00:14:16 <arseniiv> was here a holy war about whether ++ and -- (and specifically, both prefix and postfix kinds of these) are such a good thing in a language?
00:15:06 <ais523> just putting this out there for people who are interested: I've made a draft of what a 10+halt-waterclock interpreter for a TC language in The Waterfall Model could look like: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/and-high-rise.txt
00:15:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: not really a hot holy war, but python and ruby silently don't have them
00:15:31 <ais523> I haven't proved this TC, nor implemented the actual interpreter yet
00:15:42 <ais523> just described the basic design and what all the waterclocks are used for
00:15:46 <ais523> so it's quite possible there's a mistake
00:15:50 <ais523> but I thought I'd post it anyway
00:16:08 <ais523> it's almost certainly possible to do better than 10 but I thought I'd err on the side of producing something TC
00:16:42 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah Python is amidst sane ones here :) (for what I think)
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00:17:29 <b_jonas> ais523: do you also have a suspected order of magnitude on the upper bound of the waterfall matrix elements, as a function of the program size in some other more well-known computational model?
00:17:32 <arseniiv> ais523: The Waterfall Model is nice
00:17:44 <b_jonas> I'd like to know how many exponentials you need
00:18:15 <ais523> b_jonas: two of the matrix exponents are probably single-exponential in the size of a 2-tag system that emulates the program
00:18:30 <MtGBusyBeaver> I am also curious to how big the initial setup needs to be
00:18:34 <ais523> err, actually 1, in this construction
00:18:41 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: a double-arrow number is enough, a single-arrow number might not be
00:19:10 <ais523> I wasn't quite sure how powerful the pre-BB layers would be
00:19:34 <ais523> if you can reconfigure the machine between iterations you can make do with small numbers by constructing a Waterfall Model program whose purpose is to output a large number rather than to be a UTM
00:19:35 <MtGBusyBeaver> they are less powerful for sure, but they are still layers
00:19:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but how about a 150***3 or 150***4 number? I'd like to know how many exponentials you need. a double arrow number like 150***150 is likely enough.
00:20:05 <ais523> but I figured you'd probably find a way to create a double-arrow number
00:20:27 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the issue is that you're encoding the UTM you want to run as the digits of a number
00:20:30 <b_jonas> not many of even your esolanguages need more than a few levels of exponential to simulate something sane
00:20:32 <ais523> so it's exponential in the size of the UTM
00:20:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, there are no inputs, only program
00:20:52 <b_jonas> both in the turing machine you run and the waterfall program
00:21:07 <ais523> I believed I only used a double-exponential (2**(2**x)) once, and even in that situation it later turned out to be unnecessary
00:21:07 <b_jonas> that's why I asked as a function of the program size
00:21:11 <MtGBusyBeaver> we can probably make something like 5-7 arrows with just what we have
00:22:00 <b_jonas> ais523: though I guess in this case I have to ask this restricted to less than a hundred waterclocks, regardless of input program size, to be more relevant for M:tG
00:22:10 <ais523> b_jonas: this is a specific construction with 10 waterclocks
00:22:25 <ais523> that I haven't figured out the details of yet, but have a basic plan for
00:22:43 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: I also guess that just a double arrow number like 150***150 should be enough for most programs
00:22:55 <b_jonas> four arrows like you mentioned earlier should be more than enough
00:22:58 <ais523> the idea is to implement a version of High Rise in base 3 where carrying is disallowed, sequences 0 and 1 are empty, and sequence 2 alternates between a geometric progression and 0
00:23:47 <ais523> that High Rise language, I'm about 99% confident has a fairly direct implementation of 2-tag
00:23:54 <MtGBusyBeaver> well once we run one BB we have access to that number so iterations really grow very fast
00:24:23 <ais523> via arranging the base of sequence 2's geometric progression so that the distances between pairs of 2s in the data string (with one intervening 2 between them) represent tag system elements
00:24:26 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: yes, the question is just how larege you need to start the bootstrapping
00:24:47 <arseniiv> . o O ( wait, only just now I noticed that zero arrows is the multiplication (and both can be denoted by an empty string), so arrow notation is even better than I thought! )
00:24:52 <b_jonas> it almost certainly won't be a problem in your M:tG construction, but I'm still curious for reasons other than that construction
00:24:55 <ais523> and I'm also fairly confident that a The Waterfall Model program using the waterclock assignment I linked above can be made to implement it
00:25:42 <MtGBusyBeaver> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/and-high-rise.txt this link?
00:25:43 <b_jonas> ais523: that should work. and how many exponentials do you need to encode *to* a 2-tag system
00:25:54 <ais523> now, if you have a double-arrow startup, you could make do with a fixed program (and simply varying the initial waterclock sizes) by writing a UTM in 2-tag and hardcoding that
00:26:12 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: although it's just a thought dump rather than presented in a way that's easy to follow
00:26:17 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/High_Rise might help for some context
00:26:48 <ais523> I will probably end up writing out the explicit proofs and Waterfall Model machine at some point, but likely not in the next few days because I have a day job
00:27:14 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't know offhand how complex UTMs in 2-tag are
00:27:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not asking for an UTM there, rather how large the tag system program is as a function of the program you're compiling from
00:27:48 <ais523> the problem with languages that are "well known" to be TC is that I often haven't proved them TC myself and thus don't have much of an intuitive idea of what the complexities are like
00:28:03 <b_jonas> ais523: for the Waterfall model, you need an UTM so that the program always fits in 150 or so waterclocks, because the M:tG construction can't handle more
00:28:23 <ais523> b_jonas: well, this is the usual trick when optimising universal machines
00:28:37 <ais523> you want your machine to be small, so you want as little code as possible, so much of the complexity is in the data
00:28:59 <b_jonas> if you only care about program size, not runtime (and we don't care about runtime here), then an UTM probably helps
00:29:08 <ais523> just look at, e.g., Three Star Programmer or the I/D machine
00:29:43 <ais523> the interpreters are ridiculously simple and small, but writing a program to do anything is very complex because you have to code all the basic operations you want into the program itself
00:29:55 <MtGBusyBeaver> 12 and under requires much less restriction on the setu
00:30:32 <ais523> Three Star Programmer requires a complex one-time setup just to be able to write to specific memory addresses, for example, then needs to neutralise the extra copies of that setup on every future iteration because it has no way to run code only once
00:30:57 <MtGBusyBeaver> and it looks like 10 is going to be enough for TC-ness
00:31:00 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: that's why I was aiming for 12 as a target, it's nice to have a concrete number rather than continuously worry about if I'm wasting a waterclock somewhere
00:31:12 <ais523> the 10 is almost certainly improvable, but I can't immediately see how
00:31:18 <b_jonas> "no way to run code only once" => oh no... Countercall
00:31:36 <ais523> b_jonas: I think oerjan proved Countercall sub-TC? although I can't remember
00:32:02 <ais523> it'll be in the IRC logs from around when Countercall was created
00:32:15 <MtGBusyBeaver> also reading the logs, there are actually two ways for the MTG program to halt
00:32:36 <MtGBusyBeaver> or by killing all of the other arcbonded creatures
00:33:11 <MtGBusyBeaver> the second one can be delayed in a BB method and we can prevent them from dying
00:34:24 <MtGBusyBeaver> so the creatures with arcbond act as the halting clock
00:34:36 <ais523> one nice thing about your construction is that I think it has no limit on "self-reset" values, right?
00:34:43 <ais523> a waterclock that zeroes can set itself to any value
00:35:15 <ais523> with the Hungry Lynx construction, I used Elesh Norn partly for the static +2/+2, giving me a self-reset max of 4, because I was worried it might not be high enough
00:35:26 <ais523> (although I think we subsequently discovered that a self-reset of 3 is enough)
00:35:50 <ais523> but large self-resets might be needed for the 10-waterclock construction
00:36:37 <MtGBusyBeaver> the +1/+1 from dralnu's crusade means we can't reset ourself smaller than 2
00:36:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not entirely sure, but I think oerjan only conjectured that Countercall is not TC, and proved something much weaker
00:36:54 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: there's no issue with low self-resets
00:36:54 <b_jonas> at least that's what it seems from checking the logs again
00:36:58 <b_jonas> but it could be hiding anywhere
00:37:02 <ais523> you can always just increase all the other waterclocks to compensate
00:37:35 <ais523> right, definitely worth being aware of all your limitations
00:38:36 <MtGBusyBeaver> also if you need any of the "growing"/"flooding" type clocks those don't count towards the 12 limit
00:39:26 <ais523> right, I figured that out; it might be interesting to try to create a UTM with some number of those
00:39:41 <ais523> you'd want to store data using the length of time the program had been running
00:40:00 <ais523> even with the help of a few normal clocks, though, it'd be a pain to keep things under control
00:43:32 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, it's useful to know that you will probably be able to prove that 10 or 12 clocks are enough
00:43:55 <b_jonas> for turing-completeness that is
00:44:07 <MtGBusyBeaver> well that 10 proof looks close so 12 is almost assured
00:45:11 <b_jonas> oh, since we're talking about M:tG, I wanted to advertise the play-by-post M:tG variant game that we're running: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601011
00:47:12 <b_jonas> each round, players secretly choose a 3-card deck, then they're revealed, then each deck plays two games against each other deck, you don't lose for drawing from an empty library, all game information that would normally be hidden is known, we figure out the result of each game assuming perfect play,
00:47:30 <ais523> that sounds like 3-card blind so far
00:47:41 <ais523> I assume luck always goes against the player who put the luck card in their deck?
00:47:45 <MtGBusyBeaver> my first forum name was to participate in that on the old WotC
00:47:59 <b_jonas> players get a point for a draw and three points for a match won, the player with the most points in that round wins the round and an internet point and right to boast.
00:49:21 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's 3-card blind, and yes, random choices go against the person who put that card in their deck
00:51:26 <b_jonas> and it's vanishing, which means that the cards from the deck that won a round are banned from future rounds, except certain cards like basic lands and storage lands are immune to getting banned this way.
00:52:44 <b_jonas> and you aren't allowed to mulligan, despite that with the latest mulligan rule it would actually help you if you could
00:53:23 <b_jonas> but apparently the player base is conservative and not used to the new mulligan rule yet, so they don't want to upset the meta from that
00:55:38 <ais523> I can't think of many situations where you'd prefer to have a card in your deck than in your hand
00:55:47 <ais523> maybe if you're going second and the opponent is playing Thoughtseize or the like?
00:55:57 <ais523> oh yes, miracles, didn't think of that one but it's obvious now you said it
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00:56:31 <b_jonas> ais523: that's sort of why the situation didn't come up before the current mulligan rule
00:56:37 <b_jonas> but read the new mulligan rule:
00:57:44 <ais523> you put cards from hand on the bottom of your library, so you choose which one you put there
00:57:49 <ais523> rather than it being random
00:58:09 <b_jonas> so now it mostly protects you from Burning Inquiry and other discards
00:58:31 <b_jonas> not completely, but to a very large amount
00:58:45 <b_jonas> only we don't allow mulliganing, as a house rule, so nope
00:59:11 <ais523> well, you have a house rule to not lose by outdraw
00:59:20 <ais523> but that can happen during mulligans in regular MTG
00:59:24 <ais523> so it's a bit of a weird interaction
00:59:44 <ais523> (admittedly, it requires Shahrazad to be possible in a black-border game)
01:00:22 <b_jonas> nevertheless, we did manage to get strange metas from newly released broken cards, most notably the non-black-bordered small print run cards Impatient Iguana and Mirror Lotus
01:00:34 <b_jonas> s/Mirror Lotus/Mirrored Lotus/
01:01:51 <ais523> `card-by-name mirrored lotus
01:02:09 <ais523> oh, wait, is this from Unsanctioned?
01:02:28 <ais523> oh, Mystery Booster Playtest
01:02:42 <b_jonas> ais523: technically does not require Shahrazad anymore, because of Karn Liberated, but that won't come up in a real game, because you'll win before it'd happen
01:02:50 <ais523> that isn't a silver-bordered card, it has a black border and a "not for constructed play" footer
01:03:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I didn't say silver-bordered, I only said non-black-bordered
01:03:24 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if it technically counts as having any border
01:03:34 <ais523> the border is black, though, with a few intrusions
01:03:54 <b_jonas> but isn't that just the border of the card that the playtest sticker is sticked on?
01:04:10 <b_jonas> the properties of that card shouldn't matter
01:04:19 <b_jonas> even if you can somehow see them
01:04:40 <ais523> b_jonas: the underlying card is part of the card, as printed, though
01:04:45 <ais523> the sticker is also part of the card
01:04:51 <ais523> they're on the same print sheet and printed together
01:05:03 <b_jonas> that said, there probably won't be a judgement on this, because there are only three un-cards that care about whether a card is black-bordered
01:05:12 <ais523> so the underlying card is part of the card; most of its properties don't matter because there's a sticker over it, but I'd argue it determines the border color
01:05:22 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but the underlying card shouldn't matter to determine characteristics
01:06:21 <ais523> the sticker doesn't cover the border
01:06:24 <b_jonas> maybe they are black-bordered then
01:06:38 <ais523> it's a bit like host/augment, parts of the card are covered by the augment but those parts that aren't still count
01:06:48 <ais523> or Curse of the Fire Penguin
01:06:53 <ais523> `card-by-name curse of the fire penguin
01:06:54 <HackEso> Curse of the Fire Penguin \ 4RR \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Curse of the Fire Penguin consumes and confuses enchanted creature. \ UNH-R \ \ Curse of the Fire Penguin Creature \ 4RR \ Creature -- Penguin \ 6/5 \ Trample \ When this creature dies, return Curse of the Fire Penguin to the battlefield. \ UNH-R
01:07:17 <ais523> was wondering how the bot would represent that thing
01:07:20 <ais523> I guess that's a decent effort
01:07:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think playtest stickers are like that. if they were, I'd make an Ulamog proxy such that the sticker happens to not cover the mana cost {W}
01:07:51 <ais523> b_jonas: the cards in question are not playtest stickers
01:07:58 <ais523> they're cards whose design /looks/ like a playtest sticker
01:08:25 <ais523> but the sticker and underlying card are part of the same printed card, and in particular the underlying card is always the same
01:08:34 <b_jonas> and admittedly they made a good job where the playtest sticker covers almost everything
01:09:16 <ais523> I think I'd take border color and frame color from the underlying card, but pinline color from the sticker
01:09:28 <b_jonas> ok, then they're black-bordered cards that aren't valid for tournaments
01:09:33 <ais523> that said, I'm not sure if M:tG will ever have a card that cares about pinline color
01:09:34 <MtGBusyBeaver> Form of the mulldrifter is clearly on a mulldrifter though
01:10:02 <b_jonas> that category already exists I think, because I think some very low print run cards were printed as black bordered with square corners rather than gold bordered
01:10:29 <b_jonas> pinline color would be tricky because pre-Mirrodin cards don't have it
01:10:53 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: heh, indeed
01:12:40 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: and One with Death is on One with Nothing
01:13:07 <ais523> One with Death is actually a fairly good card in constructed, IIRC
01:13:26 <ais523> because there are a few combos that force your opponent to resolve one of your spells, and that's about the strongest possible payoff for one of those
01:15:03 <b_jonas> ais523: that sounds a bit hard to do. isn't the normal route just donating an Illusions of Grandeur or a Phage?
01:16:57 <ais523> I think Hive Mind is the most common core of the combo
01:16:59 <ais523> `card-by-name Hive Mind
01:17:00 <HackEso> Hive Mind \ 5U \ Enchantment \ Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, each other player copies that spell. Each of those players may choose new targets for their copy. \ M10-R
01:17:14 <ais523> you don't even need anything else when using One With Death because the opponent's copy resolves first
01:17:48 <ais523> the normal kill in tournaments uses pacts in the hope that the opponent doesn't have the right color of mana to pay for them
01:19:38 <b_jonas> I played a Phage deck twice in the three card blind, got a second place from it once, and that one doesn't try to get the opponent to resolve Phage, just puts it to play under the opponent's control (as one path to win; the other is to just play it and attack with it)
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04:16:51 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70245&oldid=69894 * Quadril-Is * (+23)
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10:08:36 <wib_jonas> fizzie: the log bot seems to have stopped yesterday
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13:54:11 <wib_jonas> I created a stub at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Orca , and a few months later the person who created this esolang came along and edited more details onto the wiki
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13:55:20 <wib_jonas> including a scan of a print magazine article reviewing the language (or its implementation)
13:57:29 <wib_jonas> I don't know if they came to the wiki because I wrote the stub, or on the other hand the stub was useless and they'd have written the wiki article anyway, though
13:57:49 <myname> there is much more to explain, though
13:58:10 <myname> explanations of examples would be lovely
13:58:45 <wib_jonas> myname: there's a link saying "Tutorial Video on Youtube"
13:59:33 <myname> yeah, if i don't forget i will watch that later
14:03:01 <wib_jonas> ah, the log bot is working now. and the previous one might have been false alarm.
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15:50:55 <HackEso> 1/1:378) <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for! \ 1254) <coppro> actually a small trebuchet onto the balcony might work
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17:04:01 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) Created page with "''Infinite Goto'' is a language by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Programs in it will never end. ==Syntax== All lines have a number on them. Numbers less than 0 are treated..."
17:04:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70247&oldid=70190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Languages */
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17:27:03 <myname> the youtube video is interesting
17:27:10 <myname> now i want to install it
18:09:46 <arseniiv> myname: there is a browser version also, the article says. Maybe it’s functional enough not to install locally (haven’t tried, but you’ve intrigued me into watching tutorial, maybe a bit later though)
18:13:49 <myname> i downloaded it, but i have no idea on how to create a midi device
18:24:13 <arseniiv> I think I had a thing somewhere that creates a virtual midi device but that’s a windows one
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20:04:42 <arseniiv> that thing is interesting, though I’m not comfortable with that kind of music environments
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23:38:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70252&oldid=70242 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* M */
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