< 1583454143 400312 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:f4e1:ee31:508f:9812 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1583455275 877453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70183&oldid=70166 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+12) 10/* D */
< 1583455712 866731 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
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< 1583456668 756403 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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< 1583459605 391331 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1583459626 155994 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583459641 808918 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583461020 764885 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-005-215-076.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1583461046 759800 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-005-215-076.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583463677 334790 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like or hate daylight saving time? I don't like daylight saving time.
< 1583463699 938563 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beckett wrote "The costs of DST outweigh the benefits. But if a significant majority of people really want that extra hour of daylight in the summer, just leave the whole country on DST year-round. I prefer standard time, but Ill be happy to compromise if it means not losing an hour every spring."
< 1583463737 914150 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with Beckett; I also prefer standard time, but permanent DST would still be better than changing it all of the time
< 1583463756 641129 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that changing time zone twice a year is stupid
< 1583463770 450832 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't formed an opinion on which of the two time zones would be better for permanent use
< 1583463845 997736 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: did you know that Spain changed to Central European Time during WW2, and never changed back, with the result that in western Spain during the summer the sun doesn't set until after 10 PM?
< 1583463886 682041 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Spain#/media/File:Tzdiff-Europe-summer.png
< 1583463960 676986 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think standard time would be better, for use with sundials, so that it is based on noon/midnight (I don't know what is Beckett's reasoning for preferring standard time). However, either way will work as long as there is agreement what time it is, so that if something is scheduled for "five o'clock" then you will know when it is, and so on.
< 1583463978 169625 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not know that about Spain. Now I do know.
< 1583465101 227931 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not know that about Spain. Now I do know.
< 1583465173 964592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PART :#esoteric
< 1583466314 49618 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583466593 59762 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1583470888 227314 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1583470906 677370 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583472717 350103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583472815 773337 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-95-129.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1583474466 631108 :stux-!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583474572 257237 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1583474707 206594 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1583475016 244553 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/merge14]]4 merge10 02 5* 03Oerjan 5* 10merged [[02User:DINAC10]] into [[DINAC]] (revisions up to 20200305175450): Fix history after cut and paste move
> 1583475229 166240 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Oerjan 5* 10deleted "[[02User:DINAC10]]": Remains of cut-and-paste move; history merged into [[DINAC]]
< 1583475261 985053 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that was easier than I thought
< 1583475310 370889 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :only hitch is that the history says nothing about why the name is now DINAC rather than User:DINAC
< 1583476107 344946 :vertrex-!~vertrex@unaffiliated/vertrex JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583476176 242110 :vertrex!~vertrex@unaffiliated/vertrex QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1583476253 818309 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Oerjan 5* 10deleted "[[02User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)10]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "#REDIRECT [[User:DINAC]]"
< 1583476504 175911 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am working on adding some more stuff to bystand, including a scoring function. (This might be the only NNTP client which uses both a interactive line-oriented interface and SQLite, and may also be the only one to use SQL as its customization language.)
< 1583476728 253748 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course, these would not be the features everyone wants, but that is OK, because there are many alternatives.)
> 1583476839 834720 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Voltage200714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70184 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+98) 10Created page with "Feel free to add any comments or complaints by editing the page. You ''can'' edit the page, right?"
> 1583478814 433279 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alchemy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70185&oldid=36118 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+203) 10
< 1583479297 274065 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d9df:c0e6:7635:140a JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583479605 280934 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d9df:c0e6:7635:140a QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1583480760 420957 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583480829 679951 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583480878 209409 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1583480878 774202 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1583482289 288306 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9d02:5314:b6d0:fb4f JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583482569 286697 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9d02:5314:b6d0:fb4f QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1583482837 321225 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:a81a:7000:1dea:9e42 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583484629 137869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-86.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1583485471 368814 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1583486639 740341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`"
< 1583486643 578124 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:1034) kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op \ 4) GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
< 1583486961 755937 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583487520 565378 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1583487548 635665 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583487709 647086 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming lingonberry design, development, and deployment
< 1583487847 765738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1583488116 871769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do you like bat buns?
< 1583488117 23691 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: and that information may or may not be covered there? like oop, but after a while
< 1583489162 852858 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1583489173 839735 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION read that as bat puns
< 1583489182 769585 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? banana
< 1583489184 302239 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bananananananana BATMAN!
< 1583489245 258742 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you are halfway there
< 1583489285 456603 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583489603 942619 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :living on a prayer
< 1583489634 415759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely by now you've found the "bad pun".
< 1583489736 937343 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY
< 1583489767 345716 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :google images gives a split between cupcakes, hairstyle and furrydom
< 1583489792 6773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're overcomplicating this.
< 1583489901 868476 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also some rabbits dressed for halloween
< 1583489941 405140 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely. what otherway is there to handle it?
< 1583489948 109094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+
< 1583490306 454628 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not complaining.
< 1583490324 786813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is free entertainment :P
< 1583490742 954114 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know where the NTM came from in that MtG thing.
< 1583490769 637839 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the same place the bat buns came from, huh.
< 1583490881 997276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NTM is in the hypothetical play where the opponent tries to find a way to make the deck deal unbounded damage.
< 1583490948 755068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the thing is constructed such that damage is all dealt in the end, so for it to happen, the intermediate simulated TMs must all terminate.
< 1583490996 839359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you get the behavior that non-terminating runs are discarded.
< 1583491065 50042 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is uncomputable, of course, but that doesn't seem to matter for this hypothetical?
< 1583491117 866816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah.
< 1583491129 118525 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1583491132 396692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hypothetical is just to show that there is an upper bound.
< 1583491150 985969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares that we'll never know what it is.
< 1583491215 8789 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you still have to play the actual busy beaver game to actually deal huge amounts of damage.
< 1583491330 983227 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So basically what's happening here is that they're trying to build an M:tG deck that can deal any conceivable amount of money, for a very wide range of "conceivable".
< 1583491374 543614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it again.
< 1583491400 304627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "amount" and "money" are tightly linked in my brain.
< 1583491401 757102 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/
< 1583492679 769304 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woah, xkcd... title=""
< 1583492868 847681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583492991 764966 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583495013 326401 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcdkyalqzlqywivb JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583496204 102705 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be wrong but I also thought there was a limit of something like 125 water clocks, i.e. a MtG hand corresponds to a The Waterfall Model program with 125 water clocks. In that case, I would say that the maximum damage a MtG hand can do, is literally BBtwm(125), where BBtwm is a version of the busy beaver function adapted to The Waterfall Model.
< 1583496242 542066 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally that number, because that number is literally asking "what's the largest number you can compute with this number of water clocks".
< 1583496263 570594 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye!
< 1583496275 422253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :124, I think
< 1583496284 905810 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583496309 831504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure that's correct.
< 1583496351 694012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 124 is what restricts the universal machine that they implement.
< 1583496376 185063 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1583496434 248692 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they want to simulate some other machine with that UTM there's the question of how they get the description of that other machine, into the UTM
< 1583496529 294281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's guessed.
< 1583496588 725331 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By a person, and then encoded as waterclocks?
< 1583496606 962461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Or by hypothetical play.
< 1583496651 876369 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in actual play, you need to find a busy beaver. But for hypothetical play you actually get the busy beaver function as an upper bound in the end.
< 1583496692 403325 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er
< 1583496752 57315 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual play: The player sets up a terminating TM of bounded size by making corresponding choices. It is run; the number of steps (or something like that) that it runs for turn into damage at the end.
< 1583496797 514724 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothetical play: We consider all the possible TMs. But only those that terminate produce any damage. So there's an upper bound, given by the busy beaver function.
< 1583496804 902637 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A TM implemented with 124 water clocks can compute BBtwm(124) and no larger, even if said TM is a UTM and someone guesses a good TM for that UTM to simulate
< 1583496822 845539 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You're forgetting that the outside is nondeterministic.
< 1583496832 138548 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583496881 629926 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that means
< 1583496934 81252 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to model "hypothetical play" as an NTM, that's what confuses and bugs me
< 1583497035 966336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :None of this really works without non-determinism.
< 1583497053 97059 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because then you couldn't externalize the TM definition from the program.
< 1583497113 657328 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything really MtG-specific to this problem? Part of it is that I don't want to guess what rules there are in that game, because I don't play it.
< 1583497142 988174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I suggested yesterday, we're doing something like this: NTM A(n): *guess* a TM B of size m. Run B to completion, counting steps. Return number of steps taken.
< 1583497192 763692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, n, not m.
< 1583497214 779547 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to "guess" a TM. Rather just say: let B be the TM of size n which terminates and takes the largest number of steps to do so of any TM of size n.
< 1583497217 875143 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No NTM needed!
< 1583497249 733245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the variant that computes BB(BB(n)): NTM A'(n): *guess* a TM B of size n. Run B to completion, counting steps. Let m be the number of steps taken. *guess* a TM C of size m. Run C to completion, counting steps. Return number of steps taken.
< 1583497341 613971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: guessing is essential to escape the fact that the busiest beavers cannot be found effectively.
< 1583497384 488625 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why "guess" when you can stipulate?
< 1583497398 598770 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because then you can't implement it at all.
< 1583497422 888356 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want to "implement" hypothetical play?
< 1583497445 636350 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody's *actually* computing busiest beavers here. The busiest beavers just materialize in a proof that the value we get is bounded.
< 1583497490 273251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as long as the play is hypothetical, we can actually have those busiest beavers.
< 1583497500 135306 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Our hand of cards represents a TM, so the largest damage we can do is a busy beaver number" pretty much follows from the definition of busy beaver function.
< 1583497527 784094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No.
< 1583497566 609735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you absolutely want to avoid the NTM angel (personally I find it tremendously helpful), you have to allow input instead.
< 1583497577 599126 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :angle
< 1583497587 605138 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't type at all anymore.
< 1583497619 191676 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :speling errros evryerhawe...
< 1583497693 287329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And the matter of the fact is that we can have a fixed *N*TM without input of small size that computes the busy beaver function for a much higher number of states.
< 1583497711 122097 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is maddening
< 1583497753 837029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do know about Universal Turing Machines, right?
< 1583497765 744239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a break.
< 1583497898 92630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I should make the idea concrete at least: NTM BB_googol: *guess* a TM A with 10^100 states. Use an UTM to run it to completion, counting steps. Return number of steps taken.
< 1583497949 215276 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And recall that the model of computation here maximizes the output of all the possible runs that terminate.
< 1583498079 996140 :stux-!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :Quit: Aloha!
< 1583498136 921105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The corresponding TM would instead have to take the description of the TM of size 10^100 as input. By virtue of having input, it's not bounded by the busy beaver function.
< 1583498151 238080 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583498154 2519 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you trying to say that BB numbers on NTMs can be much larger than BB numbers for DTMs? If so, I don't disagree.
< 1583498236 313009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so.
< 1583498248 464301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, then we're *definitely* not talking about BB for TWM here anymore.
< 1583498265 831044 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But something like BB for M:tG.
< 1583498291 728184 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, whenever I wrote "busy beaver" I meant DTM ones.
< 1583498470 157948 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still lost. I think I'll just resign.
< 1583498550 471977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Can you see what that BB_googol thing does and that the result is BB(10^100) where BB is the standard busy beaver function for DTMs?
< 1583498620 796394 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I did, but I guess not.
< 1583498650 681566 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1583498665 216017 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather: BB_googol is just a NTM for computing BB(10^100) but why do we need that?
< 1583498672 552782 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can just say BB(10^100), we know what it means
< 1583498694 697369 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This NTM doesn't relate to anything in the model we're working with
< 1583498717 955916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well the point is that the NTM can be written up as a program, and perhaps translated to a deck of cards.
< 1583498741 934190 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not unless the cards are played nondeterministically somehow
< 1583498753 785812 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I understand about MtG, they're not, but I don't play that game
< 1583498800 607116 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can talk about "all possibly plays of a hand of cards" without using an NTM
< 1583498801 602996 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point is that BB(10^100) is an upper bound on the possible outputs of terminating runs.
< 1583498810 748407 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possible
< 1583498813 43466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that, BB(10^100) will never materialize.
< 1583498851 872433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The choices that set up the TM are made during play though.
< 1583498868 495057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the NTM model matches the actual play much more closely than a TM with input.
< 1583498950 992403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course, in real play, the player will just use the best TM they can prove termination of, not the busy beaver. (And I should probably allow TMs of size less than 10^100 as well :P)
< 1583498986 124441 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But but but
< 1583499011 325251 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So frustrating.
< 1583499023 309035 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(n) is a function on a *set of Turing machines*, yes?
< 1583499030 725568 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All TMs with size n.
< 1583499036 83320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :?!
< 1583499036 281581 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
< 1583499043 179312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(n) is a natural number.
< 1583499048 952915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :given a natural number n.
< 1583499089 475156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the maximum of number of steps taken by any TM of size n (or less, but that's monotonic)
< 1583499092 605875 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To compute BB(6) you must consider all TMs of size 6.
< 1583499101 805734 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that terminate.
< 1583499131 407236 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"all TMs of size 6 that terminate" is a set of TMs.
< 1583499132 79577 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more like...
< 1583499144 526952 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...to compute BB(6) you *would have to* consider all TMs of size 6.
< 1583499156 231427 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because nobody's actually computing it.
< 1583499176 168107 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, for my present purposes this is nitpicking.
< 1583499198 511838 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(6) is a result *about* a *set* of Turing machines.
< 1583499240 706499 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All possible plays of a hand of MtG cards also represents a *set* of Turing machines.
< 1583499301 723853 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All possible plays of a hand of MtG cards of size n, represents a set of Turing machines of size m (where n and m are, let's assume, linearly related.)
< 1583499302 253827 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, all plays of a hand in any card game does
< 1583499326 644048 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore the maximum damage a hand of MtG cards of size n can do, is proportional to BB(m).
< 1583499337 881233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :m? n?
< 1583499349 258674 :TheLie!~TheLie@ip5b428f85.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583499364 842647 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using n MtG cards you can make a TWM program of size m.
< 1583499370 714157 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is how I'm using those letters.
< 1583499436 811818 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt that line of reasoning
< 1583499447 569602 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You keep missing the fact that a program of bounded size can work on arbtirary sized data.
< 1583499453 780768 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it fails if you have cards that do exponential damage
< 1583499461 891160 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly that
< 1583499465 56643 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A singe universal machine can run everything.
< 1583499469 683897 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: No, the busy beaver function *accounts for that fact*.
< 1583499496 424433 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(6) doesn't say *anything* about how much data any TM of size 6 uses or does not use.
< 1583499514 270918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Then stop saying "the" busy beaver function and define what you're actually using. "The" busy beaver function is for programs without input.
< 1583499522 707778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It starts on an empty tape.
< 1583499524 501273 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about input.
< 1583499525 787250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO INPUT.
< 1583499530 311801 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, no input!
< 1583499549 619882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The card games have input in the form of choices the players make.
< 1583499550 710312 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machines in BB(6) can use a lot of tape, even though they have no input
< 1583499551 861804 :TheLie!~TheLie@ip5b428f85.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1583499554 661306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is CRUCIAL.
< 1583499577 348235 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of choices do the players make?
< 1583499600 476771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which cards to play, how much mana to spend on it, how often to repeat a cycle if they enter one...
< 1583499603 940646 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tons of them
< 1583499604 361413 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of steps does not have to be proportional to the amount of damage
< 1583499614 769580 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if one step doubles the damage, you are out of luck
< 1583499617 526563 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why I have all those *guesses* up there.
< 1583499713 848730 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. I don't play MtG, I'm not aware of the kinds of choices players can make.
< 1583499718 676588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the real challenges they face is to make a TM interpreter that does *not* leave any choices to the players (with some constraints, like refusing to resign; the M:tG rules stipulate that a player may resign at any point during the game).
< 1583499817 884364 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1583499818 800042 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1583499925 50388 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's not much point trying to understand this, unless I want to understand the rules of MtG first, and I don't really have any interest in that
< 1583499979 713369 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583500080 336584 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me the new insight here was that NTMs can compute (and even iterate computations of) the busy beaver function for DTMs.
< 1583500139 334144 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for this purpose, M:tG is just a peculiar NTM. And I totally ignored TWM.
< 1583500268 224520 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's an NTM that can compute the BB function then there's also an NTM that can solve the halting problem.
< 1583500293 801830 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As a two-player game with best play, M:tG might actually be a full ATM. I don't know.)
< 1583500338 116121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well the halting problem is r.e. even with TMs.
< 1583500379 778387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware of that.
< 1583500407 740120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the usual acceptance condition for NTMs is "there is an accepting run", generalizing what you do for r.e. (accepts the input).
< 1583500426 361604 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, that solves the halting problem.
< 1583500518 389169 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION measures cpressey's brain pressure then hides behind a rock
< 1583500519 406471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One real stumbling block for me is to extend this to a functional model of computation, that actually computes a value from the input.
< 1583500531 710352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is/was/
< 1583500567 414832 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets fire to the dynamite stick that somebody placed under that rock earlier.
< 1583500623 101090 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets incinerated
< 1583500683 99753 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a hard time understanding why someone would think that they could extend "there exists an accepting path" to something that actually finds that path in all cases.
< 1583500726 811868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is beginning to think that cpressey is one of those constructivists he's heard rumors about
< 1583500760 613512 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's just a definition.
< 1583500889 66276 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my brain pressure is just too high. Occupational hazard of us constructivists, don't ya know.
< 1583500947 827928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can do it mathematically (inside a proof, say). We can't do it in practice.
< 1583501006 274988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using classical logic, obviously, like most people.
< 1583501069 277677 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would still seem that you're simply saying something like, the maximum damage you can deal in a hand of n MtG cards, is BBN(n), where BBN(x) is the busy beaver number for an *NTM* with x states.
< 1583501220 638677 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, BBN(m) where m is some function of n.
< 1583501223 558520 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more bounding BBN(n) from below by (iterated) BB(m) where both iteration and m depend on the concrete n-sized program.
< 1583501290 226174 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of damage is obviously bounded by BBN(f(n)) for a function like f(n) = infty
< 1583501310 334729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Hey we're having a serious discussion here.
< 1583501581 11280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You're not wrong, there is something resembling BBN(n) for a fixed n here somewhere, namely in the task of finding an M:tG deck that allows dealing a huge amount of damage while having an upper bound on that damage.
< 1583501674 719024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But the point where the discussion started was that they wanted to find an M:tG deck, that is, an NTM, that actually computes BB(m) or BB(BB(m)) for another fixed m instead, so that they had something easier to work with: Busy beavers (for some deterministic model of computation that's easy to implement a universal machine for in TWM).
< 1583501718 418158 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. "NTM" and "actually compute" do not go together. That's my first problem.
< 1583501734 830666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define BB(n) but you can't compute it.
< 1583501759 768722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NTM semantics are something you can define, not compute.
< 1583501768 102501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably not have used "actually" there.
< 1583501781 589031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/actually computes/defines/
< 1583501873 314270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still need the busy beavers (not necesaarily the best ones) to actually play the game and deal some damage.
< 1583501890 743888 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is a bad idea to model a hand of cards an as NTM. I think it is better to model (hand of cards + player's strategy) as a DTM.
< 1583501912 844072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, and I disagree completely.
< 1583502022 896170 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well...
< 1583502076 358001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I honestly believe that NTM (and ATM for the full game) is the most natural model for this. I don't want to mess things up by restricting the players to a computable strategy. Not that it matters here... there are only finitely many choices to be made anyway.
< 1583502099 634650 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha
< 1583502122 624478 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there really only a finite many choices that a player can make when playing their hand?
< 1583502137 619363 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this particular case? Yes.
< 1583502138 514469 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so then I object even more strongly to modelling that as an NTM
< 1583502145 963695 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just combinatorics.
< 1583502154 948308 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Occam would prefer you not complicate it unnecessarily, and so would I.
< 1583502175 943455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, don't model choices that happen on the fly as input, defying causality.
< 1583502194 382391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the proper model for that, which is non-determinism.
< 1583502258 599006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may be our main disagreement really... I think non-determinism is *simple*.
< 1583502305 19416 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you get a tree of computations rather than a line. But that's all. Trees are simple.
< 1583502485 443471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "just combinatorics" -- in either case you still get to the point where the model of computation solves the halting problem for you.
< 1583502522 1007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :By simply disregarding non-terminating paths of execution (inputs for which your program doesn't terminate)
< 1583502686 373388 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to me that you would rather introduce an NTM that represents selecting all possible finite combinations from a finite set, than merely consider all possible finite combinations from a finite set, in your explanation, that's all.
< 1583502755 846813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. At least in this particular context.
< 1583502775 199298 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1583502790 20810 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call that overkill, not just because it's nondeterministic, but also because it's a TM.
< 1583502797 153462 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I could argue against the idea that I introduce the NTM... the NTM is already present in the game, to my mind. But meh.)
< 1583502852 571001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Playing 13 No Need To Argue.ogg.
< 1583502876 413331 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1583502891 823274 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:a81a:7000:1dea:9e42 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1583502924 969168 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:a81a:7000:1dea:9e42 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583506291 127283 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an NTM that "guesses" an arbitrary DTM description and writes it to a tape, then uses a UTM to simulate that DTM and "produce" its result as an integer, there is no upper bound to the integer the NTM can "produce"; it only needs to "guess" bigger DTMs to get bigger numbers.
< 1583506412 528494 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, if there is a limit to the set of DTMs it can "guess" - if they are drawn from a finite set - then you don't need to talk about "guessing" them and then simulating them at all - you just have an enumeration of DTMs.
< 1583507336 804100 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But I /prefer/ to do it by guessing.
< 1583507350 539916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PART :#esoteric
< 1583507434 187473 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583507557 905830 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you two doing the thing where you argue about a fundamentally unimportant detail while agreeing about all the important bits?
< 1583507642 490528 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I disagree about some of the actual conclusions too, but it's hard enough to find out exactly what they are
< 1583507684 82621 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't BBN(x) be infinite for large enough x?
> 1583507715 410222 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC/STDLIB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70186&oldid=70181 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+223) 10/* Arithmetic */
< 1583507763 212800 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is BBN?
< 1583507775 928739 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busy-beaver number for NTMs.
< 1583507790 877460 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where x is the number of states?
< 1583507801 204183 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes
< 1583507814 745590 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would BBN(x) be > BB(x)?
< 1583507830 773584 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NTM has no limit to the number of states it can "guess" a DTM description to have, then it can simulate it with a UTM
< 1583507850 942177 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So probably BBN(10) is infinite
< 1583507871 6266 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not 10, then some fairly small number, in the scheme of things
< 1583507928 968168 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wouldn't the definition of the busy beaver function preclude machines that might not halt, and hence preclude any that could be infinite
< 1583508008 204719 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So probably BBN(10) is ω, is that better
< 1583508065 325082 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I understand how you're defining BBN
< 1583508140 835954 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how ω could even be in the codomain of BBN
< 1583508179 151318 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. BB(x) is the largest number of steps any terminating DTM with x states takes before terminating. BBN(x) is the largest number of steps any terminating execution path of an NTM with x states.
< 1583508210 844188 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*states has. Excuse my awkward phrasing.
< 1583508222 26573 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I had taken BBN(x) to be the lagest number of steps of any terminating execution path of an NTM with x states that terminates in all execution paths
< 1583508259 857363 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise, BBN(2) is undefined, I think
< 1583508358 807738 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a non-deterministic turing machine with states (I, H), and transitions I -> {1RI,1RH}
< 1583508368 15477 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has a terminating execution path for every natural number
> 1583508547 402842 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70187&oldid=70182 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+198) 10/* Functions */ Clearing up GIVE $
> 1583508582 749057 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07DINAC/STDLIB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70188&oldid=70186 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+21) 10/* Boolean */
< 1583508642 476212 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583508668 386719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: BBN(n) is cleverly defined to exclude not only non-terminating machines but also those that have unbounded results.
< 1583508740 812278 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"they wanted to find an M:tG deck, that is, an NTM, that [defines] BB(m) or BB(BB(m)) for another fixed m instead, so that they had something easier to work with: Busy beavers (for some deterministic model of computation that's easy to implement a universal machine for in TWM)." My problem with this is in two parts:
< 1583508801 300279 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) If they only have 125 waterclocks at their disposal to make this machine in TWM, then their damage is limited to BB(125) (or something proportional to it)
< 1583508829 370053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're ignoring the starting values of the clocks?
< 1583508953 142880 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) If they use these 125 waterclocks to make a UTM, and then feed it some kind of TM description as part of how they play their hand, then I need an explanation why they are not allowed to give it an arbitrarily large TM description that produces BB(x) for arbitrarily large x, i.e. it would appear there is no upper bound at all.
< 1583508992 354754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The x needs to be encoded in the deck, obviously.
< 1583509003 425219 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why obviously?
< 1583509017 162587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise, as you say, things would be unbounded.
< 1583509034 909387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we know they're not unbounded?
< 1583509052 161820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is specifically forbidden by their task description... if the deck produces unbounded damage, it doesn't qualify.
< 1583509086 246057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which links back to "BBN(n) is cleverly defined to exclude not only non-terminating machines but also those that have unbounded results."
< 1583509095 825450 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does x need to be encoded in the deck as opposed to the choices that the player takes when they play their cards?
< 1583509117 409015 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1583509126 981865 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're running in circles here.
< 1583509139 180752 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just asked that question, I just answered it.
< 1583509143 720142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing has changed in the meantime.
< 1583509177 960443 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's something I still don't understand about how MtG is played.
< 1583509178 457747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The encoding may be indirect, of course. In particular, x may be something like BB(10).
< 1583509271 155631 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even care about this, it's just frustrating that, every time I say something, hoping to get more clarity, I just get responses that seem to make it more opaque.
< 1583509297 447839 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think you might have misinterpreted the nature of the puzzle
< 1583509331 466576 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I have misinterpreted the nature of your complaint
< 1583509368 948411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What frustrates *me* is that you seem to understand everything about this and still are, obviously, confused, and I have no idea what you are confused about.
< 1583509438 980532 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how how n cards could *possibly* generate the number BB(BB(n)).
< 1583509453 452467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see how they could generate the number BB(n), yes.
< 1583509470 802908 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you see, I don't see how they could generate any number *larger* than it.
< 1583509498 192300 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1583509505 661849 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's something like: n cards generates BB(n), then BB(n) *plays* of those cards, generates BB(BB(n)). Something like that.
< 1583509520 518381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB_BB_googol: Guess a TM A of size 10^100. Run it to its conclusion, counting steps. Let m be the number of steps taken. Guess a TM B of size m. Run it to its conclusion, counting steps. Return the number of steps.
< 1583509541 842233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can make the TMs your input. I don't care.)
< 1583509567 341133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You discard all non-terminating runs, and take the maximum length of the terminating ones.
< 1583509579 810741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That length is BB(BB(10^100)).
< 1583509590 273140 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/length/value returned/
< 1583509594 335107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry)
< 1583509612 777788 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Guess a TM A of size 10^100" - May I ask to what object in the game of MtG does this A correspond?
< 1583509640 913386 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some number of creatures of a particular creature type.
< 1583509648 158853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creature types === counters in TWM.
< 1583509663 895374 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, can I ask another question/
< 1583509667 606479 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a perfect analogy.
< 1583509692 689991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really prefer to think of this in terms of (N)TMs, because that's far more familar territory to me.
< 1583509713 832994 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can guess a TM of size 10^100. Can I guess a TM of size 10^10000 instead?
< 1583509730 481259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. That would be a different NTM though.
< 1583509766 808632 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I guess an arbitrarily large TM?
< 1583509770 843675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No.
< 1583509774 119543 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not?
< 1583509782 63843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the whole point of building that bound into the NTM.
< 1583509815 627896 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :May I ask, what object in the game of MtG the NTM corresponds to?
< 1583509846 813617 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have given the explanation above: If you /could/ guess a TM of arbitrary size, there would be no maximum result (the results would be unbounded), and we don't want that.
< 1583509860 369618 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NTM is the deck of cards.
< 1583509867 281455 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait what?
< 1583509876 2688 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were trying to find out what the maximum result *is*.
< 1583509902 934885 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find a deck of card whose maximum damage is bounded, but really really big.
< 1583509923 456404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The damage is all done in the end, and corresponds to the number computed by the NTM.
< 1583509939 643626 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer seems to be that you can find decks of cards that do arbirarily large finite damage.
< 1583509953 542249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the deck size is bounded.
< 1583509955 379741 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was pretty sure the constraint was that we had to avoid *infinite* damage.
< 1583509988 620051 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the deck size bounded by?
< 1583509994 323381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :60.
< 1583510019 389236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus a side-board of, what, 10 cards? Something like that.
< 1583510039 163387 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's all so awfully M:tG-specific.
< 1583510069 789220 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so you're modelling this 60-card deck as an NTM with 60 states (roughly speaking).
< 1583510096 118374 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there is some reason this 60-state NTM can't guess (and then simulate) arbitrarily large DTMs.
< 1583510100 421359 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not seeing that reason.
< 1583510119 537543 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-03-02.html#lNe
< 1583510148 602490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The bound (whatever it is) must be enforced by the NTM.
< 1583510263 481647 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I doubt that the number of states corresponds to the number of cards in any nice fashion. But I also don't really care about that aspect of the problem.
< 1583510308 441665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My interest is really this: My initial reaction to the idea that you can iterate the BB function was that this can't be done. No way. Then I homed in on alternation as a possibility, and then I realized that plain non-determinism is enough.
< 1583510352 211621 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was a new insight for me. And I'm still enjoying that.
< 1583510381 31578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the TWM and M:tG details... meh I just assume they work out somehow.
< 1583510400 405514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if they don't work out, that's no skin off my nose either.
< 1583510423 730451 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whhhh
< 1583510460 133150 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1583510678 967016 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if there is a line that does more damage we will take it", but "if that amount of damage is unbounded, the deck is disqualified.", so basically this is ruling out any sequence that grows forever.
< 1583510719 966853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. This is the same as ruling out an NTM that produces unbounded results.
< 1583510973 590300 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that makes sense I guess.
< 1583511069 70067 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1583511321 823703 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't quite convince myself of it.
< 1583511659 855349 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let m be the number of steps taken. Guess a TM B of size m." ... the NTM has to allow guessing a TM as large as m, without knowing how big m is beforehand, but also has to prevent guessing arbitrarily large TMs.
< 1583511702 454225 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is *deterministic*
< 1583511729 875624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it either fails to terminate (and we're good, the run will be discarded) or produce a fixed result.
< 1583511739 641689 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same for B.
< 1583511743 388467 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back up
< 1583511763 744600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :m is bounded by BB(10^100).
< 1583511786 7429 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *understand* that A is deterministic; in fact I am assuming that the NTM correctly guessed the DTM which computes BB(10^100).
< 1583511817 832681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in that case m equals BB(10^100) by the point we're guessing B.
< 1583511865 883394 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's not arbitrarily large anymore?
< 1583511873 368522 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay.
< 1583511889 963398 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though obviously so insanely large that it makes no difference in practice.)
< 1583511916 925995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where "practice" refers to the scenario where we actually play out one of those runs with concrete choices for A and B)
< 1583512191 572396 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so there's a deck of 60 cards where there's a possible play that writes a TM A of size 10^100 to the tape and then simulates it to obtain m = BB(10^100) and then writes another TM, this one of size m, to the tape, and then simulates it to obtain BB(m), i.e. BB(BB(10^100)), and then does that much damage.
< 1583512239 85070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's the mental model I have of this.
< 1583512240 459784 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I understand it now.
< 1583512292 149206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm hazy about the actual models of computation (TWM is involved, but it's used to implement a universal machine, and that may be something entirely else still).
< 1583512300 310574 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that I have explained it to myself in terms that do not involve an NTM.
< 1583512381 824981 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The important bits to me is that the outer model is non-deterministic (you prefer input, we disagree, let's not reopen that discussion), and that the innner thing that the BB() function is based on is deterministic (so that non-termination of the simulated machine manifests as non-termination of the whole thing).
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< 1583513729 254165 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *could* do the steps the other way around. You could write a TM B of size BB(10^100) to the tape and simulates it to produce BB(BB(10^100)), then write a TM A that computes BB(10^100) to obtain m, then aborts if TM B consists of more than m states (but it doesn't so you're ok and you output BB(BB(10^100)).)
< 1583513775 195642 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why I mention this.
< 1583513845 218112 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't get how people are computing BB(BB(x)) given BB(x))
< 1583513881 365276 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:a81a:7000:1dea:9e42 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not possible:(
< 1583513924 14487 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're basically getting very, very lucky, if you want to think of it as something that could actually happen.
< 1583513973 639257 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:a81a:7000:1dea:9e42 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lucky NTM of 1 or 2 states can also output BB(10^100) :)
< 1583514111 477644 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For obscure reasons, we also want to also disallow NTMs that can produce arbitrarily large numbers.
< 1583514254 624714 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Details are available in the scrollback, if they can be extracted from the painful misunderstandings.
< 1583514330 235940 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still digesting it, myself.
< 1583514343 697463 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1583514785 84646 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's not all that obscure... it's fairly easy to do unbounded damage in M:tG.
< 1583514810 813507 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For reasons that will be obscure to anyone who doesn't care much about the MtG angle.
< 1583514839 69101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Use any of https://hobbylark.com/card-games/best-infinite-mana-combos-mtg to fuel a Fireball, which does X damage for 1 red and X other mana.)
< 1583514884 664971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But it also makes sense to do that when trying to define the busy beaver function for NTMs ;)
< 1583514908 760279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because what would the point be if the value can be infinite...)
< 1583515036 121197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The reason is not that dissimilar to that 2-state NTM you had earlier... non-determinism means you can expect to turn an infinite loop into an unbounded one very easily.
< 1583515085 765300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for some reason the M:tG designers don't consider infinite loops to be a design flaw in the cards... as long as they either don't do anything useful, or are expensive to set up.
< 1583515157 424784 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, how would you like to me say it?
< 1583515180 706505 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: For reasons that int-e will be happy to explain, we want to avoid NTMs that produce arbitrarily large numbers.
< 1583515204 733594 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have a good weekend.
< 1583515209 769724 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
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< 1583530821 943686 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should add a dot command in the SQLite command-line interface for editing the definition of a view or trigger using an external editor.
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< 1583533191 531854 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
< 1583534332 984488 :zseri!~zseri@ip4d158302.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be interesting to invent a programming language which supports a metatype above "type kinds". ref = https://github.com/YZITE/rfcs/blob/master/proglangs/0004-typelang.md
< 1583536282 600220 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :posted a thing to ##math to no avail, maybe #esoteric-setminus-##math people will make something of it:
< 1583536282 715635 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey hey you probably know that solutions to ordinary differential equations like P dx + Q dy = 0 are integral curves. The previous night it occurred to me that one could take 2-forms (and higher ones) instead of 1-forms and make an equation like α := P dx∧dy + Q dy∧dz + R dz∧dx = 0 whose solutions would be “integral surfaces” (resp. submanifolds of higher dimension). But I haven’t seen an equation like that anywhere. Do you know why?
< 1583536282 715690 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing doesn’t seem ill-defined: as with integral curves, every point P of an integral surface should have a tangent bivector A such that α(P, A) = 0. One can also think about nonlinear higher-order equations, again in the same way as for the ordinary “1-form equations”. WDYT?
< 1583536316 804147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-8.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :differential equations question? no thanks
< 1583536390 21876 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cries silently
< 1583536862 39701 :zseri!~zseri@ip4d158302.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(@arsentiv) I don't really know how to interpret your question, but that might be because I don't really know how to translate your "textification" of integral formulas back into the standard notation. hm. ref = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_integral
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< 1583538965 354266 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe those weren’t integrals, those were differential form fields (equated to zero), but there is a hidden argument to which they are applied to: a vector field, or a bivector field in the second case. So a solution will consist of points with tangent (bi)vectors sticking out of them, and as fields by usual definition are smooth, these points would (in most cases?) make a curve, a surface etc.
< 1583539017 839550 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zseri: if you are reading logs ← here’s a mention to simplify the search
< 1583539075 511513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a person said me that in general there should probably be jets instead of forms
< 1583539126 725811 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don’t know if they cover k-forms for k ≥ 2