00:57:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:29:29 -!- uplime has changed nick to Scrooge.
03:05:37 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood).
03:05:54 -!- sftp has joined.
03:49:53 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:51:35 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
03:53:08 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:53:08 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
03:53:41 -!- APic has joined.
04:13:32 -!- A55 has joined.
04:14:17 <A55> fungot: Who created the 'or' language?
04:14:18 <fungot> A55: at one point.) i'll try to look at these proofs you'll see that the number of buckets you use to read pdfs which preview/ acroread can't deal with the case that sys-readdir always have "."
04:14:59 <A55> fungot:Fnordy morning to you
04:15:00 <fungot> A55: i guess we should take haskell and give it a crack. i love it.) you should get some headphones chosen, sound maybe will be fnord. they're comfortable, and they refused to sense any opportunity for the opposite party since that might have something other fun esolang competition
04:15:36 <A55> Weird. I can't get fungot to answer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Or related questions.
04:15:36 <fungot> A55: fortunately the doctors at the university of copenhagen ( datalogisk institutut k?benhavns universitet) server box with a null
04:16:05 <A55> fungot:I know the language.
04:16:28 <A55> fungot:Shall I correct you?
04:16:45 -!- A55 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:17:06 -!- A55 has joined.
04:17:37 <A55> fungot: Shall I correct you?
04:18:18 <A55> fungot: Shall I teach you?
04:18:46 -!- A55 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:20:50 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:21:51 -!- b_jonas has joined.
04:51:02 -!- tromp has joined.
04:56:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
05:23:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
05:50:31 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
06:32:14 -!- atslash has joined.
06:41:45 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
07:03:18 -!- xkapastel has joined.
07:05:59 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/
07:06:01 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/: b_jonas
07:29:04 -!- b_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:41:38 -!- tromp has joined.
07:42:58 -!- tromp_ has joined.
07:45:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:57:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
08:12:24 -!- atslash has joined.
08:21:59 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
08:23:30 -!- izabera has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1).
08:30:55 -!- wib_jonas has joined.
08:42:55 -!- atslash has joined.
09:42:49 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
10:52:48 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:10:27 <fizzie> What's that all about.
11:11:56 <fizzie> Looks like it's about the internet at home.
11:12:44 <fizzie> My ISP has a "dashboard", but it's literally just a rounded rectangle on the account management page which says "Your Service status is: (orb)", where the orb is either red or green. Right now it's red.
11:13:53 <fizzie> Well, okay, there's also a hover tooltip box saying "we're sorry for the disruption" and "our engineers are currently investigating the cause and will work to restore connectivity as soon as possible".
11:14:16 <wib_jonas> fizzie: is it a dashboard that you can view from other internet connections, or only from yours?
11:14:23 <int-e> so a bit like the "Inside Out" baby stage... just minus the button?
11:14:58 <fizzie> I've never seen the tooltip say anything else, and it always says that within seconds of the connection going down, so I don't think it actually means anything in particular except that their monitoring has realized it's down.
11:15:27 <fizzie> wib_jonas: I can view it from anywhere by logging in to the same wobsite where you manage billing and that sort of stuff.
11:15:37 <int-e> It's vitally important to reduce the number of calls for customer support.
11:18:11 <wib_jonas> fizzie: in that case they probably also have access to the same dashboard, and by just you loading it, their server tells their engineers that your connection is down
11:19:14 <fizzie> It's on the page you get immediately after logging in, so I don't think they can quite infer it's down just from me opening that page.
11:19:39 <fizzie> Although realistically that'd have about 98% accuracy in practice.
11:20:44 <fizzie> My previous ISP had a read-only view into what looked like their actual issue tracker, which was nice. Although it was mostly just copies of BT's outages, because it was a DSL thing over BT's network.
11:36:22 <wib_jonas> fizzie: not from just opening the page, obviously. but their server knows whether the page tells you it's up or down
11:38:51 <int-e> wib_jonas: you mean loading the page might act as a thumbs up on the corresponding ticket?
11:40:03 <wib_jonas> int-e: loading the page tells them that someone cares about the internet being down on that connection. many of their users won't care, because they're sleeping or something. they might prioritize customers who look at the dashboard.
11:40:46 <int-e> I guess it's possible.
11:41:29 <myname> "you have services running at home but aren't there and awake 24/7? too bad"
11:42:00 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66687&oldid=57199 * B jonas * (+90) Rosetta Code
11:42:21 <wib_jonas> myname: obviously the priority only matters when they can't fix all their bugs :-)
11:51:43 -!- DPS2004 has joined.
11:59:12 <esowiki> [[Fibonacci sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66688&oldid=18125 * B jonas * (+164) Rosetta Code
12:00:13 <esowiki> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66689&oldid=50490 * B jonas * (+72) Rosetta Code
12:01:31 <esowiki> [[Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66690&oldid=60899 * B jonas * (+60) Rosetta Code
12:12:07 -!- arseniiv has joined.
12:38:38 -!- DPS2004 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:58:17 -!- cpressey has joined.
13:01:27 <cpressey> While researching various things related to "equational logic" I have discovered that there is also "inequational logic". But not many people use this term. I suspect this is because inequational logic has a much better-known name, which is "term rewriting".
13:01:57 <cpressey> At least, I am at a loss to see any essential difference between inequational logic and term rewriting.
13:05:10 <wib_jonas> argh... this thing at work is terribly inconsistent. I'll have to fix it by redoing the whole thing, for which I have to figure out what the correct settings is
13:06:40 <int-e> cpressey: hmm, in principle an inequational logic could go further (it could distinguish between covariant, contravariant, and ambiguous arguments of functions, for example)
13:07:52 <int-e> (I'm just interepreting the term as I'd read it... I have never encountered it in the term rewriting context. Term rewriting people use things like (weakly) monotone algebras that orient rules, in termination proofs for example.)
13:13:02 <cpressey> int-e: Say you had a term rewriting system, and you wanted to describe its semantics as a set of axioms. You'd have ones like "If a rewites to b, then (ca) rewrites to (cb)", and "If a rewrites to b, and b rewrites to c, then a rewrites to c"... these are the same axioms that get listed when describing an inequational logic.
13:13:40 <cpressey> There might be small differences between the two concepts, sure.
13:17:28 <int-e> cpressey: I'm just saying that given the term "inequaltional logic" you could do more. If a >= b then f(a) >= f(b) but g(b) >= g(a).
13:17:40 <int-e> cpressey: so you could have monotonic and antimonotonic functions.
13:18:15 <int-e> cpressey: But it appears that this isn't done and then it's indeed just another name for term rewriting.
13:25:25 <cpressey> int-e: I think I follow what you're saying -- you can start with an inequational logic, then add axioms that allow it to say more than you could say with a TRS, yet don't interfere with its purpose as an inequational logic?
13:26:47 <cpressey> I'd agree with that but I think I'm not thinking quite that far ahead yet :)
13:28:48 <int-e> cpressey: the downside would be that context matters... you couldn't replace any subterm by a smaller one anymore.
13:29:04 <int-e> So it'd be heading in a different direction from rewriting.
13:29:36 <int-e> Anyway. This happens when I encounter a new term... I first try to fill it with content myself.
13:29:58 <int-e> I'm wrong 80% of the time :P
13:31:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:32:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
13:34:00 <cpressey> Well, I'm fairly excited about it from the meta-logical angle. You can use term rewriting to derive proofs of theorems under some theory, and in inequational logic you have a theory of term rewriting.
13:34:54 <cpressey> In short it seems to confirm my feeling that a non-deterministic term rewriting language is sufficient for writing machine-checkable proofs in.
13:37:59 <int-e> isn't that somewhat true for all models of computation :)
13:39:31 <arseniiv> I’m disappointed in what was going on in https://ai.stackexchange.com/questions/15730/can-digital-computers-understand-infinity
13:39:31 <arseniiv> many noted layman’s “understand” is an ambiguous non-notion but a few if at all noted the same about layman’s “infinity”. When talking about a specific “infinity” instance, things should get way clearer. There would be no denying some commenters are antropocentric, or should I say psyche-centric, at its worst
13:39:51 <arseniiv> very very disappointed. Say you agree with me please
13:40:11 <arseniiv> or even better don’t read that thing at all, it’s not that good
13:43:21 <cpressey> "We can think, principally, and "understand" infinitely many numbers that are displayed on the screen." must be a pretty big screen
13:44:33 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:44:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
13:48:28 <fizzie> Hey, it's *not* always the same placeholder text. Now it says: "We're sorry to advise that we're experiencing a technical issue which has resulted in a temporary loss of broadband services to your building." I guess that's a good sign.
13:49:01 <HackEso> [U+1F64C PERSON RAISING BOTH HANDS IN CELEBRATION] [U+1F608 SMILING FACE WITH HORNS] [U+1F430 RABBIT FACE]
13:49:41 <arseniiv> all those prevalent chinese rooms in there too. I’d say popular understanding of a human mental capability is illusional and mostly based on accounts of introspection, not normal science, and what would chinese argumentists say if their chinese room would argue that it has introspection and it introspected that it e. g. understands and it’s unfair to deny that, and any human they meet is indistinguishable from that, so how do they c
13:49:41 <arseniiv> hoose to believe or not? Antropocentrically </rant>
13:51:21 <int-e> "understanding" seems to be a deeply anthropomorphic concept to me.
13:52:12 <int-e> maybe "can computers learn to solve problems involving infinity"?
13:52:47 <int-e> Still vague, but at least it's moving closer to something testable.
13:52:55 <int-e> (didn't read the stackexchange link)
13:53:48 <arseniiv> int-e: not that it isn’t, that had been tried to be clarified in various ways, but I’m at a loss to understand why wasn’t that done for “infinity”, as it is a topic of the question
13:54:40 <arseniiv> there was a link to some SO question about formalizing infinity, and I bet there were all kinds of infinities math has to offer, but I don’t think many commenters followed through with reading that
13:54:42 <int-e> arseniiv: You're not wrong!
13:55:29 <arseniiv> as I tend to be wrong while heated
13:55:31 <int-e> But I'd also focus on "undertanding" first. :)
13:58:04 <arseniiv> on a tangent, I’m slightly sad about antropocenteredness, cause it seems to be a reason of many bitter misunderstandings, as humans are modeled being more infailible that they are
13:59:23 <arseniiv> it’s constructive to try to understand flaws in our hardware but it’s almost not being done, not even basics at schools (I presume, worldwide), not some other stuff in social media etc.
13:59:57 <arseniiv> okay many know about logical fallacies but that’s not too many and that’s not enough I think
14:01:29 <arseniiv> by “not being done”, I mean not trying to discover them, that’s of course almost at its best now, as neurosciences go forward very fast, but trying to make general public aware
14:01:33 <int-e> I think there's a difference between anthropocentric thinking (I'm fine with that, really... we are humans after all and spend a lot of time with ourselves and other people) and ascribing super-Turing powers to humans :P
14:02:32 <int-e> The latter is a sort of mystification that I don't approve of.
14:03:14 <arseniiv> as many of the flaws are quite good at not being noticed because of our filling-in gaps, another bittersweet architecture choice of evolution
14:03:40 <arseniiv> int-e: some antropocentrism is normal, I agree, but it seems there is a line somewhere
14:03:58 <arseniiv> maybe in what is explicit and what is implicit
14:04:41 <arseniiv> if one is aware that she thinks antropocentrically, and why it needs to be so, it’s okay
14:05:20 <arseniiv> but in the most part that’s all implicit, deep waters of unconscious patterns or something
14:05:36 <arseniiv> and the power of rationalizing that into some nonsense
14:08:43 <arseniiv> BTW that Oleg’s paper was interesting
14:09:11 <int-e> rationalization is the ultimate AI problem
14:09:44 <arseniiv> I can’t say I fully understand (eek) it but it seems nice (and maybe even useful to me in the future?)
14:11:16 <arseniiv> “The Reduceron reconfigured and re-evaluated” had shown me some useful things too if I’d wish to design a virtual machine for something near-functional
14:12:15 <arseniiv> now there’s only one left, about writing in Haskell enumeration of a regex’s language through FSAs
14:15:20 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
14:22:11 <wib_jonas> fizzie: they added randomness to the placeholder text? nice.
14:33:55 <fizzie> Hm, I wonder if you can have OpenSSH require two public keys instead of just one.
14:37:03 -!- DPS2004 has joined.
14:37:21 <DPS2004> do you think its possible to write a quine in NeverGonna?
14:39:45 -!- DPS2004 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:44:57 <wib_jonas> fizzie: two public keys? what do you mean?
14:45:49 <wib_jonas> fizzie: do you mean require that the user who logs in has the matching private key for _one_ of two public keys, because if so, you can do that, just put multiple keys (one per line) in the file that contains the public keys
14:48:01 <fizzie> No, I was thinking the user who logs in would need to have matching private keys for two different public keys.
14:48:23 <fizzie> I think that's unlikely to be a thing.
14:49:17 <wib_jonas> is there even such a thing in the SSL protocol that a client supports? how do I tell the client config to use two keys?
14:49:31 <fizzie> I think you can provide multiple identities, yes.
14:49:47 <fizzie> Definitely a SSH agent can hold multiple keys in memory, and will offer to use all of them when signing.
14:50:05 <fizzie> But it might be that the details of the protocol prevent you from actually performing authentication with more than one.
14:50:43 <wib_jonas> I don't know how that works, I've always just put one explicit filename for each host in my client config file
14:50:52 <wib_jonas> one explicit private key filename that is
14:51:00 <wib_jonas> but possibly different filenames for different hosts
14:51:20 <fizzie> I know you can (nowadays) configure OpenSSH to require multiple authentication *methods* (as in, "public key and password" e.g.), but that probably doesn't apply to multiple keys.
14:52:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: multiple methods as in allow connections only from certain hosts but still ask for a key, sure
14:53:15 <wib_jonas> public key and password is alternative, you can log in via either one
14:53:30 <fizzie> No, you can require both.
14:53:38 <fizzie> Via the "AuthenticationMethods" option.
14:53:54 <fizzie> "For example, "publickey,password publickey,keyboard-interactive" would require the user to complete public key authentication, followed by or more comma-separated lists of authentication method names, or by the single string any to indicate the default behaviour of accepting any single authentication method."
14:54:07 <fizzie> I didn't know this earlier either, only learned about it now.
14:54:25 <fizzie> I messed up that copy-paste.
14:54:37 <fizzie> "For example, "publickey,password publickey,keyboard-interactive" would require the user to complete public key authentication, followed by either password or keyboard interactive authentication."
14:54:41 <fizzie> Lost track on which line I was on.
14:55:52 <fizzie> The context for this train of thought is, Android has a "secure hardware" thingamajick for keeping RSA and EC keys in, and asking the hardware to sign them. There's an SSH agent implementation that hooks that and allows secure hardware keys to be used as SSH keys -- https://github.com/aeolwyr/tergent -- but there's no way to attach a passphrase to that, the keys get unlocked when you unlock the device.
14:56:11 <fizzie> I was thinking it might be reasonable to have both a key like that + a separate passphrase-protected private key, if you wanted to require more from SSH authentication than from in general unlocking the phone. Just because fingerprints are so convenient.
14:56:17 <fizzie> But in retrospect maybe that's not really much of a security benefit over just having a single passphrase-protected public key stored in a regular file.
15:02:29 <wib_jonas> fizzie: could you just handle that on client-side, by encoding the second private key not by your passphrase, but by a tuple of your passphrase and something secret derived from the device key?
15:06:31 <fizzie> AFAIK, the only things I can ask the hardware to do is to sign something or to verify a signature, using the protected private key. So it's not entirely obvious how to use that for protecting the second private key.
15:09:13 <fizzie> I guess technically I could use the signature of my passphrase as the "something secret derived from the device key"? At least that works in the scenario where someone has the (second) private key file, and knows my passphrase.
15:09:47 <fizzie> OTOH, it would probably involve writing some code, I don't know if I want to go that far.
15:16:59 -!- imode has joined.
15:23:13 <wib_jonas> fizzie: I don't think that's a good idea
15:24:23 <wib_jonas> ask other people here who understand this crypto stuff though
15:31:00 <fizzie> It's obviously not a good idea in the sense that knowing the passphrase and that one signature would be sufficient to decode the second private key file, as opposed to something where you would actually need to have control over the first private key and show you can sign anything with it. But it's not clear how to do that on the client side.
15:32:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:52:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
15:53:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:54:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
16:01:51 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:03:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
16:08:02 -!- imode has joined.
16:10:43 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit).
16:12:42 -!- imode has joined.
16:27:41 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Attribute grammars tho, amirite).
16:43:54 -!- gitlogger has quit (Excess Flood).
17:03:51 -!- MDude has joined.
17:07:01 -!- fungot has joined.
17:23:03 -!- b_jonas has joined.
17:33:19 <kmc> fungot: welcome
17:33:20 <fungot> kmc: to avoid cgi. anything beyond that becomes unmanageable to an alarming degree. it happens to work in
17:34:34 <fungot> b_jonas: because the second a symbol and a tarpit, though. he's not back for real, l is for life and still not overflow any buffers will be flushed anyway.
17:35:05 <fizzie> fungot: Now, is that CGI as in Common Gateway Interface, or as in computer-generated imagery, or something else?
17:35:05 <fungot> fizzie: but the possibility of using exceptions in another implementation
17:35:14 <b_jonas> so you're not back for real?
17:35:37 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:47:49 <pikhq> fungot: we like you
17:47:49 <fungot> pikhq: well there is real work to be done by someone else?"
18:51:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Someone else * New user account
19:14:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: you know what I'd like in a browser? make the stop button terminate all network connections that the current tab initiates, including the ones that client-side scripts do.
19:15:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66691&oldid=66668 * Someone else * (+317)
19:35:15 <esowiki> [[A?!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66692 * Someone else * (+792) Created page with "A?! is a minimalistic programming language. All variables have alphanumeric names and boolean values and there are only 6 commands: A! - Negates the value of variable named..."
19:37:13 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66693&oldid=66692 * Someone else * (+60)
19:38:45 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66694&oldid=66693 * Someone else * (+16)
19:41:54 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66695&oldid=66694 * Someone else * (+62)
19:50:57 <b_jonas> hmm... says "There is a kind of beauty in simplicity and turing-completeness." to get our hopes up, then posts one of these languages that are not turing-complete, nor even missing turing-completeness in some interesting way
19:57:22 <int-e> appreciates art. not an artist.
19:58:23 -!- imode1 has joined.
19:58:29 <b_jonas> int-e: "I am interested in esolangs and I find it to be a lot of fun to try and create simple and elegant languages."
19:58:41 -!- imode has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:58:43 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess they do say "try"
19:58:44 -!- imode1 has changed nick to imode.
19:58:46 <lf94> is there a page on esolangs that says the different kinds of langs? by some category?
19:59:29 <zzo38> Yes there is categories in esolang wiki
20:05:56 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66696&oldid=66695 * Someone else * (+68)
20:09:29 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:19:50 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66697&oldid=66696 * Someone else * (+234)
20:20:11 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66698&oldid=66697 * Someone else * (+2)
20:20:38 <esowiki> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66699&oldid=66698 * Someone else * (+9)
20:23:34 <int-e> this looks like a cute book: https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1184961738518814720/pu/img/vJw7QjCDvI09mCuw.jpg
20:26:37 <int-e> from https://mobile.twitter.com/JanelleCShane/status/1184951446212530178 ... oh there are videos, actually
22:10:28 <HackEso> 1/1:darknet//The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services. Said services are paid for in plant roots and earthworms. \ uwe boll//Uwe Boll is the undefined behavior of cinematography. \ spämmer//Spämmers are advertisers of Spämmi, the delicious Finnish fish product. \ ĥäŝkéll//ĥäŝkéll is not what you were looking for. Try again. \ piet//Piet is a really colourful programming lang
22:18:59 -!- tromp has joined.
22:22:17 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:41:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: I agree; I want the stop function to stop everything.
22:59:52 <zzo38> Do you know what generation VIII stuff will be relevant for Pokemon mahjong?