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04:00:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Superloach *  New user account
04:08:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69900&oldid=69876 * Superloach * (+252) add my intro
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04:15:45 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=69901 * Superloach * (+4031) converted from github with pandoc
04:16:59 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69902&oldid=69901 * Superloach * (+119) add more of a description
04:18:09 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69903&oldid=69902 * Superloach * (+1) s/gt/gt;/
04:54:26 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69904&oldid=69903 * IFcoltransG * (+120) Added some categories
04:57:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69905&oldid=69891 * IFcoltransG * (+14) /* C */ Added chevron
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05:04:46 <esowiki> [[STXTRM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69906&oldid=36755 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Disambiguated link
05:12:10 <esowiki> [[STXTRM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69907&oldid=69906 * IFcoltransG * (+1) Confusing word choice 'revert' -> 'reverse'
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05:21:57 <esowiki> [[QaSaC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69908&oldid=50689 * IFcoltransG * (+135) Added categories
05:23:34 <esowiki> [[STXTRM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69909&oldid=69907 * IFcoltransG * (+23) /* See also */ Disambiguate another link
05:28:58 <esowiki> [[MESON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69910&oldid=69555 * IFcoltransG * (-4) /* Commands */ No idea why that was italicised.
05:29:35 <esowiki> [[MESON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69911&oldid=69910 * IFcoltransG * (+6) /* Commands */ Made the notation a bit clearer for tuples
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07:06:03 <oerjan> now i wonder what martellus sees in the kitchen cat
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08:19:29 <int-e> it it food?
08:32:17 <oerjan> i doubt it hth
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08:48:19 <int-e> tromp: I've been spending too much time trying to formalize that Goodstein sequence implementation in Isabelle/HOL. It's easy to define (just take the Haskell code). It's fairly easy to show that the translation to lambda calculus plus the fancy inlining is correct (which is probably the most error-prone step, so that's nice to hav). But I'm still exploring how to best show that it faithfully...
08:48:25 <int-e> ...implements the Goodstein sequence. (I have no doubt that it does, but the proofs get delicate and easily explode into a mess of case distinctions which I'd like to avoid.)
08:51:51 <Lykaina> i had a dream i found what was apparently the holy grail for trekkies (in the dream): Alexander Siddig's email addr.
08:52:27 <tromp> I assumed your computation was based on Cichon's 1983 paper that relates G(n) to the Hardy hierarchy, as noted in Wikipedia
08:55:48 <int-e> Hmm. I knew a bit of the theory (mainly the idea of replacing the base by \omega to get a termination proof). I also knew a bit about representing countable ordinals.
08:55:55 <int-e> I kind of filled in the gaps myself back then.
08:57:34 <int-e> And yes, this is intimately connected to the Hardy function. In fact if you are willing to accept a result that is larger by 2, you can save a couple of bits, by getting rid of the succ (succ n) thing, and starting at 3 instead of 1.
08:57:44 <tromp> you probably rediscovered Cichon's relation by yourself then
08:58:41 <tromp> yeah, those succs suck:-)
09:00:01 <tromp> i also revisited our programs on Laver tables
09:00:19 <tromp> those are even more fun than goodstein
09:00:53 <tromp> and have a natural killer big number (first time period exceeds 16)
09:01:22 <tromp> which takes almost exacty same number of bits as G(16)
09:03:18 <int-e> We have h_\alpha(n+2) - 2 = G_\alpha(n). The shift comes from the fact that the Goodstein sequence basically starts evaluation in base 3 (given the heriditary base 2 representation of the starting value in the form of an ordinal). But subtraction is awkward on Church numerals, so if you want G(16) rather than G(16)+2, it's easier to do the shift by 2 inside of the function... hence the two succ-s.
09:04:23 <tromp> i'm just as happy with G()+2 ...
09:05:07 <int-e> You came from a different angle, just trying to make big numbers. I wanted to have the Goodstein function.
09:06:31 <tromp> best to just define both variants
09:07:09 <int-e> 8 bits is what it saves
09:11:14 <int-e> and... pushed
09:19:05 <tromp> thanks
09:19:57 <int-e> The expw part looks funny in diagrammatic form.
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09:36:43 <int-e> @free o :: r -> (r -> r) -> ((N -> r) -> r) -> r
09:36:43 <lambdabot> f . g = h . f => f . k = p . (.) f => f (o x g k) = o (f x) h p
09:41:06 <int-e> (These free theorems are one way to formally justify pulling applications into folds: consider f = ($ x))
09:51:32 <int-e> Which after some renaming and rephrasing becomes  (forall n. s n x = s' (n x)) ==> (forall f. l f x = l' (\i -> f i x)) ==> o z s l x = o (z x) s' l'
09:54:37 <int-e> And I've realized that I've been down this path (free theorems and optimizing folds) before. It's always fun to rediscover such things, though I'd prefer to remember them...
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11:03:31 <esowiki> [[MESON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69912&oldid=69911 * IFcoltransG * (+0) /* Commands */ Fixed an off-by-two error (an off-by-one in the wrong direction)
11:04:34 <esowiki> [[ESON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69913&oldid=69556 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Commands */ Fixed tuple size spec, assuming tuples are meant to be like the Haskell constructors
11:24:23 <esowiki> [[MESON]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69914&oldid=69912 * IFcoltransG * (+85) Added link to implementation
11:32:02 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69915&oldid=68912 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26) 
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13:05:28 <esowiki> [[Chevron]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69916&oldid=69904 * Superloach * (+106) keep docs up to date
13:06:24 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69917&oldid=69832 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */
13:08:41 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69918&oldid=69916 * Superloach * (+0) everyone hates backticks
13:08:43 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69919&oldid=69917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Datatypes */
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13:16:08 <esowiki> [[Chevron]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69920&oldid=69918 * Superloach * (+64) mention label vars
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13:22:39 <wib_jonas> `fetch /hackenv/tmp/egel.zip https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/archive/master.zip
13:22:41 <HackEso> 2020-02-17 13:22:41 URL:https://codeload.github.com/egel-lang/egel/zip/master [145943] -> "/hackenv/tmp/egel.zip" [1]
13:24:16 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp; rm -rv egel-master
13:24:18 <HackEso> removed 'egel-master/lib/io/Makefile' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/io/channel.hpp' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/io/io.cpp' \ removed directory 'egel-master/lib/io' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/regex/regex.cpp' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/regex/Makefile' \ removed directory 'egel-master/lib/regex' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/fs/Makefile' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/fs/fs.cpp' \ removed directory 'egel-master/lib/fs' \ removed 'egel-master/lib/random/Mak
13:24:47 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp; unzip egel.zip
13:24:48 <HackEso> Archive:  egel.zip \ 1074f699606e00ca151cf5a4916b9a4c052d1d9f \    creating: egel-master/ \   inflating: egel-master/.gitignore   \   inflating: egel-master/LICENSE.md   \   inflating: egel-master/NOTES.md     \   inflating: egel-master/README.md    \   inflating: egel-master/TODO.md      \   inflating: egel-master/VERSION.md   \    creating: egel-master/bugs/ \   inflating: egel-master/bugs/bug0-fixed.eg   \   inflating: egel-master/bugs/bug1
13:25:29 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; make -C src &>> buildlog
13:25:40 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; url buildlog
13:25:42 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/egel-master/buildlog
13:26:06 <HackEso> No output.
13:27:31 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; rm -v src/desugar.o; make -C src &>> buildlog # the rm is just in case the compiler got interrupted during writing the object file
13:27:32 <HackEso> rm: cannot remove 'src/desugar.o': No such file or directory
13:27:44 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; rm -vf src/desugar.o; make -C src &>> buildlog # the rm is just in case the compiler got interrupted during writing the object file
13:28:19 <HackEso> No output.
13:28:41 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; ( rm -vf src/math.o; make -C src &>> buildlog )
13:29:14 <HackEso> No output.
13:29:51 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69921&oldid=69919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+46) /* Number separation */
13:30:27 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; ( cd src; c++ --std=c++17 -Werror utils.o lexical.o operators.o syntactical.o ast.o transform.o semantical.o desugar.o lift.o emit.o builtin/system.o builtin/math.o builtin/string.o builtin/evaluate.o builtin/thread.o egel.o -ldl -lpthread -licuio -licui18n -licuuc -licudata -o egel ) &>>buildlog
13:30:32 <HackEso> No output.
13:31:56 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; f=/hackenv/tmp/egel-master/a0.eg; echo $'using System\n using Math\ndef main = (3+5)' > "$f"; cd /; /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/src/egel "$f"
13:31:57 <HackEso> 8
13:34:30 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; make -C lib/io LIBS="-ldl -lpthread -licuio -licui18n -licuuc -licudata" &>> buildlog
13:34:36 <HackEso> No output.
13:35:35 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; mkdir stag; cp -vi lib/io/io.ego src/egel stag/
13:35:36 <HackEso> cp: cannot stat 'lib/io/io.ego': No such file or directory \ 'src/egel' -> 'stag/egel'
13:39:28 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69922&oldid=69920 * Superloach * (+500) add relative hop/skp/jmp
13:39:57 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; mkdir stag; cp -vi lib/io/io.o stag/
13:39:58 <HackEso> mkdir: cannot create directory 'stag': File exists
13:40:09 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; cp -vi lib/io/io.o stag/
13:40:13 <HackEso> ​'lib/io/io.o' -> 'stag/io.o'
13:40:57 <wib_jonas> no
13:41:17 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; rm -vf stag/io.o; cp -v lib/io.ego stag/
13:41:18 <HackEso> removed 'stag/io.o' \ 'lib/io.ego' -> 'stag/io.ego'
13:41:42 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'using System\nusing Math\nusing IO\ndef main = print "hello, world"' > a0.eg; ./egel io.ego a0.eg
13:41:43 <HackEso> No output.
13:41:52 <wib_jonas> that's better, no longer an error, though it doesn't seem to print anything
13:43:51 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; (for d in io fs random regex; do make -C lib/$d LIBS="-ldl -lpthread -licuio -licui18n -licuuc -licudata"; done) &>> buildlog
13:44:17 <HackEso> No output.
13:45:03 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master; cp -vi lib/*.ego stag
13:45:04 <HackEso> cp: overwrite 'stag/io.ego'? 'lib/fs.ego' -> 'stag/fs.ego' \ 'lib/random.ego' -> 'stag/random.ego' \ 'lib/regex.ego' -> 'stag/regex.ego'
13:45:19 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'using System\nusing Math\nusing IO\ndef main = (print "hello, world", 2)' > a0.eg; ./egel io.ego a0.eg
13:45:20 <HackEso> No output.
13:46:12 <wib_jonas> oh, I think it only loads io.ego, not the second argument
13:49:59 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\ndef main = print(String:unescape"hello\\nworld")' > a0.eg; ./egel a0.eg
13:50:00 <HackEso> hello \ world
13:50:07 <wib_jonas> ^ that. I've been missing an import statement
13:50:34 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\ndef main = (print "hello\\nworld)"' > a0.eg; ./egel a0.eg
13:50:35 <HackEso> a0.eg:6:1:syntactical:) expected
13:51:15 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\n''def main = print "hello\nworld"' > a0.eg; ./egel a0.eg
13:51:16 <HackEso> hello \ world
13:51:34 <wib_jonas> ok, now I need a wrapper with a prelude, and install this thing
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14:05:14 <spruit11> It worked?
14:05:16 <spruit11> Neat.
14:11:55 <wib_jonas> spruit11: there's still the problem that the interpreter doesn't seem to accept an absolute path for the script filename. I wonder if you could fix that.
14:12:11 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\n''def main = print "hello\nworld"' > a0.eg; ./egel /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag/a0.eg
14:12:13 <HackEso> input/output:file "/hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag/a0.eg" not found
14:13:02 <wib_jonas> alternately, give a way to take the script from standard input, but without printing the prompts
14:13:07 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\n''def main = print "hello\nworld"' > a0.eg; ./egel </hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag/a0.eg
14:13:08 <HackEso> ​>> >> >> >> >> >>
14:13:24 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\n''def main = print "hello\nworld"\nmain' > a0.eg; ./egel </hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag/a0.eg
14:13:25 <HackEso> ​>> >> >> >> >> internal:1:32:syntactical:\ unexpected \ >>
14:13:34 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; cd /hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag; echo $'import "io.ego"\nusing System\nusing Math\nusing IO\n''def main = print "hello\nworld"'$'\nmain' > a0.eg; ./egel </hackenv/tmp/egel-master/stag/a0.eg
14:13:35 <HackEso> ​>> >> >> >> >> >> hello \ world>>
14:28:30 <spruit11> Try ./a0.eg?
14:28:45 <spruit11> I'll look it up.
14:29:23 <wib_jonas> spruit: ./a0.eg did work, yes. but an absolute path didn't work.
14:30:46 <wib_jonas> spruit: this is a problem because . is in the search path by default, so you can't just execute scripts with any wd, you risk accidentally running files from the wd, which could be malicious. this is not such a big problmem on HackEso of course.
14:32:08 <spruit11> Oh, right. I'll check
14:32:48 <spruit11> You're correct. Bug.
14:34:55 <spruit11> I assume I only programmed it to look at extensions of paths. I.e., only look in the -I dirs.
14:35:03 <spruit11> See if I can add a clause.
14:35:43 <wib_jonas> thanks
14:35:58 <spruit11> The code is already there but I commented it out...
14:38:08 <spruit11> Ah, I get it. The .ego files need absolute paths to run a dlopen().
14:40:40 <spruit11> Hmm, I just removed the comments and everything seems to work anyway?
14:40:43 <wib_jonas> spruit11: and .eg script files need an absolute path to open(). sure. 
14:40:58 <spruit11> I pushed the commit.
14:41:07 <spruit11> Hope it didn't break anything.
14:41:16 <spruit11> Seems to work on my end.
14:41:17 <wib_jonas> oh wait no, ignore the above one line
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14:42:28 <spruit11> egelbot: eval "[X->X]" 1
14:42:28 <egelbot> 1
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14:42:38 <spruit11> That still seems to work too.
14:42:53 <spruit11> You should be fine. *Fingers crossed*
14:44:34 <spruit11> I guess a problem might arise since Egel's -I is different from the path dlopen() uses to search for files.
14:44:42 <spruit11> But it works for now.
14:45:44 <wib_jonas> thank you
14:46:09 <spruit11> I'll hack a check on '.ego' extensions later.
14:46:23 <spruit11> np
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17:14:54 <esowiki> [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69923&oldid=69922 * Superloach * (+92) add github
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17:40:15 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69924&oldid=66632 * Matthew * (+1) 
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17:41:03 <esowiki> [[Rouedeux]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69925&oldid=69924 * Matthew * (+1) /* If statement */
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17:49:28 <int-e> . o O ( Pet peeve: People linking to PDFs on arxiv.org, rather than the abstract. )
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18:57:07 <b_jonas> `olist 1192
18:57:08 <HackEso> olist 1192: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:59:19 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69926&oldid=67223 * Wright * (+4) Updated my GitHub username
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20:43:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * WonderedLamb256 *  New user account
20:51:25 <zzo38> Does PDF or DjVu allow specifying the first page number in the document? (If so, it doesn't seems to work.) (DVI supports up to ten 32-bit numbers associated with each page; normally the first one is the page number and the restare zero.)
20:57:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: PDF definitely does, I think it allows you to specify the page number of each page
20:58:04 <esowiki> [[Chevron]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69927&oldid=69923 * Superloach * (-4558) simplify
20:58:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think postscript does this only with the EPS-like postscript comments that you use to make individual pages of the postscript viewable, not in postscript code by the way
20:58:50 <b_jonas> I don't know about DjVu
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21:00:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: that said, many PDFs of course don't have the right page numbers. eg. the version of my MSC thesis that you find online has the page numbers shifted by one.
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21:11:48 <fizzie> That's the case with my PhD thesis as well, because the printed page numbers don't count the cover, but the PDF includes the cover, and hasn't had the numbering corrected.
21:12:57 <fizzie> I think this isn't the PDF I made personally, because the cover was provided separately in the printing company's web thing, I think this PDF came out of their system.
21:13:24 <zzo38> How can I adjust the page numbers of a PDF?
21:13:27 <b_jonas> In my case I can only blame myself for this, I made the PDF
21:13:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know sadly
21:15:32 <fizzie> Well, I did make the printed numbers, I could've set those up properly. I didn't do the thing where the front matter is numbered with lowercase Roman numerals either.
21:16:07 <zzo38> You mention "the EPS-like postscript comments that you use to make individual pages of the postscript viewable", which I am guessing means DSC. I don't use DSC myself, because I use PostScript only as a programming language and not as a document storage format. Still I would think it to be sometimes useful to specify (depending on the output format), possibly by adding an entry named /PageNumber to the page device dictionary for this pur
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21:39:44 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69928&oldid=69921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Examples */
22:05:06 <b_jonas> fungot, have you ever mowed the lawn on a golf court or raked the pebbles in a castle garden?
22:05:06 <fungot> b_jonas: i include the time zone in the date that it records ( actually the sign at the current rate everyone but the implementations that you'd usually use a calculator...
22:37:42 <b_jonas> fungot, would you like some tea?
22:37:42 <fungot> b_jonas: or just about anything can be disconnected from with fnord. i rarely do. i think he is
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23:28:15 <spruit11> fizzie: Did you ever submit anything to Arxiv? I am a bit tempted to place my last musings there but it might be too lightweight.
23:28:42 <spruit11> I'll have another look at it. Maybe it's not so bad.
23:35:14 <esowiki> [[Harp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69929&oldid=42665 * Rdococ * (-2341) old and bad language of mine, wouldn't want the name to go to waste
23:35:37 <esowiki> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69930&oldid=69746 * Rdococ * (-18) 
23:36:53 <b_jonas> spruit11: I haven't submitted them, but preprints of two of my research articles are on arXiv as a coauthor submitted them there. 
23:36:57 <esowiki> [[Upsilon]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69931&oldid=51699 * Rdococ * (-3492) another bad language with a good name
23:37:22 <esowiki> [[User:Rdococ]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69932&oldid=69930 * Rdococ * (-73) 
23:39:40 <esowiki> [[Mindscrew]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69933&oldid=52877 * Rdococ * (-5142) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
23:40:00 <esowiki> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=69934&oldid=69932 * Rdococ * (-160) 
23:40:38 <spruit11> Ah, right. Scientists abound.
23:40:49 <spruit11> b_jonas: Nice.
23:41:10 <spruit11> Maybe I'll try to figure out how this all works.
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