< 1583193617 995545 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite loops like that are handled weirdly depending on who you ask. Techncially they're illegal, and playing a card that would start infinite loop is an illegal play (Pole Position comes to mind) < 1583193653 771628 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :YGO is probably not even as strong as regular expressions. < 1583193655 682777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :longname: can you have an unlimited number of tokens on the battlefield at the same time? < 1583193676 669653 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, you can have, at most 7 monsters total on the field. < 1583193702 481993 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's only under very specific circumstances (co-links) < 1583193705 128814 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hearthstone is also very much limited in board/deck space so it would suffer the same limitations < 1583193705 816651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so that's where Hearthstone got that rule from? < 1583193728 823839 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :YGO is normally 5 right? < 1583193748 491239 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 5 under normal circumstances < 1583193756 332732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: yes, Hearthstone is limited. but YGO is an older game. < 1583193760 385587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1583193825 257704 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is not much space for computation in YGO, < 1583193831 515857 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Master rule 4 introduced Extra Monster Zones, so with Link monsters you can have 7 max if both EMZs are connected by link monsters--again very specific scenario < 1583193836 727653 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, doesn't seem like it. < 1583193865 676348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1583193970 626476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: but how would it even be possible to set up a situation where you can set up a busy beaver damage loop, but no infinite damage loop? < 1583194032 79295 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the TM output tokens that couldn't attack until the TM halted. < 1583194055 644450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: sure, but why would the player choose to build that particular TM, instead of a TM... oh < 1583194067 593360 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want a combo that can only deal damage once < 1583194070 204549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's clever < 1583194083 692756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Goblin Cannon help? < 1583194099 186609 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no because it has to be in one chunk < 1583194107 118311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably no, it's not better than like a Fireball < 1583194123 574336 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some other non-permanent that deals X damage, what's the simplest one < 1583194140 937445 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does the damage have to be in one chunk? < 1583194156 158218 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the opponent would die and the game would end < 1583194168 963477 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're not going by DMM's rules for this? < 1583194186 627543 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I also don't see how you'll limit the size of the Turing Machine. < 1583194207 63896 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can set up a TM, you can probably clone the cards more times to set up a turing machine with a longer BB program and thus more damage < 1583194227 118947 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We will only have a finite amount of mana < 1583194249 825873 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes we can probably setup a VERY large TM < 1583194278 154885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heat Ray < 1583194286 620340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the canonical instant that deals X damage for XR mana < 1583194326 503419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: ok, so how will you have only a finite amount of mana, and no Omnipotence I assume, but enough mana to build up a complicated combo? < 1583194337 493049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1583194339 280691 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are slightly limited by the number of creature types (~200) but we can just implement a UTM < 1583194341 462358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does seem more easily solvable < 1583194358 206622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are some large infinite combos that involve mana < 1583194362 357852 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :large finite combos < 1583194386 881393 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heat ray is probably no good because as an instant we could inturrupt the TM's function < 1583194413 668101 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?page=97 < 1583194424 928873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Disintegrate if you want a sorcery < 1583194437 129449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assumed you'd be in a loop that you can't exit anyway, so you need an instant < 1583194454 367954 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no we want the loop to only exit if the machine halts < 1583194495 707313 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not asking you to read that whole 90+ page thread < 1583194514 646320 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but many of the "how?" questions are answere in there < 1583194611 405594 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a full writeup of what we accomplished in old standard: https://docs.google.com/document/d/174jrMcjZ8rWurGCvylWyql9cH0sAVPIXPzT0ucMq308/edit?usp=sharing < 1583194747 354982 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm FortyTwo on the forums there) < 1583194759 340136 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that name was obviouslly taken here < 1583194912 462329 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I g2g, thanks, I will check back. < 1583194916 678373 :MTGBusyBeaver!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 PART :#esoteric < 1583194946 859864 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: and you probably don't even need such complicated combos here, because you don't need a huge finite number of mana with power towers, only like a million mana, which should be easier to generate < 1583196002 854215 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583197981 695177 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzegkfojnzmswtue QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1583198963 690685 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583200047 714775 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583202891 556624 :TellsTogo!b2751b2c@178-117-27-44.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1583203538 735255 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583205020 365245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1583210204 351503 :TellsTogo!b2751b2c@178-117-27-44.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583212466 591239 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1583213642 882400 :diverger!~div@45.89.175.54 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583213836 11343 :diverger!~div@165.231.163.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583215906 675536 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583217464 32219 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583221333 365575 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583221374 32502 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583221412 963532 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1583221732 546834 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have an implementation of https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model in Magic: The Gathering. https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?comment=2434 But it seems that we might run out of creature type namespace, How big does a waterfall TM need to be to < 1583221733 42846 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode a universal TM? < 1583222671 355706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 isn't here at the moment, he's the main one who's trying to do this. < 1583222679 679725 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: ^ < 1583222757 302592 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think getting a "small" TC waterfall model may be exactly where he was stuck last i heard < 1583222899 373008 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it doesnt need to be tiny, there are 249 creature types so we get a size 124 waterfall machine < 1583223467 316838 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure that's way more than needed < 1583223482 367751 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you mean 124 clocks < 1583223545 780095 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ais523 was aiming for something small enough that he could remember it for an actual tournament < 1583223566 381007 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i figured 20-30 would be sufficient. < 1583227213 957452 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see you've been discussing on this channel before < 1583227336 320957 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : int-e: you can't really "filter" them after the fact, that's uncomputable and at least as halt as telling if a turing machine halts <-- there's a simple checkable property that ensures a TWM program never is ambiguous and which any other can be translated into < 1583227391 432659 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, if N is the number of clocks, multiply all adjustments by N, and let the clocks start with distinct values (mod N) < 1583227456 137969 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well N>=number of clocks suffices) < 1583227551 818278 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they can never become the same (mod N), so will never trigger simultaneously < 1583227622 59551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGBusyBeaver: ^ in case you still have this problem < 1583227689 597498 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ^ you too < 1583227725 741977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ais said that he's pretty sure there is a very small universal waterfall machine program, but it's hard to explicitly construct one < 1583227802 444058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for a tournament, you don't necessarily need a program with the smallest number of clocks, rather you'll need a program with a reasonable number of clocks where the numbers in the program matrix aren't too difficult to remember < 1583227843 79217 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that might be impossible < 1583228648 8321 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1583229169 286976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tournament rules have two rules relevant for this: 2.11 "Taking Notes", which says that during a game, you can't refer to notes except those taken during the game, except "Artistic modifications to cards that provide minor strategic information" with the Head Judge's permission, and I don't think a huge TWM program could count as such; < 1583229233 314610 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 5.5 "Slow Play", which I quote "Players must take their turns in a timely fashion regardless of the complexity of the play situation and adhere to time limits specified for the tournament. Players must maintain a pace to allow the match to be finished in the announced time limit. < 1583229277 835950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" which means you aren't allowed to take too much time just because before the tournament you came up with a funny strategy to create a hard to determine or even incomputable outcome < 1583229288 385685 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those artistic modifications limited to the front side of the back or can i basically play with a marked deck? < 1583229314 118009 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing what i will draw next is quite the strategic information < 1583229324 881956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: you can't mark the backs unless those marks are completely covered by an opaque sleeves, there's a separate rule for that < 1583229344 484266 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1583229354 522272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: this causes actual problems because cards and/or sleeves become worn and accidentally marked over time < 1583229373 70820 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, like in higurashi < 1583229389 762725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :chapter 3 is relevant on this < 1583229415 260716 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, previously I suggested that rule 5.2 "Bribery" may also be relevant for the Turing Machine setup, but it seems it isn't < 1583229563 26218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, these rules basically imply that to pull off the combo in a tournament, you have to be able to reconstruct it without prior notes, and do all that fast enough to fit the game or match in the time limit or before the opponent or a judge gets annoyed of you playing very slowly < 1583229726 728576 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ais523 _is_ also a speedrunner :P < 1583229953 904081 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. and there are some feats that even speedrunners can't do, because the tool-assisted speedrunners haven't found them a way to break the game completely, so they actually have to, like, play levels rather than just warp to the end < 1583229959 369720 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583229964 663968 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some games are too well programmed < 1583230069 171178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting examples are NES Super Mario Brothers, which does have some crazy bugs including wrong-warping to a world that isn't among the eight planned worlds and so behaves strangely, yet that doesn't seem to help you finish the game any faster < 1583230156 285180 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and GB Super Mario Land which is surprisingly bug-free, the only serious bugs I've seen are one that lets you defeat the world 4 boss somewhat quicker (and with a graphical glitch), and one that freezes the game in 4-4 when the star wears off < 1583230175 248199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing that would let you skip levels or warp to the end of the game < 1583230192 389642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg bye < 1583230193 747951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-39.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1583233005 150573 :ddmm_!atrapmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mcwwvykiocubqqag QUIT :Quit: killed < 1583233005 457117 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kijgoanadpdjjmcp QUIT :Quit: killed < 1583233010 467139 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kszpummbxhoztbro QUIT :Quit: killed < 1583233023 680616 :xavo[m]!undersco1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gfbhttnxjrbdyeyb QUIT :Quit: killed < 1583233035 151137 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xloafmsaqqcxywxr QUIT :Quit: killed < 1583233233 538988 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but nothing that would let you skip levels or warp to the end of the game gtg bye => b_jonas warped to the end of the conversation < 1583233946 449953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Warping... < 1583234562 930509 :xavo[m]!undersco1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-lrczudthtmccfkno JOIN :#esoteric < 1583234883 739918 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583235437 677531 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583236434 272881 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583236528 274431 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583237161 472627 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qvguzhyimgduqtfd JOIN :#esoteric < 1583237161 533112 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xrseritmmdrzkuij JOIN :#esoteric < 1583237161 548969 :ddmm_!atrapmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rojfynuijpngpoib JOIN :#esoteric < 1583237161 586367 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qrygogbmdrkjnbiv JOIN :#esoteric < 1583238831 343016 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emmgzstlwjibdamq JOIN :#esoteric < 1583239663 678648 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583240011 672003 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric > 1583242259 571873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70107&oldid=70009 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+132) 10/* Loop while no input program */ > 1583242484 933786 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70108&oldid=70056 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+83) 10/* Examples */ Reordering + new example > 1583243016 423575 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70109&oldid=70108 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Loop while no input */ < 1583243787 397655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1583243799 876213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1583244139 678200 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1583244845 511211 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583244916 766812 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583245212 789931 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1583245222 51528 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583245241 63436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the Ponder This February challenge is closed. :) < 1583245256 254613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "intended solution" is funny. < 1583245613 51367 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1583245720 922871 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1583246514 728745 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: The main trick to getting close to the target is that the game is amenable to being split in the middle; if you have snakes leaving five consecutive squares n-5..n-1, and confine all other snakes and ladders to the resulting two parts of the board, you can simply add the expected number of moves to reach square n, and the expected number of moves to get from there to 100. So you can... < 1583246520 736573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...meet in the middle: tabulate solutions for one part of the board, and then go through solutions for the right part and find the best candidates to complete it with a binary search. < 1583246556 56960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: So it's not *just* brute force, and that made this problem interesting :) < 1583246605 616187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hi to you too (: < 1583246638 537712 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: :P (no, you don't have to reply to that. I singled you out because I know you at least looked at the problem briefly :P) < 1583246674 999872 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I’m coughing :D < 1583246761 54134 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583248119 895553 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1583248703 9977 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :{Hot Red King Calamity} < 1583248703 179646 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :{Hot Red King Calamity} < 1583248707 287629 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1583248713 341715 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did not mean to paste < 1583249065 556769 :MTGBusyBeaver!4c69b9e2@c-76-105-185-226.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1583250200 525069 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07XENBLN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70110&oldid=70109 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+11) 10/* Loop while no input */ < 1583251791 754760 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1583252403 678978 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583252564 669554 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583254592 75070 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1583254763 676670 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583254990 641215 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emmgzstlwjibdamq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1583256583 690320 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1583256660 699850 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1583257385 888528 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my laziness again ends up in that I want to program something but I’m bored and don’t want anything coming to my mind < 1583257400 975538 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that’s unhealthy < 1583257561 855402 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583257718 121113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I have plenty of ways to make this worse if you're intestested. < 1583257745 367404 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583257945 139402 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: :) for example? < 1583257990 561677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: webcomics, project euler, various youtubes < 1583258053 532229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example I've watched way too much "8 out of 10 cats does Countdown" episodes recently) < 1583258144 996724 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don’t know what that is. I suppose I shouldn’t check? < 1583258226 523846 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :project euler => ah. You wouldn’t believe but I hadn’t tried anything like this either, though I considered why not (and then proceeded with the not) < 1583258228 769611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's a mock version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show) < 1583258264 736993 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I see < 1583258298 840404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: so it's pretty harmless (and, to me at least, entertaining), but it takes time, of course. < 1583258484 452445 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1583258484 994486 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mhidsnyqhjjuopci JOIN :#esoteric < 1583258541 517229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: and if all else fails you can get into a fight with some stupid person on ##math :P < 1583258562 424497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Living the dream: https://xkcd.com/386/ < 1583258633 856234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It won't make you feel any better, it'll just make you older. :P < 1583258925 912077 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah arguing with people over the fact their approach to divide by zero isn’t sensible is quite unbearable these times < 1583259029 175055 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m only glad I haven’t stuck myself even once in an argument about parity of zero < 1583259061 285036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero is even. two is the odd prime. that seems to exhaust the topic ;) < 1583259128 999340 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even these times I still rarely make a grave mistake on a local forum and only then realize what I’ve done and that it’s already written in the furniture of space-time < 1583259132 189661 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, fabric < 1583259155 483085 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zero is even. two is the odd prime. that seems to exhaust the topic ;) => what about primality of one? < 1583259201 685848 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, there are of course many far weirder things to argue about with strange people, of course < 1583259223 374567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: every definition of primes I've ever seen excluded 1. :P < 1583259243 276937 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I agree it shouldn’t be prime < 1583259269 56561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly this is far less contentious than the question whether 0 is a natural number, or whether 0^0 should be 1 or undefined. < 1583259350 934075 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main fallacy of why people want to have 1 prime is that they don’t sufficiently understand the theorem about prime decomposition and can’t see why “prime vs. composite” is a false dichotomy < 1583259376 399814 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583259419 29228 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : interestingly this is far less contentious than the question whether 0 is a natural number, or whether 0^0 should be 1 or undefined. => ah, yeah, just about anyone has a strong opinion on these (mine are yes and 1, resp.) < 1583259544 157234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst discussions are usually those about 0.999... = 1 though, because invariably the people arguing don't have a firm enough grasp on the definition of the reals and the alternatives to have a meaningful discussion about this. < 1583259589 798508 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately the historic tradition in here is to exclude zero. Then they say “ah your CS and set theory and whatnot may benefit from a natural zero, but don’t you touch our analysis and here, take our beloved limit of x^y for several different bases) < 1583259601 377950 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583259619 442969 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, 0.(9) = 1 is a sad thing, yes < 1583259689 252184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Decimal expansions with digits indexed by a non-standard model of the natural numbers. ) < 1583259691 669418 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems I forgot to close the quote, here now” < 1583259733 193405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe 0 is slowly winning over mathematicians as well. < 1583259794 747617 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric : . o O ( Decimal expansions with digits indexed by a non-standard model of the natural numbers. ) => yeah I thought about that a few times but didn’t think it would lead to something not already known < 1583259960 674177 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1583259970 583792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: My favorite idea involves surreal numbers, but decimal expansions are not adequate for describing those. < 1583260096 809881 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: BTW don’t you know how these compare to Puiseux series? I think the latter were a smaller set? < 1583260217 90478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that... fancy. But they are a set. (Surreal numbers are a proper class.) < 1583260261 127959 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is one of the facets that makes them surreal.) < 1583260305 159581 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1583260585 96122 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Surreal numbers are a proper class.) => ah yeah I forgot about that, that settles it < 1583260828 142905 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1583261385 879780 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583261456 232679 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583261852 557513 :MTGBusyBeaver2!c73b3502@199.59.53.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583261911 292577 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1583262393 51037 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583262411 665037 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583262694 176378 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03FortyTwo 5* 10New user account < 1583263917 751803 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric's <=> #math for some time now < 1583263934 221821 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-161.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :more arghj < 1583263954 104865 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1583263988 738508 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet again I'm doing useless brainfuck stuff instead of taking on something that has sense < 1583263999 194046 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrapping my head on implementing an itoa-like hex mechanism < 1583264054 313631 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd really like to do this without reversing but I'm a bit worried to have my taperam smashed when the number's big enough if I start from the end < 1583264086 653107 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mean is it worth it to support bignum brainfuck interpreters being 0.00001% of the total < 1583264615 6235 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583264727 422159 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1583264783 488441 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1583265181 40860 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70111&oldid=70076 5* 03FortyTwo 5* (+209) 10 > 1583265202 444763 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70112&oldid=68770 5* 03FortyTwo 5* (+806) 10/* The Waterfall Model UTM */ new section > 1583265213 424607 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70113&oldid=70112 5* 03FortyTwo 5* (+84) 10/* The Waterfall Model UTM */ < 1583265532 424559 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583266441 413547 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583266787 615523 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1583267757 179594 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583267851 413791 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1583268988 422858 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lisp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70114&oldid=69409 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10fiX grammar < 1583269023 981213 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583269256 314462 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583269444 627219 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1583269505 770074 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1583271410 446577 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1583272909 404739 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70115 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2697) 10No name yet.. > 1583274566 30986 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iflang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70116 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+1386) 10Created page with "Iflang is a language created in 2020 by [[User:Hanzlu]]. The memory consists of two cells, both containing 1 bit each. The language is supposed to be useless. {| class="wikit..." < 1583274663 11867 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” > 1583274697 439700 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iflang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70117&oldid=70116 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+45) 10 > 1583274815 829559 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Iflang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70118&oldid=70117 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+0) 10 > 1583275966 789647 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ALIMBIHNN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70119 5* 03Hanzlu 5* (+7106) 10Created page with "A Language I Made But It Has No Name import random import time file = open("code", "r") code = file.read() userfile = "" usercode = "" userptr = 0 useropen = Fals..." < 1583275985 208435 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1583275990 720737 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1583276447 353142 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mhidsnyqhjjuopci QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1583279898 800077 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection