2019-10-01: 00:47:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:09:40 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 01:11:57 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:12:37 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:13:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:27:56 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:28:23 -!- atslash has joined. 01:34:16 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:35:24 -!- atslash has joined. 04:42:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:46:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:51:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:53:51 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:02:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:56:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:02:20 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Msully4321 * New user account 06:06:03 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66408&oldid=66386 * Msully4321 * (+200) introduction 06:06:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:07:17 i've been quoted 06:07:37 [[Wikiplia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66409&oldid=56754 * Msully4321 * (+120) add a link to the wikiplia source code 06:09:33 kmc: I hate it when that happens. 06:19:56 i think most of my quotes here are not too embarrassing 06:20:06 though i'm sure if you went through the logs you could find loads of embarrassing things i've said 06:20:17 @nixon 06:20:17 I'm glad I'm not Brezhnev. Being the Russian leader in the Kremlin. You never know if someone's tape recording what you say. 06:20:38 perfect choice, lambdabot 06:23:24 i think my #haskell quotes are probably more embarrassing 06:23:28 @quote kmc 06:23:28 kmc says: φ you lambdabot 06:23:39 ok that one's pretty good 06:24:26 @quote int-e 06:24:26 int-e says: C++ does make a reasonably usable high-level assembler 06:25:04 Oh that... I still agree with. 06:26:28 @quote oerjan 06:26:28 oerjan says: hotsmack 06:26:40 OKAY 06:26:49 @quote oerjan 06:26:49 oerjan says: surprisingly, Cale is not a lambdabot command. afaik he may even be human. 06:27:38 @quote Cale 06:27:38 Cale says: Basically, we've known how to implement first class functions efficiently for 20 or 30 years now, and we've known about their importance to abstraction in programming since before the 06:27:38 advent of electronic computers. There's no excuse to still be writing new programs in languages without them. 06:28:21 . o O ( This demonstrates a severe lack of creativity when coming up with excuses. ) 06:28:29 (Sorry, Cale) 06:29:21 @quote php 06:29:21 dmhouse says: elisp is the PHP of the Lisp world. 06:29:54 * oerjan finds himself starting to whistle stars and stripes forever 06:30:18 the strange thing is i can only do that unconsciously 06:30:23 oerjan: now why does that remind me of Duke Nukem 06:30:35 @quote kmc 06:30:36 kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥." 06:31:13 ^ the kind of cringe i was expecting 06:31:13 because whenever i try to whistle it consciously, i can only remember the 2nd and 3rd movements 06:31:16 i'm not wrong though 06:32:06 int-e: also i don't know, i've never played duke nukem 06:33:10 cringily correct, the best kind of correct 06:34:18 speaking of cringes... "blockchain is essentially a distributed state machine" 06:36:09 (from https://heise.de/-4514954 (in german)) 06:36:42 => universe = quantum blockchain 06:37:32 at least they come to the conclusion that there aren't any convincing use cases for blockchain technology in the context they're considering (namely, in combination with microservices). (bzzzzzt!) 06:37:54 oerjan: It's all reversible, right? 06:40:56 Needless to say I completely disagree with that mental model... a ledger only incidentally keeps track of a current state; its purpose is to be a record of history. 06:48:11 thgir 06:48:26 `? thgir 06:48:26 thgir? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 06:49:33 . o O ( `le/rn password//The password of the month is up for grabs. ) 06:50:17 oerjan: .hO 06:51:50 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:52:45 Hello 06:55:05 I wonder, are there more bots than regular users? 06:56:32 I don't think so. 06:56:46 (Assuming the question is about this channel.) 06:57:54 * int-e wonders where gitlogger logs to (if the place is public we should mention it in the topic) 06:59:43 Or maybe it's not logging the channel but logging other sources on the channel? Who knows. 07:05:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:10:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:11:47 we're all bots here 07:13:08 int-e: I think you can just as easily say that a ledger exists incidentally as a form of distributed consensus about a current state 07:13:23 but perhaps there is some context to your statement that I am missing 07:13:26 kspalaiologos: at one time there were 10% bots, but i think there are fewer now 07:14:27 🤖 beep boop 🤖 07:14:50 @quote robot 07:14:50 byorgey says: now we have the pig operator <^(++)^> as well as the robot monkey operator (:[]) 07:14:56 @quote bot 07:14:56 rwbarton says: also, a generally safe answer to "was there an update to lambdabot recently" is "no" 07:15:29 admittedly there are also fewer users overall 07:17:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 07:17:23 kmc: I want to distinguish a ledger from a mere database 07:17:40 ok there are 7 nicks i know are bots, as well as 2 that look suspiciously like bots, so there _may_ be 10% 07:18:27 ok gitlogger is a bot, and i'm unsure about diginet 07:20:58 anyway... 07:21:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:44:01 oerjan, it's my bot. 07:46:34 [[AlphaBeta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66410&oldid=65916 * Kritixilithos * (+645) turing completeness 07:48:16 I'm making a bot mirroring the IRC logs for a few servers 07:48:30 github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/ 07:49:01 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:56:28 Good morning and happy October. Say I have a semi-Thue grammar with the following property: for every word w, it is not possible to derive w in zero or more steps starting from w. Can such a grammar be Turing-complete? 07:57:22 (This is an attempt to put "Is there a language without NOP and in which it is not possible to build a NOP?" on a more rigorous basis.) 08:08:48 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 08:12:04 -!- int-e has set topic: IOCCC winners are denounced; early July 2019 still pending definition | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/. 08:14:42 kspalaiologos: more bots than users => it's hard to tell, we have a lot of irc connections of whom we know nothing 08:15:00 probably not though, because most of the bots are users 08:26:28 also, since I keep announcing these, even though there's no formal *list , https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/throne-eldraine-update-bulletin-2019-09-27 Throne of Eldraine Update Bulletin (M:tG) 08:29:19 `fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020191004.txt 08:29:21 2019-10-01 08:29:20 URL:https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020191004.txt [741298/741298] -> "share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt" [1] 08:31:51 `` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\r rules.txt 08:31:53 No output. 08:33:12 `` set -e; cd share/mtg; grep Arbor rules.txt 08:33:12 No output. 08:34:15 `` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\r rules.txt 08:34:16 No output. 08:34:17 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:34:46 ``` set -e; cd share/mtg; cat rules.txt 08:34:47 ​Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of October 4, 2019. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is the ultimate authority for Magic: The Gathering® competitive game play. It consists of a series of numbered rules followed by a glossary. Many of the numbered rules are divided into subrules, and each separate rule and subrule of the game has its own number. (Note that subrules skip the letters “l” and “o” du 08:35:13 What's this bot 08:35:42 note: I accidentally stripped "r" and "\\" characters rather than "\r" characters, so the "\r" characters remain, and those make HackEso truncate the output. I wonder if any wisdom has one. 08:35:47 `? HackEso 08:35:47 HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo. 08:35:51 `? HackEgo 08:35:52 HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico! 08:35:53 `help 08:35:53 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch [] " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 08:37:24 `run cat /etc/passwd 08:37:24 cat: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory 08:37:33 Where was passwd stored 08:37:42 C'mon, too much windows 08:37:57 `run hostname 08:37:57 ​(none) 08:38:20 `run ls /bin 08:38:20 bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ journalctl \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile \ lesskey \ lesspipe \ ln \ login \ loginctl \ ls \ lsblk \ mkdir \ mknod \ mktemp \ more \ mou 08:38:40 HackEso has a bunch of commands idiosyncratic to this community, some of them we use a lot 08:38:46 for example the `` command 08:38:58 you can find them in /hackenv/bin 08:39:03 What's its meaning 08:39:16 `ls /hackenv/ 08:39:17 a.out \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom 08:39:21 some of them have long descriptions in the wisdom database, which you can access with the ? command , or short descriptions in the whatis database 08:39:24 `? `` 08:39:25 ​` is the prefix to greatness. 08:39:27 `? ``` 08:39:28 ​```? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:39:30 `? ` 08:39:31 ​` is the prefix to greatness. 08:39:37 hmm, that doesn't quite explain it 08:39:49 Is the source code public? 08:39:54 `? source 08:39:55 Sources for HackEgo can be found at https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/multibot + https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox . Sources for HackEso can be found at https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackbot + https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/multibot + https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/umlbox . 08:39:59 My bot here uses Perl 08:40:13 but most of the magic is in the commands itself, which you can usually read directly from the commands in bin 08:40:32 'bin/``' runs a shell command, so typing '```' invokes that 08:40:35 ``` echo foo; echo bar 08:40:36 foo \ bar 08:40:44 it's similar to the run builtin 08:40:46 I'll take a look on this 08:40:54 When I'm home 08:40:57 `whatis `` 08:40:58 ​``(1hackeso) - run shell command 08:41:05 there's also a single-backtick 08:41:07 `whatis ` 08:41:08 ​`(1hackeso) - run shell command using New Zealand locale 08:41:16 I don't want anyone bashing me for slacking in work :d 08:41:36 the New Zealand locale is actually the default for everything, and the double backtick command unsets it 08:41:52 kspalaiologos: what bot uses perl? 08:42:07 gitlogger 08:42:16 I use it to mirror chat logs 08:42:22 Of various irc channels 08:42:38 `perl -efor(1..7) print $_**2," " # HackEso has a perl interpreter installed 08:42:39 syntax error at -e line 1, near ") print" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. 08:42:47 `perl -efor(1..7) { print $_**2," " } 08:42:47 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 08:43:14 Nearly every UNIX-like box has perl installed 08:43:29 also a python3 interpreter, a ruby interpreter, a javascript node.js interpreter, a prolog interpreter, a C compiler, an sqlite3 interpreter, and more 08:43:38 I quite like perl and enjoy it over other scripting languages 08:43:38 kspalaiologos: yes, that's probably why this has a perl too 08:43:55 Why would anyone need node.js cmon 08:44:01 there's also perlbot, which is a fork of buubot, and can run perl commands 08:44:18 kspalaiologos: this is #esoteric , we experiment with languages even when they're weird 08:44:23 not with php though... eww 08:44:24 kspalaiologos: as the evil twin of perl, i have to dislike it 08:44:34 Thats actually neat 08:44:38 what? you're the evil twin of perl? 08:44:39 Is perl bot runnint? 08:44:44 *running 08:44:51 I think so, but it's not in this channel. let me test 08:44:56 wib_jonas: i fail to remember how to trigger factoids 08:45:05 My crappy irc client won't let me view the list. 08:45:08 yes, it's running 08:45:09 try /msg perlbot echo hello, world 08:45:27 It's sandboxed obviously? 08:45:31 Virtualization? 08:45:44 everytime i think about how perl is as old as me, something makes me dislike it even more 08:45:47 Has it got disk quotas/execution quotas and memory quotas? 08:45:59 myname: I dislike perl, but for different reasons 08:46:05 I used to write a C compiler in Perl 08:46:20 Yet I slightly dislike Perl for some reasons. 08:46:27 wib_jonas: there are plenty of reasons, but a bunch of those is related to its age 08:47:08 are 08:47:12 zzo38: M:tG stuff above, you probably already know 09:49:21 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:51:35 `? myname 09:51:36 myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. 09:55:20 `? password 09:55:21 The password of the month is ninjaed. 09:55:34 oh it’s still not ch… 09:56:04 `learn The password of the month is not what it seems 09:56:10 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is not what it seems 09:57:08 * arseniiv is overjoyed 09:58:36 arseniiv: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10-01.html#lcb ;-) 10:00:54 ``` hg cat -r 11684 wisdom/password | perl -e'print substr(,0,34)' 10:00:55 The password of the month is "over 10:00:56 joyed? 10:01:16 int-e: I couldn’t logread, what if oerjan sneaked on me; also my password was in priority as it would someday be discovered anyway, it’s so simple, so I couldn’t not set it today, no way 10:02:03 arseniiv: You mean this was all premediated? Can't argue with that. 10:02:17 (Though I do enjoy the illusion of free will.) 10:02:23 was, was, this is in the logs somewhere even 10:02:37 int-e: I’ll search for it 10:03:54 i am tempted to make some kind of website where the password to enter is actually the password of the month as registered in the bot 10:04:14 arseniiv: yeah, it's tricky because two people may try to set the password at close to the same moment. it may be best to use HackEso's atomic write capability and use a command that updates the password only if the $(hg log -T {rev} -l 1 wisdom/password) is what you expect 10:05:01 int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-09-01.html#ljd 10:05:41 wib_jonas: I’ll hope we all are too slow for a coincidence to happen for the next 23 passwords at least 10:06:47 we could make a co-ordinated effort. 10:07:24 hm it occurred to me while I wrote but I hoped still 10:08:05 at least hopefully there will be no ordinated co-efforts, whatever this could be 10:08:51 arseniiv: is this leading up to a co-worker joke 10:14:53 int-e: hm depends on what it is, I hadn’t heard it 10:16:29 when I eat rice I remember a Bashō haiku https://matsuobashohaiku.home.blog/2019/04/12/gazing-at-morning-glories-eating-breakfast-basho/ though I have yet to do it at dawn, and eating it with butter as I do certainly shouldn’t count 10:17:28 also prior to this, I didn’t know the history behind that one 10:17:47 even the history behind any of them at all 10:25:23 arseniiv: a worker is somebody who labours diligently and gets things done. a co-worker is ... 10:26:03 arseniiv: and that connects to "co-efforts" :) 10:36:57 int-e: mhm 10:39:43 What is the best way to compress base64 data with repetitive, incrementing characters? 10:40:34 e.g. ABCD01234 10:41:05 It's not like there will be such patterns all over the file and they might not appear at all 10:41:20 But they are quite common as I can tell. 10:43:17 kspalaiologos: I don't know about "best" but if there are incrementing sequences, you could replace each character with the difference between it and the previous character, getting long strings of 1's, which should compress well 10:43:38 That's a neat idea 10:43:59 But I think it can be improved 10:44:35 As characters get incremented, in case of ABCD I can compress it to A and ascii(3) 10:44:55 Then I could apply burrows-wheeler transform to it and pack it using PPMd 10:45:13 I just wonder if there is something smarter 10:45:20 In case the compression fails 10:45:35 And the downside is, no sequences longer than 32 characters. 10:54:36 kspalaiologos: turn it to a pixel graphics where you store one character per pixel, in indexed mode, PNG compress it. PNG handles repetitive differences well because one of the approx five pixels automatically does that difference thing, and some png writers can choose the right filter automatically. just be careful, PNG has a tradeoff between 10:54:37 large file and slow compression versus small file and slower compression 10:54:48 you can change the compression speed with magic options to the PNG encoder 10:55:00 Won't it artifact the file? 10:55:13 Just asking out of curiosity 10:55:26 PNG compression is usually lossless 10:56:01 also, use grayscale 8-bit rather than indexed 10:56:36 that said, even any ordinary compressor would work fine on such data 10:56:42 PNG is probably an overcomplication 10:57:27 I wonder how you even get increasing sequences in base64 though 10:57:30 that#s a funny idea, though 10:57:53 ugh, switching between keyboard layouts always shows somehow 10:59:15 does it really_ 10:59:45 I canát imagine what thatás like. 11:26:21 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 11:26:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:44:27 It's just weird esoteric stuff 11:44:44 If I wanted simple answer I'd ask elsewhere 11:45:10 I managed to compress 50MB of this stuff to 1MB, but I'm still a bit disappointed 11:45:26 And the place where I may accept it is around 30KB 11:46:11 a factor of 1000 is quite something to ask for 11:46:43 The data is really, really eaisly compressable 11:47:03 I can toss you a sample when I'm home, or probably even now 11:47:26 github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions and find there 7z compressed file 11:48:01 that's a lot of z 11:49:54 So yeah 11:50:00 As you can see 11:50:10 kspalaiologos: I seem to remember that SE has increased the limit on the size of post contents, but I can't recall if it's increased it _to_ 30 kilobytes or _from_ 30 kilobytes 11:50:20 The upper bound is 65K though 11:50:41 wib_jonas, I'm active user and it's 65k now 11:50:54 *an 11:51:34 I am also an active user, but only reached the limit with my own post once, and know of like a handful of other nodes that are long enough for that 11:53:15 I think the limit was 32 kilobyte when I posted https://scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/q/10266 , which was in 2016-10 11:57:21 wait, I had a data.stackexchange.com query for this 11:58:39 https://data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/951529/longest-answers 12:05:40 kspalaiologos: is there any information on what this data *is*? 12:07:58 yeah, if you know what the data is supposed to be, you might be able to write a better specific compressor 12:30:17 I am informed that that query is wrong, it looks at the length of the rendered HTML, not of the source code of the post. 12:39:08 int-e: it's base-64 encoded sequence of six distinct characters with their ascii value equal to the original value plus their position, so AAAA is actually ABCD (i can't tweak this encoding) 12:39:25 Imagine ooooi/** 12:40:11 It will get (in theory) encoded to ABCDOZ01 12:41:33 The most frequent is encoding of character o, which base equivalent is actually B (for illustrative purposes, I've started with A before, hence the inconsistency) 13:08:15 kspalaiologos: I don't really understand what you're saying 13:09:08 is the offset always added to the character? if so, just subtract it, compare it that way, then add it back when you decompress 13:09:21 also the surface encoding isn't so interesting... does the ooooi/** stuff have any meaning? 13:09:43 int-e: perhaps they're malbolge instructions 13:10:24 oh 13:11:18 That makes sense. Is it the Malbolge Malbolge interpreter? 13:11:42 (Unshackled) 13:12:37 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66411&oldid=62750 * Akangka * (+792) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */ new section 13:13:32 kspalaiologos: If so, your best bet for compression should be to golf the toolchain that produces the malbolge program. 13:14:18 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66412&oldid=66411 * Akangka * (+81) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */ 13:14:26 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:23:13 Its ungolfable 13:23:29 My toolchain is currently adding only 50% of size 13:24:29 Highly optimized and handwritten programs I made are only 66 percent smaller than my toolchain 13:35:40 I didn't mean to golf the output. 13:35:45 I meant the toolchain itself. 13:36:57 (I'm assuming that your intent is to post a program whose output is a malbolge malbolge interpreter, because the latter is just too big.) 13:40:44 [[Stable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66413 * Akangka * (+1499) Created page with "[[Stable]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that can push only zeroes. The only way to get nonzero number is to preserve the initial stack. This language is inspired by..." 13:51:32 [[Stable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66414&oldid=66413 * Akangka * (+786) 13:53:35 [[Stable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66415&oldid=66414 * Akangka * (-896) 14:07:18 Why would I Golf my toolchain 14:07:28 To make it unmaintainable? 14:10:38 * cpressey now wonders if there's an interactive OS shell based on K 14:16:07 kspalaiologos: so that you get a small-ish program that generates the huge malbolge program you wanted to compress. 14:17:06 Note that this is a form of compression, really. 14:17:52 (well I'm making some assumptions about the complexity of the toolchain) 14:21:36 or just post the thing on an external site, like github, and link to it 14:28:50 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:37:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:37:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:47:39 * cpressey wants to glob files with some kind of twisted list comprehension thing instead of boring *.?yz syntax 14:48:23 why not both 14:48:56 [file | file <- files, file `matches` "*.?yz"] 14:49:46 * cpressey selects all files whose names contain Pythagorean triples 14:50:30 because you name your porn like this? 14:54:23 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:56:24 `python3 -cimport os,re;print(sorted([e.name for e in os.scandir("wisdom") if re.fullmatch(r"c.*io.",e.name)])) # cpressey: does this help? 14:56:24 ​['cat elimination', 'cat introduction', 'ciol', 'cipation', 'citation', 'civilization', 'communication', 'composition', 'cut elimination'] 14:56:36 or is that not twisted enoguh? 14:57:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:59:52 It's a bit verbose, but it'll do for now 15:00:27 cpressey: um, you don't want to do boring *.?yz syntax, but you want something concise? 15:00:49 try all the tricks that zsh or modern bash offers in writing complicated globs 15:01:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:03:25 i prefer haskell list comprehension syntax ofer pythons 15:04:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:09:28 ``` python3 -c$'def n(e):return e.name\ndef c(n):return re.fullmatch(r".*ou?r",n,re.I)\nimport os,re;print(sorted(filter(c,map(n,os.scandir("wisdom")))))' 15:09:29 ​['applicative functor', 'cocoonspirator', 'codoctor', 'color', 'colour', 'coonspirator', 'coulor', 'endofunctor', 'eor', 'functor', 'gregor', 'ior', 'mirror', 'off by two error', 'or', 'postfridgerator', 'prefrigerator', 'racoonspirator', 'space elevator', 'supermarioperator', 'tarator', 'the most hideous cacophony in g minor', 'word salad detector', 'xor'] 15:09:42 cpressey: ^ how about if you don't use comprehensions at all? 15:12:14 ``` python3 -c$'import os,re;r=[]\nfor e in os.scandir("wisdom"):\n n=e.name\n if re.fullmatch(r".*ou?r",n,re.I):r.append(n)\nprint(sorted(r))' 15:12:15 ​['applicative functor', 'cocoonspirator', 'codoctor', 'color', 'colour', 'coonspirator', 'coulor', 'endofunctor', 'eor', 'functor', 'gregor', 'ior', 'mirror', 'off by two error', 'or', 'postfridgerator', 'prefrigerator', 'racoonspirator', 'space elevator', 'supermarioperator', 'tarator', 'the most hideous cacophony in g minor', 'word salad detector', 'xor'] 15:12:39 ^ though it's the easiest if you don't even use those fancy higher order functions that functional programmers like so much 15:12:45 and just write straightforward loops 15:13:29 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66416&oldid=66394 * A * (+37) 15:16:31 > let n = 10 in [show a ++ "." ++ show b ++ "." ++ show c ++ ".txt" | a <- [1..n], b <- [1..n], c <- [1..n], a*a+b*b == c*c] 15:16:34 ["3.4.5.txt","4.3.5.txt","6.8.10.txt","8.6.10.txt"] 15:18:40 cpressey: um, but didn't you mean to grep existing files? 15:20:50 Wow wib_jonas, you make it sound like I have an actual problem I need to solve. 15:22:48 ``` python3 -c$'for x in range(1,6):\n for y in range(1,x):print("%d.%d.%d.txt"%(x**2-y**2,2*x*y,x**2+y**2))' 15:22:49 3.4.5.txt \ 8.6.10.txt \ 5.12.13.txt \ 15.8.17.txt \ 12.16.20.txt \ 7.24.25.txt \ 24.10.26.txt \ 21.20.29.txt \ 16.30.34.txt \ 9.40.41.txt 15:23:30 -!- kpspalaiologos has joined. 15:23:34 -!- kpspalaiologos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:27:32 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:28:28 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Quit). 15:28:45 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 15:31:07 [ 3*83 15:31:08 wib_jonas: 249 15:34:03 For some reason I keep thinking J is postfix 15:34:11 Possibly I confuse it with dc 15:34:16 `dc 3 83*p 15:34:17 dc: Could not open file 3 83*p 15:34:20 `dc -e 3 83*p 15:34:20 249 15:34:36 [ (*&3) 83 15:34:37 wib_jonas: 249 15:34:42 [ */3 83 15:34:43 wib_jonas: 249 15:39:37 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:52:00 [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66417&oldid=66104 * A * (+538) /* Implementations */ A pastebin will expire at anytime, and I want to delete my GitHub repos. 15:53:19 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 15:54:06 [[Owk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66418&oldid=62163 * A * (+51) /* External Resources */ Copy everything from GitHub repo to wiki. I am deleting my repo. 15:54:49 [[Owk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66419&oldid=66418 * A * (+4863) /* External Resources */ I was dumb 15:57:03 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66420&oldid=66412 * A * (+308) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */ 16:09:53 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:11:27 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:14:33 -!- imode has joined. 16:18:38 -!- ski has joined. 16:23:38 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:27:38 I've failed terribly 16:27:42 trying to outsmart PPMD 16:27:50 eh, let's try with burrows wheller transform then 16:30:04 http://prntscr.com/pdh1g0 16:30:18 PPMd beaten by BWT/BZIP2 hybrid 16:30:26 no significant improvement though 16:45:45 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:46:17 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:51:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 16:53:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:54:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:54:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 16:57:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:02:26 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:06:54 good idea to try burrows wheeler 17:07:43 kspalaiologos: try with a modern compressor like xz or 7z 17:07:58 they fact I've got winrar on my PC 17:08:06 doesn't mean that I'm using it on daily basis 17:08:12 and doesn't mean, I've used it to perform the test 17:08:28 WinRAR can't pack 7zip archives, and in the attached screenshot you see clearly, that I'm using 7zip 17:08:59 kspalaiologos: I didn't look at the screenshot. did you try 7zip compression with the -mx=7 setting for slower but better compression? 17:10:09 I used highest settings in the GUI 17:10:29 how can you tell I'm using ancient compressor without looking at the screenshot? 17:11:01 kspalaiologos: because you said "PPMd beaten by BWT/BZIP2 hybrid" and BZIP2 is the somewhat old compressor 17:11:06 I wouldn't call it ancient, I'm not that young 17:11:17 BWT/BZIP2 hybrid is the thing I made 17:11:35 BZIP used Burrows Wheeler Transform, therefore I recalled BZIP 17:12:01 surprisingly, the BZIP actually works the best 17:12:14 I tried with PPMd, tried with LZMA2, but with a tiny bit worse results. 17:13:03 I guess what remains is to compress it in some reasonable way and host it somewhere outside of code golf 17:13:21 though how something such large is a reasonable answer to a code golf problem I don't understand 17:13:28 It's the thing I'm doing currently 17:13:36 I guess I shouldnt worry that much about my program size 17:13:43 because there are more important matters right now 17:14:02 like the fact that the program just eats entire memory available to the system 17:14:19 (but I'm certain that it has to work, if it had unlimited memory) 17:14:38 ouch 17:15:15 the conditions on ##c are unlivable 17:15:22 a lot of people jump in and jump back 17:15:32 so the entire IRC log is spammed like nowhere 17:17:17 you can have your client ignore them 17:17:28 well, I don't want to ignore them completely 17:17:38 because I want to know certain people that log in/log out 17:17:46 hide them 17:17:51 but on the other hand, I don't want to see all that spam lol 17:18:06 hide but have the computer remember it 17:18:32 I'm using XCHAT 17:18:44 and I don't really want to switch, because I've got a couple of plugins written in Tcl and Perl here 17:19:01 and I don't really think my client allows doing so, because I've just checked the settings 17:19:02 can't that show a list of nicks who are joined into the channel in a sidebar? 17:19:12 sure, I have it enabled 17:19:23 but it's neat to know the certain point they join or leave 17:19:26 or add a transparent irc proxy in between that tracks the users separately if you're feeling more adventurous 17:19:53 I like dissipating my time on not-so-practical things 17:19:55 but c'mon 17:20:12 I've got more interesting not-so-practical things to do xd 17:20:20 I'm fighting with shitcode I wrote two years ago 17:20:23 yeah 17:20:42 and the extent of this word is so unbeliveable 17:20:47 I can't really understand 50% of the code 17:20:56 I just don't know how it works and I change randomly the magic numbers 17:21:00 trying to find any corelation between thenm 17:21:05 oh, I've been an idiot 17:25:02 `asm lea (%eip), %rdi 17:25:03 0: 67 48 8d 3d 00 00 00 00 lea 0x0(%eip),%rdi # 0x8 17:25:13 Will this move the lower 32 bits of rip into rdi? 17:27:02 dunno. TIAS. 17:27:55 I don't understand how that's even a valid encoding 17:28:03 I don't know how those crazy prefixes work 17:28:51 `? tias 17:28:52 tias? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:29:10 `asm addr32 17:29:11 0: 67 addr32 17:29:17 `asm addr32; lea (%rip), %rdi 17:29:18 0: 67 48 8d 3d 00 00 00 00 lea 0x0(%eip),%rdi # 0x8 17:47:23 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:52:22 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 18:09:25 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:11:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:12:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:13:26 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:13:57 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:17 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:17:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:18:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:20:02 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:21:29 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:22:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:23:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:24:07 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:27:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:40:50 -!- MDude has joined. 18:41:28 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:06:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:09:37 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:19:19 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:42:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:49:38 -!- atslash has joined. 19:57:38 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:06:18 I have an SQL question. 20:12:21 Let's say I have a schema like CREATE TABLE cat(cid INTEGER PRIMARY KEY, cname); CREATE TABLE human(oid INTEGER PRIMARY KEY, cid, date, type, weight, FOREIGN KEY(cid) REFERENCES cat(cid)); 20:12:54 one cat can have more than one owner 20:13:59 I want to group the type 0 owners by cat, something like SELECT h.oid, h.cid FROM human AS h WHERE 0 = h.type GROUP BY h.cid; 20:14:33 and in each group (i.e. for each cat), I want to find the owner with the largest date, and join those owners with the cat 20:14:41 what's the sane way to do that? 20:16:35 I also want to filter the results to those rows where the latest owner has a weight larger than 50 20:27:37 wait wait... so the four main face buttons on both Nintendo controllers and Xbox contrllers are both labelled (A,B,X,Y), but in a different order, where Xbox buttons (A,B,X,Y) correspond to Nintendo buttons (B,A,Y,X)? (And the Nintendo B button corresponds to the Playstation X button, just to make it even crazier.) 20:27:55 how did Xbox end up with a conflicting convention for naming the buttons? 20:29:29 not sure how "good" it'll run, but something like a nested (SELECT stuff FROM human WHERE h.cid=cat.cid ORDER BY date DESC LIMIT 1) (where cat.cid is selected by the outside query) is at least an easily understandable way to get the last owner per cat 20:29:55 I mean, doesn't the SNES with its four buttons easily predate any microsoft game console? 20:30:22 olsner: oh yeah, I didn't tell the catch 20:30:26 make it work on MS SQL 20:30:39 but even without that, it's a bit tricky with the subquery 20:31:19 you need like doubly nested subqueries or something 20:33:18 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 20:33:26 Hello 20:33:34 hello kspa 20:34:05 apparently that max-in-group problem is so common it has its own tag on stack overflow https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/greatest-n-per-group 20:34:24 thanks, I'll look at that 20:36:25 let me intersect that with whatever is the tag for MS SQL 20:37:10 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/sql-server apparently 20:38:43 hmm, apparently all the ways to do it in MS SQL are ugly 20:39:15 good to know 20:41:08 they link me to https://kristiannielsen.livejournal.com/6745.html 20:42:07 note though that some of the solutions there won't work if multiple owners can have the same date. I want to choose just one owner in that case. 20:46:39 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:49:04 olsner: thank you 21:06:32 am I getting it right that Idris has algebraic effects and uses them instead monads, too? 21:07:25 I got to re-reading an article about that and this time it reads clearer 21:17:08 hm it doesn’t seem to have “handlers for normal return” 21:17:18 this oolong tea is tea gea 21:18:05 shachaf: it has an interesting taste, yeah 21:18:27 I mean, this specific one that I'm drinking. 21:18:34 I think it also has some amount of ginseng extract. 21:19:01 It modifies my mouth so that other things taste sweeter. 21:20:24 mhm I ate something with that property I think, maybe berries 21:21:05 Yes, there are those berries that make sour things taste sweet, but this is quite different. 21:21:18 huh 21:22:12 I like berry tea 21:22:14 https://hatebin.com/dqswcbuhwd work-in-progress expression evaluator. 21:22:26 for those of us who like prefix as opposed to postfix. 21:22:30 `? tea 21:22:31 Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean. 21:22:50 `cwlprits tea 21:22:51 oerjän boil̈y 21:23:17 imode: try Integ if you like prefix with lots of extra parenthesis 21:23:29 lol. 21:23:57 really this is just to make my life a little easier in terms of evaluating expressions. I'm intending on implementing parameter extraction after that. 21:24:16 so you can write stuff like ? 5 to specify the 5th parameter after the expression. 21:24:24 benefits of having a queue based language. 21:25:25 downsides are that on some malformed expressions, you can infloop. 21:26:34 ah, I remember and see from the article’s conclusion that effects, at the moment article’s written, are an experimental extension 21:28:20 authors note effects can’t cover continuations but I found another article claiming there’s a way, apparently if extending what we define an algebraic effect framework to be, I hadn’t read that one yet 21:29:25 so maybe Idris authors would be able to tinker with their effect module and incorporate continuations? Though anyway I hadn’t used them yet in that explicit sense in any language 21:32:37 re. tea: my dictionary says there’s no “alambic” and I think it should be “alembic”? 21:34:33 https://hatebin.com/qqqkghwhsh the quadratic formula. 21:35:21 BTW couldn’t someone explain call-by-push-value? Those guys use it 21:36:55 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:38:42 imode: wow 21:40:57 like the structure 21:41:05 it's strictly postfix. no parens needed. 21:41:06 oh I should go 21:41:19 err, prefix. 21:41:56 hm would you like to implement infix, with precedences? :D 21:42:18 hah! perhaps. queue elements are either single elements or two elements. 21:42:35 the operators, which are single elements, could be ordered in accordance with precedence. :P 21:45:07 queue elements are either single elements or two elements. => yeah it looks like you could write an interpreter of expressions with arbitrary value constructors, it would just need some abstraction of concrete predicates like `is-multiplication?` and an arity function 21:45:50 yup! 21:45:53 maybe you need a macro system? 21:46:15 pretty much where I was headed to, yeah. I plan on allowing the language to edit its own source. 21:46:18 at runtime. 21:47:28 hm I’d not call that a *macro* system :P or I thought about not the source you meant 21:48:04 happy algebraic effects day everyone bye 21:48:10 you as well! 21:50:21 wut 21:52:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:54:38 ah crap, when revising more? to not infloop, I forgot to include markers... 21:54:48 a "final result" should look like ( # ) 21:56:09 though in the case of misaligned or extra numbers, there should be a scan through the expression to check and see if there's operators present... 21:57:07 a better way to do this would be to check if we've scanned through the expression, done nothing but roll, and then once we reset the cursor, check if we've done any work. 21:57:31 if we haven't, remove the ending markers, strip away the operators and number separators, you're done. 22:08:58 what's interesting is that you can do something like... 22:10:58 ( *' # 2 # 5 ) ( +' # 3 ? 0 ) ! ! 22:33:29 which basically evaluates one expression, reserves the result in the queue, and then evaluates the other, but because of the layout of the queue, the latter expression uses the result (via ? 0). 22:47:40 -!- user24 has joined. 23:06:45 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:26:27 -!- FreeFull has quit. 23:39:31 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 2019-10-02: 00:00:22 -!- sprocklem has joined. 00:11:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:28:52 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:32:13 -!- sprocklem has joined. 00:38:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:45:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:49:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:52:33 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 00:55:52 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:04:45 note: I accidentally stripped "r" and "\\" characters rather than "\r" characters, so the "\r" characters remain, and those make HackEso truncate the output. I wonder if any wisdom has one. <-- i vaguely think we removed some of those from wisdom at one point 01:19:07 [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66421&oldid=66416 * A * (+226) /* Salary program */ Draft a proper Quine program (add a cheating quine just for the sake of competeness) 01:33:14 [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66422&oldid=62106 * A * (+314) /* Real Quines */ 01:33:50 [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66423&oldid=66422 * A * (+1) /* =Resource */ Whoops a typo 01:36:56 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:37:19 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66424&oldid=66423 * A * (+29) Well, pick out a self-referential cheating quine and add a quine (a placeholder) 01:38:54 [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66425&oldid=66424 * A * (+511) /* Keg */ Fill in the placeholder 01:48:02 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:55:04 -!- MDead has joined. 01:56:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:56:55 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 02:09:08 https://hatebin.com/opaqukmqhr added variable fetching. 02:09:12 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66426&oldid=62820 * A * (+3) /* Volatile instruction minimalization */ 02:12:51 oerjan: Oh communication with the Pa'anuri may be just around the corner. 02:22:45 one may hope 02:26:12 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66427&oldid=66421 * A * (+257) /* Useful Instructions (I am not sure whether they are useful in restricted source contests though) */ 02:29:53 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66428&oldid=66427 * A * (+419) /* Idea */ 02:31:48 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66429&oldid=66428 * A * (+139) /* Idea */ 02:32:49 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66430&oldid=66429 * A * (+52) /* Idea */ 03:17:22 `? tea 03:17:23 Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean. 03:20:32 arseniiv: ah it's the french spelling 03:20:41 I am drinking tea. 03:20:59 well that's how this started... 03:21:06 oo so long ago 03:21:24 This is green tea, not oolong. 03:23:00 `? oolong 03:23:01 oolong? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:28:05 [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66431&oldid=66430 * A * (+717) Put my submission here (feel free to steal it) 03:28:38 object oriented spaghetti code? 03:56:31 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66432&oldid=66431 * A * (+154) /* Idea */ 03:57:44 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66433&oldid=66432 * A * (+102) /* Idea */ 03:58:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:01:29 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:08:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:39:12 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:46:11 -!- sftp has joined. 04:46:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:47:46 [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66434&oldid=66433 * A * (+38) /* Cat program */ 04:50:26 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:53:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:56:46 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 04:58:19 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:02:22 -!- kspalaiologos has left ("Leaving"). 05:02:40 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 05:03:05 My IRC client kicked me for some reason, sorry 05:03:53 `5 w 05:03:55 1/2:free//A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms. \ patent//Patent is an adjective which means that something is painfully obvious. Often used to rightfully mock people that do not see it. \ vacuum tube//After the London terrorist attacks of 2005, the Underground was completely evacuated. Without air resistance, the trains would go at blazingly fast speeds between 05:04:06 `n 05:04:08 2/2: the terminals. This is called a vacuum tube. Sadly, current technology doesn't let passengers travel that way. \ misspellings of croissant//misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ gey//I know nothing about Gey, sir. 05:04:23 `cwlprits free 05:04:25 b_jonäs 05:04:33 Golly. I never heard it phrased quite that way before. 05:05:30 `cwlprits vacuum tube 05:05:32 wob_jonäs 05:05:42 @quote shachaf 05:05:42 shachaf says: i they are so love easy threads 05:06:43 Does "every vector space is free" just mean "every vector space has no nontrivial identities"? 05:08:04 hrm, what does that even mean. is this an attempt to say "every vector space has a basis" and sound categorical? 05:12:18 Yes, "has a basis" means "is free". 05:12:33 Or perhaps the other way around. 05:13:00 I think it's a pretty good perspective and not just categorical mumbo jumbo? 05:13:08 (Obviously it's also categorical mumbo jumbo.) 05:13:18 "free" has too many meanings 05:13:58 So I don't appreciate using it when there's a more precise term. 05:14:47 Aren't they all the same meaning? 05:14:57 s/precise/specific/ 05:15:21 I think this is one of the few clearly good bits of category things. 05:15:23 I don't have to think about what the structure we're completing is when you say "vector space basis". 05:15:39 I'm not saying not to talk about bases. 05:15:39 Wheras "free" adds a multitude of degrees of freedom, pun not intended. 05:15:57 But I think the main reason that people like vector spaces so much is that they're free. 05:16:16 If you found another structure where all the things you care about are free, it could be similarly useful. 05:17:16 (You can only express linear maps in terms of matrices and compute with them because vector spaces have bases, of course.) 05:17:36 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:18:04 shachaf: So what if we have a vector space over GF(2)... then v+v = 0 for all vectors v. How is that "free"? 05:20:31 It's free in the category of vector spaces over GF(2), of course. 05:20:40 I guess I should say what "free" means. 05:22:16 "A vector space V is free over a set X" means that for any vector space U, linear maps : V -> U naturally correspond to functions : X -> U 05:23:03 So you're free within the confines of a vector space. Yay. 05:23:11 (for a fixed field) 05:23:31 *and* you've just defined a basis 05:24:01 Yes, "free" means it has a basis. 05:24:28 I think it's pretty reasonable for "free" to be defined with respect to linear maps? 05:24:56 You can take the same definition for groups and group homomorphisms and it'll give you free groups. 05:25:37 . o O ( a free abelian group of order 2. ) 05:25:51 Or say a free monoid [A] over a set A is one where for any monoid M, monoid homomorphisms : [A] -> M correspond to functions : A -> M 05:27:10 Which just means it's defined elementwise, of course. 05:27:18 I guess one source of my dislike is in the statement you started out with 05:27:47 "every vector space is free" means that freeness doesn't tell us anything about vector spaces at all. so there's no need to talk or think about it. 05:30:08 But "every vector space has a basis" means the same thing about having a basis. 05:31:04 I'd say that freeness is a property, maybe desirable or maybe not, that you can talk about vector spaces having (as well as many other structures). Then you can prove the theorem that every vector space has this property. 05:50:50 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:00:30 `? vector space 06:00:31 A vector space is just a module over a field. 06:02:35 `? module 06:02:36 A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field. 06:08:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:40:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:59:58 [[Resource]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66435&oldid=66434 * A * (+187) /* I am a palindrome. Are you? */ 07:30:49 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:32:43 [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66436&oldid=66435 * A * (+182) /* Cat program */ 07:33:17 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:02:20 [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66437&oldid=66436 * A * (+659) /* Cat program */ 08:06:11 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:06:37 in case you haven't heard of it, https://www.rule30prize.org/ 08:07:55 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 08:08:23 those are interesting 08:08:27 i like the third one 08:23:32 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66438&oldid=66420 * Akangka * (+8) /* Pushing 1 deterministically is impossible. */ 08:40:58 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:42:47 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 10:05:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:09:10 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:33:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:07:05 -!- ivzem[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:07:06 -!- wmww has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:07:07 -!- Camto[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:07:25 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:07:47 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:18:07 -!- Camto[m] has joined. 11:35:37 [[This=That]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66439&oldid=57004 * Chris Pressey * (+19) See also also 11:36:14 [[This=That 2.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66440&oldid=57028 * Chris Pressey * (+14) See also also 11:37:14 [[This=That 2.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66441&oldid=66440 * Chris Pressey * (+2) bullets 11:38:07 [[This=That 3.0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66442&oldid=57027 * Chris Pressey * (+47) See also 11:39:02 what 11:39:11 how many versions are there 11:39:28 and why doesn't he just extend the first one 11:39:42 wiki has 3 11:40:47 I only remembered there being 1, but that was a long time ago. I had a dim memory of there being a Python implementation of it, but I don't see any implementations of any of them. 11:40:49 -!- wmww has joined. 11:40:49 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 11:40:50 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 11:40:57 -!- ivzem[m] has joined. 11:43:37 1.0 is by PuzzleHunter84 (in 2009), 2.0 is presumably by PuzzleHunter84 too (also in 2009), 3.0 is presumably by A (in 2018) 11:48:09 I think I must've been thinking of a different language 11:50:02 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:50:18 Oh wow, A is still active... 11:50:40 -!- atslash has joined. 11:50:55 i am nur surprised 11:50:56 (I'm still ignoring A related esowiki messages) 11:51:22 good choice 11:51:23 (It keeps me sane. Well, saner.) 11:52:44 it's a shame, though 11:53:15 somebody with that amount of energy could contribute quite good stuff if he just joined the community 12:10:21 [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66443&oldid=66439 * Chris Pressey * (+852) Attempt to describe the evaluation semantics, based on talk page. 12:10:54 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:12:52 [[This=That]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66444&oldid=66443 * Chris Pressey * (+29) +cat Unimplemented 12:13:59 Good morning and happy October. Say I have a semi-Thue grammar with the following property: for every word w, it is not possible to derive w in zero or more steps starting from w. Can such a grammar be Turing-complete? ← can't you just have every production add a junk element, together with extra productions to swap the junk element to 12:14:00 the end of the memory space? 12:14:31 then a perfect loop is always impossible because there's a total ordering on possible memory spaces that you can never move backwards through, and yet the computational class isn't affected at all 12:19:07 Oh I missed an easy string rewriting question with antique terminology ;) 12:19:29 semi-Thue grammars are more interesting than straightforward rewriting 12:19:42 ais523_: Probably. I later thought of it as being equivalent to a Tag system whose queue never shrinks and always eventually grows. I think it can still be TC because you can map a "nop" in the TM to an infinite number of states of the Tag system. 12:19:53 they're nondeterministic in the mathematical sense: whenever there are multiple rewrites possible, they always pick the one that makes the program not halt, if possible 12:20:03 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:20:13 -!- shachaf has joined. 12:20:32 unfortunately, the esolang Thue derived from them missed that notion of "nondeterministic" and it's been a pain to clarify what's meant ever since 12:20:36 ais523_: string rewriting systems *are* semi-Thue systems. 12:20:45 With non-determinism and everything. 12:21:01 int-e: well you can have a string-rewriting system with a deterministic rule for where to replace 12:21:09 I think that'd fail to meet the definition of a semi-Thue system 12:21:20 ais523_: Sure, that would be imposing a strategy. 12:21:27 (a deterministic strategy) 12:21:45 there are probably rewriting systems that are TC with a left-first imposed strategy but sub-TC when evaluated mathematically-nondeterministically 12:22:31 (I remember oerjan's proof that Fractran is sub-TC if you evaluate the program in a random order rather than left to right) 12:23:25 The lambda calculus *per se* doesn't specify a strategy either. To me, it feels a lot less like a programming language that way, a lot more like a proof system. 12:23:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:23:48 typed lambda calculus is confluent 12:23:56 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:24:01 ais523_: Well, when I say "rewriting system" there's no strategy by default. 12:24:02 untyped lambda calculus "feels" confluent to me in some generalized sense, but I'm not sure how to define it 12:24:42 (I've worked in term rewriting for 8 years. I can't help using the terminology.) 12:24:44 Pretty sure untyped \c is confluent too, but I may be misremembering 12:24:46 fwiw, the details of the evaluation strategy are pretty relevant in some cases; it was one of the more interesting (and arguably solvable) problems to come out of the work into Feather 12:25:24 the question being, can you write a lambda-calculus-with-continuations-like language which admits a self-interpreter with eigenratio 1 (without cheating) 12:25:46 ais523_: untyped lambda calculus (with beta reduction and alpha conversion, and possibly eta reduction) is confluent... what's your trouble with defining that? 12:26:07 ais523_: It gets murky if you don't have explicit alpha conversion... then it becomes confluent modulu alpha conversion. 12:26:13 the main issue in the naive way of doing it is that you can have terms like (\x.\y.y)((\a.a(a))(\a.a(a))) 12:26:15 modulo. 12:26:34 this is not an infinite loop, but it's easy to get stuck in one if your evaluation order is wonky 12:27:27 (in Unlambda, ``ki```sii``sii: wow, this may be a case where the Unlambda is easier to read than the lambda calculus version…) 12:27:58 -!- kpspalaiologos has joined. 12:28:04 confluence just means that if there are reductions s ->* t and s ->* u from a term s then there are further reductions to a common term v: t ->* v and u ->* v 12:28:05 actually it's non-obvious to me how you define confluence in a language which has infinite loops 12:28:23 confluence doesn't rely on normal forms in any form or shape 12:28:26 -!- kpspalaiologos has quit (Client Quit). 12:28:59 this is may-equivalence, right? i.e. if there's at least one reduction from s to t, and at least one from s to u, there's at least one from t to v and at least one from u to v 12:29:23 sure, reduction is non-deterministic. 12:29:30 the issue with may-equivalence is that although it's mathematically neat, very few languages work that way in practice (i.e. by effectively iterating through all possible evaluation orders) 12:30:36 Well, if their underlying model is confluent, they kind of don't have to... 12:30:43 int-e: perhaps they're malbolge instructions ← those go backwards in asciibetical order, not forwards, also they're pretty easy to compress by normalizing and then compressing that 12:31:23 ais523_: You usually don't care about confluence either. You care about related properties like uniqueness of normal forms (a ->* b and a ->* c with b and c in normal form implies b = c (modulo alpha, probably)) 12:31:44 Well, if their underlying model is confluent, they kind of don't have to... ← the whole issue is that the implementations have a tendency to get stuck in a loop that the language semantics can break them out of, but the choices of the interpreter don't let them 12:32:45 perhaps you could use an entirely random evaluation order to prevent ever getting stuck in a local minimum, but I suspect that would lead to memory leaks and the like that would mean that a self-interpreter would necessarily fail on some programs 12:33:21 ais523_: it did go backwards, and compression was quite good really... from 30MB to 1MB with xz isn't shabby at all (interestingly preprocessing made no difference at all). 12:34:20 any compression algo that can work on digraphs will, when applied to Malbolge code, quickly realise that any particular character can only ever be followed by one of eight other characters 12:34:39 so it'll effectively end up operating on a normalized-ish form anyway 12:38:04 ais523_: I still expected a larger difference than a couple of hundred bytes (or maybe it was 1k). But I've deleted the file. 12:38:17 ...so a Malbolge program of length n has at most 3n + O(1) bits of information? 12:38:31 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:38:41 assuming you don't exploit the bug in the parser that lets you sneak arbitrary data at the end of the code, yes 12:38:55 it's actually 3n bits exactly, no O(1) needed 12:39:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:39:15 Ah, I wasn't sure if you were restricted which character you could start with or not 12:39:26 (the O(1) shows up in practical compression algorithms because that's how much space they need to figure out/record the rules of Malbolge) 12:41:11 incidentally, one day I decided to make a Stack Overflow account and answer a couple of Malbolge questions 12:41:20 there aren't very many, though 12:41:48 ais523_: Anyway, back to the previous topic, a rewriting concept that connects lambda calculus to implementations is that of a strategy -- which carves out a deterministic relation from the non-deterministic reduction ->. A strategy can be normalizing--meaning that if t has a normal form wrt. ->, then following the strategy will reduce to that normal form as well. There are even concepts like... 12:41:54 ..."hyper-normalizing" where you can mix the strategy with the free rewriting relation -> and the normal form is guaranteed to be reached as long as you always eventually apply the strategy (as long as you haven't reached a normal form). This justifies compiler optimizations based on partial evaluation, that is, beta-steps on parts of a program. 12:42:29 leftmost-outermost reduction is normalizing and unless I'm very much mistaken, hyper-normalizing. 12:43:20 the ideal strategy for me would be normalizing in an even stronger sense: given two equivalent programs, applying the strategy to both would eventually reach the same form for both, and they would not thereafter diverge 12:43:26 however, I believe that's impossible due to Rice's theorem 12:43:47 (or more directly the halting problem) 12:44:53 something less strong than that, which might be achievable: a self-interpreter which, given any program's source code, eventually optimizes/specialises itself into an internal state that could have been reached by running the program directly 12:44:57 Right, you would be able to decide whether a lambda term reduces to I. 12:45:37 I think the self-interpreter could maybe be made to work using a "compile then execute" strategy 12:50:23 you could do it in an Underload-like language which had some reasonable form of input, I think, simply by using * and a and friends to construct a program using composition and quoting, and then finally evaluating the constructed program as the last thing it did 12:51:05 trying to do it without metacircularity would be much harder, though 12:51:46 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: quit). 12:54:20 int-2: When you program in a functional programming language but you treat it like a rewriting language (like what Haskell calls "equational reasoning"), I think that thinking about whether your functions terminate is closely related to thinking about confluence. 12:54:42 (That was addressed to int-e, obviously) 12:56:29 cpressey: not sure I agree 12:58:24 Well, perhaps not. I've been meaning to try programming more in languages actually built around rewriting (Pure and Maude particularly) to refine that idea. 12:59:08 hmm Pure (I've heard of Maude) 12:59:51 Which is actually why I was looking up This=That on the esowiki... I thought it was a fairly simple "equational rewriting" language. But, apparently I misremembed. 13:02:47 the rewriting based formalism I've actually used intensively is the simplifier in Isabelle/HOL. 13:03:23 (but that's not meant to be a programming language) 13:06:26 Pure looks cute at a glance, actually. 13:07:18 (Maude otoh looked intimidating when I tried to figure out what it is and I still don't really know what it is, except something yadda yadda rewriting blah) 13:08:20 By which I mean to say that I got scared away, but I don't know whether I'm actually justified in being scared. 13:21:54 I first saw Maude about a decade ago, was very interested but never actually wrote anything in it, and only recently realized it is the way it is because it comes from a tradition of algebraic semantics, which is rather obscure. 13:23:10 Operational semantics, denotational semantics, and axiomatic semantics walk into a bar... 13:23:54 Is that an actual joke. 13:24:03 Not yet it isn't. 13:24:09 Maybe someday. 13:24:15 go make it one 13:25:02 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asdfugil * New user account 13:25:25 are there semantics that deal with endless loops in a meaningful way? 13:26:21 myname: Pure semantics: use bottoms. For impure languages you can produce a stream of observations. 13:27:16 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66445&oldid=66408 * Asdfugil * (+152) /* Introductions */ 13:27:31 (In a way, pure languages are those languages where infinite loops have no meaning.) 13:29:02 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66446&oldid=66445 * Asdfugil * (+60) 13:29:57 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66447&oldid=66446 * Asdfugil * (+15) 13:33:14 I'll also mention Büchi automata (automata that expect an infinite number of inputs) and temporal logic (for stating theorems like "if we start in state S we will always eventually come back to state S") 13:35:52 cpressey: oh wow, https://github.com/agraef/pure-lang/wiki/Rewriting#further-information has a whole list of other languages 13:36:52 (And the two standard textbooks on term rewriting. Yay. I feel right at home.) 13:38:18 \o/ 13:40:44 I've read Baader & Nipkow (a long time ago), not Terese though. 13:41:49 Terese is more of a handbook than a textbook anyway. 13:42:24 (So it makes more sense to study a chapter than to study the whole book.) 13:50:19 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Quit). 13:50:49 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:52:05 Hello 13:57:51 hi kspalaiologos 14:07:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:16:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:56:56 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 14:58:49 one of my wisdoms spawned a discussion about algebra? this is new 14:59:21 `? 14:59:22 ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:59:30 `wisdom 14:59:31 ​photograph//A photograph is a device for creating photograms. 15:02:06 " int-e: well you can have a string-rewriting system with a deterministic rule for where to replace" => such as sed or 1.1 15:13:10 I didn't realise extending logical cells for brainfuck had such impact 15:13:27 ? 15:13:33 can you recommend me decently fast Brainfuck interpreters that I can incorporate into my project? 15:13:46 I'm looking mostly for MIT and Apache2 stuff because GPLv3 virus seems risky, lol 15:14:19 uh, those aren't usually hard to write fast 15:14:19 myname, I've made a tool to extend logical cell size for Brainfuck basically 15:14:33 what do you mean by logical cell size 15:14:46 so basically 15:14:51 two cells are treated logically as one 15:14:59 but physically, they are two separate cells 15:15:07 why though 15:15:14 to get bigger range on numbers that can be stored 15:15:33 So, given a Brainfuck program that requires 16 bit cells, you can transform it to a program which requires 8 bit cells? 15:15:35 " are there semantics that deal with endless loops in a meaningful way?" => see https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0) , which deals with infinite loops, but not really endless ones (except by making them end) 15:15:37 well, depending on your interpreter, numbers can be arbitrarily big 15:15:41 Taneb, yes. 15:15:50 myname, it depends on the interpreter, so its not portable 15:16:12 It can deal with infinite loops of any loop count though 15:16:16 if host interpreter uses 16-bit cells you can detect it 15:16:19 and pass the correct code 15:17:06 Of course that makes it not implementable on a computer, but real computers can't even deal with sequential loops of length 2**64 or distributed parallel loops of length 2**256, so that's to be expected 15:18:15 i'd say: just write an interpreter in your favourite language of sufficiently low level 15:20:33 kspalaiologos: fwiw, a github search for "fastest brainfuck interpreter" yielded this: https://github.com/barracks510/bfc 15:20:44 (Apache-2.0 license) 15:21:30 i guess most performance issues come from the data structure used for the tape 15:21:54 nah, if it's advertised as "fastest" on the web then it likely isn't 15:22:18 an array is nice if you don't have to grow it too often, a linked list might be slower on shorter programs 15:23:03 no just in time compilation -> garbage 15:23:11 I've tried Tritium interpreter by rdebath(?) 15:23:23 and it just turned out to be slower than mine moderately-optimizing one 15:24:31 just in time compilation for brainfuck? really? 15:24:49 i wouldn't be surprised if nobody ever did that 15:25:46 i mean, we used to write a small interpreter for brainfuck at university and even the stupid solutions did anything i throw on them pretty much instantenious 15:26:08 https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck/tree/master/tritium 15:26:12 just in time compilation 15:26:16 DYNASM 15:26:19 GMP 15:26:23 nasm target 15:26:26 gnu lightning, openssl 15:26:41 libtcc backend 15:26:49 debugging, profiling and tracing 15:27:04 I've personally discovered this interpreter when I needed something fast for my C compiler targeting brainfuck 15:27:14 but it turned out to be too slow to meet my requirements 15:27:50 even myself I've made a Brainfuck just-in-time compiler, it's not that uncommon thing 15:28:11 the C output is very high grade in my opinion 15:52:02 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:59:15 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 16:03:20 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:21:07 -!- joast has joined. 16:29:05 [[Noodle Soup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66448&oldid=36043 * Dtuser1337 * (-12) /* Print 1 2 3 4 5 */ 16:29:32 [[Noodle Soup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66449&oldid=66448 * Dtuser1337 * (-1) /* Hello World */ 16:32:56 -!- imode has joined. 16:45:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:49:30 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:51:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:53:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:56:53 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:18:18 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 18:19:38 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 18:22:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:48:13 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:53:57 -!- xkapastel has joined. 19:51:17 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:56:45 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:06:44 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:09:37 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 20:33:40 [[User:Sideshowbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66450&oldid=64689 * Sideshowbob * (+50) /* Works in progress */ 20:52:53 I have downloaded the most recent Magic: the Gathering rules. 20:53:21 (I should perhaps convert all of them to the same canonical ASCII format, so that they can then be compared properly.) 21:03:59 zzo38: I convert them to utf-8. 21:04:06 without carriage returns 21:04:39 `cat share/mtg/rules.txt 21:04:39 ​Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of October 4, 2019. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is the ultimate authority for Magic: The Gathering® competitive game play. It consists of a series of numbered rules followed by a glossary. Many of the numbered rules are divided into subrules, and each separate rule and subrule of the game has its own number. (Note that subrules skip the letters “l” and “o” du 21:04:51 ``` grep -w Noble share/mtg/rules.txt 21:04:52 205.3m Creatures and tribals share their lists of subtypes; these subtypes are called creature types. The creature types are Advisor, Aetherborn, Ally, Angel, Antelope, Ape, Archer, Archon, Army, Artificer, Assassin, Assembly-Worker, Atog, Aurochs, Avatar, Azra, Badger, Barbarian, Basilisk, Bat, Bear, Beast, Beeble, Berserker, Bird, Blinkmoth, Boar, Bringer, Brushwagg, Camarid, Camel, Caribou, Carrier, Cat, Centaur, Cephalid, Chimera, Citizen, Cleric, Cock 21:04:59 `doag share/mtg/rules.txt 21:05:01 11957:2019-10-01 ` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\r rules.txt \ 11956:2019-10-01 ` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\\\\\r rules.txt \ 11833:2019-06-13 `` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\\\r rules.txt \ 11701:2019-01-26 `` set -e; cd share/mtg; iconv -f cp850 -t utf-8 MagicCompRules_20190125.txt | tr -d \\\\r > rules 21:05:24 `doag share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt 21:05:26 11955:2019-10-01 fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20191004.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020191004.txt 21:05:44 Is there a reason not to do that in the channel? 21:06:54 shachaf: I did that in the channel 21:07:04 as far as I recall 21:07:33 Oh, you did. 21:07:44 Never mind. 21:42:46 I prefer ASCII without carriage returns; it would help when there was one with PC character set once, it will ensure all of the quotation marks match 21:46:21 But how will you return the carriage without carriage returns? 21:47:39 manually 21:47:43 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 21:47:46 If send to a printer then the carriage return will be added to return the carriage. 21:48:07 (I’ll show myself out, it’s just the right time) 21:51:38 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:52:50 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:54:02 shachaf: we convert the file before sending it to the printer. 21:54:39 also, we don't print the comp rules. it would be a waste. it changes like five times a year and it's a hundred pages long. 21:56:29 wait wait 21:57:51 Print only the pages that are changed. 21:57:55 zzo38: Throne of Eldraine has a sorcery card with rules text including "Then those creatures fight each other." Does that effectively mean that they fight twice, as in the first creature fights the second than the second fights the first, fight being commutative? 21:58:42 I think just once. 21:59:01 the wording is odd 21:59:11 "701.12a. A spell or ability may instruct a creature to fight another creature or it may instruct two creatures to fight each other. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature." 21:59:32 hmm 21:59:35 Yes, I agree the wording is odd, but rule 701.12a seems so say that it is just once even if it says "each other" 21:59:47 ``` grep -Ei "fight each other" share/mtg/rules.txt 21:59:48 701.12a A spell or ability may instruct a creature to fight another creature or it may instruct two creatures to fight each other. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature. 22:00:00 I wasn't aware of the alternate template 22:00:04 perhaps because it's a red thing 22:00:22 let me do a card search 22:01:01 yeah, looks like a red thing 22:04:03 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:58:13 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:06:43 -!- FreeFull has quit. 23:29:28 I thought of if I make the new TeXnicard, to make a format for sending changes to the database, with Unusenet, so that you can do collaboration if wanted. 23:38:36 (You could just as well transfer the change files by email or on a floppy disk or paste bin, too, if wanted) 23:57:59 -!- imode has joined. 2019-10-03: 00:10:25 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 00:38:54 -!- manjaroLXDE has joined. 01:03:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:11:24 [[Mice in a maze]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66451&oldid=66373 * TwilightSparkle * (+0) Minor thing 01:44:32 @tell kspalaiologos https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck/tree/master/tritium <-- rdebath is definitely the guy in the community to ask about BF interpreter comparison 01:44:33 Consider it noted. 01:45:53 wait, too slow? i'm shocked 02:02:19 . o O ( "didn't manage to reconstruct original C code from compiled code" ) 02:02:23 morning 02:11:18 morning 02:12:07 ohayō 02:22:07 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:34:43 -!- imode has joined. 03:04:06 [[CopyPasta Language/implementation.rb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66452 * Conor O'Brien * (+1824) Created page with "An implementation of [[CopyPasta Language]] written in Ruby by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. == Implementation (copypasta.rb) == def fatal_error(error, code=1) S..." 03:04:33 [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66453&oldid=54392 * Conor O'Brien * (+62) /* Languages I have implemented */ 03:05:26 [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66454&oldid=65573 * Conor O'Brien * (+85) 03:10:32 -!- manjaroLXDE has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:31:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:34:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:36:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:58:34 -!- adu has joined. 04:16:15 -!- imode has joined. 04:20:34 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:31:56 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:49:58 I wanted a way to speed up my interpreter to avoid making scans everywhere. so, I'm sketching out something that takes two files: the code you want to run, and an optional compiled jump table. 04:50:32 the compiler for this jump table just analyzes the source and keeps track of where matching brackets are for any loops and breaks within those loops. 04:50:37 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:50:58 "if you are at address X, jump to address Y if you are any kind of control flow operation." 04:51:14 this is substituted in for the traditional bracket/scan based approach. 04:51:29 you can also form this kind of jump table on the fly via caching. 04:53:41 what's also nice is that you can essentially define segmented executables with this. if the interpreter tries to run a commented section, for example, you can just say "at this instruction (start of a comment), jump to the end of a comment." 04:59:27 the base command set (which is [,.:;$+-=<~&?01]) can fit inside of a 4-bit value. 04:59:51 which is great. code can remain ultra-compact while remaining fast. 05:04:39 the 'or' operator can be defined as :$&$~$\$$\$:$&$~$&$~$ 05:04:57 ,$1,$ :$&$~$ \$$\$ :$&$~$ &$~$ yields "1". 05:05:25 what lang is this? 05:05:32 my own. named Mode. 05:05:53 imode. mode. ode. de. e. . 05:06:01 an ode to mode by imode. 05:06:48 just have to deal with Apple if this ever becomes a success 05:07:11 apple has a language called Mode? 05:07:17 (also here's an interpreter: https://hatebin.com/qolqoghzzf) 05:07:43 imode: I meant the 'i'. 05:07:57 haaah. 05:08:47 the iMode, an enterprise-scale language. the implementation only runs on an aluminium cube, which is shipped to you in a puzzle case. 05:09:08 here's what hello world looks like: ,$1001000,$1100101\$$\$,$1101100\$$\$,$1101100\$$\$,$1101111\$$\$,$101100\$$\$,$100000\$$\$,$1110111\$$\$,$1101111\$$\$,$1110010\$$\$,$1101100\$$\$,$1100100\$$\$,$100001\$$\$,,:$[':$].. 05:12:36 provided you add ' as an action. 05:14:58 on to bed. cheers. 05:19:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:49:47 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 05:57:59 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:34:51 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:07:24 -!- b_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:08:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:30:35 [[Toi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66455&oldid=66193 * Kritixilithos * (+220) added my interpreter 08:59:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:59:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:15:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:18:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:28:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:33:47 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 09:34:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:34:30 I've been improving the Brainfuck assembly later 09:34:51 *earlier 09:35:20 Added an arithmetic rotation (left and right) 09:35:44 And logicizing values (x>1 x=1, x=0 x=0) 09:36:23 Have you got any nice ideas to implement? 09:36:48 I'm already working on getting the dynamic registers out of beta 10:13:10 the main idea for brainfuck is to have as few commands as possible 10:36:21 I'm talking about my assembly targeting train duck 10:36:27 F*ck autocorrect 10:36:30 Meant brainfuck 11:04:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:19:54 -!- patologios has joined. 12:20:06 hi 12:23:42 javascript 12:23:54 The best esoteric language 12:25:39 kspalaiologos hi javascripter 12:25:59 JS 12:26:03 über alles 12:26:40 JSJSJSJSJSJSJSJSJSJSJSJS 12:27:02 JS JS JS JS 12:27:25 JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:28 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:31 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:35 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:39 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:43 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:47 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:51 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:27:56 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:01 JEBAĆ SZEWCZYKS 12:28:07 JEBAĆ SZEWCZYKA XD 12:28:18 TYLKO REACT.JS 12:28:33 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 12:28:36 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:40 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:44 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:47 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:51 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:54 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:28:58 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:03 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:08 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:12 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:23 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:24 K 12:29:27 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:30 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:34 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:37 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:29:45 JEBAĆ SZEWCZYKA JEBAĆ SZEWCZYKA 12:29:50 JEBAĆ BRAINFUCK 12:29:56 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 12:29:59 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:30:10 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 12:30:11 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:30:15 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 12:30:17 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:30:22 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 12:30:23 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 12:30:27 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 12:31:31 -!- patologios has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 13:04:50 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:17:39 ok 13:18:57 `? fungot 13:18:57 int-e: it's not quite that either. you can ignore that if you haven't 13:18:58 fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. 13:19:17 `thanks fungot 13:19:17 int-e: it's only hard because there are just different syntax from what i understand 13:19:17 Thanks, fungot. Thungot. 13:41:27 What in the name of god 13:41:40 How did this abomination join irc 13:42:03 There are so many haters stalking me 13:42:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:56:38 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:07:21 kspalaiologos: Hmm, have you spoken out against ECMAScript in the past? 14:18:21 Yes 14:18:33 I'm a very controversive person 14:20:58 I have pooped on ECMAScript in every possible way by now. 14:25:28 -!- patologios has joined. 14:25:33 Patologios! 14:25:46 kspalaiologos: geju 14:26:15 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:26:26 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:26:34 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:26:38 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:26:43 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:26:45 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:26:50 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:26:56 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:27:00 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:27:03 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:27:07 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:27:09 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:27:12 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:29:54 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:31:35 kspalaiologos: we all know you are a skid 14:31:47 ur editor is a copy paste 14:31:55 patologios: what editor? 14:32:03 kspalaiologos: javascripter 14:32:07 patologios: also your spam affects more than him :) 14:32:11 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:32:19 JAVASCRIPT ÜBER ALLES OWO 14:32:22 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:32:24 lf94: even those who ignore patologios, apparently :-( 14:32:43 are they a bot or?... 14:32:54 use more 14:32:59 use node.js lol 14:33:06 brainfuck sucks 14:33:20 and Szewczyk has big gay 14:33:20 it isn't great, yeah. 14:33:24 who knows or cares... at least until one of our ops intervenes. 14:33:37 /ignored I guess :p 14:33:38 How do I use IRC 14:33:52 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:34:19 Wow, weechat ignore system is pretty good 14:34:26 Szewczyk się gejuje z Orłowem 14:34:31 @everyone 14:34:31 Unknown command, try @list 14:34:38 @list 14:34:38 What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. 14:34:44 @listmodules 14:34:44 activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search 14:34:44 slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where 14:34:50 @elite 14:34:50 Say again? 14:34:53 @more 14:34:57 n> hello 14:34:59 @poll gay gay gay 14:34:59 Maybe you meant: poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show roll 14:35:08 @karma 14:35:08 You have a karma of 0 14:35:11 :< 14:35:13 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:35:37 PEDZIOLOGIOS BRAINFUCK DEVELOPMENT 14:35:44 WIDZICIE TO KURWA? XD 14:35:47 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:36:26 KRZYSZTOF PATOLOGIOS SZEWCZYK CHUUUUUUUUUUUUJUUUUUUUUUUUUU 14:36:57 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:37:01 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:37:03 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:37:06 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:37:10 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:37:13 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:37:15 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:37:35 I WILL HACK YOU 14:37:42 HACKING IN PROGRESS 14:37:44 0% 14:37:47 1% 14:37:49 2% 14:37:51 3% 14:37:53 4% 14:37:56 5% 14:37:59 6% 14:38:01 7% 14:38:02 8% 14:38:04 9% 14:38:07 10% 14:38:28 ERROR: SZEWCZYKOWI MÓZG ROZJEBALO XD 14:39:48 HE HAVE NO BRAIN 14:39:52 HE HAVE BRAINLET 14:39:55 XDDDDDDDDD 14:40:00 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:41:26 PESTYCYDY 14:41:30 PESTYCYDY 14:41:32 AUUUUUUUUUUU 14:41:35 AUUUU AUUUU 14:42:09 kspalaiologos: kochanie odezwij się 14:42:12 misiaczku 14:42:14 kotku 14:42:22 KURWO I SZMATO XD 14:42:26 JOT ES JOT ES 14:42:30 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:42:33 AUUUUUUUUUUU 14:42:38 AUUUU AUUUU 14:45:26 nigger 14:48:34 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:48:36 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:48:38 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:48:40 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:48:42 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:48:44 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:48:54 Eh 14:48:55 XDDDDD 14:49:03 My editor is an improved version of kilo 14:49:04 O CZEŚĆ SZEWCZYK 14:49:09 TĘSKNIŁEM ZA TOBĄ 14:49:11 KOTKU 14:49:14 I have stated it even in the readme 14:49:26 KIEDY ZACZNIESZ PISAC W JS 14:49:29 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:49:36 Omfg 14:49:46 PIERDOL BRAINFUCKA 14:49:49 BIERZ VUE 14:49:54 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:49:57 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:50:00 NPM INSTALL IS-ODD 14:50:02 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:50:09 Ops please do something 14:50:24 CO TY MI SIĘ TAK TU SPINASZ KOCHANIE 14:50:30 SZEWCZYK CHUUUUUUUUUUUUJUUUUUUUUUUUUU 14:50:37 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:50:41 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:50:43 ... children these days 14:50:43 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:50:45 My crappy irc client is unable to ignore someone ehhhh 14:50:47 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:50:49 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:50:54 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:50:56 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:50:59 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:51:00 Time to get a better IRC client then. :) 14:51:03 Oh cmon my logs repo is going to fill with that shit 14:51:08 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:51:13 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:51:17 int-e, i'm on mobile rn 14:51:18 NOSZ KURWA 14:51:26 KRZYSIU 14:51:31 I'm using xchat on main PC 14:51:35 DLACZEGO JESZCZE NIE PISZESZ W JS KURWA 14:51:54 JEBAĆ ZBA 14:51:57 JEBAĆ ZBA 14:51:59 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:52:10 JAVASCRIPT 14:52:13 Über alles 14:52:16 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:52:18 JAVASCRIPT 14:52:21 ÜBER 3 14:52:25 ÜBER ALLES 14:52:28 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:52:32 JAVASCRIPT ÜBER ALLES 14:52:49 Irc was meant to be a chat for intellectuals 14:52:54 C'mon 14:52:57 POZDRAWIAJĄ NASTOLETNI.PL 14:53:13 JAVASCRIPT TO JĘZYK DLA INTELEKTUALISTÓW 14:53:21 BRAINFUCK JEST DLA DEBILI XD 14:53:29 PO CHUJ JA TU SIEDZĘ? 14:53:30 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:53:36 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:54:59 C TO CZYSTY HOMOSEKSUALIZM 14:55:05 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:55:10 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 14:55:11 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:55:24 BRAINFUCK TO CIOTA I CHUUUJ 14:55:26 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 14:55:36 kspalaiologos: kotku 14:55:43 Odezwij się 14:56:51 :( 14:56:59 zasmuciłes mnie 14:57:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:57:22 a chciałem iść z tobą do łóżka 14:57:25 patologios: please don't spam the channel 14:57:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523. 14:57:35 I don't spam anything lol 14:57:42 yes you do 14:57:54 what is spam 14:58:03 -!- atslash has joined. 14:58:04 Go spam ##C or #programming instead 14:58:09 but kspalaiologos: is gay 14:58:11 These welcome guys will teach you 14:59:00 Anonimity of irc is a bless and a plague 14:59:14 In the same time, of course 15:03:50 "mixed blessing" is the term 15:06:25 kspalaiologos: dodaj mnie na ZBA chuju 15:07:00 czemu mnie wyjebales 15:08:58 patologios: this channel's meant to be for discussion of esolangs, especially group discussion; that means that it's best for conversations to be a) ontopic and b) in a language that most of the channel will be able to understand 15:09:19 we're often tolerant of deviations from this for people who have made a lot of positive contributions, but as far as I can tell you haven't made any 15:18:16 -!- imode has joined. 15:18:42 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 15:18:57 ban him already. 15:19:53 why tolerate obvious spam. 15:26:50 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:27:38 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:32:48 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:33:30 -!- patologios has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 15:35:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:37:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:44:53 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523. 15:50:24 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 16:02:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 16:04:11 imode: If it works then this can avoid an endless struggle of banning and ban evasion. 16:06:14 * imode shrugs. 16:29:23 been thinking of a macro syntax to add as an interpreter extension. you could write {:} to store a segment of code you want to attach to an alias, and () to unpack that segment of code in-place. 16:29:38 multiple patterns can be chained together as spaces. 16:29:56 so (foo bar baz) performs multiple insertions. 16:30:17 (foo)(bar)(baz) is also an option. more typing though. 16:45:38 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:46:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:00:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:12:36 @ask imode when you defined graph rewriting rules, did you meant we could glue vertices together (which could be written as V1 = V2 in LHS for V1, V2 occurring in LHS)? 17:12:36 Consider it noted. 17:17:48 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 18:13:41 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:15:45 -!- imode has joined. 18:19:57 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:25:55 [[OOLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66456&oldid=51981 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* External resources */ 18:31:01 -!- sprocklem has joined. 18:32:20 [[OOLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66457&oldid=66456 * Dtuser1337 * (+2) /* It's turing complete? */ 18:44:22 [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66458&oldid=53116 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Implementations */ replacing the link with the archived version 19:16:05 `echo o1lQfIMraSsc 19:16:06 o1lQfIMraSsc 19:20:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:21:33 I've added arithmetic shifts to my brainfuck assembly 19:21:42 reversal of two top elements from the stack 19:21:57 to logic value conversion 19:22:03 pretty useful stuff imo 19:22:35 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:42:56 imode: just preprocess your source with https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor) . You can change the special characters that it uses if you prefer curly braces to mark a macro call. 19:46:31 link cut itself 19:47:10 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:54:28 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:30:15 well, the macro system works. 20:30:50 https://hatebin.com/lkszlrodkq 20:31:35 arseniiv: w.r.t graph rewriting you asked about earlier, it was more based around edge rewriting rather than vertex gluing. 20:33:22 imode: I just thought vertex gluing is a natural addition to that 20:33:54 more natural than vertex splitting (I don’t thing there could be the only one natural way to do so) 20:37:14 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:38:22 I should fix the macro system to handle nested macro defs. 20:52:10 oh you can have a macro definition in another definition’s body? 20:52:19 that was the intention, yeah. 20:52:42 hm macro switches..? 20:53:33 ah never mind I wanted to say “conditional macros” 20:55:43 -!- atslash has joined. 20:57:31 yeah you can define macros and apply them at runtime. there is an initial pass, though. 20:58:02 mainly so you can write things like (begin) ... (while) ... (repeat) without going into an infinite loop. 20:58:17 because (while) will resolve to a conditional check. 20:58:30 and will roll until it hits a ']'. 20:58:43 but since it doesn't encounter one.. it'll continue on forever. 21:13:34 the macro expander supports recusive macro expansion pretty easily. all it does is check for macro expansions (anything between '(' and ')'), and if it encounters a macro definition, it just jumps to the matching ')', saving all chars in between. 21:13:54 if it doesn't encounter a macro definition, it expands in-place and seeks to the beginning of the expanded macro. 21:14:36 it's why (0:,$)(1:,$1)(begin:(1)[)(while:?)(repeat:(1)])(begin)(0)(while)(1)(repeat) works. 21:14:54 and reduces to ,$1[,$?,$1,$1] 21:18:02 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:19:43 another method (which may seem a little better) is to split the whole source into tokens, and inspect each token to see if it's the start of a definition, an existing definition, or a chunk of code. 21:19:49 but eh. 21:20:09 this thing is already 243 lines. 21:20:26 now to figure out how to do if/else chains... 21:28:03 imode: just use an existing preprocessor that is already known to be able to do any computation and is hard to use in an esoteric way, like SIMPLE 21:28:19 don't reinvent the wheel 21:29:02 how about no. 21:29:06 mine works fine. 21:33:38 -!- atslash has joined. 21:49:19 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 21:54:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:02:26 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:02:57 -!- atslash has joined. 22:06:48 -!- FreeFull has quit. 22:33:13 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:35:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:44:26 -!- MDude has joined. 22:47:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:49:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:49:24 -!- imode has joined. 23:03:04 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:04:08 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:22:36 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:23:12 -!- atslash has joined. 23:31:17 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:36:17 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:36:31 -!- atslash has joined. 23:37:12 https://hastebin.com/oruziketal.txt 23:37:15 primitives work. 23:37:25 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:37:28 honestly I'm about ready to go to a token-based preprocessor. 23:38:04 it requires a little more work. but it might be better...? 2019-10-04: 00:10:50 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:32:04 -!- imode has joined. 00:38:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:59:38 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:02:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:03:20 -!- imode has joined. 01:07:20 kevyn's learning fast 01:16:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:19:28 looking at the logs, i sense an int-e shaped gap in our op timezone coverage. 01:20:44 * pikhq believes we should just mandate that ops are drugged enough to be up 24/7 01:21:28 hm all freenode staff are also minor ops here 01:21:32 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 01:21:59 -!- sftp has joined. 01:26:54 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:27:07 -!- MDude has joined. 01:27:20 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:27:58 -!- atslash has joined. 01:30:02 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:30:27 -!- howlands has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:31:15 -!- howlands has joined. 01:31:45 -!- sftp has joined. 01:49:14 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:24:59 -!- imode has joined. 03:31:21 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:32:28 -!- atslash has joined. 05:22:31 -!- Cale has joined. 05:26:58 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:50:31 -!- Cale has joined. 06:35:16 -!- nodejsfan has joined. 06:36:35 Hi, my name is Krzysztof Szewczyk and I'm a node.js programmer new into esoteric language programming 06:36:40 where do I start? 06:37:22 that's a good question 06:37:43 npm install is-odd 06:37:49 most esoteric thing 06:37:49 the first I heard about esolangs was via the ioccc 06:37:53 o 06:38:00 lemme Google 06:38:23 international obfuscated c code competition or something like that 06:39:30 shortly after that, there were a couple people who were competitive in code golf, so I learned about a couple of those languages, and started browsing the wiki 06:40:00 nodejsfan: welcome back, but you're still off topic. 06:40:02 my favorite language specification is INTERCAL's 06:40:13 -!- tromp has joined. 06:40:24 `relcome nodejsfan 06:40:26 ​nodejsfan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 06:40:37 if you understand INTERCAL's specs, you will go far 06:40:39 oj god 06:41:50 I mean, the reasoning behind the specs 06:43:04 for a non-standard value of "reason" 06:43:16 "let's make this weird" 06:44:59 this is the right verson of the manual: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~asb/teaching/cs415-fall05/docs/intercal.pdf 06:46:15 it was hard for me to find it... it is a legendary document which should be on the wiki 06:46:36 hmm, not sure I have an account 06:47:31 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:47:50 Hooloovo0: we can't put that on the wiki 06:48:06 why not? 06:48:47 Because for the wiki, "Content is available under CC0 public domain dedication." 06:49:16 there should at least be a link to it 06:49:25 A link is fine of course. 06:49:36 Sorry if that's what you meant. 06:52:15 to me, that's the most iconic document describing what intercal means 06:52:43 like, you can give a technical language description, but esr's doesn't have the circuitous diagram 06:57:42 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hooloovo0 * New user account 07:00:08 huh, apparently I already have an account under Hooloovoo :/ not sure if I made any edits with it 07:00:37 I mean, I think it was me who was hanging around the IRC channel for way too long before making an accoung 07:00:45 account even 07:05:42 no edits other than the introduction 07:06:48 -!- nodejsfan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:07:13 yeah, not sure what happened 07:21:11 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66459&oldid=66447 * Hooloovo0 * (+214) 07:21:29 [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66460&oldid=57489 * Hooloovo0 * (+186) 07:22:37 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:36:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:01:18 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:01:27 Hi 08:02:03 I'm thinking about floating point Brainfuck emulation 08:02:20 Do you have any simple to implement ideas? 08:02:32 IEEE will take up a lot of space 08:02:45 So I need something simple, but full featured 08:03:04 Addition and subtraction that is 08:03:49 I'd like to store it in possibly two digit format 08:03:55 (cells) 08:04:20 Where first cell represents data after the point, and the second represents data before the point 08:04:47 Yet, won't the operations take insane amount of time? 08:36:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:38:36 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:40:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:51:58 you could do 3 bit floats 09:03:01 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 09:03:04 hey 09:03:52 JS ÜBER ALLES 09:04:13 JS ÜBER ALLES 09:04:20 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:22 NAK 09:04:22 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:24 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:26 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:27 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:29 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:31 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:33 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:34 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:04:38 js ist nicht so geil 09:04:39 kspalaiologos: you forgot to switch account before spamming 09:05:06 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:05:16 oof 09:05:19 exposed 09:05:21 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:05:39 i don't get spammers 09:05:41 sorry für the spam 09:05:47 but i sure as hell love my anti spam script 09:06:04 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:06:08 It's awesome 09:06:59 TS > JS 09:07:01 TS > JS 09:07:08 FLASH UBER ALLES 09:07:37 EVERYTHING SHOULD BE WRITTEN USING C 09:07:39 FUCK JAVASCRIPT 09:07:46 I LIED 09:07:53 DELETE JAVASCRIPT 09:07:59 FUCK BRENDAN EICH 09:08:06 HE'S SUCH A NIG GER 09:08:13 AND FACIST 09:08:16 AND NAZI 09:08:34 EVERY SITE SHOULD BE CREATED USING ADOBE FLASH 09:08:41 AND BE COMPATIBLE WITH INTERNET EXPLORER 09:08:58 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 09:09:12 HEIL ADOBE FLASH 09:09:14 HEIL ADOBE FLASH 09:09:15 HEIL ADOBE FLASH 09:09:17 HEIL ADOBE FLASH 09:09:18 HEIL ADOBE FLASH 09:09:20 HEIL ADOBE FLASH 09:09:42 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:44 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:45 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:47 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:48 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:49 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:50 HEIL C, C++ SUCKS 09:09:53 JAVA 09:09:57 SCRIPT 09:09:58 IS 09:09:59 CIR 09:10:01 FOR 09:10:04 FAGGOTS! 09:10:13 FUUUUUUUUUCK JS 09:10:16 as is brainfuck 09:10:19 ADOBE FLASH ÜBER ALLES 09:10:22 NO 09:10:35 BRIANFUCK IS THE ONLY GOOD TECHNOLOGY FOR WEB APPS 09:10:37 LOL 09:11:07 My brainfuck compiler emits 30x faster code than V8 09:11:15 I know it might just lead to ban evasion, but I guess we might just need to do it. Even if the content is kind of just on the borderline of being relevant, the presentation is just too spammy. 09:11:22 JavaScript engines are god damn slow 09:12:25 fwiw I think what's happening here right now is a case of impersonation. 09:14:00 yes 09:14:27 Someone hacked my account 09:14:41 A nickname isn't really an "account". 09:15:54 int-e: why do you think so? 09:16:08 we might consider +R, but meh 09:16:24 myname: Probably because this new "kspalaiologos" has a different user@host mask, and hasn't registered to services, unlike the previous one. 09:16:44 ah, i missed a part then 09:17:03 int-e: Yeah, maybe they'll just get bored? I'd really rather not play this game. 09:21:09 kspalaiologos: not spam pls 09:21:17 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 09:21:37 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 09:22:18 I forgot my password 09:22:42 you forgot how to not be an idiot 09:24:35 https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf 09:24:48 god this thing is so awesome 09:25:14 For most of you it will take years to write something like that lol 09:25:39 I'm the best programmer in this world haha 09:26:01 what y'all doing 09:27:29 learning galois theory 09:28:30 o 09:28:32 nice 09:32:28 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 09:53:14 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 09:55:05 fizzie: and uses "~androidirc" as the user part of their hostmask just like the previous spammer. they forgot to change it to "kspalaiol". not that it would change much. 10:06:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:20:08 shame the real one’s stalked by such an obstinate person 10:21:24 arseniiv: look at it from the other way. this channel rarely has moderation problems other than me. 10:22:00 no one deserves such treatment, I think even if they killed many people 10:23:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 10:25:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:25:40 wib_jonas: do you think to have moderation problems is fun? :) eh. Maaaayyybe. In a low dosage, not that much, it just gets annoying instead and stays here due to hysteric^W hysteresis 10:26:04 no, I'm not saying that it's fun 10:26:42 I'm saying that, in general, it's good to participate in a channel that has a nice community and not much mod'ion problems, this is just a rare exception 10:26:52 hysteresis is a neat word and it’s connected with a beautiful picture of that fat S-like region 10:27:07 wib_jonas: ah, yes, I agree 10:27:57 not for me. I connect it with digital histeresis, with an analog input, binary output, and two thresholds for switching the output on and off. no S-like curve 10:28:38 (↑↑ and before this moment, I didn’t really think hysteria could have something in common with hysteresis) 10:31:24 I found out that in firefox and in windows file explorer, with the english localization, both control-L and alt-d focuses the address bar. (Previously I only knew about control-L, as well as the usual windows thing of cycling among focusable regions with F6.) This must be another of the fallouts of browsers imitating both MSIE and Netscape, like F5 10:31:24 versus control-R. 10:31:47 Do black holes suffer from mass hysteria? 10:33:11 wib_jonas: it would just be a digital S (hehehe bad pun day, it’s that bad it’s not even a pun in a strict sense, just a connection of polygonal chains with something machine-made, and in latter years, digital) _|¯ _|¯ _|¯ 10:34:13 int-e: that’s the real cause of Hawking radiation 10:35:04 arseniiv: nice! 10:38:03 :D 10:40:15 BTW had anyone some trouble to comprehend why on earth sigmoid is called that? I think all of Σ, σ and ς are further from that curve than a plain S 10:41:58 maybe final sigma ς suffices, but still S is more canonical, it does even have the same symmetry as sigmoid 10:45:34 arseniiv: it can be a latin S, but called "sigma" in a fancy way. you can use the phoenician-origin names for latin letters too, even if they're most commonly used with the greek or hebrew letters. 10:46:21 I mean, sometimes it's handy to have two sets, to make it easier to read formulas out loud and distinguish greek letters 10:49:50 hmm... maybe for esotericness, we could even use the unrelated name series that's normally used for futhark runes, or the series for tengwar letters 10:58:15 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:01:17 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:00:33 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 12:04:21 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:51:06 -!- diverger has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:04:14 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:07:17 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:15:29 esotericness, esotericity, esoterism, esoterié? 13:16:06 (totally out of my depth with diacritics on the last one, but it seems look nicer that way?..) 13:17:53 `? diacritics 13:17:53 diacritics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:17:55 `? diacritic 13:17:56 diacritic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:18:23 we call them "things on top of letters" 13:18:46 like, it’s a literal translation? 13:20:58 `? A 13:20:59 A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters. 13:21:24 `? wisdom/örjan 13:21:25 wisdom/örjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:21:34 `? örjan 13:21:35 ​Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. 13:22:21 wait shouldn’t that been ø 13:22:23 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:22:52 that one isn't diæresed. 13:22:57 `? ørjan 13:22:58 Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. 13:23:17 kspalaiologos: don’t facepalm logreading but that person stole your nickname and wrote things for a while 13:23:30 Crap 13:23:40 `? œrjan 13:23:41 ​œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. He got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. 13:23:43 I'll read this 13:23:48 Anyway 13:25:00 He got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. => seems like an Obélix allusion at the same times 13:25:24 time*, how did that s got there 13:27:28 Eh 13:27:43 Sure, I've got to be the one to be blamed 13:30:37 is there a simple mechanism to reserve the nickname somehow? besides password? (I don’t remember how long it is before one is kicked out when not entering it) 13:31:49 because if there’s none, it’ll be weird to blame you not being prepared for, erm, that shouldn’t even happen to anyone 13:32:11 BTW there are at least seven wisdom *rjans :o 13:33:03 arseniiv: there sort of is, but in this case it doesn't matter, a spammer could just use another similar nickname then 13:33:25 we can't reserve all or most nicknames since freenode supports nicks of length up to 15 13:35:06 -!- arseniiv has changed nick to arseniiv_. 13:35:08 hm but for example I bet you don’t trust much when someone writes from a similar nickname, if you notice the difference early on 13:35:11 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 13:35:21 ah! an impostor! 13:36:42 arseniiv: you mean like oren vs oerjan, or web_jonas vs wib_jonas, or HackEgo vs HackEso? 13:37:48 well, I do actually know oren is not a misspelling of oerjan :) and that HackEgo is an archaism 13:38:00 ``` set -e; cd wisdom; echo *rjan; cat owrjan 13:38:00 boorjan oerjan owrjan sewerjan typoerjan örjan ørjan œrjan אrjan \ owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. 13:38:28 an archaism? now that makes me feel old. 13:38:44 and I remember to not trust any of your prepended variants too much too :P 13:39:26 and of course, whoever reincarnates HackEso the next time may choose to call it HackEvo or HackEto or HackEdo or HackElo or HackEmo or HackEro etc 13:39:52 wib_jonas: we can work out which is the best with some sort of HackElo rating 13:40:10 it’s already suspicious you mentioned yourself here! I bet you are not you. And IP is all wrong, it should contain more 2’s 13:40:15 wib_jonas: ^ 13:40:25 `? orjan 13:40:26 orjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:41:19 Shalln't we make this server require registration 13:41:48 HackEto seems multilingually slavic, like “hack it/this” 13:42:11 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:43:40 ... 13:44:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:45:04 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:45:30 -!- diverger has joined. 13:46:20 I have messaged my underscored alter-eto by lambdabot and are still waiting when I’ll forget about that and ultimately read that and surprise myself 13:46:33 half a year ago by now, I think 13:47:17 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:47:40 that you get when you get too convoluted 13:52:15 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:00:55 -!- stux|away has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:02:08 -!- stux|away has joined. 14:19:04 -!- atslash has joined. 15:30:58 -!- imode has joined. 15:35:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:37:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:38:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:47:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:48:58 does anyone have a mac? 15:49:12 i need to run a super quick test with iterm2 and i have no access to it 15:50:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:51:42 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:45:47 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:53:54 Hello 16:58:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_extension#Generalizations wow you can do galois theory for arbitrary theories not just fields 16:58:25 what do you think abou this? 16:59:14 https://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.4340.pdf 17:01:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:04:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:10:47 please respond 17:13:38 no. 17:17:51 rain2: this looks like a neat thing! but alas almost out of my current interest 17:18:17 ok 17:18:22 what is your current interest 17:19:35 (cont.) interests* and also I don’t know an ordinary Galois theory and so I would be a bad conversalist :D 17:19:35 what is your current interest => hmm I don’t sure. I’m lazy :( 17:19:53 what is it 17:20:07 im learning galois theory 17:21:01 what I could grab with one hand outstretched from my current position, so for example hm it’s hard to externalize what I want, maybe I don’t want anything 17:21:56 I planned to read some things, though 17:22:03 OK! 17:22:34 two articles on algebraic effects and also I wanted to watch a course on Clifford algebras and I can’t proceed with it all effectively 17:23:13 last three days, I haven’t read a page from those, and I watched an intro of a completely different course, though by the same person 17:23:33 I’m that unorganized :D 17:23:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:24:31 ah also I re-listened to several old ATB albums to make several other things clear 17:24:48 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:25:15 bon_somethingnas! 17:25:53 hello 17:26:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:52:48 @messages-loud 17:52:48 LKoen said 2h 7m 26s ago: I'm definitely memorising "nychthemeron" for future use 17:53:23 this word doesn't have an equivalent in French, according to wikipedia 17:53:47 which is very surprising as mostly all "greek" english words are also french, although usually with a different last syllable 17:53:58 `? @messages-loud 17:53:59 ​@messages-loud @messages-fond / @messages-flood @messages-bond // @messages-lousy @messages-sound / @messages-lost @messages-found // @messages-proud @messages-bold / @messages-good @messages-gold 17:56:10 but somehow reassuring because "nychthemeron" sounds unsettlingly like a very bad French insult 18:33:06 LKoen : in swedish it's just "dygn", which was why i was disappointed with not finding an english equivalent, for a long while 18:33:28 I see 18:33:44 (and i think some other nordic languages, and also russian, has a word for it ?) 18:34:15 i remember having used "circadian cycle", for some time, but it's a bit awkward to say, and not completely accurate 18:35:55 anyhoo .. some months ago, my elder brother, who's a bit interested in calendars (having made many comparative tables and so, and e-mailed some experts, &c ..), mentioned the word to me, and i've been using it, ever since 18:36:14 [ 340%4 18:36:14 b_jonas: 85 18:43:37 `? * 18:43:38 Twinkle, twinkle, little star! 18:48:49 (and i think some other nordic languages, and also russian, has a word for it ?) => you mean, day and night, 24 hours? yeah, it has! Сутки (sutki), and I bet it’s not so formal as nychthemeron (it seems pretty uncommon). Though usually a word for “day” is used when it won’t make too much confusion, but I think this is the same for English too and I bet most languages. And is dygn not too formal in use, too? 18:53:10 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nychthemeron has mono-word translations into several other languages too, and it doesn’t have a mark how formal it is 18:54:37 strangely, ↓ 18:54:37 `? ☆ 18:54:38 Twinkle, twinkle, little star! 18:55:11 but ∗ ⋆ ★ don’t have entries 18:55:51 `? ✱ 18:55:52 ​✱? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:56:11 [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66461&oldid=66460 * Ais523 * (-186) Undo revision 66460 by [[Special:Contributions/Hooloovo0|Hooloovo0]] ([[User talk:Hooloovo0|talk]]): I agree it's a good manual, but it's also available from both of the links immediately above it, and we probably don't need to link to it three times 18:56:46 `? ✸ 18:56:46 ​✸? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:57:08 . o O ( `learn ☆★ Nychthemeron, also known as nightdayness ) 18:57:10 `? ✳ 18:57:11 ​✳? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:57:54 ``` unidecode ✱; quote "very heavy" 18:57:55 ​[U+2731 HEAVY ASTERISK] \ 1333) `unidecode ⧸🙼 ​[U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points 18:59:53 heavy asterisk is an asteroid 19:00:07 and certainly not a _little_ star 19:01:06 although I guess even little stars are very heavy 19:05:18 twinkle twinkle Ceres Pallas Juno Vesta Hebe Iris 19:07:19 hm I missed Astraea, didn’t heard about that one nor was it in the table 19:07:41 these are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and Astraea is 5 19:08:19 and it would break the rhythm anyway 19:10:05 lensing lensing compact star 19:11:02 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:11:12 don’t you please come close to us 19:11:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:13:14 * ski rereads arseniiv's statements after realizing they're (probably) not a bot 19:13:42 ski: you don’t know for sure 19:13:53 "dygn" is not very formal, no. though "dag" is still probably more common (but not by that much, would be my guess) 19:14:52 I may be a self-modifying bot written initially in a, let’s say, unlambda 19:15:05 you may be 19:15:24 and can too! 19:16:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:16:53 b_jonas is a bad influence, I’ll try to not discuss small planets too much 19:37:46 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:39:25 LKoen : apparently "nycthémère", according to (courtesy of arseniiv) 19:39:42 niquetamère 19:42:07 à tes souhaits 19:43:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:44:31 does that mean a night-lover, or an alternate name for november? 19:44:58 or maybe nicotine-lover 19:46:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:05:28 https://hastebin.com/cetacujate.txt 20:18:29 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:24:34 -!- MDude has joined. 20:25:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:27:13 okay so apparently nyctémère would be a french word 20:27:33 nycthémère sorry 20:28:00 -!- ineiros has joined. 20:30:18 but sesquiannual definitely doesn't have a french equivalent 20:30:27 and that's worrying 20:46:07 -!- FreeFull has changed nick to Reverse_Video. 20:46:15 -!- Reverse_Video has changed nick to Reverse_Videos. 20:46:19 -!- Reverse_Videos has changed nick to FreeFull. 21:00:13 https://hastebin.com/papomucuja.cpp final and full FizzBuzz in Mode. I think I'm done with this language. 21:01:51 it's interesting, it's a little less than convenient (but manageable), it's an older proof of concept brought to light. 22:16:13 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 22:16:43 Someone really hates me 22:21:38 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:24:52 LKoen : also "nyctémère","nychthémère","nychthéméron" (says WP) 22:25:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:26:17 * ski . o O ( ) 22:40:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:43:26 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:09:40 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:11:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:19:00 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:31:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:34:24 -!- FreeFull has quit. 23:35:37 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:37:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:37:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:41:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:58:22 so, I have this piece of code that does pattern matching and construction for tuples. https://hatebin.com/iepdhihnii 23:59:08 if you have a variable that's not present in the bindings (generated from a match), it gets filled in with a unique value. 23:59:27 I have a hypothesis that because of this, and only this, that it's turing complete. 23:59:40 because I can construct an ever-expanding tape in both directions along with rules. 23:59:57 https://hatebin.com/oggcyfafzd 2019-10-05: 00:00:37 my question is, without this mechanism (which has implications regarding the uniqueness of the generated binding), is it still turing complete? 00:02:45 I don't see how it could be. if I treat the tuple store as a set rather than a bag, there's no way to generate unique tuples without explicitly listing them all. 00:03:30 if I treat it as a bag, then I could probably construct some sort of counter. 00:17:38 I wrote this list of ideas for the game; to see if they like or dislike them or can make variants of it to make a more surprise to me. https://arin.ga/JfMezt What is your opinion of this, please? Do you have any further ideas please? 00:55:25 i can't make any sense of the irc program i wrote 10+ years ago 00:55:28 it's 8 bash shell scripts, uses 100% cpu... 00:55:31 all i know 00:56:50 You should write it to not use 100% CPU. 00:57:08 it wasn't intentional 00:58:08 O, OK 00:59:32 I use IRC program I wrote by myself. If I were writing it today though I probably would do some things differently, such as not using PHP (I didn't have anything better at that time). 01:00:42 no idea how beetle (it's name) works. 01:04:09 Other than using 100% CPU, is it any good? 01:04:30 i remember that it is, in a sense, multiple programs working as one. 01:04:31 I had an IRC thing (though I think it might've been an ircII script) that used 100% of CPU too, except it was on my ISP's shared shell server and got me shouted at. 01:04:45 *wince* 01:05:14 It wasn't a particularly large ISP. 01:05:26 They got acquired at least three levels deep, eventually. 01:05:37 -!- tromp has joined. 01:06:56 Dystopia (the original ISP) got bought up by sci.fi, which merged with a bunch of others to join Saunalahti, which eventually ended up owned by Elisa. 01:09:52 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6). 01:09:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:19:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:33:45 If you want to define busy-beaver-style numbers in a way people will easily agree on, what computation system should you use? 01:34:25 The classic one with Turing machines has questions like whether the tape is double-sided, whether blank is a separate symbol, whether you count number of steps or output size, etc. 01:34:53 What's a sequence that grows as quickly as BB but can be defined unambiguously in one sentence? 01:35:19 I was thinking maybe somthing about the solution to a Diophantine equation of some size, but then defining the size of an equation is slightly awkward. 01:35:34 Hmm, tricky. I think the most important property for such a computation system (beyond being TC, of course) is being simple to state unambiguously. 01:45:22 can you define something analogous to busy beaver machines with lambda calculus or combinators? 01:46:01 Sure. 01:46:12 You can count the number of reductions or something. 01:46:14 yep 01:46:29 Or just produce a large number. 01:46:42 Yeah, I guess a SKI combinator busy beaver makes sense 01:46:43 B(n) = the maximum number of reduction steps to normal form for a combinator string of size n 01:47:12 even those cases still require you to define the syntax to measure size. 01:47:43 true 01:47:55 but it's just a tree where leaves are labeled S or K, right? 01:48:06 a binary tree 01:50:52 still more one way to count that :P 01:50:57 *+than 01:51:10 sure 01:51:15 but it should fit in one sentence 01:51:21 which was the original goal 01:51:33 if you have to define S and K then it'd be a bit of a run-on sentence but whatever 01:53:57 -!- stux|away has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:56:54 -!- stux|away has joined. 01:57:27 i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway. 01:58:53 it seems schlock isn't going to attempt communication at this time. 02:14:11 `dowg œrjan 02:14:13 9196:2016-10-08 ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\xc5\x93rjan \ 9195:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9194:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant pou 02:14:26 `dowt œrjan 02:14:27 9194:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9195:2016-10-08 learn \xc5\x93rjan is oerjan and \xc3\xb8rjan\'s superhero third cousin (once removed) from Qu\xc3\xa9bec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl. \ 9196:2016-10-08 ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/\x 02:14:49 * oerjan cannot recall whether he actually thought of Obelix, as obvious as it is 02:15:00 Obelix? 02:15:04 * pikhq scratches her head 02:15:15 shachaf: you could also use binary lambda calculus 02:15:26 which was designed for roughly this purpose 02:16:04 pikhq: famous for also getting powers by falling into something hth 02:16:23 what are cheesy powers 02:16:36 Oh, as in Asterix & Obelix. Derp 02:17:54 `wisdom kmc 02:17:54 ​kmc//kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. She is her own grandpa. 02:17:58 `wisdom pikhq 02:17:59 That's not wise. 02:18:04 `wisdom HackEso 02:18:07 ​hackeso//HackEso is almost but not quite unlike HackEgo. 02:18:08 kmc: as a casein point, imagine spiderman-like web made of sticky cheese 02:18:20 I see. Shame about my lack of wisdom. 02:18:41 sometimes the wisest wisdom is none? 02:18:46 there's no pikhq wisdom? 02:18:54 `dowg pikhq 02:18:55 No output. 02:18:58 Woe betides 02:19:00 and never has been 02:19:12 I must have always been a fool 02:19:35 well then i can save work on correcting pronouns 02:19:52 I suppose that does make things easier. 02:20:53 Benefits of being an unquotable fool: pronouns become much more mutable state 02:21:03 Fewer side effects 02:22:23 . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. ) 02:22:59 A likely story 02:26:29 it's just extrapolation https://xkcd.com/605/ 02:26:52 I suppose that tracks. 02:29:43 By extension, soon the entire world will be trans. We're taking over, muahahaha 02:29:48 I'm arguing with a mycophobe on reddit :| 02:29:58 A... mycophobe? 02:30:05 Someone who's afraid of _fungus_? 02:30:07 someone who is irrationally fearful of mushrooms 02:30:12 which would include most americans 02:30:21 Say what now 02:30:28 But mushrooms are delicious. 02:30:37 not "eating mushrooms can be dangerous and you have to know what you're doing" but "oh god anyone who tries to pick mushrooms is going to die no matter how careful they are" 02:30:49 this person also seems to think the only reason to pick wild mushrooms is to save money 02:30:49 Sigh. 02:30:58 oerjan: I used to think I'd be the last cis male left 02:31:05 lol 02:31:25 kmc: So, tell me how that worked out? :) 02:32:16 :3 02:32:33 Nyaruhodō 02:32:43 by the year 2050, all coding is done by trans lesbian catgirls, all of whom are dating each other 02:32:56 pikhq: ? 02:33:34 "Naruhodō" (I see), said in a catlike fashion 02:33:52 kmc: And then, the economy will finally become subservient to the gay agenda. 02:34:02 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:34:23 seems apropos https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71753317_680517102458398_924369166457110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnaI1aohRyAnMzmm-SsSpMKuebusN3Z9PHoa_cp9IRhvAhHuFh92CAjnr9S8lp-Dp1goWX-QZKulownlDCH54dW&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=f1303938ed1d6cfd9ed4361195396396&oe=5E29C3BA 02:35:03 pikhq: *taps fingers together* eeeeeeexcellent 02:58:59 -!- imode has joined. 03:05:48 -!- tromp has joined. 03:10:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:36:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:37:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 03:49:59 shachaf: do you know anything about meditation? 03:50:14 what kinds to do, how to get started etc 03:51:05 Not much. 03:51:30 Here I thought you were omniscient. What use are you anyways? 03:52:19 I know some people who are into it, at various levels of hippitude, and they tend to recommend it? 04:00:14 -!- tromp has joined. 04:04:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:18:36 -!- quintopia has joined. 04:36:52 I've done a bit of meditation 04:38:23 basically all I've done is go into a hypnagogic state while my brain is still awake, basically lay completely still for a long time 04:39:51 eventually you should feel an, uh, weight, or numbness, leading down your extremities 04:42:33 it's weird not having any (changing) sensory input at all... 04:55:42 How to control the set of characters that pushing control and a arrow key skips to in the location bar in Firefox? I want it to skip to only / & = # ? 05:00:01 Hooloovo0: cool 05:00:08 I'm going to try a sensory deprivation float tank probably next week 05:00:17 and see what that's like 05:00:47 fun, let me know how that goes 05:00:59 sure thing 05:02:50 I feel like a sensory deprivation tank would produce the same effects as I get, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I'm not (sensing/feeling/experiencing) 05:18:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:21:23 mhm 05:21:28 well, it'll be different for everyone anyway 05:21:33 but I'm glad to share my experiences 05:21:52 I have a longstanding interest in altered mental states. 05:22:20 one semester in college I had 2 roommates so I built the space under my desk into a sensory isolation sleeping pod 05:22:23 it was great 05:22:39 I had a thick piece of wood and blackout curtains that I could slide against the open side 05:22:55 I slept in there, would also watch tv on my laptop, or listen to music in the dark 05:23:19 and i'm also into psychedelic drugs but you know that. 05:23:31 zzo38: have you ever taken psychedelic drugs? 05:24:02 I have tried to meditate a bit, but never made a habit of it; I am much better at forming habits now than I was the last time I tried, so maybe it will stick this time 05:24:12 my therapist recommend going to some events at the SF Zen Center 05:24:34 hynagogic states are interesting 05:24:42 hypnagogic* 05:24:53 as are dreams 05:25:02 I have used galantamine a couple of times to enhance dreaming 05:25:56 I have never had a real habit of meditating 05:26:31 it's always been somethting I do once every 2 days - 2 months ish 05:27:04 mm 05:27:16 I did take a class on buddhism which I thought was really great 05:27:21 cool 05:29:32 the professor is a monk - he teaches at a monestary/university and I don't know what else to say 05:30:09 cool 05:30:58 another thing i do that is maybe a bit like meditation (or maybe even the opposite) is to listen to music intently in a way that crowds out 'verbal' thoughts 05:31:03 it feels good 05:32:20 at some point in my late teens I gained the ability to follow multiple voices in music in a deeper way than I could before -- in a way that actually feels like multithreaded attention 05:32:56 this happened shortly after I first smoked pot, i don't know if that's related but plausibly 05:33:04 I feel like "not thinking verbal thoughts" is a distinct state of consciousness different from a lot of others 05:34:39 yeah 05:34:47 and the goal of many forms of meditation is to reach this state? 05:35:04 it's what you get from listening while high af, and (chanting/dancing/etc) while arguably sober 05:35:12 yeah 05:37:24 i think drugs usually *don't* help me get there 05:37:39 because i am very analytical and keep trying to describe the drug experience in words (in my own head or to others) 05:38:31 and even if that's not where my attention focuses, i get really analytical on psychedelics 05:38:35 cannabis might be better for it 05:38:50 but yeah I think listening to music intently (whether sober or not) is the best way I know to do it 05:39:00 that makes sense... when I take drugs, I always think about how it's different from base reality 05:39:41 I have not tried psychadelics, just weed, so there's that 05:39:54 well, weed/booze 05:40:07 from this discussion I get the feeling that you would find psychedelics interesting :) 05:40:36 yes, I think so 05:40:51 I mean I'm sure theyd be interesting 05:41:26 I'm not actually sure why I have qualms about taking them 05:41:41 never had an easy chance to 05:42:03 yeah 05:43:01 good to wait and do it right 05:43:12 because the experience is determined mostly by set&setting and not by the drug itself 05:43:27 stanislav grof called LSD a "nonspecific amplifier of mental processes" or something like that, and I think he's right 05:43:44 I think of it as turning up the gain on all sorts of pattern matching systems 05:44:25 so you start to see things that aren't there, but also things that are real and had eluded you previously 05:44:33 not just in the literal sense of 'see' but also with respect to emotions and cognition 05:44:42 but, it's hard to put it into words of course. 05:46:57 yeah, see/experience/feel are different 05:47:20 then on the more intense experiences the subject/object boundary itself becomes permeable, or dissolves entirely 05:47:58 I'm not entirely sure I understand that sentence 05:48:14 which is impossible to describe. anything you say about it is a contradiction because our way of talking is essentially predicated on that distinction 05:48:27 a statement like "I experienced ego death" is obviously contradictory 05:48:32 and yet 05:48:52 ego death is... a thing that happens 05:48:54 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:48:57 it doesn't happen *to* anyone 05:49:33 I was essentially a panpsychist before I started taking psychedelics but it's one thing to believe something and another to experience it, you know? 05:49:45 that there is only one thing, which is you and me and the universe and God and doesn't even need a name 05:49:56 and all the boundaries are heuristics we impose on the world 05:50:19 When I was a v. small human I remember just naturally thinking that everyone was the same person. 05:50:31 And being surprised at the realization that maybe that's not true. 05:50:39 Of course it could be a fake memory like most of my earliest memories. 05:50:41 did you include yourself in that? 05:50:49 how do you know your early memories are fake? 05:50:51 Yes. 05:51:14 ++ 05:51:27 I don't have a lot of childhood memories. I'm told this is a thing that happens with dissociation 05:51:30 but maybe I have enough 05:51:33 Some of them I can tell because they match stories that I've been told, but then when I ask about further details it turns out they're wrong (e.g. not in the place I thought). 05:51:44 mm 05:52:16 I'm not sure what you mean by the me/universe/god statement 05:52:26 Others I think are fake due to other heuristics but I don't remember the details now. 05:52:28 Hooloovo0: I'm only going to make a fool of myself if I try 05:52:31 that's how these things go 05:52:52 lexande frequently submits corrections to my autobiography 05:52:54 I know 05:53:01 I think his memory is better than mine overall 05:55:44 before searching for it again I felt like https://principiadiscordia.com/book/57.php 05:55:47 might be relevant 05:55:52 When any player casts a spell, that player may choose a number which is a multiple of the converted mana cost of that spell, is less than or equal to forty, and has not yet been chosen for ~. If they do not, they lose five life. 05:56:00 re-searching? 05:57:18 Hooloovo0: that is a nice page 05:57:28 I was pretty into discordianism as a teenager 05:57:34 I should probably go back and read the texts again 05:57:36 Hooloovo0: I read that before, and, I think it is good. 05:57:49 * Hooloovo0 reads logs: I know was re: (I'll make a fool of myself if I try) 05:58:01 "Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered." 05:58:07 this can be made mathematically precise in quantum mechanics 05:58:31 that's one of the reasons I like it 05:58:34 you have different basis sets for a hilbert space 05:58:48 kmc: Yes, I suppose so. I have not considered that, but, yes, that makes sense. 05:58:49 a state that looks entangled in one basis is separated in another 05:58:58 and everything you do in the system is basically a change of basis? 05:59:20 Wait, does entanglement depend on your basis? 05:59:21 One book about philosophy that I had read some time ago, mentioned, quoting someone else, they expected you can write a serious book about philosophy consisting entirely of jokes. Now I can think that is correct, because that is what Principia Discordia is. 05:59:22 quantum observation is choosing a basis and then projecting the system state onto it 05:59:25 shachaf: maybe not 05:59:36 I thought that, like being a rank-1 matrix, separability was basis-independent. 05:59:55 zzo38: that seems about right 06:00:33 whoa, I had a basic question about quantum things that maybe you know the answer to. 06:00:47 you shouldn't expect me to be correct 06:00:55 I feel like all the quantum things I know, like entanglement, can be local. 06:00:57 especially in my current state 06:01:03 But I don't know what locality means. 06:01:08 What do I do? 06:02:02 I have looked at the mathematics of quantum state vectors, and it does seem like some states might be entangled or unentangled from some point of view. But, it is confusing and apparently even scientists do not understand so well, so I have heard? 06:02:22 zzo38, no, the PD is completely serious. there's no jokes in it 06:02:42 zzo38: I think the specific thing about whether a state is separable or not is just regular multilinear algebra that people do understand? 06:02:43 * Hooloovo0 goes to get a hot dog 06:03:27 shachaf: Probably you are correct. 06:04:51 Hooloovo0: Are you sure there is no jokes in it? I thought it is completely serious despite it consists entirely of jokes. 06:05:04 `5 w 06:05:08 1/2:norway//Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec. \ k//K K K Ken \ brain//Brains are just receptacles for bricks. \ `hello//`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 06:05:10 `n 06:05:11 2/2:letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline. \ te sting//This is horrible? 06:08:08 zzo38, I'm pretty sure that's syi sydasti 06:11:04 sri syadasti even 06:16:45 -!- xkapastel has joined. 06:27:13 -!- tromp has joined. 06:38:32 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 06:42:23 `ddate 06:42:23 Today is Pungenday, the 59th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3185 06:42:25 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 06:43:17 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 06:47:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:49:17 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 07:07:59 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:08:24 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:08:50 Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/records_of_puzzles 07:21:07 -!- Frater_EST has left. 07:52:36 zzo38: I like the sentence "Do you like this?". 07:52:41 Is that what you were asking about? 07:54:34 shachaf: I don't get it... it's neither fun nor a pun. 08:04:58 Hooloovo0 : hm, i've done that, some 08:05:24 Do you like non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs? 08:05:48 I'm kind of surprised there appear to be so many tradeoffs in ZKP options rather than one clearly best way to do it. 08:11:11 . o O ( that often happens when you solve an impossible problem ) 08:12:04 Impossible why? 08:12:41 yeah, nzsnarks are cool 08:13:04 I took a class from Andrew Miller on applied crypto 08:13:33 Can you transfer a full understanding of nzsnarks directly into my brain? 08:14:06 man I wish it were in my brain 08:14:28 * Hooloovo0 goes to study the scribbled class notes 08:15:01 . o O ( one should be able to teach those while having zero knowledge of the topic ) 08:15:41 (Hooloovo0 : the laying still thing, i mean) 08:16:58 how did you feel during/after? 08:17:56 I'm interested if it's similar to my own experience or if there's some qualitative differences 08:18:31 occasionally, my heart can sometimes start beating heavily, for no discernable reason 08:19:52 it can be hard to maintain a relaxed attention thing. not paying particular attention to breathing, to heart, to visual (non-)input, &c. 08:20:28 yeah, that can happen 08:20:40 in some cases, i've layed, thinking about some mathy/logicy/programmingy problem, and after awhile noticed the sensory world has just faded away 08:21:33 some times, i've tried counting up (sometimes in hexadecimal) (at a sortof irregular pace), in order to keep mind busy, balancing at sleep's edge 08:23:40 occasionally, i've had these weird momentary visual impressions of some kind of scene (i'm pretty sure i didn't accidentally open my eyes), however, disappeared too quickly for me to get any bearings on what's in the scene. i've wondered whether that's a hypnagogic hallucination, but if it is, i suspect it's not the usual kind 08:24:35 I'm not sure there is a 'usual hypnagogic' 08:24:39 (relevant here is perhaps that i don't think i'm a visual thinker, i have a hard time visualizing anything at all. i think maybe i'm thinking "structurally" (in terms of connections ?), perhaps ?) 08:24:46 could be 08:24:50 wtf is happening 08:25:02 go to half-sleep 08:25:26 [[Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66462&oldid=50788 * A * (-34) Technically Prolog is a 3GL that describes how to achieve a specified result, so does Brachylog, which is inspired by Prolog. 08:25:52 I am definitely a visual thinker, so I'm not sure what non-visual hypnagogicity would be like 08:26:10 one thing which i'm pondered if it maybe is, is related to WILDs, that i saw someone describe. they'd lay awake, and eventually they'd be "presented" with scenes, which if they "jumped into", they'd become dreams (lucid) 08:27:10 I have only once or twice had lucid dreams... they were ok, I guess? 08:28:17 (occasionally, i've had a sensation (partly controllable) of "mind being curled up like a piece of paper in a roll, tighter and tighter". not quite sure how to express that) 08:28:23 ski: Did you read the book _Impro_? 08:28:30 yea, i don't think i've had them many times, either 08:28:37 shachaf : no, what's it about ? 08:28:51 All sorts of things. But it opens with a discussion of this, I think. 08:29:07 * ski is bad at remembering dreams. should perhaps try setting the alarm clock one hour earlier some time, again 08:29:35 I feel like I've had a similar sensation... but I'm not sure 08:29:47 I was probably not sober at the time 08:30:00 _Impro_ is such a good book. 08:30:40 * ski . o O ( ,,, ) 08:32:15 ski: See the first chapter, _Note on Myself_, starting at page 14. 08:32:29 (some book i read described working at it "from both ends", trying to get more access to dreams, from an awake state of mind (iirc, some types of meditation), but also trying to get more access to waking thoughts, from a dreaming state of mind) 08:33:04 "Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre" by Keith Johnstone in 1979 ? 08:33:24 -!- int-e has left. 08:35:17 ski: Yes. 08:35:50 [[Deklare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66463&oldid=66176 * A * (+1369) How do I execute a program? 08:36:09 (See link.) 08:36:29 (hm, some time ago, someone in another channel was talking a bit about their programming team being send to some improvised drama thing. this person liked it) 08:39:31 [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66464&oldid=66463 * A * (+236) 08:40:22 [[Deklare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66465&oldid=66464 * A * (+124) 08:41:45 By 14 I mean 13. 08:50:24 hm, interesting. thank you 08:50:51 "I thought of a house, ..." -- i'm not sure i could do that 08:52:23 * ski . o O ( "Aphantasia: Seeing the world without a mind's eye" (TEDx) by Tamara Alireza in 2016 at ,(questionarie) ,"Vividness of Visual Imagery" ) 08:53:14 whoa, this first chapter (20 pages) is so good. 08:54:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:58:29 Also the rest of the book. 08:59:11 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: :q). 09:00:44 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 09:11:01 -!- int-e has joined. 09:15:46 -!- FreeFull has joined. 09:29:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:52:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:54:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:00:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:19:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:23:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:51:52 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:59:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:25:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:35:22 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 11:38:07 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 11:47:17 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66466&oldid=66351 * A * (+86) /* Turing-Completeness */ 11:49:17 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66467&oldid=66466 * TwilightSparkle * (+221) 11:50:25 -!- atslash has joined. 11:54:37 -!- tromp has joined. 11:56:08 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66468&oldid=66467 * A * (+205) /* Turing-Completeness */ 11:57:29 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 11:59:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:33:02 -!- tromp has joined. 12:37:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:01:38 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:07:21 [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66469&oldid=57563 * Saka * (+81) /* My Languages */ 13:46:10 [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66470&oldid=65457 * Saka * (+76) /* I/O */ 13:48:18 [[Letters++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66471&oldid=66470 * Saka * (+6) /* I/O */ 13:51:58 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:57:57 -!- tromp has joined. 14:02:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:05:52 -!- zseri has joined. 14:17:20 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:22:09 -!- zseri has joined. 14:24:23 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 14:29:21 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:34:02 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:47:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:00:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:01:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:12:12 -!- imode has joined. 15:17:52 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:23:09 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:36:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:37:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:38:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:39:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:40:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:47:25 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6). 15:49:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:49:40 “Name of author by Title of book” has some funny scenes though generally it’s too crazy confusingly crazily confusing even for me 15:53:00 like “I’m going to sell your company to me” one, — “What do you mean? I won’t sell!” — “That’s why I’m going to do it” 15:53:20 "CEO of the future" 15:53:25 (and then something confusing happens just the next moment) 15:53:35 it's not that confusing 15:53:51 people sell things that don't belong to them all the time 15:54:58 this, yes, I don’t disagree, ownership is a shady concept 15:55:30 "The international space station, filled with chess-playing Russians and Americans so atrophied they can never return home" 15:55:33 sounds legit 15:55:43 although were the fuck did the European astronauts go? 15:56:14 to Europe maybe^W^W^W 15:57:02 anyway I it sat half-read for some time and I’m going to try to finish it maybe 15:57:53 -!- stux|away has quit (Quit: Aloha!). 15:58:08 -!- stux|away has joined. 15:58:24 controversial pieces 15:58:32 I should write them, not read 15:58:48 have you read "House of Leaves", by Mark Z. Danielewski? 16:01:45 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:02:05 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:02:54 -!- atslash has joined. 16:02:58 LKoen: no 16:03:31 it's... interesting 16:03:35 I think it's pretty good 16:03:45 the format is a bit unusual 16:03:47 and the scenario is really, really unexpected 16:09:33 -!- b_jonas has joined. 16:17:22 i hear there are entire books written as a single sentence, anyway. => yeah. some of them seem like they're just multiple sentences search-replaced to change sentence ending to semicolons. 16:17:45 sometimes what I write on irc looks like that too. I should work on writing shorter sentences. 16:17:54 -!- tromp has joined. 16:19:26 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:22:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:30:00 Marce Proust wrote his books with looooong sentences 16:30:16 sometimes, by the point the sentence ends, I forgot what the beginning of the sentence was about 16:42:33 " ... thinking that everyone was the same person." => as in http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html ? 16:56:15 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:58:56 -!- imode has joined. 17:00:31 (5000) (fizzbuzz) takes 27 seconds. ugh. 17:01:16 I actually wonder why that is. the interpreter has crazy long pauses between steps. 17:04:02 how long does 99 beers take? 17:07:17 the profiling time has come 17:07:22 [[Talk:Zull]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66472 * MiroslavRD * (+621) Created page with "Zull? More like NULL!!! --~~~~" 17:07:30 https://repl.it/repls/CompleteSpringgreenSpreadsheet 17:07:37 here's (100) (fizzbuzz). 17:07:40 [[Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66473&oldid=66462 * Salpynx * (+34) Declarative 17:07:42 it takes 2 seconds. 17:07:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aahY61e38ms Evoland - this is an interesting game, I first saw a run on a GDQ 17:08:38 7.47ms to expand all the macros, ~2s to fully run FizzBuzz. 17:09:12 I saw long pauses between printing when executing it locally and with larger values. 17:09:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:16:06 [[Zull]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66474&oldid=63920 * MiroslavRD * (+112) Added more links, 2 sections, and i don't know what i also did 17:20:53 `python3 -cfor n in range(1,101):print(("FizzBuzz","Buzz","Fizz",n)[(0 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz Fizz 22 23 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 28 29 FizzBuzz 31 32 Fizz 34 Buzz Fizz 37 38 Fizz Buzz 41 Fizz 43 44 FizzBuzz 46 47 Fizz 49 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 56 Fizz 58 59 FizzBuzz 61 62 Fizz 64 Buzz Fizz 67 68 Fizz Buzz 71 Fizz 73 74 FizzBuzz 76 77 Fizz 79 Buzz Fizz 82 83 Fizz Buzz 86 Fizz 88 89 FizzBuzz 91 92 Fizz 94 Buzz Fizz 97 98 Fizz Buzz 17:24:51 [[Sashleyfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66475&oldid=66402 * MiroslavRD * (+154) 17:28:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:47:33 b_jonas: No. 17:56:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:05 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 18:32:25 is there a binary lambda calculus tutorial somewhere around the web 18:32:33 for someone who has barely ever programmed pure FP 18:33:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:33:17 What is a tutorial? 18:33:39 something that will help me understanding the concept 18:33:56 I've been looking for assemblers too, but it seems like I'm out of luck 18:36:49 `? tutorial 18:36:50 tutorial? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:37:00 a tutorial is a writeup about burritos I think 18:37:03 My tutorial is as follows: 1. Learn regular lambda calculus. 2. Learn binary lambda calculus. 18:37:17 kspalaiologos: I recommend David Madore's old unlambda writeup 18:37:35 www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ 18:37:38 um 18:37:43 http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ 18:37:47 stupid browser 18:37:51 what's the esolang that has the simplest possible implementation (not necessarily language). 18:37:59 bytebytejump 18:38:05 I recall one being 6 instructions worth of- yeah something like that. 18:38:33 imode: that's not a well-defined question, but Three-Star Programmer and Waterfall Model are candidates 18:38:58 https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/MerseneTuringCompletness/blob/master/SeedProof.tex#L581 18:39:03 feel free to take the C code if you need it 18:39:28 also probably bytepusher, but I hate it 18:39:45 it's one of my enemy esolangs, like brainfuck 18:40:07 " . o O ( some day i will be the last cis male in this channel. )" => after you get rid of me, obviously 18:40:41 pikhq: wait, so what gender are you now? 18:40:55 * pikhq is a girl ^_^ 18:41:22 kspalaiologos: I don't know what this is. 18:41:27 I don't think we'll run out of cis males, because we get replaced by more young cis males that grow up 18:41:40 imode, it's BBJ interpreter in C 18:41:44 in this particular line selected 18:41:52 ah. 18:41:55 I'm more afraid of the scenario when trans people become the majority so the standards flip upside down, and we'll be the weird ones 18:41:56 the rest of the document won't probably help you much xd 18:42:02 but I think even that would be a win for us 18:43:40 _what_. 18:43:53 bytepusher is a game console using bytebytejump? 18:43:56 jesus. 18:44:01 that's awesome! 18:44:22 the more concerning fact is 18:44:26 they made an assembler for that 18:44:29 . o O ( how fast does it run... ) 18:44:35 and binary lambda calculus is still something I'm too stupid for 18:44:56 kspalaiologos: why is that concerning? I made an assembler for an OISC too, to be able to use symbolic names that work even if I insert or delete words 18:45:03 b_jonas: I think, realistically, that is very far off 18:45:08 I even added local labels 18:45:23 b_jonas, well, bytebytejump is a hard thing to get right 18:45:27 We're only like 0.6% of the overall population 18:45:29 because of the lookup tables 18:45:45 is BBJ turing complete due to lookup tables? 18:45:53 well, yes 18:45:58 you can add only using lookup tables 18:46:00 or subtract 18:46:08 wait, BBJ can't be TC.. 18:46:10 pikhq: who are "we"? trans people, or trans females? and do you count infants into the population? 18:46:14 Trans people 18:46:15 so you can make a subleq to bytebytejump compiler 18:46:28 I'm actually 18:46:31 really interested in doing that 18:47:04 oh 18:47:08 and the nyan cat for bytepusher 18:47:11 wtf is the "structured" equivalent of BBJ. 18:47:13 is 190 kilobytes big 18:47:37 that I'm not surprised at, you need so many lookup tables. 18:47:38 imode, you're left on your own on this one 18:47:40 good luck 18:48:02 pikhq: is there a census on this? I'd like to know the ratio of trans males vs trans females, because it seems like I hear more of trans females somehow, which is weird 18:48:26 you can't really have a "structured" equivalent of BBJ, because there's.. no conditional machinery. 18:49:07 There's relatively few stats on it. I would suspect it's 50/50, and you're biased by the spaces you occupy, _buuut_ there's very limited actual studies. 18:49:28 pikhq: yes, I'm quite likely biased, which is why I'd like to know 18:50:16 https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf is one of the better demographic studies we've got 18:50:37 I've experienced that there are more mtf than ftm honestly 18:51:23 I don't know, although I suppose the reason. 18:52:48 pikhq: that gives a split by age, which is useful, but not a split by genders 18:52:53 You're in tech. We're overrepresented because cis men are overrepresented. 18:52:56 b_jonas: Yeah 18:54:51 I don't really know or care too much how many trans people it is, I think if that is what they want to do, OK; but, I think that it can confuse the language in some cases, and I also think that this "gender identity" shouldn't be needed. One suggestion I have seen is for "man" and "woman" to be social but for "male" and "female" to be biological; that helps a bit, I suppose. 18:55:17 y'know, I like that distinction. 18:55:25 obviously I only know when people tell that they are trans, so for most trans people I probably don't know that they are trans because I don't care 18:56:05 so the more trans female is just among people who write on the internet that they are trans female and I read it 18:56:25 zzo38: I think that's oversimplifying things intensely, and betrays an unfamiliarity with how this shit works 18:56:56 b_jonas: It appears the institute that did that study is now trying to do a better demographic survey now. 18:57:08 According to them, it will be the _first_ such demographic survey ever done. 18:57:14 pikhq: Yes, it is simplifying it. You can have sex change too, so you can be a kind of hybrid, too. (You can also be born as a hybrid of male and female; it does happen.) 18:57:16 that seems quite likely 18:58:08 zzo38: Additionally, much of what we think of "biological sex" is, uh, purely hormonal. 18:58:26 you cannot take enough hormones to turn your penis into a vagina. 18:58:31 and vice versa. 18:58:36 so no, it really isn't. 18:58:39 it's genetic. 18:58:55 imode: Developmentally speaking, your penis was once a vagina, and then testosterone happened. 18:58:59 But, I think that even if a person is a "man" and not a "woman", if they are biologically female (or had the functions of such) at the time their child was born, then they are that child's mother. And if (hypothetically) someone can manage to change their biological sex enough from female to male later and have another child as the male function, then they can be one person's mother and another person's father. 18:59:20 pikhq: I'm pretty sure I'm a male because of my chromosomes. 18:59:23 zzo38: The mere act of "defining biologically female" is itself _much_ more difficult than you think. 18:59:38 imode: Orly? Have you actually had a karyotype done? 18:59:53 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_chromosome basic biology. 19:00:21 if you wanna argue gender identity, whatever. but biology is biology. 19:00:35 imode: Bio 102: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor 19:00:52 pikhq: Yes, I know it is more complicated (I don't know all of the details, but I know it is more complicated than the simplified version I mentioned) 19:01:11 imode: TLDR: shut up, you don't know what you're talking about, you're just being an ass. 19:01:13 congratulations, that doesn't change your genetic makeup. 19:01:29 TL;DR stop discussing this in this channel. 19:01:34 imode: Unless you have actually had a genetic test, you don't even know what your genetic makeup is. 19:01:46 imode: Oh fuck off. 19:01:51 you first. 19:02:32 You're the one who's being offensive and self-righteous. That you are upsetting me intentionally in this way is _your_ fault. 19:02:43 have fun on ignore. 19:03:02 ops: Do we have a policy on offensive BS? 19:03:49 “but chromosomes” is a pretty low quality argument tbh 19:03:56 ^ 19:04:08 Maybe much of it is purely hormonal, but there is also genetics, and perhaps other stuff, so, it is complicated. I don't know how it works though; I am not a biologist. But, I think that chromosomes are probably a part of it. 19:04:08 sorry, I didn't wnat to start that 19:04:44 zzo38: They are -- ish. There's a gene that is commonly on the Y chromosome that triggers the production of certain hormones that triggers a large pile of other phenotypical changes. 19:04:51 (And, a X chromosome, is, normally, something that both male and female will have.) 19:04:54 It's actually _stunningly_ complicated. 19:05:09 And there's plenty of ways for it to go screwy. 19:05:11 OK, I believe you. 19:05:26 (even if I do not understand it completely) 19:05:37 For instance, the gene is only _usually_ on the Y chromosome. It moves over to the X sometimes. There's literally XX cis men walking around. 19:06:54 Yes, OK. I didn't know that, but, OK. 19:06:57 biological sex is complicated but at least it is amenable to scientific inquiry 19:07:18 j4cbo: Gender identity is too -- people are real, even if they're fuzzy and harder to measure. :) 19:07:27 the concentration of mentally ill people on IRC never ceases to amaze me. 19:07:37 ops: ^ 19:08:13 pikhq: identity sure, but societal expectations and roles are impossibly complicated 19:08:28 (It seems to me that such thing as "XX cis men" might be a kind of hybrid, since "XX" is supposed to designate female, but in this case they are otherwise male; but, I don't really know what the proper definitions are, so I may be wrong.) 19:08:43 So's physics. I hear physics is a well-established field. 19:09:02 zzo38: The sex-determining region Y is more-or-less the only functional content of the Y chromosome. 19:09:18 physics is measurable in ways that culture is not 19:09:38 Which is why sociology is hard. 19:09:44 OK 19:10:12 But it's real, so you can _do_ science on it. Just... hopelessly difficult, so expect to spend all your time on establishing basic results. 19:11:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:12:03 * pikhq is beginning to see why some other former regulars abandoned this channel 19:14:36 Freenode’s “ops should not wear hats” thing is unhelpful imo 19:14:55 define wear hats. 19:15:24 j4cbo: Yeah, it makes it difficult to decide who to escalate a conflict over what is appropriate discussion in a channel to. 19:16:12 if you mean take particular sides in a discussion, no, they really shouldn't. discussions and disagreements happen all the time. 19:16:20 imode: “ops should not have +o except when actively using it” 19:16:34 ah, that. eh. 19:16:39 Is imode an op? Please say no 19:16:44 which leads to a... unmoderated atmosphere 19:16:50 I don’t think so? 19:16:54 Ah, good 19:17:20 I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I guess it's more relaxed in some places but I've never had a problem knowing who the ops are. 19:17:22 "An op's conduct is incompatible with what I think is appropriate for this channel" is not a pleasant discussion to have. 19:17:33 j4cbo: our channel operators are fizzie, oerjan and ais523. same as the wiki moderators. you can tell that from NICKSERV ACCESS #esoteric LIST. the hats don't matter. 19:17:50 welcome to #esoteric, where the languages are weird and the hats don't matter. 19:18:24 but I think this is the sort of discussion that you can just walk away from, it doesn't need ops 19:19:26 b_jonas: I am inclined to disagree. It's pretty... Incompatible with me being welcome here at all. 19:19:30 is pikhq trying to get me banned or something for disagreeing with them. if so, that's amazing. 19:19:39 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnimaLibera * New user account 19:20:09 I think that you can temporarily ignore the IRC if you do not like it and later you can discuss something else on this IRC. Since, we discuss other stuff on this IRC, too. 19:20:09 pikhq: I mean, it's a discussion that will die down in a few hours if you ignore it, and it isn't interwoven with some other important discussion that you can't miss at the same time 19:20:14 imode: i think your comments have gone substantially beyond “disagreeing” 19:20:22 j4cbo: such as. 19:20:38 the “mentally ill” remarks 19:20:42 ^ 19:20:43 not related to this channel. 19:20:51 bullshit 19:20:57 Even if you do want to ignore some discussion when reading the logs, if they are a discussion by different people, you could use grep, perhaps 19:20:59 not even related to this server. 19:21:12 b_jonas: Yeah, calling me "mentally ill" is straight-up insulting me for who I am. 19:21:24 imode: it did not read that way 19:21:30 sorry you parsed it that way. 19:21:45 should have probably qualified. the discussion ended for me on "have fun on ignore." 19:21:59 pikhq: yes, I do realize. so ignore the whole discussion. unlike on a high-traffic channel where you have to separate threads, you can easily skip over them. 19:22:23 b_jonas: This is about as inappropriate as calling someone a "f****t" 19:22:30 maybe everybody needs to just step away from their computers and take a walk. 19:22:35 fizzie: ping 19:22:48 “stop discussing this in this channel” is also not your call to make 19:23:06 that I'll accept. was an opinion and shouldn't have come across as an order. 19:23:15 imode: so maybe the only one who needs to step away is... you? 19:23:24 pretty comfortable where I am, actually. 19:23:27 Maybe I should join every other trans person who's ever been in this channel and leave. (there have been several) 19:23:47 no, all of you should step away. I wasn't specific about who. 19:24:43 anyway I’m out for now 19:24:51 and return a few hours later, but after a random amount of time so you don't return all at the same time (which is a proven working strategy on all our ethernet and wifi networks), by which time we'll forget about this 19:25:00 but I'm sorry again for starting this 19:25:09 not your fault. 19:32:50 * pikhq will run off to scream into a pillow for a few hours 19:33:02 wat 19:38:05 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66476&oldid=66459 * AnimaLibera * (+229) 19:40:03 [[User:AnimaLibera]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+33) Created page with " Comming soon (before October 30)" 19:40:42 -!- tromp has joined. 19:45:05 `? ronald reagan 19:45:06 Ronald Reagan was an actor so great that he managed to convince the US that he was the President. Then he created the Star Wars project to destroy the Soviet Union. 19:45:08 `? star wars 19:45:09 Star Wars was a missile defence system invented by Ronald Reagan. With it, he managed to destroy the Soviet Union, then rode into the sunset. 19:45:10 `? soviet union 19:45:11 In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while. 19:45:20 `? daystar 19:45:21 The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office. 19:45:22 `? nightstar 19:45:23 The Nightstars are an unscientific myth of a sky covered in faint flickering lights. Only hermits and superstitious farmers believe this. 19:45:42 `? bofh 19:45:43 A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP. 19:46:32 ah yes, one of those was created by me 19:46:37 <3 19:51:38 `' soup contest 19:51:38 303) my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup 20:01:05 * pikhq didn't even realize initially -- imode misgendered her, too 20:01:08 yipe 20:13:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:21:17 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.). 20:22:28 -!- shikhin has joined. 20:24:58 ``` sed -i '21,$d' share/8ballreplies # let's remove those two extra replies 20:25:00 share/8ballreplies//It is certain. \ It is decidedly so. \ Without a doubt. \ Yes definitely. \ You may rely on it. \ As I see it, yes. \ Most likely. \ Outlook good. \ Yes. \ Signs point to yes. \ Reply hazy try again. \ Ask again later. \ Better not tell you now. \ Cannot predict now. \ Concentrate and ask again. \ Don't count on it. \ My reply is no. \ My sources say no. \ Outlook not so good. \ Very doubtful. 20:25:24 `8ball 20:25:25 Don't count on it. 20:26:55 `8ball > wisdom/8ball 20:26:56 Most likely. 20:28:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:33:46 binary lambda calculus each time reminisces me about Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon Shear Disaster Download, as they are almost isomorphic but the second one is way more human-readable 20:37:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:42:36 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:44:34 `' baptized 20:44:34 441) Having only been Catholic in the sense of being baptized that way, I still really like all their silly arcana Judaism has them beat, of course I almost converted just so I could look at my roommate's books 20:48:13 `? Aragorn 20:48:14 Aragorn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:54:02 `? pants 20:54:07 pants? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:54:25 mood 21:05:04 -!- imode has joined. 21:13:50 i'm wearing pants 21:13:55 i should probably do something about that 21:14:59 * kmc reads scrollback 21:14:59 sigh. 21:15:05 i'm not sure why people are so hung up on chromosomes 21:15:12 they are a starting block, a set of blueprints 21:15:26 which meaning of pants? 21:15:27 so much of human phenotype is determined by other things 21:15:34 b_jonas: the american one 21:15:39 I wear pants for work all the time 21:15:52 pantsu. 21:16:12 en_US("pants") = en_UK("trousers") 21:16:18 en_US("underwear") = en_UK("pants") 21:16:18 sometimes long jeans, sometimes short jeans 21:16:26 this is one of many fun things I've learned from watching British TV 21:16:35 I specifically asked them about dress code 21:16:55 they basically said that since I'm a software guy, I can wear whatever I want 21:16:56 the best one is probably that "fanny" is a very mild term for butt in the US whereas in the UK it means vulva 21:17:07 so I bet they are amused by "fanny packs" 21:17:18 hardware guys sometimes need protective equipment when installing stuff on site 21:17:31 b_jonas: i heard a story that Google in its earlier years once had "pajama day" at work, and the posters said "wear what you wear to bed!" 21:17:35 so a lot of people showed up naked. 21:17:37 kmc: I think it's because some people get caught up on this idea that everything has to be easy, clear-cut, and simple to classify‚ and rather than change this notion when confronted with claims to the contrary they just rage when someone observes something that conflicts with the model. 21:17:43 after that, no pajama day 21:17:45 pikhq: yep 21:17:54 kmc: that sounds like a hoax 21:17:59 pikhq: and gender *seems* very simple if you don't personally have to deal with any of the corner cases 21:18:20 i certainly didn't appreciate how complicated it is until about 5 years ago 21:18:32 b_jonas: maybe. I heard it from a friend who works with a HR person who used to be HR at Google 21:18:40 it's probably exaggerated at least 21:18:59 Knowing Google, I practically guarantee at least _one_ person actually did that. 21:19:05 yeah 21:19:09 Our team had an (optional) "formal Friday" a handful of times. 21:19:11 It probably wasn't widespread though. 21:19:24 fizzie: I advise you read scrollback 21:19:31 pikhq: no, I mean they wouldn't make the mistake of advertising it as "wear what you wear to bed" without disclaimers 21:19:52 Granted 21:20:31 the question is, what were the consequences of showing up naked, apart from a probable escort from the campus. 21:20:40 imode: they got free Google swag to wear for the day. 21:20:47 the idea of working somewhere with a dress code is much less horrifying now that I can wear girl clothes 21:20:52 girl clothes are so much more interesting 21:20:53 that's incentivizing nudity. 21:22:20 indeed 21:22:55 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:23:06 honestly from the stories I've heard about people's first few months (and last) at positions in Google, I wouldn't be surprised that someone took that a little far. 21:23:50 had a friend of a friend who worked at FB. they got into a probation program the first week for not showing up, and then coasted the next 5 months until they were fired, but secured an offer one month prior to firing. 21:23:53 and did the same damn thing. 21:26:21 at one point during university, I attended some lectures in SZTAKI. its building has the dress code of long pants required. 21:26:53 is it dog friendly, and does the dress code apply to animals. 21:27:06 I don't know, I've never seen dogs in there 21:28:21 also at my previous job we had some special events where the interns, after a quarter year long internship, give a short presentation about what they did at the company. that event required formal clothes. they forgot to tell me before the first time they held that event. I never went to the rest of them after that. 21:28:47 formal dress is stupid. 21:29:12 ++ 21:29:28 I don't think formal dress is stupid, but requiring it for that event is stupid 21:30:36 requiring the commonly used formal dress for many events is stupid, I’d specify 21:31:05 yeah, there's only a certain set of events imo that it's appropriate for. 21:31:15 and even then that's probably just cultural conditioning. 21:31:16 such as your own wedding 21:31:28 or a wedding where you're an offical 21:31:50 remind me to mandate crocs at my wedding. 21:32:26 we had that at school rrr (not university, *that* would be the worst and I’d not go there at all, then) 21:32:38 wedding I’m not sure 21:33:20 arseniiv: crocs mandated at school? 21:33:50 or is "rrr" some kind of event, like a prom? 21:34:14 so atm I don’t have any suits, formal pants and white shirts etc., though the tie remains in the closed 21:34:19 b_jonas: er no 21:34:27 I mean there was a uniform 21:34:52 I consider that much worse 21:35:00 a uniform, as opposed to just ordinary formal clothes 21:35:09 because you can choose the formal clothes to whatever you like 21:35:20 but for a uniform, you have much fewer choice 21:35:48 I do have formal clothes, but I haven't worn them since a friend's wedding in I think 2014 21:36:39 this is the advantage of being a software guy with no people skills who thus never meets clients 21:37:29 hmm no, 21:37:36 imode: are you getting married? 21:37:37 actually I haven't worn it since my brother's wedding in 2013 21:37:42 the other wedding was in 2012 21:37:46 kmc: next year, yeah. 21:38:16 woo! 21:38:19 congratulations 21:38:19 oh nice 21:38:25 I got married once, 10/10 highly recommend 21:38:35 so you're talking about an actual wedding, not just hypothetically 21:38:42 gracias! 21:38:44 will the wedding be outside? because crocs could be inconvenient 21:39:13 lmao, I'm waiting on the results from a job interview before we bother planning. it's been 10 years, so we figured we'd tie the knot. 21:41:06 it'll probably be a small thing along the coast. our families suck, sans our immediate family. 21:41:18 will people dance in crocs? 21:41:26 if I have my way, yes. 21:41:52 kmc: 10/10 highly recommend => lol 21:42:27 we didn't do a full blown wedding, though 21:42:36 private ceremony? 21:42:38 got married under the dome at sf city hall 21:42:41 one witness 21:42:49 was kind of a spur of the moment thing 21:42:50 that's the way to go. my sister did that. 21:43:34 I don’t understand weddings with a crowd of people too 21:44:06 we were already promised to each other for life but didn't feel the need to make it official until 2015 when some personal shit went down 21:44:39 the most immediate reason was that she wanted to be legally allowed to make decisions for me if I ended up in the hospital again 21:45:03 so getting officially married was a practical thing, but has turned out to be more emotionally significant than either of us expected 21:45:16 we had already been living together for 4 years 21:46:06 the weddings with big parties are fun, at least if you're not the one organizing and paying for it 21:46:14 i was maid of honor at my best friend's destination wedding in mexico 21:46:16 it was a blast 21:46:51 Read some of the scrollback. TBH, the "mentally ill" part is really hard to accept as unrelated to the preceding conversation, given the timing and context. I think it's also a comment we wouldn't mind classifying as unacceptable, so please don't do that sort of thing. 21:46:54 that sounds awesome. and yeah, a lot of people get married for that reason and that reason only. that's a large motivation for us as well: we'll probably have an "official ceremony" and then have the actual wedding after it, mainly for insurance purposes. 21:48:28 fizzie: if you parse it that way, sure, I won't say that. bear in mind it was about something on QuakeNet. 21:49:07 imode: is the crocs thing because you or your partner have a family member who you really want to keep away from the wedding, but you don't dare to just refuse to invite them, so you make a rule that they'll never comply with, and rather not attend the wedding than wear crocs for it? 21:49:22 or is it to just keep most people away in general, to make the wedding smaller, without any specific target? 21:49:34 more of a parody of what one considers formal attire. 21:49:36 fizzie: After saying "them" to refer to me after my pronouns were made very clear, I think it is pretty unambiguous what imode's intent was. Particularly in context. 21:50:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:53:14 the latest xkcd uses "AM". that's weird 21:53:41 especially considering launches are 24h. 21:54:19 after https://www.xkcd.com/1179/ that is 22:03:11 (BTW in any case anybody wouldn’t like what personal pronoun I’d use please tell me explicitly, by PM or not, as I would likely been just forgotten or hadn’t watched with attention; so there be no feelings hurt) 22:03:49 arseniiv: Innocent mistakes are perfectly fine, FWIW 22:03:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:04:00 * pikhq uses she/her 22:12:55 * kmc is she/her as well 22:13:43 imode: yeah, my friends did the official, legal wedding in SF with a small group of friends and then the bigger wedding in mexico for extended friends and family, the following year 22:13:59 for one I think maybe it's tricky to get a US marriage certificate if you're married in a foreign country 22:14:46 some channels have a bot that lets you set/query pronouns, which is kind of nice 22:14:51 what... 22:15:00 why is it tricky to get a marriage certificate? 22:15:09 cause the wedding happened in a foreign country? 22:15:12 i'm not sure though 22:15:14 just speculating 22:15:51 in california anybody can officiate a wedding after filling out a form. so the first wedding in SF was done by our friend, wearing a pope costume he got off of Amazon 22:16:22 afterwards we grilled steaks and drank to the wee hours 22:16:40 that sounds blissful. 22:16:44 In Colorado the parties to a marriage are the only required signatures. 22:16:44 it was great 22:17:20 my wife and I are thinking about doing a wedding-style celebration maybe next year, for our 5th anniversary 22:17:30 though it happens to be right around my grandma's 100th birthday so we don't want to upstage her 22:17:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:17:42 make it a combo! :P 22:18:09 in california the marriage form doesn't ask for gender (now that same-sex marriage is legal) but there is a box for each partner (only two partners allowed, sadly) to optionally check "husband" or "wife" 22:18:18 as far as I know those checkboxes have no official meaning 22:18:34 only one partner can check? 22:18:38 and they're just on there to satisfy traditionalists 22:18:42 no, each partner can check either 22:18:44 I'd have to doublecheck, but I think CO just completely removed them from the form 22:18:46 ah, better 22:19:24 part of me thinks poly marriage should be legal but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely 22:19:41 most of the rights of marriage can also be established through contract law 22:20:08 the privilege of not having to testify against your spouse can't, but it's also pretty weak from what I understand 22:20:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:20:19 kmc: but the other part of me thinks the government should get out of the marriage game entirely => me exactly 22:20:22 I should think having "husband" and "wife" on the form would be unnecessary, although maybe it would be helpful if you have a formal ceremony, I don't know 22:20:40 I think that poly marriage should be legal if everyone involved is in agreement with it. 22:20:50 for example what if I trust a close friend but have no soulmate and suddenly fall ill 22:21:16 I mean, this should be signed as easily 22:21:23 zzo38: I think you'd also need forms for adding or removing partners from a poly marriage 22:21:43 eventually a marriage may outlive all of the founders! 22:22:00 kmc: Yes, if it is something which you will want to be recognized by government, then it will be needed. 22:22:07 so it should be a separate procedure, applicable likely to any trusted people: relatives, friends, neighboors 22:22:20 poly divorce law sounds like a quite complicated area that will probably exist one day 22:22:24 arseniiv: you can do that 22:22:29 power of attorney or something 22:22:57 attorneys have superpowers? 22:23:01 kmc: yeah it seems less easy as wedding :D so it should be refactored out 22:23:05 That is mainly the reason I was thinking it is too difficult to implement legal poly marriage right away, due to the difficulty with the existing laws. But, it should be corrected, if possible. 22:25:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has changed nick to Lord_of_Life_. 22:25:38 I know someone who was preparing to sue for recognition of poly civil partnership under the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal 22:25:50 she had lawyers ready to do it pro bono and everything 22:25:59 The form might need a section to mark if you automatically consent in future too, in case you have one or more other spouses already and you do not want to deal with it when further spouses are added, everyone else who doesn't automatically consent in future (at least one is required, but by default it is everyone who must agree to it) to add a further spouse. 22:25:59 but then she broke up with her partners :/ 22:26:24 kmc: I think most of the regulars here knew her at one point :P 22:26:31 pikhq: yeah. 22:27:12 zzo38: I would think all partners should explicitly consent when somebody is added 22:27:38 but that's based on my personal conception of poly marriage and not necessarily something that should be legally enshrined 22:27:45 Yeah. Legal bonds with non-consenting individuals is a bit fucky 22:27:50 It sounds like what this needs is a blockchain and smart contracts hth 22:27:57 lol 22:28:21 kmc: Yes, I think so too, but sometimes someone might not want to deal with it if they are unable to. So, not dealing with it should only be if you agree ahead of time that someone else can agree for you ahead of time, or if you are dead. 22:28:24 I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed 22:28:33 fizzie: and cloud technology too 22:28:43 hm are there schemes for a shared secret that allow expanding the set of participants? 22:28:57 But normally, yes, all current partners (and also the new one) should explicitly consent when somebody is added. 22:29:01 in other words a corporation where each member has the same rights 22:29:40 arseniiv: good question 22:29:44 perhaps ##crypto knows 22:29:54 If you use secret sharing crypotography, and the number of members needed to decrypt does not change, then it is easy to add additional members, I think. 22:30:16 zzo38: probably 22:30:21 you would pick additional points on the same polynomial 22:30:45 I don't think that works 22:30:48 I think marriage as a graph should be transitively closed => and symmetrically too? It would get weird if not, or that state wouldn’t be achievable starting with trans. sym. closed marriages? 22:31:00 who would compute the information without revealing the secret? 22:31:06 afaik a k-of-n shamir share is n points from a (k+1)-dimensional polynomial, over an appropriate field 22:31:08 without learning the secret that is 22:31:23 b_jonas: any quorum could do it 22:31:44 if you have a quorum then you can solve for the polynomial 22:31:50 I don't know how you pick which points to share. 22:32:04 random, I guess. 22:32:13 (damn, f.lux has gone red and I don’t see text cursor again. A bug in calculating opposite color, I think) 22:34:21 One kind of secret sharing could be you have a secret point, and each member has an equation for a line that passes through that point. The secret point can be found by any two members. Also it means any two members can add a third by making up a new equation of a line passing through that point. If you are careful then it should be unlikely to match someone else's line. 22:34:21 d'oh 22:36:05 zzo38: ah, maybe that’s how Shamir scheme was invented? First, hyperplanes, and then a bit or generalization and bam 22:36:34 s/or/of 22:38:12 hyperplanes grassmannians plücker coordinates 22:39:10 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 22:41:39 kmc: don't you mean a degree k-1 polynomial, on a field with at least n elements? 22:41:46 i dunno 22:41:54 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:41:56 I think the field should have lots of elements? 22:42:03 David Madore's crowning achievement on the IOCCC is relevant of course 22:42:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:42:47 for starters, the secret itself is a field element 22:44:04 kmc: no, you can split the secret to multiple chunks, each a field element 22:44:26 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 22:44:39 in particular, David Madore's program uses a 256 element field, and the comments claim that that works for up to 255 parties 22:44:46 b_jonas: ok 22:44:47 hm 22:45:56 https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/24983/choosing-finite-field-size-in-shamirs-secret-sharing-scheme 22:46:26 I dunnoooo 22:46:50 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:48:07 I'd trust that that scheme works, both because it comes from David Madore with docs, and because it's won an IOCCC 22:50:23 `perl -esub h($){($_=$_[0]=pack b208,0 .unpack b362,$_[0])=~tr/\0-\c?/\0/;tr/\0/\377/c;$_}do{$y=$r;$v=join$r='',a..z;$r^=h$r&"\217"x26^h$v&$y for 0..6;$r^=$_ x26}for"k6sNP2B}({ambrusLB%Ox)Z]n0*zf\0I3"=~/./g;print$r 22:50:24 Just another Perl hacker, 22:51:22 this is an old one from https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 that evaluates a polynomial over GF(128), before that IOCCC entry has won, but a decade after David wrote that program 22:51:30 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 22:52:42 admittedly GF(128) makes it a bit simpler than GF(256) would be 22:52:47 so it can only encode ASCII characters 22:54:47 whaaaaaaaaaat. 22:55:00 am I crazy, or does "cp/m" as an address resolve to "cp.com/m" 22:55:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:55:59 I think it doesn't 22:56:00 imode: browsers have an option to automatically add ".com" if the domain name doesn't exist otherwise 22:56:20 only when you type into the address bar, not in a link 22:56:39 it's only for two characters. o_O 22:56:46 "foo/bar" doesn't work. 22:56:56 but "fo/bar" does. 22:57:19 they can also automatically prepend www. and prepend http:// 22:57:21 What I prefer is something typed into the address bar is just treated as a relative URL to the current URL, unless it has a colon at first in which case it is a search command 22:57:47 that I understand. what I don't understand is why it only apparently works with two letters. 22:58:04 Some browsers will automatically prepend the scheme based on what the domain name is. (Still, I think it ought not to automatically prepend any scheme.) 22:58:27 nevermind, it somehow works with _multiple_ character strings. 22:58:33 abc/def works, for example. 22:58:41 that is bizzare! 22:59:27 it won't do "google/" though 23:18:25 is it weird that "rose" is used as a color name, when roses are popular flowers that come in all colors you can imagine, sort of like diamonds? 23:18:40 or tulips 23:19:11 I mean, "orange" as a color name makes sense 23:36:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:37:12 -!- tromp has joined. 23:41:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 2019-10-06: 00:11:56 did you know that 'pink' is also named after a flower? 00:12:00 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianthus_plumarius 00:12:31 at least accoring to some 00:12:36 as well as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinking_shears 00:34:54 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:38:24 -!- tromp has joined. 00:43:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:50:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:56:33 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:01:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:08:38 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:49:30 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66478&oldid=66468 * TwilightSparkle * (+4217) /* Examples */ 01:57:33 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66479&oldid=66478 * TwilightSparkle * (-50) 02:00:17 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66480&oldid=66479 * TwilightSparkle * (+17) /* Constants */ 02:05:50 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:06:16 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:20:22 `hurl bin/8ball 02:20:24 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/8ball 02:20:59 hum that's the wrong one 02:23:52 * pikhq waves 02:24:11 hello pikhq 02:24:18 What a day, what a day 02:24:44 i'm not uplogged yet 02:24:59 oic 02:26:26 -!- tromp has joined. 02:30:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:00:11 now i am 03:06:51 ic 03:10:21 -!- imode has joined. 03:14:01 i note that personal pronouns were involved both here and in the current stackexchange clusterfuck 03:15:55 `? them 03:15:57 them? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:16:09 `wisdom them 03:16:11 ​the them//Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons. 03:17:03 * oerjan carefully sidles away from his own brain 03:19:17 * pikhq notes that personal pronouns tend to be, well, important to people 03:19:35 * oerjan agrees with qwwem 03:21:19 Who? 03:21:28 with you 03:21:33 -_- 03:22:27 * oerjan may not have sidled far enough 03:22:58 Let's just say that was rather rude of you and leave it at that 03:23:43 my brain has trouble thinking of pronouns seriously now 03:26:45 but i've been half thinking that the sane long-term solution for english is for everyone to standardize on they/them/their, which make your protest against it sort of a mind whiplash. although i can understand how it can still be rude if someone uses it _only_ for non-cis gendered people 03:26:56 *makes 03:28:06 yeah 03:28:22 that is the main case where 'they' would bother me 03:28:30 ^ 03:28:39 I sometimes use "they" for anyone, regardless of who they are, anyways 03:28:53 i think i'd be okay with someone who used 'they' for everyone 03:29:03 although the last time this actually came up, I was not okay with it 03:29:04 Really a matter of context making me go "uuuuh" 03:29:19 but that's for complicated reasons arising from personal trauma and i wasn't really being fair to that person anyway 03:31:12 it took me a long time to accept that it's okay to think in principle that gender is stupid and should go away, and yet to be assertive about my own gender identity 03:31:20 it's one of those ideal world vs real world things 03:32:28 the whole thing has been really humbling as far as learning what i can and can't change about myself 03:33:05 transitioning is a huge change but it's something we do because we *can't* change who we really are 03:33:40 At a certain point you just get done pretending to be someone else. 03:33:45 yeah 03:34:17 I think most trans people would much prefer to take a magic pill that makes you happy with your birth gender, but it doesn't exist 03:34:38 I don't think I would take that pill, personally 03:34:53 (which ironically? makes me "fake trans" to a lot of people, because they can only see this experience through the lens of misery) 03:35:04 It sounds easier. But at the same time, that's a radical change in who you are as a person. 03:35:05 i mean for one I think that pill would have to change my personality a whole lot 03:35:15 and also well, being trans /is/ very interesting 03:35:33 and like I'm in a pretty good position to transition compared to most 03:35:51 and I'm some sort of extreme neophile 03:35:53 and i've always been a transhumanist 03:36:10 * pikhq is honestly a big ol' scaredy cat :P 03:36:18 lol 03:36:19 I'm both 03:36:29 like, it was really hard for me to start making permanent changes to my body 03:36:34 which is v. ironic 03:36:44 Sometimes it isn't clear if you mean singular or plural, so then you shouldn't use "they" (or sometimes also "you", which is also grammatically plural but can also be used singular). 03:36:55 Y'know what's hard? _Shopping_. 03:37:19 zzo38: In such a case it's probably simplest to just rephrase to avoid the use of a pronoun. 03:37:24 (Fortunately, Wizards of the Coast considered that ambiguity when making that change in Magic: the Gathering, so that the ambiguity is avoided.) 03:37:31 Said cases aren't very common, but that's basic writing, ain't it? 03:37:47 pikhq: Yes, that is correct, and is what is done in Magic: the Gathering in those few cases. 03:37:51 [[Talk:Brachylog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66481 * A * (+1149) Created page with "== Brachylog is not a declarative language == Since Brachylog and Prolog are based on similar paradigms, this proof demonstrates that Prolog is technically not a declarative l..." 03:38:11 [[Talk:Brachylog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66482&oldid=66481 * A * (+31) /* Brachylog is not a declarative language */ 03:38:16 (Although there are different ways of doing so. The rules for Magic: the Gathering say "that player" is used if "they" is ambiguous.) 03:38:35 Reasonable within that context. 03:38:43 Yes, in that context, it is reasonable. 03:38:49 In other contexts, there is other ways. 03:39:05 e.g. if it's ambiguous in other cases you can just use someone's name. 03:39:27 Like you would if there's multiple "he"s or "she"s and you need to be clear who you're talking about. 03:39:35 Yes, in the cases where their name is known (and not itself ambiguous, which in rare cases it can be). 03:39:46 Language! 03:39:56 Always so fuzzy around the edges 03:41:24 I have no problem with singular "they", but I don't like singular "themselves". (The singular should be "themself", like for "you", it will be "yourself" as singular rather than "yourselves", I think.) 03:42:10 I think the jury's out on which one is the grammatical one there. 03:42:37 pikhq: Yes, those language always so fuzzy around the edges, is also one of the reason why I don't like Inform7 so much, and also a reason for why I have thought to have a AST-based format for the effect of Magic: the Gathering cards. 03:43:18 pikhq: Yes, people use both, although I personally don't like to write "themselves" if it is singular. 03:43:36 * pikhq shrugs 03:44:20 "Themselves" still sounds cleaner to my internal sense of things, but that's probably nothing more than pattern matching doing weird things. 03:44:59 Yes, probably, I think 03:45:36 (That is probably why many people use that, I think) 03:45:38 Honestly, I still have a soft spot in my heart for Spivak pronouns. 03:51:24 yeah 03:51:26 well, we'll see 03:51:38 right now it's hard enough to get people to accept singular 'they' 03:51:51 even though it goes back to shakespeare if not earlier 03:53:05 pikhq: you don't like shopping? 03:53:35 Though there is one (honestly minor) difference between historical and modern use. Historical singular "they" was for an indefinite referent; modern singular "they" extends to definite ones. 03:54:00 pikhq: meaning that the use to refer to a specific person is new? 03:54:03 kmc: I like shopping, and since I'm still boy-mode much of the time, am terrified of being caught in public doing so 03:54:04 Yes 04:15:36 I have a few question about conlang. One is if you have made fonts for constructed languages (with METAFONT or otherwise; for printer fonts I would probably use METAFONT if I were doing so)? Do some involve sounds not in IPA or X-SAMPA? Are there some with multiple mouth? Are there some with unusual writing directions (e.g. circular or 3D)? 04:16:35 There is also Z-SAMPA, but might any involve stuff not in Z-SAMPA? What effects might physiology have on phonology? 04:17:14 pikhq: ah, I see 04:17:31 I noticed that Z-SAMPA uses some Italian words that are used in musical notation. 04:17:55 zzo38: I've never done so, but this is an interesting thing to think about. 04:18:13 A conlang for non-human physiology seems like a space ripe for some interesting experiments. 04:18:45 pikhq: a nice thing happened to me today 04:18:55 I helped a guy use the parking meter in my neighborhood and he said "wow, you're tall!" several times and at the end thanked me for being a "nice girl" 04:19:03 Aww. :) 04:19:34 and I didn't even put in particular effort today to look female 04:19:42 i was wearing jeans and a men's cut T-shirt 04:20:55 so apparently the other stuff (hair, glasses, jewelry, tits?) is enough to overcome the fact that I'm a really really tall woman, at least for some 04:21:14 (6'3", specifically) 04:21:33 I mean, if being tall were a problem my entire family would have issues. 04:21:40 My mom's 5'10". She's the short one. 04:21:55 it doesn't help, but it's not a dealbreaker 04:25:20 I looked at information about Z-SAMPA, and they mention alternative non-ASCII characters for 8-bit character sets, although there are different 8-bit character sets so you may wish to do differently, such as PC character set. 04:26:05 (Another possibility might be a variant with colours.) 04:27:46 About non-human physiology, one thing I thought is that colour words might be untranslatable (although that is a separate issue from phonology, but it is still a part of the language). 04:28:41 * pikhq nods 04:28:54 In some cases, only translatable by analogy I suppose. 04:29:35 Yes 04:31:06 Though in truth -- color words are sometimes hard to translate even from human languages. 04:32:00 Yes, although in the case I am describing it is even more difficult, I think. 04:33:01 I imagine you're thinking of a species that either has a wider vision range, or (even more difficult) has a vision range that doesn't overlap with ours. 04:33:26 I found a article on Wikipedia about untranslatability. 04:33:34 Though even just having different sensitivity peaks within our vision range probably does odd things to color perception. 04:33:49 pikhq: Yes, the former; I didn't think of the latter although of course there is that too. 04:40:51 pikhq: I didn't think of that either, but that is also a good point. 06:22:23 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:30:30 -!- tromp has joined. 06:32:50 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 07:25:14 [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66483&oldid=66171 * A * (+1303) /* Sandbox */ 07:46:16 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:51:30 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:04:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:18:06 -!- tromp_ has joined. 08:18:07 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:31:01 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:41:07 [[Talk:Brainloller]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66484 * MiroslavRD * (+610) Created page with "Braincoaster --~~~~" 08:41:37 kmc: fuchsia and lavender are named of flowers too 08:42:11 [[Brainfrick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66485 * MiroslavRD * (+23) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]] 08:42:37 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66486&oldid=66314 * MiroslavRD * (+12) 09:17:06 -!- FreeFull has joined. 09:27:29 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66487&oldid=66477 * AnimaLibera * (+51) 09:41:24 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66488&oldid=63077 * TwilightSparkle * (+1464) /* List of candidates */ 09:55:07 do we disqualify that featured language candidate because TwilightSparkle didn't read the instructions at the top of that page? 09:59:31 hi b_jonas 10:02:34 nah, let's give her a little more time, in case she realizes her mistake and edits 10:02:38 or reads the channel 10:04:51 I should suggest nopfunge as a featured language 10:05:30 i said i would make twitter-sized cryptoquotes, i just have to figure out how 10:05:53 what do you mean by "cryptoquote"? 10:06:06 a quote where it's hard to tell where the quote comes from? 10:06:11 sometimes called cryptics 10:06:19 in the newspaper 10:06:31 they are quotes 10:06:58 that are encrypted with a simple substitution cipher 10:07:18 turns out, easier to break than make 10:08:21 26! possible ciphers 10:08:59 26! = 403291461126605635584000000 10:09:20 and there are so many quotes 10:10:48 ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;for$c(0..rand(25)){y/A-Za-z/B-ZAb-za/};print' 10:10:48 930) Gur bgure qnl (jryy, gur bgure jrrx) zl jvsr jnf naablrq jvgu zr orpnhfr fur unq n qernz jurer V unq tbggra hf cynar gvpxrgf vagb n #rfbgrevp zrrg fbzrjurer va gur zvqqyr bs Terraynaq va gur jvagre, jvgubhg nfxvat ure svefg. Cyhf fur jnfa'g ernyyl vagrerfgrq va n #rfbgrevp zrrg ng nyy, yrg nybar bar va Terraynaq, yrg nybar bar va Terraynaq va jvagregvzr. (V guvax vg'f xvaq bs pbyq gurer?) 10:10:54 oh, arbitrary substitution one 10:10:58 that's better 10:12:12 ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;use List::Util"shuffle";$c=join("",shuffle("a".."z"));eval"y/a-zA-Z/$c\U$c/";print' 10:12:13 848) Scj B lq vlabnc Cvgdbjf jhclxck, iua ba bj Elvlmblv Cvgdbjf, vza Ikbabjf Cvgdbjf. 10:12:15 ``` \' | perl -e'$/="";$_=<>;use List::Util"shuffle";$c=join("",shuffle("a".."z"));eval"y/a-zA-Z/$c\U$c/";print' 10:12:16 262) JDS ejb HS'PP JS MNAS WQ UBBKESIWUPPD FSIWKQI DQNA IKBZ QGWSI 10:12:32 the "38" is sort of a giveaway 10:13:30 famous quotes, not chat room quotes... 10:14:00 or just use the substitution that turns the quote to alphabetically the first, for canonicity 10:14:20 so you take the first letter to "a", the second unique letter to "b" etc 10:15:08 just as easy to break 10:27:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:41:06 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:01:42 the last o strip was 12 days ago. time to upload the next one. 11:33:00 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66489&oldid=66480 * A * (+59) /* Constants */ 11:38:37 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66490&oldid=66489 * A * (+19) /* Constants */ 11:39:48 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66491&oldid=66490 * A * (+8) /* Constants */ 11:52:02 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:54:17 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:54:30 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66492&oldid=66491 * A * (+1520) /* Constants */ 11:54:37 -!- Camto[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:54:40 -!- ivzem[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:54:43 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:54:43 -!- wmww has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:55:13 -!- GeekDude has joined. 11:57:52 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66493&oldid=66492 * A * (+292) /* Constants */ 12:01:53 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66494&oldid=66493 * A * (+253) /* Constants */ 12:02:27 -!- Camto[m] has joined. 12:07:32 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66495&oldid=66494 * A * (+1019) /* Constants */ 12:15:44 [[No-code esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66496&oldid=46931 * MiroslavRD * (+20) It's a stub, and this wiki is extremely inactive. 12:25:05 -!- wmww has joined. 12:25:06 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 12:25:06 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 12:25:13 -!- ivzem[m] has joined. 12:33:56 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66497&oldid=66495 * A * (+3276) /* Constants */ Thanks! 12:42:02 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:44:57 -!- ineiros has joined. 13:04:57 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:05:48 -!- ineiros has joined. 13:30:07 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:44:08 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:45:32 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66498&oldid=66488 * TwilightSparkle * (+52) 13:52:21 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66499&oldid=66497 * TwilightSparkle * (+0) /* Constants */ 13:54:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:55:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:03:43 [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66500&oldid=66499 * A * (+119) 14:11:48 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:23:39 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66501&oldid=66500 * TwilightSparkle * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */ Very 11+1< 14:32:50 -!- IrYki3ll3 has joined. 14:33:48 -!- IrYki3ll3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:28:34 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:29:10 -!- tromp has joined. 15:34:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:37:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:37:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:38:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:42:11 -!- tromp has joined. 15:47:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:00:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 16:01:19 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:02:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:02:43 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Client Quit). 16:03:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:11:52 [[PL/MIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66502&oldid=57562 * B jonas * (-306) 16:12:26 fizzie: wiki notification bot missed my edit 16:17:43 ah no 16:17:48 it's just late 16:25:49 [ 0.0254*12#.6 7 NB. how long is 6 foot and 7 inches? 16:25:50 b_jonas: 2.0066 16:33:11 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:02:33 [[User:MiroslavRD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66503&oldid=66230 * MiroslavRD * (+33) 17:03:23 -!- hakatashi has joined. 17:04:13 -!- hakatashi1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:36:24 `8ball Does fungot give better life advice than a Magic 8-ball? 17:36:24 b_jonas: forcer says: would " to give somebody something" or " gregor arr"... sort of tripping point is that satisfaction of predicate should be the default. 17:36:24 It is certain. 17:37:26 [[User:MiroslavRD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66504&oldid=66503 * MiroslavRD * (+883) 17:38:22 fungot, please move the mouse cursor away so it doesn't cover your answer 17:38:22 b_jonas: they're expensive. 17:38:33 what? mouses? no they aren't 17:40:08 must be the cursors then, not the mice. 17:41:32 Or answers. 17:42:43 * pikhq sells prime mouse cursors; only $50 per pixel 17:42:44 the tripping point 17:43:55 [[Blyat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66505 * MiroslavRD * (+201) Created page with "'''Blyat''' is a modded Cyrillic++ just to use CS:GO meme terms instead of normal code. [[Category:Stubs]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Weirdlangs]] Category:Turing-co..." 17:44:03 pikhq: didn't that happen? 17:44:21 [[Blyat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66506&oldid=66505 * MiroslavRD * (+29) 17:44:59 pikhq: close enough, I think: http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/ 17:45:55 (wow that looks so terrible) 17:45:56 :) 17:46:23 Pretty awesome bit though. 17:48:22 That was 2005. Time's passing so quickly. 17:49:58 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Million_Dollar_Homepage#Survival ... there are "studies" about this page! 17:50:15 Time is an illusion that helps things make sense... :) 17:55:49 [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66507 * MiroslavRD * (+5479) Created page with "'''Human's mind have sex with someone''' is a stupid Brainfuck, where it uses unabbreviated commands instead of abbreviated symbols. == Commands == * Move the pointer to the..." 17:56:20 Uh-huh... 17:58:06 b_jonas: ^^ this is your time to shine with another rant. 17:58:27 BF derivatives aren't clever? :) 17:58:28 [[Human's mind have sex with someone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66508&oldid=66507 * MiroslavRD * (+133) 18:00:03 Let's wait for the inevitable quine, I mean program that prints its own source code. 18:01:05 int-e: huh? why? just because it's a brainfuck-derivative? 18:02:12 b_jonas: yes 18:04:35 int-e: ok. my usual rant is that while those supposed esoteric languages are stupid, the wiki is serving its originally intended purpose that it's attracting people away from places that we want those people to spam less, like wikipedias. 18:05:22 a language with the semantics of Ook! and the syntax of Real fast Nora's is not particularly innovative, but it makes more sense than some of the "languages" that people write pages about 18:05:50 at least it's well-defined enough that you could write programs in it, if the aliens with the big guns demanded that from you 18:15:38 -!- MDude has joined. 18:24:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:24:48 oddly, the BF derivative shovelware ended up serving a "useful" purpose, in that CGCC started writing polyglots with all the syntax-substituted brainfucks 18:25:30 that's not a useful purpose, and it's not like they were going to run out of languages usable for programming 18:26:00 the megapolyglot often seems to be on the verge of running out of languages that can be made to fit 18:26:19 oh, you mean that one]\ 18:26:25 not just smaller polyglots 18:26:26 ok 18:27:22 right, the esolangs.org community is thinking "surely we have enough BF derivatives already?", and CGCC has fit in 277 languages into a polyglot and thus is often on the verge of running out 18:27:38 BF substitutions tend to be easy to fit in due to having simple semantics and ignoring most of the program 18:28:35 and that 277 includes a lot of very closely related languages, such as slightly different Haskell command lines 18:30:53 yeah, some people on code golf count python1 as a separate programming language from python2 18:35:24 random observations from my vacation to NRW. in Dortmund, there's an U-Bahn (tube, metro) station where there's a platform on both sides of the train, the train doors open on both sides at the same time, people get on on one side and off on the other side. this is an interesting solution for a high traffic stop that I hadn't seen anywhere else. I like it. 18:35:30 everyone should according to their rules 18:35:56 their definition of a "language" is very precise, things like the Windows version of Perl 5.26 and the Linux version of Perl 5.26 are different languages… 18:36:15 although the rules end up breaking down when you take them to the logical extremes, most people other than me avoid those 18:37:11 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:37:31 well sure. I've worked with perl on windows, including trying to port my own script from windows-native perl to msys perl. perl is so incompatible with itself that you can consider any version a different version from itself. 18:39:33 like, there used to be a windows-specific bug in perl when you called glob with multiple arguments 18:40:13 and it's not just about the parts that are different because they access some functionality where the underlying system calls work differently 18:40:35 didn't old versions of Perl implement glob using the shell? 18:41:08 yes, old ones did 18:41:15 using tcsh I think 18:42:20 "Netscape Navigator 9 with JavaScript disabled" 18:42:30 (actual language inside the polyglot) 18:47:55 what makes it strange is how new contributors test the code in all those weird languages 18:48:43 I pretty much gave up once it got past the scope of what TIO could handle 18:52:46 have they added a pair of languages that are two very similar versions of a 90s game console, and the difference between them is detected from the timing of the sound chip or the diskette drive, so you can only test it on real hardware with an eprom cart, because the emulator doesn't emulate the speed of different diskette drives realistically? 18:52:53 s/emulator/emulators/ 18:54:45 no 18:54:55 actually there's a surprising lack of machine codes 18:55:04 (there's at least one, but you'd expect more) 18:55:14 I think there's a desire not to add any languages with a hard size limit 18:55:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 18:55:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:55:52 even when the hard size limit is larger than the 32 kilobyte or 64 kilobyte post size limit of SE? 18:57:41 we could always start compressing it in the post 18:57:52 yeah 18:58:07 SE allows "Stack Snippets" which are basically a TC post syntax (based on JavaScript), and they're already being used to collapse the polyglots to save space on the page 18:58:35 so as long as you can compress it and the post to less than the post size - decompressor size, it should be OK 18:58:50 -!- RainbowRabbit has joined. 19:00:21 sup 19:00:42 -!- RainbowRabbit has left. 19:03:28 wow, RainbowRabbit left quickly 19:03:40 normally on IRC you have to wait a bit if you want to see whether anyone's around 19:05:02 in Köln, in the city center, lampposts were coated with what feels like some sort of silicone substance, probably against grafitti 19:07:05 also, in Dortmund, everything is closed on Sunday, which is pretty annoying to me 19:08:33 Sunday rules in the UK are weird 19:08:46 major/large shops are not allowed to open more than 8 hours on a Sunday 19:08:51 we had about a year when we had government rules for Sunday too 19:08:54 but they got reverted 19:08:54 but small shops can open for as long as they like 19:08:56 luckily 19:09:04 major supermarkets often have small spinoffs to get around this rule 19:09:26 yeah, I think we had exceptions for small shops too 19:11:17 I think that was the rule because it matched their stated purpose with the rule, which was to protect workers who may not want to work on Sunday but were too powerless against their employees -- though people believed there was a less obvious selfish political purpose in the backgroun 19:11:39 s/purpose/agenda/ 19:11:51 Probably historically there was a religious justification to it. 19:12:33 yeah, that was certainly part of what they played for 19:12:39 I think in the UK it was originally a religious thing that got repurposed (without necessarily undermining the original reason) 19:13:09 but I don't think religion has much to do with the general idea that people should have a rest on some days of the week 19:14:09 that's the sort of thing that both religious and anti-religious governments promised because people like it 19:14:27 Some religions do promote it, but it has been fairly common in a wide variety of societies, yeah 19:15:12 right. it's like not murdering people. religions promote it as a rule too, but so do anti-religious people 19:17:24 ah right, we just had an smbc on that 19:20:08 I think the rule should be, avoid making too much noise outside on Sunday. But otherwise you can do stuff if you want to do, just as well as other days of the week. 19:20:59 (With one exception, perhaps: The bells that tell the time on the clock will still be allowed.) 19:22:08 the northern part of Dortmund has an itneresting park/forest hybrid thing. it's more well-tended than the kind of forest I'm used to, but bigger and more closed than a park in the sense that I could easily walk for a while in the middle without seeing anything but trees. 19:22:18 it's quite close to the city center too 19:22:47 was nice but also a little scary in the dark 19:23:08 not like one of those big castle gardens either, too irregular for that 19:35:13 [[User:MiroslavRD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66509&oldid=66504 * MiroslavRD * (+2) 19:36:26 [[User:MiroslavRD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66510&oldid=66509 * MiroslavRD * (+5) 19:42:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:45:11 -!- imode has joined. 19:51:25 [[Here's to the crazy ones]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66511 * MiroslavRD * (+3428) Possibly a normal esolang 19:51:50 [[99 Bottles of Beer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66512 * MiroslavRD * (+32) Redirected page to [[99 bottles of beer]] 19:52:04 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66513&oldid=66359 * MiroslavRD * (+84) 19:52:19 are there music players suitable for children under 3 years of age, in the sense that they're impossible even for an infant to disassemble, too large to try to swallow, and spit-proof? or is that practically impossible because you can't make the contact towards the charger infant-proof? 19:52:49 presumably it would need to have built-in memory rather than a micro-SD card slot 19:52:57 and no display 19:53:10 Macro SD card? 19:53:22 (not an SD card, more like a PCMCIA-sized SD card :)) 19:53:35 pikhq: no no. an infant would bite on that and break it 19:53:54 infant-proofing is harder than vandal-proofing 19:54:18 [[MiroslavRD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66514 * MiroslavRD * (+29) Redirected page to [[User:MiroslavRD]] 19:54:39 [[Talk:MiroslavRD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66515 * MiroslavRD * (+34) Redirected page to [[User talk:MiroslavRD]] 19:54:54 Here's to the crazy ones is a inspiration of Shakespeare Programming Language adjusted to reference Apple's TextEdit icon before Yosemite, saying "Dear Kate, Here's to the crazy ones." ← that sentence has got a close-to-perfectly-balanced ambiguity between Kate as a person's name and Kate as a text editor's name 19:55:07 b_jonas: Fiiine 19:55:08 given that it's Apple, the former is probably more likely, but that depends on context 19:55:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 19:55:50 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[MiroslavRD]]": links to userspace should be clearly marked (see [[Esolang:Policy]]), a redirect from mainspace goes against that 19:56:09 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:MiroslavRD]]": links to userspace should be clearly marked (see [[Esolang:Policy]]), a redirect from mainspace goes against that [talkpage edition] 19:58:56 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66516&oldid=66498 * B jonas * (+0) Instrns at top of page clearly say you should use the same order as on Language List, so 1+ comes first. 20:05:11 [[Talk:Brachylog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66517&oldid=66482 * Ais523 * (+1348) Prolog isn't imperative; it has imperative constructs, but many of its constructs can't easily be converted to imperative equivalents 20:11:18 I'm considering to change my featured language suggestion from Befunge to Nopfunge 20:11:41 despite that I usually don't like counter machines 20:12:52 Nopfunge and Tip are interesting because all the information is stored in the instruction pointer via repeating the program 20:13:03 yeah 20:13:16 Conedy might be like that too, but we don't know if it's powerful enough 20:14:56 Have you seen my new and currently unnamed esolangs? I would want to know what is other people's comment of it. 20:15:20 You could say that they're cheating by storing extra information that doesn't actually determine the instruction in the higher order parts for Nopfunge or the lower order parts for Conedy or Blindfolded Arithmetic 20:15:23 actually, this reminds me of an esolang idea I was working on a while back but never made public because I couldn't get it to work 20:15:57 but the language definitions are natural enough that it doesn't feel like cheating 20:15:59 Which one is that? 20:16:06 it consists of a procedurally generated 3D space with lots of objects in it (like spheres, cubes, rendered 3D ASCII letters, that sort of thing) 20:16:20 a program is simply a point and a direction 20:16:35 interpreted as a ray that bounces off things 20:17:00 raytracing: the esolang. 20:17:10 and all the numbers have infinite precision (somehow, not sure whether rationals or computable reals work better) 20:17:20 ais523: hmm, do we in first place have a language where the contents of the instruction space is a pre-determined infinite one and the program consists of only a bignum instruction pointer for where to start? 20:17:22 I couldn't get it to be TC in a natural way, though 20:17:33 ais523: have you seen "geometric" turing machines? 20:17:44 b_jonas: I don't think so, I might be wrong though 20:17:46 imode: no 20:17:59 ais523: wait, why 3D rather than 2D? 20:18:02 lemme see if I can dig that up. 20:18:14 can't it be turing-complete even if it's 2D? 20:18:27 b_jonas: actually I think even 3 dimensions may be too little 20:18:38 I guess to get such a language, you can just fix a nopfunge program that is a universal machine 20:18:48 the basic problems are related to a) how you store information, b) how you store the program 20:19:39 if you have curved surfaces to bounce off you can effectively define a program via using very minor shifts in the starting position of the ray, that get amplified when bouncing, so that you can take whatever path you like 20:19:56 but a 3D object has a 2D surface, that means you're using up an entire dimension just to store the program 20:19:59 right, so you can have a full oracle in a single finely patterned object 20:20:17 that just reflect the ray to the right direction in a bounded number of steps 20:20:25 possibly even in one step if it needn't be smooth 20:20:30 and the remaining 1 dimension doesn't seem to be usable for anything more data-powerful than a single stack without some really contrived objects 20:21:18 ugh, this dude's stuff is scattered everywhere. 20:21:23 http://lara.inist.fr/bitstream/handle/2332/1001/LIP-RR2004-09.pdf?sequence=1 20:21:27 anyway, I got stuck (primarily on this problem) and never ended up creating a usable language, but that's about as far as I've gotten 20:21:49 he demonstrates a 2 counter automaton. 20:21:53 it's a "signal machine". 20:22:04 ais523: could you make something discrete, like a reversible nopfunge in ten dimensions? 20:22:24 https://arxiv.org/pdf/0906.3225.pdf 20:22:27 it's easy enough to do it if you allow for contrived object fields 20:22:33 more stuff. 20:23:17 like having a universal machine just lying there, or using some sort of space-filling pattern that will contain any particular finite set of objects in any possible arrangement somewhere (assuminig the number of possible object arrangements is countable) 20:23:18 dude essentially forms computations by geometric construction. 20:23:33 all 2D too. 20:23:52 ais523: a universal machine for something much more powerful than turing though 20:24:17 so you could absolutely make it TC, just by having different collision rules for objects. 20:25:26 imode: right, I wanted something like that but more tarpitty 20:25:41 can't get more tarpitty than actual TMs. :P 20:25:49 yes you can 20:25:50 well you probably could now that I think about it.. 20:26:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 20:26:06 keep forgetting the lengths people will go to to make their language unusable. 20:26:25 tag machines are a good example of something generally considered to be simpler than a Turing machine 20:26:39 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:27:01 imode: it's not just deliberately making them unusable, it's natural constructions that happen to be hard to use, or stuff like M:tG that are designed for goals other than general programming 20:27:20 I dunno, Malbolge seems maliciously designed. 20:27:28 along with a host of other languages. 20:27:40 imode: yeah, think of Nopfunge rather than Malbolge or Intercal 20:27:47 Malbolge's kind of a special case, it was intentionally designed to be unusable 20:27:51 and note that Malbolge is old, which is its excuse 20:28:15 b_jonas: well, if you subscribe to the rottytooth school that sees esolang creation as art, the user experience is part of that 20:28:21 doesn't seem rather well thought out considering... ALGOL68. :P 20:28:26 and the theoretical/computational experience is quite different 20:28:31 but also part of that 20:28:46 esolangs designed as esolangs should ideally be interesting in all dimensions 20:28:59 I put a lot of effort into Incident, for example (which is hard to use but at least has interesting reasons for that) 20:29:52 much of my esolang research is more at the computational model end of things, though 20:30:08 in which case the syntax doesn't even really exist, you're just coming up with something to fit it into a computer 20:31:52 I guess my line is "if this language mostly exists to compile into something else, its syntax is not the interesting part" 20:32:11 whereas if the language mostly exists for some other reason, things like the user interface are important 20:32:37 there's an esolang (I've forgotten what it's called) in which there's a time limit on entering each line of the program and you can't use backspace… 20:32:58 right, waterfall model and stackflow are examples where the syntax isn't important 20:33:11 At the very least, esolangs ought to be interesting along some dimension in ways that would otherwise be impractical for a language intended for serious use by _someone_. 20:33:12 ais523: is that one flavored as a magic system in some fantasy universe, the programs being spells? 20:33:37 b_jonas: no, it's flavoured as a terrible IDE 20:33:53 ah yes, those do exist 20:33:56 [[0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66518 * MiroslavRD * (+13304) Created page with "0 is a joke language created by [[User:MiroslavRD|MiroslavRD]]. It is a glitchy [[brainfuck]] derivative. It distorts your code in these ways: * Add unexpected symbols * Re..." 20:34:05 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66519&oldid=66295 * MiroslavRD * (+169) 20:34:37 [[Aleph 0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66520 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 20:34:37 [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66521&oldid=66518 * Ais523 * (-11) unpipe link to userspace 20:36:04 like the door opening keypad at my grandmother's house, which has such a short timeout that it erases my input between when I type the flat number and separator and when I figure out what the four-digit password is 20:36:40 I always get it only on second try, when I have the password cached into my short term memory rather than just use the mnemonic from my long term memory 20:36:57 so stupid, no need to have such a short timeout there 20:37:35 the purpose of a timeout on those things is often to prevent issues where one person leaves information partially entered and then another person uses the keypad, causing all the inputs to be misinterpreted 20:37:51 yes, I agree that there should be a timeout 20:37:57 it's just too short in that case 20:38:00 I've seen mechanical keypads of that nature which, being mechanical, have no timeout; there are often big signs put above them saying "please remember to press cancel before using this keypad" 20:38:05 How short is the timeout? 20:38:23 zzo38: I don't remember, probably like five seconds 20:39:33 ais523: this keypad has a display though, which shows "---" while you're typing the password 20:39:56 this sort of keypad is really common, we have a similar one on this house, and one on my parents' house 20:41:12 the keypad reads digits by shining horizontal and vertical lights a millimeter in front of the keypad, and detecting which row and column of light is interrupted. thus it can only read one key at a time. 20:41:41 it's an interesting way to make a keypad that doesn't break easily from outdoor conditions and deliberate vandalism 20:42:28 couldn't it read two or more keys at a time if they were in the same row or column? 20:42:45 perhaps it could 20:43:05 but I think it's better to detect those as invalid reads 20:44:23 `? resetti 20:44:24 resetti? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:45:47 you could use them as chords to expand the character set of your passwords 20:46:18 ais523: the one at my parent's house already sometimes becomes unusable at winter. or it did before some of the hardware got replaced. so I say no. 20:46:43 if you want to expand password space, just use passwords longer than four digits. 20:47:38 I think four digit passwords is too short. Even if four digit passwords are allowed, the maximum should be more than that, perhaps eight or ten digits. 20:47:54 zzo38: for a house gate, it doesn't really matter 20:48:08 but sure, allowing a longer password is fine 20:48:23 and the hardware these days can allow it easily 20:48:45 for electronic house door openers I mean, not for eg. combination locks 21:01:49 `? electronic monk 21:01:49 electronic monk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:06:16 Electrocuted monk? 21:06:31 pikhq: no. electronic monk, from Douglas Adams. 21:06:54 Bah, humbug. 21:07:06 Go stick your head in a pig. 21:17:57 do someone knows what’s that CRT mania about? 21:18:07 how objective is it 21:18:18 CRT? 21:18:25 `? crt 21:18:26 crt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:18:27 CRT display, I mean 21:19:23 versus modern LCD technologies which there too many are now that I don’t know their betterness relations anymore 21:22:51 b_jonas: I know one electronic monk, it’s called Delay Lama and is very old by now 21:25:56 does he use mercury delay lines? 21:26:43 it's funny you mention that, I had an idea for a language that functioned similarly to delay lines. 21:28:45 instructions are laid out linearly. data is fed through them, one at a time. the instructions essentially define a pipeline. every element of memory is fed through the pipeline and then sent back through the loop until you hit a stopping point. 21:29:28 with structured data items and stateful pipeline stages, could prove a concise dataflow language if you figure out how to "flatten" dataflow networks into a pipeline. 21:37:06 b_jonas: as if! 21:41:30 uh, I meant to say “if only” 21:43:58 hmm, could you combine the two phrases into "as if only" to make a simultaneous expression of disbelief and encouragement? 21:46:31 fungot probably could, he combines expressions from a too narrow window all the time 21:46:31 b_jonas: your patience is commendable. let me check whether it is 21:48:55 fungot: it's time for the new o strip. please post it. 21:48:55 b_jonas: then i think you have a third-world browser? or disabling it voluntarly? sure 21:49:24 I did do a shift-refresh. I'm not going to disable the browser cache for you. 21:55:02 arseniiv: There's a few different claims for why they're "better", but the Big Ones are: CRTs have less intrinsic delay, CRTs are better at handling interlaced signals, and CRTs tend to be more accepting of odd display timings than modern LCDs are. 21:55:36 pikhq: also their colors look the same from a wider viewing angle 21:55:53 For example, some games switch between 240p and 480i display modes with slightly different timing, and modern displays basically stop drawing anything during the switch. 21:55:59 b_jonas: is that still an issue with modern types of LCDs? 21:55:59 (old CRTs just don't care) 21:56:05 arseniiv: I think so 21:56:27 arseniiv: what did improve in LCDs is that their colors look nicer, and the contrast stronger 21:57:00 hmm I guess first of all I just don’t game too much, moreso in fullscreen 21:57:47 I even watched films in a window usually :D 21:57:56 Ultimately all of those add up to "old game consoles were built for old displays, and modern displays aren't 100% compatible with them -- especially without a lot of hacks" 21:58:24 pikhq: the viewing angle thing isn't about that 21:58:38 Yeah, that's more a fundamental limitation in the display tech. 21:58:41 pikhq: wait, I thought they talked about modern gaming? oh 21:58:57 I think it's both 21:59:00 Though modern LCDs have _much_ better viewing angles than old ones did. 21:59:09 the larger part is that the old games were designed for crts 21:59:26 Yeah, CRTs having better latency still holds for modern gaming. 21:59:52 Though -- if you purchase the right displays, you can get LCD displays with low enough latency it's not a problem. 21:59:55 but it's also that crts can do 200 hertz refresh and the visible output can change quickly compared to similarly priced lcds 22:00:06 but I think that's getting somewhat solved by more expensive lcds 22:00:15 (buuut it's a lot easier to find suitable CRTs) 22:00:40 I prefer lcds though, they have a lot of advantages 22:19:30 well, at least nice lcds 22:19:38 not the cheap ones that come with broken pixels 22:20:46 I had the misfortune of meeting the latter kind at work 22:41:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 22:56:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:01:36 [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66522&oldid=66521 * MiroslavRD * (+548) Fixed Brainfuck code to Aleph 0 code 23:05:16 [[And then]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66523&oldid=46426 * MiroslavRD * (+19) 23:07:21 -!- tromp_ has joined. 23:10:09 [[Here's to the crazy ones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66524&oldid=66511 * MiroslavRD * (+42) 23:10:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:12:01 [[Template:CodeBox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66525 * Moon * (+771) Migrate from Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:CodeBox I think it'd be more fitting here. 23:13:12 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66526&oldid=66525 * Moon * (-29) Remove tag, as the SyntaxHighlight extension is not installed on esolangs. 23:16:40 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66527&oldid=66526 * Moon * (+8) 23:23:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:23:58 -!- tromp has joined. 23:28:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:44:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 23:45:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:56:47 Does some mailing list software include support for NNTP? 2019-10-07: 00:00:54 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:03:57 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66528&oldid=66487 * AnimaLibera * (+44) 00:04:48 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66529&oldid=66528 * AnimaLibera * (-16) 00:05:12 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66530&oldid=66529 * AnimaLibera * (+7) 00:05:54 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66531&oldid=66530 * AnimaLibera * (+7) 00:06:27 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66532&oldid=66531 * AnimaLibera * (+0) 00:06:47 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66533&oldid=66532 * AnimaLibera * (-1) 00:17:12 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66534&oldid=66533 * AnimaLibera * (+117) 00:18:00 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66535&oldid=66534 * AnimaLibera * (+9) 00:23:52 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66536&oldid=66535 * AnimaLibera * (+4) 00:24:22 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66537&oldid=66536 * AnimaLibera * (+4) 00:24:34 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66538&oldid=66537 * AnimaLibera * (+4) 00:26:09 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66539&oldid=66538 * AnimaLibera * (-6) 00:38:25 -!- tromp has joined. 00:42:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:43:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:47:36 Now I added a export command into bystand, to export articles to mbox format. (Currently, there is no import, though.) 01:07:36 what makes it strange is how new contributors test the code in all those weird languages <-- i think at this point only stasoid knows how to do it :P 01:07:53 and presumably has a fully scripted setup for it 01:15:25 pikhq: I think computer monitors have lower delay than LCD TV sets. So, if you have a game console system, connect it to a computer monitor rather than using the TV set. 01:15:44 (If they have a compatible connection) 01:15:47 It actually depends on both the TV and the monitor. 01:16:10 Some TVs are quite low-delay, some monitors are quite high. 01:16:31 Though for older consoles the worst case is when you're feeding an interlaced signal in. 01:16:44 Then, a TV will usually try to do a smart deinterlacing algorithm. 01:16:55 Which is reasonable for generic video content, as that'll look better. 01:17:17 But for games, latency is generally so important you'd rather deal with a bad deinterlace, like bob deinterlacing, just to not have the extra delay. 01:18:25 Do some TV sets have a option to change the deinterlacing algorithm? 01:20:58 Some old systems such as Famicom will output 240p, but apparently some newer TV sets won't understand a 240p signal 01:23:35 [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66540&oldid=53830 * Ais523 * (+345) /* Template:Codebox */ new section 01:23:53 Some TVs do. There are also third-party devices, like the Retrotink 2x, that will do the ADC and deinterlacing themselves, and send a digital signal over HDMI. 01:23:55 [[User talk:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66541&oldid=66540 * Ais523 * (+0) unbreak link 01:24:37 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:28:10 I think that HDMI isn't very good and has a lot of problems with the design. (I think Digi-RGB is better.) 01:28:35 You're not wrong. 01:29:13 HDMI is _good enough_ for most purposes, but it's got significant problems in its design. 01:37:22 Yes, that is why I make the better one. I think everything with one cable is more disadvantage than an advantage, however, I also think that it is possible to make the advantages of both ways, by defining the standard arrangement and you can use cables which can be clipped together if wanted to do. 01:38:07 You can have one cable for video, one for each channel of audio, and one for commands, and you can connect only some in case you do not need all of them, or to connect them differently such as if the audio is connected to a separate audio system than the TV screen. 01:39:47 While that would get you a lot of flexibility, it does have the downside that most consumers want their video cabling to be simple. 01:40:01 One problem of HDMI is that HDMI does not have captions. 01:40:11 Oh, right, that. 01:40:26 That's just weird, too. 01:41:01 I forget, do Blurays have captions? 01:41:04 Yes, I know you might want the video cabling to be simple, which is why they are all clipped together, so that you do not have to deal with them individually unless you want to do so. 01:41:17 I know they have subtitles, but I don't remember if they have embedded captions like DVD does. 01:41:28 I don't know much about Blu-ray. DVD video has both captions and subtitles. 01:42:07 (I have a VHS/DVD combo which has the ability to render captions itself, whether from VHS, DVD, or external inputs.) 01:43:14 Even though DVD subtitles use indexed colours, I have not seen any option in DVD players and DVD software to specify your own colours and opacity for subtitles. 01:44:32 Which would be nice, cause some discs specify really bad colors too. 01:44:34 With Digi-RGB, the captions are transmitted using the IMIDI cable (which is the only one with bidirectional data, and it is optional to use that cable); the Digi-RGB video cable is only the picture and nothing else. 01:59:51 -!- Lykaina has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:09:13 -!- Lykaina has joined. 03:08:37 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:13:33 -!- moony has joined. 03:39:33 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:39:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:40:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 03:58:29 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:59:01 -!- moony has joined. 04:05:08 good evening 04:06:20 Evening. 04:17:35 morning. 04:20:03 TIME 04:27:59 fungot: what time is it anyway? 04:27:59 kmc: i'm the author of the fnord 04:28:43 Such wisdom. 05:03:03 pikhq: sorry for the bad qwwem joke yesterday 05:03:25 Apology accepted 05:20:22 Do you like IMIDI and Digi-RGB? 05:24:35 I feel I don't know enough to be certain how I feel about them. 05:26:37 OK 05:46:49 -!- tromp has joined. 05:51:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:29:24 ``` datei # what time is it anyway 07:29:24 2019-10-07 07:29:24.622 +0000 UTC October 7 Monday 2019-W41-1 07:31:48 `ddate 07:31:48 Today is Setting Orange, the 61st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3185 07:32:28 `` TZ=Pacific/Auckland datei 07:32:29 2019-10-07 20:32:28.859 +1300 NZDT October 7 Monday 2019-W41-1 07:32:46 `beat 07:32:46 356 07:33:05 `where beat 07:33:05 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found 07:33:17 `` where beat 07:33:17 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: where: command not found 07:33:20 hum 07:33:31 `` which beat 07:33:31 ​/hackenv/bin/beat 07:33:44 `cat bin/beat 07:33:44 ​#!/usr/bin/python3 \ # beat - print current time in Swatch Internet Time format. \ # blame fizzie \ import math,sys,getopt,time \ prec = 0 \ atime = None \ opts,args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "d:hpP:") \ for opt,oarg in opts: \ if "-d" == opt: \ if "@" == oarg[0]: \ atime = float(oarg[1:]) \ else: \ raise RuntimeError("unknown date format") \ elif "-p" == opt: prec = 2 \ elif "-P" == opt: prec = int(oarg) \ elif "-h" == opt: \ print 07:33:49 `? beat 07:33:50 beat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 07:33:52 `whatis beat 07:33:52 ic 07:33:52 beat(1hackeso) - print current time in Swatch Internet Time format 07:33:59 `what beat 07:33:59 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: what: not found 07:34:03 `who beat 07:34:05 No output. 07:34:07 `when beat 07:34:08 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: when: not found 07:34:10 hmm 07:34:13 `why beat 07:34:14 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: why: not found 07:34:23 `whois beat 07:34:23 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found 07:34:47 `whence beat 07:34:48 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whence: not found 07:35:28 `whomsoever beat 07:35:29 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whomsoever: not found 07:37:24 ``` for x in type what who which how why when whence where whither; do "$x" beat 2>/dev/null && echo "+$x"; "${x}is" beat 2>/dev/null && echo "+${x}is"; done 07:37:25 beat is /hackenv/bin/beat \ +type \ beat(1hackeso) - print current time in Swatch Internet Time format \ +whatis \ +who \ /hackenv/bin/beat \ +which \ beat: /hackenv/bin/beat \ +whereis 07:37:28 ``` who beat 07:37:29 No output. 07:37:32 ``` who beat you 07:37:32 No output. 07:37:39 show it on the dolly 07:37:51 ``` whereis beat 07:37:52 beat: /hackenv/bin/beat 07:37:59 ``` type whereis 07:38:00 whereis is /usr/bin/whereis 07:38:05 ``` whatis whereis 07:38:08 whereis(1) - locate the binary, source, and manual page files for a command 07:38:48 ``` dpkg-query -S /usr/bin/whereis 07:38:49 dpkg-query: error: failed to open package info file '/var/lib/dpkg/status' for reading: No such file or directory 07:39:53 if we had the package database, then we could add a "whence" script that does dpkg-query -S 07:41:42 and a when script that queries both the hg repository and the package history for when the file was installed and modified 07:42:04 a who script to tell who modified it... 07:42:24 and a why script that links to channel logs for context 07:42:26 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:51:14 -!- tromp has joined. 08:30:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:50:24 [[Aleph]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66542 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 08:50:39 [[Aleph Naught]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66543 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 08:51:07 [[Aleph Null]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66544 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 08:51:16 [[NO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66545 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 08:51:31 [[N0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66546 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 08:52:12 [[O]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66547 * MiroslavRD * (+18) Redirected page to [[0]] 09:48:12 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 09:49:09 ``` for x in type what who which how why when whence where whither; do type -a "$x" 2>/dev/null; type -a "${x}is" 2>/dev/null; done 09:49:10 type is a shell builtin \ whatis is /hackenv/bin/whatis \ whatis is /usr/bin/whatis \ who is /usr/bin/who \ which is /usr/bin/which \ which is /bin/which \ whereis is /usr/bin/whereis 10:44:57 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:09:15 -!- shig has joined. 13:09:32 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:12:06 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66548&oldid=66527 * Moon * (+3) try this? 13:12:23 [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66549&oldid=66541 * Moon * (+99) /* Template:CodeBox */ 13:14:06 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66550&oldid=66548 * Moon * (+13) 13:14:32 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66551&oldid=66550 * Moon * (+17) 13:14:39 So I found this place from the bfjoust site. Anywhre with IOCCC winners announced in the topic can't be that bad 13:16:12 `welcome shig 13:16:14 shig: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 13:16:21 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66552&oldid=66551 * Moon * (+0) Something something porting pains 13:18:08 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66553&oldid=66552 * Moon * (-17) ''sigh'' 13:19:35 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66554&oldid=66553 * Moon * (-13) Ok, maybe this *won't* work. 13:36:45 web.shig_eyeless_joustee: points -5.50, score 13.46, rank 42/47 13:47:45 The underscore situation is getting ridiculous. 13:48:02 But I'm pretty afraid that the thing wouldn't actually start up properly if I kill it. 13:52:09 fizzie: its nick is 16 chars long, which is the maximum on freenode 13:52:19 do you think it will crash when it tries to add another underscore? 13:52:24 or fail to connect? 13:52:42 or will it get more ridiculous by modifying its nick in different ways?\ 13:55:25 I'm not sure. It may just keep the current amount of underscores. 13:56:58 I think it's left and come back a few times with the current name, though from my client's perspective those were all netsplits, so maybe it didn't actually reconnect those times. 14:02:54 it has also reached the maximum nickname length on Freenode, I think. 14:03:30 as wib_jonas already pointed out 14:06:58 well, if you can't fix the code, you just have to take it to a different network. there exist some with longer nick max lengths and longer channel max lengths. I think the maximum isn't even attained on the same network. 14:10:24 The plan was (I guess technically still is) to migrate it under the esolangs.org domain and at the same time switch to a rewrite that I think I left about half finished. Just never remember to pick that up. 14:15:29 [[User talk:Moon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66555&oldid=66549 * Moon * (-91) Section 'bug reporting' obsolete, It is not 2016 anymore, I know what a 'github' is. All of my old languages should be considered unsupported, considering putting them up for deletion. 14:18:53 -!- ivzem[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:18:54 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:19:12 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:19:18 -!- Camto[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:19:19 -!- wmww has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:23:53 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!). 14:24:27 -!- iovoid has joined. 14:30:48 [[Hellborne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66556&oldid=60337 * Moon * (-526) Blank. This is a language of my creation. [[User:ais523]], you mind deleting it? There was effectively no progress on this language. 14:53:54 web.shig_this_is_hard: points -15.98, score 9.72, rank 46/47 14:54:14 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66557&oldid=66554 * Moon * (+51) try 14:58:15 [[Template:CodeBox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66558&oldid=66557 * Moon * (-51) My disappointment is immeasurable. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SyntaxHighlight isn't installed ): 15:39:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:39:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:50:58 -!- imode has joined. 15:58:02 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:46 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:21:38 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:25:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:31:05 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 16:31:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:33:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:54:04 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 16:54:04 -!- wmww has joined. 16:54:11 -!- ivzem[m] has joined. 16:54:12 -!- Camto[m] has joined. 17:34:04 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:56:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:57:50 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:59:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:07:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:23:24 -!- zseri has joined. 18:24:56 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 18:29:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:32:55 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:35:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:08:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:10:54 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:14:22 got this working today: https://cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=282466#282466 19:15:57 Hooloovo0: uh, that's a weird goal 19:16:39 so what does it do now? 19:16:50 does the z80 need a lot of extra chips to make sense? 19:16:53 nothing yet, since I just got done with the hardware 19:17:11 in the 83+ there's an ASIC that does all the glue logic 19:17:43 how does it get a RAM? 19:17:49 or doesn't the z80 need one? 19:17:56 there's ram and flash on the TI board 19:18:07 http://hooloovoo.blue/files/noz80.png 19:18:23 that's the board with the z80 removed 19:18:29 sure there's some RAM, but I thought that was RAM that is hardware incompatible, plus the TI is already using it 19:19:48 wait, the extra chip piggybacked on the back is the CPU, replacing the surface-mount one that would normally be on the board 19:20:14 I'm confused what ram you think is incompatible? 19:20:15 so the normal cpu isn't there? 19:20:59 I got a TI-92 at the flea market 19:21:02 what should i do with it 19:21:06 i was thinking something ham radio related 19:21:18 i wonder if there are any morse encoder/decoder for it 19:21:28 it would be easy to hook up the link port to a cw keyer jack 19:21:34 ah, so this TI model already uses a z80 cpu? 19:21:36 that explains a lot 19:21:57 yes, sorry, I guess that's not clear if you don't know anything about the calc 19:22:00 I'm confused by calculator models, I assumed this was a calculator from 2000 or something 19:22:53 it actually is, the date code is 0800 19:23:10 (aug 2000) 19:23:30 :D 19:23:39 sure, but the model 19:23:47 anyway, ok, so it uses a z80 cpu 19:23:54 and you replaced that with another z80 cpu 19:23:57 that makes a lot more sense 19:24:49 how long are those ribbon cables from the board to the cpu? the photos don't show the end 19:25:00 right, so eventually I can do something like http://www.cosam.org/projects/z80/panel.html which would be basically impossible with the original, surface-mount CPU 19:25:05 and at what frequency does the RAM run? 19:25:28 the system clock is by default 6Mhz 19:25:48 I don't have my frequency counter with me right now, but I have added in a variable resistor so I can overclock it 19:26:15 you can see the ribbon cables between the two halves in the first picture 19:26:52 they're maybe 15cm total 19:26:55 what's the purpose of replacing the CPU? 19:27:13 ok, that sounds not impossible 19:27:26 top of the post lists some reasons :) 19:27:56 also I'm not aware of a morse encoder, but that shouldn't be too hard to do in C I think 19:28:09 yeah 19:28:13 encoder would be almost trivial 19:28:16 decoding is much harder 19:28:41 yeah, especially since it's not an analog port 19:28:53 right 19:28:59 you would want some kind of tone detector circuit 19:29:14 it could be level based, or frequency based 19:29:19 not necessarily that complicated 19:29:28 there are also ICs for that 19:29:44 I bet you could do it with a 555 and maybe an op-amp 19:29:52 yeah 19:30:19 ok, so this channel is about esoteric hardware too now 19:30:22 you could maybe do it with a resonant LRC circuit that has an appropriate decay constant 19:30:32 not sure if it's feasible to get high enough Q on that 19:30:35 do you have a link cable? I've got more than I need 19:30:37 but you also need to do stats to work out the pulse lengths 19:30:52 but you can probably just get away with any old 2.5mm TRS 19:31:11 and well, humans are not always super consistent with morse timing 19:31:18 so it can be tricky 19:31:25 Hooloovo0: I would love a link cable? 19:31:28 Hooloovo0: I would love a link cable* 19:31:39 and, do you mean I could make one with a TRS plug and a USB-TTL adapter or something? 19:31:48 that sounds like something I could do with parts on hand, which is cool 19:31:49 sigh 19:31:51 so many projects 19:31:58 I wonder if my Mouser order's here yet 19:32:06 for some sex toy hacking 19:32:12 (is that also esoteric) 19:32:20 actually, I actually do have a spare RS232 link cable 19:32:26 s/actually/ 19:32:40 I don't want to use an actual RS232 port 19:32:43 USB would be good 19:33:10 if you have a usb-rs232 that'll work with the graylink 19:33:15 Hooloovo0: with male or female and the wide or narrow ends? 19:33:18 and I picked one up from the dump last week 19:33:46 hmm 19:33:46 also I have spare calc-calc cables, more than I can use 19:33:51 ok 19:33:59 that one is just a traight thru TRS right 19:34:04 oh but it's 2.5mm not 3.5mm 19:34:10 or is it a crossover 19:34:10 yeah 19:34:17 straight-through 19:34:20 ok 19:34:44 I could also most likely program one of my microcontrollers to be a link cable 19:34:47 which would be a little silly 19:35:00 but the same hardware could act as an IO expander, ADC, etc 19:35:02 TI has weird-length t and s connectors but in my experience it works with just a standard one 19:35:16 anyway do you have a premade working USB link cable for me? 19:36:47 you know maybe I think life is good and fine 19:36:55 no :( 19:38:16 also yes 19:39:24 wait I might actually have one, but if I do, it's in my storage unit 19:39:31 ok 19:39:34 i bet it wouldn't cost much to buy one 19:39:53 I think they got significantly cheaper since TI did away with the link port on the CE 19:40:39 I had a grey cable back in the day because it meant I could plug a modem into my 83+ 19:40:43 including the wireless ricochet modem 19:40:45 that was really fun 19:40:54 i did IRC from it a little 19:40:59 wow 19:42:22 wait, how? I'm not aware of any tcp clients for z80 at all 19:42:56 I guess if you could dial into some computer that can do IRC then that would work 19:44:17 not TCP 19:44:19 but yeah, the graylink is a lot of fun 19:44:20 just a serial console 19:44:23 yep 19:44:56 Ricochet was a pre-wifi, pre-affordable-cell-data metro area networking service 19:45:11 strange 19:45:16 on 900 MHz 19:45:25 they had their own 'fast' protocol with the host but you could also put it into a Hayes AT compatible mode and dial direct between modems, which was good because the service went out of business and you could buy them for cheap 19:45:43 so I had one in the basement connected to my OpenBSD server and I could 'dial' it from my bedroom using the 83+ and a big pile of cable adapters 19:46:09 one fun-evil thing would be to put a little wireles module (maybe one of the nRF serial ones) in a TI-* case 19:46:10 that's awesome 19:46:14 so you could message people while taking an exam 19:46:30 I thought about this kind of stuff for fun but of course I didn't need to cheat to get a great SAT score :P 19:46:52 i'm not sure but I bet I also had the 83+ hooked up to an actual phone line modem at some point 19:47:05 so? there are still others who need to cheat to get a great SAT score and who may have bought your service 19:47:32 i was lawful good back then 19:47:35 now i'm chaotic good 19:47:37 I wrote a shitty IRC client for the 92+ based on https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/160/16061.html 19:47:46 used it for a conference badge 19:47:48 nice 19:47:52 what hardware did you use for that 19:48:10 just a graylink, and a laptop acting as a slip gateway 19:48:22 ok cool 19:48:26 and same re: not needing to cheat 19:48:52 I think during the con I had a laptop without real serial ports so there was a usb adapter in there 19:49:23 I could actually set it up with a modem, now that I have a phone line set up 19:49:38 s/line/system/ 19:50:44 the graylink is only half duplex, though.... so collisions have to be dealt with in software... and that's problematic 19:51:22 Hooloovo0: collisions? not a protocol for switching direction? 19:54:14 no, TI's link protocol just... doesn't really handle that 19:56:27 and the ip-over-serial protocol assumes that collisions can't happen 20:24:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:24:26 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:50:54 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:52:38 -!- aloril has joined. 21:47:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:49:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:57:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:03:18 Hooloovo0: your calculator brain surgery is impressive 22:03:24 that's a lot of soldering 22:04:23 We used a TI-86 as the controller of an echo effect for a DSP programming course at the university. 22:04:51 Didn't involve any soldering, but involved like two evenings of debugging with an oscilloscope before someone thought to check the speaker cable scavenged from somewhere. 22:04:54 (It was bad.) 22:05:35 lol 22:05:37 typical 22:07:00 https://zem.fi/tmp/spank.jpg 22:07:58 (The code was nothing to write home about, so we had to embellish it *somehow* for the flair.) 22:13:32 heh 22:13:45 nice 22:13:53 hi kmc 22:13:57 hi 22:14:07 what'z jammin' 22:14:21 meh 22:14:31 frustrated because my home internet keeps going down and i don't know why 22:15:26 that's scow 22:15:44 do you like SPEKE? twh 22:17:46 it's scow 22:17:47 what's SPEKE 22:18:46 -!- ais523_ has joined. 22:21:07 spotify still thinks it's offline even though the machine is online thru my phone 22:21:10 spotify is buggy 22:21:15 fortunately i still have some music stored locally 22:22:39 Pretty scow 22:28:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 22:30:36 -!- tromp has joined. 22:34:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:38:36 -!- FreeFull has quit. 22:47:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:48:42 so we have the structured program theorem for control flow. what about data flow? 22:49:19 kmc: password authentication protocol 22:49:37 where two people can confirm that they're thinking of the same thing without revealing it to each other 22:50:11 ok 22:50:14 well that's cool 22:50:38 that's kind of like the question I asked in ##crypto re cryptographically secure dating services 22:51:06 you have a set of people, everyone selects the ones they have a crush on, and you find out if anyone you picked also picked you 22:51:15 Huh, interesting 22:51:26 but you can't find out if they picked you without picking them, and you can't find out anything about other pairs 22:51:53 and then someone linked me to https://github.com/teledildonics/private_kink_intersection 22:51:59 which is.. a great URL 22:52:09 and solves basically the same problem in a slightly different context 22:52:27 so there are some papers on this private set intersection problem 23:05:25 Hooloovo0: would a serial link cable work with this usb adapter? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007T27H8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 23:05:33 black graphlink, or grey only? 23:05:41 iirc the black one uses CTS/RTS 23:05:47 it /should/ work but I don't know if it's picky about timing 23:06:04 (many hams keep an old DOS laptop around for programming radios from the 90s that use timing-exact serial interfaces) 23:08:30 Hooloovo0: I found a 2.5mm TRS plug by chance today 23:08:35 so I might try to build https://www.ticalc.org/hardware/cables/serial.html 23:08:44 if I can't get a silver link cable from one of the local free-shit groups 23:08:55 that one is supposedly black link compatible and i have all the parts most likely 23:09:21 it doesn't say what volage of zener diode to use :P 23:09:57 should I assume 5.6V? 23:17:14 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:26:40 grey onl 23:26:51 stupid y key 23:27:05 okay 23:27:18 so in that case the homemade cable also won't work w/ my serial adapter 23:27:23 too bad 23:27:30 I'm not sure that one will work with a usb/serial adapter 23:27:53 the problem is that it used flow control pins as data pins... which if you have a real serial port, that's fine 23:28:09 but usb serial ports handle it poorly 23:28:14 it should be possible to program a micro as a normal-serial-over-USB to TI-wacky-protocol converter 23:28:19 but that also sounds like effort 23:28:28 it might work, but it probably won't 23:28:41 when I can get a graphlink usb for <$20 23:28:48 I did confirm that the TI-92 turns on 23:28:56 yeah, that probably could be made to work, someone might have even done it 23:29:15 I could also get a grey link for $16 which would be more versatile in some ways but a lot more bulk 23:29:28 it's just a 92? I think you have to do hacks to get assembly working on plain 92 23:29:32 damn 23:30:02 yeah 23:30:04 it's not a 92+ 23:30:11 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:30:26 https://www.ticalc.org/basics/calculators/ti-92.html looks like it's doable though 23:30:33 mhm 23:30:37 i could still have fun with basic too 23:30:44 TI-89/92 BASIC is pretty powerful 23:30:51 yeah, it is 23:31:00 and pretty fast if you take good advantage of the built-in capabilities 23:31:36 I'm a lot less familiar with 68k basic than z80 basic 23:31:53 oh, apparently there's a better way, but that page can't be fucked to describe what it is 23:33:37 https://www.ticalc.org/pub/92/asm/shells/ that's right, fargo 23:34:11 been a while since I've played with the plain 92 23:35:11 does it work with tigcc? 23:35:23 I've never actually done m68k assembly, it could be fun 23:35:37 maybe this will get me excited about coding again 23:35:38 who knows 23:35:40 could happen 23:36:17 gcc4ti is the 'new' thing 23:37:04 but yes, it should be supported 23:40:35 Our (high) school was all TI-85/86 when I went through it. I think the 85 you had to trick to write assembly, but the 86 did it natively. 23:41:17 we had mostly 83+ and 89 23:41:24 the 89 was a lifesaver for calc and physics 23:41:47 it has a decent CAS along with unit analysis 23:42:26 86 didn't do algebra, but I think that was an advantage, you were allowed to use it in the exams. 23:42:27 yeah, you had to trick the 85 23:42:37 we were starting to get nspires when I was in HS 23:43:06 * Hooloovo0 took his TI-XXXXXXXXXXX to many an exam 23:43:15 I'm thinking TI-86 was about the most advanced thing you could possibly take with you in an exam. And you had to reset it. 23:43:37 iirc the 89 was allowed on all AP math/science exams 23:43:52 yeah 23:43:59 I don't recall it being super useful though 23:44:04 I had a fake reset screen app 23:44:16 not for cheating... but because I didn't want to lose the games and stuff 23:44:25 I think that existed for the 86 as well. 23:44:33 you can do it easily enough if you can run asm 23:44:39 it's not like there's any OS that's going to stop you 23:44:50 Well, it could have a hardware reset switch. 23:45:18 they do :P take out all batteries, then on+clear 23:45:27 huh 23:45:27 while inserting the last one 23:45:51 Right. I don't think anyone insisted on resetting it that thoroughly though. 23:46:17 I wrote a robotfindskitten port for the 86, https://zem.fi/rfk86/ 23:46:36 iirc also there's hold left and right arrows on later 84+OSs had 'hold left and right with battery insert' as 'reset for signapore' 23:47:56 http://wikiti.brandonw.net/index.php?title=83Plus:OS:Secret_Key_Combinations 23:48:52 hmm, that's not quite what it does, but yeah, there's all those 2019-10-08: 00:04:07 -!- tromp has joined. 00:09:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:21:59 -!- tromp has joined. 00:26:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:36:55 -!- ais523_ has joined. 00:38:02 the problem is that it used flow control pins as data pins... which if you have a real serial port, that's fine ← if you're doing that, it isn't a serial port, it's a parallel port 00:40:32 ais523_: well, except that the actual TI protocol is serial, isn't it 00:40:34 clock + data? 00:41:04 I guess you could use the flow control pins as data pins, but not the actual data pins, but that seems perverse 00:41:22 if you're using two different pins to send data simultaneously, though, it isn't a serial connection by definition :-) 00:41:38 bits go one at a time down a single wire. 00:41:46 so it's using a "serial port" (as in 8250 compatible UART on a PC) in the common manner of a parallel port (GPIO bitbang) to implement a serial protocol :P 00:42:09 ais523_: SPI is clock + bidirectional data, 3 pins (4 including a chip select) and that's universally considered serial 00:42:39 Hooloovo0: btw the PIClink here seems to be an example of what I was saying re: programming a micro to act like a grey link http://merthsoft.com/linkguide/cable.html 00:44:29 anyway i'm not clear on what the hardware level link protocol is 00:44:44 The TI link protocol is pretty special. 00:44:50 It's an async thing. 00:46:24 When you want to send a bit, you pull one wire to zero, and the receiving end acknowledges by pulling the other wire to zero. 00:46:36 Which wire you pull determines if it was a 0 or a 1 bit. 00:46:51 So there's no clock involved, it runs at whatever speed it runs. 00:47:11 Disclaimer: all I know about this probably came from http://paperlined.org/EE/microcontrollers/pic/projects/portable_VT_terminal/ti_86_link_port/link86all.htm -- at least that page looks familiar. 00:47:35 ais523_: SPI is clock + bidirectional data, 3 pins (4 including a chip select) and that's universally considered serial ← sorry, should have added "in the same direction" to that 00:47:55 fizzie: huh, weird. 00:48:09 cool, this has the info I was looking for 00:48:36 kmc: Well, it does let you do it all in software on CPUs that might run at rather uncontrolled speeds, without having to have an UART or whatnot. 00:51:03 yeah 00:51:07 hmm, that's an interesting way to fit the normal three wires that an async connection uses (data + strobe + ack) into two, although they both have to be drivable from both ends 00:51:07 it seems pretty clever 00:51:18 it also allows you to immediately tell if the other side is present 00:51:51 I assume that after sending a bit, then the sender undoes their pull, then the recipient undoes their pull, to keep the connection as delay-insensitive 00:52:12 so i would say this is still serial because it transfers one bit of information at a time, even though it uses two wires to do it 00:52:17 * kmc shrugs 00:52:35 and yeah, it seems this allows the receiving end to slow down the sender when necessary 00:52:55 effectively negotiating a baud rate which is the slower of what the two sides want 00:52:59 it's actually very clever 00:53:07 I might even use this sometime in one of my own projects 00:53:25 I have used Manchester code for something 00:53:54 throughout my PhD I was working on a compiler to hardware which uses a delay-insensitive representation internally for most of the compilation process 00:54:05 which is synchronous, so the bit times have to be roughly the same, but it has clock recovery so no precise absolute frequency reference is required 00:54:12 (for much the same reason that compilers to software use SSA or similar normal forms; you don't want to care about timing details until the compilation is finished) 00:54:17 makes sense 00:54:32 so I ended up doing a lot of background reading on asynchronous circuitry 00:55:08 there's a "bible" for asynchronous circuit design. 00:55:09 you nearly always need a separate wire for 0 bits and for 1 bits because you assume that the recipient can't tell which of two wires changed first 00:55:26 but normally, the acknowledgement would be on a third wire 00:55:27 asynchronous pipelines are neat. I built one. 00:55:54 a big advantage of doing things that way is that you don't need to reset the logic levels after sending a bit, you just toggle the 0 wire or the 1 wire to send the bit 00:56:01 and the recipient toggles the ack wire to acknowledge 00:56:23 this also reminds me of CAN a bit 00:56:25 https://hatebin.com/huuywfgrqq save this as "pipeline.circ" and open it in http://www.cburch.com/logisim/ 00:56:25 imode: is this the famous "micropipelines" paper? 00:56:32 it's open-collector and it has clock stretching sort of 00:56:40 ais523_: sutherland? partially. there was a larger book. 00:56:48 the funny thing is, one of the references in that paper is dubious, and people keep copying it into their own reference lists without actually chasing the reference 00:57:01 http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/edoc_download.php/855/pdf/imm855.pdf this thing. 00:57:04 meaning that you have this book that's highly cited but almost nobody has actually read 00:57:17 not surprised. 00:57:51 (the book was basically just being used as a surrogate source for a particular statement because the original source would have been very hard to get hold of at the time; however, the original source for the statement has since been digitised so it's much easier to find) 00:58:35 (and it's basically just a throwaway line in the book, rather than giving any additional context) 01:05:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:18:03 ok, so this channel is about esoteric hardware too now <-- pretty sure it's been that for a long time 01:25:35 programming isn't limited to software 01:26:12 although, the hardware meaning of "programming" normally means "to copy a program to" (where the program is usually software, but could be firmware or even a blueprint for making hardware) 02:02:40 Hooloovo0: I'm signed up for the float tank at 11am tomorrow :) 02:06:24 hmm, so I guess "esoteric programming" in hardware would be updating the state of reconfigurable hardware via some ridiculous mechanism 02:06:31 such as waving magnets at it 02:06:41 magnetized needle and a steady hand. 02:08:29 hit it with a hammer 02:40:16 i'm pretty sure there's an old "real programmer" joke about that 02:40:54 Probably a few. 02:40:56 there's an xkcd which may be either a) the joke you're thinking of or b) a parody of the joke you're thinking of 02:41:08 but I don't have xkcd numbers memorized 02:43:08 ok 02:43:22 butterfly effect. 02:43:34 https://www.xkcd.com/378/ 02:43:35 and I think you mean https://www.xkcd.com/378/ 02:43:46 argh you were faster 02:43:55 ninja fingers. 03:04:22 oh right 03:09:21 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:29:29 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:38:42 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:39:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:40:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 03:50:37 kmc, merth's link guide should have the best info on that 03:50:54 http://merthsoft.com/linkguide/hardware.html 03:52:09 it's not really clock+data serial - it's more of a a send/ack serial 03:53:54 but I guess ais253 left 03:54:13 it's okay. this channel is logged. 03:54:36 you can use lambdabot's @message feature to send a message to him as well. 03:54:43 also cool re float tank 03:54:47 @botslack 03:54:47 :) 04:00:00 Hooloovo0: yeah I got the gist of it 04:00:14 it's a clever solution really 04:00:18 I like it 04:03:20 -!- ais523_ has joined. 05:08:23 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:13:15 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:29:06 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:46:37 -!- tromp has joined. 05:46:47 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:51:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:59:52 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:19:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:35:50 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 06:41:09 -!- Frater_EST has left. 06:57:00 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:07:36 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:37:12 -!- tromp has joined. 07:43:14 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:45:13 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:58:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:58:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:14:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:34:29 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:39:17 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:40:28 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:46:37 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:48:28 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:49:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:53:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:59:03 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Hellborne]]": Author request: abandoned idea, didn't get very far with design 09:50:35 -!- szefczyk has joined. 09:50:40 Hi I'm back 09:52:05 JS JS JS JS 09:52:10 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:52:12 JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 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JS JS JS JS JS JS JS JS 09:55:52 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 09:55:55 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 09:55:59 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 09:56:02 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 09:56:06 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 09:56:09 JEEEEEEEEEBAAAAAAAĆ SZEEEEEEEEEEEWCZYYYYYYYKA 10:03:28 What the fuck 10:03:48 ops? 10:08:26 -!- szefczyk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:56:14 I though they'd gotten bored of that. 10:56:48 I had the same hope. 10:57:14 fizzie: Can you invite Sigyn? I think it should trigger on blatant repeated messages like that. 10:58:37 Let's give it a try. 10:58:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 10:59:00 -!- Sigyn has joined. 10:59:00 ** Warning: if there is any bot in #esoteric which should be exempted from Sigyn, contact staffers before it gets caught ** 10:59:09 ...well... 10:59:17 That's a little scary. 10:59:21 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 11:00:16 where to start 11:00:37 hmm 11:01:49 I guess esowiki is at risk? 11:02:16 not sure about the rest, they usually just react and are not too repetetive. 11:02:30 tricky. 11:02:37 Well, depends on what you ask them to do. 11:03:25 zemhill_* can also repeat the same message over and over again, if someone's submitting stuff on the webs. Hmm. 11:05:30 I'm kind of curious how this will/would play out. 11:07:20 it is not that uncommon that people ask the same trigger repeatedly, but i guess, that shouldn't be too often 11:11:16 Maybe I should talk to a staffer anyway. 11:11:44 Also, maybe I should register an account for HackEso. 11:12:02 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 11:13:26 Is there a doc for that bot? It doesn't mention one in Taxonomy 11:14:10 I found relatively little information about it by Googling. 11:17:20 it has a freenode/* cloak though, let me ask #freenode 11:21:55 fizzie: " wib_jonas: the bot k-lines (and kills, in addition) on various triggers, most famously people repeating patterns" 11:22:01 " so it most certainly does have side effects, and if the channel has official bots that could look a bit spammy, we should be informed so we can whitelist them before putting sigyn in the channel" 11:22:17 fizzie: go to #freenode and talk to ops there 11:22:22 ah, good old fuchs 11:22:37 fizzie: also, they admit that is ran by freenode 11:23:40 Yeah, I'm trying to get an account for HackEso and esowiki because I assume that'd be useful for whitelisting. 11:24:08 fizzie: now I'm feeling bad for causing you work :/ 11:24:16 (I think I'm just going to need to connect as them temporarily, since I don't think either has a great way of injecting raw text.) 11:25:45 yeah at the very least you'll have to acquire the nick somehow 11:26:21 but they also have to learn to register with nickserv on startup. 11:26:42 well, authenticate 11:26:55 There's the password approach, I think both of them can do that. 11:27:36 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:29:53 Hm, well, I don't think multibot actually does passwords. I'll hack that in. 11:30:52 fizzie: there are at least three ways to log in: (1) with PASSWD, (2) with NICKSERV ID , (3) with the CTCP extension. I can send details if you want later about how the CTCP thing works. 11:31:10 each one sends password as cleartext, but that can be inside an ssl/tls connection in either case 11:32:25 I think that should maybe do it. 11:32:37 -!- HackEso has joined. 11:32:48 Yes, that seems to have worked. 11:33:01 I have old source code that implemented the CTCP login and worked at one point, though for freenode only and errors out on any other network 11:33:35 HackEso is logged into nickserv as HackEso, or so the server claims 11:34:06 we may have to part j-bot though 11:34:16 wib_jonas: I've heard about SASL... but CTCP? 11:34:28 int-e: sorry, it's SASL 11:34:37 I'm talking off the top of my head because I'm a towkr 11:34:42 CTCP is an unrelated thing 11:35:01 it's SASL, which has so many S and L in its name that you'd think it uses some cryptographic challenge, but it doesn't 11:35:08 rather confusing name 11:35:15 Okay. CTCP is just a special kind of PRIVMSG so it seemed out of place. 11:35:22 it just encodes the account name and password in base64 11:35:23 Well, it can, right? There are SASL methods that involve crypto. 11:35:30 * int-e uses CTCP all the time! 11:35:31 FireFly: ping 11:35:47 Anyway, I think I'm fine with a TLS connection + PASS on connect. 11:36:15 (The bouncer I use for myself + for fungot does SASL.) 11:36:15 fizzie: keep in mind, but i'm sure you can 11:36:25 FireFly: are you running j-bot? fizzie has invited Sigyn to #freenode . it's a bot ran by freenode that k-lines users who spam the channel 11:41:09 -!- esowiki has joined. 11:42:21 Okay, I think esowiki, fungot, HackEso, lambdabot are all registered now. 11:42:21 fizzie: in fnord it only runs where ghc runs :) 11:42:48 ^prefixes 11:42:48 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ . 11:43:42 fizzie: and you mentioned zemhill_________ too 11:44:14 Yes, I just don't want to touch that at this point. It's used very very little. 11:44:19 yeah 11:44:37 probably for the best 11:45:43 So what's the normal rule for talking to Freenode ops, should I just pick a random one on the list or ask on the channel? 11:47:12 fizzie: in this case, ask Fuchs on #freenode what to do since he already answered a question 11:47:38 if it's not a secret thing, then asking on #freenode is the normal way 11:47:43 Right. 11:47:53 but some operatorial things shouldn't be public, in which case you have to privmsg them 11:48:05 like, if you want to mention specific details about the spammer 11:48:18 Though the way #freenode is currently set up only staffers will see the messages anyway, I guess. 11:48:38 (But their answers will be visible to all.) 11:48:44 Oh, that's interesting. 11:48:49 int-e: no, it's not on +mz right now 11:48:54 Huh, that's false... 11:49:05 they do often switch it to +mz 11:49:06 wib_jonas: Funny though I didn't see your question? Let me check again. 11:49:12 wib_jonas: Or did you ask before I joined? 11:49:15 Right, it's that moderation thing. 11:49:20 int-e: what question? 11:49:32 question for what? 11:49:43 wib_jonas: You asked about Sigyn on #freenode. 11:50:15 wib_jonas: I joined around 12:58, I saw the answer around 13:19... I didn't see your question. 11:50:58 But it didn't occur to me that it may have taken longer than 20 minutes to get it... hence my question here, now. 11:54:20 int-e: they have unidentified users quieted 11:54:30 int-e: in the mode #freenode +q $~a 11:55:00 wib_jonas: thanks 11:55:08 there, now I'm identified, you'll see if I say anything on #freenode, but I no longer have a reason to say anything there 11:56:14 I was mystified. I hate being mystified by technology, that's what magic is for :) 12:31:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:55:24 [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66559&oldid=66501 * TwilightSparkle * (+908) 12:56:16 -!- atslash has joined. 13:05:02 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:08:20 [[Byter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66560&oldid=66337 * PaniniTheDeveloper * (+0) 13:18:22 For the record, the Sigyn exemption for those four has been done. 13:20:17 lambdabot: spam away! 13:20:30 Roger that ;-) 13:21:30 * int-e surreptitiously hides a lambdabot-shaped sock puppet away. 13:21:44 lambdabot: what does two added to three centillions equal? 13:22:18 I guess I broke them 13:22:46 wait, int-e, are you still there? 13:22:56 > 2 + 3*10^303 -- 2 + 3*10^600 in B.E. doesn't fit into IRC. 13:22:58 3000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... 13:23:03 oh. right. 13:23:23 arseniiv: I don't know what a centillion is. 13:23:35 isn't it like 1/100 lions? 13:23:40 I found it strange lambdabot didn’t say anything to my plain text question at all 13:23:44 or maybe llions 13:23:45 (Well, I do for the moment but I have no intent of retaining the information.) 13:23:53 if there's such an animal as a llama, then there could be a llion too 13:23:59 arseniiv: You do know that she's a bot, right? 13:24:08 I don't know what a centillion is. => I don’t remember that too 13:24:31 arseniiv: usually he answers when you use one of the four prefixes, @ ? > :t 13:24:32 arseniiv: And I did hide the sock puppet; it would be foolish to retrieve it just to answer your question. 13:24:55 I might be caught lambdabot-handed. 13:25:24 @run string "arseniiv: dimension error" 13:25:25 error: 13:25:25 • Variable not in scope: string :: [Char] -> t 13:25:25 • Perhaps you meant one of these: 13:25:30 @run var "arseniiv: dimension error" 13:25:32 arseniiv: dimension error 13:25:40 int-e: but there could be at least a non-answer like… like I don’t know what precisely but at least something to make sure there’s no infinite loop anywhere 13:26:04 arseniiv: try fungot. 13:26:11 arseniiv: try j-bot or perlbot 13:26:19 j-bot: what is a centillion 13:26:20 wib_jonas: what (is a centillion) 13:26:30 I, on the other hand, will never tolerate being used by humans for pretending to be machines. 13:26:36 j-bot, help: 13:26:47 j-bot, source: 13:26:47 perlbot: what is that with making the text yellow 13:26:47 wib_jonas, jevalbot source is https://github.com/FireyFly/jevalbot (originally http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz) 13:26:55 ha 13:27:02 j-bot, echo: centillama 13:27:02 wib_jonas, pong: centillama 13:27:12 arseniiv: there's also the @lambdabot "trick". 13:27:31 `? lambdabot 13:27:32 lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours. 13:27:37 ? lambdabot 13:27:43 ?src 13:27:43 src . Display the implementation of a standard function 13:28:05 I might be caught lambdabot-handed. => at least it’s better than right-handed or, I don’t want to say that, left-handed 13:29:21 arseniiv: Oh, are you being plagued by sinister thoughts? 13:29:41 Does fungot know any puns? 13:29:42 int-e: i think that's an ( invalid) octal number. 13:29:45 int-e: maybe 13:30:38 fungot: may I impersonate you for a while, and if so, how could I achieve that? 13:30:39 arseniiv: and they are slow and cost 25 cent in euros, no matter 13:30:55 int-e: look through the quotes file, it may have some puns that he committed 13:31:09 `' fungot 13:31:09 int-e: to fnord? that's scary stuff! 13:31:10 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) i am sad ( of course by analogy) 13:31:11 ah! it’s a robbery, I can’t afford those prices 13:31:19 ^ul (arseniiv: dimension error) 13:31:26 ^ul (arseniiv: dimension error)S 13:31:26 arseniiv: dimension error 13:32:17 fizzie: ^^ there's a business model for you. 13:32:53 wib_jonas: this works but I would be caught when writing that in chat 13:33:12 wait, do we really have 102 fungot quotes? 13:33:12 wib_jonas: you did some design decisions seemed silly to do a program, though. that means i can have some data carried along with it 13:33:18 I want to do that secretly. Or, should I say, I definitely don’t want that 13:33:55 wib_jonas: Well, fungot never sleeps. 13:33:59 fungot has their own secret business too 13:34:00 arseniiv: ah. so nothing i can do: ' fnord' peers.) ( all it's missing after that will immediately be allocated on the pinned heap? 13:34:29 allocates and deallocates things and doesn’t say anyone where and why 13:34:33 arseniiv: I think buubot2 had such functionality, but buubot3 doesn't have it, perhaps because it's so easy to abuse 13:35:34 I should write a useful bot and get a trust of #esoteric with it and then… 13:37:11 arseniiv: you can try running commands in HackEso/j-bot/lambdabot/fungоt that take some time to run, like up to ten seconds or whatever the timeout is, then if there's a lot of other chat, perhaps people will miss your command. 13:37:12 @metar lowi 13:37:13 LOWI 081320Z 28005KT 250V320 9999 FEW070 SCT100 14/06 Q1014 NOSIG 13:37:32 . o O ( winter is coming ) 13:37:33 arseniiv: it's the easiest with HackEso, since on a timeout, it just prints the output so far with no error message 13:37:53 `perl -efor(1..999){sleep 1;print("$_ ")} 13:38:12 wib_jonas: then if there's a lot of other chat, perhaps people will miss your command. => hmmmmn I have doubts 13:38:23 No output. 13:38:28 arseniiv: HackEso is also pretty programmable, so you can make it give surprising results that seem unconnected to your query 13:38:31 hmm 13:38:42 `perl -efor(1..999){sleep 1;print("$_ ");flush STDOUT} 13:38:49 hm 13:39:13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 13:39:18 fungot: let’s eat something 13:39:19 arseniiv: is that not many people have understanding the concept. on fnord, and so 13:40:06 lambdabot and j-bot support assignments too, so you can just make any variable or function have an unexpected value, and in j-bot, you can even change values from private message if you know the right incantations, but the drawback is that j-bot and lambdabot always mentions the nick of whoever they reply to 13:40:24 no wait 13:40:28 lambdabot doesn't 13:40:34 and you can give assignments in private message 13:42:06 but it's not easy in either j-bot or lambdabot to redefine builtins 13:42:14 eg. it's not easy to make them say that 2+2 is 5 13:42:16 > 2+2 13:42:18 4 13:42:20 [ 2+2 13:42:21 wib_jonas: 4 13:42:50 if you try to redefine (+), you just get a message about how it's ambiguous with Prelude.(+) 13:43:44 iirc rust works more sanely, because wildcard imports (like how you import every symbol that Prelude exports) can be shadowed by a symbol that is either local to a package or imported by name 13:49:39 > maр (10*) [3,1,4,1,5,9,2] -- arseniiv 13:49:40 [30,10, Ok, this is getting boring 13:50:00 you can try to cheat that way 13:50:58 hee 13:51:27 -!- fungot has quit (Changing host). 13:51:27 -!- fungot has joined. 13:52:17 -!- HackEso has quit (Changing host). 13:52:17 -!- HackEso has joined. 13:53:18 there's one way that buubot3 lets you cheat: while it's running the eval command (which evaluates a perl statement) in a sandbox, it's running all of them in the same sandbox, so if more than one buubot command is simultaneously running an eval, than one can kill, or perhaps even ptrace, the other 13:53:32 ptrace may be impossible, but I experimented with killing a lot 13:54:40 fizzie: no! don't add cloaks. they're usually longer than an ordinary hostname, so the max response length that they can give gets shorter 13:55:02 fizzie: or if you do give them cloaks, then make sure to edit the spore or similar commands in HackEso to know about the new max message length 13:58:28 ``` perl -e'for$n(0..49){printf"%02d",$n;for$l("A".."Z"){print $l,lc($l)}}' | sport 13:58:29 1/6:00AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz01AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz02AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz03AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz04AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz05AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz06AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz07AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz08AaBbCcDdE 13:58:31 `n 13:58:31 2/6:kLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz09AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz10AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz11AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz12AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz13AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz14AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz15AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPpQqRrSsTtUuVvWwXxYyZz16AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHhIiJjKkLlMmNnOoPp 13:58:55 fizzie: ^ see, sport skipped some letters between 08 and 09 there 13:58:56 wib_jonas: Kind of too late now, didn't think of that. :/ 13:59:04 wtf does sport do 13:59:15 `? sport 13:59:16 sport divides its input into irc-sized pieces and displays the nth (default first). The pipe version of `1. See also spore. 13:59:16 `? spore 13:59:17 spore stores its input in tmp/spout and displays the nth line (default first). For a version considering irc line lengths, see sport. See also `spam. 13:59:48 fizzie: for lambdabot, it probably matters less, because it has a very short message length on channels, and breaks into multiple lines for private messages 13:59:58 but for HackEso this should be changed I think 14:00:17 also now it can look at the IRC_* variables to know how long the target is 14:01:05 also, this is the sort of thing why I don't trust the HackEso scripts and just use coreutils and perl one-liners when using HackEso 14:01:49 lambdabot's fairly conservative about IRC message lengths... I seem to recall 350 characters for privmsg? 14:02:18 HackEso was tuned for throughput, not reliability. 14:02:19 it gave up after two list entries above, so that should fit 14:02:34 I'm kind of reluctant to bother them again, after I mentioned the cloaks after the Sigyn whitelisting and they said it would've been nice to have been told about that first. 14:03:06 fizzie: sorry, I didn't know that you'd be applying for cloaks 14:03:09 I would have told otherwise 14:03:15 Yeah, I should've mentioned. 14:03:37 I never asked cloaks for my bots, because the hostname that they used was shorter than any cloak 14:03:57 that said, you could of course try to register the esolangs community and get shorter cloaks eventually after a year.... 14:04:00 nah 14:04:01 I don't think it's an issue for fungot, since it's got a conservative max length too. And probably not for esowiki either, because it doesn't matter if it truncates long titles a little more. 14:04:01 fizzie: let's try to factor 4 using shor's algorithm. :)... nah, just obfuscating often result in getting a scheme to play with them.) 14:04:17 For HackEso it's a little unfortunate. 14:04:32 I remember we changed the username to ~h to get a few extra characters out. 14:04:48 yes. we should golf the channel name too. 14:05:08 sadly iirc freenode doesn't allow non-ascii channel names 14:05:35 pfffft. 14:06:08 so we can't use the four-byte channel name #ꙮ 14:06:29 Well, I'll look at the length situation when I get home. 14:06:35 thank you 14:07:33 `unidecode ꙮ 14:07:33 ​[U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] 14:07:53 Heh, I guessed correctly. 14:10:52 and HackEso's old hostname is pretty short too 14:11:25 we'll cope 14:11:29 shorter than some ipv4 addresses 14:11:48 `? oerjan 14:11:48 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it. 14:11:50 int-e: sure, by breaking messages to more likes, causing more spam 14:12:02 Even this quote fits. ;-) 14:12:16 Err wisdom. 14:16:56 `? ance 14:16:57 Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, 14:16:58 `? brilliant 14:16:59 ​B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h̽̀âͮn̩̈́g̫ͣe͉͒ ͦ̓y̙͕o̔͒u̷ͬr͂͐ ̓͝l͙͐ȉ͕f̹́ẹ̲ ̤̹F̌ͅÒ 14:17:00 `? zarutian 14:17:01 You can trust Zarutian. He fixes, as an electronics technician, banal mistakes of electronics engineers. Rather cy(ph|b)erpunkish in outlook regarding the 'Net. Knows more about ocaps than you can imagine. Possesses an Icelandic unnerver that ejects freezingly hot lava out of its business end. Bears an 'Authentic fakes provider' seal from the guild of Realers. He is also known for making rather long HackEgo wisdom entries. Take for instance th 14:17:08 HackEso says that these three are now too long 14:17:09 [[Byter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66561&oldid=66560 * PaniniTheDeveloper * (+0) 14:17:42 but the others are probably fine 14:17:57 wib_jonas: request permission to delete that wisdom entry 14:18:06 wib_jonas: (the br* one) 14:23:58 int-e: I'm not associated with that one 14:24:39 int-e: I suggest to also delete wisdom/$'\xCC\x9A\xCC\x82'* 14:24:51 but you may want to check the hg history first 14:25:04 the longest potentially valuable wisdom is welcome.ru 14:25:10 `? welcome.ru 14:25:11 ​Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: . (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.) 14:25:38 `forget brilliant 14:25:39 Forget what? 14:25:57 I think with a 16-byte nickname, welcome.ru might just about fit in the output 14:26:25 `добро-пожаловать zemhill_________ 14:26:26 zemhill_________: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: . (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.) 14:26:35 `добро-пожаловать 1zemhill_________ 14:26:36 1zemhill_________: Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: . (Для другого типа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet. 14:26:39 yep 14:26:46 exact length 14:26:50 we don't have to change that one 14:26:53 or... 14:26:54 wait, 14:27:32 does this web client enable that obsolete extension that adds a one character prefix to messages telling whether the user is logged in to nickserv? 14:27:49 some versions of xchat enables them, and then you get one fewer bytes of space 14:28:51 Maybe. Both the zemhill_________ and 1zemhill_________ ones fit in here. 14:29:04 Oh, no, it didn't, I'm just blind. 14:29:18 The latter cut off the ). So either the web client doesn't, or this client does. 14:29:52 the web client cust off the one with 1zemhill*, but that's an overlong nickname 14:29:55 `q 729 14:29:56 729) itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h 14:30:11 ^ that one does fit 14:30:18 ``` q 729; echo "and more" 14:30:20 729) itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h \ 14:30:30 and it's our longest quote 14:30:49 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:31:00 so lucky 14:32:06 `? pdf 14:32:10 PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format. 14:32:12 `? wisdom.pdf 14:32:13 Nicely formatted classical wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf 14:41:46 We recently had the occasion to send some PDF files to an official thing, and turns out they were only able to view some of them. Presumably due to some sort of software incompatibility somewhere. 14:43:20 I couldn't find out any sort of patterns in what worked and what didn't, though. The PDF 1.4 files generated by wkhtmltopdf were fine. The ones that allegedly only showed up as blank were PDF 1.3 and 1.5 files (but why would they support only 1.4 in the middle?), generated by printing from Gimp or with 'pdftk' concatenating from various sources. 14:43:41 All in all, it was a pretty depressing format. 14:43:49 -!- imode has joined. 14:45:59 fizzie: perhaps the default options were changed between those versions because people did debug out what doesn't work and reported which features some official things don't support 14:46:17 you could probably fix it by changing the options, but you don't know what you have to change the options to 14:46:31 fizzie: it wasn't a paper size thing, right? 14:46:48 Not as far as I can tell, they were all A4 according to pdfinfo. 14:46:58 It's a Pretty Dubious Format too. 14:48:10 ...well, there are *some* differences in paper size, some are "595.28 x 841.89 pts (A4)" and others "595 x 842 pts (A4)". 14:48:43 how do you draw .38 pts? 14:49:09 I think my current plan is to print all the non-working ones, and send them the PDFs generated by the printer/scanner/copier machine at work, under the assumption that that's been engineered to work as widely as possible. 14:53:50 fizzie: you don't support "1.4 in the middle". you support the brand new 1.4 as soon as it comes out, drop support for 1.3 and never update to 1.5 once it shows up 14:55:10 Potable Document Format - perfect for drinking games. 15:01:25 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:11:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:14:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:23:36 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:26:37 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:32:41 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:40:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:41:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:41:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 16:18:07 int-e: one time or another, I think we all guessed that (at least to Adobe) it was a Profitable Document Format 16:18:26 s/at least / 16:18:47 It may be that. 16:25:56 if one stels i and f from “profitable” (getting “portable”) and adds them to “acrobat”, it will become an obvious/ominous “boar if cat” 16:26:02 steals* 16:26:23 it was Adobe’s plan all along! 16:27:20 and it certainly is not something good. I don’t know what it is though 16:29:21 here's another: potentially dangerous file 16:30:09 programmable dangerous format. 16:58:10 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:00:10 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:21:29 [[DNA-Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66562&oldid=46377 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) conversion for quine section 17:25:43 [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66563&oldid=66562 * Dtuser1337 * (+5) /* Quine */ symbol mode quine 17:25:56 [[DNA-Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66564&oldid=66563 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Quine */ oops 17:26:28 so apparently HackEso pays 18 bytes more tax to freenode per line than it used to 17:33:38 [[DNA-Sharp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66565&oldid=66564 * Dtuser1337 * (+54) /* Quine */ possible implementation of the helix converted version from the line version. 17:34:46 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:41:23 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66566&oldid=66240 * Dtuser1337 * (-3) /* commands */ 17:44:48 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66567&oldid=66566 * Dtuser1337 * (-104) /* commands */ 17:45:08 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66568&oldid=66567 * Dtuser1337 * (-13) /* commands */ 17:55:16 -!- joast has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:57:21 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66569&oldid=66568 * Dtuser1337 * (+132) /* commands */ 17:58:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:50 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66570&oldid=66569 * Dtuser1337 * (+156) /* commands */ 18:04:00 -!- joast has joined. 18:06:54 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66571&oldid=66570 * Dtuser1337 * (+86) /* commands */ 18:07:24 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66572&oldid=66571 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* commands */ 18:11:50 -!- tromp has joined. 18:16:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:24:14 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:38:02 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66573&oldid=66572 * Dtuser1337 * (+772) /* commands */ 18:38:16 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66574&oldid=66573 * Dtuser1337 * (-2) /* errors */ 18:41:34 -!- interruptinuse has joined. 18:45:14 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66575&oldid=66574 * Dtuser1337 * (+74) /* errors */ 18:48:32 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66576&oldid=66575 * Dtuser1337 * (+65) /* errors */ 18:52:04 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66577&oldid=66576 * Dtuser1337 * (+37) /* commands */ 19:00:52 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66578&oldid=66281 * Dtuser1337 * (+80) 19:01:27 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66579&oldid=66578 * Dtuser1337 * (+130) 19:03:46 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66580&oldid=66577 * Dtuser1337 * (+47) /* Hello world! */ 19:06:36 fizzie: and as for the original moderation problem, shachaf looks pretty reliable and he's often here, so maybe you should give him channel op rights 19:08:27 not happening 19:08:43 ok 19:08:58 I can't think of anyone else that's so often here and looks reliable though 19:09:07 so in that case we'll have times with no moderators paying attention 19:09:15 I certainly can't be trusted 19:09:41 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66581&oldid=66580 * Dtuser1337 * (+76) /* errors */ 19:10:57 hmm... maybe FireFly is trustable 19:11:03 I think it was a good idea to exempt esowiki, though; to a machine, the above could look pretty spammy. 19:11:27 fizzie: certainly when our norwegian village edits the same page twenty times in a row 19:11:55 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66582&oldid=66581 * Dtuser1337 * (+70) /* commands */ 19:12:42 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66583&oldid=66582 * Dtuser1337 * (+20) /* examples */ 19:12:58 I'm not sure I pay a lot of attention here, but if desired could probably deal with clear abuse when spotted 19:13:10 hm 19:14:19 by the way, I really hope that Dtuser1337 is not another alias of Areallycoolusername 19:15:40 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66584&oldid=66583 * Dtuser1337 * (+19) /* Roll a dice */ 19:16:35 hmm... as for moderation 19:17:33 [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66585&oldid=66584 * Dtuser1337 * (+41) /* errors */ 19:17:46 -!- tromp has joined. 19:17:47 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:20:09 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:21:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:22:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:27:25 Hooloovo0: I did the float tank thing 19:27:38 it was neat 19:27:43 how so? 19:27:54 FireFly: since I'm so rarely in #jsoftware, you now have chanserv +f privilages, which means you can modify the chanserv access list 19:27:56 well, I felt very relaxed 19:28:12 and being weightless is great for any kind of physical stress / muscle pain 19:29:08 yeah, that makes sense 19:29:13 how long were you in it? 19:29:20 I think I would get more out of it if I was better at mediation 19:29:23 an hour 19:29:39 did it feel like an hour? 19:29:55 they do 15 minutes of soothing hippie nature/flute music followed by 40 minutes of silence, followed by 5 min of hippie music to bring you back 19:30:03 but you can also provide your own soundtrack 19:30:09 eh I lost track of time 19:30:31 weightless => yes, I do ordinary swimming, and it is so much better than other forms of sport activities to people like me who aren't particularly sporty or fit 19:30:37 -!- int-e has left. 19:30:57 I also found it hard to give a shit about my usual upsetting thought loop subjects, even when I tried deliberately as an experiment 19:31:05 which was a concern of mine so that's cool 19:31:19 being alone with my thoughts is not always very pleasant 19:31:26 yeah 19:31:39 anyway it was a cool experience 19:31:44 I find it easy to lose track of time while meditating 19:32:04 I bought a book on meditation and will start practicing 19:32:10 not sure how I feel about music, I tend to prefer complete silence I think 19:32:17 and maybe go back to the tank in a month 19:32:34 (I bought a 3 session package deal at deep discount for new customers) 19:32:44 ouch. I hate complete silence, but luckily never experience complete silence here in the city. 19:32:48 no music makes sense though 19:38:51 I have very rarely experienced complete silence 19:39:30 there's always crickets chirping, wind, fans, or any number of other things 19:40:03 certain basements can get pretty close, but there's usually at least mains hum from the transformers 19:42:34 but do you like it when it's so silent? for hours that is, not just a few minutes 19:50:08 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66586&oldid=66316 * Joshop * (+367) Cthulhu 19:52:02 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:52:30 it's not unpleasant to me 19:52:58 ok 19:57:11 -!- atslash has joined. 20:01:14 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:04:37 -!- atslash has joined. 20:07:44 -!- int-e has joined. 20:35:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:37:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:06:03 -!- tromp has joined. 21:11:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:26:02 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:26:27 -!- atslash has joined. 21:26:39 -!- MDude has joined. 21:49:14 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6). 21:49:46 -!- imode has joined. 21:52:19 -!- tromp has joined. 22:26:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:38:16 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6). 22:42:02 -!- imode has joined. 23:02:13 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:02:47 -!- atslash has joined. 23:27:35 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:40:35 -!- FreeFull has quit. 2019-10-09: 00:47:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:49:55 -!- ais523_ has joined. 00:51:55 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 00:52:12 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 00:55:49 -!- tromp has joined. 01:03:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:07:23 -!- tromp has joined. 01:12:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:31:25 hmm, you know how a while back we had a conversation here about how "son" and "sun" are spelled differently despite being pronounced the same? apparently this stems from an ambiguity in an old handwriting style, where "u" and "n" looked a lot like || and "m" like |||, so scribes generally changed "un" and "um" to "on" and "om" so that they at least 01:31:26 had a chance of being readable 01:31:51 so both the "son" and "sun" spellings ended up in common use, and ended up being attached to different words 01:32:34 The other day I was reading a poem which rhymed "love" with "prove" and "remove". 01:32:43 (~150 years old.) 01:32:56 I thought the pronunciation of "love" changed, but maybe it's all the other "ove" words that changed instead? 01:34:04 I think in some traditions of poetry it's acceptable to "rhyme" words simply because they look like they should rhyme, regardless of pronounciation 01:34:07 it's known as an "eye rhyme" 01:34:08 And presumably, they only settled on a single spelling much later, and just _picked_ one for each? 01:34:14 not sure if your poem was one of them 01:34:20 I'm kind of skeptical about this specific case. 01:34:34 I've seen it in multiple poems, and this poem didn't have any other cases that looked like that. 01:34:37 pikhq: I wasn't around at the time, I don't know the details 01:35:12 :P 01:55:36 -!- tromp has joined. 02:03:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:13:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:18:32 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:18:56 -!- heroux has joined. 02:43:14 `? towkr 02:43:15 towkr? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:59:14 `icode > maр (10*) [3,1,4 02:59:15 ​[U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0440 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ER] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+002C COMMA] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+002C COMMA] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR] 02:59:30 thought so 03:00:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 03:08:00 I see, I see. Yes, makes perfect sense 03:09:16 > "maр (10*) [3,1,4" 03:09:18 "ma\1088 (10*) [3,1,4" 03:10:13 HackEso says that these three are now too long <-- weren't they always 03:10:42 `5 w 03:10:44 1/1:le/rn//le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn // \ civic duty//Civic duty is your duty to keep your Honda in tip-top shape. \ 01//01 is an abbreviation that 01 understands. \ soup//What soup, Doc? \ group//Groups are just loops with the property of associativity. 03:11:04 I feel like the joke in le/rn should be deleted due to being so out of date. 03:11:30 `cwlprits brilliant 03:11:32 int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän 03:11:32 The "[/]" should probably also be deleted. 03:11:41 * oerjan looks sternly at int-e 03:11:57 it's still allowed 03:23:23 I'm not sure I pay a lot of attention here, but if desired could probably deal with clear abuse when spotted <-- you're already an op through the staff cloak btw 03:23:41 assuming we added that correctly 03:24:59 fancy 03:25:50 by the way, I really hope that Dtuser1337 is not another alias of Areallycoolusername <-- i think we established that is not the same person as the bbc village in norway 03:26:32 (don't know a about Dtuser1337, it's ais523_ who knows how to check such things) 03:26:44 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:26:58 I think it's unlikely enough not to need checking 03:27:05 ok 03:27:15 but yes, ARCUN only has one account 03:27:41 i think e really meant a 03:27:42 I was surprised to learn that the accounts were different, but in retrospect there are noticeable differences between the two people you can spot if you look for them 03:27:52 yes, it's a who has all the accounts 03:28:04 i mean, whether e was Dt* 03:28:08 anyway 03:28:25 there sure are a lot of new wiki users 03:28:41 we get new users at a pretty rapid rate 03:28:50 although most disappear after posting one esolang or making one edit 03:28:56 hm 03:29:47 i'm sort of wonder if that discord esolang channel has more users than this channel, i've never used it 03:29:50 *wondering 03:30:16 there are a surprisingly large number of people who refuse to use Discord on principle, I'm one of them 03:30:30 however I am generally OK with bridging bots that connect IRC and Discord channels together 03:31:06 CGCC had an ad to the wiki but it no longer does, so i'm not sure where they're still coming from :P 03:31:23 perhaps next year we should try to bring that ad back 03:31:26 it was a good ad 03:31:45 oerjan: Sorry, all the tentacles and other appendices exceeded my pain threshold. 03:31:46 that said, it'd be nice to make the wiki more non-esoprogrammer-friendly before that 03:31:59 (in particular, some way to find which languages were actually good, more content on the relevant pages, etc.) 03:32:11 the issue being that nobody seems to have the spare time and motivation to put in the work 03:32:18 `zalgo i can't imagine what you mean 03:32:19 i̲͊ ̡̣c̖̞aͤ͘n̮̉'̹̥t͕͏ ̺̬i̘͐m̠̈́a̼̫g̼̒i͚̒n͐̂e̡͇ ̠͂w̟̔ẖ͉á̷t̼ͩ ̓̾y̑ͪo̖ͦuͣ̒ ̒͗m͑̀e̩̱a̗̹n̟̘ 03:32:33 argh 03:32:57 . o O ( i've found int-e's secret weakness MWAHAHAHA ) 03:33:17 This is worse than fn*rds. 03:33:21 fnords 03:33:33 oerjan: Remember when some unknown set of Unicode characters would mess up my terminal? 03:33:36 Good times. 03:33:48 fungot: do you know anything about those? 03:33:49 oerjan: i was busy because of homeworks and projects and so on 03:33:57 apparently not 03:35:54 `? zalgo 03:35:55 zalgo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:36:33 `le/rn zalgo//The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN conventions. 03:36:35 Learned 'zalgo': The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN conventions. 03:37:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:38:34 `slwd zalgo//s/UN/UN(icode)/ 03:38:36 zalgo//The `zalgo` command turns perfectly good text into toxic waste. It violates a multitude of UN(icode) conventions. 03:39:06 what was the sed-last command again btw? 03:40:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:40:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:42:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 03:42:35 `` echo bin/sedlast 03:42:36 bin/sedlast 03:42:43 um wait 03:42:49 `` echo bin/*last 03:42:50 bin/sedlast 03:43:04 well it was right, anyway 03:43:24 wow, a logically named command 03:43:31 no wonder I didn't find it 03:44:28 (but tbh I was just too lazy to look... it was less mental effort to use `slwd and retype the entry name) 03:44:40 shocking 03:45:01 "effort" is a bit of a joke here. 03:53:00 `quote lazy 03:53:01 601) elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then? 03:53:27 `quote lazi 03:53:27 No output. 03:53:40 i guess no one bothered to add more 03:53:49 `wisdom laz 03:53:50 That's not wise. 03:53:58 `grwp laz 03:53:59 angband:Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor. \ kanada:Your bankers' vain plazas never nurtured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all co 03:54:13 plaza. of course. 04:04:37 Do you like conflict-driven clause learning? 04:05:18 shachaf: See the logs. 04:07:49 Is picking out the next variable to branch on one of the trickiest things in SAT solvers? 04:08:03 Or is a rough heuristic about as good as a complicated one? 04:13:28 It's all heuristics. Selecting variables to branch on, when to restart, when to forget learned clauses, which clauses to learn in the first place, splitting clauses into hot and cold clauses of some sort for better locality... 04:13:45 Using lookahead for early branches, blah blah. 04:16:05 Oh, polarity of variables is in there as well (when you branch, do you try false or true first?) 04:16:15 It is kinda weird now seeing the nick "elliott" in quotes. 04:17:31 `quote pikhq 04:17:31 11) First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, you know the rest. \ 12) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 25) pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. ehird: consider low-gravity porn fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 82) Well yeah, but furthermore u 04:18:10 :) 04:18:45 is fungebob a precursor of fungot? 04:19:15 Nah, I think fungot had a different nick briefly. 04:19:15 pikhq: i almost got a bf interpreter. i'm not into guis at all." 04:20:24 `quote fungebob 04:20:25 25) pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. ehird: consider low-gravity porn fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. 04:21:11 sure, I guess 04:21:20 `quote fungot 04:21:20 Hooloovo0: no no no no no. well ok, perhaps that ruined my experience :) just saying that 04:21:21 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) i am sad ( of course 04:34:33 fungebob virtualpants 04:54:23 -!- tromp has joined. 04:59:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:37:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:49:02 -!- tromp has joined. 05:53:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:14:33 -!- tromp has joined. 06:52:02 ais523, pikhq, shachaf: see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-09-29.2161.html on "love" and "prove"; http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2019-08-29.2618.html on "sun" and "son" which started this conv'n 06:54:50 oerjan: yes, but Areallycoolusername has at least one alias 06:54:56 wait what? 06:55:01 ARCUN only has one account? ok 06:57:20 nah there is a second account, https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Jussef_Swissen 06:57:43 " ... i'm not sure where they're still coming from" => one user came to the channel and said he came from bfjoust 06:58:02 b_jonas: Hmm, the first page is in French. 06:58:32 " (in particular, some way to find which languages were actually good, more content on the relevant pages, etc.)" => yeah, that would take work 06:59:19 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 07:00:00 I prefer to spend my time writing a little documentation about languages that I find out about from outside the wiki 07:01:20 to be snarky, I could say that we have about 1500 languages on the language list, of which over 200 are languages by A, plus we have like 200 joke languages, so we might start to think of a button that goes to a random non-joke non-A language 07:02:12 " oerjan: Remember when some unknown set of Unicode characters would mess up my terminal?" => hmm, were you the one who catted irc straight into a terminal and complained when anyone typed a control-N? 07:03:53 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:03:58 b_jonas: ouch how close is that 200 to reality? (Re: A) 07:04:36 That was not me. 07:05:37 int-e: it's definitely over 200. I started counting to be able to definitely say that he has comfortably more languages than ais523 now and if his motivation was to be the creator with the most esolangs then he can stop now, and yes, I could say that 07:05:39 b_jonas: add BF derivatives in too 07:05:52 b_jonas: that is scary. 07:06:12 there's no real problem with creating 200 languages, the problem is with having 200 language ideas and not really fleshing out any of them 07:06:12 int-e: User:A used to have a list 07:06:26 ais523: yes, they're already listed on the joke page 07:06:36 though there are a few interesting bf derivatives of course 07:06:58 there are a surprising number of interesting BF derivatives, just /even more/ uninteresting BF derivatives 07:07:02 yep 07:07:21 b_jonas: I'm trying to ignore the problem. You may recall me talking about suppressing A-related esowiki messages. 07:07:25 in general, if you have a new idea for a command to add to an imperative language, BF makes a familiar base from which to start, and the resulting language probably won't be terrible 07:07:59 I've even seen at least one brainfuck derivative that makes sense to have been created as a bf derivative, as opposed to just being a cool idea that should have been turned to an esolang unrelated to bf 07:08:19 int-e: it's important to have all the edits here so that they can be reviewed, I normally rely on the #esoteric logs to work out what admin actions I need to take (although I do check Special:RecentChanges from time to time too) 07:08:49 ais523_: I wasn't suggesting to suppress them in general. 07:08:58 b_jonas: SMBF, Permanent Brainfuck, DoFuck probably all fall into that category (oddly, I don't think DoFuck's on the wiki) 07:09:10 DoFuck is on the wiki under another name iirc 07:09:36 I'm not convinced that SMBF is even usable 07:10:01 is permanent brainfuck the one where you can only change cells from 0 to 1? there's no article 07:10:03 ais523_: What I meant is that I, personally, have a specially crafted /ignore for that purpose. 07:10:08 in practice, it's mostly used as an efficient way to initialise the tape 07:10:24 yes, permanent BF is 0→1 only (or sometimes, + only with bignums) 07:10:49 there is an article but it's on a page whose intent was to centralise all the computationally interesting BF derivatives, then it didn't really get used 07:11:10 int-e: that's entirely reasonable, in fact I probably would have suggested it if you hadn't done it already 07:12:03 idea: merge all the BF equivalents into a single article 07:12:06 there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger which I think is computationally interesting 07:12:31 ais523: there's already one that merges some of them 07:12:59 or used to be one 07:13:13 " ... i'm not sure where they're still coming from" => one user came to the channel and said he came from bfjoust <-- i'm not asking about the channel but about the wiki, which is presumably where they found bfjoust first 07:13:30 maybe it was on a talk page? 07:13:38 there was a BF Joust competition on CGCC 07:13:57 (they got the idea from us but ran mostly independently; however, Lymia won it) 07:13:57 oerjan: I don't know 07:15:01 oerjan: there's a new user Msully4321 who came to do one constructive edit, and he says so on Introduce yourself, which is often a good motivation why people register on wikis, but they don't say how they found the wiki 07:15:51 I think at least one user said that they came from the esolang discord 07:16:33 do we know where kspalaiologos came from? 07:16:40 the real one, not the name-taking spammer 07:17:06 and one user, kmc, came from the ancient past of #esoteric by a time machine or something 07:17:59 I came from http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/ (linked to me by email) via Malbolge and INTERCAL 07:18:42 owo 07:18:45 I don't remember where I came from, possibilities are other freenode channels and via Intercal or unlambda or Piet/Chef. 07:19:05 oh, as for other websites 07:19:07 didn't you follow me from #nethack4? 07:19:49 i think i saw b_jonas on the iwc forum before he came here 07:20:13 i don't remember exactly how i came here but i was on the old esolang mailing list way back 07:20:19 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rosetta_Code occasionally has code in esoteric languages. should we try to advertise there, from like the pages of esolangs? 07:20:34 oerjan: that's possible, but I don't see how the iwc forum would direct here other than by Piet/Chef 07:21:04 and I don't think Piet/Chef is discussed on the forum at all other than in one doc bug report that I posted a few months ago 07:21:54 I also wrote obfuscated code in perl (and usually rather stupid ones, there's quite a few that I'm ashamed of, but there's a learning curve) so maybe someone directed me here from that 07:22:25 I don't even remember how I got here. 07:22:32 perlmonks.com is the first website on the web where I was an active contributor 07:22:36 but it was shortly followed by irc 07:22:39 wow, I just discovered a 49333400 byte Makefile on my computer 07:22:41 freenode specifically 07:22:50 ouch 07:22:57 Haha. Somebody put "(Not clickbait)" into a youtube video title... 07:23:01 it looks like some sort of benchmark for make implementations, luckily, rather than being intended to actually generate a useful output 07:23:27 based on the target names, I assume I wrote the script that generated it 07:23:40 (A video that doesn't interest me but that according to youtube is "trending" whatever that means) 07:24:12 "trending" on websites normally means that more people than predicted are visiting it, e.g. the number of views is high and increasing 07:24:16 int-e: yes, that occurs in titles often 07:24:25 (rather than being constantly popular, or just new) 07:24:26 whew 07:24:36 b_jonas: I bet I'll see it more often now that I'm on to this... uhm... trend. 07:25:34 I wonder what proportion of those are actually clickbait 07:26:21 that may depend on your definition 07:26:21 97% 07:27:14 I guess the definition of clickbait is "something which, based on the description of a link, causes someone to click the mouse more times than they would if they were correctly informed" 07:27:26 oerjan: that sounds made up, needs more precision 07:27:29 normally implying that you follow the link out of curiosity then dislike what's on the other end of it 07:27:40 oerjan: 97.3211421%, now we're talking. 07:28:03 OKAY 07:28:14 those things look a lot more convincing if they look like they were rounded from an actual fraction 07:28:27 97.3285714% or the like 07:28:44 ais523_: I know. It was part of the joke. 07:28:47 > 1/7 07:28:48 0.14285714285714285 07:28:58 ais523: right, and if that definition was correct then you should report every clickbait on youtube as having a misleading title or misleading thumbnail 07:29:11 I don't have a YouTube account, so it doesn't let me report things 07:29:22 otherwise, it seems like the sort of thing I would do :-D 07:29:41 ais523_: i'm not sure most people know that pattern (i only guessed) 07:29:54 oerjan: I think more people recognise it than know it 07:30:01 most people have seen it before even if they don't know what causes it 07:30:21 once each I have tried to report things on youtube or on ebay, but I found that even though the entry was clearly something that shouldn't be there, under the report menu there's no choice to report that particular offense among the report reasons 07:30:24 so it gives that feeling of familiarity that makes it more convincing, even if the viewer doesn't know why 07:30:31 so after that I basically gave up 07:30:37 I don't recally what it was for youtube, 07:31:36 but for ebay it was entries where they bunch a really cheap item together with a normal item into the same entry with those select boxes that you normally use to select sizes or colors, the title and first photo describes only the normal item, but the price displayed on the search list describes the very cheap item 07:32:14 they bunch large capacity fast sd cards with cheap sd card readers this way, but I've seen other similar combinations too 07:32:14 hmm, that could in theory be legitimate if the range of sizes were large enough 07:32:26 ais523_: no, because the title is misleading 07:32:41 USB sticks ranging from 256 MB to 256 GB, for example 07:32:48 it's not like "SD card 1 MB 1 GB 2 GB 4 GB 8 GB 16 GB", those are fine 07:33:07 it's "SD card 8 GB 16 GB" (with other qualifiers) and then one of the sizes is "card reader only" 07:33:10 256 MB USB sticks are probably close to worthless nowadays 07:33:21 ais523: no they're not 07:33:34 we use such small sized SD cards for small computers or embedded devices 07:33:42 where they don't have a built-in flash memory 07:33:45 i just realized that trending youtube items seem to be highly regional. i don't like that 07:33:45 hmm, I guess there must be a price floor for storage 07:33:48 but we have to store a small program or data on it 07:34:06 often you don't need much storage to, e.g., just transport single files around 07:34:17 b_jonas: that's nearly always microSD rather than USB, though 07:34:32 yes, there is a floor, but it's below 1 GB for _slow_ sd cards 07:34:52 yes, for USB it's less common these days 07:35:00 everything has micro-sd card readers built in 07:35:29 also, it's a bit odd, micro-sd cards with an sd adapter are cheaper than sd cards of the same parameter 07:35:37 laptops normally have readers for full-size SD cards but nothing smaller, you need the adapter 07:35:45 yes, and adapters are cheap 07:36:00 I've got a lot of them because they give them for practically free with micro-sd cards 07:36:30 I also have sd + micro sd combo readers with usb port, but I did have to buy them 07:36:45 how do SD cards compete with USB sticks for storage size nowadays? 07:37:08 is the only real difference the connection they use, or are microSD cards noticeably different in how they operate? 07:38:11 I think sd/micro sd cards are usually better, and I prefer them. usb sticks can be better when they're very large capacity, or if you want to keep it on a keychain so you don't lose it 07:38:37 I'm doing a backup onto a USB stick right now 07:38:44 I don't notice them being different in how they operate, but maybe I don't use them enough 07:38:59 for backup media, it's best for it to not be too physically small because that makes it easier to lose 07:39:10 yeah 07:40:25 USB sticks probably also have the advantage when it comes to desktop computers 07:40:43 because those often don't have a microSD port (sometimes they have one, sometimes not) 07:42:59 I wanted to say that I'm genrally good at not losing things, but I'm still looking for the red eyeglasses case that I had with me on my vacation 07:43:03 so I don't dare 07:58:27 I'd like to know if Xykon is still using Dorukan's Cloister spell at his current camp in the north 08:01:29 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:02:00 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:02:00 -!- b_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:03:45 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 08:20:42 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:28:23 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:54:42 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 08:59:34 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 09:12:03 @metar EGSN 09:12:04 No result. 09:12:14 @metar EGSC 09:12:14 EGSC 090850Z 24012KT 200V260 CAVOK 11/08 Q1003 09:13:53 hi Taneb 09:14:19 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 09:14:54 Hello! 09:15:38 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:23:14 @metar ESSB 09:23:15 ESSB 090850Z 10007KT 9999 -DZ BKN016 08/06 Q0999 09:26:12 I was mostly curious whether EGSN had meta data, it's a tiiiiny airport 09:28:54 longitutde: -0.0425... looks fake :) 09:29:42 -!- atslash has joined. 09:30:12 @metar EGBB 09:30:13 EGBB 090920Z 24009KT 210V270 9999 FEW017 11/08 Q1003 09:34:40 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:35:20 -!- atslash has joined. 09:36:07 wait... the world's tallest living trees are in the US? what the heck are tropical rainforests for then? 09:36:28 deforestation 09:36:33 Density 09:37:22 Also quick, relentless growth. 09:38:53 wow. "Recent reports indicate that trees can survive to be 1000 years old in the Amazonian rain forest." 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ified, i had a hard time doing these.
14:04:27  [[Cthulhu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66588&oldid=66587 * Dtuser1337 * (+40) Adding some category.
14:07:11  [[Cthulhu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66589&oldid=66588 * Dtuser1337 * (+26) MOAR Categories
14:08:08 -!- myname has joined.
14:08:18  [[Cthulhu]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66590&oldid=66589 * Dtuser1337 * (+38) Probably object oriented
14:18:07  [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66591&oldid=66585 * Dtuser1337 * (+29) /* errors */
14:27:06  [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66592&oldid=66591 * Dtuser1337 * (+28) /* commands */
14:29:45  [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66593&oldid=66592 * Dtuser1337 * (+46) /* errors */
14:34:06  [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66594&oldid=66593 * Dtuser1337 * (+31) /* errors */
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22:06:57  found the red glasses case. ok, now I can claim that I'm usually good at not losing my things
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00:34:13  hups, forgot to log out
00:44:08  apparently you didn't say that much
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06:53:13  `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-talk/
06:53:14  pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-talk/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
06:54:04  :(
06:57:36  yeah sorry, no olist yet
06:57:48  hopefully that will arrive soon too
06:58:48  how can i get on a list
07:06:58  with `` echo kmc >> bin/nameoflist
07:07:29  or these days, you can use `` echo $IRC_NICK >> bin/nameoflist
07:07:36  unless someone made a specific command, hm...
07:07:49  b_jonas: very convenient
07:08:47  `` echo $IRC_NICK
07:08:47  kmc
07:09:01  `` echo $IRC_NICK >> bin/pbflist
07:09:03  No output.
07:15:15  kmc: you may also review our selection of other lists
07:15:27  ``` set -e; cd bin; echo *list
07:15:28  FireFlist aglist bardsworthlist bobadventureslist calesyta2016list danddreclist don'taskdon'ttelllist dontaskdonttelllist ehlist emptylist erflist flist idealist ioccclist keenlist list listlist llist makelist makelistlist minimalist mlist olist pbflist slist smlist stylist testlist xkcdwhatiflist ysaclist
07:17:40  am i supposed to run listlist when i update a list?
07:17:55  ``` set -e; cd bin; wc -l *list | sort -rn | head -n9 # these are the popular ones
07:17:55  ​  86 total \    9 slist \    8 pbflist \    8 olist \    6 smlist \    4 xkcdwhatiflist \    4 listlist \    4 dontaskdonttelllist \    4 don'taskdon'ttelllist
07:18:07  `` paste < bin/ioccclist
07:18:09  https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.10575
07:18:49  that is... a bizarre way to do that
07:18:49  `? ioccclist
07:18:50  ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
07:19:42  what the fuck is ${@:+ }$@
07:20:38  `` echo rain2 >> bin/ioccclist
07:20:40  No output.
07:20:41  `` echo rain1 >> bin/ioccclist
07:20:43  No output.
07:21:03  kmc: prints its argument, with a colon before if it's not empty
07:21:03   `` paste < bin/ioccclist <-- paste takes a filename, which has the advantage of using its url if it's exposed to web
07:21:14  aha
07:21:37  kmc: so we can invoke lists with an argument that is a url pointing to the news
07:22:06  o is numbered in a regular way, so there we use a strip number instead and the olist script makes a url from that
07:22:17  but for most lists we use a full url
07:25:02  i don't think the olist script makes a url
07:25:32  hmm true, it doesn't
07:26:18  s/empty/present/
07:26:36 * oerjan usually visits the archive page first, anyhow, to see the title and check if he's missed one
07:26:39  or so I think
07:26:47  I'm not sure how @ works in such a case really
07:27:32  I usually visit the archive page to re-read the previous strip before reading the current one. I don't usually miss an o, except when on a long vacation
07:28:48  these days I'm the one who first lists them half of the time
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07:59:39  [[Transceternal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66595 * Hakerh400 * (+11850) Create a new language
08:01:13  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66596&oldid=66513 * Hakerh400 * (+20) Add a new language to the language list
08:01:30  [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66597&oldid=66037 * Hakerh400 * (+20) 
08:03:13  [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66598&oldid=66595 * Hakerh400 * (+6) 
08:04:00  Hah. http://blog.hackensplat.com/2011/02/vinegar.html
08:20:15  [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66599&oldid=66598 * Hakerh400 * (+24) 
08:42:22  [[Transceternal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66600&oldid=66599 * Hakerh400 * (+5) 
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09:16:24  `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:16:25  Yar... COG et eo rdeai.   :(   Et eo tsmeai?
09:16:51  `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:16:51  OA EOAEW URNEIAUNOMEA DAOMEITDW (CH SOE AUKOT CHA):  Th fuaa oyl adi tylroettea, sutt et purtyl otn, hsei soe Cern otn mhrrog BHAFEIT. Gegidtten teotn sd sei Pdliei Lonrei!
09:17:16  Lykaina: ^ random quote transformed by a substitution cipher where the most frequent letter is replaced by "e", the second most frequent by "t", etc
09:17:50  for some longer quotes with reasonable words, it will get the most frequent letters right, so it does the easy part of solving the cipher for you
09:17:52  `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:17:52  Fseoaid_Siiytn: Hio'a gt oerap; st'r e mloeauc, oia e dlnhtntn.
09:17:55  `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:17:56  22:55 < jpl> Usk tr E ibhhsiof ns fomodsh ispnktlo ea Uticodd ep E wta'n omoa  hlohtlo rz hlsgowni ea BRD?! En ioori deco ta erhsiiexdo ntic.   UTUT [...]  nuei ei trtveay, deco rooneay t Rslrsa sl isronueay
09:18:23  `perl -eopen$I,"<","quotes";@A=<$I>;$l=$A[rand@A]; while($l=~/([A-Za-z])/g){ $f{lc$1}++;$g{lc$1}//=$_g++; } $p=join("",sort{$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}||$g{$b}<=>$f{$a}}"a".."z"); $q="etoainsrlhdumcgypfwbkvzjxq"; eval"\$l=~y/$p\U$p\E/$q\U$q/"; print $l;
09:18:24  Ot's doke uatreuatofoais, yrele tre ievt steh ph wlnu "tlozoad" os "nhei lesealfr jpestoni".   "Inhe... In...Tros hlnmdeu fai't me bnie AT ADD. Tros nie--uagme, mpt nidg yotr tyn gaks aib a srelha. ..."
09:18:50  wib_jonas: hmm, I wonder how different it would look if you did it digramwise
09:19:13  I guess that's trickier because each symbol can be in two digrams
09:19:13  hmm #esoteric-spam
09:19:17  Taneb: you could do a better solver, but I'd add different heuristics, like matching nicks and other common words
09:20:51  `q 134
09:20:51  134)  It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question".   "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
09:20:58  that's the last quote it gave
09:21:15  so it got e, t, s, a right
09:24:17  Oh, we have a genuine password of the month candidate: https://leahneukirchen.org/blog/archive/2019/10/ken-thompson-s-unix-password.html
09:24:42  we already have one, though
09:26:11  which is why I'm posting the link, not changing the potm entry
09:26:39  right, it's not necessarily for this month, since the passwords are old too
09:26:49  (but it's worth clarifying the point, thanks!)
09:27:35  It's kind of interesting that this wasn't in common word lists... it will be from now on :)
09:27:50  (and that goes for all chess moves)
09:28:47  sure, password reuse exists, so we add known passwords to lists
09:29:08  (the exclamation mark is funny)
09:33:37  somehow I'm reminded of Countercall
09:49:20  int-e: might help that it used a notation that's AIUI not in common use anymore (re not being in wordlists)
09:58:11  FaeFly: sure. "algebraic" notation won
09:59:10  FaeFly: But I'm not a chess player and I've encountered this notation before so I'm assuming that at least 10s of thousands people know it :P
10:00:15  *nod*
10:07:07  int-e: sure, Lewis Caroll made sure we all meet the obsolete notation
10:08:40  There's that. Though one can enjoy the book without deciphering the chess game (I certainly didn't).
10:09:07  Or "did"? Hrm. Grammar.
10:09:41  "did" is better, referring to the whole "enjoying the book without deciphering the chess game" notion.
10:09:52  int-e: istr the chess game itself is hard to decipher, because we don't see all its moves...
10:10:04  there was a question on Stack Exchange about that somewhere
10:10:19  but I'm not sure if it was on Chess SE or Sci Fi SE or the new Lit SE
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10:11:22  https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/26946/4918
10:11:30  the chess game in Through the Looking Glass
10:12:57  That's a relief. :)
10:13:21  (I was kind of afraid of there being a sensible game hiding underneath all the silliness.)
10:14:22  I suppose this is a bit like searching for the real question when pondering HHGttG.
10:14:42  (Or worse, coming up with an explanation involving base 13)
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11:29:20  [[BareMinimum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66601&oldid=61572 * Joshop * (+243) Added some "useful subexpressions".
11:30:41  [[BareMinimum]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66602&oldid=66601 * Joshop * (-2) 
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14:53:44  `python3 -cprint(0.0254/4) # how much is 1/4 inch?
14:53:45  0.00635
15:08:53  `? stunlock
15:08:54  stunlock? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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15:10:58  fungot, how many of the sides of a square is one of the longest sides?
15:10:58  wib_jonas: it would be sorta pointless to implement these commands, because they're in scope down the whole campbell/ darcs/ schemd5?".
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15:43:21  `python3 -cprint(3**5)
15:43:22  243
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15:55:56  kmc: You can make a list with makelist, which automatically runs listlist.
15:56:22  Wait, no, that's makelistlist.
15:56:40  listlist just lists lists.
15:56:53  `listlist
15:56:53  FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
15:57:31  is there a version that only lists lists that don't appear in themselves?
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19:48:59  [[BCDFuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66603&oldid=34211 * Rdebath * (+1110) Some example code.
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19:50:38  [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66604&oldid=66404 * Rdebath * (+174) Add BCDFuck
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19:51:45  [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66605&oldid=66604 * Rdebath * (+2) mutter
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20:42:37  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * MatthewS *  New user account
20:46:43  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Matthew *  New user account
20:52:21  `? keenlist
20:52:22  keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast
20:54:49  yeah, that one is a bit silly
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22:07:03  TIL that in Cats, the character that Gus used to play is not called "Firefoefiddle", he's called "Firefrorefiddle",
22:07:15  and that "frore" is a word that means cold.
22:07:36  it's strange that I hadn't met that before. if there's such a fancy word for cold, then why is it not used in D&D and other role-playing games?
22:07:44  like, for spells that invoke the elemental cold
22:09:02  even M:tG doesn't have that in any card title
22:09:23  You mean in Eliot's poem, _Gus: The Theatre Cat_?
22:09:33  yes, but more so in the musical
22:10:46  It's a rare word, it's not in my Longman dictionary, only the larger Oxford
22:11:17  still, M:tG uses such rare words, and there was a whole Coldsnap set, so it's weird
22:14:39  Firefrorefiddle the Fiend of the Fell must have had abilities affecting three D&D elements: fire, cold, and sonic.
22:22:02  Golly. I'd thought about homogeneous coordinates algebraically, but never geometrically.
22:22:16  Translation is just obviously rotation around a point at infinity.
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22:37:11  shachaf: hm rotations in P(V) around points on an affine map correspond to (some) rotations in V conjugated by a shear, and translations correspond to shears so probably together they unify somehow, though that’s not obvious to me
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22:37:59  though the intuition seems right to me too
22:39:10  not all shears of course, too, they all should be in a special relation with a hyperplane which defines that chosen affine map
22:41:54  hm let me talk about two strange coincedences in math and then I’ll go sleeping
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22:47:58  1. a translation is uniquely characterized by one of each initial and final points; a similarity transformation, a pair of each; an affine transformation, a triple; a projective one, a quadruple. I don’t know if there exists something more or less natural for which we need a quintuple. Is there any system in this sequence? I’m afraid no, it’s just some very well-known transformation groups so it seems like a coincidence they arrang
22:47:58  e this way
22:49:09  I'm currently reading https://slides.com/enkimute/siggraph which talks about all sorts of neat things.
22:49:35  2. map sin [0, pi/6, pi/4, pi/3, pi/2] == map (λx. sqrt x / 2) [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]
22:50:03  shachaf: oh, I’ll take a look tomorrow, then
22:50:48  and the second coincidence is confusing but happily mnemonic
22:52:52  shachaf: ooohh!! this is applied Clifford algebra! I hope those slides have that conformal thing explained, why it’s done that way
22:53:49  arseniiv: sure, a projective transformation in d dimensions is characterized by d+2 points, so for five points you want projective transformations in 3 dimensions. 
22:54:23  arseniiv: I worked with those in my last job, where at least one project involved 3D reconstruction from 2D camera images
22:54:30  b_jonas: ah, yes, I forgot it all stands only for a 3-dimensional space
22:54:51  I should have looked at an arbitrary dimension case
22:54:57  admittedly there we have use or two degrees of freedom less than a full projective transformation
22:55:02  maybe the sequence crumbles
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22:56:43  no, it's food that crumbles
22:59:00  also a while ago I found out there is a common confusion of homogeneous coordinates and, well, unhomogeneous coordinates concerning a use case when we use […, 0] for representing vectors and […, 1] for representing points. This system plays out very nicely but is commonly misattributed to projective stuff when it’s not
22:59:31  you may call the non-homogeneous coordinates euclidean
23:01:03  This system plays out very nicely => like, if there were only linear operations and the result has form […, 1] or […, 0], then we’ve done a correct affine calculation and the result is corresp. a point or a vector
23:02:30  b_jonas: generally we don’t need the overall space to be euclidean, though for simplicity we can take one
23:05:06  I don’t even remember what it should have in general so our points and vectors represented in this way have euclidean structure, the overall thing should be invariant under shears with some special hyperplane fixed
23:05:49  hm I think it gives rise to something Galileian, like the structure of the nonrelativistic spacetime
23:06:47  though even that is too much, we’re concerned with two hyperplanes only, not distances between any of them
23:10:16  for some reason I’m often interested in ways how can we omit the structure we don’t use in some contexts
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23:57:49  fungot, please publish the next o strip
23:57:50  b_jonas: i've never read a paper on using source-to-source transformations to compile scheme to c.
23:58:10  Isn't that Sgeo_'s job?
23:58:26  that's a suspiciously specific denial, fungot
23:58:26  b_jonas: you subtracted twice the orig value?' as ' swiping blindly'? yes, but

2019-10-11:

00:03:52  fungot, is Countercall turing-complete? can you give the main idea of the proof or disproof?
00:03:52  b_jonas: do you think? i mean suing them?)
00:06:55  Proof by lawsuit, one of the more general-purpose classes of proofs.
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03:25:19  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66606&oldid=66476 * Matthew * (+134) /* Introductions */
03:26:05  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66607&oldid=66606 * Matthew * (+10) /* Introductions */
03:32:40  [[User:Matthew]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66608 * Matthew * (+127) Created page with "Hello and welcome to my user page. I have created the following esoteric languages (a very expansive list I know): [[Rouedeux]]"
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03:36:50  [[User:Matthew]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66609&oldid=66608 * Matthew * (+1) 
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04:20:44  [[User:Matthew]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66610&oldid=66609 * Matthew * (+14) 
04:27:35  [[Rouedeux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66611 * Matthew * (+2327) Created page with "'''Rouedoux''' (pronounced roo-doo) is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Matthew]] in October 2019. The name Rouedeux is composed of the French words ''roue''..."
04:28:28  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66612&oldid=66611 * Matthew * (-3) 
04:32:27  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66613&oldid=66612 * Matthew * (+142) 
04:32:40  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66614&oldid=66613 * Matthew * (+1) 
04:33:32  [[Talk:Rouedeux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66615 * Matthew * (+131) ``
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04:47:59  [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66616&oldid=66325 * JonoCode9374 * (+72) /* Factorial */
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04:50:50  [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66617&oldid=66616 * JonoCode9374 * (+55) /* Example Programs */
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06:20:14  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66618&oldid=66596 * Matthew * (+15) 
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06:59:36  [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66619&oldid=66617 * JonoCode9374 * (+56) 
07:01:51  I wonder if there's such a thing as a fake Foucault pendulum, which looks like a real Foucault pendulum but is somehow rigged so that the plane of its swing remains fixed
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07:13:48  I imagine that Black Hat from xkcd could secretly modify an existing Foucault pendulum in a public space to one, using his stealth carpentry skills
07:26:27  sounds like a plan
07:27:14  while you're at it, how about making it turn at the right speed but in the wrong direction
07:28:39  which, apparently, would be counterclockwise for the northern hemisphere...
07:30:06  viewed from above
07:40:06  int-e: I thought of that, but I think making it not rotate would be better, because it would look like the Aristotelean or flat earth myths are true
07:40:30  if you want to control a pendulum in a way finer than that, you want to use it for divination, rather than as a Foucault pendulum
07:41:22  I guess you could try to be subtle and make it turn in the correct direction but just slightly faster than it should
07:41:31  see how long it takes until it's detected
07:42:42  also I think making it not turn at all would be the easiest to achieve technologically
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09:57:00  https://www.linusakesson.net/ seems like an interesting homepage with some esolang content. https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/symlinks/index.php is an esoteric language for example
10:02:10  zzo38: ^
10:17:00  and https://www.linusakesson.net/programming/gcr-decoding/index.php contains a rather crazy use of one of the undocumented opcodes of 6502
10:27:02  yeah, lft does cool demoscene stuffs
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17:33:37  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66620&oldid=66614 * Matthew * (-1) /* Program that prints the alphabet */
17:34:28  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66621&oldid=66620 * Matthew * (-33) /* Language overview */
17:37:18  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66622&oldid=66621 * Matthew * (+0) /* CAT program */
17:42:44  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66623&oldid=66622 * Matthew * (+199) /* Language overview */
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19:26:27  fungot, how much is 14*16?
19:26:27  b_jonas: i can't say for sure. :) i was student, ta, and phd student, though i don't do that
19:26:46  that was a rather coherent response.
19:27:10  I'll have to ask some other bot
19:27:13  [ 14*16
19:27:14  b_jonas: 224
19:29:38  fungot: can you do basic multiplication?
19:29:38  imode: i just remembered what esoteric programming is all about assumptions that the implementation features a srfi, be it cl or scheme. shivers is not interested in
19:29:50  good to know.
19:37:43  fungot, among the Sun's energy output, how much comes in the form of neutrinos?
19:37:43  b_jonas: oh... nice.
19:38:08  fungot: answer b_jonas' question.
19:38:08  imode: i did most of it has been fiz who has scared off most visitors.
19:42:29  https://repl.it/repls/TerribleFairCells
19:42:36  this appears quite legible.
19:43:06  almost like smalltalk.
19:44:59  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66624&oldid=66623 * Matthew * (+46) /* Commands */
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20:58:10  I didn't know I've scared anyone off. :/
20:58:47  I doubt that you have.
20:59:03  fungot is full of shit.
20:59:04  imode: not because the language evolved faster than the interpreted schemes which was kinda disappointing speed-wise.
20:59:26  Turns out that was more or less a literal quote from 2003.
20:59:38  [2003-01-20 23:36:53] <@DiamonDie> i think it has been fiz who has scared off most visitors.
20:59:46  from an op no less?
21:00:08  IIRC, on that channel all the regulars were ops.
21:00:59  Ngl imode's made me ambivalent on staying
21:02:12  everybody-being-an-op is easily ruined by the one bad egg that bans people at the drop of a hat.
21:02:58  used to be in a channel for a local hacker space. the youngest got angry in a discussion about C and banned 18 people.
21:03:46  Well, it was a 10-person social channel, not really for any particular topic. Those don't really have moderation issues so much.
21:03:56  makes sense.
21:04:24  shachaf: those slides mention “homogeneous coordinates” too in introductory examples :( if they were homogeneous, vectors with coordinates (1, 2, 3, 0) and (2, 4, 6, 0) would coincide but they should not. These are usual coordinates in (dimension + 1)
21:04:55  hopefully that misattribution isn’t mentioned in the body
21:05:17  Other way than everybody-being-an-op would be nobody-being-an-op is better than everybody-being-an-op, I think.
21:06:10  That's a pretty easy state to get to by accident on IRCnet, so I'm sure we spent some time like that too.
21:06:16  (No services.)
21:06:36  everybody can yell at eachother and nobody can do anything about it.
21:07:07  almost like twitter!
21:07:51  That is not true nobody can do anything about it; you can add filters into the client if you want to avoid receiving some messages.
21:08:19  that is true. I have to wonder what the potential partitioning would be for a really busy and hostile chat room.
21:08:52  i.e take 100 people, throw them in a chat room without moderators, see who ignores who. you'll probably end up looking like two or more "logical" rooms.
21:09:20  Maybe. I don't know.
21:09:56  (mainly, I don't know, because I haven't tried having 100 people in a chat room without moderators)
21:10:28  (Although IRCnet ircd 2.11 got a "reop mode" feature, where you can set +R nick!user@host masks with the usual wildcards, with the semantics that if the channel has been opless for a while, the server grants ops for a pseudorandomly selected user matching any of those masks.)
21:10:48  (I think there was also a no-ops-ever channel type? Might be misremembering that.)
21:11:31  Yes, some IRC servers if the channel prefix is + then it can have no modes (inclduing no operators).
21:12:09  There is also & for a channel local to the server and ! with a feature to avoid taking over channels when net split.
21:12:36  (The + and & types are also immune to taking over channels, but for other reasons.)
21:24:15  arseniiv: Oh, now I see what you meant.
21:24:46  shachaf: yeah, yesterday I completely forgot to mention this simple breaking example
21:31:52  what we have instead is just some hyperplane L “inhabited by vectors” and its shift, L + a where a is nonzero, “inhabited by points”; then obviously we can’t add two points and get a point, but we can take their linear combinations with total weight 1 (and get a point) or 0 (and get a vector), and also we can apply linear operators which take L to itself, on L + a such one acts as an affine operator, and on L it does as its lin
21:31:52  ear part, automatically. Now we may choose a basis in L and add a to it, so elements of L get coordinates (…, 0) and elements of L + a get (…, 1), voilà!
21:34:52  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66625&oldid=66624 * Matthew * (-5) /* Commands */
21:42:47  also we can make a silly groupoid on two objects from two parallel affine subspaces, taking morphisms between them be various translations from one to the other. When the outer space has no inner product, there are no natural translations so this is naturally a groupoid and not a group
21:45:45  (and these translations themselves constitute two isomorphic affine spaces)
21:46:07  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66626&oldid=66625 * Matthew * (+757) /* Examples */
21:47:51  isomorphic, but not naturally, to two starting subspaces, but naturally isomorphic (via f ↦ f⁻¹) with each other
21:52:25  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66627&oldid=66626 * Matthew * (-21) /* Hello world program */
22:06:13  [[La We]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66628&oldid=58468 * Pelirodri * (+1) 
22:57:17  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66629&oldid=66627 * Matthew * (+1129) /* If statement */
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23:02:48  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66630&oldid=66629 * Matthew * (+212) /* Hello world program */
23:10:31  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66631&oldid=66630 * Matthew * (+6) /* Language overview */
23:14:41  [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66632&oldid=66631 * Matthew * (+151) /* Language overview */
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2019-10-12:

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00:26:28  In GURPS, skills cost 4 points per level, and techniques cost 1 point per level. A technique improves your effective skill level for one use of the skill, but increasing the skill itself (for 4 points) improves your effective skill level for all uses of that skill. If you have many techniques, then it will cost too much points.
00:27:09  Therefore, I made up this variant rule:   techniquePoints = dotProduct x . reverse . sort where x = 1 : 1 : (half <$> x)
00:27:30  I think that mathematically it is better. Do you think that it is better?
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02:56:54  [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66633&oldid=66619 * JonoCode9374 * (+1177) Added a whole bunch of Reg commands added since the table was last changed
03:04:08  [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66634&oldid=66633 * JonoCode9374 * (+3812) 
03:15:44  What's the list for Charlie the Unicorn?
03:28:00  I am not aware.
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03:54:53  Stone of Lizard Men {2} Artifact ;; {X}, {T}: You may put a Lizard or Viashino card with converted mana cost less than X from your hand into the battlefield. If you do, add one mana of any color.
03:55:06  (It is a mana ability)
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04:04:15  Does any Haskell core library have a dot product function? (It is easy enough to implement; I am just wondering if it has already.)
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05:01:05  Apparently BBC BASIC has a built-in dot product function.
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05:45:15  huh
05:45:16  wonder why
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05:58:05  I don't know, but I think dot product can be a useful function in many programs, even with lists having arbitrary number of elements if they are not used as a vector, such as the code I mentioned above.
06:17:07  zzo38, gah I have to think twice to realize why that isn't actually broken as far as I can tell
06:17:47  Oh I just meant in terms of net mana. It being mana ability speed is probably really really interesting
06:25:18  Yes
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08:30:08  [[Talk:Kvikkalkul]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66635&oldid=8365 * YamTokTpaFa * (+292) /* I think I shall add grammar and several descriptions but */ new section
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10:40:03  `? log
10:40:04  `? logs
10:40:10  ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
10:40:11  ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
10:42:58  [[Esolang:Community portal]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66636&oldid=65802 * B jonas * (+109) /* #Esoteric */
10:44:19  ``` sed -i '1s"$" https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/"' wisdom/log
10:44:21  wisdom/log//#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
10:44:56  soon we'll have so many webpages with logs that they won't fit in the topic
10:46:52  (soon as in https://www.xkcd.com/605/ )
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11:15:13  it doesn't matter that the channel might be dead for half a day and only a few people reach it constantly
11:15:23  but we have a dozen of log copies, this is what matters
11:15:42  any turing complete, interesting and not-so-hard to implement languages out therE?
11:15:54  kept mashing random page button for around 15 minutes, nothing interesting so fafr
11:16:44  kspalaiologos: are you familiar with all of the Big Five?
11:16:55  Big Five?
11:16:56  what's this
11:17:02  probably I know what it represents
11:17:07  but I haven't heard the name yet
11:17:33  it goes like, Intercal, Malbolge, Befunge, Unlambda, Underload
11:17:37  btw, additional points if the source looks gibberish
11:17:43  five famous esoteric programming languages
11:17:46  yeah, I've heard bout them
11:17:54  no Brainfuck though, have you missed something?
11:18:02  I've programmed in every single one except Underload
11:18:05  no idea what's this
11:18:12  ah yes, must be brainfuck instead of Malbolge
11:18:24  Intercal, Brainfuck, Befunge, Unlambda, Underload
11:18:27  that makes way more sense
11:19:09  befunge is quite hard one
11:19:13  brainfuck is too popular
11:19:20  intercal is very verbose
11:19:32  Unlambda is functonal
11:19:38  and I haven't heard about Underload
11:19:43  I think about rolling my own esolang
11:19:52  but I don't really have an idea how to do that
11:20:17  Emmental seems like a really cool language though
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11:51:03  I just realized. Not only can we no longer refer to printed phonebooks when explaining algorithms on sorted arrays, we now also can't refer to electromechanical washing machines to explain multiple entry points to a subroutine.
12:30:35  will we have difficulties to explain multiplication to the next generation because they will be buying everything pre-packaged and nothing of which you can freely choose a quantity and has a price per unit weight?
12:31:27  will we have difficulty explaining Eucliean coordinates because they haven't seen the index of a map refering to map grid squares?
12:33:02  [[BrainCrash]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66637&oldid=64733 * YamTokTpaFa * (+19) /* Features */
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14:36:34  the previous OotS strip was published over 18 days ago. please upload the next one, fungot
14:36:34  b_jonas: 1/(sqrt(2)-1) ( fnord) as modulus, 216 as fnord, fnord, fnord
14:37:46  we usually write that as sqrt(2)+1, but sure
14:46:47  soon they'll take as long to upload as they take to read
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16:31:39   Unlambda is functonal => why does it look like a bad thing?
16:34:34  BTW there is another side to “functional languages”, going from combinators and no variables (and composition) to defining equations and variables (and composition), on that way you could have reinvented https://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%B2
16:35:57  allowing definitions makes writing nontrivial code a bit less hard
16:43:41  [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66638&oldid=63723 * Arseniiv * (+176) I think in the end we should have this draft linked to from my userpage
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18:17:11  arseniiv_: hmm, that article should mention "lazy" somewhere
18:17:36  as in evaluation order
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18:23:14  or strict, as it may be, for it makes a difference
18:23:47  b_jonas: hm doesn’t it? I’ll look at it
18:25:55  and "currying" too, because without currying, you need some extra builtins for conditionals and for data storage
18:26:14  as in an if-else, cons, (), null, car, cdr
18:26:25  > Overall evalution strategy is call-by-need, unless a modification (for example, to allow full IO) has something like Haskell’s `seq` or `$!`.
18:26:27   :1:43: error: parse error on input ‘,’
18:26:31  specified!
18:26:45  oh I never learn
18:26:49  @botsnack
18:26:49  :)
18:27:49   and "currying" too => hm I did thought it’s obvious these definitions result in functions that can be partially applicated
18:29:01  [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66639&oldid=58343 * AnimaLibera * (+3) 
18:29:30  [[Falsebrain9Q+Fishload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66640&oldid=66639 * AnimaLibera * (+1) 
18:29:35  I’ll add some explanations, how better to name the section with them?
18:29:50  elaborations, I’d say
18:31:14  arseniiv: "data storage" I think, for you need currying to be able to data other than from a limited alphabet of function names on the call stack
18:32:02  `unidecode Ⅎ
18:32:05  ​[U+2132 TURNED CAPITAL F]
18:32:17  [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66641&oldid=66618 * AnimaLibera * (+28) Adding Falsebrain9Q+Fishload
18:32:55  b_jonas: I wanted one section to explain about call-by-need meaning the same as lazy
18:34:45  I keep thinking of the strict non-curried version of this language
18:36:47  it would be something akin to the original Backus article?
18:36:52  b_jonas: ^
18:37:41  where he makes the first functional language, albet somewhat a clumsy one, given that it’s the first one
18:39:30  IIRC that’s 1977, “Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? A Functional Style and Its Algebra of Programs”. Hm pretty modern times. I thought from the time Lisp was invented it should have been earlier?..
18:40:36  arseniiv: do you mean Backus's FP? because then no
18:40:50  the one I'm talking about still has named function arguments
18:43:18  https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming has a link to that one, we don't have a separate page apparently
18:44:40  but also, the language I'm thinking of not only doesn't have currying, it doesn't even have functions as first class objects either. you can only use function names if you immediately call them. mind you, you can still program Backus's FP that way.
18:44:49  well, sort of.
18:45:03  not exactly the same as Backus's FP
18:45:28  but the style you program in translates to that well, only you lose named function arguments then
18:51:13  you can also translate it to a subset of Olvashato where you don't use lambdas
18:51:57  in all these cases you have named global functions that can be mutually recursive, which is sort of the distinctive feature
18:52:23  hm maybe I shouldn’t elaborate on call-by-need there, it looks too long or too incomprehensible
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18:54:19  b_jonas: interesting, and there also is no partial application, yes?
18:56:00  I mean, I don’t think “currying” is a name for a well-defined language feature, it always confused me what it should mean, and I only see it viable as a name for the natural isomorphism from A×B→R to A→B→R
18:57:28  wait, let me check how Backus's FP worked again?
18:57:31  I got confused
18:57:37  I think it doesn't have named global functions
18:58:13  arseniiv: you can call it "partial application then, it doesn't matter too much that it's implemented by currying
18:58:14  though maybe it means that we could write λxyz.A for λx.λy.λz.A and correspondingly f x y z = … for f x = let g y = let h z = … in h in g
18:59:13  ok, Backus's FP is weirder
18:59:15  b_jonas: then I more or less understand what language you are describing
18:59:21  but it doesn't have named global functions
18:59:59  arseniiv: for the language I'm talking about, you still have a sequence of global function definitions, each one has a function name followed by named arguments on the left, and parenthisized function calls on the right
19:00:33  but on the right, each time you refer to a function, it must be called by all arguments, you can't pass around function pointers, whether partially applied or not
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19:00:40  then the distinctive feature could be described thus: no partially applied function is an expression, this would formalize what it means that functions aren’t first class
19:01:07  and you get new builtins, namely if-else, which is the only way to not strictly evaluate all arguments,
19:01:50  maybe case-of and pattern matching is better?
19:01:50  and some builtins for creating data, namely at least nil and cons as data constructors, null and car and cdr as deconstructors,
19:01:58  but ideally also some basic numeric stuff
19:02:09  arseniiv: no, that's not enough
19:02:21  arseniiv: you also can't use bare function names (without any argument applied) as an expression
19:02:58  yeah I understand, a bare name is partially applied too
19:03:16  the base of olvashato and common lisp already work like that; they also have explicit way to manipulate first-class functions, but you can't do it as easily as mentioning a function name or partially applying anything
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19:05:00  olvashato isn't quite like this even without the first-class functions, because olvashato has let and case which lets you create local bindings other than the parameters of the global function, and I don't want that
19:05:11  (also the syntax is different)
19:11:51  also, as for what I said earlier
19:12:09  "will we have difficulties to explain multiplication to the next generation because they will be buying everything pre-packaged and nothing of which you can freely choose a quantity and has a price per unit weight?" =>
19:12:13  this requires electric cars, 
19:12:40  but I think we're officially in the electric car future now, because this year's Nobel Prize is for electric cars
19:22:01  I don't think so; some people will buy and sell stuff that you will have to freely choose a quantity, even if it is rare.
19:23:41  zzo38: sure, it will exist, I'm just positing that it won't be such an everyday thing that every eleven year old in school sees it and finds multiplication of real numbers a natural and commonly used operation because of that
19:26:53  (Also, multiplication would still be used with stuff other than buying and selling stuff.)
19:26:55  when I go to the market today, I need to know a bit of cultural context to know which price tags are per kilogram and which ones are per unit, because it's hard to guess
19:28:32  I should think they ought to label if it is per kilogram or per unit. If it is prepackaged then it can be assumed as per unit if it doesn't say; if they are not pricing it per unit then they should not prepackage it.
19:28:44  most fruits and vegetables are sold by kilogram, but the ones that come with lots of leaves are sold by bunch or single root
19:29:29  zzo38: sure, but consider fruits: kohlrabi is per single root, but canteloupes and lemons and cabbage are per kilogram
19:29:53  lemons and canteloupes and kohlrabi have a strong rind so they don't need pre-packaging
19:30:07  so they aren't packaged, yet you could sell them either way
19:30:21  Yes, that is OK, but they should label them as "per unit" or "per package". I did not say that per unit stuff should be prepackaged; only that prepackaged stuff should be priced per unit.
19:31:12  s/per package/per kilogram/
19:31:24  lemons of linear logistics
19:31:42  there are even roots that are sold per bunch, which could count as pre-packaged, but it's sometimes not obvious to notice the strings that tie a few roots into bunches
19:32:00  this happens with carrots and radishes
19:32:31  zzo38: yes, prepackaged stuff is sold by unit except in very rare cases that are clearly labeled
19:32:55  there are two sorts of exceptions:
19:33:24  one is for pre-packaged cheese and the like that is sold by weight and the weight is measured in advance when packaging and written on a printed label and encoded in the bar code
19:34:00  the other is pre-packaged stuff sold in twos or threes, where you can still buy in single units but it becomes more expensive, and you can buy two or three of different kinds mixed and matched of the same price group
19:34:01  Yes; in that case, you would print the price and weight on the label of the individual package.
19:34:15  So the price is both per unit and per weight.
19:34:16  there's no problem with packaged stuff
19:34:26  the difficulty is more with the non-packaged stuff
19:34:50  So it is OK that it is like that, since the label mentions the price.
19:35:12  With non-packaged stuff the label still should make it clear about the price.
19:35:35  (If they don't specify, then, I think, it isn't very good.)
19:39:21  admittedly many of the vendors do specify
19:49:57  Did they make the AD year numbering the way that it is for reasons having to do with leap years since it is not precise according to when Jesus is born?
19:59:41  [[]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66642&oldid=63105 * Arseniiv * (+2582) elaborations for somebody
20:00:56  I feel warm
20:17:49  thanks
20:27:41  I have implemented turned F myself but I don’t remember in what language and where the project is, and also I’m pretty certain its code shouldn’t see the daylight. I probably will someday just write it from scratch in Python like with Punctree. I don’t like I write Python in a usual text editor without IDE hints but this language is pretty popular and you can easily run single files without any special manoeurs so that drives my hand
20:27:51  or forces, or delays
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20:29:02  I have made a chess engine in Malbolge
20:29:13  in theory it's decent
20:29:17  but it has two drawbacks
20:29:29  a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory
20:29:35  whoa
20:29:42  b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
20:29:49  oh
20:29:53  but I'm certainly sure it works
20:30:09  (^cont.) and of course I have implemented something like YE…A, even with some optimizations for functions constructed with simple recursion operator, in Ceylon but I didn’t make that human-readable and it wasn’t YE…A strictly speaking, but an interpreter for a DSL
20:30:11  how can you be sure? if it's so slow, how do you debug it?
20:30:20  the same generator that made this program
20:30:25  has been tested to 100% coverage
20:30:33  the chess engine is just higher scale of the same thing
20:30:38  kspalaiologos: lol :D
20:30:40  so it has to work, eventually
20:30:48  for anyone interested
20:30:49  https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess
20:30:58  the 7z file unzips to 113 megabytes of malbolge
20:31:07  32 gigabytes is solvable these days
20:31:18  I'm equipped with just eight
20:31:35  anyone willing to borrow 24G and a quantum computer?
20:31:55  a quantum computer? what for?
20:32:19  it would hopefully speed up the process
20:32:37  what... chess? how?
20:32:40  the quantum computer is able to solve "puzzles" that conventional computers aren't able to
20:32:56  puzzles maybe, but I don't think it helps for chess
20:32:57  for example, it can break RSA encryption quite eaisly from what I've heard
20:33:04  that sure
20:33:17  isn't malbolge just a fancy encryption?
20:33:42  I've spent my entire day on writing a proof of concept in C, then translating it to assembly, and then stepping down to something 4004-like to finally produce the output
20:33:58  it was a quite fun process
20:34:08  nonetheless
20:34:21  kspalaiologos: hm but your code should use its “features”, like a program can’t just start using SSE or what there is these times, without the programmer writing those instructions beforehand
20:34:43  sure
20:34:48  the interpreter can be tweaked
20:34:53  so it runs smoother on quantum computers
20:35:01  I have made once a SSE brainfuck interpreter, nothing is scary now
20:35:10  :D
20:35:16  imagine a tape, but of type __m64
20:36:16  or __m512i
20:36:36  optimizing malbolge is quite hard process tho
20:36:45  to do it correctly you'd have to know the assembler structure
20:36:59  but as you can reverse it, is there any sense in simplifying the assembly down to malbolge?
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20:47:55  Trick NSA to make the computation for you, by using encryption.
20:50:45  b_jonas: Did you see the Magic: the Gathering card I mentioned and that Sgeo__ wrote a comment?
20:56:06  zzo38: no, what card?
20:56:10  does it have "Frore" in its name
20:56:28  No
20:56:50  Stone of Lizard Men
20:57:03  Sgeo__: Yes.
20:57:06  Stone of Lizard Men {2} Artifact ;; {X}, {T}: You may put a Lizard or Viashino card with converted mana cost less than X from your hand into the battlefield. If you do, add one mana of any color.
21:01:09  hmm, there are fewer lizards now, because cards like Imperiosaur have been patched to Dinosaurs
21:02:04  Yes, but there still are some, including cards with changeling
21:02:14  sure
21:02:43  (And you can also use Artificial Evolution to alter which creature types this can be used with.)
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22:08:22  Do you know the "backward" variant of scope (an Italian card game)? Someone showed me that variant, but I don't know if anyone else has written about it.
22:14:29  b_jonas, any ideas about what fun can be had by effectively summoning a creature at mana ability speed?
22:17:06  Of course, then you can do it during a mana step, I suppose, which might sometimes allow you to play triggered abilities in a different order.
22:26:02  (There are also ways to play replacement effects during a mana step, even with only Vintage-legal cards. See http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.4 for one example.)
22:42:47  (Well, that one doesn't have a replacement effect during the mana step, but with other cards it can be easy to see that it can still be done.)
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23:32:31  Now I added a "Frequently Asked Questions" section in story I wrote (from the GURPS game), so, if you have a question, then I can add it, please.
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2019-10-13:

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00:57:12  [[Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66643&oldid=66634 * JonoCode9374 * (+25) /* Swap the words good and bad */
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01:41:25  `addquote  I have made a chess engine in Malbolge   in theory it's decent   but it has two drawbacks   a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory   b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
01:41:27  1336)  I have made a chess engine in Malbolge   in theory it's decent   but it has two drawbacks   a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory   b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it
02:00:41  @message kspalaiologos care to share this mythical chess engine?
02:00:41  Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
02:00:51  @tell kspalaiologos care to share this mythical chess engine?
02:00:51  Consider it noted.
02:10:59  imode: it was linked in the logs
02:11:32  I read on Wikipedia about digital television captions, and they mention many things I have not seen in other TV sets
02:11:43   https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess
02:53:10  [[Cupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66644&oldid=58294 * IFcoltransG * (+29) Added Turing Complete tag
02:53:49  [[Cupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66645&oldid=66644 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed capitalisation on Turing complete category
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05:09:42  I have been writing how I thought should be designed a television set. The digital caption setting menu includes service number 1-63, user override on/off, tag mask, enable flashing, maximum number of windows, font priority (user or broadcast), special effects on/off, auto switching services.
05:12:33  The analog caption setting menu includes service selection (CC1-CC4 and TEXT1-TEXT4), user override on/off, allow/disallow white background, minimum roll-up, enable flashing, enable buffering, alarm on/off, character set (EIA-608 or ASCII).
05:16:08  Common caption setting menu can include: caption on mute, caption relative to either the picture or the screen, style submenu, status menu (can be used for debugging), caption recording. And then, there is also the caption scrollback feature, to review earlier captions. Do you think it is good enough?
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08:33:07  oh nice. Zach from SMBC advertises his book on http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=2033
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08:36:01  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * YouTuringCompleteMe *  New user account
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08:47:22  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66646&oldid=66607 * YouTuringCompleteMe * (+275) /* Introductions */
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09:41:22  [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66647&oldid=38929 * A * (+124) /* Sample Program */
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10:12:52  Hmm, somehow the styles of http://www.yihcomic.com/ and http://sssscomic.com/ are quite similar.
10:16:57  Today I tried to actually figure out the details of CDCL and other tricks a bit more.
10:18:31  I feel like there are some basic things I'm confused about. I should probably implement the parts I understand to see if I become unconfused.
10:19:10  Here's one thing that's not even related to CDCL:
10:20:00  When you need to decide on a variable and you add a literal p to your assumptions, what do you do?
10:20:43  In theory you want to "delete" every clause that contains p and every literal ¬p from all the other clauses.
10:21:00  well you don't
10:21:10  The two-watched-literal trick lets you only worry about some clauses that contain ¬p, hopefully a small subset.
10:21:26  Do you need to worry about clauses that contain p at all or do you just ignore them?
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10:22:58  when processiong a clause you don't put it on another watched literal list if its next literal is already true, so this is part of the watched literal logic.
10:23:59  But then when you backtrack you might add it to a watched literal list?
10:24:29  but you don't touch the watched literal lists when you backtrack?
10:24:33  or backjump
10:25:15  Right, that's what I thought. But then I don't understand your previous sentence.
10:25:36  I believe you can just keep the clause on the list that you're processing
10:26:12  uhm actually
10:26:18  So a large number of clauses is just irrelevant for you because you only ever find clauses through watch lists.
10:26:20  sorry, I'm confused
10:29:06  But I think I got it right nevertheless. So... you go through the watch list of a literal l. If you encounter a clause that is already true in the current partial assignment (while looking for another literal that's currently unassigned), then you can keep the clause on the watch list for l, because whatever made the clause true is earlier on the trail than l.
10:29:22  (well, the trail has a negated l)
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10:30:29  Meaning once the clause evaluation becomes unknown again, l will not be assigned, reestablishing the watched literal invariant (any clause with unknown truth value is on two watched literal lists)
10:31:05  OK, so the only way a bunch satisfied clauses hurt you is that a watch list might contain them and you might need to sift through them?
10:31:16  yes
10:31:42  And you might e.g. move them to the end of a watch list and possibly be able to stop looking through a watch list early.
10:31:46  this is a kind of laziness
10:31:49  Though I'm not sure a thing like that would actually work.
10:32:07  (but a good kind because many clauses that become true will never be touched at all)
10:32:47  Hmm, but the ones that become true and are watched will just be inspected over and over because the watched literal will never move, unless you do something extra?
10:33:37  Hmm, maybe it's clever to move them to the literal that is true instead.
10:33:52  Oh, that makes sense.
10:34:07  (provided the clause is not on that watch list already)
10:34:17  You can even locate the true literal that's furthest away in the stack, so hopefully you don't see it for a long time.
10:34:34  what... are you writing SAT solvers?
10:34:42  Er, the last thing I said doesn't make sense.
10:35:17  b_jonas: I've been resisting the temptation for a long time. I think I can maintain this state :) Not sure about shachaf.
10:36:20  Some of my questions are about the actual typical operations/memory layout/etc. used by reasonable SAT solvers.
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10:37:04  Others are about clause learning, which seems like one of the most complicated parts of many modern solvers.
10:37:04  b_jonas: But I know enough about the basics (DPLL, CDCL, a bit about heuristics) to be harmful.
10:37:58  I know a bit more about the verification side. (RUP, DRUP, RAT, DRAT)
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10:39:30  Oh, UNSAT verification?
10:39:41  I'd like to know about how that works.
10:41:30  I suspect understanding UNSAT certificates and understanding CDCL are pretty related?
10:41:48  Actually, no.
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10:42:21  Oh, that's interesting.
10:43:21  At least on a high level, certification works by maintaining a set of clauses (initially those of the problem) and adding and removing clauses with inferences that maintain satisficability. The last step derives the empty clause.
10:44:56  The inference relies heavily on unit propagation though, so for efficiency, you end up with watched literals again.
10:46:39  Sure, atched literals is a great trick.
10:46:57  I should understand regular SAT solving first.
10:48:04  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333612067_Efficient_Verified_UNSAT_Certificate_Checking should be a good starting point (including references for DRAT and DRUP).
10:49:23  shachaf: you should just wait for Knuth to write that part of volume 4. 
10:49:40  The idea for RUP is that every backjump clause can be derived by "reverse unit propagation" -- assert the negation of the literals of the derived clause, and do unit propagation; if that results in a conflict, then the clause can be added without affecting satisfiability. So all a SAT solver has to do to produce a certificate is to record the backjump clauses which it's computing anyway.
10:49:48  (and potentially learning)
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10:50:38  DRUP adds deletion of clauses (for efficiency). RAT is a bit more complicated and motivated by simplification of clause sets rather than DPLL itself.
10:53:04  b_jonas: Fascicle 6? I have a copy right here.
10:53:34  I have technically written a SAT solver once, but it's a rather trivially stupid one, it only works on very simple expressions
10:53:48  It doesn't talk about many of the things I want, though, I think.
10:53:53  I've only read part of it so far.
10:54:02  shachaf: so does it not help about "typical operations/memory layout/etc."? I'd expect Knuth to talk about those
10:54:30  It certainly talks about those, for the algorithms it describes.
10:56:37  hmm, https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/news.html has multiple news that I haven't seen 
10:57:41  I'll look at it some more after these papers.
10:58:46  pity one of the links is already broken
11:02:51  OK, it looks like the part of fascicle 6 two pages after where I left my bookmark in it a while ago is on the same topics I was reading papers on today.
11:02:56  I guess I'll take a closer look.
11:05:47  I see he gets up to RUP.
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11:16:39 * int-e wonders how close the September 2015 pre-fascicle is to the printed fascicle...
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11:30:15  shachaf: int-e: While I've been just idling here for years, I just noticed discussion about SAT solving... I've written a CDCL SAT solver and UNSAT certificate checker https://github.com/jix/varisat (not using DRAT though, I'm using a different proof format that records unit propagations during solving and thus can be checked much faster)... feel free to ask me any questions about SAT solving :)
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11:30:57  idling... does that mean we should `welcome you?
11:31:17  also, nice
11:31:31  that just means I was quite active here... I don't know 10, 15 years ago or so and never parted :)
11:31:57  yeah, this channel has a long history. 
11:32:22  ``` q jix # the quote file doesn't know that you were active... not under this name at least
11:32:23  No output.
11:32:33  https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jannis_Harder << that's me
11:33:18  jix: It's funny that you mention recording unit propagations... because the GRAT format does that as well, making for a three stage verification pipeline: simplifier+SAT-solver => DRAT => GRAT (fewer clauses, more information) => verifier.
11:33:38  int-e: yeah I skip the DRAT => GRAT part which is as expensive as solving in the first place
11:33:58  (This is Lammich's pipeline... Heule et al. have a slightly different intermediate format ... I forgot the name.)
11:33:58  what I do is solving -> custom format -> LRAT (which is inspired by GRAT)
11:34:43  total time is cut roughly in half, but my solver isn't as good as others on many problems, so it's not that practical yet
11:35:04  jix: It's funny though that the overhead of storing and reading additional information like that pays off. (Ah, LRAT. I think that was it. If so, it's a concurrent development to GRAT.)
11:35:43  I experimented with emitting LRAT directly, but the code to keep track of clause ids became very complicated and introduced memory overhead
11:36:12  so my next attempt just hashes clauses and resolves hash conflicts during conversion
11:37:12  int-e: ah maybe it was inspired by a predecessor of GRAT?
11:37:36  Hrm, let me check.
11:39:34  there also is a newer DRAT proof checker, https://github.com/krobelus/rate that can emit LRAT and GRAT that is supposedly faster than drat-trim, but I haven't really benchmarked it yet 
11:40:02  So... There's DRUP and DRAT as the foundation. There's a format called GRIT that records unit propagation steps. This is a precursor to both LRAT and GRAT, which do the same thing for RAT steps as well.
11:40:35  ah, yeah, so I was thinking of GRIT when I read GRAT
11:41:41  (LRAT and GRAT were developed independently for certified DRAT checking, both published at CADE 2017; LRAT is Cruz-Filipe, Heule, Hunt, Kaufmann, Schneider-Kamp; GRAT is Lammich)
11:44:02  "amost as fast as gratgen" - yeah I thought that gratgen looked very good, performance wise.
11:47:55  in any case I think emitting an LRAT/GRAT like proof directly from the solver is quite a bit faster than conversion from DRAT, the biggest downside is that it is quite a bit larger than a DRAT proof, but if you're not interested in storing the proof you could run the verifying concurrently to avoid that
11:49:56  I might need to implement that for a competitive solver, though, if I want to convince people of that
11:52:06  jix: Hmm, how well does the unsatisfiable core computation work though?
11:52:52  int-e: haven't checked that yet, it's possible, but it'll probably generate larger cores because there is no core-first propagation or anything like that
11:53:35  if you use iterative solving to minimize the unsat core (like Heule did for the chromatic number of the plane problem), you can iterate faster, so it'd be interesting to compare it in that setting
11:54:23  jix: Yeah I'm basically asking a research question... the answer can't be determined without trying, I think. I certainly don't have the intuition for it.
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12:25:58   Chat 40+   ->  https://soo.gd/room40plus
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14:20:41  [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66648&oldid=66647 * A * (+106) /* Implementation */
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14:29:22  When was the first emoji used in #esoteric? 🤔
14:31:51  tswett[m]: probably before 2003
14:35:52  When did emoji become "a thing," anyway? I seem to remember it was relatively recently that they were implemented on iOS and Android and subsequently (pretty much immediately) became popular in the US.
14:36:05  "Relatively recently" as in within the past 5 years.
14:43:12  'Originating on Japanese mobile phones in 1997, emoji became increasingly popular worldwide in the 2010s after being added to several mobile operating systems.'
14:43:19  <3 wikipedia.
14:44:05  'The first ASCII emoticons, :-) and :-(, were written by Scott Fahlman in 1982, but emoticons actually originated on the PLATO IV computer system in 1972.' (ditto)
14:45:31  Nyope. Looks like iOS got support for emoji in 2011, much longer ago than I thought.
14:48:00  Unicode version 6.0, 2010, added those to Unicode.
14:48:02  tswett[m]: when did it get support for animated emoji?
14:52:08  soon we'll have animated emoji with sound and smell
14:52:43  and modifiers for whether the man blowing a raspberry emoji or the crying face emoji are supposed to be rendered with sound on or muted
14:53:32  and a singing voice modifier that changes the default tenor voice to a bass
15:02:15  Pretty sure those, well, aren't really emoji.
15:02:29  not yet
15:02:31  They're pictures being sent, not Unicode strings
15:02:45  (animoted emoji, I mean)
15:05:39  I remember animated fonts on VGA...
15:11:00  [[User talk:Palaiologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66649 * Palaiologos * (+0) Created blank page
15:37:47  int-e: EGA was the first to support those, wasn't it?
15:38:33  tswett[m]: I'd have to check. I've never had an EGA myself.
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15:43:35  tswett[m]: I still don't know, but at least it's very plausible that EGA supported this trick :)
15:45:11  darn it! the windows were open so the beeping sounded like it was coming from the outside. it took me two minutes to realize that it was my own oven alarm
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15:55:28  . o O ( who doesn't like charred pizza )
15:58:20  charred pizza is profanation of pizza
15:58:38  once in my life I've been to Venice, there was a guy selling pizza slices
15:58:41  one slice was arm-length
15:59:06  the slice overall was very moist with a lot of olive oil
16:00:05  luckily it's not pizza
16:00:14  and not charred 
16:01:32  [ 16*12*0.0254
16:01:33  b_jonas: 4.8768
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16:12:59  int-e: Well, EGA definitely supported (the appearance of) animated fonts.
16:13:07  Hecc, I should get an EGA.
16:13:40  Hook it up to my IBM PC.
16:13:45  But first I'll have to get an IBM PC.
16:14:03  One with an 8080 processor, I don't want none of this protected mode nonsense.
16:23:07  8080's are pretty cheap, you could just build one.
16:25:01  tswett[m]: don't you at least want a proper 16 bit data bus though?
16:25:37 -!- clog has joined.
16:25:39  I mean, you already have 16 bit registers.
16:25:55  Hmmmm, perhaps.
16:39:29  tswett[m]: https://monotech.fwscart.com/NuXT_MicroATX_Turbo_XT_955MHz_832K_RAM_XTCF_SVGA_Floppy_Serial/p6083514_19777986.aspx ?
16:39:53  (not the literally ideal solution for all use cases of this sort of thing mind, but it is a very pleasant product)
16:40:50  pikhq: Ooh, sweet!
16:41:29  Right?
16:41:59  I imagine stock is never gonna be _super_ common, cause it's very much a cottage-industry thing _and_ some of the components are new-old-stock, but
16:46:32  On the other hand, while trickier to get _most_ of what makes that nice can be cobbled together with other off-the-shelf things.
16:47:19  (just less all-in-one)
17:01:59   oh I see. the "955MHz" in the url was confusing. it's "9.55 MHz" rather than "955 MHz".
17:12:53  That's fast enough to run a stock exchange. :D
17:17:54  Damn it, now I'm all thinking about writing stock exchange software for an online game.
17:18:13  Psst, I'm writing an online game. Currently, you can log into the game, and see how much of various commodities everyone has.
17:18:42  Currently it is not possible to gain more commodities, or to do anything with the commodities you've got.
17:19:24  nothing is fast enough to run a stock exchange. those people are crazy, they put computers in the middle of the Atlantic just so they can speculate a few milliseconds earlier when their choice depends on information from both European and American stock exchanges.
17:19:36  it's ridiculous
17:21:34  Yeah, high-frequency trading is a weird thing.
17:21:59  I mean, I don't work in financial areas, and admittedly the areas where I work are crazy in other ways, 
17:25:02  Theoretically, traders provide a valuable service.
17:25:37  I want to be able to buy and sell goods, services and capital at prices that reflect their fair market value.
17:26:14  right, they provide the grease that reduces the friction of the market 
17:26:25  So if someone puts effort into providing that for me, they deserve a bit of return for their effort.
17:26:42  they do get their return in the form of money
17:27:01  Right
17:27:11  `? tinfoil hat
17:27:12  tinfoil hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:27:47  But there's presumably a point where it stops being "they get money in exchange for providing a valuable service" and starts being "they get money for being better at poker than everyone else."
17:29:04  I'm not sure that's separable. they provide the valuable service by being good at poker.
17:30:28  Well, in actual poker, the good poker players aren't really providing a valuable service to the bad poker players.
17:31:01  Just like if I go into a casino and count cards, the casino pays me money, but it's not because I'm providing a valuable service to the casino.
17:31:40  Golly. Instead of pointless gambling, people should be able to bet on real things, and thus provide a valuable service to the world.
17:32:31  as in on the stock market?
17:33:16  Well, stock betting is already mostly legal, and it's useful but it's not the only useful market.
17:33:50  I think mostly arbitrary prediction markets should be generally legal in the US, except one special one.
17:34:05  or they pretend it's mostly legal, because if we could find out what specific illegal thing they do, the authorities would punish them
17:34:23  What do you mean?
17:34:50  how about the intermediate stuff, betting on sports?
17:35:08  Sports betting seems pretty useless to me, but probably a bit better than casinos.
17:36:16  sports betting seems pretty popular here, among people who I think don't have any comparative advantage in the bets, so it's just a game of chance, paying for the thrill or something
17:36:24  I don't understand how it's so popular
17:36:44  It's kind of odd which things are legal to bet on in the US.
17:37:09  For example you can bet on the weather.
17:37:47  what things aren't legal to bet on?
17:39:15  Arbitrary events.
17:39:26  the tricky part of the legal rules (IANAL) is not just what you can bet on, but how you pay income tax after them. it's pretty clear that if you win all your bets, then all that you gain on them is your income.
17:40:21  but if you win one bet and lose another bet, then is it a transaction as a whole and your income is the difference, or is the winning bet your income and the losing bets your spending so your income is what you win on the former?
17:40:25  Except for predictit.org and apparently something in Iowa, which are still not legal but allowed to run anyway?
17:40:45  there are some rules on that, but of course there are so many, often illegal, new forms of betting, that they can't cover it all
17:40:48  I guess the UK is more permitting than the US wrt betting on arbitrary events, then
17:40:53  and it's even harder to enforce it
17:40:59  b_jonas: The answers to these questions are well-established for other trading, so it doesn't seem like a problem.
17:41:18  I mean, if you're betting secret and illegally it's hard to enforce, but the law is reasonably clear.
17:41:36  Yes, the UK is more permitting.
17:41:47  Except in the UK you have to use inscrutable words like "back" and "lay".
17:41:57  right. and since games of chance are so severely regulated here, almost everyone who earns a signifiacnt amount do it illegally
17:42:04  Once in a while I figure out what they mean but the next time I want to look at a market I've forgotten again.
17:42:52  ah, jargon
17:43:14  Usually the UK brokers let you bet on whether you think arsons will torch the Gävle straw goat or not
17:43:23  (speaking of being able to bet on arbitrary events)
17:44:15  FaeFly: they always do, the bet is only about when
17:44:27  hehe
17:44:42  Anyway my point is just that actual markets are useful for the world, whereas casinos are not.
17:44:52  oh right, as for goats
17:44:54  (nah, there's been years when it hasn't been, but the majority of the time it seems to be)
17:45:17  So if people are going to get the gambling thrill anyway, better for them to lose money on actual markets, to incentivize counterparties to do research or something.
17:45:17  shachaf: I thought running a casino is great for making money?
17:45:37  Yes, casinos are useful for the owners and not anyone else.
17:45:59  Markets are useful for everyone.
17:46:05  hah
17:46:10  you know how Gävle has goats, and Budapest used to have these painted cows at one point? on my vacation, I found that Dortmund had painted _winged_ _rhinoceroses_.
17:46:19  :D
17:46:31  shachaf: grocery markets, maybe
17:46:41  Grocery futures! Good idea.
17:47:01  Exotic grocery futures options derivatives.
17:47:06  Been done for cocoa...
17:47:18  Oh, another thing that's illegal in the US is onions future.
17:47:32  But that's an explicit exception for onion, most kinds of futures are legal.
17:47:51  for onions
17:48:05  Well you learned the right lesson from the Tulip crisis.
17:48:17  (Those are a kind of onion, right?)
17:48:17  int-e: nah, they don't really work. the agriculture guys figured out that they don't have to pay for insurance, they just tell the government every year that this year has been the worst weather ever since their life and there's no way they could have been prepared for it and the government has got to pay them subsidy to help them
17:48:28  you can't compete with that
17:48:32  Yeah, ban bulb speculation!
17:49:31  I'd like onion futures to be legal. Maybe I can write my congresshumans.
17:50:45  shachaf: is this like those rules that get compiled to stupid law compilations on the internet, like laws about not being allowed to park an elephant close to a school or something?
17:51:10  It's this law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Futures_Act
17:52:17  It was later amended to ban box office receipts futures (bets on how much money a movie will make).
17:52:48  I think the law is just bad. As far as I know onion farmers agree nowadays.
17:53:44  shachaf: It's certainly a ridiculous piece of legislation. I'm all for such a ban but limiting it to onions is ridiculous and short-sighted.
17:53:55  A ticking time bomb.
17:54:04  (No, I'm not a big believer in capitalism. Why do you ask?)
17:54:48  Yes, I know that. That's why I'm taking the contrarian view point, obviously.
17:54:49  (More to the point I believe that free markets have optimize the wrong objective function.)
17:55:01  s/have//
17:55:08  Sure, I agree on that.
17:55:22  Well, I don't know what right and wrong objective functions you have in mind.
17:55:38  But I also don't know what's better. It's easy to name shortcomings in markets.
17:56:01  [[Photon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66650&oldid=63463 * Sugarfi * (+0) 
17:59:05  shachaf: that looks crazy, and I think it's an example of exactly what I said above, that agriculture people can put on a great innocent small child face with the puppy eyes and tell the congress that they're being unfairly exploited by the evil stock trade people, and then the congress does anything they ask for
17:59:46  and if they don't, then the agriculture people pour milk and throw watermelons at them, and the politicians get afraid that their beautifully tailored suits will get spoiled, and so they give in
17:59:54  I don't have a feasible, stable solution either. (For example, socialism is a great idea, but putting it into practice is really hard... you're likely to end up with corruption everywhere, and quite possibly an unmotivated workforce.)
17:59:56  I mean, they *were* unfairly exploited by futures traders.
18:01:01  In practice, timely regulation is probably the best to hope for.
18:01:16  The free market is great as long as the market value of every person's labor exceeds the market value of the goods and services necessary for that person's well-being.
18:01:23  int-e: OK, sure, it sounds like we agree on that.
18:01:43  A big point of the whole market thing is that incentives line up well.
18:01:59  Regulation is also the key to internalizing external costs, especially from the future.
18:02:02  And you certainly want regulation rather than "free markets" which can easily be pathological.
18:02:17  Right, and you want to internalize externalities.
18:02:50  Basically, since we don't know anything better than the free market model that is also stable in the medium and perhaps even long term, we have to resort to tweaking the cost function.
18:04:09  Of course it's all embedded in a prisoner's dilemma between countries because for most things we have a global market.
18:06:03  (The background problem I'm considering is limiting climate change. It's one of the truly big challenges where in theory, it should be in everybody's interest to work really hard towards a solution, including accepting lowered standards of living for the few for the benefit of the many and future generations. In practice... I don't see any of that happening fast enough to matter.)
18:07:16  Cornering markets, as nasty as that is... seems minor in comparison.
18:08:28  Limiting climate change is good but a particular government can add regulation for externalities however market-oriented it is.
18:08:39  And the inter-government issues are no different.
18:14:35  this channel is weird. SAT solvers in the morning, free market in the evening
18:15:26  we've also seen ootsology, meditation, and actual spam
18:15:57  int-e: Anyway, I don't think we disagree on any of the facts, so I think it's odd that you end up thinking futures should be illegal and I don't.
18:17:23  `8-ball should futures be illegal?
18:17:24  Better not tell you now.
18:17:44  fungot, what restrictions do you recommend to put on the free market?
18:17:44  b_jonas: designing an os -and- playing tabletop.... i'm kinda thinking specifically of http and other stateless protocols... and dynamic ip addresses. but i can't
18:17:54  um
18:18:44  shachaf: If you put it like that I'm not sure about whether they should be illegal. I don't think they are useful, and I dislike some of the consequences (cornering markets is most attractive in the presence of futures, isn't it...)
18:19:39  Hmm, I think futures are useful for reducing uncertainty and transferring risk from people who have it to people who want it.
18:20:15  that's the trouble, isn't it
18:20:32  hedging risks is great, speculation is bad, and there's no discernable differencw
18:20:35  e
18:21:03  Why is speculation bad?
18:21:21  (Speculation can also be done without futures, of course.)
18:21:24  it's bad when combined with bankruptcy
18:21:47  Because then you're in an ugly external cost scenario.
18:22:07 * int-e shrugs.
18:22:31  oh at first I thought about futures like promises
18:22:51  Yes. I promise to buy ... shares at price ... in the future.
18:22:52  :P
18:22:52  That's arguable, but often it's addressed anyway.
18:22:55  now I see this is economical stuff I don’t know anything about
18:23:15  I think speculation clearly has a useful function too.
18:23:41  and that's still greasing the market?
18:23:45  though I don’t really distingwish promises and futures too, I hadn’t read anything comprehensive to date about them all
18:23:47  If I buy wheat when it's cheap (low demand) and sell it when it's expensive (high demand), I've transferred wheat from people who don't need it to people who do.
18:24:10  right, greasing the market, even though wheat in particular isn't greasy
18:24:20  I get paid for it because the people who need it are willing to pay because it's so useful to them.
18:24:27  That seems cleary useful.
18:24:58  shachaf: presumably you've also paid for storage. except... nowadays... that's not so clear at all
18:25:10  . o O ( my market is all floury on the floor, who did it )
18:25:24  Nowadays you might've paid someone else for storage, sure.
18:26:31  presumably if the grain travels time then someone payed for its storage somehow
18:26:39  because no free launch
18:26:50  Right.
18:27:21  or maybe there is no grain
18:28:18  you mean it got to the future the old style way, by having planted seeds a few months before you need it, and then harvesting at the right time, so it doesn't need to be stored??
18:28:33  it's futures -> short-selling -> cornering markets -> disaster. :P
18:29:18  BTW I watched those slides on GA and I wonder how can it be explained transparently than in PGA, you represent points by (n−1)-vectors, lines by (n−2)-vectors and so on and hyperplanes by 1-vectors, all in reverse to the way they’re represented in usual projective space context
18:29:44  I feel like you're focusing on a few extremely bad failure cases -- which are generally illegal anyway -- and not on the constant benefits everyone gets.
18:30:08  it's not a _disaster_, it's just another stupid zillion dollars lots of government subsidies, because the agriculture sector knows that puppy eyes are cheaper than taking any risk or behaving like they're part of a world economy where maybe it's not worth for them to grow watermelons at all because shipping them all the way from brazil is cheaper
18:30:21  shachaf: because "everyone" is concentrated in the top 1%.
18:30:40  I don't think that's true.
18:31:08  I think it's born out by the capital distribution and its changed distribution over time.
18:31:17  Wheat farmers get the benefits of wheat futures, because they can reliably know what prices they'll sell their wheat at before it's grown, so they can plan better.
18:31:52  (^cont.) (representing them the usual way gives something paranormal but why the reverse works is not automatically clear)
18:32:06  but wouldn't they be better off if they had sufficient money floating to hedge those risks themselves...
18:32:09  Sure, I think there are clearly problems causing wealth to be concentrated among a small number of people to a ridiculous degree. But I don't think derivatives are the cause.
18:32:16  Why?
18:32:34  I buy insurance rather than hedging tail risks myself.
18:33:13  I think in some cases insurance makes sense and in some cases it's ridiculous, but the concept surely makes sense.
18:33:39  shachaf: right, that's more than half the point of insurance
18:33:52  (Ridiculous: US health insurance.)
18:33:54  So you should cover normal fluctuations using your own capital and tail risks by a proper insurance?
18:34:11  shachaf: oh yeah, that one is weird
18:34:13  I don't see where you need futures in this picture.
18:34:42  You should be able to transfer whatever risks you want to people who want to buy them.
18:35:09  or hmm
18:36:26  No one is forcing wheat farmers to use futures. If they want to hedge tail risks only they can do that too (and people also trade wheat options, but I imagined you'd have even more of an objection to those).
18:36:35  well, there's also cases when the government mandates you to buy insurance, most importantly (a) when you're driving motor vehilcles, you must buy insurance to pay to the people you kill by accident, and (b) if you run a travel agency, you must buy insurance to transport the travelers back home
18:37:09  `? trigak
18:37:10  trigak? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:37:54  `? serini
18:37:56  serini? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:38:08  what look, trigak and serini look just the same according to the wisdome
20:09:40 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:14:10  I often hear backjumping described as a big improvement, but is it actually that important?
20:14:43  With your learned clause, even if you didn't backjump but only went up one level, the new clause would give you a conflict via unit propagation anyway, right? So you wouldn't end up making any new decisions.
20:40:30  b_jonas: https://twitter.com/ioccc/status/1183476350847336453
20:41:19  ooh, this will be interesting
20:41:27  shachaf: ioccc? let me see
20:42:02  shachaf: The point of backjumping is that you undo decisions that were made after a point where the newly learned clause could be used for unit propagation.
20:42:41  shachaf: It's not an unconditional win, but heuristically you want to do as much unit propagation as possible before making a decision.
20:42:48  b_jonas: It's only a pre-update.
20:44:09  shachaf: You can think of it as a partial restart, maybe?
20:44:25  majority opposition win in Bp
20:45:13  int-e: I mean, clearly backjumping is good, but if you didn't do it, unit propagation alone (and no decisions) would unwind you to the same point. Right?
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20:45:44  shachaf: well, sooner or later...
20:46:17  shachaf: actually, no, it's incomparable
20:46:35  shachaf: I know it's not the final results yet, but it won't change significantly at this point
20:46:48  shachaf: if ordinary backtracking returns to that point, the negated literal corresponding to that decision will end up on the trail, then the backjump literal.
20:47:41  shachaf: I'm pretty sure this is one of those ideas that are completely unclear in theory but work out well in practice.
20:48:04  Aka a heuristic ;)
20:49:23  shachaf: yes, that's probably not worth an ioccclist trigger
20:49:26  `? ioccclist
20:49:27  ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
20:49:39  shachaf: oh what do you mean by "unwind"... only backtracking or backjumping really unwinds anything; everything else expands the trail.
20:49:40  it doesn't even appear on the news page
20:52:01  hey SDR nerds, can anyone identify this encoding scheme?
20:52:09  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/o3noKYIX/Screenshot%202019-10-13%2014.51.44.png
20:52:13  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/G4qGBD9F/Screenshot%202019-10-13%2014.50.47.png
20:52:53  it's not manchester... the thing i noticed is each high is only ever 1 symbol length but the low intervals are either 1 or 2
20:53:36  so a transmission is variable length depending on how many 0s or 1s there are?
20:54:00  j4cbo: that could happen, there's at least one encoding scheme that is variable length like that
20:54:16  of course there could be a layer over it that changes what comes out as zeroes and ones
20:54:24  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qoPjGUGh/Screenshot%202019-10-13%2014.53.51.png
20:54:39  j4cbo: but isn't it also possible that you have too few samples and sometimes the high can be 2 long too?
20:54:59  that is possible
20:55:18  i'm trying to reverse-engineer my cheap-ass wirelessly controlled christmas lights 
20:55:53  i have a remote control dongle with three buttons (toggle power, change pattern, and 'sync' which restarts the current pattern) so... those are the only three samples i'm gonna get :P 
20:55:56  see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Wire which is variable length like that
20:56:05  but with different timing
20:56:12  then it's OOK over 433mhz
20:56:28  i'm kind of hoping the receive device supports discrete on and off commands
20:56:30  do you always get the same sample from the same button?
20:57:07  yep
20:57:14  well that's promising
20:57:23  it just plays over and over again while the button is held down
20:57:45  send it lots of random nonsense quickly and hope that does something?
20:58:01  Could you implement on/off by the power connection instead if needed?
20:58:43  totally, but that requires extra hardware :P 
20:58:55  j4cbo: these only have, like, 17 bits of info at most, so try all 2**17 combinations
20:59:12  some of them will probably be ignored
20:59:48  yeah, i need to rig up some code to send those words out from my own hardware next
21:00:08  are these sent by radio or by infrared?
21:00:18  radio, 433mhz OOK
21:01:23  hmm, that might be harder
21:02:13  i have a spare rileylink
21:11:43  int-e: I think I'm confusil about something but I don't want to type it on my phone so I'll try to say more later.
21:12:09  By unwinding I mean regular backtracking, i.e. only subtracting 1 from the level.
21:22:12  shachaf: Right. Then I think I've understood correctly... and perhaps answered your question as well.
21:30:40  int-e: Back at computer.
21:31:34  strangely, the word "confusil" doesn't appear in quotes or wisdom ... yet
21:31:45  int-e: Whether you backtrack or backjump to a point earlier in the trail, you should have the same state, shouldn't you?
21:32:43  shachaf: No, because the backtracking will leave an additional literal on the trail.
21:32:51  I mean the same trail state. Your learned clauses might be different.
21:33:01  sorry I don't make more constructive conversation, but SAT solvers really isn't a topic I feel interested about
21:33:04  shachaf: before unit propragation with the learned clause kicks in.
21:33:40  Wait, backtracking only deletes everything past some point in the trail, doesn't it?
21:34:16  So at the time you unwind to any past level k, you've deleted everything past k in the trail.
21:34:19  shachaf: backtracking takes deletes the trail up to the last decision, and places the negated decision literal on the trail
21:34:48  When you say "that point" what do you mean?
21:35:11  I feel like I should just draw a diagram and the confusilation would be resolved in eight seconds.
21:35:30  shachaf: "that point" meaning the position of the decision literal that backjumping would replace on the trail.
21:37:04  Say you have a,b!,c,d,e!,f,g!,h,i on the trail, where the !ed literals are decisions and the rest are a result of unit propagation.
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21:37:39  You reach a contradiction and you add a clause, which would let you backjump to replace e. Right?
21:37:40  shachaf: if you have 1 2^d 3 4 5^d 6 7, a conflict, with learned clause -1,-7... then backjumping results in 1 -7 as the new trail, whereas if you continue the search until 2^d is removed by backtracking, you'll end up with 1 -2, and then unit propagation will add -7.
21:37:47  shachaf: ^d marks decisions.
21:38:12  Aha.
21:38:20  Now I see what you mean. Thanks.
21:40:48  So one of the important things about CDCL is that the only thing the learned clauses are any use for is unit propagation. Right?
21:41:09  So you want them to be as small as possible if you can manage it, or otherwise as relevant as possible within your assumptions. Or something like that.
21:41:18  . o O ( just like any other clauses )
21:41:47  No, the original clauses are useful for specifying your problems.
21:41:58  The new clauses are redundant and only useful if they make unit propagation happen.
21:42:12  I'm just saying something very obvious here.
21:42:14  Right.
21:42:26  Actually there's a point here.
21:42:50  SAT solvers also prune the clause database (they forget clauses), and that's only allowed for clauses that are redundant.
21:43:09  Which means that in most cases, they will only forget learned clauses.
21:43:12  Do they even forget original problem clauses?
21:43:49  There are simplification procedures (I know nothing about them really except that they exist) which can also identify redundant clauses.
21:43:56  I thought the main reason to forget clauses was to save memory, and otherwise having a bunch of clauses doesn't hurt.
21:44:00  But, sure, simplification makes sense.
21:44:11  Or potentially rewrite clauses (add some clauses that make other clauses redundant while maintaining satisfiability)
21:45:23  One of the slightly odd things about CDCL is that you have to use full clauses, rather than the reduced clauses you get after assuming some literals. Right?
21:46:06  You mean wrt the current trail?
21:46:10  I mean, if you have the clause (a | b | c), and you assume ¬b, you sometimes think of it as solving the subproblem where you have the clause (a | c).
21:46:28  But your learned clauses have to be globally true so you can't really talk about subproblems like that.
21:46:52  If you ever want to go back on that assumption and keep the learned clauses valid... yeah you'll need full clauses.
21:47:01  So in particular that's true for everything on the trail.
21:47:47  But I think that's not so bad because even if you learn a big clause, while you're in the same region (sharing most of the trail) it'll still be locally pretty small and so useful for unit propagation.
21:48:34  When your trail looks very different after a while, the big clause might be less useful, and you might be more inclined to forget it.
21:49:14  Also learning is completely optional... a SAT solver can just refuse to learn clauses above a certain size.
21:49:36  Right. Without learning a CDCL solver is still correct, which is good.
21:50:12  Maybe you can just use big clauses for backjumping without learning them? Not sure how useful that would be.
21:50:21  Actually it's kind of awful too... you have so many degrees of freedom for heuristics...
21:51:18  Which literal to decide on, what to learn, what to forget, when to restart...
21:51:44  Restarting seems like a surprising strategy to me. Especially a solver (BerkMin) that restarts every 550 conflicts?!
21:52:00  Do restarting solvers have any guarantee of termination?
21:52:24  They are supposed to do some sort of (exponential?) backoff...
21:53:00  But this interacts in interesting ways with learning.
21:53:30  If you learn all backjump clauses and never forget then even if you restart after every conflict you'll eventually solve the problem.
21:54:01  Oh, because everything slowly becomes forced by UP.
21:54:12  (this is degenerate... you'd have a conflict, analyse it to find the backjump clause, learn that clause, but never actually backjump because you're restarting anyway)
21:59:38  The other intuitive reason for restarts is that initially the variable selection heuristic has no information at all... with a restart, even early decision levels can benefit from the variable selection heuristic.
22:00:53  I suppose this is especially important for satisfiable problems.
22:09:15  Why is unit propagation the only thing used for assigning values to variables, other than decisions?
22:13:53  because it's fast?
22:14:57  And I guess the attitude is that all other inferences can be learned as clauses.
22:19:39  IIRC the original DPLL had a "pure literal" rule... if a literal only occurs positively in the current set of clauses (those that are not already true) then one can assert that literal to be true. Nobody implements this as part of the propagation rules.
22:21:51  If you're facing a decision like... "would you rather do X or 1k unit propagations"
22:22:23  it's easy to imagine that X probably won't pay off :)
22:49:11  boo, i need an SDR
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00:41:53   luckily it's not pizza <-- then it must be bell pepper and aubergine stew, just the way shachaf hates it
00:42:21  `? hungry
00:42:22  hungry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:57:37  `wisdom tinfoil
00:57:37  That's not wise.
00:57:56  `wisdom foil
00:57:57  ​foil//Foil is a material that provides protection against evil, such as mind control rays. To protect the world many heroes spend a lot of their time foiling villains.
00:58:50  huh that's mine
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04:38:53  [[User:IFcoltransG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66651 * IFcoltransG * (+369) Created my user page. Check it!
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07:08:15  "The reason why frequent restarts help solve problems faster is that while the solver does forget all current variable assignments, it does keep some information, specifically it keeps learnt clauses, effectively sampling the search space, and it keeps the last assigned truth value of each variable, assigning them the same value the next time they are picked to be assigned"
07:08:27  I didn't consider that last part.
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07:24:35  shachaf: it also keeps the scores used for the variable selection part of the decision heuristic
07:25:29  shachaf: so it is likely that it will branch on a similar set of variables after a restart
07:32:02  Right.
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08:07:59  who exactly is dying in out-of-order execution
08:12:22  int-e: that's an issue that may take until retirement to figure out
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08:37:56  IOCCC sources have been released
08:41:06  Taneb: There's a list for that.
08:45:23 -!- int-e has set topic: IOCCC source code escaped | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/.
08:46:25  shachaf: quite possibly
08:47:06  `listlist
08:47:07  FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist*
09:03:33  ..what's the FireFlist
09:03:38  do I want to know..
09:04:10  `cat bin/FireFlist
09:04:11  echo FireFly Eldis4
09:06:23  o
09:06:55  `culprits bin/FireFlist
09:06:57  nortẗi nortẗi
09:07:10  hmm. must be old :)
09:07:13  Why is my solver extremely slow?
09:07:43  I thought it was because I'm being very inefficient, but my friend's solver is also very inefficient and is also written in Python and is only slightly slower.
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09:13:33  Ah, Anevka. Things are coming together.
09:14:09  shachaf: could you have bad benchmark(s)?
09:14:18  as in, one of the solver gets lucky, the other not
09:22:15  It's the same random 3SAT instance.
09:22:52  and you've tried several I suppose?
09:23:11  but who knows, maybe you are doing something wrong
09:23:18  I think my time is roughly consistent.
09:23:31  I suspect this is just naıve in a way their solver isn't.
09:23:45  I wasn't worried about it because I was going to implement watched literals anyway, but it's a bit odd.
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09:27:53  ooh, let me see
09:28:20  `ioccclist https://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2019 The source code for the winners of the 26th IOCCC has been released. 
09:28:21  ioccclist https://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2019 The source code for the winners of the 26th IOCCC has been released. : b_jonas rain2 rain1
09:28:28  yay
09:28:36  Hmm, it might've just been luck for this instance.
09:28:46  If I assume false instead of true, the time goes way down.
09:29:48  " int-e: that's an issue that may take until retirement to figure out" => beautiful ambiguous statement, playing on how "retirement" has both a technical meaning in this context and an everyday meaning
09:30:48  oerjan: you can make bell pepper stew in an oven?
09:31:34  oerjan: oh right, it's just "foil"
09:31:43  oerjan: as for "hungry", the relevant wisdom is
09:31:45  `? ostrich
09:31:46  Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
09:32:50  this was apparently written by you
09:33:55  wib_jonas: as does "issue" :)
09:35:17  shig: IOCCC winners are released
09:36:03  let me thing where else on the internet should I ping with this news
09:36:12  Awesome!
09:37:59  jix: ah, didn't see those... now I feel bad :P
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09:47:41  OK, I think it was just my variable-picking strategy being very bad.
09:49:25  plausible... out of curiosity, did you test a satisfiable or an unsatisfiable problem?
09:49:40  Both, but mostly a satisfiable one.
09:51:39  I'd probably use mostly unsatisfiable instances for comparison between solvers... or many satisfiable instances. Luck is too much of a factor for satisfiable instances.
09:52:48  people also randomize inputs... shuffling literals and clauses.
09:53:52  int-e: and randomly negating them, like in bfjoust
09:55:22  bfjoust is not random though, is it
09:55:49  even for unsat instances variance is crazy, which makes good benchmarking take a long time and cost a lot :(
09:57:14  int-e: the random space is so small that we try all possibilities, so we don't do a real random sample, but the idea is the same
09:57:40  some instances work better when you negate the direction, so we try both negated and non-negated
10:16:45  hi
10:18:42  hi Lykaina
10:19:47  40 min till quiet time in my apartment building is lifted
10:21:18  ugh...
10:22:12  i'll take meds then and go back to sleep
10:24:17  woke at 5am
10:26:20  the mace is in the house
10:27:18  int-e: huh?
10:27:25  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzPf4RRG1Rc ;-)
10:27:43  can't...still quiet time
10:27:55  "LIVE State Opening of Parliament: 14 October 2019"
10:35:37  i wonder if the uk is pissed that they voted for brexit
10:36:21  they're still divided on that according to polls
10:36:40  seriously?
10:36:50  seriously.
10:37:19  Lykaina is probably on the east coast of North America then
10:37:43  probably
10:38:31  queen arrived, house of commons summoned... this will take a while :)
10:39:34  if they do a no-deal brexit, i will be disappointed
10:39:55  At this point I won't. But it's unlikely to happen just now.
10:40:42  I'm kind of expecting another extension and a general election in the UK. But I don't really know; I think nobody does.
10:41:03  i hope they stay in the eurozone
10:41:36  That seems unlikely.
10:41:52  right, they need to sacrifice a prime minister as a scapegoat a few times per year, and a general election is the easiest way to choose the next person to be sacrificed
10:42:06  Oh Johnson's speech has begun. (Read by the Queen, of course.)
10:42:10  Lykaina: what? eurozone?
10:42:19  they're not using the euro
10:42:30  yeahno
10:42:44  int-e: huh, why would the Queen read the PM's speech?
10:42:58  wib_jonas: Because that's how this "Queen's speech" works.
10:43:00  i mean, free travel
10:43:59  also, we've got the near final results for the local govt elections. opposition win in Budapest is now confirmed, in fact they got one more place than they seemed to have when I checked in the evening.
10:44:33  int-e: that's weird
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10:44:49  wib_jonas: Well it is the UK. :P
10:45:01  uck
10:45:58  Lykaina: did you know that Corbyn is pro Brexit?
10:46:09  who?
10:46:22  The leader of the Labour party.
10:46:27  oh
10:46:44  The party line is different, interestingly enough.
10:47:14  what about the tories?
10:47:32  or does tories = labour?
10:47:58  Nah, they are opposing parties.
10:48:02  Lykaina: tories = conservative party, who are in government and led by Boris Johnson
10:52:32  which country is led by boris badnoff? i forgot
10:52:40  and the queen has left
10:53:28  I'm not sure what happens next... apparently the house of commons members return there...
10:54:07  There's a debate on whether the Commons accept the Queen's Speech
10:54:25  Nice. Should be fun.
10:54:59  what did the queen argue for/against?
10:55:37  brexit, law and order, environmental protection (interestingly enough), leadership (of the UK in the world) after brexit
10:55:43  I don't remember all of it.
10:56:29  I'm sure we can read the whole thing online in a couple of hours.
10:58:36  (law and order... there was a bit about giving the polic force the means of defending themselves, and something about giving them the power to arrest people with warrants by "trusted partners".
10:58:40  )
10:59:48  Anyway. I've never seen this ceremony; now I have. Yay me :)
11:00:14  how old is she again?
11:00:46  93
11:00:52  omg
11:01:13  If she were here she's probably be the oldest person in the channel
11:03:00  Lykaina: Anyway, the polls that I recall said that a small majority would be in favour of staying in the EU now. However, not all of those people want to abandon the Brexit process...
11:03:32  confused
11:04:37  Lykaina: The first question is entirely hypothetical... if the Brexit process had not been started, and there was a referendum on that today just like there was (uhm, 3?) years ago, how would they vote.
11:05:47  The second question is about actually going back and stopping the Brexit process that has been started and ongoing for all the time since.
11:06:09  I imagine a lot of people now want it to be over with, not really caring about the result.
11:07:50  int-e: 3.5 years
11:07:58  close enough
11:08:04  (for my standards)
11:08:07  Yeah
11:08:23  Actually... I'm mixed up, it was in the summer, wasn't it?
11:08:32  And then article 50 was invoked the following Spring
11:08:42  So, 3.25
11:08:45  Very close
11:08:58  Let's meet in the middle!
11:14:58  The queen ended the speech, now she's leaving.
11:15:27  Hmm no, maybe she isn't.
11:15:31  I don't understand how this works.
11:16:13  She's speaking again now.
11:18:01  wib_jonas: I think your coverage may be behind?
11:18:57  " If she were here she's probably be the oldest person in the channel" lol
11:19:03  `? people who taneb isn't
11:19:04  people who taneb isn't? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:19:07  `? people who taneb aren't
11:19:08  people who taneb aren't? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:19:10  hmm
11:19:12  `? people who taneb is not
11:19:13  elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
11:19:51  odd
11:20:03  `quote elliodd
11:20:06  No output.
11:20:09  Taneb: this youtube thingy says it's "live", but then, I've see so many things in television where they still have the "live" caption when it's replayed, so I don't really trust it
11:20:24  either they should add "not live" as a caption, or add a timestamp next to "live"
11:20:28  wib_jonas: The live stream has ended 20ish minutes ago
11:20:35  ah I see
11:20:39  it says "live" and also "replay"
11:20:44  good
11:20:46  then it's not live
11:25:59  Fun Taneb fact: I have what is to my knowlege the largest collection of autographed Haskell textbooks
11:26:14  (I have two)
11:27:45  Taneb: how many of those did you autograph yourself?
11:28:32  wib_jonas: zero, they are both autographed by the respective author
11:29:00  (one by Graham Hutton and one by Simon Marlow)
11:29:17  HSE... RWH maybe?
11:29:43  Programming in Haskell (second edition) and Paralle and Concurrent Program ming in Haskell
11:29:49  Oh.
11:29:56  Btw, LYAHFAGG would earn you negative points.
11:30:40  Funny, there are more Haskell textbooks than I thought.
11:31:44  `slashlearn people who taneb is not//Taneb is not elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first, or anyone older than Queen Elizabeth the Second. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
11:31:46  Relearned 'people who taneb is not': Taneb is not elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first, or anyone older than Queen Elizabeth the Second. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
12:18:53  [[Deadfish~]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66652&oldid=66648 * A * (+124) /* Implementation */
12:19:54   Btw, LYAHFAGG would earn you negative points. => hm but it’s where I learned about zippers first
12:21:35  arseniiv: if you ever start a collection of haskell textbooks, this is the one you hide in the attic.
12:21:59  that's all I was saying ;)
12:22:38  and obviously I'm compleeeetly objective about this.
12:23:02  Not tainted by personal opiona at all.
12:31:44  hm hm :D
12:31:53  "opiona" 
12:32:10  int-e: what does the second A stand for in "LYAHFAGG"?
12:32:27  my one concern is that its density is pretty low
12:33:51  wib_jonas: I thought there was an "a" there. I didn't check.
12:37:26  arseniiv: yeah, that means you can't even effectively use it as a doorstopper
12:38:07  wib_jonas: Yes, I've marvelled at "opiona" as well... :)
12:38:19  A stroke of genius. Or maybe just a stroke. Who knows.
12:39:00  fungot, do you have an opiona on the opiuma crisis?
12:39:00  wib_jonas: as soon as i get the feeling i'm saying the point of
12:40:19  fungot: you should become a politician
12:40:19  int-e: and besides, some people don't
12:40:26  fungot: exactly
12:40:26  int-e: on the other hand i you *do* have install priviledges then it's much too dark as well :) just trying that now. well, maybe
12:40:53  "priviledges"
12:45:04  doorstoper reminds me of this old strip https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2006-12-14
12:46:02  wib_jonas: rofol
12:46:53   A stroke of genius. Or maybe just a stroke. Who knows. => please don’t give genii strokes, it’s bad for their healths
12:48:46  wib_jonas: rofol => I meant the first doorstopper message but I’ve seen that strip too
12:49:39  I won’t say “rofol” on a cruel humor, it would be too much even if it has some fun :)
12:56:06  [[Deadfish~]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66653&oldid=66652 * A * (+15) /* Implementation */
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14:43:38  hello
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14:53:19  exciting about IOCCC!
14:54:17  hello rain1
14:54:22  hi
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16:43:27  [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66654&oldid=66539 * AnimaLibera * (+36) 
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17:04:10  @metar ESSB
17:04:11  ESSB 141650Z 35004KT 320V030 9999 FEW022 08/07 Q1014
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18:52:53  [ 150*(mile=:1609.344)
18:52:53  b_jonas: 241402
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20:44:05  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Refp *  New user account
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20:50:57  I am prone to crash into nostalgia and it’s bad and unconstructive
20:53:02  now I hopelessly tried to find a photo of a place which isn’t the same anymore as it was rebuilt several years ago. And I don’t know if it persisted and from which mobile phone it was shoot at all, maybe from the one which isn’t turning on anymore
20:53:58  "if the data exists, the thing exists" is a fallacy I run into.
20:54:23  though I flagged several photos as broken in filenames and added some code to my program for filling in creation date of a file when it’s newer than its modification date (yep that happens)
20:54:23  it's why I take photos of everything and stow them away like a squirrel. it isn't healthy and it's not constructive.
20:54:39  imode: :(
20:55:30  and not that even that place was significant to me to be in, it just had a funny design of its name
20:55:45  ah, not that
20:56:47  this was a cafe inside a big place, the place got rebuild and I won’t walk in its old layout anymore, and it’s a bit sad, and in that cafe I don’t remember to be in
20:57:04  and it’s not that sad
20:57:09  but the name design
20:57:47  also I was stupid to clean some DVDs with a version of the not-so-yearly backup
20:57:53  that could be useful too
20:59:14  and there were some DVD-Rs which persisted only because I couldn’t clear them. And later they proved to be useful, even
20:59:39  despite being made in approx. 2008
20:59:54  that’s just silly
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21:32:39  imode: taking photos of everything and filing them away is a good thing. it is constructive. 
21:33:30  until you imagine the growing pile of picture creeping up on you and burying you under an avalanche of impressions to sort through.
21:33:53  `? alice
21:33:53  Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
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22:51:28  int-e: I haven't been taking enough pictures, and I spent way too little time sorting through them and publishing the ones that I should publish, and I feel some amount of shame about that. but a growing pile creeping? nah, that'll never happen
22:51:48  admittedly I am somewhat conservative with how many pictures I take
22:51:59  but still
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23:23:27  int-e: we should just wait for arriving of a good AI photo sorter, no worries about piles, why
23:26:51  “these twenty photos are almost the same, these eight are all blurry, these three differ in these details, these eleven I don’t advise to look for too closely due to too many arthropodes depicted”
23:27:12  the first comma should be a colon instead
23:28:36  and then you look at all twenty two of them anyway as you think there could have been false negatives and interesting artistic possibilities
23:30:10  there are two extra ones due to a flaw in AI so that when it inspects images, it sometimes adds their weighted averages to the mix
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2019-10-15:

00:06:52  kmc: are you into sat solvers yet
00:12:01  not really
00:12:09  i've been into them for brief periods in the past
00:12:18  i wanted to use sat solvers to run Game of Life backwards
00:12:21  but couldn't get it working
00:15:12  I was reading Knuth's fancy thing that does that.
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00:46:39  oh?
00:48:25  It's in TAOCP volume 4 fascicle 6.
00:49:11  Also there's a program at http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/lect/taocp-sat/knuth/pdf/sat-life.pdf ?
00:50:34  TACOP
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05:04:32  Under what conditions does a programming language have quines?
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05:27:35  I wanted to figure out whether the existence of quines was a direct consequence of Lawvere's fixed point theorem.
05:27:49  It's surely related, but the construction is usually somewhat different.
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07:31:53  shachaf: I'm pretty sure any Turing-complete language whose programs can be enumerated has a quine, by the s-n-m theorem.
07:32:11  s-m-n theorem.  whetevr.  it's early.
07:33:51  I guess "running a program" in the language has to considered to be able to produce an integer, or whatever the programs are enumerated with.
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07:38:32  Hmm.
07:43:16  @teill arseniiv "we should just wait for arriving of a good AI photo sorter" <-- I'm waiting for the AI that will create the photos that I should have taken
07:43:16  Consider it noted.
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07:50:31  On the subject of quines, I was reading about Richard's paradox last night, and if I'm not mistaken, a Richardian number is basically the same as a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Narcissist 
07:51:03  cpressey: I think maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleene%27s_recursion_theorem has an answer to my question.
07:55:53  cpressey: Hmm, what's interesting about this paradox as opposed to all the other well-known paradoxes that seem identical to it?
07:56:03  Oh, maybe it's just old.
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07:59:44  I found it when trying to research why lambda calculus and combinatory logic are not used as deductive systems, even though they were invented as deductive systems. The Kleene-Rosser paradox that shows that ^c is inconsistent, is apparently more or less a version of Richard's paradox.
07:59:44  cpressey: Oh I didn't know of that paradox. Of course on a formal level it'll be resolved by Tarski's theorem
08:00:14  I also don't particularly see narcissists as very interestingly different from quines, though it's possible I'm missing something there.
08:01:20  (Tarski's theorem = undefinablility of truth. The sentence whose truth is of interest here is "F defines a unique real number")
08:01:21  I'd have to imagine that every Turing-complete language admits a quine. How could it not?
08:01:46  (Unless you're playing games with encoding, which don't seem that interesting to me.)
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08:02:33  TC-ness doesn't require any output capability (beyond one bit).
08:03:13  Yes, that's true. One semibit.
08:03:36  I mean a mathematical truth value.
08:03:49  But I guess I don't care about that too much. I'm looking for interesting ways in which languages can fail to have quines.
08:04:09  Not a weird three-state bit.
08:04:30  Which truth value are you talking about in particular? Halts/doesn't halt?
08:05:21  accept/doesn't accept
08:05:47  OK, sure, I guess.
08:05:53  We have some wild cases that never halt.
08:06:09  Oh, here's a different question.
08:06:16  Hmm, I'm actually not sure how to phrase this question.
08:06:57  Lawvere's theorem is along the lines of, say you a function : A -> (A -> B) which is surjective. Then every function : B -> B must have a fixed point.
08:07:13  (For appropriate values of "function" and "surjective" and "(A -> B)".)
08:07:27  [[Wagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66655&oldid=65529 * Chris Pressey * (+332) Expand lead a little bit
08:07:29  say you have
08:07:50  shachaf: any TC formalism will allow the kind of circularity that Kleene's fixed point theorem embodies. I.E. a program can contain a full description of itself, suitable for simulation or other analysis.
08:08:03  int-e: Yes, that's what I was getting at.
08:08:23  And I agree that it's really hard to capture this more rigorously.
08:08:36  That seems more interesting than insisting on quines which gets into a bunch of nonsense.
08:08:48  I guess that question was about sub-TC systems.
08:09:15  For the most part, Quines are just cute programming puzzles of no real importance.
08:09:20  Clearly some of those can still create quines (and use the same techniques that you'd normally use, not something one-off).
08:09:41  Also on the subject of quines: https://github.com/dpiponi/infinite-quine
08:09:44  Yes, I'm certainly not concerned with the quine itself.
08:10:42  We have a notion of I/O-completeness on the wiki. An O-complete TC language has quines.
08:10:42  Anyway, on Lawvere's theorem.
08:11:15  What should I call A and B? I'm tempted to call A "Name", where A names an element of A -> B
08:11:37  (And with that element in turn an A names a B.)
08:11:48  Surjectivity means that everything has a name.
08:12:11  One concrete example is A as any set, and B as 2, which gives you Cantor's theorem.
08:12:51  If you can map elements of A to subsets of A such that every subset can be named by an element, then ¬ : 2 -> 2 has a fixed point.
08:14:20  Why is (A -> B) the right codomain here in general?
08:15:55  That's clearly not the question I want to be asking.
08:18:03  Maybe instead of B=2 I should take an example with an arbitrary B.
08:18:24  The Y combinator gives you fixed points for any function : B -> B this way.
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08:24:50  OK, I guess you can say that eval : A -> (A -> B) is a two-argument function doing the same sort of thing Q(x, y) is?
08:25:01  Hmm, no, that's nonsense.
08:26:14  How would you phrase "eval : A -> (A -> B) is surjective" on an uncurried function eval : A×A -> B?
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08:52:22  Is SK-calculus known to be confluent? I mean it *must* be, right?  I've just never seen anyone say anything about it one way or the other.
08:53:38  You can probably show it just by showing that the translation to lambda calculus preserves confluence.
08:53:38  Do you mean something other than the confluence you get if you expand every S and K to lambdas?
08:58:48  Confluence as a rewriting system?
08:59:23  Hmm, I guess that makes more sense.
08:59:59  Speaking of SK, I still don't understand why BCKW is a good system.
09:00:14  I already like it but I'd like to like it for a good reason.
09:00:37  shachaf: I found it easier to understand the translation between lambda calculus and BCKW than lambda calculus and SK
09:01:12  What I'd like is a connection to reordering, weakening, and contraction.
09:01:50  What's the lambda calculus translation?
09:02:25  cpressey: SK and SKI are confluent
09:02:45  I can't remember, this was about 8 years ago I did this
09:02:52  Near when I was first in here
09:03:22  you're still in the top ten in here hth
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09:03:47  cpressey: They are orthogonal first-order term rewriting systems. This is usually shown by introducing a parallel reduction relation and something called a "parallel moves lemma" that shows that that relation has the diamond property (ensuring confluence); the terminology is similar to that used for the lambda calculus but the proofs are actually quite a bit simpler.
09:04:13  cpressey: I forgot, did you mention having looked at Baader/Nipkow's book on term rewriting?
09:04:53  (because that stuff is all covered in that book)
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09:05:20  Except maybe the concrete case of combinatory logic
09:07:23  Btw, orthogonal = left-linear (no duplicate variables in left-hand sides of rules) + absence of critical pairs (which you might know from Knuth/Bendix completion or the corresponding confluence criterion for terminating systems).
09:08:29  Taneb: do you also approach these systems from a point of view of abstraction elimination?
09:08:52  (BCKW(I) and SK(I))
09:09:15  Actually, hrm. I want SBCKI, I don't like W at all.
09:09:38  SBICK
09:10:03  W is supposed to replace S presumably, as the only combinator that does duplication.
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09:10:11  Why don't you like W?
09:10:12  myname: you missed the oppertunity there: BSICK (be sick)
09:10:34  shachaf: because it has no immediate use for abstraction elimination
09:10:34  damn
09:11:08  \x. M[x] N[x] -> S (\x.M[x]) (\x.N[x])
09:11:43  but with BCKW you artificially (to my mind) deduplicate the x first, ... -> W (\x1 x2. M[x1] N[x2]) x.
09:12:37  Well, you might be interested in talking about substructural logic.
09:12:54  I'm usually not.
09:12:59  So I could be interested in what you get with BCK without W, for instance.
09:13:14  Sure, but I also get that from SBCKI by dropping the S.
09:14:09  I don't like the flavour of duplication offered by W; I prefer the flavor offered by S.
09:14:15  That's it in a nutshell.
09:14:16  The S is serving multiple purposes, I guess.
09:14:39  I like S but I'm curious whether a simpler basis will let you pick out parts you like better.
09:15:02  Hmm, is there a standard combinatory basis for some kind of linear lambda calculus?
09:15:03  But I'm definitely not approaching this from a logical perspective. My first encounter of combinatory logic was as a model of computation.
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09:15:41  shachaf: Sure, BCI is the standard basis for that, add K if you allow deletion.
09:15:57  " I'd have to imagine that every Turing-complete language admits a quine. How could it not?" => only if they can do universal IO
09:16:08  I do like B and C precisely because they capture linearity.
09:16:19  Something that SK hides.
09:16:19  wib_jonas: Yes, see the discussion below.
09:16:29  ah wait, I'll read on
09:16:32  How do you turn a lambda term into BCKW?
09:16:44  Let's see.
09:16:52  BCKW => we just had a discussion about that
09:17:08  http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/samson.abramsky/pcpt.pdf
09:17:33  you have \x. M[x] N -> X (\x.M[x]) N, \x. M N[x] -> Y M (\x.N[x]), where X,Y \in {B,C}.
09:17:39  I can never remember which is which.
09:17:55  OK, that PDF indeed makes the connection I wanted.
09:18:21  int-e: I don't quite know what you mean by abstraction elimination (my brain isn't fully awake yet)
09:18:25  (So these look like specializations of \x. M[x] N[x] -> S (\x.M[x]) (\x.N[x]) when x does not occur freely in N or M)
09:18:32  delambdification?
09:18:33  SBCKI would be better, I think
09:18:44  in particular, there are no non-empty quines in geo because it can only output decimal integers (followed by a newline), but the source has to have "print" in it to output anything
09:19:07  Taneb: the process of starting from a lambda term (which has lambda-abstractions) and turning it into an equivalent (in some sense) abstraction-free term using your combinator basis
09:19:22  but this probably isn't an interesting reason
09:19:32  wib_jonas: OK, but I already said that that's an encoding detail that I don't find interesting.
09:20:21  int-e: yeah, I think that's what I do
09:20:50  " For the most part, Quines are just cute programming puzzles of no real importance." => Smullyan and Hofstadter would disagree 
09:22:08  wib_jonas: "quine" is just a surface phenomenon (a program that prints its own source code)... you need much more to make it computationally interesting
09:22:59  int-e: right, that's why Golf SE tried to qualify interesting quines with a rule, so that non-cheating quines are ones that are useful for building self-referential programs
09:23:05  int-e: Right, yes. I've read Baader and Nipkow, also some other texts on term rewriting. Didn't remember about orthogonality of term rewrite systems. Didn't really occur to me at the time to look at SK-calculus as a rewrite system. And I guess lots of other ppl don't usually look at it that way either.
09:23:30  and, in particular, empty quines, or quines that are just a numeral in languages that echo a numeral, are considered cheating for them
09:25:01  ``` dc <<<6581840dnP
09:25:02  6581840dnP
09:25:40  Oh, I like this connection to polynomial time.
09:25:55  I don't really know good ways of talking about computational complexity for lambda calculus at all.
09:26:10  That's a quine, but hardly interesting from a logical perspective... there's no real quoting (quining) going on here.
09:26:55  cpressey: That's fair. Happy to help with connecting dots :)
09:27:04  I imagine lambda calculus is just bad at talking about things like time and space constraints.
09:27:18  int-e, KBCSI => yeah, that could work
09:27:29  Since reduction is so unrealistic.
09:28:18  but my problem is sort of that all of these get weird if you try to abstraction-eliminate multiple variables
09:28:50  so could I instead advocate Amicus, which deals with functions of multiple variables naturally?
09:30:37  «It was always hard for many to comprehend how Cantor’s mathematical theorem could be re-christened as a ”paradox“ by Russell and how Gödel’s theorem could be so often declared to be the most significant result of the 20th century. There was always the suspicion among scientists that such extra-mathematical publicity movements concealed an agenda for re-establishing belief as a substitute for s
09:30:43  cience. Now, one hundred years after ...
09:30:46  ... Gödel’s birth, the organized attempts to harness his great mathematical work to such an agenda have become explicit.»
09:31:45  wib_jonas: The other thing that makes writing quine more of a puzzle is that ultimately the quining process is very automatic (one cute trick: take a description of a program P(x) that takes a description of a program Q and produces Q([Q]) by whatever notation) but you have a lot of leeway in choosing the encoding for Q, so that's what the focus tends to be on.
09:33:20  In the end 6581840dnP doesn't depart from the core idea at all... but the encoding is chosen such that both priting [Q] and printing Q is done by a single dc instruction.
09:34:58  int-e: no no, the argument Q is printed by [n] instruction, the program Q is pritned by the [P] instruction
09:35:17  wib_jonas: You may have mis-parsed what I wrote.
09:35:58  `dc -e 6581840dn
09:35:58  6581840
09:36:02  `dc -e 6581840dP
09:36:04  dnP
09:36:10  wib_jonas: I KNOW HOW IT WORKS DAMNIT
09:36:20  yeah, sorry, but I wasn't sure how it worked
09:36:34  because I don't write dc stuff and the instructions are weird
09:36:44  so I had to test it
09:37:57  (I came up with that quine myself some years ago. But it's obvious enough that I would be surprised if I was the first.)
09:39:28  yeah. the perl quine that starts with print<< x2,$/ is also like that, multiple people come up with it independently by simply trying to write a very short quine
09:39:53  whereas some of the other perl quines that I wrote are much less canonical
09:40:47  > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
09:40:49   text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
09:40:56  https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=835076 these for example
09:41:40  and I have ones like
09:41:48  `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
09:41:49  ​`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
09:42:01  where the order of the strings in the list is totally arbitrary
09:42:22  `perl -eprint+("\\","\"",",","`perl -eprint+(",")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
09:42:22  So does this pattern fit into the Lawvere theorem form?
09:42:23  ​`perl -eprint+("\\","\"",",","`perl -eprint+(",")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
09:46:37  ais523: here's a perl quine by mtve that has only ascii punctuation and spaces. I don't know how it works, but perhaps it also helps with your string eval question: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=836752
10:01:55  woah, really... 'In late 2011, Intel [35]introduced a performance enhancement to its line of server processors that allowed network cards and other peripherals to connect directly to a CPU's last-level cache'
10:02:24  [35] is https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/data-direct-i-o-technology.html
10:03:41  context is https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/09/another_side_ch.html (I'm reading the october CRYPTO-GRAM)
10:03:55  int-e: yeah, that's what spawned all the rumors about NSA backdoors
10:04:40  I'm a bit surprised I missed this.
10:05:18  I didn't miss the ME stuff (which is a backdoor by design, if you look at it cynically enough)
10:05:27  well, it's one of the things that spawned the rumors at least
10:05:39  (I mean ME = management engine)
10:06:18  I think IME is the official abbreviation.
10:06:23  int-e: how about the enclave thing, that lets you create encrypted parts of the memory that can run code but where the rest of the programs that the cpu runs can't read that code and its state?
10:07:07  I didn't miss that either... I see it as related really.
10:07:38  (It's also a bit of the extension of the decades old system manangement mode.)
10:08:26  OK, when you have f.g = id, what should you call f and g?
10:08:37  "left inverse" and "right inverse" is too confusing, I think.
10:08:44  I mean, SMM is almost as invasive, also based on hiding a region of memory, just not /designed/ to be secure.
10:09:03  you should consider the other side though. rather than keeping all the technology that they use for the backdoors a secret that nobody will find unless they spend a man-decade of studying electron-microscope scans, they benevolently document all the backdoor capabilities of the cpu so that you can write high performance backdoors too
10:09:04  shachaf: left inverse of g; right inverse of f.
10:09:14  I've been going with "retraction" and "section" but I'm suspecting that's not so great either.
10:09:15  it's not exclusive to the NSA, you can backdoor the bios too
10:09:33  int-e: The problem is that if you say "f is a right inverse", I have to write down the thing to see what's going on.
10:10:58  Maybe the intuition I want is "object" and "name": Every object has at least one name, and you can pick out a canonical name (at least if you have choice).
10:11:29  why would every object have at least one name? no way
10:11:36  wib_jonas: It's not even necessary to involve the NSA as a driver here... SMM was introduced to simulate legacy hardware capabilities. Secure enclaves can be perfectly explained by the desire to enforce copyright. Data direct I/O addresses a genuine (if very high-end) performance problem.
10:11:43  especially not when the names come from a countable set and the objects come from a bigger one
10:11:49  Well, it does in this case, because you have a surjection.
10:12:09  wait, what is SMM?
10:12:27  What's a better terminology where I can easily remember which set is the bigger one and which function goes in which direction?
10:12:32  wib_jonas: I mean I would be surprised if the NSA were not involved in this at all... they are too big. But I don't think they have to do anything beyond subtle nudging here.
10:12:38  wib_jonas: System Management Mode
10:12:48  int-e: sure
10:13:07  wib_jonas: Not sure when that was introduced, i386 or i486 maybe? Around that time I think.
10:13:08  int-e: I don't mean that it has to be the NSA specifically, that's just the name that people use in rumors
10:13:52  int-e: but in reality it's usually the big secret agencies of all other countries that puts the backdoors there, rather than the secret agency of your country
10:14:15  int-e: system management mode, how does that differ from ME?
10:14:16  SMM can be used for things like simulating the AT keyboard interface (port 60h/61h) for USB hardware.
10:14:25  in i386? no way
10:14:36  wib_jonas: It runs on the same processor.
10:15:04  It's just that certain I/O operations can trigger a software emulation layer. Nothing really deep.
10:15:23  huh, ok
10:15:32  'It was first released with the Intel 386SL.'
10:17:01  int-e: ah, so five years after the 386
10:17:05  that's more believable
10:17:07  [[Wagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66656&oldid=66655 * Chris Pressey * (+599) More describing language overview
10:17:14  The ME is a full (but less powerful) separate core... that's a fairly recent thing.
10:18:39  But even there its existence can be explained in a perfectly innocent way.
10:20:21  Initializing a processor (memory subsystem (training DRAM, probably other I/O lines as well)) has become so complex that it's better to do it in software than in pure hardware. As a bonus, you get the ability to work around some hardware bugs in software. Now if you're Intel, which hardware platform are you likely to use for this?
10:21:12  intel did use a 3rd party architecture (ARC) for the ME for a long time until they switched to a x86 core AFAIK
10:21:20  So now you have a separate processor on your die... and it's dormant for most of the system's operation. That's stupid maybe you can find a use for it? ... and suddenly you end up with an ME-like device.
10:22:21  (which I found quite funny, given the origin of ARC as the superfx chip used in starfox on the super nintendo)
10:22:23  (Of course the architecture is secondary. If it's a universal machine... it can be used for arbitrary purposes.)
10:22:57  "Now if you're Intel, which hardware platform are you likely to use for this?" => I'm not familiar with the licensing situation of cpus really
10:23:44  Intel tried to make a GPU out of X86.
10:24:39  Or are trying to make... according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(microarchitecture) they've revived that project.
10:25:29  Intel is back at it with Larrabee?
10:25:35  The only reason I can think of why they didn't went with x86 in the first place is that an ARC core is smaller than what intel had at that time
10:25:36  int-e: that sounds like a ... ugh
10:25:45  seriously, a gpu out of x86?
10:26:23  (The timing makes sense actually... now that we want to do raytracing with (I suspect) hardly predictable memory access patterns, the SIMT model will run into severe problems.)
10:26:34  wib_jonas: Intel.
10:26:51  int-e: That page is very ambiguous about it.
10:26:52  wib_jonas: The ones with the 0x8086 vendor id.
10:27:02  (PCI)
10:27:06  Or rather it's not ambiguous enough. Is there any definite connection to Larrabee?
10:31:11  I don't find any tangible evidence of that connection either.
10:31:18  Still, it's Intel ;-)
10:33:32  And anyway, it definitely *tried*, which was my main point.
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11:08:00   But I'm definitely not approaching this from a logical perspective. My first encounter of combinatory logic was as a model of computation.  <-- That would seem to be the dominant paradigm for it these days. But I'm interested in the logical perspective of it atm. I guess you can write proofs in SKI by treating it like the Hilbert system it was derived from. But you can't use the deduction theorem
11:08:02  for brevity, you have to write it all out in full.
11:08:38  It sounds awful, but it also sound like you could "compile" a sentence in first-order logic, into it.
11:09:50  my first encounter of combinatory logic was unlambda
11:09:56  Rather I think I mean, "compile" a proof written in natural deduction style in FOL, into it.
11:12:19  "Under the Curry–Howard correspondence, the above conversion process for the deduction meta-theorem is analogous to the conversion process from lambda calculus terms to terms of combinatory logic" oh. Well. Okay then
11:12:24  cpressey: W makes perfect sense if you have an explicit rule for duplicating premises in a sequent
11:12:58  int-e: which W is that?
11:13:13  the C f x = f x x one
11:13:25  Ugh
11:13:26  W combinator#
11:13:32  W f x = f x x
11:13:51  cpressey: see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic
11:13:54  (is there another?)
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11:15:37  what's its bird name?
11:15:39  I was just hoping you weren't referring to some System W that I'd never heard of.  Anyway yes.  W is dup and C is swap and this is Forth
11:19:52  So if the answer to my (unspoken) question "What's one of the simplest languages in which a proof can be stated and mechanically checked?" is "SK-calculus" then I guess my question becomes "How complex would a compiler from a tolerable proof language, to SK-terms, be?"
11:20:21  that depends on what you'd call tolerable
11:20:28  haskell to SK should be pretty easy
11:20:59  like, we do that manually in first semester here
11:21:20  You convert proofs written in Haskell into proofs written in SKI-calculus?
11:22:08  not proofs as such but small programms to lambda calculus and lambda calculus to SKI
11:22:19  removing I should be fairly easy
11:29:45  I only remember the bird name of two combinators really: S is seregély and K is vércse
11:30:16  also, do we have a link from the wiki to the crocodile family interpretation of lambda calculus_
11:30:35  we don't. I'll have to add one
11:31:32  aren't those alligators?
11:31:48  yeah, alligators
11:32:09  K is clearly for cancel
11:34:05  wib_jonas: what is that?
11:35:13  [[Lambda calculus]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66657&oldid=58720 * B jonas * (+732) Alligator eggs
11:35:26  Taneb: ^
11:35:54  I don't really like them that much
11:37:55  Birdlife: Kestrels compete with starlings for nest cavities
11:38:08  I didn't know that there was so much competition in the SK world.
11:41:03  [[Lambda calculus]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66658&oldid=66657 * B jonas * (+16) /* External resources */
12:22:43  [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66659&oldid=66653 * A * (-9) /* Implementation */
12:49:42  [[Wagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66660&oldid=66656 * Chris Pressey * (+1032) Create partially-filled-out table of primitive Wagon macros.
12:58:59  [[Wagon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66661&oldid=66660 * Chris Pressey * (+1074) Finish the primitives stable. No longer a stub, I think.
14:19:38  [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66662&oldid=60398 * Camto * (+19) Lmao
14:20:56  [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66663&oldid=66662 * Camto * (+6) Rewording
14:24:02  [[User:Camto]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66664&oldid=66663 * Camto * (-70) Friendship ended with OOT Now Thue is my best friend
14:24:32  [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66665&oldid=66664 * Camto * (+6) Aha
14:26:14  [[User:Camto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66666&oldid=66665 * Camto * (+7) BF dialecs
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17:45:52  I had a thought to take from J its part-of-speech terminolody and strange rules (which I don’t know) and from Lojban its puristic non-european-centric approach to terminology and that to result in an obfuscation-first language but it would need more good ideas
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17:52:12  so I have a silly idea
17:52:55  épelung: a spelling reform for the English language where you spell words the same as the most corresponding etymologically related word in modern German or modern French
17:53:37  this sounds like it probably has a canonical execution somewhere on the internet, but searching for "épelung" or "épeleung" shows that those words are quasi-nonexistent, and what else would you call this system?
17:56:01  https://repl.it/repls/ShadowyBumpyLinkedlist
17:59:01  I don't know what it is call, perhaps, is English without English.
18:10:16  also, yesterday's SMBC http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/mathematicians about matrix multiplication algorithm asymptotics is fun
18:16:16  hah
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19:56:30  oh int-e I’ve just read what you @told that time
19:56:57  I’m so fast
20:24:30  Do you know how to make text formatting in PostScript? To implement printer output in the implementation of Z-machine in PostScript, I should know how to do that.
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20:55:44  .oO(A legendary land that enters untapped and taps for one mana of any colour that could not be produced by your other mana in play.)
20:56:28  other lands* in play
20:56:37  OK, that might do.
20:56:42  Is there such a card?
20:56:48  I don't know
20:56:54  Would be kind of interesting
20:57:28  Any lands on the battlefield or any lands you control?
20:57:52  hmm
20:58:01  lands you control, probably?
20:58:01  Can it also be tapped for colorless?
20:59:16  Any lands on the battlefield (including your opponents') might make it unusable
20:59:51  I don't think it'd be able to tap for colourless, but obviously that could be a variation on the idea
21:07:08  If you have more than one land with that ability, then what? Rule 106.7 doesn't seem to mention if they interfere with each other in this way.
21:07:18  (Although, rule 106.7 could be fixed so that it does work.)
21:08:11  zzo38: Well, it's a legendary land anyway.
21:08:19  Yes, but there are still ways to work around that.
21:08:45  (e.g. Mirror Gallery)
21:10:48  Probably it should be considered a land that could produce mana of any colour, so that it shuts off any other copies of itself entirely.
21:11:14  (but yeah, there's a funny paradox there)
21:11:34  I don't think it's much of a paradox.
21:11:44  Hmm, maybe.
21:11:50  It is a bit different from other mana abilities.
21:12:12  It's almost exactly Russell's paradox :D
21:12:58  Sure, but I meant that answers to this kind of question are established.
21:13:34  Note that rule 106.7 does not say only mana abilities or only activated abilities.
21:15:33  Or how about a land that can produce 2 mana of any colour that you have no devotion to?
21:15:56  Yes, that is another possibility, I think.
21:16:00  That might be too good for activated abilities...
21:16:10  O, yes, I suppose so
21:16:23  Maybe base it on color identity
21:18:45  Cale: how does that behave if you have such a land and a Forest in play and the opponent has a Plains and an Exotic Orchard in play?
21:18:45  In RDF format, "add one mana of any color that no other land you control could produce" might be something like:  [:add-mana [:choose [:and :color, [:not [:any-could-produce [:and :land, [:controller :you], [:not :this]]]]]]]]
21:20:32  b_jonas: I'm not sure, does Exotic Orchard usually care about predicates that restrict mana abilities?
21:21:21  b_jonas: "Exotic Orchard doesn’t care about any restrictions or riders your opponents’ lands (such as Ancient Ziggurat or Hall of the Bandit Lord) put on the mana they produce. It just cares about colors of mana."
21:21:22  Yes, that is another case. Rule 106.7 mentions Exotic Orchard as an example.
21:21:55  Cale: or more simply, how does it work if you have that land and a Forest and Reflecting Pool in play, and the opponent has four Plains?
21:22:02  But that what you quoted is clear enough from the rules I think, but it is not relevant to the case you have here
21:22:20  ah, okay
21:23:38  ah, right, it does actually care about the state of the cards in play
21:23:56  Lands that produce mana based only on what other lands “could produce” won’t help each other unless some other land allows one of them to actually produce some type of mana. For example, if you control an Exotic Orchard and your opponent controls an Exotic Orchard and a Reflecting Pool, none of those lands would produce mana if their mana abilities were activated. On the other hand, if you control a Forest and an Exotic Orc
21:23:57  hard, and your opponent controls an Exotic Orchard and a Reflecting Pool, then each of those lands can be tapped to produce Green. Your opponent’s Exotic Orchard can produce Green because you control a Forest. Your Exotic Orchard and your opponent’s Reflecting Pool can each produce Green because your opponent’s Exotic Orchard can produce Green.
21:25:24  But yeah, it's an additional weird twist when it's "can't produce"
21:26:30  Yes, all of that you mentioned is what would be done by rule 106.7. But, yes, the "can't produce" can result in no stable result, it seem like.
21:29:54  (I would think that the RDF code I mentioned probably wouldn't compile (if a compiler for it were implemented), or if it does compile, result in an infinite loop or stack overflow.)
21:31:50  There are a few sensible ways that one could clarify what happens, like explicitly disallowing cycles in the determination of whether an ability can produce mana of a given type.
21:32:25  Yes, that was also my idea about how to amend rule 106.7
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21:34:15  I was thinking that if you put this effect into the triggered ability of a Growth-like enchantment, maybe it becomes impossible to make a cycle, but I'm not really sure
21:37:03  Since that triggered ability is not an ability of a land, then it might work. Still, I think the rule should be amended in case
21:38:02  [[Unlambda]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66667&oldid=51370 * B jonas * (+312) /* External resources */ IOCCC winner interpreter
21:39:17  zzo38: right, but it's hard to know whether there is a way to turn it into a land, or have an ability that cares about what mana some non-land permanents could produce, now or in future cards
21:39:46  Yes, I thought of that, which is why the rule should be amended anyways in case
21:40:01  Imprisoned in the Moon can turn an existing permanent into a land
21:40:54  Although it deletes that permanent's abilities, too.
21:41:52  yes, that's why I think that doesn't help
21:44:13  Yes.
21:45:33  (My own opinion is the rules ought to support combinations that do not currently exist.)
21:46:10  I also made up this land card (based on the story of the GURPS I have played):   Sun Town {-} Legendary World Land ;; Vehicles cannot enter the battlefield. ;; At the beginning of each end combat step, end the turn. ;; {T}: Add {C}. ;; {1}, {T}: Add {W}.
21:47:11  Song of the Dryads is another such card
21:48:28  Yes, but rule 305.7 causes its abilities to be deleted.
21:49:51  Still, if something else can grant it an ability, then it can be kept and rule 305.7 only deletes the abilities due to its own text.
21:52:44  Wow, vehicle hate
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2019-10-16:

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01:41:55  http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/interp/zmachine.ps
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02:42:51  Did you try this file?
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07:07:00  `coins
07:07:02  ​loncoin sherecoin qrabcoin etchercoin 2d-refcoin nuourcoin befosbacoin iutcoin vircoin ampatjtcoin subricasmigrcoin bucracoin ethonatadcoin stackscoin toncoin difficecoin disocieucoin melocoin flabcoin fromcoin
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07:25:52  did i invent `coins
07:25:57  i forgot about `coins
07:26:01  `paste bin/coins
07:26:04  https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/coins
07:26:38  apparently yes https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/coins
07:27:39  `paste bin/words
07:27:40  https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/words
07:27:50  `coins irish
07:27:52  Argument "irish" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148. \ coin
07:27:59  `doag bin/coins
07:28:01  4627:2014-05-04  echo "words \\${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re \'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\' | rainwords" > bin/coins \ 4486:2014-02-22  sed -i \'s/--eng-1M --esolangs [$]{1-/${1---eng-1M --esolangs /\' bin/coins \ 4439:2014-02-12  sed -i \'s/20/\\${1-&}/\' bin/coins; coins \ 4413:2014-02-07  printf \'%s\\n\' \'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re \'\\\'\'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\'\\\' | tee bin/coins \ 4412:2014-02
07:28:12  `coins --irish
07:28:15  ​sclóracoin
07:28:20  `doat bin/coins
07:28:22  4411:2014-02-07  echo \'for w in $(words --eng-1M --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done\' > bin/coins && chmod +x bin/coins \ 4412:2014-02-07  echo \'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re \'"\'"\'s/\\>/coin/g\'"\'"\'\' > bin/coins \ 4413:2014-02-07  printf \'%s\\n\' \'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re \'\\\'\'s/( |$)/coin\\1/g\'\\\' | tee bin/coins \ 4439:2014-02-12  sed -i \'s/20/\\${1-&}/\' bin/co
07:28:33  `coins
07:28:35  ​ycoin hebnetonuercoin threactrauncitacoin obstacoin tlacoin ace1.0coin bogcoin walphawcoin suracoin braincoin statecoin filcoin smrincoin furlmcoin sposcoin thenencoin orthated!coin weaklcoin forthinecoin 231coin
07:28:52  obstacoin is a pretty good one
07:29:01  as is bogcoin
07:29:05  `coins
07:29:06  ​murcoin gcoptercoin d1fycoin fancoin weakcoin blacoburgcoin blatorcoin entcoin aireoncoin bencoin dobeling-bookcoin prefcoin famutticoin maicoin 50150.00coin choucoin brahcoin broncoin snmngnomeheadycoin alizercoin
07:29:27  did you also make https://twitter.com/CryptoGenerator
07:29:47  where would it get "50150.00" from?
07:29:56  shachaf: no
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08:10:19   oerjan: as for "hungry", the relevant wisdom is <-- i know, i was briefly considering making a specific wisdom for it, which would naturally mention bell peppers.
08:16:17  Wait, what's this bell pepper nonsense?
08:34:35  `le/rn Hungry//Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split after a famine that got so severe that they had to start editing disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:34:37  Learned 'hungry': Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split after a famine that got so severe that they had to start editing disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:34:43  shachaf: dth ?
08:35:49  oops
08:35:59  `slwd hungry//s,edit,eat,
08:36:03  hungry//Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split after a famine that got so severe that they had to start eating disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:36:14  `? dth
08:36:16  dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
08:36:31  `cat bin/sedlast
08:36:32  files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"
08:37:45  `sedlast s,split,& off,
08:37:47  wisdom/hungry//Hungry is a country in Europe, formerly part of the Ostrich empire. It split off after a famine that got so severe that they had to start eating disgusting things like bell peppers. Absurdly, this became a tradition that continues until the present day.
08:38:51  (disclaimer: i actually like bell peppers, this wisdom is distinctly shachaf-inspired)
08:39:32  I figured.
08:39:35  `? bell pepper
08:39:36  bell pepper? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:40:01  i also like broccoli and brussels sprouts hth
08:40:47  so i guess i don't have that gene i've seen mentioned
08:42:01  There's a gene?
08:42:32  I'm pretty neutral on broccoli and sprouts. Slightly positive on Brussels.
08:45:37  iirc supposedly some people think the plants in that species/genus taste bitter, others don't
08:46:29  I heard about coriander and cilantro.
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09:37:55  shachaf: i see i should link you to our old discussion of quineless languages at https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg (although the counterexamples boil down to what you call "encoding issues")
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11:24:13  int-e: fwiw I'm reading a history of lambda-calculus and it's making several things clearer, for instance, that the parallel reductions technique was actually developed for the purpose of improving on the earliest proofs of confluence of CL :)
11:25:16  nice
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11:51:49  Hmm, "a very minimal API set that only included ~18K APIs".
11:54:36  Slightly abridged from https://github.com/dotnet/announcements/issues/130 ... unfortunately it makes more sense in that context than it should.
11:54:46  oh
11:56:51  (If your goal is to re-implement a massive API to support applications written for that API... then "minimal" gets a radically new perspective... namely, coverage of the API used by existing applications.)
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12:15:46  apparently python 3.8.0 was released two days ago
12:16:31  `python3 -cimport sys;print(sys.version)
12:16:32  3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39)  \ [GCC 6.3.0 20170516]
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16:30:39  ... puns! "libunbound" is a DNS resolver library.
16:43:27  I made fizzy honey
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16:44:21  it was like a fine foam
16:44:34  how'd it taste?
16:45:47  first soda and citric acid were more or less balanced and it was not unlike normal honey, but with some sparkliness, then I added more soda and mixed it all into my tea
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19:34:48  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * DPS2004 *  New user account
19:37:09  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66668&oldid=66646 * DPS2004 * (+191) /* Introductions */ introduced myself :)
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20:00:18  IOCCC is useful, now I have two more articles to read
20:01:01  about Reduceron and a functional pearl on enumerating a regular language given a regex
20:03:50  three now, also Oleg’s “λ to SKI, semantically”
20:38:20  `olist 1182
20:38:21  olist 1182: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:28:43  `olist 1182
21:28:43  olist 1182: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
21:28:53  about time
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21:51:31  More libraries should have names that make the "-lfoo" argument sound good, like libiberty.
22:02:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:15:34  fizzie: and warning options like -Wall and defines with the -D and -U switches?
22:23:17  b_jonas: Double listed!
23:10:15  [[Joke language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66669&oldid=66519 * Vulture001 * (+91) /* General languages */
23:31:37  [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Vulture001 *  uploaded "[[File:Aggressthon logo.png]]": Public domain
23:32:20  [[Aggressthon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66671 * Vulture001 * (+1220) Created page
23:36:20  [[Aggressthon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66672&oldid=66671 * Vulture001 * (+11) 
23:46:43  [[Aggressthon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66673&oldid=66672 * Vulture001 * (+1) /* Instructions */
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2019-10-17:

00:09:10  [[Aggressthon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66674&oldid=66673 * Vulture001 * (+2) 
00:22:04  [[Aggressthon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66675&oldid=66674 * Vulture001 * (+534) 
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12:45:59  [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66676&oldid=66516 * TwilightSparkle * (+13) /* List of candidates */
12:46:36  [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66677&oldid=66559 * TwilightSparkle * (+13) /* Turing-Completeness */
13:35:30  [[Talk:Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66678&oldid=43204 * A * (+408) 
13:57:26  [[1+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66679&oldid=66677 * TwilightSparkle * (+30) /* Quine */
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14:25:22  hello
14:26:18  can I get some feedback on a language im working on?
14:27:02  stranger things have happened
14:27:26  wait are you replying to me?
14:27:42  yes.
14:28:03  But I'm trying not to promise anything.
14:28:06  aigt gonna paste in what I have so far
14:28:10  To declare a variable named foo with the value of 2:
14:28:12  gonna give you up  --end
14:28:22  RickRoll based language
14:29:18  Sounds painful. :)
14:30:54  awesome
14:31:08  though tbh we usually care more about the semantics than the syntax
14:31:30  im sorta basing it on Esketit
14:34:21  https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esketit
14:35:59  Hmm, cute, but it seems rather limited.
14:37:28  im kinda stuck on things to add
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14:40:27  the standard mix for a programming language seems to be: something loopy, something conditional, something arithmetic, something noisy (output), something perceptive (input), shake and pour.
14:41:08  of course we'll still call the result boring.
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14:47:12  shit sorry the internet went out
14:47:41  but yeah ill think something up for input
14:49:03  ah got something
14:49:24  your heart's been aching but you're too shy to say (prompt goes here)
14:53:42  int-e: we also need something remembery
14:54:41  variables?
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15:51:59  [[NeverGonna]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66680 * DPS2004 * (+2167) finished all the things!
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15:53:42  [[NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66681&oldid=66680 * DPS2004 * (+24) lol oops forgot to tag it as a language
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15:55:57  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66682&oldid=66641 * DPS2004 * (+17) /* N */ added NeverGonna
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16:36:07  Oleg’s article: “We present another pearl of the translation from lambda-terms to SKI combinators and show off its facets.”
16:36:07  a pearl with facets… omg it have to be multidimensional and not precisely a sphere, or something
16:36:51  pearls and facets *are* an odd mix.
16:37:15  maybe it’s a pearl with a glittery aluminium scales inside, which will do as facets?
16:37:50  what if i edited never gonna give you up in audacity so rick astley sings the fizzbuzz code
16:38:16  DPS2004: go ahead, we'll only hate you for it. forever.
16:38:48  could Rick Astley sing 1000 first digits of pi instead
16:39:16  or better, denominators of its representation as a continued fraction
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16:42:22  John Oliver did a rickroll recently. I was not amused :)
16:43:28  Fortunately I forgot everything else about the episode so I can't find it now.
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16:45:16  [[BF instruction minimalization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66683&oldid=66382 * Palaiologos * (+470) 
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17:02:41  [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66684&oldid=66683 * Palaiologos * (-7) Golf the code down.
17:05:34  [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66685&oldid=66684 * Palaiologos * (-2) Golf down one byte.
17:05:52  I'm just having fun, don'
17:05:57  t mention me
17:06:35  kspalaiologos: esowiki is a bot.
17:07:42  sure, I know
17:08:09  I haven't been talking to him, but rather finding excuses for spamming the channel
17:13:15  Hrm, https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Aggressthon_logo.png seems problematic (cf. https://www.python.org/community/logos/)
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17:21:27  int-e: Hmm, I think that's a little subtle. We don't really have a policy on trademarks (CC0 explicitly calls them out of scope), and I don't think the Python page is super-clear about the copyright status of the work, it only talks about the trademark aspect.
17:21:31  It probably does fail the PSF Trademark Usage Policy section on "do not want these trademarks to be used to refer to any other programming language".
17:22:41  (And the section on derived logos.)
17:24:26  how do I make rick astley say "Zero"
17:24:33  what words can I chop up to make that
17:25:00  this is very important
17:25:53  FOUND IT
17:26:01  I can cut up "
17:26:06  "rules"
17:26:16  to get the Z
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17:30:38  someone wanted my mythical chess engine
17:30:50  it's somewhere on my github
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17:31:57  by the way, what is sub-lime?
17:32:31 -!- DPS2004 has joined.
17:32:46  ugh why do I keep on getting dc'd
17:34:09  DPS2004: Freenode blames your end: DPS2004 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds], DPS2004 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:34:22  wack
17:42:16  . o O ( behold the new language for traquill and methodical evaluation, OCalm )
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17:44:57  https://vocaroo.com/i/s06nrPmzi89K I know the "zero" is a little rough, but how does this sound?
17:45:58  I have no idea what he's saying
17:46:15  i just figured zero at the end tho
17:47:22  https://esolangs.org/wiki/NeverGonna Im trying to get him to sing the fizzbuzz
17:47:30  at the bottom
17:47:55  oh gosh
17:47:59  damn it man xD
17:48:20  I think one needs really good editing skills
17:48:33  to make the everything sound like a single sentence
17:48:49  you might want to extract single phonems from his songs and tune them to fixed frequency
17:49:04  then dump it into tracker
17:49:17  no idea how to do that lol
17:49:19  and you're pretty much all set
17:49:28  i think im gonna keep on going in audacity
17:49:34  just look at the phonetical description of what hes singing
17:49:45  extract a sample of him singing a single phone,m
17:49:59  then tune all of these to same tone using audacity
17:50:12  then use a tracker or god's beloved audacity
17:50:16  to glue them together
17:50:30  however, I can't quite tell how good will the outcome be
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20:09:38  [[99 bottles of beer]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66686&oldid=61816 * B jonas * (+86) /* External resources */
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21:22:47  @let luby = map snd $ iterate (\(u,v) -> if u .&. (-u) == v then (u+1,1) else (u,v*2)) (1,1)
21:22:49   Defined.
21:22:50  > luby
21:22:52   [1,1,2,1,1,2,4,1,1,2,1,1,2,4,8,1,1,2,1,1,2,4,1,1,2,1,1,2,4,8,16,1,1,2,1,1,2,...
21:28:11  http://oeis.org/A182105
21:29:15  "Number of elements merged by bottom-up merge sort"? I guess.
21:31:09  shachaf: there may be other interpretations than that title
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2019-10-18:

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04:14:17  fungot: Who created the 'or' language?
04:14:18  A55: at one point.) i'll try to look at these proofs you'll see that the number of buckets you use to read pdfs which preview/ acroread can't deal with the case that sys-readdir always have "."
04:14:59  fungot:Fnordy morning to you
04:15:00  A55: i guess we should take haskell and give it a crack. i love it.) you should get some headphones chosen, sound maybe will be fnord. they're comfortable, and they refused to sense any opportunity for the opposite party since that might have something other fun esolang competition
04:15:36  Weird. I can't get fungot to answer https://esolangs.org/wiki/Or related questions.
04:15:36  A55: fortunately the doctors at the university of copenhagen ( datalogisk institutut k?benhavns universitet) server box with a null
04:16:05  fungot:I know the language.
04:16:05  A55: i could be wrong
04:16:28  fungot:Shall I correct you?
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04:17:37  fungot: Shall I correct you?
04:18:18  fungot: Shall I teach you?
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07:05:59  `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/
07:06:01  bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/: b_jonas
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10:55:09  noooo! fungot, come back!
11:05:09  huh
11:10:20  Hm.
11:10:27  What's that all about.
11:11:56  Looks like it's about the internet at home.
11:12:44  My ISP has a "dashboard", but it's literally just a rounded rectangle on the account management page which says "Your Service status is: (orb)", where the orb is either red or green. Right now it's red.
11:13:53  Well, okay, there's also a hover tooltip box saying "we're sorry for the disruption" and "our engineers are currently investigating the cause and will work to restore connectivity as soon as possible".
11:14:16  fizzie: is it a dashboard that you can view from other internet connections, or only from yours?
11:14:23  so a bit like the "Inside Out" baby stage... just minus the button?
11:14:58  I've never seen the tooltip say anything else, and it always says that within seconds of the connection going down, so I don't think it actually means anything in particular except that their monitoring has realized it's down.
11:15:27  wib_jonas: I can view it from anywhere by logging in to the same wobsite where you manage billing and that sort of stuff.
11:15:37  It's vitally important to reduce the number of calls for customer support.
11:18:11  fizzie: in that case they probably also have access to the same dashboard, and by just you loading it, their server tells their engineers that your connection is down
11:19:14  It's on the page you get immediately after logging in, so I don't think they can quite infer it's down just from me opening that page.
11:19:39  Although realistically that'd have about 98% accuracy in practice.
11:20:44  My previous ISP had a read-only view into what looked like their actual issue tracker, which was nice. Although it was mostly just copies of BT's outages, because it was a DSL thing over BT's network.
11:36:22  fizzie: not from just opening the page, obviously. but their server knows whether the page tells you it's up or down
11:38:51  wib_jonas: you mean loading the page might act as a thumbs up on the corresponding ticket?
11:40:03  int-e: loading the page tells them that someone cares about the internet being down on that connection. many of their users won't care, because they're sleeping or something. they might prioritize customers who look at the dashboard.
11:40:46  I guess it's possible.
11:41:29  "you have services running at home but aren't there and awake 24/7? too bad"
11:42:00  [[FizzBuzz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66687&oldid=57199 * B jonas * (+90) Rosetta Code
11:42:21  myname: obviously the priority only matters when they can't fix all their bugs :-)
11:45:08  or want to sleep
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11:59:12  [[Fibonacci sequence]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66688&oldid=18125 * B jonas * (+164) Rosetta Code
12:00:13  [[Hello, world!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66689&oldid=50490 * B jonas * (+72) Rosetta Code
12:01:31  [[Quine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66690&oldid=60899 * B jonas * (+60) Rosetta Code
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13:01:27  While researching various things related to "equational logic" I have discovered that there is also "inequational logic". But not many people use this term. I suspect this is because inequational logic has a much better-known name, which is "term rewriting".
13:01:57  At least, I am at a loss to see any essential difference between inequational logic and term rewriting.
13:05:10  argh... this thing at work is terribly inconsistent. I'll have to fix it by redoing the whole thing, for which I have to figure out what the correct settings is
13:06:40  cpressey: hmm, in principle an inequational logic could go further (it could distinguish between covariant, contravariant, and ambiguous arguments of functions, for example)
13:07:02  I'm frustrated about thsi stuff
13:07:52  (I'm just interepreting the term as I'd read it... I have never encountered it in the term rewriting context. Term rewriting people use things like (weakly) monotone algebras that orient rules, in termination proofs for example.)
13:13:02  int-e: Say you had a term rewriting system, and you wanted to describe its semantics as a set of axioms. You'd have ones like "If a rewites to b, then (ca) rewrites to (cb)", and "If a rewrites to b, and b rewrites to c, then a rewrites to c"... these are the same axioms that get listed when describing an inequational logic.
13:13:40  There might be small differences between the two concepts, sure.
13:17:28  cpressey: I'm just saying that given the term "inequaltional logic" you could do more. If a >= b then f(a) >= f(b) but g(b) >= g(a).
13:17:40  cpressey: so you could have monotonic and antimonotonic functions.
13:18:15  cpressey: But it appears that this isn't done and then it's indeed just another name for term rewriting.
13:25:25  int-e: I think I follow what you're saying -- you can start with an inequational logic, then add axioms that allow it to say more than you could say with a TRS, yet don't interfere with its purpose as an inequational logic?
13:26:47  I'd agree with that but I think I'm not thinking quite that far ahead yet :)
13:28:48  cpressey: the downside would be that context matters... you couldn't replace any subterm by a smaller one anymore.
13:29:04  So it'd be heading in a different direction from rewriting.
13:29:36  Anyway. This happens when I encounter a new term... I first try to fill it with content myself.
13:29:58  I'm wrong 80% of the time :P
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13:34:00  Well, I'm fairly excited about it from the meta-logical angle. You can use term rewriting to derive proofs of theorems under some theory, and in inequational logic you have a theory of term rewriting.
13:34:54  In short it seems to confirm my feeling that a non-deterministic term rewriting language is sufficient for writing machine-checkable proofs in.
13:37:59  isn't that somewhat true for all models of computation :)
13:39:31  I’m disappointed in what was going on in https://ai.stackexchange.com/questions/15730/can-digital-computers-understand-infinity
13:39:31  many noted layman’s “understand” is an ambiguous non-notion but a few if at all noted the same about layman’s “infinity”. When talking about a specific “infinity” instance, things should get way clearer. There would be no denying some commenters are antropocentric, or should I say psyche-centric, at its worst
13:39:51  very very disappointed. Say you agree with me please
13:40:11  or even better don’t read that thing at all, it’s not that good
13:43:21  "We can think, principally, and "understand" infinitely many numbers that are displayed on the screen."  must be a pretty big screen
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13:48:28  Hey, it's *not* always the same placeholder text. Now it says: "We're sorry to advise that we're experiencing a technical issue which has resulted in a temporary loss of broadband services to your building." I guess that's a good sign.
13:49:00  `unidecode 🙌😈🐰
13:49:01  ​[U+1F64C PERSON RAISING BOTH HANDS IN CELEBRATION] [U+1F608 SMILING FACE WITH HORNS] [U+1F430 RABBIT FACE]
13:49:41  all those prevalent chinese rooms in there too. I’d say popular understanding of a human mental capability is illusional and mostly based on accounts of introspection, not normal science, and what would chinese argumentists say if their chinese room would argue that it has introspection and it introspected that it e. g. understands and it’s unfair to deny that, and any human they meet is indistinguishable from that, so how do they c
13:49:41  hoose to believe or not? Antropocentrically 
13:51:21  "understanding" seems to be a deeply anthropomorphic concept to me.
13:52:12  maybe "can computers learn to solve problems involving infinity"?
13:52:47  Still vague, but at least it's moving closer to something testable.
13:52:55  (didn't read the stackexchange link)
13:53:48  int-e: not that it isn’t, that had been tried to be clarified in various ways, but I’m at a loss to understand why wasn’t that done for “infinity”, as it is a topic of the question
13:54:17 * int-e shrugs.
13:54:40  there was a link to some SO question about formalizing infinity, and I bet there were all kinds of infinities math has to offer, but I don’t think many commenters followed through with reading that
13:54:42  arseniiv: You're not wrong!
13:55:09  int-e: thank you :)
13:55:29  as I tend to be wrong while heated
13:55:31  But I'd also focus on "undertanding" first. :)
13:55:42  yes, that was done too
13:58:04  on a tangent, I’m slightly sad about antropocenteredness, cause it seems to be a reason of many bitter misunderstandings, as humans are modeled being more infailible that they are
13:59:23  it’s constructive to try to understand flaws in our hardware but it’s almost not being done, not even basics at schools (I presume, worldwide), not some other stuff in social media etc.
13:59:57  okay many know about logical fallacies but that’s not too many and that’s not enough I think
14:01:29  by “not being done”, I mean not trying to discover them, that’s of course almost at its best now, as neurosciences go forward very fast, but trying to make general public aware
14:01:33  I think there's a difference between anthropocentric thinking (I'm fine with that, really... we are humans after all and spend a lot of time with ourselves and other people) and ascribing super-Turing powers to humans :P
14:02:32  The latter is a sort of mystification that I don't approve of.
14:03:14  as many of the flaws are quite good at not being noticed because of our filling-in gaps, another bittersweet architecture choice of evolution
14:03:40  int-e: some antropocentrism is normal, I agree, but it seems there is a line somewhere
14:03:58  maybe in what is explicit and what is implicit
14:04:41  if one is aware that she thinks antropocentrically, and why it needs to be so, it’s okay
14:05:20  but in the most part that’s all implicit, deep waters of unconscious patterns or something
14:05:36  and the power of rationalizing that into some nonsense
14:08:43  BTW that Oleg’s paper was interesting
14:09:11  rationalization is the ultimate AI problem
14:09:44  I can’t say I fully understand (eek) it but it seems nice (and maybe even useful to me in the future?)
14:11:16  “The Reduceron reconfigured and re-evaluated” had shown me some useful things too if I’d wish to design a virtual machine for something near-functional
14:12:15  now there’s only one left, about writing in Haskell enumeration of a regex’s language through FSAs
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14:22:11  fizzie: they added randomness to the placeholder text? nice.
14:33:55  Hm, I wonder if you can have OpenSSH require two public keys instead of just one.
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14:37:21  do you think its possible to write a quine in NeverGonna?
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14:44:57  fizzie: two public keys? what do you mean?
14:45:49  fizzie: do you mean require that the user who logs in has the matching private key for _one_ of two public keys, because if so, you can do that, just put multiple keys (one per line) in the file that contains the public keys
14:48:01  No, I was thinking the user who logs in would need to have matching private keys for two different public keys.
14:48:23  I think that's unlikely to be a thing.
14:48:32  that might be trickier, yse
14:49:17  is there even such a thing in the SSL protocol that a client supports? how do I tell the client config to use two keys?
14:49:31  I think you can provide multiple identities, yes.
14:49:47  Definitely a SSH agent can hold multiple keys in memory, and will offer to use all of them when signing.
14:50:05  But it might be that the details of the protocol prevent you from actually performing authentication with more than one.
14:50:43  I don't know how that works, I've always just put one explicit filename for each host in my client config file
14:50:52  one explicit private key filename that is
14:51:00  but possibly different filenames for different hosts
14:51:20  I know you can (nowadays) configure OpenSSH to require multiple authentication *methods* (as in, "public key and password" e.g.), but that probably doesn't apply to multiple keys.
14:52:59  fizzie: multiple methods as in allow connections only from certain hosts but still ask for a key, sure
14:53:15  public key and password is alternative, you can log in via either one
14:53:25  it's the client's choice then
14:53:30  No, you can require both.
14:53:36  you can? ok
14:53:38  Via the "AuthenticationMethods" option.
14:53:54  "For example, "publickey,password publickey,keyboard-interactive" would require the user to complete public key authentication, followed by or more comma-separated lists of authentication method names, or by the single string any to indicate the default behaviour of accepting any single authentication method."
14:54:07  I didn't know this earlier either, only learned about it now.
14:54:20  ...
14:54:25  I messed up that copy-paste.
14:54:37  "For example, "publickey,password publickey,keyboard-interactive" would require the user to complete public key authentication, followed by either password or keyboard interactive authentication."
14:54:41  Lost track on which line I was on.
14:55:52  The context for this train of thought is, Android has a "secure hardware" thingamajick for keeping RSA and EC keys in, and asking the hardware to sign them. There's an SSH agent implementation that hooks that and allows secure hardware keys to be used as SSH keys -- https://github.com/aeolwyr/tergent -- but there's no way to attach a passphrase to that, the keys get unlocked when you unlock the device.
14:56:11  I was thinking it might be reasonable to have both a key like that + a separate passphrase-protected private key, if you wanted to require more from SSH authentication than from in general unlocking the phone. Just because fingerprints are so convenient.
14:56:17  But in retrospect maybe that's not really much of a security benefit over just having a single passphrase-protected public key stored in a regular file.
15:02:29  fizzie: could you just handle that on client-side, by encoding the second private key not by your passphrase, but by a tuple of your passphrase and something secret derived from the device key?
15:06:31  AFAIK, the only things I can ask the hardware to do is to sign something or to verify a signature, using the protected private key. So it's not entirely obvious how to use that for protecting the second private key.
15:07:31  fizzie: hmm, that's trickier
15:09:13  I guess technically I could use the signature of my passphrase as the "something secret derived from the device key"? At least that works in the scenario where someone has the (second) private key file, and knows my passphrase.
15:09:47  OTOH, it would probably involve writing some code, I don't know if I want to go that far.
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15:23:13  fizzie: I don't think that's a good idea
15:23:22  cryptographically that is
15:24:23  ask other people here who understand this crypto stuff though
15:31:00  It's obviously not a good idea in the sense that knowing the passphrase and that one signature would be sufficient to decode the second private key file, as opposed to something where you would actually need to have control over the first private key and show you can sign anything with it. But it's not clear how to do that on the client side.
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17:10:03  Yay, it's back.
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17:33:17  woot
17:33:19  fungot: welcome
17:33:20  kmc: to avoid cgi. anything beyond that becomes unmanageable to an alarming degree. it happens to work in
17:34:34  hi fungot
17:34:34  b_jonas: because the second a symbol and a tarpit, though. he's not back for real, l is for life and still not overflow any buffers will be flushed anyway.
17:34:56  well that's poetic
17:35:05  fungot: Now, is that CGI as in Common Gateway Interface, or as in computer-generated imagery, or something else? 
17:35:05  fizzie: but the possibility of using exceptions in another implementation
17:35:14  so you're not back for real?
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17:47:49  fungot: we like you
17:47:49  pikhq: well there is real work to be done by someone else?"
18:50:18  [ 2 3!8
18:50:19  b_jonas: 28 56
18:50:20  [ +/2 3!8
18:50:21  b_jonas: 84
18:51:41  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Someone else *  New user account
19:14:04  zzo38: you know what I'd like in a browser? make the stop button terminate all network connections that the current tab initiates, including the ones that client-side scripts do. 
19:15:36  [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66691&oldid=66668 * Someone else * (+317) 
19:35:15  [[A?!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66692 * Someone else * (+792) Created page with "A?! is a minimalistic programming language.  All variables have alphanumeric names and boolean values and there are only 6 commands:  A! - Negates the value of variable named..."
19:37:13  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66693&oldid=66692 * Someone else * (+60) 
19:38:45  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66694&oldid=66693 * Someone else * (+16) 
19:41:54  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66695&oldid=66694 * Someone else * (+62) 
19:50:57  hmm... says "There is a kind of beauty in simplicity and turing-completeness." to get our hopes up, then posts one of these languages that are not turing-complete, nor even missing turing-completeness in some interesting way
19:57:22  appreciates art. not an artist.
19:58:23 -!- imode1 has joined.
19:58:29  int-e: "I am interested in esolangs and I find it to be a lot of fun to try and create simple and elegant languages."
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19:58:43  yeah, I guess they do say "try"
19:58:44 -!- imode1 has changed nick to imode.
19:58:46  is there a page on esolangs that says the different kinds of langs? by some category?
19:59:29  Yes there is categories in esolang wiki
20:05:56  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66696&oldid=66695 * Someone else * (+68) 
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20:19:50  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66697&oldid=66696 * Someone else * (+234) 
20:20:11  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66698&oldid=66697 * Someone else * (+2) 
20:20:38  [[A?!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66699&oldid=66698 * Someone else * (+9) 
20:23:34  this looks like a cute book: https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1184961738518814720/pu/img/vJw7QjCDvI09mCuw.jpg
20:26:37  from https://mobile.twitter.com/JanelleCShane/status/1184951446212530178 ... oh there are videos, actually
20:27:17  (silly)
22:10:26  `5 w
22:10:28  1/1:darknet//The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services. Said services are paid for in plant roots and earthworms. \ uwe boll//Uwe Boll is the undefined behavior of cinematography. \ spämmer//Spämmers are advertisers of Spämmi, the delicious Finnish fish product. \ ĥäŝkéll//ĥäŝkéll is not what you were looking for. Try again. \ piet//Piet is a really colourful programming lang
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22:41:48  b_jonas: I agree; I want the stop function to stop everything.
22:42:34  Everything?
22:59:52  Do you know what generation VIII stuff will be relevant for Pokemon mahjong?

2019-10-19:

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02:15:14  `5 w
02:15:16  1/2:`1//`1  is equivalent to `` , except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. \ dragon//Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels. \ dinosaur//Dinosaurs are 
02:15:24  `? piet
02:15:26  ​Piet is a really colourful programming language.
02:15:48  oerjan: That's interesting. Why did it get truncated above without a second page?
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05:06:10  They are adding support for generated columns into SQLite. That doesn't seem so useful to me, unless that feature can be used with virtual tables.
05:06:27  (Another feature that doesn't seems so useful to me is the EXCLUDE clause for window functions.)
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05:28:22  I invented a card game called "Curse of Scotland", with four players, either with or without teams. Give 13 cards to each player, and then whoever holds the nine of diamonds must reveal it so that everyone knows who holds it. He may either keep it, or give it to another player and ask for a card in exchange; he can specify the suit but not the rank of that card. Initially there is no trumps.
05:30:20  Tricks are then played as in whist, but you cannot play the nine of diamonds unless it is the only card you have or if you already have a trick (if you are required to play a diamond but have only the nine of diamonds and are not allowed to play it, then you must ignore the requirement to follow suit).
05:31:47  Once the nine of diamonds is won in a trick, then all players other than the player who won that trick scores one point per trick, and the player who won the trick with the nine of diamonds scores nothing. And then, reset trick counts to zero, gather all cards already played and redistribute them to all players.
05:32:56  Now the player who won the nine of diamonds, after examining his own cards, selects a new trump suit, or no trumps; it is not allowed to be the same as it just was. And then do the same with the nine of diamonds as at the start of the game, and the trump namer leads to the next trick.
05:33:59  (Note that many times, the players will keep many of the cards they were initially dealt while the other cards get mixed up and redistributed.)
05:36:56  this sounds pretty similar to hearts, with the queen of spades
05:37:24  though the knowledge of who has the important card isn't in hearts
05:38:04  redistribution of cards could get... interesting
05:42:29  Some other clarifications: If you ask a card of a suit that they have none of, then they tell you and you must ask for a different suit. If you decide to keep the nine of diamonds, then you must name a suit that you have at least one card of (not counting the nine of diamonds); if teams are played, you might try to communicate information to your partner.
05:43:12  If teams are being played, only the tricks won by the player who has won the nine of diamonds don't count; his partner's tricks still do count toward the team's score.
05:50:10  Hooloovo0: I am not so sure that it is similar to hearts, although hearts is also played with each player thirteen cards and then playing tricks similar to whist, but with no trumps. In hearts, the hearts also count, but tricks not containing hearts or the queen of spades, do not count any points.
05:59:49  a lot of the strategy in hearts, while keeping score, is to not get stuck with the queen
06:00:15  though I agree that it is a very different game with trumps
06:08:52  Yes, that is true (unless you try to collect all of the hearts and queen of spades). (Also, I have seen a variant of scoring in hearts where the queen of spades is worth six instead of thirteen.)
06:10:47  six points seems interesting since it makes the game less about the queen and more about the hearts
06:11:27  I'll definitely suggest that next time I play hearts
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06:41:19  [[Talk:Or]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66700&oldid=66678 * JonoCode9374 * (+287) 
06:47:53  [[Talk:Or]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66701&oldid=66700 * JonoCode9374 * (+334) 
06:48:24  [[Talk:Or]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66702&oldid=66701 * JonoCode9374 * (+128) I forgot my signature
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10:00:56  wait what? how does that work?
10:02:00  ah I see
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14:56:38  `ftoc 98.6
14:56:39  98.60°F = 37.00°C
15:35:58  `perl -eprint(175 * ($lb = 0.4536))
15:35:59  79.38
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18:23:12  I'm working on solving Project Euler challenges in Brainfuck
18:23:13  and I gotta say
18:23:17  it's quite amusing
18:29:56  lol
18:29:57  nice
18:31:22  why?
18:31:27  why in brainfuck?
18:31:41  that sounds terrible
18:31:52  b_jonas: um, you realize what channel you're in?
18:34:15  btw
18:34:19  if somebody feels brave enough
18:34:28  for challenge #4, please send me a PR
18:34:28  https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/euler
18:34:59  6 already done, we're really close to 600!
18:36:30  b_jonas: itym insane
18:36:43  or possibly terrifying
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19:26:26  stereolist
19:26:33  @quote stereo
19:26:33  geheimdienst says: data Stereoloid = BanachTyvski | CoBanachTyvski
19:26:37  huh
19:26:40  @quote stereo
19:26:40  geheimdienst says: data Stereoloid = BanachTyvski | CoBanachTyvski
19:26:59  someone may have been deleting
19:27:09  @quote ent.stereo
19:27:09  No quotes match. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
19:27:39  @quote ste.eo
19:27:39  geheimdienst says: data Stereoloid = BanachTyvski | CoBanachTyvski
19:45:21   by the way, what is sub-lime? <-- a pun on the esolang wiki logo that got way out of hand a few years ago
19:46:09  (i put it in the channel welcome message, then someone started overdoing it)
19:47:10  this bot is blowing my mind
19:47:12  what have you just done
19:48:33  who, me?
19:48:40  @quote fugue
19:48:40  monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
19:48:47  ah
19:49:02  oerjan: we have this upgrade of Cale's classical stereo quote
19:49:04  that's a similar quote to the one i tried to look up, yes
19:49:27  "Welcome to #haskell where your questions are answered in majestic stereo."
19:49:34  Was the original.
19:49:50  i couldn't remember the majestic
19:49:50  (probably with a comma in the appropriate place)
19:51:01  In unrelated news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVmp0uGtShk is painful to watch.
19:51:54  (I kept focusing on the pinky finger.)
19:53:22 * oerjan decides to try not watching it
19:54:58  context (less painful): https://mobile.twitter.com/LakeBrenden/status/1184967457305432066
19:57:12  i was about to shout at you for linking the mobile version, but frankly it looks way less annoying than the usual
19:58:49  hi oerjan
19:59:25  hichaf
20:00:16  oerjan: The funny thing is that I'm on a desktop PC. But without JS, Twitter redirects me to the mobile version. (I'd have to disable