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00:58:31 <int-e> fungot: do you plundervolt?
00:58:31 <fungot> int-e: not the nth? i didn't vote for either of these been used for any significant sites?
01:11:28 <arseniiv> fungot: what is your nth-child?
01:11:28 <fungot> arseniiv: not if you stopped working on it, or lump it.' many compilers will optimize them to the site and got the most interesting code is in
01:12:46 <arseniiv> int-e: I’d prefer an axiom of chocolate!
01:13:42 <int-e> axiom of chocolate: the darker the better
01:14:29 <int-e> (Though honestly I'm not sure about the 90%+ area.)
01:14:49 <fizzie> Someone had left some super-bitter "98%" or whatever chocolate at the snack area, I think that was kind of overdoing it.
01:15:01 <fizzie> There were like six or eight different kinds, and they were all like that.
01:15:07 <fizzie> I'm sure it's healthty, but still.
01:15:44 <int-e> heh, I don't eat chocolate because it's healthy (or not)
01:16:50 <int-e> But I just realized that I have some 85% chocolate around.
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01:17:18 <int-e> And that's quite good :)
01:20:25 <fizzie> That sounds reasonable enough.
01:21:09 <int-e> I had some super high % chocolate and found that it was ... dry, almost dusty.
01:21:42 <shachaf> I don't like dark chocolate.
01:21:50 <int-e> So yeah, I share some super dark chocolate skepticism.
01:22:18 <int-e> shachaf: What's the difference between B+ and B* trees?
01:22:57 <shachaf> I think there are a lot of different points in B-tree design space, and people named a few of those points, but mostly not the ones I actually want to use.
01:23:35 <shachaf> B+ trees store values only in the leaves (reasonable), and also have links between leaf nodes (is that that important?).
01:23:59 <shachaf> B* trees will share keys with both left and right siblings, I think, so nodes can be 2/3 full?
01:24:28 <shachaf> The point is: I thought B-trees were annoying and complicated until recently, when I thought about them. Now I think they're simple.
01:24:45 <int-e> Hmm, is that that important --> for external storage, I imagine it may help for linear scans?
01:25:25 <shachaf> Sure. I mean, it seems like a reasonable optimization for some uses, but you make lots of those when you implement things in practice.
01:25:28 <int-e> (But I didn't really expect any answers.)
01:29:55 <int-e> fungot: do you like side-stepping questions?
01:29:55 <fungot> int-e: that wraps functions... and just eval it in some ways
01:30:07 <shachaf> Wait, which question did I side-step?
01:30:19 <int-e> shachaf: that wasn't about you
01:30:37 <int-e> I've realized that I've identified a thing that *I* like.
01:30:39 <shachaf> But everything is about me.
01:31:31 <int-e> shachaf: Fine. You were the muse, the catalyst.
01:31:59 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
01:32:18 <shachaf> `learn shachaf sprø som selleri and is the muse, the catalyst.
01:32:54 <int-e> No more passion fruits?
01:33:41 <shachaf> Unicode has two code points with the same name?
01:36:13 <int-e> No bell pepper? Only 🌶...
01:36:39 <lambdabot> http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.dailykos.com/story/2019/4/19/1849291/-PWB-Freidai-Follies-and-Foolishness
01:36:39 <lambdabot> Title: Уведомление о переадресации
01:37:47 <int-e> Weird page. Oh well, I don't know what I was trying to find there anyway.
01:38:43 <int-e> ``unidecode 🗭 # not for Democrats?
01:38:44 <HackEso> `unidecode? No such file or directory
01:38:48 <int-e> `` unidecode 🗭 # not for Democrats?
01:38:50 <HackEso> [U+1F5ED RIGHT THOUGHT BUBBLE]
01:39:22 <int-e> `` unidecode 🗬 # this one also exists, of course
01:39:24 <HackEso> [U+1F5EC LEFT THOUGHT BUBBLE]
01:40:04 <int-e> `` unidecode 🗯 # haha!
01:40:11 <HackEso> [U+1F5EF RIGHT ANGER BUBBLE]
01:40:23 <shachaf> Where's my RIGHTEOUS ANGER BUBBLE?
01:41:54 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
01:42:08 * int-e is missing something
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03:52:45 <int-e> fungot: hh and cc or hpp and cpp?
03:52:45 <fungot> int-e: someone is either up very late, which can be checked
04:01:20 <int-e> shachaf: But I like a language strictly between C and C++... basically C++ without dynamic methods (and consequently, very limited inheritance).
04:01:39 <int-e> dynamic -> virtual
04:02:49 <shachaf> What's the benefit of inheritance at all?
04:04:28 <int-e> You can still have some limited aggregation going on.
04:05:09 <int-e> Only extending interfaces and functionality... no overloading of methods or things will quickly become insane.
04:06:06 <int-e> (virtual methods are what keep this sane)
04:06:55 <shachaf> Wait, are you for or against virtual methods?
04:06:59 <int-e> The main thing I want is that every (struct/class) type has an associated namespace.
04:07:42 <int-e> shachaf: It depends? They are essential for OO. I don't want to do OO though.
04:07:45 <shachaf> I've been wondering how important that is for a while.
04:08:12 <shachaf> Is there a big advantage to x.f() over foo(x)?
04:08:49 <shachaf> I meant x.foo(), of course.
04:08:52 <int-e> Little, if you can overload foo().
04:10:05 <int-e> But C can't overload functions either.
04:10:46 <int-e> I think there's an advantage over having x.foo() or foo(x) vs. having to write type_foo(x) where 'type' happens to be the type of x.
04:11:44 <int-e> I'm not a very fast typist, so that kind of redundancy really hurts.
04:14:11 <int-e> I also find chaining of operations attractive... if you have struct T { T &set_foo(); T &set_bar(); }; T t; and do t.set_foo().set_bar().
04:15:40 <shachaf> I like (T){.foo = x, .bar = y};
04:15:53 <shachaf> Which C has had for 20 years and maybe C++ is finally getting?
04:17:19 <int-e> Anyway, if you were to add methods to structs in C I might consider using it again ;) )
04:17:42 <shachaf> type_foo has the benefit that you can search for it.
04:18:30 <int-e> Yes, we all rationalize our own choices.
04:18:54 <shachaf> I said a few lines ago that I've been wondering about it for a while.
04:19:09 <shachaf> In particular I mean that I'm not sure whether it's a good idea or not.
04:21:41 <int-e> It doesn't help C's case that it's largely a subset of C++. (The field initialisers are a good point, of course.)
04:22:20 <int-e> So basically the moment a person (like me) finds /anything/ they like in C++, they are tempted to switch.
04:23:31 <shachaf> whoa, I just realized how my own program worked.
04:23:38 <int-e> Btw I also find the iostream and iomanip stuff cute.
04:23:40 <shachaf> I had a bug which turned out to be a clever trick.
04:23:57 <shachaf> It did exactly the right thing. I'm going to document it and pretend it was what I meant to do all along.
04:24:28 <int-e> Been a while since I've done that, but yeah... those are interesting experiences.
04:25:09 <int-e> Well, the last time was actually code that I /knew/ couldn't work, that turned out to work /most/ of the time (much more often than it reasonably should), but not always :)
04:25:39 <int-e> I was really glad when I finally discovered that it did, in fact, break.
04:26:20 <int-e> (This was with last month's Ponder This, in code updating determinants which worked with insufficient precision... and still produced exact results most of the time.)
04:26:37 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/b-trees.txt
04:28:20 <int-e> The time before that was an overzealous (by my understanding at the time of writing it) check in a combinatorial search procedure which I could later justify to actually be valid (for quite subtle reasons).
04:28:58 <int-e> "overzealous check" -- this was for pruning a search tree, so I pruned more than I thought I could.
04:30:57 <int-e> shachaf: funny, I always think of B+-trees as 2-3-4-trees, only wider.
04:31:22 <int-e> And 2-3-4-trees are 2-3-trees with lazier splitting.
04:31:39 <shachaf> I always think of red-black trees as 2-3-4 trees.
04:32:12 <int-e> (Are B- -trees those that can have between n and 2n-1 children at each node?)
04:32:42 <int-e> I usually don't think of red-black trees at all.
04:33:08 <shachaf> Did you know they just encode 2-3-4 trees?
04:33:55 <shachaf> Anyway, I like this array perspective.
04:34:01 <int-e> but yeah, if I have to, I collapse it to a 2-3-4 tree.
04:34:22 <shachaf> I think just about all the operations are obvious from this viewpoint.
04:34:36 <int-e> AVL trees make so much more sense to me.
04:37:08 <int-e> shachaf: I think the array perspective is one of many possible views and it's impossible to say which view clicks for any particular person.
04:39:00 <int-e> Obviously /some/ sort of array is inherent in any Bx-tree because a flat array is what you get for very small data sets.
04:39:28 <shachaf> I mean, I've written a bunch of B-tree code in the past, I was already familiar with the data structure.
04:39:42 <int-e> And observing some sort of chunking at the leafs when you flatten the tree is also inevitable.
04:40:33 <int-e> But whether you view the thing top-down, emphasizing the tree structure, or bottom-up, empahsizing the (chunked) flattened array... is up to you.
04:42:12 <int-e> If you do it bottom-up, you get intermediate forests as you group consecutive chunks under a common ancestor node.
04:42:38 <int-e> So it's arrays all the way up. ;)
04:42:46 <int-e> But trees all the way down.
04:43:29 <shachaf> It's plausibly reasonable to use different kinds of indexing for blocks and for values.
04:43:42 <shachaf> Since they're very different sizes.
04:46:10 <int-e> Btw, I don't know if anything of what I just wrote made any sense. But I'm very happy with the last two lines.
04:50:10 <shachaf> C++'s std::map is usually a red-black tree.
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06:53:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Quadril-Is * uploaded "[[File:Burn program.png]]"
06:55:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Quadril-Is * uploaded "[[File:Burn program resized.png]]"
06:58:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67873&oldid=67839 * Quadril-Is * (+324) /* PNG of the program */ new section
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08:32:46 <esowiki> [[User:Dart]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67874&oldid=67769 * Dart * (+233)
09:00:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: C++ std::map interface is defined such that when you modify the tree, the address of the contained items doesn't change (unless you erase that specific item), nor can the iterator to items. that negates some of the advantages of better B-trees. it could still use a B-tree with the items accessible through an extra pointer or index, but it's easier to just put every item in a separate node that
09:00:27 <b_jonas> never moves like a B-tree does.
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09:04:26 <shachaf> OK, that's a good reason not to use std::map.
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09:13:10 <Taneb> izabera: did you figure out graphs?
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10:16:49 <cpressey> Good morning. Here's a kooky juxtaposition for y'all: The Löwenheim-Skolem theorem says that if a logic has an infinite model, it has a countable one. Meanwhile there's this folk theorem in programming: if a program requires a loop, then it can be written with a single loop.
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10:39:24 <wib_jonas> cpressey: I think that latter is Dijkstra's "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" theorem, though it was probably known before Dijkstra, because people had cpus with a single loop that fetches instructions then executes them
10:43:03 <wib_jonas> cpressey: "https://esolangs.org/wiki/(0)" may be relevant for some infinite versions
10:52:33 <shachaf> Why is deletion so complicated?
10:53:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oklomsy * New user account
10:54:25 <wib_jonas> shachaf: that's the tradeoff about AVL trees versus B-trees or related. AVL trees have more complicated algorithms in general, but fast and simple deletion; B-trees and red-black trees have simple algorithms, but deletion can take O(log(n)) time.
10:55:58 <shachaf> I don't care about about it being slow, right now, just complicated.
10:56:22 <shachaf> Surely AVL tree deletion takes logarithmic time, anyway.
10:57:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67875&oldid=67846 * Oklomsy * (+251) /* Introductions */
10:59:24 <wib_jonas> shachaf: hmm, I might be misremembering, let me check the Knuth book
11:00:28 <wib_jonas> shachaf: you should look at the Okasaki book's description of red-black trees if you want a simple one
11:00:33 <shachaf> Maybe I shouldn't be doing B+ trees?
11:00:43 <shachaf> I'm not interested in red-black trees.
11:00:48 <wib_jonas> red-black trees look very complicated to me at first, but when Okasaki explains them, they're simpler
11:01:27 <wib_jonas> shachaf: well, what data structure you want depends on what you want it for. for storing on a disk that you read in sectors/clusters/blocks, some sort of B-tree with high degree is usually better
11:01:58 <wib_jonas> shachaf: also you could try to use a library written by someone else, such as that B-tree library from the future that ais523 will write
11:05:42 <wib_jonas> ok sorry, I was wrong. AVL tree deletion may require you to modify O(height) nodes
11:05:59 <wib_jonas> its insertion of a single node into AVL trees that is faster, because it requires you to adjust only O(1) nodes
11:06:12 <wib_jonas> whereas with a B-tree, an insertion may require you to adjust O(log n) nodes
11:06:47 <wib_jonas> shachaf: because if someone else already wrote a good and well-tested library, it's less likely to be buggy than if you write one
11:07:03 <wib_jonas> and there are a lot of balanced search tree libraries out there
11:10:13 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67876 * Oklomsy * (+36) Created page with "Furcode [[Category:Joke_languages]]"
11:10:51 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67877&oldid=67876 * Oklomsy * (-36) Blanked the page
11:12:40 <esowiki> [[Dd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67878&oldid=67864 * Dart * (+275) Added a shorter implementation
11:20:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67879&oldid=67276 * Oklomsy * (+621)
11:21:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67880&oldid=67879 * Oklomsy * (-584)
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11:38:54 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67882&oldid=67877 * Oklomsy * (+2023)
11:42:45 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67883&oldid=67882 * Oklomsy * (+653)
11:43:19 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67884&oldid=67883 * Oklomsy * (+6) /* Bash interpreter */
11:50:22 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67885&oldid=67884 * Dart * (-1486) There is no point copying the code to the page if there's already a link
11:57:37 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67886&oldid=67706 * Oklomsy * (+71)
12:00:10 <esowiki> [[Dd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67887&oldid=67881 * Dart * (-20)
12:00:12 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67888 * Oklomsy * (+148) Created page with "Hello! Welcome to my page, I am [[User:Oklomsy|Oklomsy]] I am the creator of [[Furcode]] I live in Denmark, and my life isn't interesting at all..."
12:09:07 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67889&oldid=67885 * Oklomsy * (+10) /* Interpreters */
12:10:04 <esowiki> [[Furcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67890&oldid=67889 * Oklomsy * (-1) Marked the broken intrepeter
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12:16:22 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67892&oldid=67888 * Oklomsy * (+77)
12:21:27 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67893&oldid=67892 * Oklomsy * (+325)
12:21:40 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67894&oldid=67893 * Oklomsy * (+1)
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16:54:34 <esowiki> [[Long]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=67895 * Hex96 * (+368) Created page with "Long is an esolang that really should not exist. The HELLO world program is this: <pre> Dwhhwxjwxgxshsxuxsysxhhaxhdhsxhsxhsxh print(string101010100101111001010101010101010101..."
16:55:05 <esowiki> [[Long]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67896&oldid=67895 * Hex96 * (+1)
16:55:31 <esowiki> [[Long]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67897&oldid=67896 * Hex96 * (-1)
16:56:33 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67898&oldid=67867 * Hex96 * (+11) /* List of esolangs */
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17:03:31 <int-e> ... so wrong, so nice: pl = read . ("[" ++) . (++ "]")
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18:00:21 <int-e> Oh yay, another variation on the intcode interpreter.
18:01:29 <int-e> (Purity means that synchronizing input and output takes extra effort... and as it turns out, that was not really required.)
18:03:25 <int-e> (while the description says that the hull painting robot can use input instructions all the time, the actual program nicely follows the patter of reading one input, then producing two outputs)
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18:06:52 <int-e> I've also started to abuse pattern guards a lot...
18:07:12 <int-e> > let f x | x <- x+1, x <- x*2 = x in f 4
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18:12:01 <fizzie> Yeah, my prediction that we'd've seen all of Intcode got obsolete in record time.
18:17:51 <fizzie> The one I have now has four I/O mechanisms. One to stdin/out with prompts for interactive use, one that's reads from / writes to a list for earlier problems, one which uses Python's thread-safe queues because I made that feedback loop actually run technically in parallel (I'm sure it's always 4/5 blocking for input though) and now one with just a pair of generic callback functions that do the robot.
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18:21:10 <int-e> evolution: http://paste.debian.net/1120691/
18:21:17 <int-e> (very minor spoiler)
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18:24:32 <int-e> Oh the day 2 one didn't have a type signature, but it would've been Int -> [Int] -> [Int].
18:25:19 <int-e> Maybe we'll see Intcode every second day? :)
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18:26:00 <int-e> fungot: do you like Langton's ant?
18:26:00 <fungot> int-e: ( and t f)) if you prefer; the effect is unspecified.
18:27:10 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67899&oldid=67844 * DmilkaSTD * (+119)
18:28:37 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67900&oldid=67899 * DmilkaSTD * (-8)
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18:53:38 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67901&oldid=67851 * Int-e * (+244) /* Example Programs */ Langton's ant
18:58:43 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67902&oldid=67901 * Int-e * (+3) days
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20:02:02 <b_jonas> fungot, are raspberries better than strawberries?
20:02:02 <fungot> b_jonas: i am using the fluid-let syntax ( very similar to fnord
20:05:01 <b_jonas> oh, that Intcode stuff, is that also about the Advent of Code? good for you. I'm busy doing ugly real-world stuff for work so I didn't bother with that now
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20:38:45 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67903&oldid=67902 * Int-e * (-78) /* Hello, World! */ a working hello world (the previous version executed undefined opcodes, apparently assuming they would be skipped)
21:31:45 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67904&oldid=67903 * Int-e * (+158) Restructure, improve consistency, reduce direct quotes from AoC site, and use less emphasis.
21:33:31 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67905&oldid=67904 * Int-e * (+3) missed a spot, as usual...
21:42:53 <int-e> Hrm, what are the alternatives to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Usability_unknown ?
21:49:38 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Unusable_for_programming
21:52:57 <b_jonas> int-e: the Categorization page seems to say to me that there's no special category for languages that are usable for programming, I assume because most esolangs should be usable for programming, notwithstanding the large amounts of "brainfuck with some extra instructions but the loops can't nest" nonsense that some users post
21:52:59 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67906&oldid=67905 * Int-e * (+501) Computational class, sort categories.
21:54:20 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=67907&oldid=67906 * Int-e * (-31) I believe Intcode (as of now) is eminently usable for programming
21:55:05 <b_jonas> but, as always, I may just be inventing things, don't trust me when I talk about esolang community traditions
21:56:29 <int-e> I take responsibility for the edit, obviously. It's no big deal, it's a wiki, people can overrule things.
21:57:11 <int-e> . o O ( let's rename it to int-code )
22:08:34 <int-e> shachaf: How's your SAT learning experience going?
22:09:18 <int-e> shachaf: I was asleep the last few times you talked about it.
22:25:28 <shachaf> int-e: Haven't touched it since the last time I talked about it here, I think.
22:41:40 <b_jonas> for a change, I'm listening to such pop music where the lyrics is pronounced clearly so I can understand every word without refering to a transcript of the lyrics
22:43:34 <b_jonas> though it also slightly helps that these ones are in Hungarian
22:43:55 <int-e> That's actually a remarkably awful google search term...
22:44:06 <int-e> Or at least duckduckgo search term.
22:44:59 <int-e> The thing in quotes.
22:45:54 <int-e> "awful" in the sense that none of the hits look in any way interesting... rather they look like actual reviews of singers and speakers of no significance.
22:46:22 <int-e> Not "awful" in the goatse sense.
22:47:23 <b_jonas> well, it's not particularly specific
22:47:31 <b_jonas> there are lots of things you could enunciate well or badly
22:50:55 <b_jonas> some other times I like to Youtube binge for multiple performances of the same piece of music or poem. it can be interesting to compare them
22:51:26 <b_jonas> I mean multiple good performances by different bands or performers
23:11:20 -!- ArthurStrong has joined.
23:13:29 <b_jonas> the songs on this album vary a lot in how well the lyrics matches the rhythm of the music