←2020-03-13 2020-03-14 2020-03-15→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:07:05 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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00:15:59 <ais523> zzo38: I don't really like it, the affinity is unlikely to matter especially on a spell that costs {1}, and {4}, {T} seems way too expensive for the activated ability
00:16:25 <ais523> actually I think it wouldn't be worth playing even if the ability cost {0}
00:19:52 <zzo38> What if "poison" is deleted?
00:21:29 <MTGBusyBeaver42> better, still pretty narrow though. it just seems like a much worse Chronomaton
00:21:42 <ais523> that's a lot more interesting; I think {4}, {T} is probably still too expensive but it has the core of an interesting card now
00:22:43 <MTGBusyBeaver42> and who/what is "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"?
00:26:47 <zzo38> The name of a (unofficial) legendary creature card. (That in turn is the name of a character from a Dungeons&Dragons game I played, although I now play GURPS and included that character too sometimes, although my main character is now Ziveruskex.)
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00:30:58 <MTGBusyBeaver42> ais523, since it is just used for parity, could that last waterclock be a flooding clock instead?
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00:32:20 <ais523> MTGBusyBeaver42: which clock? apart from halt clocks, I don't think any of them could be flooding because you need to adjust apparently irrelevant clocks just to undo the steady decrement
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00:32:45 <MTGBusyBeaver42> E'
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00:33:30 <MTGBusyBeaver42> but no i see it is a little more complicated than that
00:33:32 <ais523> E' needs to run only once for multiple reasons, perhaps the most obvious is that it needs to adjust its own value relative to E by a set amount
00:33:52 <ais523> which it can't do if it's been held in stasis (with increments and decrements cancelling out) for an arbitrary length of time and is flooding
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00:34:47 <MTGBusyBeaver42> it cant just double itself and add itself to everything?
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00:35:42 <MTGBusyBeaver42> that seems like it would be difficult to track but yeah i dont think it would actually work
00:39:39 <ais523> if it adjusts itself by any more than it should, it won't trigger the next time that it should
00:42:32 <MTGBusyBeaver42> flooding clocks are so hard to work with
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00:50:53 <zzo38> Somehow, a few days ago, the NNTP server at aioe was confused about the highest article number in a newsgroup; trying to access it resulted in an error. However, it seems to be corrected now. Do you know why it does that?
00:52:26 <ais523> no
00:54:51 <zzo38> (Even while that was broken, I was still able to use NEWNEWS to download the articles instead, since they don't disable NEWNEWS (although it seems that some servers do disable NEWNEWS, but aioe isn't one of them, fortunately).)
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01:52:40 <zzo38> How much should be the activation cost be if "{4}, {T}" is too much, then?
02:00:00 <MTGBusyBeaver42> probably just {T} or just mana like {3}
02:00:45 <MTGBusyBeaver42> tapping the guy on your turn only if theres a counter on a player is pretty narrow
02:04:10 <zzo38> OK
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02:51:15 <zzo38> Once I saw mahjong tiles that go up to ten.
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11:16:50 <oerjan> huh the parallel between girl genius and schlock mercenary increases
11:22:22 <oerjan> int-e: ^
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12:59:19 <esowiki> [[DAMN COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70277 * Hakerh400 * (+17258) +[[DAMN COVID-19]]
12:59:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70278&oldid=70253 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[DAMN COVID-19]]
12:59:26 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70279&oldid=70243 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[DAMN COVID-19]]
13:15:02 <Lykaina> whoever user Hakerh400 is...lol
13:16:22 <Lykaina> making a silly language around a serious topic
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13:27:15 <myname> that actually looks like a decent puzzle game idea
13:32:26 <Lykaina> yes
13:33:28 <Lykaina> but it gave me a laugh because of the name applied to it. i have a weird sense of humor
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14:13:54 <arseniiv> “If there is a city in the current cell, remove it, otherwise add it (works only when all cities are previously infected)” => adding a city means the virus is quite intellectual!
14:16:56 <arseniiv> I’m concerned by undefinedness of the distribution of random added cities. It’s stated that adding no cities has low probability and that the map should have one island after adding all new cities and have the same holes as before, but that all is too uncertain
14:17:14 <arseniiv> though there is a reference implementation to look into
14:17:43 <arseniiv> I presume also the map can’t become infinite
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16:36:11 <esowiki> [[IRCIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70280&oldid=69890 * Batman nair * (+498) More functions added to the program
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17:10:44 <fizzie> You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland.
17:10:49 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's just a regular bank with a basement room for the safety deposit boxes.)
17:12:00 <int-e> `grwp vault
17:12:03 <HackEso> No output.
17:12:08 <int-e> `quote vault
17:12:11 <HackEso> No output.
17:17:30 <b_jonas> nice. I hope it's not on a DVD, but on a media that stands time more reliably, such as an SD card.
17:17:45 <b_jonas> or printed on acid-free paper, but it would be hard to restore from that.
17:19:07 <int-e> Hmm, I thought actual DVDs are pretty good. But no clue about the writable media, they're bound to be quite a bit worse.
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17:20:43 <b_jonas> int-e: DVDs are good if you need to store data for only a few years. they're less good if you want to store the data for 20 yeras.
17:21:04 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I mean burnable DVDs
17:21:34 <b_jonas> factory molded DVDs are supposedly better, but those are published in lots of copies, so if you lose one, you can probably get the data from somewhere else
17:22:45 <zzo38> I make backups on DVDs, but they are recorded rather than pressed DVDs. I don't know how long it is expected to last, though. (They are DVD-R, in case that matters. I don't know if DVD+R is better or worse.)
17:24:00 <b_jonas> I make such backups too, because having the backups a year or two later can also be potentially valuable if the data is lost from my hard disk
17:24:22 <b_jonas> although these days I don't do that much, because data is becoming large,
17:24:31 <b_jonas> so I mostly back up to hard disks and SD cards instead
17:25:16 <b_jonas> meanwhile, today I installed a better ceiling light to my work room at home, with the help of my father, so now the lighting is actually decent
17:25:25 <zzo38> I have fit all of the files on my computer on three DVDs (using compressed tape archives); one for /home, one for /var, and one for everything else.
17:25:37 <b_jonas> I'll still have to fine tune it, the three bulb holders are individually rotatable in 2D
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17:26:08 <b_jonas> sure, I use compression to back up to hard disk too
17:26:17 <b_jonas> compression is useful
17:26:36 <fizzie> The copy is on a hard disk, which I'm not so certain about the durability of. I've got three that I rotate cyclically (one in the machine for weekly incremental copies, one on the shelf, and one in the vault), and run long-form SMART self tests on every swap.
17:26:37 <int-e> cmprssn s sfl
17:27:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, that's why you copy to multiple hard disks. each individual hard disk isn't too reliable, but you can copy between them fast. I should buy more hard disks.
17:28:40 <fizzie> I've got two blank M-DISCs that came with the external DVD drive I got recently, but I'm not sure what to put on them. They're allegedly supposed to last for a thousand years, but I don't know how much that is marketing hype. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC
17:30:41 <b_jonas> I'd guess marketing hype too
17:32:52 <ais523> CDs were believed to last a very long time when first created, that subsequently turned out to be incorrect
17:32:59 <ais523> because the were less durable than expected
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17:39:28 <zzo38> Apparently Canadian government says that DVD-R discs will last for 50-100 years if with gold, or 10-20 years if with silver.
17:42:23 <APic> And You believe what the GOVT says?
17:43:23 <int-e> It depends on the country?
17:43:37 <zzo38> Well, considering that DVDs were not invented 50 years ago, I don't think so.
17:44:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: are there details for that statement? are they staying that they last for that long in library archive conditions, that is, at constant temperature and constant low humidity?
17:44:43 <int-e> Light (UV in particular) probably matters as well.
17:44:53 <b_jonas> probably
17:46:42 <zzo38> It says if you do not write on the disc, the disc is stored in a case, in vertical orientation, in a cool and dry environment.
17:47:03 <b_jonas> Most rolls of thermal paper used for receipts here have a writing on the back that says it's guaranteed to be readable for 8 years, provided you store it away from direct sunlight, in temperature btw 18°C and 23°C, on humidity 50±8%. this last one is impossible to satisfy at home, so if you actually want to keep the information on the thermal paper for more than two years, it's better to scan or
17:47:09 <b_jonas> photocopy it.
17:47:24 <zzo38> I don't do all of those things; there is some writing on the disc, although I store them in the basement.
17:47:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: cool and dry environments, right, that's the tricky part
17:47:47 <b_jonas> I could manage not writing on them, instead writing on a paper case surrounding it
17:47:52 <b_jonas> envelope
17:48:30 <b_jonas> what I do is storing most of the DVD backups in my parent's house, not because that's a better site, but just to have off-site backups
17:48:45 <b_jonas> if I buy more hard disks, then I should do that with rotated hard disk backups too.
17:50:16 <zzo38> (I also store the discs in a cupboard, which is dark inside, so there isn't light on it.)
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18:45:13 <arseniiv> <fizzie> You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland. => yay!
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18:50:16 <arseniiv> re, backups: there are also tools to use redundancy to make chosen files more robust to errors. Though I don’t know if there are any that leave at least one usual copy of the file intact so one can read that without the need to resynthesize those file chunks, if they hope that the data is still intact
18:54:05 <arseniiv> so I read up on intuitionistic Kripke models and it seems yes, all classical models are trivially these models with one world, and also I think one can make a clever model where in one word it’s a classical standard model, and a world above that hosts a classical nonstandard model, and maybe in a world above that there is even larger nonstandard model, or one can add a world any other way
18:54:15 <arseniiv> so, even weirder
18:54:29 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can do that too. let's say you split your backup to three files, each half a DVD size. you distribute two copies of each across three DVDs. now you have three DVDs so that if any two of them are readable, you can restore your backup from them, and you don't need special tools for that redudnancy.
18:54:56 <b_jonas> at least not more than what I already use to split my backup to several files so that I can distribute them among DVDs just because they don't fit on a single DVD
18:56:42 <ais523> arseniiv: most schemes for adding redundancy leave one copy intac
18:56:45 <ais523> *intact
18:57:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: this is a good method but it requires a lot of space to hold the unwritten archive. Though having all that space is better than what I was doing when I used DVD backups
18:57:19 <ais523> actually, there are coding schemes where you can take, say, 10 DVDs, add an additional 4 DVDs as check information, and reconstruct the entire set if any 4 are lost
18:57:34 <ais523> (or damaged)
18:57:44 <ais523> but the first 10 contain all the information in the clear
18:58:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you need a DVD and half of space only, you can construct a DVD file system on the fly from two directories these days trivially
18:58:34 <b_jonas> but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory
18:58:41 <b_jonas> you don't need more space than the backup
18:59:41 <arseniiv> what I was doing when I used DVD backups => (I tried to solve that oprimization problem by hand, writing directories and parts of them; it was a grindy form of art)
19:00:06 <ais523> I would expect USB sticks to be more durable than DVDs (although considerably more expensive)
19:00:14 <ais523> that said, I'm not certain
19:00:41 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory => yeah that was what I used to do and it was awful
19:01:10 <arseniiv> especially with video
19:01:21 <b_jonas> there's also the more trickier secret sharing method, in which you distribute some data (in practice a symmetricy cryptography) key among three CDs such that it can be reconstructed from any two, but not from any one. obviously then you can't just write the data in plain text. this can be useful if you want remote backups of your secret key in places where there's a chance that they can be stolen.
19:02:11 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if error correction codes can be used to do that trivially?
19:02:20 <ais523> start with your plaintext P; generate random data R
19:02:22 <b_jonas> ais523: it's hard to tell. SD cards are certainly more resistant to bad storage conditions, and I suspect that they last long, but I can't tell if they last longer than a DVD in ideal (library archives with controlled temperature)
19:02:27 <ais523> store P^R and R on the first two DVDs
19:02:39 <ais523> actually, no, that doesn't work
19:02:49 <ais523> because the "check" DVD will contain P in plaintext
19:02:53 <b_jonas> ais523: you can use a trivial xor method if you don't mind storing more data than necessary, which is fine with a secret key stored on digital media;
19:03:20 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want an optimal solution, you can use a solution based on polynomial interpolation, as explained in the description of David Madore's accidental IOCCC winnning entry
19:03:27 <ais523> IIRC the most common failure mode for flash memory (which SD cards and USB sticks are based on) is becoming read-only, which wouldn't be a huge issue in this context
19:03:41 <ais523> b_jonas: I normally use polynomial interpolation for this
19:03:56 <ais523> ever since I won a codegolf competition with it
19:04:15 <arseniiv> ais523: I’ve seen something like this a month or so ago, that’s why I mentioned redundancy in the first place. I’ll look for the link…
19:04:19 <ais523> it has basically no downsides as far as I can see, other than the finite field often being annoying to construct and operate on
19:04:21 <b_jonas> ais523: nice. that should be possible, because the IOCCC entry is naturally somewhat golfed too.
19:05:18 <b_jonas> and I know some golfy ways to act on finite fields (though these don't interpolate polynomials):
19:05:24 <ais523> it seems that in practice, finite fields are normally stored in lookup tables, because there aren't any "fast" ways of generating them on the fly (unless they have a prime size, obviously)
19:05:52 <ais523> at least, if you want to be able to number the elements consistently
19:05:53 <arseniiv> found it: https://viereck.ch/scatter/
19:06:45 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?spoil=1;node_id=863110 golfy computation on GF(128) based on bitshifts (I think there's a faster way but you can't easily write it in perl, you need to use cpu-specific carryless multiplication instructions); https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 golfy GF(128) based on lookup tables;
19:07:20 <b_jonas> and there are much golfier ways to compute on GF(127)
19:07:25 <ais523> GF(256) is probably the most interesting one for error correction codes
19:07:42 <ais523> or GF(size of DVD), I guess
19:07:45 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, and David Madore's accidental IOCCC entry implements GF(255) IIRC
19:08:12 <b_jonas> nah, you need a size bigger than GF(255) only if you want to divide your code to more than 255 minus a few pieces
19:08:20 <ais523> is there a GF(255)? it isn't a prime power
19:08:27 <b_jonas> sorry, I mean GF(256)
19:09:15 <b_jonas> and even if you want more than 255 or so pieces, which isn't that unreasonable in some cases, you probably want a smaller field than the DVD-sized one
19:09:16 <arseniiv> b_jonas: minus how many pieces approximately?
19:09:32 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think minus one piece in theory, but I'm not sure
19:09:50 <arseniiv> I see
19:10:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you store the value of the polynomial at 255 places, and its value at the remaining place (say 0) is the secret data
19:10:36 <b_jonas> and you choose all coefficients of teh polynomial except the constant one in a cryptographically random way
19:11:06 <ais523> b_jonas: that's if you want all the parts to be necessary
19:11:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you just choose a lower degree polynomial if you don't want that
19:11:25 <ais523> if you want all the parts but one to be necessary, you choose all the coefficients but two in a cryptographically random way, don't you?
19:11:28 <ais523> so you can have a lower degree
19:11:31 <b_jonas> if you choose a degree d polynomial, you need d+1 pieces
19:11:34 <ais523> oh, right, you choose the top one as 0
19:11:44 <ais523> so we had the same idea but expressed it different ways
19:12:51 <b_jonas> but in practice, it's enough to secret share a fresh symmetric crypto key this way, and encode all your data with that key
19:13:11 <arseniiv> yeah the scheme seems familiar but I don’t get yet how does it scale from a single scalar in GF(…) to a piece of data, is it just componentwise? Ah, it seems it should be the only way
19:13:43 <b_jonas> which is why it doesn't even matter much how efficient your implementation is, but you can get efficient implementations, because the CPU people optimized the implementations, because they need GF(2**n) computations for other reasons, such as CRC
19:14:03 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, you do this to each byte of the data
19:14:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: see the comments in David Madore's program
19:14:46 <b_jonas> it describes the scheme well, plus also describes how it does computations on the particular finite field
19:15:51 <b_jonas> ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c
19:16:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh! I thought it would be obfuscated
19:17:27 <b_jonas> the IOCCC entry is based on that, and that one is obfuscated
19:18:30 <b_jonas> there's a great blog entry on it: www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-10-14.2083.html , telling that David didn't even know about the obfuscated program until the IOCCC committee announced the results and declared that David is also a winner because the obfuscated program was largely (and with attribution) based on his non-obfu program
19:19:04 <b_jonas> that is like winning winning the IOCCC
19:19:54 <b_jonas> I mean, that sentence is hard to parse, but
19:21:52 <arseniiv> ah, so he didn’t write an IOCCC entry himself!
19:21:54 <b_jonas> people sometimes say in an informal way that they won something that isn't even a competition because of style points, and in that sense, winning the IOCCC isn't a competition, because you wouldn't think there's a competition among IOCCC winners for who wins IOCCC the most awesome way, but it turns out that one can win that non-competition, and David showed how
19:22:15 <b_jonas> excatly, but the judges decided that he was an author
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23:55:15 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70281&oldid=70273 * JonoCode9374 * (+322) /* Examples */
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