←2020-03-02 2020-03-03 2020-03-04→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:00:17 <longname> Infinite loops like that are handled weirdly depending on who you ask. Techncially they're illegal, and playing a card that would start infinite loop is an illegal play (Pole Position comes to mind)
00:00:53 <MTGBusyBeaver> YGO is probably not even as strong as regular expressions.
00:00:55 <b_jonas> longname: can you have an unlimited number of tokens on the battlefield at the same time?
00:01:16 <longname> Nope, you can have, at most 7 monsters total on the field.
00:01:42 <longname> and that's only under very specific circumstances (co-links)
00:01:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> Hearthstone is also very much limited in board/deck space so it would suffer the same limitations
00:01:45 <b_jonas> oh, so that's where Hearthstone got that rule from?
00:02:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> YGO is normally 5 right?
00:02:28 <longname> Yeah, 5 under normal circumstances
00:02:36 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: yes, Hearthstone is limited. but YGO is an older game.
00:02:40 <b_jonas> I see
00:03:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> so there is not much space for computation in YGO,
00:03:51 <longname> Master rule 4 introduced Extra Monster Zones, so with Link monsters you can have 7 max if both EMZs are connected by link monsters--again very specific scenario
00:03:56 <longname> Yeah, doesn't seem like it.
00:04:25 <b_jonas> oh well
00:06:10 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: but how would it even be possible to set up a situation where you can set up a busy beaver damage loop, but no infinite damage loop?
00:07:12 <MTGBusyBeaver> If the TM output tokens that couldn't attack until the TM halted.
00:07:35 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: sure, but why would the player choose to build that particular TM, instead of a TM... oh
00:07:47 <b_jonas> you want a combo that can only deal damage once
00:07:50 <b_jonas> that's clever
00:08:03 <b_jonas> does Goblin Cannon help?
00:08:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> no because it has to be in one chunk
00:08:27 <b_jonas> probably no, it's not better than like a Fireball
00:08:43 <b_jonas> or some other non-permanent that deals X damage, what's the simplest one
00:09:00 <b_jonas> why does the damage have to be in one chunk?
00:09:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> because the opponent would die and the game would end
00:09:28 <b_jonas> oh, you're not going by DMM's rules for this?
00:09:46 <b_jonas> though I also don't see how you'll limit the size of the Turing Machine.
00:10:07 <b_jonas> if you can set up a TM, you can probably clone the cards more times to set up a turing machine with a longer BB program and thus more damage
00:10:27 <MTGBusyBeaver> We will only have a finite amount of mana
00:10:49 <MTGBusyBeaver> and yes we can probably setup a VERY large TM
00:11:18 <b_jonas> Heat Ray
00:11:26 <b_jonas> that's the canonical instant that deals X damage for XR mana
00:12:06 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: ok, so how will you have only a finite amount of mana, and no Omnipotence I assume, but enough mana to build up a complicated combo?
00:12:17 <b_jonas> hmm
00:12:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> We are slightly limited by the number of creature types (~200) but we can just implement a UTM
00:12:21 <b_jonas> that does seem more easily solvable
00:12:38 <b_jonas> because there are some large infinite combos that involve mana
00:12:42 <b_jonas> large finite combos
00:13:06 <MTGBusyBeaver> heat ray is probably no good because as an instant we could inturrupt the TM's function
00:13:33 <MTGBusyBeaver> https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?page=97
00:13:44 <b_jonas> well Disintegrate if you want a sorcery
00:13:57 <b_jonas> but I assumed you'd be in a loop that you can't exit anyway, so you need an instant
00:14:14 <MTGBusyBeaver> no we want the loop to only exit if the machine halts
00:14:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> not asking you to read that whole 90+ page thread
00:15:14 <MTGBusyBeaver> but many of the "how?" questions are answere in there
00:16:51 <MTGBusyBeaver> for a full writeup of what we accomplished in old standard: https://docs.google.com/document/d/174jrMcjZ8rWurGCvylWyql9cH0sAVPIXPzT0ucMq308/edit?usp=sharing
00:19:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> (I'm FortyTwo on the forums there)
00:19:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> but that name was obviouslly taken here
00:21:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> anyway I g2g, thanks, I will check back.
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00:22:26 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: and you probably don't even need such complicated combos here, because you don't need a huge finite number of mana with power towers, only like a million mana, which should be easier to generate
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07:48:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> I think I have an implementation of https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model in Magic: The Gathering. https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?comment=2434 But it seems that we might run out of creature type namespace, How big does a waterfall TM need to be to
07:48:53 <MTGBusyBeaver> encode a universal TM?
08:04:31 <oerjan> ais523 isn't here at the moment, he's the main one who's trying to do this.
08:04:39 <oerjan> MTGBusyBeaver: ^
08:05:57 <oerjan> although i think getting a "small" TC waterfall model may be exactly where he was stuck last i heard
08:08:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> Well it doesnt need to be tiny, there are 249 creature types so we get a size 124 waterfall machine
08:17:47 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that's way more than needed
08:18:02 <oerjan> assuming you mean 124 clocks
08:19:05 <oerjan> i think ais523 was aiming for something small enough that he could remember it for an actual tournament
08:19:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, i figured 20-30 would be sufficient.
09:20:13 <oerjan> oh i see you've been discussing on this channel before
09:22:16 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: you can't really "filter" them after the fact, that's uncomputable and at least as halt as telling if a turing machine halts <-- there's a simple checkable property that ensures a TWM program never is ambiguous and which any other can be translated into
09:23:11 <oerjan> basically, if N is the number of clocks, multiply all adjustments by N, and let the clocks start with distinct values (mod N)
09:24:16 <oerjan> (well N>=number of clocks suffices)
09:25:51 <oerjan> then they can never become the same (mod N), so will never trigger simultaneously
09:27:02 <oerjan> MTGBusyBeaver: ^ in case you still have this problem
09:28:09 <oerjan> int-e: ^ you too
09:28:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: ais said that he's pretty sure there is a very small universal waterfall machine program, but it's hard to explicitly construct one
09:30:02 <b_jonas> but for a tournament, you don't necessarily need a program with the smallest number of clocks, rather you'll need a program with a reasonable number of clocks where the numbers in the program matrix aren't too difficult to remember
09:30:43 <b_jonas> and that might be impossible
09:44:08 <oerjan> hm.
09:52:49 <b_jonas> the tournament rules have two rules relevant for this: 2.11 "Taking Notes", which says that during a game, you can't refer to notes except those taken during the game, except "Artistic modifications to cards that provide minor strategic information" with the Head Judge's permission, and I don't think a huge TWM program could count as such;
09:53:53 <b_jonas> and 5.5 "Slow Play", which I quote "Players must take their turns in a timely fashion regardless of the complexity of the play situation and adhere to time limits specified for the tournament. Players must maintain a pace to allow the match to be finished in the announced time limit.
09:54:37 <b_jonas> " which means you aren't allowed to take too much time just because before the tournament you came up with a funny strategy to create a hard to determine or even incomputable outcome
09:54:48 <myname> are those artistic modifications limited to the front side of the back or can i basically play with a marked deck?
09:55:14 <myname> knowing what i will draw next is quite the strategic information
09:55:24 <b_jonas> myname: you can't mark the backs unless those marks are completely covered by an opaque sleeves, there's a separate rule for that
09:55:44 <myname> :(
09:55:54 <b_jonas> myname: this causes actual problems because cards and/or sleeves become worn and accidentally marked over time
09:56:13 <myname> yeah, like in higurashi
09:56:29 <b_jonas> chapter 3 is relevant on this
09:56:55 <b_jonas> anyway, previously I suggested that rule 5.2 "Bribery" may also be relevant for the Turing Machine setup, but it seems it isn't
09:59:23 <b_jonas> anyway, these rules basically imply that to pull off the combo in a tournament, you have to be able to reconstruct it without prior notes, and do all that fast enough to fit the game or match in the time limit or before the opponent or a judge gets annoyed of you playing very slowly
10:02:06 <oerjan> well ais523 _is_ also a speedrunner :P
10:05:53 <b_jonas> yes. and there are some feats that even speedrunners can't do, because the tool-assisted speedrunners haven't found them a way to break the game completely, so they actually have to, like, play levels rather than just warp to the end
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10:06:04 <b_jonas> some games are too well programmed
10:07:49 <b_jonas> interesting examples are NES Super Mario Brothers, which does have some crazy bugs including wrong-warping to a world that isn't among the eight planned worlds and so behaves strangely, yet that doesn't seem to help you finish the game any faster
10:09:16 <b_jonas> and GB Super Mario Land which is surprisingly bug-free, the only serious bugs I've seen are one that lets you defeat the world 4 boss somewhat quicker (and with a graphical glitch), and one that freezes the game in 4-4 when the star wears off
10:09:35 <b_jonas> but nothing that would let you skip levels or warp to the end of the game
10:09:52 <b_jonas> gtg bye
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11:00:33 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but nothing that would let you skip levels or warp to the end of the game <b_jonas> gtg bye => b_jonas warped to the end of the conversation
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13:56:39 <b_jonas> argh
14:02:19 <rain1> hi
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14:20:41 <int-e> Ah, the Ponder This February challenge is closed. :)
14:20:56 <int-e> The "intended solution" is funny.
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14:41:54 <int-e> arseniiv: The main trick to getting close to the target is that the game is amenable to being split in the middle; if you have snakes leaving five consecutive squares n-5..n-1, and confine all other snakes and ladders to the resulting two parts of the board, you can simply add the expected number of moves to reach square n, and the expected number of moves to get from there to 100. So you can...
14:42:00 <int-e> ...meet in the middle: tabulate solutions for one part of the board, and then go through solutions for the right part and find the best candidates to complete it with a binary search.
14:42:36 <int-e> arseniiv: So it's not *just* brute force, and that made this problem interesting :)
14:43:25 <arseniiv> int-e: hi to you too (:
14:43:58 <int-e> arseniiv: :P (no, you don't have to reply to that. I singled you out because I know you at least looked at the problem briefly :P)
14:44:34 <arseniiv> now I’m coughing :D
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15:18:23 <longname> {Hot Red King Calamity}
15:18:23 <longname> {Hot Red King Calamity}
15:18:27 <longname> woah
15:18:33 <longname> did not mean to paste
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17:43:05 <arseniiv> my laziness again ends up in that I want to program something but I’m bored and don’t want anything coming to my mind
17:43:20 <arseniiv> that’s unhealthy
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17:48:38 <int-e> arseniiv: I have plenty of ways to make this worse if you're intestested.
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17:52:25 <arseniiv> int-e: :) for example?
17:53:10 <int-e> arseniiv: webcomics, project euler, various youtubes
17:54:13 <int-e> (For example I've watched way too much "8 out of 10 cats does Countdown" episodes recently)
17:55:44 <arseniiv> don’t know what that is. I suppose I shouldn’t check?
17:57:06 <arseniiv> project euler => ah. You wouldn’t believe but I hadn’t tried anything like this either, though I considered why not (and then proceeded with the not)
17:57:08 <int-e> arseniiv: it's a mock version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show)
17:57:44 <arseniiv> int-e: I see
17:58:18 <int-e> arseniiv: so it's pretty harmless (and, to me at least, entertaining), but it takes time, of course.
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18:02:21 <int-e> arseniiv: and if all else fails you can get into a fight with some stupid person on ##math :P
18:02:42 <int-e> Living the dream: https://xkcd.com/386/
18:03:53 <int-e> It won't make you feel any better, it'll just make you older. :P
18:08:45 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah arguing with people over the fact their approach to divide by zero isn’t sensible is quite unbearable these times
18:10:29 <arseniiv> I’m only glad I haven’t stuck myself even once in an argument about parity of zero
18:11:01 <int-e> zero is even. two is the odd prime. that seems to exhaust the topic ;)
18:12:08 <arseniiv> but even these times I still rarely make a grave mistake on a local forum and only then realize what I’ve done and that it’s already written in the furniture of space-time
18:12:12 <arseniiv> I mean, fabric
18:12:35 <arseniiv> <int-e> zero is even. two is the odd prime. that seems to exhaust the topic ;) => what about primality of one?
18:13:21 <arseniiv> though, there are of course many far weirder things to argue about with strange people, of course
18:13:43 <int-e> arseniiv: every definition of primes I've ever seen excluded 1. :P
18:14:03 <arseniiv> yeah I agree it shouldn’t be prime
18:14:29 <int-e> interestingly this is far less contentious than the question whether 0 is a natural number, or whether 0^0 should be 1 or undefined.
18:15:50 <arseniiv> I think the main fallacy of why people want to have 1 prime is that they don’t sufficiently understand the theorem about prime decomposition and can’t see why “prime vs. composite” is a false dichotomy
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18:16:59 <arseniiv> <int-e> interestingly this is far less contentious than the question whether 0 is a natural number, or whether 0^0 should be 1 or undefined. => ah, yeah, just about anyone has a strong opinion on these (mine are yes and 1, resp.)
18:19:04 <int-e> The worst discussions are usually those about 0.999... = 1 though, because invariably the people arguing don't have a firm enough grasp on the definition of the reals and the alternatives to have a meaningful discussion about this.
18:19:49 <arseniiv> unfortunately the historic tradition in here is to exclude zero. Then they say “ah your CS and set theory and whatnot may benefit from a natural zero, but don’t you touch our analysis and here, take our beloved limit of x^y for several different bases)
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18:20:19 <arseniiv> oh, 0.(9) = 1 is a sad thing, yes
18:21:29 <int-e> . o O ( Decimal expansions with digits indexed by a non-standard model of the natural numbers. )
18:21:31 <arseniiv> it seems I forgot to close the quote, here now”
18:22:13 <int-e> I believe 0 is slowly winning over mathematicians as well.
18:23:14 <arseniiv> <int-e> . o O ( Decimal expansions with digits indexed by a non-standard model of the natural numbers. ) => yeah I thought about that a few times but didn’t think it would lead to something not already known
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18:26:10 <int-e> arseniiv: My favorite idea involves surreal numbers, but decimal expansions are not adequate for describing those.
18:28:16 <arseniiv> int-e: BTW don’t you know how these compare to Puiseux series? I think the latter were a smaller set?
18:30:17 <int-e> What's that... fancy. But they are a set. (Surreal numbers are a proper class.)
18:31:01 <int-e> (Which is one of the facets that makes them surreal.)
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18:36:25 <arseniiv> (Surreal numbers are a proper class.) => ah yeah I forgot about that, that settles it
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19:11:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FortyTwo * New user account
19:31:57 <kspalaiologos> #esoteric's <=> #math for some time now
19:32:14 <b_jonas> more arghj
19:32:34 <kspalaiologos> :p
19:33:08 <kspalaiologos> yet again I'm doing useless brainfuck stuff instead of taking on something that has sense
19:33:19 <kspalaiologos> wrapping my head on implementing an itoa-like hex mechanism
19:34:14 <kspalaiologos> i'd really like to do this without reversing but I'm a bit worried to have my taperam smashed when the number's big enough if I start from the end
19:34:46 <kspalaiologos> but I mean is it worth it to support bignum brainfuck interpreters being 0.00001% of the total
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19:53:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70111&oldid=70076 * FortyTwo * (+209)
19:53:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70112&oldid=68770 * FortyTwo * (+806) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */ new section
19:53:33 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70113&oldid=70112 * FortyTwo * (+84) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */
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