< 1571961833 594832 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.23.205.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1571961868 454546 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1571962488 517227 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1571962816 623617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wy would co be time-reversing? < 1571962818 566157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :h < 1571962896 786937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it normally produces duals < 1571963122 358783 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1571963200 360548 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1571963464 874459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess time-reversing seems like an odd sort of dual here. < 1571963483 143169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the way in 2-categories you have two different kinds of duals, which are called co and op. < 1571963499 362754 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1571963515 406211 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1571964254 88134 :moonheart08!~androirc@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric < 1571964602 533301 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1571965192 113035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1571965676 980301 :moonheart08!~androirc@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1571966902 838308 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the practical use of "cubical type systems" guys? < 1571966925 286090 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to describe more complex types, rigorously? < 1571966927 923043 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a cubical type system < 1571966958 459232 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i'm remembering correctly... something derived from homotopy type theory... < 1571966966 504093 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is about types in the realm of homotopy < 1571966970 184894 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote lambda cube < 1571966971 37886 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :886) FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE < 1571966974 934884 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1571966976 830647 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it isnt lambda cube < 1571966980 169518 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately I don't understand HoTT at all < 1571966982 241448 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cannot help you < 1571967002 853392 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I understand HoTT is defining types as a start and an end < 1571967011 2825 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you get all the types inbetween for free or something... < 1571967047 115708 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so imagine you have a type a -> b, and another type c -> d, well you can somehow get types inbetween these two... < 1571967064 520201 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm probably totally fucking botching the definition. :) < 1571967067 897484 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1571967265 474424 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe shachaf understands HoTT < 1571968959 938472 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure don't understand cubical types. < 1571968966 594727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or HoTT. < 1571968976 527991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :HoTH < 1571982506 883043 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1571984198 139192 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66799&oldid=66643 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+84) 10/* Fibonacci sequence */ < 1571985899 676679 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-96.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, int-e, oerjan, re line length: (1) note that some irc clients (some versions of xchat) ask for that obsolete feature by default where the server puts a "-" or "+" character before the message, that takes an additional char, and < 1571986019 576394 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-96.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) use the environment variables $IRC_CHANNEL and $IRC_NICK to determine the length of the target; note that if $IRC_CHANNEL doesn't start with one of # or @ or + then it's a nick and $IRC_NICK will be the target of the reply < 1571987534 238708 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-96.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1571990585 452356 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1571990761 803944 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I almost almost almost have another esolang. < 1571990844 127119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is (almost almost) almost = almost (almost almost)? < 1571991040 815795 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably probably probably is. < 1571991247 803385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is that free association? < 1571998393 566087 :morioka!7a878483@FL1-122-135-132-131.tky.mesh.ad.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1571999328 654265 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think that those are two different things < 1571999751 355192 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1571999754 604890 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ftoc -13 < 1571999755 289027 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-13.00°F = -25.00°C < 1572001953 823323 :morioka!7a878483@FL1-122-135-132-131.tky.mesh.ad.jp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1572005228 534182 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1572006529 250337 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 I think ^ is described a bit incomprehensive on Acyclic tag page: what does “one command at a time” mean if the pointer points to a string of commands and there is no sub-pointer to count commands in that string < 1572006529 345068 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1572006570 496730 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe it was already noted… < 1572006577 781514 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn’t logread < 1572011775 369485 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572011793 87191 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello my fellow harp tuners > 1572012887 229849 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mechafinch 5* 10New user account < 1572012922 865512 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :```sport < 1572012923 442646 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``sport: not found < 1572012925 590507 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` sport < 1572012932 260383 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this tool for < 1572012933 974473 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sport < 1572012934 955450 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :sport divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore. < 1572012941 820442 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOVE IT < 1572012956 142101 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1572013071 121456 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" < 1572013071 707247 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>- < 1572013078 311126 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing! < 1572013092 385736 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` cat /hackeso/bin/asmbf < 1572013093 616991 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: /hackeso/bin/asmbf: No such file or directory < 1572013097 925916 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` whereis asmbf < 1572013098 794790 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :asmbf: /hackenv/bin/asmbf < 1572013107 395026 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :```cat /hackenv/bin/asmbf < 1572013107 826742 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``cat: not found < 1572013112 858567 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` cat /hackenv/bin/asmbf < 1572013113 623492 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr / \\n | bfasm < 1572013145 909936 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :```asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" < 1572013146 425964 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``asmbf: not found < 1572013151 199511 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" < 1572013151 750140 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>- < 1572013157 393432 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" | sport < 1572013158 417673 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/7:+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>> < 1572013178 976681 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` asmbf <<<"mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6" | sport 7 < 1572013179 90481 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)) < 1572013179 814084 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :7/7:<<<<<-<+>>>>>>-]<<<<<<[>>>>>>+<<<<<<-]>[>>>>-<<<<[-]]>>>>>>++++++<<<<<<+>>>>[<<<<[-]<+>>>>>-]<<<<<[>>>>>+<<<<<-]>[<<<[-]>[-]>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<+>+>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<[>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<-]>[-]]>>>>>>[-]<<<<<<]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]<<<[-]>[-]>>]<<] > 1572013332 108232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66800&oldid=66762 5* 03Mechafinch 5* (+363) 10/* Introductions */ < 1572014050 560510 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1572014896 12317 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1572014910 105866 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1572014939 627228 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ^ Sigyn k-lined kspalaiologos < 1572015180 905750 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that's not great. < 1572015246 335391 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the whitelisting doesn't (and can't) really cover the case of people talking to the bot, in addition to the bot talking to people. < 1572015280 435631 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1572015300 90566 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, it's just unlucky timing that this caught him before it caught me < 1572015309 588482 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think I'm too late for this: < 1572015309 624865 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spam the channel way more than that < 1572015319 557693 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If opped in your channel you can ask Sigyn to unkline an user, /msg Sigyn unkline , you have a dozen minutes to do so after the kill/kline, it only works if the user was banned due to abuse detected in your channel." < 1572015324 39889 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it's still worth a try. < 1572015326 60173 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely too late, because the k-line isn't easy to undo < 1572015346 504377 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :fizzie < 1572015354 551968 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1572015360 31513 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1572015368 157476 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:55 'kspalaiologos' does not match any recent bans from #esoteric < 1572015370 706425 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunate. < 1572015382 701630 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :check if you've typoed his name, I always do < 1572015382 867551 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie MODE #esoteric -o :fizzie < 1572015389 738789 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I copy-pasted. < 1572015401 757841 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not from my chat, I hope < 1572015410 158526 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, from the k-line message. < 1572015413 838016 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been more than a dozen minutes, unfortunately < 1572015443 882629 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was hoping "dozen" was the sort of very rough approximation. < 1572015471 284455 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least kspalaiologos is still reading the logs < 1572015499 79528 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally we should teach one of our bots to recognize that particular spammer who was the reason why you invited Sigyn < 1572015585 9445 :ornxka!~ornx@unaffiliated/ornx NICK :notabotiswear < 1572015603 816016 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if those kills are temporary? Looking at the code, there's some references to a "duration". < 1572015620 726037 :notabotiswear!~ornx@unaffiliated/ornx NICK :normalcomputerus < 1572015652 792177 :normalcomputerus!~ornx@unaffiliated/ornx NICK :ornxka < 1572015657 70478 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't know, maybe ask #freenode or FireFly < 1572015672 730219 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it looks like they are, but I can't tell how long they are because that depends how they're configured it. < 1572015699 173872 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, of course it's temporary compared to the heat death of the universe, the question is the scale < 1572015762 666174 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably that testing would've probably been better on #esoteric-blah, but I don't think we want to be kline-strict about that sort of thing. < 1572015773 425231 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1572015791 657744 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kicking and banning for 15 minutes it is fine < 1572015800 475761 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why a bot that you control could do it < 1572015803 480249 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the bright side, "(Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))" looks like some kind of S-expression. At least there's that. < 1572015910 194332 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should we ask Sigyn to leave for now? I don't even know if there's a standard self-service way to do that. < 1572015943 682375 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: kicking them probably makes them leave < 1572015950 432722 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, then kickbanning them should < 1572015982 497208 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds plausible. Opinions? Is it too unsafe to have, given the sort of thing this channel does? < 1572015987 479904 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could ask nicely < 1572015999 994536 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigyn: fizzie would like to ask you to leave now < 1572016102 432903 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1572016106 96813 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what just happened < 1572016152 2803 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos1: the real kspalaiologos got k-lined. if you're the same person, you probably shouldn't sneak back in because freenode may get angry about k-line evasion < 1572016169 475084 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos1: Sigyn is a bot that tries to catch spammers, let me find in the channel logs where we discussed it < 1572016201 91164 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the heck is kline < 1572016209 601240 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :started https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#ljbb < 1572016213 617199 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already taken a peek at the logs < 1572016224 322888 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos1: a ban from the whole network, as opposed to a ban that bans only from a channel < 1572016236 374802 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also lines with other letters that I don't follow < 1572016276 440585 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1572016284 761386 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I understand why so few people still sit on IRC < 1572016311 162447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the real target(s) never showed up :/ < 1572016312 919572 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#lKx and https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#lEq were the earlier spam < 1572016335 21424 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it < 1572016336 253850 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't me < 1572016341 425052 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you havent noticed < 1572016345 281687 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real me was registered < 1572016346 6627 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ksp: yes, I know < 1572016352 614350 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was quite obvious < 1572016362 185574 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think its obvious < 1572016364 578351 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody took the bait < 1572016365 579119 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that after those things, fizzie got annoyed and invited Sigyn in < 1572016371 454309 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can see https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10.html#ljbb < 1572016376 663502 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos1: I don't think anyone did < 1572016390 653457 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remembed someone did after taking a peek at the logs < 1572016446 467299 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they may be waiting, it's only been two weeks; or they may have showed up but got scared of Sigyn and left < 1572016463 42734 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: there is that possibility. < 1572016468 6747 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I hate it that I'm recognized so much lol < 1572016491 684606 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there were four or five days when he didn't show up before the spam that made fizzie invite Sigyn < 1572016524 530743 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos1: it's not that I recognize you specifically, but I can distinguish you from someone who spams yellow JS JS JS < 1572016533 958477 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean this < 1572016557 720044 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i constantly find people trying to annoy me, lie away my rep < 1572016571 274323 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sad, but well, happens < 1572016613 198180 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already sent a kind letter to the kline at freenode < 1572016629 219469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :will Sigyn trigger on any bfasm attempt now, I wonder < 1572016636 881338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no, I won't try!) < 1572016647 808243 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pff < 1572016657 944554 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate when that happens < 1572016691 149247 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully kspalaiologos will now be more cautious and experiment in either private message or some other channel < 1572016706 532050 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know I can get banned < 1572016770 359075 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll get unbanned eventually < 1572016772 972615 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though what channel there is where you can spam j-bot now I've no idea, because it doesn't seem to be in either #ijx or #jeval, the two botspam channels that we used to use < 1572016789 177262 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does accept private message, with slightly different confusing syntax < 1572016791 481372 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see you back in around a week < 1572016800 424725 :kspalaiologos1!~root@206.ip-51-91-102.eu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1572017345 830705 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, let's maybe try ask Sigyn to leave (feel a bit bad for wasting Freenode op time for the whitelists, but I guess that's what they're there for) and if we get spam problems, investigate something a little less drastic. Just a shame there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get the benefits (outsourced spamminess detection, network-level kills from real spamming). < 1572017399 137456 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :fizzie < 1572017402 634264 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: Not killed. Weekend tho. < 1572017407 135773 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie KICK #esoteric Sigyn :Really sorry about this, don't take it personally... < 1572017415 426169 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie MODE #esoteric -o :fizzie < 1572017459 343340 :glguy!~glguy@freenode/staff/haskell.developer.glguy JOIN :#esoteric < 1572017488 208576 :diverger!~div@195.12.48.214 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1572017853 443567 :diverger!~div@152.89.160.120 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572019037 56235 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572019044 152148 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol? < 1572019059 981117 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my IRC client was trying to reconnect me since 4pm every 10 seconds < 1572019072 526973 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm in for some reason < 1572019307 710477 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: We had help from a Freenode/Sigyn administrator to undo the kline. < 1572019324 415527 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1572019423 93462 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1572019780 283137 :glguy!~glguy@freenode/staff/haskell.developer.glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: You should have gotten a response to your support ticket from me. < 1572020006 559210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi glguy < 1572020023 11997 :glguy!~glguy@freenode/staff/haskell.developer.glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello :) < 1572020026 133497 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1572020034 384441 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check < 1572020040 460899 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess there is no need < 1572020104 107171 :glguy!~glguy@freenode/staff/haskell.developer.glguy PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just good to know if the responses aren't working in case you have some trouble in the future :) < 1572020976 959354 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1572021040 498027 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1572021836 275559 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do natural languages get their names? < 1572021856 867533 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :English, Francais, ... < 1572022049 953895 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the people who nominally speak them, usually? < 1572022065 900626 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the English speak English < 1572022096 914399 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he was expecting the etymology behind the names. < 1572022182 473318 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, but I would expect all the different peoples' names to have different etymologies, I don't think there's really a collective answer there < 1572022193 955934 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=etymology%20of%20the%20word%20english < 1572022206 3289 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the infobox is useful. < 1572022223 559278 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons#Ethnonym < 1572022261 250412 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see how that can be twisted into "English" < 1572022284 941021 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.etymonline.com/word/English?ref=etymonline_crossreference < 1572022286 727698 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is way better < 1572022289 379103 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles#Name is probably better < 1572022293 930732 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :England -> English < 1572022298 797831 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1572022303 908502 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure of it < 1572022308 511362 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet < 1572022312 304046 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interish < 1572022314 295647 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :B) < 1572022321 47338 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intrish < 1572022327 259336 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Onlinean? < 1572022341 815925 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, wasn't aware of the anglia penninsula. < 1572022347 878833 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/nn/n < 1572022352 739976 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm defining "the language of internet citizens" < 1572022353 569372 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1572022376 309784 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1572022379 866010 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you define that which is all. < 1572022391 882090 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder if 'Onlinean' would be pronounced "online|ean" or "on|linnean") < 1572022456 965880 :glguy!~glguy@freenode/staff/haskell.developer.glguy PART :#esoteric < 1572022472 466612 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=french < 1572022475 963681 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1572022484 330696 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They almost literally did "frenish" too < 1572022500 698484 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A similar contraction of -ish is in Dutch, Scotch, Welsh, < 1572022540 555962 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this website is fuckin' awesome < 1572022547 357587 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, etymonline si nice < 1572022549 880824 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :is* < 1572022582 540717 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we "live" in the "realm" of say, an array or list programming paradigm... < 1572022593 622331 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :listch could be a good language name < 1572022603 788748 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisch < 1572022607 209972 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lish < 1572022608 331522 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp < 1572022610 494290 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::v < 1572022640 558700 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrish < 1572022673 81374 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrich is easier to hear < 1572022673 266451 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :the swedish name for Sweden ("Sverige") stems from "Svea rike", which is lit. "realm of Svea" (the tribe that ended up uniting the different parts of modern-day sweden basically) < 1572022716 113223 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1572022739 107731 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572023116 773686 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :conveyich <- conveyor belt (array) based lang B) < 1572023151 634308 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise known as mode. < 1572023174 101586 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo if you called it conveyich it'd be easier to remember < 1572023193 234488 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :convich < 1572023244 618424 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :conveyor belt? reminds me of Rube < 1572023260 148559 :FaeFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Rubicon < 1572023325 538754 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: we'll start a fork and call it conveyich. < 1572023341 281901 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can sell conveyich ++ premium features as mode for $19.99 + tax. < 1572023359 564276 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what could go wrong. < 1572023384 254646 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually. < 1572023393 15422 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like to see pay-for language examples. < 1572023418 100938 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only seen things like lisp or scheme interpreters be paid-for < 1572023433 885525 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth implementations have sometimes been paid-for. < 1572023468 72660 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on ways to specify and consume arrays. < 1572023515 340532 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e ` : range [ dup$ roll until $0 do dup$ $1 - repeat drop last ] ; < 1572023531 158237 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :inserts the proper markers in the queue. < 1572023594 981893 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode lists / matrix languages are the future I think < 1572023621 380333 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages with semantics and implementations you can hold in your head are the future. < 1572023633 457095 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't lose track of them. < 1572023822 542240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1572024973 346123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572024999 986460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: well, the point is that it doesn't push the string as a whole onto the queue, rather it pushes each command in the string onto the queue < 1572025076 846046 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah. (But that one was obvious for me personally.) But maybe it would be good to rephrase differently anyway > 1572025087 426115 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Acyclic Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66801&oldid=66796 5* 03Ais523 5* (+13) 10is this description of ^ clearer? < 1572025105 168650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a better description? < 1572025125 990297 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think yes! < 1572025236 526443 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway this reminds me my pages usually lack usual examples which would be useful to understand what do commands mean; your trace immediately gave me a clear image what ^ does < 1572025249 895029 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/usual/useful < 1572025537 570596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: (1) sometimes you have to pay for the language standard, or learn from secondary sources. this is the case for Standard ML. < 1572025550 678079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: (2) paying for the compiler is more common: < 1572025598 296797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :large business users have to pay for microsoft's compiler < 1572025613 992873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a commercial prolog implementation < 1572025622 288042 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to pay for Mathematica and for maple < 1572025631 561512 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delphi < 1572025647 622479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's more but I don't recall all of that < 1572025650 813442 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose icc has a commercial plan as well? < 1572025655 227950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :free software didn't use to be the norm in the past < 1572025660 345796 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then, you payed for everything < 1572025677 899436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :p*ed anyway < 1572025683 226840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, there's a certain esoteric commercial model that you could do: < 1572025722 814431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when microsoft offers a version of their compiler for individuals and small businesses, but makes large businesses pay, they use legal threats for that < 1572025739 428106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they claim that it's illegal for you to use the compiler if you're a large business < 1572025766 519876 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what definition of large business. < 1572025772 970158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than that, an esolang could use documentation threats: document that if you use the free version and you're a large business, then every program runs into an undefined behaviour < 1572025796 58572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawful developers will fear to rely on that the compiler happens to work now, because if the docs say that it's undefined behavior, then it could break any time, < 1572025799 58192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they will pay < 1572025822 399644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: dunno, Microsoft has a whole license agreement and whatnot for this < 1572025825 73909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the details < 1572025837 478450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: imagine 30 day trial period instead if you prefer, < 1572025843 135836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :same enforcement methods apply < 1572025856 646538 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :E774 RANDOM COMPILER BUG. < 1572025863 813479 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahahahaha. < 1572025873 465100 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey my code does X when it should do Y" "have you paid the troll toll?" < 1572025887 456665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally a random compiler bug, something like 10% chance IIRC < 1572025892 909961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however there is a command-line option to turn it off < 1572025907 273321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CLC-INTERCAL has /two/ random compiler bugs and the more obvious command-line option only turns one of them off) < 1572025922 362086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, you normally have to turn it off in practice if you're doing anything remotely automated < 1572025934 311757 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, "you have to pay for Mathematica" < 1572025935 571084 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sure < 1572025945 233016 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to give money to Wolfram. < 1572025949 745330 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I < 1572025961 514442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica is probably the best example, because they actually sell decent software, < 1572025969 532625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the evil part is only how they sell it: < 1572025971 716602 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shame it's not by decent people, though. < 1572025978 825080 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do they sell it though? < 1572025984 344858 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not interested in financial part of Mathematica < 1572025986 688114 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1572025999 969164 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with this < 1572026015 442260 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they give almost free copies to students, who learn the program it, and then, of those, then ones who turn out to be code monkeys and decide that they can only use a programming language if they were taught it at school, they will now have to buy Mathematica because they didn't take a Java course < 1572026028 253900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like giving free drugs to children < 1572026064 623323 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram the founder is also a bit crazy, but he doesn't, like, personally develop the whole thing, so it doesn't matter < 1572026088 677679 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :any paid language ecosystem will eventually fall prey to open source alternatives because the majority of interested individuals are predisposed to like "free and equivalent < 1572026089 758922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :during the (2,3) Turing machine thing, Wolfram asked me to write Mathematica versions of the code I'd written (fair enough given the context), and gave me a /trial/ version of Mathematica to do it on (not even a perpetual license), so I didn't end up using it much beyond translating the code < 1572026109 302155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: that didn't happen to matlab < 1572026112 849959 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is this what they call edutainment < 1572026113 711839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, I forgot about matlab < 1572026118 991433 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :matlab is the best fucking example < 1572026123 466044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see so many people using it for some reason < 1572026126 764968 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: were you aware of wolfram's reputation at the time? < 1572026127 854652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my opinion on Mathematica is that the language itself is pretty terrible (it's basically an esolang, but not a tarpit), but the standard library is excellent < 1572026134 198609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite that it has an actually better free software alternative, octave < 1572026137 97858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seriously don't get it < 1572026143 221416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: well, I'd read /A New Kind of Science/ < 1572026152 508111 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's the standard library that is good < 1572026158 751615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you get the standard library for money < 1572026173 508016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are actually one or two clones of the core language I think < 1572026191 187257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the core language isn't really that different from Lisp + pattern-matchinig < 1572026222 106115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I won a student license of Mathematica once, but I think it was limited for one year or something < 1572026229 853081 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really use it for anything < 1572026264 415105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the university has the free student copies that they use for marketing, plus there are illegal copies < 1572026276 102308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Matlab has all those ready-made toolboxes for various domains and the option of generating efficient code for simulation from it... and a strong userbase. < 1572026278 760361 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica is really good one though < 1572026291 313503 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :paywall is quite big though < 1572026297 529446 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("efficient" is certainly relative) < 1572026299 647054 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but it doesn't seem to me like people are using those ready-made toolboxes < 1572026307 737185 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones where I'm confused about using matlab that is < 1572026337 488286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, cpressey isn't here, he'd have an opinion on this stuff < 1572026410 99200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit that I'm biased against matlab because of how it manages to have a huge artificial difficulty in the source code format, more serious than python's indentation or java's one class per file < 1572026421 959401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :matlab requires that you put every function in a separate file < 1572026430 404844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that and the one-based indexing < 1572026454 73917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java doesn't actually have a one class per file restriction, it's just that you can't refer to a class from other files if its name doesn't match the filename < 1572026461 858533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because the compiler wouldn't know where to look for it) < 1572026469 967504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can put an entire Java program in one file if you want to < 1572026500 191946 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it will compile to a merry collection of dozens of class file < 1572026501 207301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1572026524 457611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you put those into a jar, or you can do some class loading magic yourself instead < 1572026771 145324 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hat one-based indexing. < 1572026773 139765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hate < 1572026798 662050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic, lua, matlab, gap, mathematica: I hate your stupid one-based indexes, and I hope you painfully stub your toe on an off-by-one error < 1572026820 460914 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e: but it doesn't seem to me like people are using those ready-made toolboxes => I think we had a course on fuzzy inference or something, with lab tasks (how are they called properly?..) written for IIRC such a toolbox. Though I hadn’t done them and I don’t like fuzzy math in any form anyway < 1572026884 820740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some golfing languages use 1-based indexing, possibly so that they can use 0 to mean "last element", but it often seems to cause trouble there too < 1572026915 712172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame English for this, if the word for "first" were based on the word for 0, the word for "second" were based on the word for 1, and so on, there wouldn't be any confusion < 1572026934 571523 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : that and the one-based indexing => and Mathematica too :( < 1572027010 395020 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but they're not based on "one" and "two" either. people could just go 0:first, 1:second, 2:twoth, 3:threeth, 4:fourth, 5:fifth, 6:sixth, 7:seventh, 8:eightth < 1572027023 793222 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, 0-means-last... interesting. < 1572027033 915593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless nobody can pronounce "eightth", in which case it would have to be the traditional "eighth" instead < 1572027047 739595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, but there'd be no real advantage to that < 1572027055 242721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should at least fix the off-by-one error in the process < 1572027079 866054 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : I blame English for this, if the word for "first" were based on the word for 0, the word for "second" were based on the word for 1, and so on, there wouldn't be any confusion => how many languages do have that, though? < 1572027080 499815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: maybe the base should depend on the variable name. z[] would be zero-based, o[] would be one-based, m[] would be -1-based, t[] would be two- or three-based depending on the phase of the moon < 1572027086 249476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :f[] would be 42-based. < 1572027112 282862 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ouch < 1572027139 759957 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: or “eighttp” < 1572027204 330825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: for all I know, /all/ natural languages get this wrong :-D < 1572027233 18693 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: same with me, so I think this is a deeper problem < 1572027258 285039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's apparently a universal default among languages, though that at least means there are no problems when translating indexes < 1572027282 382552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in every language, you have to make it clear whether you're using one-based or zero-based, so translation of that part is mostly trivial < 1572027287 898224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one. first. hmm. < 1572027291 556290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problem at all! < 1572027344 294666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any wrong or right here, actually. < 1572027416 760991 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty esoteric question BTW: am I getting it right that ΓL(V) for a complex vector space V is way bigger that GL(V) ⊕ GL(V̄) (V conjugate here) due to shady automorphisms of C stemming from the axiom of choice? < 1572027466 886242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :When assigning the first item a number, do you do that before or after counting it? That's the main distinction between 0- and 1-based counting. < 1572027600 654616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the trick is to see the items as size-1 things rather than size-0 things with size-1 gaps between them < 1572027611 707878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first item goes from 0 to 1, the second from 1 to 2, the third from 2 to 3, and so on < 1572027629 307197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifying the /end/ of an item when counting it on its own is perverse < 1572027640 158319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for a range, you specify the start of the start of the range, and end of the end of the range < 1572027693 720724 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the perversion. < 1572027903 58853 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, about indexing. you're in the UK, so you probably use public transport sometimes. you're on a bus (or train), and a lady asks where you have to get off if she wants to go to X. you know that (a) she has to get off after the bus has opened its doors three times and closed them twice (the bus is now between stops), (b) after the bus has opened its doors three times and closed them three times < 1572027909 40784 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the bus is currently at a stop). how do you tell them when she has to get off? < 1572028010 991029 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bus stops are what keep making me uncertain that zero-based indexing is always the right choice. < 1572028025 115952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a train I would use the name of the stop, that's easier than counting (and I'd list the names of the stops in between if it were necessary to give an approximate count) < 1572028096 93537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a bus I wouldn't be confident of counting the stops correctly, in Birmingham bus stops are very frequent and are ignored by the driver unless someone inside or outside asks the bus to stop, so when there's a little-used stop it's easy to forget it exists < 1572028103 867250 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, it's easy in civilized countries where you can rely on the bus or train always telling the passengers the name of the stop in easy to see ways < 1572028133 713821 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't buy that it's always like that though, because I've traveled to western europe, and even there people are sometimes uncertain about which stop the train is at < 1572028136 758837 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :locals too < 1572028157 698844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, when used I take the train home late at night, there was an above 50% probability that someone would miss their stop < 1572028167 610825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bus stops have a perfectly natural zero-based counting interpretation. < 1572028171 116347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the local train company is investing in new technology to make the name of the stop clearer < 1572028172 727773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get on the zero-th stop. < 1572028179 453140 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :+at < 1572028226 36534 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if someone asks you /anything/ on the bus, it is almost certainly between stops; the dwell time at a stop is normally very short, and if it isn't, the environment inside the bus will be too chaotic to do much asking/answering of questions < 1572028235 14173 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *sigh* did they name two adjacent stops exactly identically, with the second one being the one where most people have to get off, like they did here on the M3 bus towards Nagyvárad tér at Népliget? < 1572028261 584183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's possible, but very few people use bus stop names here < 1572028267 784102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally they'll just describe the place where they get off < 1572028285 118906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bus stops /have/ names but they're not widely used, I think they exist only for administrative purposes < 1572028310 687294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1572028313 812940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the buses used to have an instruction "please tell the driver which stop you plan to get off at when buying your ticket", I managed to cause confusion by being one of the only people to actually follow this instruction) < 1572028325 683741 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you look up the timetable of buses on the internet if you're not in the bus stop where you want to get on yet? < 1572028336 87021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we use the name of the bus stop for that < 1572028350 603856 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, you don't have to remember the exact name, just choose it from the list of stops on the bus line < 1572028350 938235 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finished my minesweeper < 1572028357 376373 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I made it in malbolge just so it's harder < 1572028362 818595 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : the first item goes from 0 to 1, the second from 1 to 2, the third from 2 to 3, and so on => yeah, one time I tried to make some notation for two interleaved Z’s, specifically to make off-by-1 harder^W easier to reason about < 1572028375 787278 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using the same assembler for malbolge and brainfuck so possibly I could supply you with a runnable version < 1572028393 26996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that because tickets can have different prices depending on the destination? < 1572028395 160963 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for curious: https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess/raw/master/minesweeper.7z < 1572028410 642270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this is what our online timetables look like: https://nxbus.co.uk/files/NX-West-Midlands/current_timetables/2019-Timetables/1st-Sept-2019/6163tt01September2019.pdf < 1572028411 726724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: what? weren't you writing it in bf? < 1572028422 579153 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1572028430 514849 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I compiled it to malbolge and optimized a bit by hand < 1572028431 405854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 63 route probably has over 100 stops but the timetable only lists a few important ones that most people will recognise < 1572028433 916295 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a cool twist < 1572028442 118755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see < 1572028443 132811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for stops in between, you interpolate < 1572028453 977517 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can supply you a brainfuck version in a second < 1572028460 981492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the bus driver will only aim for consistent timings at stops actually listed in the timetable, if they get to one of those stops early they have to wait) < 1572028470 20244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1572028472 805117 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's a sort of assembler < 1572028486 975428 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :existence of zero is a pain here, as we would want names for “gap integers” to be symmetric wrt sign inversion, and then we almost ruin any sense of inventing them at all < 1572028496 252557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see < 1572028510 294947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, tickets used to have widely varying prices depending on destination, but the system was simplified many years ago now < 1572028598 511089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are basically only five types of adult ticket: one for a single short journey, one for a single journey of any length, a day ticket limited to one operator within a certain area, a day ticket limited to one operator but allowing you to use any of their buses no matter how far they go, and a day ticket that works on all the buses in the conurbation < 1572028641 850429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leads to only two things that need memorizing (how far a "short journey" is – in practice the bus drivers often seem to not know this or get it wrong; and where the boundaries of the areas for local day tickets are) < 1572028648 939390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yeah if there is a mistake then it's using the same numbers for both points (fence posts) and intervals (fence segments) < 1572028695 694297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: once you conflate those you will make an arbitrary choice... and cause upset if you mix those two choices :) < 1572028713 564696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agreent-e < 1572028727 144058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, also the prices on some of these drop after 9:30am, but that doesn't change where the ticket is usable < 1572028731 587622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This year, I traveled on public transport in five different areas abroad, and at each place I knew at least a little how the pricing system works, but now I forgot most of it < 1572028733 993178 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I haven't read any of the context so I assume this is about array indexing. < 1572028737 189736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just depends on when you buy it < 1572028763 759383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether the inclusive choice (picking 1 for 0--1) is somehow psychologically more appealing. < 1572028772 962718 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the five places were Amsterdam, Rotterdam, London, Dortmund, and Köln < 1572028785 34868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that could explain why so many (all?) natural languages agree on that. < 1572028789 646003 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: shachaf: I agree with all of us also. We only need to think up appropriate names and decide would they be for things or intervals < 1572028804 507834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Amsterdam, Rotterdam and London, I used pre-charged proxy cards for paying < 1572028818 695462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blog.nelhage.com/2015/08/indices-point-between-elements/ describes it pretty well. < 1572028819 606513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe because of there was no concept of zero for so long < 1572028832 698859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be using one of those in Gävle too later this year, now that I think of it < 1572028887 919419 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and I totally agree with that pointer view on zero-based indices in programming languages. < 1572028914 707335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Amsterdam, the system is that prices for metro and tram vary depending on source and destination stations, so you have to check in and out with the card, in the stations for metro but the vehicle on trams; but on bus, there's a single fair, so you only check in with the card, not out < 1572028921 171180 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :London has a system similar to that < 1572028946 52072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a bit confusing because london has three different types of urban rail lines, not just two like in other places < 1572028986 357692 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1572028990 880393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(C got that one wrong for variable-sized arrays at the end of structs.) < 1572028993 982790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dortmund and Köln were more confusing. no proxy card, but paper tickets, < 1572029035 415656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: How do you mean? < 1572029048 627605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the vending machines were a pain: sometimes they don't accept bank card, only cash, and only low denomination cash too; sometimes they pre-validate your ticket and sometimes they don't and I couldn't tell when they'd do which one, I wasted at least one ticket on that < 1572029055 721945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or maybe I'm confusing myself?) < 1572029123 919655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this was an older version of C that didn't have variable sized arrays so you would be forced to write T foo[1]; instead. < 1572029150 418368 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Budapest, day tickets and other time-based tickets are always pre-validated, whereas single tickets and other distance-based tickets aren't... well, that's not quite true, HÉV tickets are for specific stations... < 1572029154 434672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all confusing < 1572029163 10218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably still confused. Will check, but not now. < 1572029195 191691 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :indices pointing between elements is practical, I agree, but we could accidentally start these from 1 too and not break anything, so there should be a stronger argument for 0-based. Personally I like 0-based naturals too, but these for obvious combinatorial/foundation-theoretic reasons < 1572029202 91380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 has "flexible array members", struct T { ...; char array[]; }; < 1572029227 196768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Birmingham doesn't require explicit ticket validation; tickets might be checked anywhere on the route (start, during, end, multiple times, not at all), and might or might not be marked when checked to prevent you reusing them < 1572029230 282379 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow vararg struct < 1572029231 374639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe because of there was no concept of zero for so long => how would that influence me? there was a concept of zero when I was born, and when the textbooks I've read were written < 1572029241 806894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: 0 is at distance 0 from the start! < 1572029246 199868 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indices pointing between elements should definitely start at 0. < 1572029267 350865 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For an array with n elements there are n+1 indices, going from 0 to n. < 1572029292 282681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and something unknown is at distance 0 from the end :( < 1572029298 479261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's how train tickets work here, so in exchange you always have to specify the two ends of the journey and the route < 1572029300 458008 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That reminds me of this diagram I made once: https:/slbkbs.org/ranksel.svg < 1572029307 719115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it’s an argument equally against 1-based too :D < 1572029343 887573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: C does this a lot... pointers are allowed to point just after the end of an array (that is, *at* the end of the array in the distance view), but you are not allowed to dereference them. < 1572029361 16404 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : For an array with n elements there are n+1 indices, going from 0 to n. => yes that rings true for me < 1572029374 809871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, which is very reasonable. < 1572029378 448422 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: So C gets it right, it just describes it in an awful way. < 1572029385 54695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1572029396 866997 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what happens if your last array element is at UINTPTR_MAX? < 1572029397 202965 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess/raw/master/minesweeper.bf < 1572029398 259928 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how should we denote index numbers < 1572029399 139423 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck version < 1572029399 420274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(:P because I wrote earlier that there is no right or wrong here) < 1572029399 709377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I guess bus tickets are validated in the sense that they can only be purchased at the start of the journey, and have the time at which they're purchased on them, that's basically a form of validation < 1572029407 179170 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :requires unbuffered input (e.g. the DOS getch()) < 1572029413 724454 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite fast actually < 1572029420 286523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's how single tickets worked in Germany, which confused me < 1572029422 469512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exception: you can buy day tickets for future days, or even for unspecified future days, in the latter case you have to mark the day on them yourself before you start using them) < 1572029423 331178 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: There may be no right way, but surely there are wrong ways? < 1572029423 980113 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for that reason, element… names < 1572029425 185470 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 1:1 equivalent of what I've got with Brainfuck < 1572029444 166418 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :α β γ δ like the old nomenclature for aminoacids? < 1572029446 574165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and day tickets sometimes worked that way, but sometimes you had to validate them the first time you use them to set the start time < 1572029451 595747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: True, but I was only considering the two reasonable options for counting. < 1572029470 786305 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 α 1 β 2 γ 3 δ 4 < 1572029471 428474 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For counting fence segments, that is. < 1572029474 987062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but my problem is that it wasn't clear for me from the vending machine interface what I'll get before I pay < 1572029488 257354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the trains, single tickets can be bought in advance, and there are flexible options that can be used at any time during the day in question < 1572029496 251055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those often aren't validated at all on short journeys < 1572029510 469305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's how trains in Germany work < 1572029517 43966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on longer journeys it's quite likely that a member of the train company will come round while you're sitting on the train and validate it mid-journey < 1572029539 735881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, and I think that job is called controller < 1572029541 357910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to prevent you using it on a second journey in the same directoin later that day) < 1572029543 158915 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ticket inspector? < 1572029554 47361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"conductor" is the most commonly seen word in English, but I think it's a historical relic and not accurate < 1572029560 501613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ticket inspector" would be clear < 1572029564 501472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a cultural thing though... other countries have gates at platforms where you show your ticket or invalidate it with some machine. < 1572029583 606914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when entering and leaving < 1572029586 134349 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously if you write a loop it should loop over values that computers represent naturally, like integers, rather than Greek letters. < 1572029590 721611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oddly, on some trams in Rotterdam, there are three separate jobs for the driver, the conductor, and the ticket inspector < 1572029596 566058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/conductor#Noun definition 3 < 1572029612 898850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the UK has those too, but only at some stations < 1572029617 737762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the conductor sits behind a huge circular desk that takes up way too much place of the train < 1572029620 740766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the tram < 1572029624 894865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're expensive to run because you need a contingency plan for if someone turns up without a valid ticket < 1572029631 690330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus can't get through the gate < 1572029632 185775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would never work here, because the trams are so full < 1572029638 630046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought people were bad conductors. < 1572029665 91171 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW what does an invariant and reasonably symmetric definition of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-ratio looks like? I’ll reinvent it myself but if anybody knows it’ll be quicker < 1572029720 654011 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I knew meanings 2, 3, 4. But not the more generic meaning 1? < 1572029732 153120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, London, Amsterdam, Rotterdam all have automatic gates for the metro stations that read the proxy cards < 1572029737 830466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not quite < 1572029754 284722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally this means that when you have a ticket barrier, you need an employee on the platform side of the barrier with tickekt-selling equipment < 1572029754 815588 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they didn't seem to provide any useful service, so yes < 1572029777 575426 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I used meaning 4 of course. < 1572029792 20534 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :More specifically the electrical one. < 1572029794 871837 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: basically they sometimes had a microphone, and sometimes yelled at people or told where we are, all of which the automated system with recorded voice also did, but the conductor could preempt it < 1572029818 933855 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, suppose we have some vector space V without inner product; then we take four coplanar lines from there and we should be able to get their cross ratio < 1572029831 81484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some stations in London, there's someone who operates a public address system and simply tells the passengers where to move to stop them getting in each others' way < 1572029854 466702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the crowds can be so large that you can't rely on everyone in them to act sensibly without instructions < 1572029871 936203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's comparable to the type of conductor b_jonas is talking about? except for platforms rather than on the tram < 1572029904 432113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, the most annoying speaker system I've met is in the Amsterdam Schiphol airport. they have captions everywhere that it's a "silent airport" so there are no announcements on the speaker about airplanes starting, you should look at the displays instead, < 1572029937 389490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the airport has long corridors with walking strips, and there are speakers that say "Mind your step" every time someone is near the end of one of those strips < 1572029954 977943 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought people were bad conductors. => why, that’s mainly because of skin resistance. If the skin is wet or wounded, it plummets < 1572029957 432541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you hear "Mind your step" in the same voice repeated a hundred of times when you're there < 1572029966 213130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how that's supposed to help anyone < 1572029987 66561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: what do you mean by "invariant" < 1572029992 517611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, probably < 1572030015 846825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Oh yeah there's a Darwin award for that. < 1572030034 488738 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it shouldn’t use distances (which aren’t here, after all), it shouldn’t use coordinates < 1572030038 231313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html < 1572030046 743728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: here we have people continuously guarding platforms on on metro M4, because that's the only one that's driver-less. < 1572030053 715288 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically they replace the drivers. < 1572030079 129432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sort of makes sense, because in an exceptional situation, they have to act in the stations anyway, not anywhere else < 1572030094 317375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, at the moment person-trapped-in-door-detection technology is not cost-effective enough to be good enough to be safe without a person checking for that < 1572030107 313928 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even though it takes about as many employees as there would be drivers, it works better < 1572030112 837297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're probably payed less than drivers too < 1572030125 830558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK it's usual for the person in question to travel on the train, but they could be on the platform < 1572030169 693373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, it's only metros that have the principle of "emergencies mostly happen at stations", on long-range train lines they're more likely to happen somewhere else, so the human supervision definitely needs to be on the train in that situation < 1572030198 695196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, some really big stations, like Birmingham New Street, have their own staff that check the trains for safety before leaving, that gives the staff on the train a break) < 1572030237 231758 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, in London, one of the three urban rail types is driverless, but still has conductors on some carriages < 1572030286 587042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC not consistently, it's driverless on some lines but not others < 1572030358 132289 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not just that. it's more like that trains are rarer, so there are much fewer trains than train stations, so it would be expensive to have someone man every station; whereas there are about as many metro trains as metro stops. < 1572030366 840077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, still not quite < 1572030370 595705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the ratio is better < 1572030375 497261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general it's unwise to expect consistency from London transport, because a) most of the lines were built at different times, taking new technology into account; b) not all the lines are upgraded at the same time; c) many lines need to make compromises due to the presence of other lines < 1572030379 902647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably more than half as many metro trains than metro stations < 1572030396 108735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also on trains, the conductor doubles as the ticket inspector between stops < 1572030410 135117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you count trains vs. stations it may be comparable; but if you count trains vs. platforms, there are many more platforms < 1572030417 255182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for metros, that is) < 1572030419 242609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, you can see that from how narrow some of the passenger tunnels are < 1572030425 976364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they wouldn't allow building such narrow ones these days < 1572030519 363856 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can see the inconsistency here too: that's why all stops of metro M4 have elevators, but no stops of the other metros do < 1572030521 503160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :London is basically like a foreign country, to people living elsewhere in the UK < 1572030568 819909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, and I only ever visited London so far < 1572030908 443441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'll see more if you organize that #esoteric meeting < 1572031478 375048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although with so many people leaving and returning, I don't know if UK people are still the pluarlity in here < 1572031504 771348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall where some of the newcomers and returning esolangers live < 1572032372 909647 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1572033311 384352 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572033380 76128 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Client Quit < 1572033967 692115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1572033997 924499 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1572035565 990685 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:207b:c511:fa8a:ce26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572035756 11633 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:ad79:9a03:fcf0:f3dc QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1572036169 474801 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1572036757 124988 :ChicoBN!~Censor@144.178.143.151 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572036784 72646 :ChicoBN!~Censor@144.178.143.151 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1572036812 566174 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1572036847 545093 :ChicoBN!~Censor@144.178.143.151 PART :#esoteric < 1572036955 618616 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible, to modify a C compiler such as gcc, in order for it to compile a variant or derivative of C? < 1572037055 531992 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1572037280 169873 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARCUN: yes, of course < 1572037285 895990 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I don't know how difficult it is. < 1572037287 742222 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact gcc already compiles many variants or derivatives of C < 1572037307 470216 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably, how difficult it is, depend on the variant of C) < 1572037307 629730 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports several revisions of the C spec and numerous non-standard extensions, not to mention C++ and Objective C < 1572037351 413363 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, some of the GNU extensions I think is good and I use them, such as writing ?: with nothing in between, and supporting zero-length arrays. < 1572037401 610031 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does ?: with nothing in between do? < 1572037426 491510 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of modifying it so that an esolang looking similar to that of an obfuscated C program < 1572037429 103733 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :x?:y means x?x:y < 1572037443 84454 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a few quirks < 1572037526 638579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 has flexible array members. Why do you need zero-length arrays? < 1572037594 920183 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1572037633 344493 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like flexible arrays, and I think zero-length arrays is clearer and fits with everything else, rather than being something separate. < 1572037755 156528 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : x?:y means x?x:y <-- without reevaluation, presumably. < 1572037779 409276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1572037844 22546 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: to allocate a struct with a variable array element that's empty < 1572037899 970249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1572037903 70383 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one use of zero-length arrays, yes. But, there are also some other possibilities < 1572037914 908914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proper sizeof computations, perhaps. still haven't checked what the issue was there. < 1572038033 998815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Do you like this? https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander_Nadel/publication/325968980_Chronological_Backtracking/links/5b3a08e84585150d23ee95c8/Chronological-Backtracking.pdf < 1572038107 362971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by default, no < 1572038123 695582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1572038132 268413 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1572038138 713929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrelatedly, what do you think of this chronological backtracking thing? < 1572038148 494665 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In particular, the decision level of the variables in the assignment trail is no longer monotonously increasing." < 1572038204 36643 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed in the log the discussion of the one-based indexing in Lua, BASIC, Mathematica, etc. In BASIC you can start arrays at whatever integer index you want, but strings start at 1. < 1572038258 379591 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/asmbf < 1572038259 64313 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr / \\n | bfasm < 1572038302 609651 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sled bin/asmbf//s/^/print_args_or_input "$@" |/ < 1572038304 266095 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/asmbf//print_args_or_input "$@" |tr / \\n | bfasm < 1572038422 545359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, it's partly the strings that bother me, partly the indexed property interfaces I access, which are sometimes 1-based and sometimes 0-based < 1572038426 153358 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bfasm mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6 < 1572038452 360544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum < 1572038470 830417 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1572038502 498979 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :curious < 1572038581 822573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: try starting with `asmbf rather than `bfasm < 1572038628 610952 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: What indexed property interfaces is that? < 1572038657 192889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's always good to revisit design decisions < 1572038707 94779 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh duh < 1572038717 459961 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asmbf mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6 < 1572038718 183051 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>>- < 1572038737 204943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1 asmbf mov r4,.F/mov r1,.0/mov r2,r1/lbl 1/out r1/out r2/out 32/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,2/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,.9/jnz r3,3/mov r3,r1/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,5/lbl 6/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jnz r3,4/inc r2/jmp 1/lbl 2/sub r4,5/mov r1,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 3/sub r4,5/mov r2,r4/add r4,5/jmp 1/lbl 4/inc r1/mov r2,.0/jmp 1/lbl 5/mov r3,r2/eq_ r3,r4/jz_ r3,6 < 1572038738 216463 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/7:+>+[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>>>>[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[-]<[>+<<+>-]<[>+<-]<]>+<<+<<[>>->+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[->+<<[>>>-<<+<-]>[<+>-]>>[<->[-]]<[<<<+>>>-]<]>>[-]<<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>[[-]>>.>.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<[-]<<[>>+<<<+>-]<[>+<-]>>>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<[<<<<+>>>> < 1572038762 334293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit more convenient to use that way < 1572038821 379341 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yarr < 1572038826 452573 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting pretty fucky in here < 1572038876 500118 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm finished with that hth < 1572038890 108785 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just adding *_args_or_input on principle < 1572039018 631476 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.6 < 1572039070 214351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: uh, I don't remember the details. something about specific VBA interfaces of this siemens thing. < 1572039338 332624 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that kline is particularly ironic since iirc Sigyn was invited because of someone stalking em < 1572039354 856815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1572039365 635645 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is/was/ < 1572039387 452547 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i haven't finished the logs yet < 1572039402 866384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just putting it out there ;-) < 1572040369 268199 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1572040548 405991 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Client Quit < 1572040567 656900 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1572040582 513743 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Client Quit < 1572040599 879296 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1572042573 88242 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a compiled concatenative language that I'd like to add logic programming features to. metamath seems like a reasonable starting point because, as far as I can remember, it's concatenative with respect to the proof steps. < 1572042614 621708 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :anybody know how verifiers in metamath work, or have any down-to-earth information about the language? < 1572042640 385652 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a rather verbose introduction on wikipedia but I've yet to encounter an "all-encompassing documentation set that walks you through some example proofs. < 1572042657 741850 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the metamath book would be a good starting point, haven't read that yet. < 1572044612 276737 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1572046091 268772 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1572047555 536281 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.13.149.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds