art indeed < 1569606609 14590 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.forth.com/resources/space-applications/ < 1569606610 451718 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here you are. < 1569606624 644365 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :most native hardware, some not. < 1569606650 91531 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was also a bit disappointed that nothing happens once you get the picnic supplies together < 1569606656 812920 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :bear in mind, Forth interpreters aren't really "interpreters" in the larger sense. they use threaded code, which isn't exactly equivalent to a traditional interpreter (one that simulates instruction fetching + decoding). < 1569606701 245926 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threaded_code < 1569606707 963277 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not multithreading, threaded. < 1569606710 354758 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1569606825 127056 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have doubts on anybody who can say Forth is not performant to be on par with C or better in some situations. < 1569606937 738945 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :though honestly the whole Forth ecosystem is arcane. there's little good documentation on how to implement a Forth from scratch apart from guessing. you have to link together some dots and do some research. < 1569606972 757367 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: oh, I forgot I didn’t elaborate about flatness. It should mean that in a sense all hierarchical things we manipulate do have a base in our long- or short-term memory, but the size of the working memory is too small for that. Hm, and with this formulation it becomes orthogonal to that thing about stories I said at the start < 1569606978 481889 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess that's a good thing, because people seem to jump to the "I've implemented Forth therefore I know Forth" conclusion. < 1569606997 792344 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: don't get caught in that. implement a language you'll actually enjoy writing in. < 1569607025 385223 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.sifflez.org/lectures/ASE/C3.pdf some slides if you ignore that advice. < 1569607039 380986 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I'm reading this classical forth link you sent still < 1569607044 960789 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I'm convinced... < 1569607054 865461 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can’t hold a sufficiently convincing model in the working memory only < 1569607059 791692 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I think the quote also explains the appeal of silly behavior generally < 1569607060 820257 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :: " ( -- addr ) [CHAR] " WORD DUP C@ 1+ ALLOT ; < 1569607069 669271 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is to insert a string into a dictionary.... < 1569607073 942686 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, we are conditioned so hard that everything must be according to a purpose, a plan < 1569607092 433612 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing something pointless for the hell of it (like esoprogramming) is liberating < 1569607094 360774 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct. do you understand what each of those words does? < 1569607095 532131 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pointlesser the better < 1569607101 807248 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what I love about ham radio in the Internet age < 1569607107 779670 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 90% pointless < 1569607115 488944 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are those who get it and those who don't < 1569607153 526766 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I don't, but it seems crazy... < 1569607165 941133 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :[CHAR] IMO has a misleading name. < 1569607175 307399 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :array of characters? < 1569607184 323867 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1569607207 538856 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :address? < 1569607238 386624 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Displaying-characters-and-strings.html two behaviors of that word. < 1569607294 399431 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, silly things are fun (it is fun things that are silly ) < 1569607301 517267 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lars.nocrew.org/forth2012/xchar/BracketCHAR.html probably a better reference, I don't like the formatting on that one. < 1569607485 701983 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much just consumes the next token it sees. < 1569607494 103955 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pushes it to the stack. < 1569607626 218036 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :low-level forth procedures scare me slightly < 1569607636 774003 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst part? it's all arcane. < 1569607650 272631 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you have to go to the ends of the damn earth to actually see the definitions/semantics of a particular word. < 1569607659 833000 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I mean, whatever. < 1569607695 741173 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forth-standard.org speak and ye shall receive, wow. < 1569607749 389797 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forth-standard.org/standard/core/BracketCHAR same stuff, though. < 1569608013 802792 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. no. < 1569608068 990654 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: this basically just parses a string and pushes the address of that string to the stack, which is picked up by MATERIAL to define a new word in the dictionary. < 1569608114 550664 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the corresponding material weight. < 1569608240 904484 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb. < 1569608371 762032 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00684a08c11a2f1daa.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1569608525 280793 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1569608913 461345 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( arcane programming languages ) < 1569608925 637081 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm are there also esoteric data description languages < 1569608995 83537 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or esoteric languages of logic. Err, no, these are esoteric almost by default < 1569609004 542331 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1810:130f:ae04:b6f5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1569609062 221588 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1569609122 811071 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, the shortcomings of Forth's words and dealing with linear data structures are why I'm choosing to use a queue/bidirectional tape vs. a stack. < 1569609179 916564 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Forth, storing a string means finding some memory, popping the string into memory and then grabbing the address of the first character and putting it on the stack. < 1569609216 909989 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas with my language, the whole string can be stored in the queue/on the tape. < 1569609236 522582 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5153:6e28:14b:610c QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1569609265 589128 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead of going through the motions to parse a string from the source and then pop it into memory, you can just call something like `parse`. < 1569609284 948393 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'll throw it into the queue, which can then be used by other words that deal with linear structures. < 1569609293 957869 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo this composes a lot better. < 1569609362 926170 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1569609392 703312 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lf94: while I think that Forth is a step in the right direction, I kind of agree with you that Forth as defined doesn't compose well and forces you to push some of the underlying machinery into your word choices. which, fine, it makes you think harder about how to do things, but it also gives the air of mysticism in some way. < 1569609416 606433 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see the ending syntax, but you look back and see the mess of machinery required to accomplish that syntax < 1569609460 850147 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditching restricted RPN (using only a stack) is the first step, tbh. < 1569609600 786822 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :an example of where a queue/tape beats a stack + memory: you can define labels, types, etc. in-line and seek to them. meaning I can say "push label X, roll, push label Y, roll" and now, any time I want to recall the values after each of those labels, all I have to do is seek to the labels, move forward by one element and duplicate it/shift it to the working area. < 1569609635 471939 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need for an external memory. < 1569609735 161625 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1569609894 881748 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think that Forth's focus on tokens rather than individual characters sets people up for odd syntax. < 1569610141 62285 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my view you should be able to run code that transforms the source on demand. any time an "immediate" macro is discovered, you're dropped into a mode where your source is your program snippet's input. < 1569610159 332247 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which Forth _does_, but the core words are weird. < 1569610727 143180 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1569610942 564204 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00a44117d57a0e94f8.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1569611135 992136 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00684a08c11a2f1daa.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1569611667 988858 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1569612085 329699 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1569612241 568291 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1569612681 388012 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: <(...) redirection is tg < 1569612705 573388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote eat.a.comment < 1569612705 833470 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :SamB_XP says: I once saw it eat a comment (:[{- Help! -}]) < 1569613115 392238 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::_: < 1569613131 169123 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'(:$$:$,#) <-- this macro could define something that looks ahead by one character in the source, calls a builtin # function that consumes a character from the source and outputs its numeric value. so 'H'e'l'l'o',' 'w'o'r'l'd,0 pushes the string "Hello, world" + a 0 to the queue. < 1569613169 83638 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk. < 1569613171 840667 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1569613367 327061 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1569614158 555379 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0054cd566a2b7c0e0c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1569614423 553250 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00a44117d57a0e94f8.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1569614746 977129 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bmjjhvzhyavchjas JOIN :#esoteric < 1569615480 792788 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I copied a file on a floppy disk today to transfer to another computer. I put the same file on each of two disks in order in case one is wrong, but then I tried, and both seem damaged. However, by just using "cat /dev/sdc > recover.1" I was able to recover the data, and it looks like the contents of the file is intact, at least. < 1569616052 782159 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know why? < 1569617054 610898 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found that 7-Zip is capable of recovering the file from one of the disks, even though the driver in Linux cannot. < 1569617399 305552 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1569618596 515207 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1569622474 162516 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0054cd566a2b7c0e0c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1569624798 277214 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1569625949 509588 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out what you can do using "prisms" as described in _Anxiety is the Dizziness of Freedom_. < 1569626004 551402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way a prism works is: When you activate a prism, it flashes a red light or a blue light. Then you can use it to communicate to a version of the prism in a universe where it flashed the other color. < 1569626232 619740 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1569626247 158078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use these to solve NP problems? < 1569626403 745890 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1569626540 330466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that isn't much information about it, such as, some of the details of it working < 1569626595 578539 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What part is unclear? < 1569626609 358411 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can you communicate < 1569626616 367584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of it isn't specified in the story but I can only think of one reasonable way to make it work. < 1569626633 726434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Octets -- in the case of the story, up to some fixed number. < 1569626635 701216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say 1GB. < 1569626645 450962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a chat interface or something. < 1569626668 807701 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this ted chiang? < 1569626675 893793 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1569627807 814062 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bmjjhvzhyavchjas QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity