00:02:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EthanPixelate * New user account
00:04:54 <zzo38> Also how to configure the skip amount by pushing the arrows?
00:10:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68367&oldid=68130 * EthanPixelate * (+468)
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00:43:52 <zzo38> Should there be a "languages with unknown working" category? There are some on esolang wiki.
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01:13:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wenyan-lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68368&oldid=68340 * Ts * (+71)
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02:33:37 <imode> if you restrict thue's rule space to 3 symbols on the LHS and RHS, is it still turing complete?
02:34:47 <imode> this is also assuming a binary alphabet.
02:35:17 <imode> I guess yes, because you can construct rule 110 from that...?
02:39:34 <kmc> I think black is K because B was already blue, as in RGB
02:39:40 <kmc> i'm not sure there's anything more to it
02:39:52 <kmc> never heard of it meaning "key"
02:40:17 <kmc> but i'm not an expert in the field
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03:16:27 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a X server in PostScript?
03:17:09 <zzo38> That would allow you to print vector graphics from any X client.
03:18:03 <zzo38> A book I got mentions using PostScript for printing, although they just describe their program generating a PostScript code and then telling the system to print; they also say they could instead generate vector graphics and generate those PostScript codes instead.
03:18:22 <imode> zzo38: you should look at NeWS.
03:18:35 <imode> display postscript and all that.
03:19:20 <zzo38> But other ways would be to write a PostScript program to parse the file format used, or to use a PostScript-based X server.
03:20:00 <zzo38> imode: I saw NeWS, but I think that PostScript is not a very good document format or protocol, but PostScript is OK as a programming language.
03:20:39 <zzo38> And anyways it seem that NeWS is not X.
03:24:47 <zzo38> (I don't really like the pie menus either)
03:45:47 <imode> I can only see a 3-length binary string rewriting system as being TC if it's used to implement Rule 110. can't see any other way.
03:50:40 <int-e> Can you even do that? I mean you can implement the rules just fine, but you lose all the synchronicity.
03:51:34 <int-e> In fact, since the transitions overlap... it's not obvious how to make a CA.
03:51:35 <imode> if you assume a priority order, sure.
03:51:57 <imode> at least I think..
03:52:54 <int-e> It's also noteworthy that you operate on an infinite (to both sides) string here, so you're outside the string rewriting formalism anyway.
03:54:51 <int-e> (but that can be worked around; things like termination can still be undecidable for length-preserving string rewriting systems)
03:56:30 <imode> I guess my real question is: given Thue, limit the string length for the LHS and RHS to some constant value, and limit the alphabet to binary. what's the smallest length that still makes the resulting variant turing complete.
03:59:52 <int-e> hmm. probably too hard to answer ;)
04:00:13 <imode> it's an interesting idea, though.
04:00:49 <int-e> 65536 systems for length 2; 2^2^(2n) for length n.
04:01:15 <int-e> And then you have to decide on a question for "TC".
04:02:07 <int-e> (FWIW, I don't really accept the notion that rule 110 is TC. It embeds too much information in the starting configuration for my taste.)
04:02:33 <int-e> At least with the proof we have.
04:02:59 <imode> yeah... I'm kind of in the same boat.
04:04:09 <int-e> The (related) problem with length-preserving SRSs is that if you fix a starting string then it has only finitely many successors, and that makes pretty much every question you might ask about that (termination, reachability of a particular string, even stuff like confluence, weak normalization, and so forth) decidable.
04:04:29 <int-e> So the question you ask somehow has to allow strings of unbounded length.
04:04:55 <imode> I don't have any reservations about that.
04:05:03 <int-e> like "is there a string that doesn't terminate"
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05:14:04 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68369 * EthanPixelate * (+2950) Created page with "'''Human Resource Code''' is an esolang based off a game called [https://tomorrowcorporation.com/humanresourcemachine Human Resource Machine]. The only commands used are those..."
05:30:41 <oerjan> xkcd updating early, what is this magic
05:31:27 <oerjan> . o O ( it's always possible i just missed the previous one. )
05:32:37 <int-e> seems a bit off season... unless Randall's gone Australian.
05:32:45 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68370&oldid=68369 * EthanPixelate * (+1518)
05:33:56 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68371&oldid=68370 * EthanPixelate * (+3) /* Carpet Manipulation */
05:40:14 <oerjan> int-e: not enough fires to be australian hth
05:40:43 <oerjan> although dmm seems to have stopped twittering about it, so maybe they stopped
05:42:32 <int-e> from what I'm reading they haven't. they have slowed down a little thanks to a bit of rain and less wind.
05:45:05 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68372&oldid=68371 * EthanPixelate * (+381)
05:48:34 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68373&oldid=68372 * EthanPixelate * (+2) /* Jumping and Controlled Flow */
06:01:19 <esowiki> [[User:EthanPixelate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68374 * EthanPixelate * (+38) Created page with "I am potato :D ,---. \___/ ^ | potato"
06:02:43 <esowiki> [[User:EthanPixelate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68375&oldid=68374 * EthanPixelate * (-20)
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06:08:49 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68376&oldid=68373 * EthanPixelate * (+200)
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06:15:49 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68377&oldid=68376 * EthanPixelate * (+0) /* Jumping and Controlled Flow */
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06:53:07 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68378&oldid=68377 * EthanPixelate * (+85) /* Basic IO */
06:58:34 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68379&oldid=68378 * EthanPixelate * (+0) /* Introduction */
07:18:12 <Lykaina> i had a realy scary nightmare last night and i think i'm afraid to fall asleep
07:19:08 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68380&oldid=68379 * EthanPixelate * (+335)
07:19:31 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68381&oldid=68380 * EthanPixelate * (-1) /* Example Programs */
07:19:33 <Lykaina> i moved bedding to my sofa
07:20:23 <Lykaina> guess i'm trying to sabotage sleeping
07:21:02 <kmc> you could try sleeping on the sofa
07:21:19 <Lykaina> too late at night to move it back to my bed
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07:43:15 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68382&oldid=68381 * EthanPixelate * (+1270) /* Example Programs */
07:49:09 <int-e> Oh we seem to have lost shachaf.
08:01:36 <int-e> `learn GOTO is just one step removed from going to hell.
08:01:39 <HackEso> Learned 'goto': GOTO is just one step removed from going to hell.
08:06:35 <kingoffrance> zzo38, there was some display postscript extension for x on sourceforge long ago, i dunno if it ever was completed or any real programs really used it; i think proprietary unices might have shipped a real thing by default (sun? hpux? vms? irix? i dunno) ... i assume it was meant to be "compatible" to display such clients on a "free" x server (i.e. on a non-proprietary unix) but i could be way off
08:06:51 <kingoffrance> AFAIK it died and was never really used, so you might to google and archive.org to find it
08:07:25 <kingoffrance> i vaguely recall it was related to the xprint extension, but also could be way off
08:07:34 <kingoffrance> which im not sure anyone really uses/used that either
08:09:09 <kingoffrance> i dont think it was meant to be compatible with nextstep/openstep non-x stuff, but there was some speculation e.g. gnustep might be curious too use it; i assume they are/were somewhat use to aim with source-compatible with such apps, but how that manifested/manifests re: display servers i have no idea
08:09:30 <int-e> Display Postscript is ancient (oh but I didn't remember that it originated with NeXT)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript
08:09:49 <kingoffrance> (ns/os display postscript i mean); ns/os you could run x servers too, but i dont believe there was really a "bridge" to/from the DPS stuff, although you could run "rootless" somewhat
08:10:45 <kingoffrance> cube x window x server for nextstep/openstep is free license nowadays :) iso download i believe
08:11:10 <int-e> To my mind it's one of those "next big things" that never materialized.
08:11:51 <int-e> Probably killed by 3D graphics.
08:12:14 <kingoffrance> tru64 or dgux also might have been the thing that had display postscript x extension :/
08:12:23 <kingoffrance> i dunno, maybe for same cad program or something :/
08:12:38 <zzo38> I think 3D graphics (and other fancy graphics) are overused
08:12:43 <kingoffrance> so this x extension i think was meant to be compatible with that, and not the nextstep/openstep stuff
08:13:27 <zzo38> You can still use external PostScript interpreter, such as Ghostscript so you can still use Ghostscript to display PostScript graphics on a X window
08:14:35 <zzo38> But as far as I know, Ghostscript does not provide any way to read X events, nor can the X drawing functions be used in PostScript
08:16:52 <kingoffrance> ns/os is one of the things i dont think ive ever seen a vnc server for; client, but not server; i believe there are "drivers" for e.g. vmware, but im not sure of any good remote display (although qemu vnc server might suffice)
08:16:52 <int-e> It's only appropriate. Ghosts generally have trouble interacting with their environment.
08:18:05 <zzo38> Standard I/O still works, but it doesn't have X events.
08:18:24 <kingoffrance> well, some forum at least one person was trying to hack a darwin kernel to "backport", and i think they got this frankenstein booting at least, so maybe there will slowly be some up to date "ports", lack of proper posix is a killer
08:18:44 <zzo38> (Even so, PostScript graphics are best for printing rather than on screen, since PostScript uses printer fonts rather than screen fonts)
08:18:48 <kingoffrance> i believe its all legal, not stolen source or anything..... just very.....frankensteinish
08:19:23 <kingoffrance> and theres a next emulator or two now too, to emulate the next hardware, so there are sort of some people still doing stuff
08:21:03 <zzo38> It is also possible to write programs that embed Ghostscript; such as, TeXnicard embeds Ghostscript and SQLite, but uses the TeX fonts rather than PostScript fonts. It isn't very clear how to work separations when using the Ghostscript "display" device though; do you know how?
08:21:55 <kingoffrance> i hope you arent asking me, i play with oses; programming is another story :/
08:22:34 <zzo38> O, OK. Which oses you play with?
08:23:10 <kingoffrance> anything i can get my grubby hands on; i dont have much hardware nowadays, just cheap x86 stuff; the one thing i cant find an emualtor for is beos ppc, no powerpc emulator that i have found will run it
08:23:32 <zzo38> (TeXnicard is written half in C, half in SQL, and half in PostScript. It does not embed TeX but does use its font formats and some of its algorithms.)
08:24:35 <kingoffrance> someone in ##electronics said they are writing an sgi indy emulator, qemu is too slow
08:24:44 <zzo38> kindoffrance: I have not used many operating systems, but have used emulation of some systems, including 6502
08:25:01 <kingoffrance> so that perhaps is i used to have real hw, but never had time to play with
08:25:09 <kingoffrance> so he is doing penance for my sins of losing that hw
08:25:26 <zzo38> (Well, TeXnicard includes PCRE as well)
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08:26:22 <kingoffrance> i guess alpha emulators dont like windows nt, but that doesnt particularly interest me
08:26:52 <zzo38> Once I worked it enough would you or someone to try to make templates to render Magic: the Gathering cards and other card games with TeXnicard?
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08:30:06 <zzo38> I think TeX is a good typesetting system (for when you want text, rather than graphics; for graphics, PostScript is better), and wrote my own DVI driver that reads the DVI and PK fonts and converts it into the rasterized format.
08:30:54 <zzo38> However, TeXnicard does not actually use TeX (it implements some of its algorithms and file formats itself) (although METAFONT is recommended, but not technically strictly required); it uses SQL and PostScript.
08:31:20 <zzo38> So you do not need to know how to program in TeX to use TeXnicard.
08:31:30 <zzo38> Do you make up your own Magic: the Gathering cards?
08:32:09 <kingoffrance> i was never part of such things, other than rpg video games vaguely reminescent/relate
08:32:23 <kingoffrance> e.g. some of the final fantasy games added cards eventually
08:33:11 <zzo38> (You might wonder why it is called TeXnicard if it does not use TeX. I suppose the relation of TeXnicard to TeX is about as much as TeXmacs is to TeX; TeXmacs doesn't use TeX either.)
08:33:16 <kingoffrance> i dunno about modern stuff if they kept such things as a "side game" type thing
08:37:48 <kingoffrance> i think if you are making your own cards that is probably more in the spirit of such things
08:38:18 <kingoffrance> "purists" probably hate people who do such, but so long as they are not blatant ripoffs, it probably shows you understand the "mechanics" or "substance" of things
08:38:43 <kingoffrance> you have to have some understanding to do such things i mean, or at least well
08:39:42 <kingoffrance> lots of people hated many f.f. and square "3d remakes" and re-scores (music), but really, that to me is kind of what they wouldve done had they better hardware than e.g. snes
08:40:41 <kingoffrance> some people just dont like anyone touching their favorite thing, even the same company who made it, but as long as it is in the spirit of things, it doesnt bother me
08:43:43 <kingoffrance> its totally different if e.g. you are selling stuff commercially, then i would say stay far away from such things
08:45:31 <kingoffrance> thats the beauty of my nick; so long as there is no competition i am scot free
08:45:50 <kingoffrance> you dont want to mess with people who have not abandoned their throne
08:56:11 <kingoffrance> the other beauty is i will probably never go to france, so in exile i am safer
08:56:58 <zzo38> Of course if I make up the card, is unofficial. It is not meant to be used in official tournament. Many other people also make up such unofficial card
08:57:28 <zzo38> (These unofficial cards is not meant to be sold commercially either)
09:23:03 <myname> I never got the populatory of mtg tbh. I know it has been around for quite a while, but imo there are better competitive card games
09:23:58 <myname> yu-gi-oh ruined some of those, though
09:54:19 <zzo38> Sometimes you might want to construct puzzles out of nonstandard cards (like how sometimes they construct puzzles out of nonstandard chess pieces), so in such cases you might use names such as #1 and #2 and so on, and then list the text of the nonstandard cards with the puzzle.
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12:19:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Herman-L * New user account
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12:26:22 <kspalaiologos> how were the brainfuck constants on wiki generatede?
12:29:06 <int-e> I imagine brute force? enumerate all programs up to a certain length and run them to conclusion (up to some number of steps), then check the tape for numbers?
12:29:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68383&oldid=68367 * Herman-L * (+320) /* Introductions */
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13:22:52 <esowiki> [[Ral]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68384 * Herman-L * (+2892) Created page with "Ral is a stack-based random-access esoteric language created by Code Golf and Coding Challenges user [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/70894/ Herman-L]. == Descriptio..."
13:30:39 <esowiki> [[Ral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68385&oldid=68384 * Herman-L * (+408) Add sample code
13:33:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68386&oldid=68034 * Herman-L * (+10) Add Ral
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14:18:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aliu0130 * New user account
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14:21:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68387&oldid=68383 * Aliu0130 * (+280) /* Introductions */
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15:45:09 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68388&oldid=68085 * Hex96 * (+49)
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16:00:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Truttle1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68389 * Hex96 * (+75) Created page with "hey truttle, can your next vid be about one of my esolangs, [[Muppp]]? Thx."
16:12:21 <esowiki> [[A very long language name that is very weird and yeah, this is your but its this]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=68390 * Hex96 * (+204) Created page with "A very long language name that is very weird and yeah, this is your but its this is [[Your]] but every Your is replaced by A very long language name that is very weird and yea..."
16:12:46 <esowiki> [[User:Hex96]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68391&oldid=68363 * Hex96 * (+87)
16:16:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68392&oldid=68386 * Hex96 * (+87)
16:17:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68393&oldid=68392 * Hex96 * (+23) /* T */
16:18:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68394&oldid=68393 * Hex96 * (+12) /* M */
16:27:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68395&oldid=68394 * Hex96 * (+11) /* U */
16:42:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pppery * New user account
16:43:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68396&oldid=68387 * Pppery * (+159) /* Introductions */
16:45:11 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68397&oldid=68359 * Pppery * (+0) /* Evolution */ Relative mode wasn't actually introduced until Day 9
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17:22:53 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68398&oldid=68382 * EthanPixelate * (+5)
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17:54:11 <esowiki> [[Intcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68399&oldid=68397 * Fizzie * (+82) /* Proposed Assembly Syntax */ Just a thought.
18:08:23 <rain1> recommend any new nonfiction books?
18:11:27 <kmc> on what subject
18:18:00 <zzo38> I have question relating to quantum entanglement. Will the "backward in time" model work? If two experimenters far away from each other make the same measurement and have the opposite answer, then they are, from the point of view from each other, backward in time to the source and then forward to the other one, in the other direction.
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18:32:12 <rain1> zzo38: is this a way of asking does quantum information travel faster than light? i think the answer is no
18:32:26 <rain1> you can produce correlated results but not send any information
18:33:36 <zzo38> No it is not a way of asking about information. I know it does not send any information.
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18:40:03 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68400&oldid=68398 * EthanPixelate * (+5344)
18:40:37 <esowiki> [[Human Resource Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=68401&oldid=68400 * EthanPixelate * (+1) /* Lua */
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19:19:56 <kspalaiologos> and someone protected his user page from creating for unknown to me reason
19:19:59 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that if the German word "Deutsch" were made English, then it would be "Theech". Do you know if it is or not?
19:22:08 <zzo38> Do you know German so well? Then maybe you might know better than I would know
19:24:40 <kspalaiologos> "Theedish" or "Theech" is an adaptation of Old English þéodisc, meaning "national" (from þéod, "nation"). It's of the same origin as the German word Deutsch (which goes back to Old German diot, also meaning "nation"), hence why it's used as an English equivalent. A lot of national names come from words meaning simply "nation" in the native tongues.
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19:36:05 <arseniiv> <kspalaiologos> what did the person nicknamed A do => a mess. Though what specifically in the last several days, I hadn’t watched
19:37:59 <arseniiv> there are some people which unfortunately type faster than they should have been considering doing :(
19:39:04 <arseniiv> technically A usually edited mainly pages created by them, and pages like language property lists. If it had progressed beyond that, well, shame
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21:23:02 <kspalaiologos> Is there any eaisly portable compiler for any language?
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22:37:58 <arseniiv> my favorite question I hadn’t asked anybody, ever: how do you solve the expression problem?
22:38:27 <arseniiv> (in a statically-typed language)
22:38:37 <imode> expression problem?
22:42:49 <arseniiv> imode: there are several types of data, several types of operations applicable to all of them, and you need to be able to add both data and operations without modifying the existing code (e. g. it’s partially third-party or you don’t want to break API or something). Also it’s desirable that when a (data, operation) case isn’t defined for some existing data and operation, the compiler would complain even when that case isn’t u
22:42:49 <arseniiv> sed anywhere. Though the last part is my invention I think. Also I’ll find a link about this thing
22:44:34 <arseniiv> https://koerbitz.me/posts/Solving-the-Expression-Problem-in-Haskell-and-Java.html maybe here is a bearable description with some additional context too
22:50:09 <arseniiv> btw about that in Haskell, there are finally tagless interpreters but they aren’t very cool when you need to inspect the data structure?.. I hadn’t read much on that yet, though I’m partially interested in the topic. Maybe I would make a language and wish there were no e. p.
22:50:43 <arseniiv> also, extensible records and ext. variants are nice for that part
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23:44:03 <imode> I have 3 days worth of free time and I'm doing nothing with it.
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