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03:42:15 <esowiki> [[Omam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66990&oldid=53229 * Arcorann * (+96)
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07:27:39 <int-e> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1572800 ... who thought this was a good idea? With this change I was never sure whether an underlined blue a,b was a single link or two links... fortunately, there's a switch.
07:34:17 <int-e> (This hardly comes up... I'm just rationalizing my dislike for that particular change.)
07:37:55 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-10-28.html#llb
07:38:00 <b_jonas> I just don't like the way it looks
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07:49:36 <int-e> There is something to my complaint when you turn it around... to my brain, a break in the underline signifies the end of a link. (And links are the most common reason for underlined text in my browsing experience.)
07:52:08 <int-e> Oh and I particularly dislike the handling of underlined 'g's, where none of the glyph is underlined anymore.
07:52:38 <int-e> (the same is true for the aforementioned ',')
08:15:44 <b_jonas> Magic: the Gathering is so old that it predates Pokémon. That seems so weird. I find it hard to imagine a world that has Magic: the Gathering but not Pokemon. Pokemon just seems more fundamental.
08:18:55 <int-e> Heh. For all I know Pokemon is completely made up.
08:21:17 <b_jonas> Sure it is, but like having it as video games and story. Classical greek mythology is probably also completely made up, but it's hard to imagine our world (I'm saying this as a Europe-centric guy) without, because there's just so much heritage from it.
08:22:25 <int-e> I mean I've never seen the video games nor the animated series... all I really have are second-hand stories.
08:22:37 <int-e> And I'm seriously wondering how that happened.
08:23:06 <b_jonas> you've never seen the video games? any of them?
08:23:19 <int-e> I guess completely avoiding gaming consoles has a lot to do with it.
08:23:25 <b_jonas> I mean, you don't have to see any specific one, because they're all rather similar
08:23:35 <int-e> yes, I've never seen any of them
08:23:58 <b_jonas> int-e: how about the collectible card game? that of course is later than M:tG
08:24:41 <int-e> I've played M:tG but only with other peoples' decks.
08:27:05 <b_jonas> I guess many people have a huge genre that they have mostly avoided. DMM claims that it's video games in general, but I'm not entirely sure of it since he used to claim that he hasn't read Discworld. For me it's anime and manga.
08:28:25 <b_jonas> I haven't played too much on consoles either, except for the Game Boy, but have played a little, but I'm somewhat familiar with the more popular Nintendo games through videos on the internet now.
08:28:37 <b_jonas> I sort of wonder if I should get into them, in the nostalgic way that is, old games only.
08:29:54 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure I don't want to play new video games, but the old ones are old enough that there's enough information about them that's not just recent hype so I can tell which games are worth to play.
08:30:02 <int-e> "should" - no. ;-)
08:31:25 <b_jonas> int-e: well, it's not something that I have to decide right now
08:31:36 <b_jonas> and there are also old PC games that I should play more
08:32:43 <int-e> but maybe there are too many new games for that
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11:11:33 <wib_jonas> You know how you can indicate dismissal of modern music with the joking question "have they started already or are they just tuning their instruments?"
11:11:51 <wib_jonas> I found out that this can apply not only to modern music.
11:13:32 <wib_jonas> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/?curid=18594726 is the digitization of a vintage music recording from 1889, supposedly of Brahms playing the 1st piece of Hungarian Dances on a piano.
11:14:05 <wib_jonas> Without the description, I couldn't tell that this is supposed to be a rendition of Hungarian Dances.
11:15:04 <wib_jonas> I'm not sure if I could even tell that it's on a piano, because it sounds like a clavicord through that recording.
11:16:21 <ais523_> there's at least one classical piece which wrote the sound of tuning the instruments into the score
11:17:02 <ais523_> I can't remember, IIRC fairly old though
11:17:17 <myname> isn't that quite common for string instruments?
11:17:34 <myname> like, adjusting the string-length in-sound
11:19:16 <wib_jonas> Admittedly since I can tell that it's supposed to be a clavicord, as opposed to a band with stringed or wind instruments, the tuning question isn't quite accurate.
11:20:27 <wib_jonas> Pianos are tuned in advance, whereas most other stringed instruments are tuned on site before the concert.
11:21:02 <wib_jonas> Probably because the piano takes the longest to tune, and you can afford not to tune one instrument.
11:21:23 <wib_jonas> (That doesn't solve what you do with pieces for two pianos, which do exists, but are rare.)
11:21:34 <myname> i also am wondering how one would write out what exactly 2cellos are doing sometimes. like, just smashing the bow onto the strings
11:22:58 <wib_jonas> I can't complain of course, there are good quality recordings of performances of the Hungarian Dances available as well.
11:23:11 <wib_jonas> And that recording has the excuse that it's really old.
11:26:17 <wib_jonas> This morning on the tram, I heard a man talk in Swedish but with a very strong Hungarian accent. That's the first time I heard such a thing.
11:26:49 <wib_jonas> I've heard sevearl people speak English in a strong Hungarian accent, but the same thing in Swedish was new.
11:28:14 <wib_jonas> I know it's Swedish rather than Norwegian or Danish mostly because he said "två" rather than "to"
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11:40:46 <esowiki> [[The Program Is Mostly Ignored]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66991&oldid=66982 * Ais523 non-admin * (+4141) a modified version that 2-Echo Tag can implement
11:42:13 <esowiki> [[Echo Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66992&oldid=66980 * Ais523 non-admin * (-2) /* Computational class */ link to TPIMI
11:42:32 <esowiki> [[Echo Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66993&oldid=66992 * Ais523 non-admin * (+36) /* See also */ link to TPIMI
11:43:26 <ais523_> in case anyone isn't following esowiki, it turns out that 2-Echo Tag can also implement (a modified version of) The Program Is Mostly Ignored
11:44:22 <ais523_> although the resulting implementation is likely to be very slow, because in order to get an increase in the queue length (required for unbounded memory), you have to grow it by a factor of more than 48 by repeatedly multiplying by 1¼
11:44:41 <ais523_> and the code needed to mediate that probably has length proportional to 2 to the power of the number of steps
11:45:50 <ais523_> (the reason it's likely TC is that the mediating code has a length depending only on the number of multiplications, not on the size of the portion of the queue it's extending, so by creating a sufficiently long queue portion to extend you can make the mediating code small by comparison)
11:46:00 <wib_jonas> ais523: is it only double-exponential, or triple-exponential?
11:46:33 <ais523_> wib_jonas: in the parameter that people care about, i.e. how fast the resulting program runs relative to the program you're compiling, I think it's actually linear
11:46:52 <ais523_> the constant factor is exponential in the size of the program, though (I think only singly-exponential though)
11:47:44 <ais523_> so if you have a program of size s that runs in t steps, after you compile it, you end up with something of size O(s*2**s) that runs in O(t*s*2**s) steps
11:48:01 <ais523_> I think, I might be a bit off on the complexities, given that I'm trying to calculate them in my head and don't have a concrete TCness construction yet
11:48:31 <ais523_> also, the constant factor hidden by the big-O notation is likely over a billion
11:48:53 <ais523_> but hey, this is still technically polynomial time :-P
12:00:01 <esowiki> [[The Program Is Mostly Ignored]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66994&oldid=66991 * Ais523 non-admin * (+14) /* Implementation of the modified version in 2-Echo Tag */ don't underscore k/q, they're defined as sets of four bits, rather than as a single bit that gets repeated
12:00:06 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66995&oldid=66067 * YamTokTpaFa * (+118) /* pxemi.7z */
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13:00:05 <ais523_> <b_jonas> I'm quite sure I don't want to play new video games, but the old ones are old enough that there's enough information about them that's not just recent hype so I can tell which games are worth to play. ← I have a similar policy nowadays, I generally only buy games if I'm very familiar with them already and know they're good
13:00:53 <myname> how long do you wait to play rimworld?
13:01:02 <ais523_> one problem with this policy is that the games are often hard to obtain as a consequence; typically the prices are very low but the supply is also very low, and I don't like going to online auction sites or the like
13:01:45 <ais523_> (I've tried to increase the probability by checking out the local second-hand computer game shops whenever I visit a new area; normally there's nothing there I want, but sometimes there's something worth buying, e.g. that's how I purchased my copy of Sonic Advance 3)
13:02:08 <wib_jonas> ais523: for classic nintendo carts, the supply is decent and the prices aren't too high. for old DOS games by Id, there's usually no supply, so the ones that aren't freeware you can't legally buy at all, but you can easily obtain a copy.
13:02:28 <ais523_> well, I don't pirate computer games
13:02:35 <ais523_> so I'm mostly keeping to console games and free PC games
13:02:42 <ais523_> (paid PC games tend to have issues with DRM anyway)
13:03:04 <ais523_> there are a few very good PC games that I purchased (most notably Neverwinter Nights), though
13:03:52 <wib_jonas> ais523: in this case I'm talking about Commander Keen 2 and 3. those are impossible to buy, and I intend to play them. I want to do a 100% completion for CK3 (I've never beaten the boss, but mind you, it's the hardest boss in the series), and CK2 I want to get more familiar with (I have completed it)
13:04:27 <ais523_> you'd think the company is missing an opportunity there, if they have things they can sell and people want to buy
13:04:37 <wib_jonas> as for free PC games, I really like OpenTTD, which started as a clone of the commertial game Transport Tycoon Deluxe, and became a decent clone, but then grew past it and became better
13:05:21 <wib_jonas> ais523: maybe, but I think they wouldn't earn much money from it, compared to what they get from their more recent games,
13:05:28 <ais523_> hmm, oddly, I think every PC game I've played in the past few years has permadeath/perma-consequence
13:05:50 <ais523_> mostly due to being roguelikes, but some of them are puzzle games or other genres for which permadeath makes sense
13:05:53 <wib_jonas> plus, I'm not sure, but they might be in a situation where no one company owns the rights to sell the game, and the multiple owners can't come to an agreement
13:06:06 <myname> ais523_: you can get a large portion of games without drm through the humblebundle store
13:06:08 <ais523_> hmm, unless you count Tetravex but I'm not convinced you should
13:06:20 <ais523_> myname: indeed, many of my purchased games were obtained like that
13:06:31 <wib_jonas> I might also try OpenRTC, which is a similar clone of another game by Chris Sawyer (the creator of OpenTTD), but I'm not yet sure it's for me
13:06:36 <ais523_> a few through GOG, who tend to patch the DRM out of old games they sell
13:06:56 <ais523_> (I have both the original disk copy of Neverwinter Nights with DRM intact, and a fully-updated version via GOG)
13:07:08 <ais523_> (sometimes when you're speedrunning playing the buggy version is more fun thoug)
13:07:26 <wib_jonas> I have nostalgia for Railroad Tycoon, but the problem is, OpenRTC is a clone of Railroad Tycoon 2, which is a very different game
13:08:22 <ais523_> if you consider the time limit on moves to be part of a tetris-like, no
13:08:54 <ais523_> I do like puzzle games but have mostly been playing ones with no time limits on the move
13:09:02 <wib_jonas> ais523: how about with no time limit, but you don't know of all future random pieces that you'll get when you have to commit the current one?
13:09:04 <ais523_> (that said, I used to play Enigma a lot, and some levels there have limits)
13:09:11 <ais523_> wib_jonas: yes, I play those quite a lot
13:09:24 <ais523_> mostly as a distraction while waiting for compiles or the like
13:09:48 <wib_jonas> I haven't been playing any video games recently,
13:09:56 <wib_jonas> but I should get back to them a little eventually
13:10:13 <wib_jonas> not too much, I don't intend to become a professional gamer or anything
13:10:14 <esowiki> [[Basis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66996&oldid=66976 * A * (+562)
13:11:05 <ais523_> @tell imode assuming it's your language, you should give the 01[] language a name and add it to the wiki (OK, so it's probably technically a brainfuck derivative, but it's different enough that there's unlikely to be an issue)
13:12:52 <wib_jonas> heh heh, naming them is the hardest part
13:13:00 <wib_jonas> which is why I ended up with (1) and 1.1
13:13:29 <ais523_> well, 01[] isn't terrible as a name (although I'm not convinced it's a valid page name for the wiki)
13:14:42 <wib_jonas> it's not, you can't have square brackets in the name
13:15:01 <ais523_> right, that's the rule I thought it violated
13:15:06 <wib_jonas> but C# isn't a valid page name either
13:15:22 <wib_jonas> so wikipedia has some problems with C, C++, C# languages
13:15:30 <esowiki> [[Basis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66997&oldid=66996 * A * (+79)
13:15:40 <ais523_> C♯ is a valid page name, and the actual name of the language IIRC
13:15:52 <ais523_> (it's just considered legitimate to use # to represent ♯ when typing it)
13:16:20 <ais523_> <Wikipedia> However the ECMA 334 standard states: "The name C# is written as the LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C (U+0043) followed by the NUMBER SIGN # (U+0023)."
13:16:25 <esowiki> [[Basis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66998&oldid=66997 * A * (-4) /* Print "Element" without using letters */
13:16:32 <ais523_> I guess we have a standard on how to write it
13:18:20 <esowiki> [[Basis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66999&oldid=66998 * A * (-27) /* Interpret Deadfish */
13:29:38 <wib_jonas> is that ECMA standard about the programming language?
13:46:22 <wib_jonas> mind you, it's not even the worst name that Microsoft gave
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13:59:56 <ais523_> wow, C# has covariant arrays just like Java does? I thought that was widely considered a design mistake in Java, I wonder why C# copied it?
14:00:36 <ais523_> (the better approach, IMO, would be to have a specific "unmodifiable array" type that arrays can be cast to, but not cast back from; that type would be covariant even though the underlying array isn't)
14:01:10 <wib_jonas> I don't know how that works in Java, luckily
14:02:13 <ais523_> in Java, if type X extends (i.e. is a subtype of) type Y, an array X[] can be cast to an array Y[] without error
14:02:28 <ais523_> you can read Y objects from your Y[] without issue (because all your X objects are Y objects)
14:02:38 <wib_jonas> right, but how can that work with mutable arrays?
14:02:46 <ais523_> but if you try to store a Y that isn't an X into your Y[], you get a runtime error (because the Y[] is actually an X[] so only Xes can be stored in it)
14:03:03 <ais523_> so the short answer is that it doesn't, which is why it's considered a design mistake
14:05:25 <wib_jonas> of course, C++ has one of these stupid situations too, where you can get a runtime error for something that would usually give you a compile time error:
14:05:31 <myname> stackoverflow claims, this came at a time without generics
14:05:47 <ais523_> it took a while for Java to add generics
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14:06:06 <wib_jonas> if you call an abstract method on a class that is only partly constructed, so it's currently an absract class, you can get a runtime exception
14:06:09 <ais523_> (and when they did, the Java compiler became Turing-complete)
14:06:39 <wib_jonas> wasn't the java compiler Turing-complete even before that, for other reasons?
14:06:51 <ais523_> possibly? I'm not sure what language feature you'd use, though
14:07:10 <ais523_> note that in a compiled language, having a Turing-complete language and a Turing-complete compiler are quite different
14:07:17 <ais523_> most (all?) BF compilers are not TC
14:07:27 <ais523_> because the compilation always halts
14:07:54 <wib_jonas> and the C compiler without the preprocessor is probably not turing-complete
14:08:12 <wib_jonas> with the preprocessor it probably still isn't turing-complete
14:08:34 <ais523_> right, I think all loops in the preprocessor are either provably infinite or provably finite
14:08:35 <wib_jonas> whereas the C++ compiler is probably turing-complete
14:08:40 <ais523_> which means that it can't be TC
14:09:05 <wib_jonas> almost certainly TC for recent enough versions of C++
14:09:12 <ais523_> C++ is definitely TC at compile time, C++-at-compile-time is sometimes seen as a language choice in programming competitions because of this
14:09:36 <ais523_> (allegedly, one year someone used this in order to get around runtime restrictions in the IOI, by doing the entire logic of their program at compile time; they added compile time restrictions too the year after)
14:11:10 <wib_jonas> I know at least two competition tasks where the result that your program can generate can fit in a few screenfuls, so the program runtime can be made trivial, even in C,
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14:11:18 <ais523_> Perl is trivially TC at compile time because it has a keyword to run code during the compile
14:11:21 <wib_jonas> though generating those results in first place can be hard
14:11:53 <ais523_> wib_jonas: that's a good point: if you have the time to actually run your program, why not just work out what the result is, and write a program that prints it as the constant string?
14:12:07 <ais523_> although the IOI probably marks you on what the code does in addition to getting the result right, so that trick wouldn't work there
14:12:44 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, that works, but the competitions themselves have a submission deadline, so the limitation is that the human has to somehow compute the result by then
14:12:48 <ais523_> C-INTERCAL actually has a command-line option, -F, to do this optimisation (i.e. first statically analyse the program to see if it has constant output; if it does, run the program and just generate an executable that hardcodes the output)
14:13:07 <ais523_> international olympiad in informatics, I think? I mostly only know it by the acronym
14:13:17 <wib_jonas> ais523: I don't know how it's scored
14:13:22 <ais523_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Olympiad_in_Informatics
14:13:29 <wib_jonas> there's like two of them, and I know of them indirectly
14:13:43 <myname> i always thought, "informatics" is not a thing in english
14:14:02 <ais523_> it is, but it's a technical word that isn't in common use
14:14:16 <ais523_> IIRC many languages use similar words much more freely / in an everyday sense
14:14:59 <myname> in germany, the studying subject "computer science" is just called informatik
14:15:44 <myname> i once mentioned somewhere i am studying informatics and people where like "what?"
14:15:58 <myname> even though bioinformatics is called bioinformatics
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14:17:00 <wib_jonas> one of the competition tasks was to generate the truncatable primes http://oeis.org/A024770 , those ones whose number of digits equals to the program input. that's a finite sequence, so I solved this by precomputing and embedding each of the replies into the program.
14:17:29 <wib_jonas> myname: I think it's a europeanism that isn't used in english, but is used in the continent, so it works for the name of that contest
14:20:18 <wib_jonas> the other such task is trickier, it's the farming puzzle in http://ch24.org/static/archive/2008/2008_ec.pdf . that one has less than 15 essentially distinct inputs. however,
14:20:57 <wib_jonas> that's a competition round where you aren't judged by your code, and the input set is public as soon as the problem is, you only send the outputs as the solution,
14:21:15 <wib_jonas> so it's not a problem that there are so few inputs and that you can hard-code them, generating the outputs still isn't trivial,
14:21:51 <wib_jonas> and unlike the previous case, you probably couldn't even look up the results in the OEIS or elsewhere online before the contest
14:22:20 <ais523_> I think it would be worthwhile to have a language with every OEIS sequence as a builtin
14:22:28 <ais523_> (you'd probably need flow control, but nothing else, to make a usable language)
14:22:34 <ais523_> however, it would be a huge amount of effort
14:22:53 <wib_jonas> ais523: yes, but it's not trivial to download dumps from OEIS, so it's hard to make this run off-line
14:23:23 <wib_jonas> and of course *every* OEIS sequence is impossible if you take it too literally
14:23:25 <ais523_> you'd probably need to write the code yourself
14:23:30 <wib_jonas> but many OEIS sequences could work
14:24:37 <fizzie> Back when I was in university, they had a "Laboratory of Theoretical Computer Science" (TCS for short, for proper CS: computational complexity, logic, cryptography, distributed computation) and "Laboratory of Computer and Information Science" (CIS for short, for machine learning and such), which they merged to "Department of Information and Computer Science" (ICS, for all the sciencey computer science
14:24:43 <fizzie> stuff); which were all entirely parallel to the Department of (just) Computer Science (CS for short, for all the engineeringy software development stuff).
14:27:31 <wib_jonas> and of course it would have to be uncomputable, because there are a few uncomputable sequences in OEIS, like http://oeis.org/A028444
14:27:55 <wib_jonas> and a lot of sequences that are at least semi-computable but we don't have an efficient way to compute them
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15:27:16 <HackEso> olist 1185: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
15:27:17 <fungot> wib_jonas: it's so nice. now you'll think of her as the seventh member, then. meet. for example, the week after we finish, pally. it is not acceptable to cast, i should know
15:27:43 <wib_jonas> fungot: hey, no spoilers! we'll read the strip, don't give it away
15:27:43 <fungot> wib_jonas: a lot. way more for all that, may i suggest that i would do such as that, yes of course"? you're, like, and you get if we go down a level!
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15:39:39 <wib_jonas> so how will they take that photo in the council room that Elan wanted to take in #1178 ?
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16:10:42 <wib_jonas> I don't think of her as the seventh member anyway. I think of her as the sixth member, who will replace Belkar soon after he dies. Adventuring parties can't have more than six members, any more than you can carry more than six pokémon on you.
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20:22:25 <b_jonas> in a regular polygon with 6.776 sides, the sides have the same length as the radius of the incircle
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20:30:43 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67000&oldid=66799 * JonoCode9374 * (+37) /* Quine */
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20:52:33 <esowiki> [[Plugh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67001 * Joshop * (+628) Created page with "Plugh is a stack based language which is missing one of the key features of stack based languages: a push operation. Working around this is somewhat annoying to do. ==Syntax==..."
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22:22:23 <esowiki> [[The Program Is Mostly Ignored]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67002&oldid=66994 * Oerjan * (-2) Tweak invisible formatting in attempt to make diff sane
22:24:20 <oerjan> it's an outrage that mediawiki's diff can get so easily confused by line breaks
22:27:56 <int-e> that effect is amazing
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22:43:44 <oerjan> it seems like it is mainly finding lines that match exactly, and changed lines only get matched with their old version if they don't change position relative to the unchanged ones.
23:15:09 <HackEso> 1/3:inverness//Inverness is a city in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative. \ welcome.ru//Добро пожаловать в Международный центр по разработке и внедрению языков эзотерического программирования! Для получения дополнительной информации посетите wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Для другого
23:15:14 <HackEso> 2/3:ипа эзотеризма попробуйте #esoteric в EFnet или DALnet.) \ elendil//Elendil's dad, Amandil, decided to try to save Numenor from its awful end by sailing to the Undying Lands and appealing to the Valar, but got lost. His family founded a new empire in Middle-earth. Elendil himself later made the Last Alliance with the elf king Gil-Galad, against Sauron. \ sentience//sentience is the primary goal of wisdom. wi
23:15:19 <HackEso> 3/3:sdom is the primary goal of sentience. \ keming//Keming is a text compression scheme popular in Word processors.
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