00:00:37 <imode> my question is, without this mechanism (which has implications regarding the uniqueness of the generated binding), is it still turing complete?
00:02:45 <imode> I don't see how it could be. if I treat the tuple store as a set rather than a bag, there's no way to generate unique tuples without explicitly listing them all.
00:03:30 <imode> if I treat it as a bag, then I could probably construct some sort of counter.
00:17:38 <zzo38> I wrote this list of ideas for the game; to see if they like or dislike them or can make variants of it to make a more surprise to me. https://arin.ga/JfMezt What is your opinion of this, please? Do you have any further ideas please?
00:55:25 <Lykaina> i can't make any sense of the irc program i wrote 10+ years ago
00:55:28 <Lykaina> it's 8 bash shell scripts, uses 100% cpu...
00:56:50 <zzo38> You should write it to not use 100% CPU.
00:59:32 <zzo38> I use IRC program I wrote by myself. If I were writing it today though I probably would do some things differently, such as not using PHP (I didn't have anything better at that time).
01:00:42 <Lykaina> no idea how beetle (it's name) works.
01:04:09 <zzo38> Other than using 100% CPU, is it any good?
01:04:30 <Lykaina> i remember that it is, in a sense, multiple programs working as one.
01:04:31 <fizzie> I had an IRC thing (though I think it might've been an ircII script) that used 100% of CPU too, except it was on my ISP's shared shell server and got me shouted at.
01:05:14 <fizzie> It wasn't a particularly large ISP.
01:05:26 <fizzie> They got acquired at least three levels deep, eventually.
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01:06:56 <fizzie> Dystopia (the original ISP) got bought up by sci.fi, which merged with a bunch of others to join Saunalahti, which eventually ended up owned by Elisa.
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01:33:45 <shachaf> If you want to define busy-beaver-style numbers in a way people will easily agree on, what computation system should you use?
01:34:25 <shachaf> The classic one with Turing machines has questions like whether the tape is double-sided, whether blank is a separate symbol, whether you count number of steps or output size, etc.
01:34:53 <shachaf> What's a sequence that grows as quickly as BB but can be defined unambiguously in one sentence?
01:35:19 <shachaf> I was thinking maybe somthing about the solution to a Diophantine equation of some size, but then defining the size of an equation is slightly awkward.
01:35:34 <pikhq> Hmm, tricky. I think the most important property for such a computation system (beyond being TC, of course) is being simple to state unambiguously.
01:45:22 <kmc> can you define something analogous to busy beaver machines with lambda calculus or combinators?
01:46:12 <shachaf> You can count the number of reductions or something.
01:46:29 <shachaf> Or just produce a large number.
01:46:42 <pikhq> Yeah, I guess a SKI combinator busy beaver makes sense
01:46:43 <kmc> B(n) = the maximum number of reduction steps to normal form for a combinator string of size n
01:47:12 <oerjan> even those cases still require you to define the syntax to measure size.
01:47:55 <kmc> but it's just a tree where leaves are labeled S or K, right?
01:48:06 <kmc> a binary tree
01:50:52 <oerjan> still more one way to count that :P
01:51:15 <kmc> but it should fit in one sentence
01:51:21 <kmc> which was the original goal
01:51:33 <kmc> if you have to define S and K then it'd be a bit of a run-on sentence but whatever
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01:57:27 <oerjan> i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway.
01:58:53 <oerjan> it seems schlock isn't going to attempt communication at this time.
02:14:13 <HackEso> 9196:2016-10-08 <boil̈y> ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\xc5\x93rjan \ 9195:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9194:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant pou
02:14:27 <HackEso> 9194:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9195:2016-10-08 <oerjän> learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9196:2016-10-08 <boil̈y> ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\x
02:14:49 * oerjan cannot recall whether he actually thought of Obelix, as obvious as it is
02:15:04 * pikhq scratches her head
02:15:15 <kmc> shachaf: you could also use binary lambda calculus
02:15:26 <kmc> which was designed for roughly this purpose
02:16:04 <oerjan> pikhq: famous for also getting powers by falling into something hth
02:16:23 <kmc> what are cheesy powers
02:16:36 <pikhq> Oh, as in Asterix & Obelix. Derp
02:17:54 <kmc> `wisdom kmc
02:17:54 <HackEso> kmc//kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. She is her own grandpa.
02:17:58 <kmc> `wisdom pikhq
02:18:04 <kmc> `wisdom HackEso
02:18:07 <HackEso> hackeso//HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo.
02:18:08 <oerjan> kmc: as a casein point, imagine spiderman-like web made of sticky cheese
02:18:20 <pikhq> I see. Shame about my lack of wisdom.
02:18:41 <kmc> sometimes the wisest wisdom is none?
02:18:46 <oerjan> there's no pikhq wisdom?
02:19:12 <pikhq> I must have always been a fool
02:19:35 <oerjan> well then i can save work on correcting pronouns
02:19:52 <pikhq> I suppose that does make things easier.
02:20:53 <pikhq> Benefits of being an unquotable fool: pronouns become much more mutable state
02:21:03 <pikhq> Fewer side effects
02:22:23 <oerjan> . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. )
02:26:29 <oerjan> it's just extrapolation https://xkcd.com/605/
02:26:52 <pikhq> I suppose that tracks.
02:29:43 <pikhq> By extension, soon the entire world will be trans. We're taking over, muahahaha
02:29:48 <kmc> I'm arguing with a mycophobe on reddit :|
02:30:05 <pikhq> Someone who's afraid of _fungus_?
02:30:07 <kmc> someone who is irrationally fearful of mushrooms
02:30:12 <kmc> which would include most americans
02:30:28 <pikhq> But mushrooms are delicious.
02:30:37 <kmc> not "eating mushrooms can be dangerous and you have to know what you're doing" but "oh god anyone who tries to pick mushrooms is going to die no matter how careful they are"
02:30:49 <kmc> this person also seems to think the only reason to pick wild mushrooms is to save money
02:30:58 <kmc> oerjan: I used to think I'd be the last cis male left
02:31:25 <pikhq> kmc: So, tell me how that worked out? :)
02:32:43 <kmc> by the year 2050, all coding is done by trans lesbian catgirls, all of whom are dating each other
02:33:34 <pikhq> "Naruhodō" (I see), said in a catlike fashion
02:33:52 <pikhq> kmc: And then, the economy will finally become subservient to the gay agenda.
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02:34:23 <kmc> seems apropos https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71753317_680517102458398_924369166457110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnaI1aohRyAnMzmm-SsSpMKuebusN3Z9PHoa_cp9IRhvAhHuFh92CAjnr9S8lp-Dp1goWX-QZKulownlDCH54dW&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=f1303938ed1d6cfd9ed4361195396396&oe=5E29C3BA
02:35:03 <kmc> pikhq: *taps fingers together* eeeeeeexcellent
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03:49:59 <kmc> shachaf: do you know anything about meditation?
03:50:14 <kmc> what kinds to do, how to get started etc
03:51:30 <pikhq> Here I thought you were omniscient. What use are you anyways?
03:52:19 <shachaf> I know some people who are into it, at various levels of hippitude, and they tend to recommend it?
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04:38:23 <Hooloovo0> basically all I've done is go into a hypnagogic state while my brain is still awake, basically lay completely still for a long time
04:39:51 <Hooloovo0> eventually you should feel an, uh, weight, or numbness, leading down your extremities
04:42:33 <Hooloovo0> it's weird not having any (changing) sensory input at all...
04:55:42 <zzo38> How to control the set of characters that pushing control and a arrow key skips to in the location bar in Firefox? I want it to skip to only / & = # ?
05:00:01 <kmc> Hooloovo0: cool
05:00:08 <kmc> I'm going to try a sensory deprivation float tank probably next week
05:00:17 <kmc> and see what that's like
05:00:59 <kmc> sure thing
05:02:50 <Hooloovo0> I feel like a sensory deprivation tank would produce the same effects as I get, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I'm not (sensing/feeling/experiencing)
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05:21:28 <kmc> well, it'll be different for everyone anyway
05:21:33 <kmc> but I'm glad to share my experiences
05:21:52 <kmc> I have a longstanding interest in altered mental states.
05:22:20 <kmc> one semester in college I had 2 roommates so I built the space under my desk into a sensory isolation sleeping pod
05:22:23 <kmc> it was great
05:22:39 <kmc> I had a thick piece of wood and blackout curtains that I could slide against the open side
05:22:55 <kmc> I slept in there, would also watch tv on my laptop, or listen to music in the dark
05:23:19 <kmc> and i'm also into psychedelic drugs but you know that.
05:23:31 <kmc> zzo38: have you ever taken psychedelic drugs?
05:24:02 <kmc> I have tried to meditate a bit, but never made a habit of it; I am much better at forming habits now than I was the last time I tried, so maybe it will stick this time
05:24:12 <kmc> my therapist recommend going to some events at the SF Zen Center
05:24:34 <kmc> hynagogic states are interesting
05:24:42 <kmc> hypnagogic*
05:24:53 <kmc> as are dreams
05:25:02 <kmc> I have used galantamine a couple of times to enhance dreaming
05:25:56 <Hooloovo0> I have never had a real habit of meditating
05:26:31 <Hooloovo0> it's always been somethting I do once every 2 days - 2 months ish
05:27:16 <Hooloovo0> I did take a class on buddhism which I thought was really great
05:29:32 <Hooloovo0> the professor is a monk - he teaches at a monestary/university and I don't know what else to say
05:30:58 <kmc> another thing i do that is maybe a bit like meditation (or maybe even the opposite) is to listen to music intently in a way that crowds out 'verbal' thoughts
05:31:03 <kmc> it feels good
05:32:20 <kmc> at some point in my late teens I gained the ability to follow multiple voices in music in a deeper way than I could before -- in a way that actually feels like multithreaded attention
05:32:56 <kmc> this happened shortly after I first smoked pot, i don't know if that's related but plausibly
05:33:04 <Hooloovo0> I feel like "not thinking verbal thoughts" is a distinct state of consciousness different from a lot of others
05:34:47 <kmc> and the goal of many forms of meditation is to reach this state?
05:35:04 <Hooloovo0> it's what you get from listening while high af, and (chanting/dancing/etc) while arguably sober
05:37:24 <kmc> i think drugs usually *don't* help me get there
05:37:39 <kmc> because i am very analytical and keep trying to describe the drug experience in words (in my own head or to others)
05:38:31 <kmc> and even if that's not where my attention focuses, i get really analytical on psychedelics
05:38:35 <kmc> cannabis might be better for it
05:38:50 <kmc> but yeah I think listening to music intently (whether sober or not) is the best way I know to do it
05:39:00 <Hooloovo0> that makes sense... when I take drugs, I always think about how it's different from base reality
05:39:41 <Hooloovo0> I have not tried psychadelics, just weed, so there's that
05:40:07 <kmc> from this discussion I get the feeling that you would find psychedelics interesting :)
05:40:51 <Hooloovo0> I mean I'm sure theyd be interesting
05:41:26 <Hooloovo0> I'm not actually sure why I have qualms about taking them
05:43:01 <kmc> good to wait and do it right
05:43:12 <kmc> because the experience is determined mostly by set&setting and not by the drug itself
05:43:27 <kmc> stanislav grof called LSD a "nonspecific amplifier of mental processes" or something like that, and I think he's right
05:43:44 <kmc> I think of it as turning up the gain on all sorts of pattern matching systems
05:44:25 <kmc> so you start to see things that aren't there, but also things that are real and had eluded you previously
05:44:33 <kmc> not just in the literal sense of 'see' but also with respect to emotions and cognition
05:44:42 <kmc> but, it's hard to put it into words of course.
05:46:57 <Hooloovo0> yeah, see/experience/feel are different
05:47:20 <kmc> then on the more intense experiences the subject/object boundary itself becomes permeable, or dissolves entirely
05:47:58 <Hooloovo0> I'm not entirely sure I understand that sentence
05:48:14 <kmc> which is impossible to describe. anything you say about it is a contradiction because our way of talking is essentially predicated on that distinction
05:48:27 <kmc> a statement like "I experienced ego death" is obviously contradictory
05:48:52 <kmc> ego death is... a thing that happens
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05:48:57 <kmc> it doesn't happen *to* anyone
05:49:33 <kmc> I was essentially a panpsychist before I started taking psychedelics but it's one thing to believe something and another to experience it, you know?
05:49:45 <kmc> that there is only one thing, which is you and me and the universe and God and doesn't even need a name
05:49:56 <kmc> and all the boundaries are heuristics we impose on the world
05:50:19 <shachaf> When I was a v. small human I remember just naturally thinking that everyone was the same person.
05:50:31 <shachaf> And being surprised at the realization that maybe that's not true.
05:50:39 <shachaf> Of course it could be a fake memory like most of my earliest memories.
05:50:41 <kmc> did you include yourself in that?
05:50:49 <kmc> how do you know your early memories are fake?
05:51:27 <kmc> I don't have a lot of childhood memories. I'm told this is a thing that happens with dissociation
05:51:30 <kmc> but maybe I have enough
05:51:33 <shachaf> Some of them I can tell because they match stories that I've been told, but then when I ask about further details it turns out they're wrong (e.g. not in the place I thought).
05:52:16 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure what you mean by the me/universe/god statement
05:52:26 <shachaf> Others I think are fake due to other heuristics but I don't remember the details now.
05:52:28 <kmc> Hooloovo0: I'm only going to make a fool of myself if I try
05:52:31 <kmc> that's how these things go
05:52:52 <kmc> lexande frequently submits corrections to my autobiography
05:53:01 <kmc> I think his memory is better than mine overall
05:55:44 <Hooloovo0> before searching for it again I felt like https://principiadiscordia.com/book/57.php
05:55:52 <zzo38> When any player casts a spell, that player may choose a number which is a multiple of the converted mana cost of that spell, is less than or equal to forty, and has not yet been chosen for ~. If they do not, they lose five life.
05:57:18 <kmc> Hooloovo0: that is a nice page
05:57:28 <kmc> I was pretty into discordianism as a teenager
05:57:34 <kmc> I should probably go back and read the texts again
05:57:36 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: I read that before, and, I think it is good.
05:57:49 * Hooloovo0 reads logs: I know was re: (I'll make a fool of myself if I try)
05:58:01 <kmc> "Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered."
05:58:07 <kmc> this can be made mathematically precise in quantum mechanics
05:58:31 <Hooloovo0> that's one of the reasons I like it
05:58:34 <kmc> you have different basis sets for a hilbert space
05:58:48 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I suppose so. I have not considered that, but, yes, that makes sense.
05:58:49 <kmc> a state that looks entangled in one basis is separated in another
05:58:58 <kmc> and everything you do in the system is basically a change of basis?
05:59:20 <shachaf> Wait, does entanglement depend on your basis?
05:59:21 <zzo38> One book about philosophy that I had read some time ago, mentioned, quoting someone else, they expected you can write a serious book about philosophy consisting entirely of jokes. Now I can think that is correct, because that is what Principia Discordia is.
05:59:22 <kmc> quantum observation is choosing a basis and then projecting the system state onto it
05:59:25 <kmc> shachaf: maybe not
05:59:36 <shachaf> I thought that, like being a rank-1 matrix, separability was basis-independent.
05:59:55 <kmc> zzo38: that seems about right
06:00:33 <shachaf> whoa, I had a basic question about quantum things that maybe you know the answer to.
06:00:47 <kmc> you shouldn't expect me to be correct
06:00:55 <shachaf> I feel like all the quantum things I know, like entanglement, can be local.
06:00:57 <kmc> especially in my current state
06:01:03 <shachaf> But I don't know what locality means.
06:02:02 <zzo38> I have looked at the mathematics of quantum state vectors, and it does seem like some states might be entangled or unentangled from some point of view. But, it is confusing and apparently even scientists do not understand so well, so I have heard?
06:02:22 <Hooloovo0> zzo38, no, the PD is completely serious. there's no jokes in it
06:02:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I think the specific thing about whether a state is separable or not is just regular multilinear algebra that people do understand?
06:03:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably you are correct.
06:04:51 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: Are you sure there is no jokes in it? I thought it is completely serious despite it consists entirely of jokes.
06:05:08 <HackEso> 1/2:norway//Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec. \ k//K K K Ken \ brain//Brains are just receptacles for bricks. \ `hello//`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2
06:05:11 <HackEso> 2/2:letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline. \ te sting//This is horrible?
06:08:08 <Hooloovo0> zzo38, I'm pretty sure that's syi sydasti
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06:42:23 <HackEso> Today is Pungenday, the 59th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3185
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07:08:50 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/records_of_puzzles
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07:52:36 <shachaf> zzo38: I like the sentence "Do you like this?".
07:52:41 <shachaf> Is that what you were asking about?
07:54:34 <int-e> shachaf: I don't get it... it's neither fun nor a pun.
08:04:58 <ski> Hooloovo0 : hm, i've done that, some
08:05:24 <shachaf> Do you like non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs?
08:05:48 <shachaf> I'm kind of surprised there appear to be so many tradeoffs in ZKP options rather than one clearly best way to do it.
08:11:11 <int-e> . o O ( that often happens when you solve an impossible problem )
08:13:04 <Hooloovo0> I took a class from Andrew Miller on applied crypto
08:13:33 <shachaf> Can you transfer a full understanding of nzsnarks directly into my brain?
08:14:28 * Hooloovo0 goes to study the scribbled class notes
08:15:01 <int-e> . o O ( one should be able to teach those while having zero knowledge of the topic )
08:15:41 <ski> (Hooloovo0 : the laying still thing, i mean)
08:17:56 <Hooloovo0> I'm interested if it's similar to my own experience or if there's some qualitative differences
08:18:31 <ski> occasionally, my heart can sometimes start beating heavily, for no discernable reason
08:19:52 <ski> it can be hard to maintain a relaxed attention thing. not paying particular attention to breathing, to heart, to visual (non-)input, &c.
08:20:40 <ski> in some cases, i've layed, thinking about some mathy/logicy/programmingy problem, and after awhile noticed the sensory world has just faded away
08:21:33 <ski> some times, i've tried counting up (sometimes in hexadecimal) (at a sortof irregular pace), in order to keep mind busy, balancing at sleep's edge
08:23:40 <ski> occasionally, i've had these weird momentary visual impressions of some kind of scene (i'm pretty sure i didn't accidentally open my eyes), however, disappeared too quickly for me to get any bearings on what's in the scene. i've wondered whether that's a hypnagogic hallucination, but if it is, i suspect it's not the usual kind
08:24:35 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure there is a 'usual hypnagogic'
08:24:39 <ski> (relevant here is perhaps that i don't think i'm a visual thinker, i have a hard time visualizing anything at all. i think maybe i'm thinking "structurally" (in terms of connections ?), perhaps ?)
08:25:26 <esowiki> [[Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66462&oldid=50788 * A * (-34) Technically Prolog is a 3GL that describes how to achieve a specified result, so does Brachylog, which is inspired by Prolog.
08:25:52 <Hooloovo0> I am definitely a visual thinker, so I'm not sure what non-visual hypnagogicity would be like
08:26:10 <ski> one thing which i'm pondered if it maybe is, is related to WILDs, that i saw someone describe. they'd lay awake, and eventually they'd be "presented" with scenes, which if they "jumped into", they'd become dreams (lucid)
08:27:10 <Hooloovo0> I have only once or twice had lucid dreams... they were ok, I guess?
08:28:17 <ski> (occasionally, i've had a sensation (partly controllable) of "mind being curled up like a piece of paper in a roll, tighter and tighter". not quite sure how to express that)
08:28:23 <shachaf> ski: Did you read the book _Impro_?
08:28:30 <ski> yea, i don't think i've had them many times, either
08:28:37 <ski> shachaf : no, what's it about ?
08:28:51 <shachaf> All sorts of things. But it opens with a discussion of this, I think.
08:29:07 * ski is bad at remembering dreams. should perhaps try setting the alarm clock one hour earlier some time, again
08:29:35 <Hooloovo0> I feel like I've had a similar sensation... but I'm not sure
08:29:47 <Hooloovo0> I was probably not sober at the time
08:30:00 <shachaf> _Impro_ is such a good book.
08:30:40 * ski . o O ( <http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ob/notsnuffy/notsnuffy1.html>,<http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ld/nook/nook1.html>,<http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ld/ced/ced.html>,<http://www.hopkinsfan.net/ob/unlimited/unlimited1.html> )
08:32:15 <shachaf> ski: See the first chapter, _Note on Myself_, starting at page 14.
08:32:29 <ski> (some book i read described working at it "from both ends", trying to get more access to dreams, from an awake state of mind (iirc, some types of meditation), but also trying to get more access to waking thoughts, from a dreaming state of mind)
08:33:04 <ski> "Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre" by Keith Johnstone in 1979 ?
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08:35:50 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66463&oldid=66176 * A * (+1369) How do I execute a program?
08:36:29 <ski> (hm, some time ago, someone in another channel was talking a bit about their programming team being send to some improvised drama thing. this person liked it)
08:39:31 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66464&oldid=66463 * A * (+236)
08:40:22 <esowiki> [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66465&oldid=66464 * A * (+124)
08:50:24 <ski> hm, interesting. thank you
08:50:51 <ski> "I thought of a house, ..." -- i'm not sure i could do that
08:52:23 * ski . o O ( "Aphantasia: Seeing the world without a mind's eye" (TEDx) by Tamara Alireza in 2016 at <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arc1fdoMi2Y>,(questionarie) <https://www.docdroid.net/15ggf/vviq.docx>,"Vividness of Visual Imagery" <https://aphantasia.com/vviq/> )
08:53:14 <shachaf> whoa, this first chapter (20 pages) is so good.
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08:58:29 <shachaf> Also the rest of the book.
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11:47:17 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66466&oldid=66351 * A * (+86) /* Turing-Completeness */
11:49:17 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66467&oldid=66466 * TwilightSparkle * (+221)
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11:56:08 <esowiki> [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66468&oldid=66467 * A * (+205) /* Turing-Completeness */
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13:07:21 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66469&oldid=57563 * Saka * (+81) /* My Languages */
13:46:10 <esowiki> [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66470&oldid=65457 * Saka * (+76) /* I/O */
13:48:18 <esowiki> [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66471&oldid=66470 * Saka * (+6) /* I/O */
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15:49:40 <arseniiv> “Name of author by Title of book” has some funny scenes though generally it’s too crazy confusingly crazily confusing even for me
15:53:00 <arseniiv> like “I’m going to sell your company to me” one, — “What do you mean? I won’t sell!” — “That’s why I’m going to do it”
15:53:20 <LKoen> "CEO of the future"
15:53:25 <arseniiv> (and then something confusing happens just the next moment)
15:53:35 <LKoen> it's not that confusing
15:53:51 <LKoen> people sell things that don't belong to them all the time
15:54:58 <arseniiv> this, yes, I don’t disagree, ownership is a shady concept
15:55:30 <LKoen> "The international space station, filled with chess-playing Russians and Americans so atrophied they can never return home"
15:55:43 <LKoen> although were the fuck did the European astronauts go?
15:57:02 <arseniiv> anyway I it sat half-read for some time and I’m going to try to finish it maybe
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15:58:48 <LKoen> have you read "House of Leaves", by Mark Z. Danielewski?
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16:03:31 <LKoen> it's... interesting
16:03:35 <LKoen> I think it's pretty good
16:03:45 <LKoen> the format is a bit unusual
16:03:47 <LKoen> and the scenario is really, really unexpected
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16:17:22 <b_jonas> i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway. => yeah. some of them seem like they're just multiple sentences search-replaced to change sentence ending to semicolons.
16:17:45 <b_jonas> sometimes what I write on irc looks like that too. I should work on writing shorter sentences.
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16:30:00 <LKoen> Marce Proust wrote his books with looooong sentences
16:30:16 <LKoen> sometimes, by the point the sentence ends, I forgot what the beginning of the sentence was about
16:42:33 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> ... thinking that everyone was the same person." => as in http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html ?
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17:00:31 <imode> (5000) (fizzbuzz) takes 27 seconds. ugh.
17:01:16 <imode> I actually wonder why that is. the interpreter has crazy long pauses between steps.
17:04:02 <b_jonas> how long does 99 beers take?
17:07:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zull]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66472 * MiroslavRD * (+621) Created page with "Zull? More like NULL!!! --~~~~"
17:07:30 <imode> https://repl.it/repls/CompleteSpringgreenSpreadsheet
17:07:37 <imode> here's (100) (fizzbuzz).
17:07:40 <esowiki> [[Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66473&oldid=66462 * Salpynx * (+34) Declarative
17:07:42 <imode> it takes 2 seconds.
17:07:52 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aahY61e38ms Evoland - this is an interesting game, I first saw a run on a GDQ
17:08:38 <imode> 7.47ms to expand all the macros, ~2s to fully run FizzBuzz.
17:09:12 <imode> I saw long pauses between printing when executing it locally and with larger values.
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17:16:06 <esowiki> [[Zull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66474&oldid=63920 * MiroslavRD * (+112) Added more links, 2 sections, and i don't know what i also did
17:20:53 <b_jonas> `python3 -cfor n in range(1,101):print(("FizzBuzz","Buzz","Fizz",n)[(0<n%3)+2*(0<n%5)],end=" ")
17:20:54 <HackEso> 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz Fizz 22 23 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 28 29 FizzBuzz 31 32 Fizz 34 Buzz Fizz 37 38 Fizz Buzz 41 Fizz 43 44 FizzBuzz 46 47 Fizz 49 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 56 Fizz 58 59 FizzBuzz 61 62 Fizz 64 Buzz Fizz 67 68 Fizz Buzz 71 Fizz 73 74 FizzBuzz 76 77 Fizz 79 Buzz Fizz 82 83 Fizz Buzz 86 Fizz 88 89 FizzBuzz 91 92 Fizz 94 Buzz Fizz 97 98 Fizz Buzz
17:24:51 <esowiki> [[Sashleyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66475&oldid=66402 * MiroslavRD * (+154)
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18:32:25 <kspalaiologos> is there a binary lambda calculus tutorial somewhere around the web
18:32:33 <kspalaiologos> for someone who has barely ever programmed pure FP
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18:33:39 <kspalaiologos> something that will help me understanding the concept
18:33:56 <kspalaiologos> I've been looking for assemblers too, but it seems like I'm out of luck
18:37:00 <b_jonas> a tutorial is a writeup about burritos I think
18:37:03 <shachaf> My tutorial is as follows: 1. Learn regular lambda calculus. 2. Learn binary lambda calculus.
18:37:17 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: I recommend David Madore's old unlambda writeup
18:37:35 <b_jonas> www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
18:37:43 <b_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
18:37:51 <imode> what's the esolang that has the simplest possible implementation (not necessarily language).
18:38:05 <imode> I recall one being 6 instructions worth of- yeah something like that.
18:38:33 <b_jonas> imode: that's not a well-defined question, but Three-Star Programmer and Waterfall Model are candidates
18:38:58 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/MerseneTuringCompletness/blob/master/SeedProof.tex#L581
18:39:28 <b_jonas> also probably bytepusher, but I hate it
18:39:45 <b_jonas> it's one of my enemy esolangs, like brainfuck
18:40:07 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. )" => after you get rid of me, obviously
18:40:41 <b_jonas> pikhq: wait, so what gender are you now?
18:41:22 <imode> kspalaiologos: I don't know what this is.
18:41:27 <b_jonas> I don't think we'll run out of cis males, because we get replaced by more young cis males that grow up
18:41:55 <b_jonas> I'm more afraid of the scenario when trans people become the majority so the standards flip upside down, and we'll be the weird ones
18:41:56 <kspalaiologos> the rest of the document won't probably help you much xd
18:42:02 <b_jonas> but I think even that would be a win for us
18:43:53 <imode> bytepusher is a game console using bytebytejump?
18:44:29 <imode> . o O ( how fast does it run... )
18:44:35 <kspalaiologos> and binary lambda calculus is still something I'm too stupid for
18:44:56 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: why is that concerning? I made an assembler for an OISC too, to be able to use symbolic names that work even if I insert or delete words
18:45:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: I think, realistically, that is very far off
18:45:23 <kspalaiologos> b_jonas, well, bytebytejump is a hard thing to get right
18:45:27 <pikhq> We're only like 0.6% of the overall population
18:45:45 <imode> is BBJ turing complete due to lookup tables?
18:46:08 <imode> wait, BBJ can't be TC..
18:46:10 <b_jonas> pikhq: who are "we"? trans people, or trans females? and do you count infants into the population?
18:47:11 <imode> wtf is the "structured" equivalent of BBJ.
18:47:37 <imode> that I'm not surprised at, you need so many lookup tables.
18:48:02 <b_jonas> pikhq: is there a census on this? I'd like to know the ratio of trans males vs trans females, because it seems like I hear more of trans females somehow, which is weird
18:48:26 <imode> you can't really have a "structured" equivalent of BBJ, because there's.. no conditional machinery.
18:49:07 <pikhq> There's relatively few stats on it. I would suspect it's 50/50, and you're biased by the spaces you occupy, _buuut_ there's very limited actual studies.
18:49:28 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, I'm quite likely biased, which is why I'd like to know
18:50:16 <pikhq> https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf is one of the better demographic studies we've got
18:50:37 <kspalaiologos> I've experienced that there are more mtf than ftm honestly
18:52:48 <b_jonas> pikhq: that gives a split by age, which is useful, but not a split by genders
18:52:53 <pikhq> You're in tech. We're overrepresented because cis men are overrepresented.
18:54:51 <zzo38> I don't really know or care too much how many trans people it is, I think if that is what they want to do, OK; but, I think that it can confuse the language in some cases, and I also think that this "gender identity" shouldn't be needed. One suggestion I have seen is for "man" and "woman" to be social but for "male" and "female" to be biological; that helps a bit, I suppose.
18:55:17 <imode> y'know, I like that distinction.
18:55:25 <b_jonas> obviously I only know when people tell that they are trans, so for most trans people I probably don't know that they are trans because I don't care
18:56:05 <b_jonas> so the more trans female is just among people who write on the internet that they are trans female and I read it
18:56:25 <pikhq> zzo38: I think that's oversimplifying things intensely, and betrays an unfamiliarity with how this shit works
18:56:56 <pikhq> b_jonas: It appears the institute that did that study is now trying to do a better demographic survey now.
18:57:08 <pikhq> According to them, it will be the _first_ such demographic survey ever done.
18:57:14 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is simplifying it. You can have sex change too, so you can be a kind of hybrid, too. (You can also be born as a hybrid of male and female; it does happen.)
18:58:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Additionally, much of what we think of "biological sex" is, uh, purely hormonal.
18:58:26 <imode> you cannot take enough hormones to turn your penis into a vagina.
18:58:36 <imode> so no, it really isn't.
18:58:55 <pikhq> imode: Developmentally speaking, your penis was once a vagina, and then testosterone happened.
18:58:59 <zzo38> But, I think that even if a person is a "man" and not a "woman", if they are biologically female (or had the functions of such) at the time their child was born, then they are that child's mother. And if (hypothetically) someone can manage to change their biological sex enough from female to male later and have another child as the male function, then they can be one person's mother and another person's father.
18:59:20 <imode> pikhq: I'm pretty sure I'm a male because of my chromosomes.
18:59:23 <pikhq> zzo38: The mere act of "defining biologically female" is itself _much_ more difficult than you think.
18:59:38 <pikhq> imode: Orly? Have you actually had a karyotype done?
18:59:53 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_chromosome basic biology.
19:00:21 <imode> if you wanna argue gender identity, whatever. but biology is biology.
19:00:35 <pikhq> imode: Bio 102: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor
19:00:52 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know it is more complicated (I don't know all of the details, but I know it is more complicated than the simplified version I mentioned)
19:01:11 <pikhq> imode: TLDR: shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, you're just being an ass.
19:01:13 <imode> congratulations, that doesn't change your genetic makeup.
19:01:29 <imode> TL;DR stop discussing this in this channel.
19:01:34 <pikhq> imode: Unless you have actually had a genetic test, you don't even know what your genetic makeup is.
19:01:46 <pikhq> imode: Oh fuck off.
19:02:32 <pikhq> You're the one who's being offensive and self-righteous. That you are upsetting me intentionally in this way is _your_ fault.
19:02:43 <imode> have fun on ignore.
19:03:02 <pikhq> ops: Do we have a policy on offensive BS?
19:03:49 <j4cbo> “but chromosomes” is a pretty low quality argument tbh
19:04:08 <zzo38> Maybe much of it is purely hormonal, but there is also genetics, and perhaps other stuff, so, it is complicated. I don't know how it works though; I am not a biologist. But, I think that chromosomes are probably a part of it.
19:04:08 <b_jonas> sorry, I didn't wnat to start that
19:04:44 <pikhq> zzo38: They are -- ish. There's a gene that is commonly on the Y chromosome that triggers the production of certain hormones that triggers a large pile of other phenotypical changes.
19:04:51 <zzo38> (And, a X chromosome, is, normally, something that both male and female will have.)
19:04:54 <pikhq> It's actually _stunningly_ complicated.
19:05:09 <pikhq> And there's plenty of ways for it to go screwy.
19:05:11 <zzo38> OK, I believe you.
19:05:26 <zzo38> (even if I do not understand it completely)
19:05:37 <pikhq> For instance, the gene is only _usually_ on the Y chromosome. It moves over to the X sometimes. There's literally XX cis men walking around.
19:06:54 <zzo38> Yes, OK. I didn't know that, but, OK.
19:06:57 <j4cbo> biological sex is complicated but at least it is amenable to scientific inquiry
19:07:18 <pikhq> j4cbo: Gender identity is too -- people are real, even if they're fuzzy and harder to measure. :)
19:07:27 <imode> the concentration of mentally ill people on IRC never ceases to amaze me.
19:08:13 <j4cbo> pikhq: identity sure, but societal expectations and roles are impossibly complicated
19:08:28 <zzo38> (It seems to me that such thing as "XX cis men" might be a kind of hybrid, since "XX" is supposed to designate female, but in this case they are otherwise male; but, I don't really know what the proper definitions are, so I may be wrong.)
19:08:43 <pikhq> So's physics. I hear physics is a well-established field.
19:09:02 <pikhq> zzo38: The sex-determining region Y is more-or-less the only functional content of the Y chromosome.
19:09:18 <j4cbo> physics is measurable in ways that culture is not
19:09:38 <pikhq> Which is why sociology is hard.
19:10:12 <pikhq> But it's real, so you can _do_ science on it. Just... hopelessly difficult, so expect to spend all your time on establishing basic results.
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19:12:03 * pikhq is beginning to see why some other former regulars abandoned this channel
19:14:36 <j4cbo> Freenode’s “ops should not wear hats” thing is unhelpful imo
19:15:24 <pikhq> j4cbo: Yeah, it makes it difficult to decide who to escalate a conflict over what is appropriate discussion in a channel to.
19:16:12 <imode> if you mean take particular sides in a discussion, no, they really shouldn't. discussions and disagreements happen all the time.
19:16:20 <j4cbo> imode: “ops should not have +o except when actively using it”
19:16:39 <pikhq> Is imode an op? Please say no
19:16:44 <j4cbo> which leads to a... unmoderated atmosphere
19:17:20 <imode> I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I guess it's more relaxed in some places but I've never had a problem knowing who the ops are.
19:17:22 <pikhq> "An op's conduct is incompatible with what I think is appropriate for this channel" is not a pleasant discussion to have.
19:17:33 <b_jonas> j4cbo: our channel operators are fizzie, oerjan and ais523. same as the wiki moderators. you can tell that from NICKSERV ACCESS #esoteric LIST. the hats don't matter.
19:17:50 <imode> welcome to #esoteric, where the languages are weird and the hats don't matter.
19:18:24 <b_jonas> but I think this is the sort of discussion that you can just walk away from, it doesn't need ops
19:19:26 <pikhq> b_jonas: I am inclined to disagree. It's pretty... Incompatible with me being welcome here at all.
19:19:30 <imode> is pikhq trying to get me banned or something for disagreeing with them. if so, that's amazing.
19:19:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnimaLibera * New user account
19:20:09 <zzo38> I think that you can temporarily ignore the IRC if you do not like it and later you can discuss something else on this IRC. Since, we discuss other stuff on this IRC, too.
19:20:09 <b_jonas> pikhq: I mean, it's a discussion that will die down in a few hours if you ignore it, and it isn't interwoven with some other important discussion that you can't miss at the same time
19:20:14 <j4cbo> imode: i think your comments have gone substantially beyond “disagreeing”
19:20:38 <j4cbo> the “mentally ill” remarks
19:20:43 <imode> not related to this channel.
19:20:57 <zzo38> Even if you do want to ignore some discussion when reading the logs, if they are a discussion by different people, you could use grep, perhaps
19:20:59 <imode> not even related to this server.
19:21:12 <pikhq> b_jonas: Yeah, calling me "mentally ill" is straight-up insulting me for who I am.
19:21:24 <j4cbo> imode: it did not read that way
19:21:30 <imode> sorry you parsed it that way.
19:21:45 <imode> should have probably qualified. the discussion ended for me on "have fun on ignore."
19:21:59 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, I do realize. so ignore the whole discussion. unlike on a high-traffic channel where you have to separate threads, you can easily skip over them.
19:22:23 <pikhq> b_jonas: This is about as inappropriate as calling someone a "f****t"
19:22:30 <imode> maybe everybody needs to just step away from their computers and take a walk.
19:22:48 <j4cbo> “stop discussing this in this channel” is also not your call to make
19:23:06 <imode> that I'll accept. was an opinion and shouldn't have come across as an order.
19:23:15 <j4cbo> imode: so maybe the only one who needs to step away is... you?
19:23:24 <imode> pretty comfortable where I am, actually.
19:23:27 <pikhq> Maybe I should join every other trans person who's ever been in this channel and leave. (there have been several)
19:23:47 <b_jonas> no, all of you should step away. I wasn't specific about who.
19:24:43 <j4cbo> anyway I’m out for now
19:24:51 <b_jonas> and return a few hours later, but after a random amount of time so you don't return all at the same time (which is a proven working strategy on all our ethernet and wifi networks), by which time we'll forget about this
19:25:00 <b_jonas> but I'm sorry again for starting this
19:32:50 * pikhq will run off to scream into a pillow for a few hours
19:38:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66476&oldid=66459 * AnimaLibera * (+229)
19:40:03 <esowiki> [[User:AnimaLibera]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+33) Created page with " Comming soon (before October 30)"
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19:45:06 <HackEso> Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union.
19:45:09 <HackEso> Star Wars was a missile defence system invented by Ronald Reagan. With it, he managed to destroy the Soviet Union, then rode into the sunset.
19:45:11 <HackEso> In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while.
19:45:21 <HackEso> The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office.
19:45:23 <HackEso> The Nightstars are an unscientific myth of a sky covered in faint flickering lights. Only hermits and superstitious farmers believe this.
19:45:43 <HackEso> A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP.
19:46:32 <b_jonas> ah yes, one of those was created by me
19:51:38 <HackEso> 303) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
20:01:05 * pikhq didn't even realize initially -- imode misgendered her, too
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20:24:58 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i '21,$d' share/8ballreplies # let's remove those two extra replies
20:25:00 <HackEso> share/8ballreplies//It is certain. \ It is decidedly so. \ Without a doubt. \ Yes definitely. \ You may rely on it. \ As I see it, yes. \ Most likely. \ Outlook good. \ Yes. \ Signs point to yes. \ Reply hazy try again. \ Ask again later. \ Better not tell you now. \ Cannot predict now. \ Concentrate and ask again. \ Don't count on it. \ My reply is no. \ My sources say no. \ Outlook not so good. \ Very doubtful.
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20:33:46 <arseniiv> binary lambda calculus each time reminisces me about Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon Shear Disaster Download, as they are almost isomorphic but the second one is way more human-readable
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20:44:34 <HackEso> 441) <NihilistDandy> Having only been Catholic in the sense of being baptized that way, I still really like all their silly arcana <NihilistDandy> Judaism has them beat, of course <NihilistDandy> I almost converted just so I could look at my roommate's books
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21:13:50 <kmc> i'm wearing pants
21:13:55 <kmc> i should probably do something about that
21:14:59 * kmc reads scrollback
21:15:05 <kmc> i'm not sure why people are so hung up on chromosomes
21:15:12 <kmc> they are a starting block, a set of blueprints
21:15:27 <kmc> so much of human phenotype is determined by other things
21:15:34 <kmc> b_jonas: the american one
21:15:39 <b_jonas> I wear pants for work all the time
21:16:12 <kmc> en_US("pants") = en_UK("trousers")
21:16:18 <kmc> en_US("underwear") = en_UK("pants")
21:16:18 <b_jonas> sometimes long jeans, sometimes short jeans
21:16:26 <kmc> this is one of many fun things I've learned from watching British TV
21:16:35 <b_jonas> I specifically asked them about dress code
21:16:55 <b_jonas> they basically said that since I'm a software guy, I can wear whatever I want
21:16:56 <kmc> the best one is probably that "fanny" is a very mild term for butt in the US whereas in the UK it means vulva
21:17:07 <kmc> so I bet they are amused by "fanny packs"
21:17:18 <b_jonas> hardware guys sometimes need protective equipment when installing stuff on site
21:17:31 <kmc> b_jonas: i heard a story that Google in its earlier years once had "pajama day" at work, and the posters said "wear what you wear to bed!"
21:17:35 <kmc> so a lot of people showed up naked.
21:17:37 <pikhq> kmc: I think it's because some people get caught up on this idea that everything has to be easy, clear-cut, and simple to classify‚ and rather than change this notion when confronted with claims to the contrary they just rage when someone observes something that conflicts with the model.
21:17:43 <kmc> after that, no pajama day
21:17:45 <kmc> pikhq: yep
21:17:54 <b_jonas> kmc: that sounds like a hoax
21:17:59 <kmc> pikhq: and gender *seems* very simple if you don't personally have to deal with any of the corner cases
21:18:20 <kmc> i certainly didn't appreciate how complicated it is until about 5 years ago
21:18:32 <kmc> b_jonas: maybe. I heard it from a friend who works with a HR person who used to be HR at Google
21:18:40 <kmc> it's probably exaggerated at least
21:18:59 <pikhq> Knowing Google, I practically guarantee at least _one_ person actually did that.
21:19:09 <fizzie> Our team had an (optional) "formal Friday" a handful of times.
21:19:11 <pikhq> It probably wasn't widespread though.
21:19:24 <pikhq> fizzie: I advise you read scrollback
21:19:31 <b_jonas> pikhq: no, I mean they wouldn't make the mistake of advertising it as "wear what you wear to bed" without disclaimers
21:20:31 <imode> the question is, what were the consequences of showing up naked, apart from a probable escort from the campus.
21:20:40 <kmc> imode: they got free Google swag to wear for the day.
21:20:47 <kmc> the idea of working somewhere with a dress code is much less horrifying now that I can wear girl clothes
21:20:52 <kmc> girl clothes are so much more interesting
21:20:53 <imode> that's incentivizing nudity.
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21:23:06 <imode> honestly from the stories I've heard about people's first few months (and last) at positions in Google, I wouldn't be surprised that someone took that a little far.
21:23:50 <imode> had a friend of a friend who worked at FB. they got into a probation program the first week for not showing up, and then coasted the next 5 months until they were fired, but secured an offer one month prior to firing.
21:23:53 <imode> and did the same damn thing.
21:26:21 <b_jonas> at one point during university, I attended some lectures in SZTAKI. its building has the dress code of long pants required.
21:26:53 <imode> is it dog friendly, and does the dress code apply to animals.
21:27:06 <b_jonas> I don't know, I've never seen dogs in there
21:28:21 <b_jonas> also at my previous job we had some special events where the interns, after a quarter year long internship, give a short presentation about what they did at the company. that event required formal clothes. they forgot to tell me before the first time they held that event. I never went to the rest of them after that.
21:28:47 <imode> formal dress is stupid.
21:29:28 <b_jonas> I don't think formal dress is stupid, but requiring it for that event is stupid
21:30:36 <arseniiv> requiring the commonly used formal dress for many events is stupid, I’d specify
21:31:05 <imode> yeah, there's only a certain set of events imo that it's appropriate for.
21:31:15 <imode> and even then that's probably just cultural conditioning.
21:31:28 <b_jonas> or a wedding where you're an offical
21:31:50 <imode> remind me to mandate crocs at my wedding.
21:32:26 <arseniiv> we had that at school rrr (not university, *that* would be the worst and I’d not go there at all, then)
21:33:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: crocs mandated at school?
21:33:50 <b_jonas> or is "rrr" some kind of event, like a prom?
21:34:14 <arseniiv> so atm I don’t have any suits, formal pants and white shirts etc., though the tie remains in the closed
21:34:52 <b_jonas> I consider that much worse
21:35:00 <b_jonas> a uniform, as opposed to just ordinary formal clothes
21:35:09 <b_jonas> because you can choose the formal clothes to whatever you like
21:35:20 <b_jonas> but for a uniform, you have much fewer choice
21:35:48 <b_jonas> I do have formal clothes, but I haven't worn them since a friend's wedding in I think 2014
21:36:39 <b_jonas> this is the advantage of being a software guy with no people skills who thus never meets clients
21:37:36 <kmc> imode: are you getting married?
21:37:37 <b_jonas> actually I haven't worn it since my brother's wedding in 2013
21:37:42 <b_jonas> the other wedding was in 2012
21:37:46 <imode> kmc: next year, yeah.
21:38:19 <kmc> congratulations
21:38:25 <kmc> I got married once, 10/10 highly recommend
21:38:35 <b_jonas> so you're talking about an actual wedding, not just hypothetically
21:38:44 <b_jonas> will the wedding be outside? because crocs could be inconvenient
21:39:13 <imode> lmao, I'm waiting on the results from a job interview before we bother planning. it's been 10 years, so we figured we'd tie the knot.
21:41:06 <imode> it'll probably be a small thing along the coast. our families suck, sans our immediate family.
21:41:18 <b_jonas> will people dance in crocs?
21:41:26 <imode> if I have my way, yes.
21:41:52 <arseniiv> kmc: 10/10 highly recommend => lol
21:42:27 <kmc> we didn't do a full blown wedding, though
21:42:38 <kmc> got married under the dome at sf city hall
21:42:41 <kmc> one witness
21:42:49 <kmc> was kind of a spur of the moment thing
21:42:50 <imode> that's the way to go. my sister did that.
21:43:34 <arseniiv> I don’t understand weddings with a crowd of people too
21:44:06 <kmc> we were already promised to each other for life but didn't feel the need to make it official until 2015 when some personal shit went down
21:44:39 <kmc> the most immediate reason was that she wanted to be legally allowed to make decisions for me if I ended up in the hospital again
21:45:03 <kmc> so getting officially married was a practical thing, but has turned out to be more emotionally significant than either of us expected
21:45:16 <kmc> we had already been living together for 4 years
21:46:06 <kmc> the weddings with big parties are fun, at least if you're not the one organizing and paying for it
21:46:14 <kmc> i was maid of honor at my best friend's destination wedding in mexico
21:46:16 <kmc> it was a blast
21:46:51 <fizzie> Read some of the scrollback. TBH, the "mentally ill" part is really hard to accept as unrelated to the preceding conversation, given the timing and context. I think it's also a comment we wouldn't mind classifying as unacceptable, so please don't do that sort of thing.
21:46:54 <imode> that sounds awesome. and yeah, a lot of people get married for that reason and that reason only. that's a large motivation for us as well: we'll probably have an "official ceremony" and then have the actual wedding after it, mainly for insurance purposes.
21:48:28 <imode> fizzie: if you parse it that way, sure, I won't say that. bear in mind it was about something on QuakeNet.
21:49:07 <b_jonas> imode: is the crocs thing because you or your partner have a family member who you really want to keep away from the wedding, but you don't dare to just refuse to invite them, so you make a rule that they'll never comply with, and rather not attend the wedding than wear crocs for it?
21:49:22 <b_jonas> or is it to just keep most people away in general, to make the wedding smaller, without any specific target?
21:49:34 <imode> more of a parody of what one considers formal attire.
21:49:36 <pikhq> fizzie: After saying "them" to refer to me after my pronouns were made very clear, I think it is pretty unambiguous what imode's intent was. Particularly in context.
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21:53:14 <b_jonas> the latest xkcd uses "AM". that's weird
21:53:41 <imode> especially considering launches are 24h.
21:54:19 <b_jonas> after https://www.xkcd.com/1179/ that is
22:03:11 <arseniiv> (BTW in any case anybody wouldn’t like what personal pronoun I’d use please tell me explicitly, by PM or not, as I would likely been just forgotten or hadn’t watched with attention; so there be no feelings hurt)
22:03:49 <pikhq> arseniiv: Innocent mistakes are perfectly fine, FWIW
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22:12:55 * kmc is she/her as well
22:13:43 <kmc> imode: yeah, my friends did the official, legal wedding in SF with a small group of friends and then the bigger wedding in mexico for extended friends and family, the following year
22:13:59 <kmc> for one I think maybe it's tricky to get a US marriage certificate if you're married in a foreign country
22:14:46 <kmc> some channels have a bot that lets you set/query pronouns, which is kind of nice
22:15:00 <b_jonas> why is it tricky to get a marriage certificate?
22:15:09 <kmc> cause the wedding happened in a foreign country?
22:15:12 <kmc> i'm not sure though
22:15:14 <kmc> just speculating
22:15:51 <kmc> in california anybody can officiate a wedding after filling out a form. so the first wedding in SF was done by our friend, wearing a pope costume he got off of Amazon
22:16:22 <kmc> afterwards we grilled steaks and drank to the wee hours
22:16:40 <imode> that sounds blissful.
22:16:44 <pikhq> In Colorado the parties to a marriage are the only required signatures.
22:16:44 <kmc> it was great
22:17:20 <kmc> my wife and I are thinking about doing a wedding-style celebration maybe next year, for our 5th anniversary
22:17:30 <kmc> though it happens to be right around my grandma's 100th birthday so we don't want to upstage her
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22:17:42 <imode> make it a combo! :P
22:18:09 <kmc> in california the marriage form doesn't ask for gender (now that same-sex marriage is legal) but there is a box for each partner (only two partners allowed, sadly) to optionally check "husband" or "wife"
22:18:18 <kmc> as far as I know those checkboxes have no official meaning
22:18:34 <b_jonas> only one partner can check?
22:18:38 <kmc> and they're just on there to satisfy traditionalists
22:18:42 <kmc> no, each partner can check either
22:18:44 <pikhq> I'd have to doublecheck, but I think CO just completely removed them from the form
22:19:24 <kmc> part of me thinks poly marriage should be legal but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely
22:19:41 <kmc> most of the rights of marriage can also be established through contract law
22:20:08 <kmc> the privilege of not having to testify against your spouse can't, but it's also pretty weak from what I understand
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22:20:19 <arseniiv> kmc: but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely => me exactly
22:20:22 <zzo38> I should think having "husband" and "wife" on the form would be unnecessary, although maybe it would be helpful if you have a formal ceremony, I don't know
22:20:40 <zzo38> I think that poly marriage should be legal if everyone involved is in agreement with it.
22:20:50 <arseniiv> for example what if I trust a close friend but have no soulmate and suddenly fall ill
22:21:16 <arseniiv> I mean, this should be signed as easily
22:21:23 <kmc> zzo38: I think you'd also need forms for adding or removing partners from a poly marriage
22:21:43 <kmc> eventually a marriage may outlive all of the founders!
22:22:00 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if it is something which you will want to be recognized by government, then it will be needed.
22:22:07 <arseniiv> so it should be a separate procedure, applicable likely to any trusted people: relatives, friends, neighboors
22:22:20 <kmc> poly divorce law sounds like a quite complicated area that will probably exist one day
22:22:24 <kmc> arseniiv: you can do that
22:22:29 <kmc> power of attorney or something
22:22:57 <b_jonas> attorneys have superpowers?
22:23:01 <arseniiv> kmc: yeah it seems less easy as wedding :D so it should be refactored out
22:23:05 <zzo38> That is mainly the reason I was thinking it is too difficult to implement legal poly marriage right away, due to the difficulty with the existing laws. But, it should be corrected, if possible.
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22:25:38 <kmc> I know someone who was preparing to sue for recognition of poly civil partnership under the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal
22:25:50 <kmc> she had lawyers ready to do it pro bono and everything
22:25:59 <zzo38> The form might need a section to mark if you automatically consent in future too, in case you have one or more other spouses already and you do not want to deal with it when further spouses are added, everyone else who doesn't automatically consent in future (at least one is required, but by default it is everyone who must agree to it) to add a further spouse.
22:25:59 <kmc> but then she broke up with her partners :/
22:26:24 <pikhq> kmc: I think most of the regulars here knew her at one point :P
22:26:31 <kmc> pikhq: yeah.
22:27:12 <kmc> zzo38: I would think all partners should explicitly consent when somebody is added
22:27:38 <kmc> but that's based on my personal conception of poly marriage and not necessarily something that should be legally enshrined
22:27:45 <pikhq> Yeah. Legal bonds with non-consenting individuals is a bit fucky
22:27:50 <fizzie> It sounds like what this needs is a blockchain and smart contracts hth
22:28:21 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think so too, but sometimes someone might not want to deal with it if they are unable to. So, not dealing with it should only be if you agree ahead of time that someone else can agree for you ahead of time, or if you are dead.
22:28:24 <kmc> I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed
22:28:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: and cloud technology too
22:28:43 <arseniiv> hm are there schemes for a shared secret that allow expanding the set of participants?
22:28:57 <zzo38> But normally, yes, all current partners (and also the new one) should explicitly consent when somebody is added.
22:29:01 <kmc> in other words a corporation where each member has the same rights
22:29:40 <kmc> arseniiv: good question
22:29:44 <kmc> perhaps ##crypto knows
22:29:54 <zzo38> If you use secret sharing crypotography, and the number of members needed to decrypt does not change, then it is easy to add additional members, I think.
22:30:16 <kmc> zzo38: probably
22:30:21 <kmc> you would pick additional points on the same polynomial
22:30:48 <arseniiv> <kmc> I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed => and symmetrically too? It would get weird if not, or that state wouldn’t be achievable starting with trans. sym. closed marriages?
22:31:00 <b_jonas> who would compute the information without revealing the secret?
22:31:06 <kmc> afaik a k-of-n shamir share is n points from a (k+1)-dimensional polynomial, over an appropriate field
22:31:08 <b_jonas> without learning the secret that is
22:31:23 <kmc> b_jonas: any quorum could do it
22:31:44 <kmc> if you have a quorum then you can solve for the polynomial
22:31:50 <kmc> I don't know how you pick which points to share.
22:32:04 <kmc> random, I guess.
22:32:13 <arseniiv> (damn, f.lux has gone red and I don’t see text cursor again. A bug in calculating opposite color, I think)
22:34:21 <zzo38> One kind of secret sharing could be you have a secret point, and each member has an equation for a line that passes through that point. The secret point can be found by any two members. Also it means any two members can add a third by making up a new equation of a line passing through that point. If you are careful then it should be unlikely to match someone else's line.
22:36:05 <arseniiv> zzo38: ah, maybe that’s how Shamir scheme was invented? First, hyperplanes, and then a bit or generalization and bam
22:38:12 <arseniiv> hyperplanes grassmannians plücker coordinates
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22:41:39 <b_jonas> kmc: don't you mean a degree k-1 polynomial, on a field with at least n elements?
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22:41:56 <kmc> I think the field should have lots of elements?
22:42:03 <b_jonas> David Madore's crowning achievement on the IOCCC is relevant of course
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22:42:47 <kmc> for starters, the secret itself is a field element
22:44:04 <b_jonas> kmc: no, you can split the secret to multiple chunks, each a field element
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22:44:39 <b_jonas> in particular, David Madore's program uses a 256 element field, and the comments claim that that works for up to 255 parties
22:44:46 <kmc> b_jonas: ok
22:45:56 <kmc> https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/24983/choosing-finite-field-size-in-shamirs-secret-sharing-scheme
22:46:26 <kmc> I dunnoooo
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22:48:07 <b_jonas> I'd trust that that scheme works, both because it comes from David Madore with docs, and because it's won an IOCCC
22:50:23 <b_jonas> `perl -esub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r
22:51:22 <b_jonas> this is an old one from https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 that evaluates a polynomial over GF(128), before that IOCCC entry has won, but a decade after David wrote that program
22:51:30 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
22:52:42 <b_jonas> admittedly GF(128) makes it a bit simpler than GF(256) would be
22:52:47 <b_jonas> so it can only encode ASCII characters
22:55:00 <imode> am I crazy, or does "cp/m" as an address resolve to "cp.com/m"
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22:55:59 <zzo38> I think it doesn't
22:56:00 <b_jonas> imode: browsers have an option to automatically add ".com" if the domain name doesn't exist otherwise
22:56:20 <b_jonas> only when you type into the address bar, not in a link
22:56:39 <imode> it's only for two characters. o_O
22:56:46 <imode> "foo/bar" doesn't work.
22:56:56 <imode> but "fo/bar" does.
22:57:19 <b_jonas> they can also automatically prepend www. and prepend http://
22:57:21 <zzo38> What I prefer is something typed into the address bar is just treated as a relative URL to the current URL, unless it has a colon at first in which case it is a search command
22:57:47 <imode> that I understand. what I don't understand is why it only apparently works with two letters.
22:58:04 <zzo38> Some browsers will automatically prepend the scheme based on what the domain name is. (Still, I think it ought not to automatically prepend any scheme.)
22:58:27 <imode> nevermind, it somehow works with _multiple_ character strings.
22:58:33 <imode> abc/def works, for example.
22:59:27 <imode> it won't do "google/" though
23:18:25 <b_jonas> is it weird that "rose" is used as a color name, when roses are popular flowers that come in all colors you can imagine, sort of like diamonds?
23:19:11 <b_jonas> I mean, "orange" as a color name makes sense
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