00:07:05 Do you like this? 00:12:49 -!- MTGBusyBeaver42 has joined. 00:15:59 zzo38: I don't really like it, the affinity is unlikely to matter especially on a spell that costs {1}, and {4}, {T} seems way too expensive for the activated ability 00:16:25 actually I think it wouldn't be worth playing even if the ability cost {0} 00:19:52 What if "poison" is deleted? 00:21:29 better, still pretty narrow though. it just seems like a much worse Chronomaton 00:21:42 that's a lot more interesting; I think {4}, {T} is probably still too expensive but it has the core of an interesting card now 00:22:43 and who/what is "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"? 00:26:47 The name of a (unofficial) legendary creature card. (That in turn is the name of a character from a Dungeons&Dragons game I played, although I now play GURPS and included that character too sometimes, although my main character is now Ziveruskex.) 00:29:48 -!- longname_ has joined. 00:30:44 -!- Hooloo42 has joined. 00:30:58 ais523, since it is just used for parity, could that last waterclock be a flooding clock instead? 00:31:04 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:31:04 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:31:37 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 00:32:20 MTGBusyBeaver42: which clock? apart from halt clocks, I don't think any of them could be flooding because you need to adjust apparently irrelevant clocks just to undo the steady decrement 00:32:23 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:32:45 E' 00:32:56 -!- lifthrasiir_ has joined. 00:33:23 -!- relrod_ has joined. 00:33:27 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 00:33:27 -!- relrod_ has joined. 00:33:30 but no i see it is a little more complicated than that 00:33:32 E' needs to run only once for multiple reasons, perhaps the most obvious is that it needs to adjust its own value relative to E by a set amount 00:33:52 which it can't do if it's been held in stasis (with increments and decrements cancelling out) for an arbitrary length of time and is flooding 00:34:08 -!- longname has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:08 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:08 -!- relrod has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:08 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:47 it cant just double itself and add itself to everything? 00:34:49 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod. 00:35:42 that seems like it would be difficult to track but yeah i dont think it would actually work 00:39:39 if it adjusts itself by any more than it should, it won't trigger the next time that it should 00:42:32 flooding clocks are so hard to work with 00:42:54 -!- Hooloo42 has quit (Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.). 00:44:11 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 00:50:53 Somehow, a few days ago, the NNTP server at aioe was confused about the highest article number in a newsgroup; trying to access it resulted in an error. However, it seems to be corrected now. Do you know why it does that? 00:52:26 no 00:54:51 (Even while that was broken, I was still able to use NEWNEWS to download the articles instead, since they don't disable NEWNEWS (although it seems that some servers do disable NEWNEWS, but aioe isn't one of them, fortunately).) 00:57:54 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:52:40 How much should be the activation cost be if "{4}, {T}" is too much, then? 02:00:00 probably just {T} or just mana like {3} 02:00:45 tapping the guy on your turn only if theres a counter on a player is pretty narrow 02:04:10 OK 02:36:11 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:51:15 Once I saw mahjong tiles that go up to ten. 03:10:16 -!- jpaldama has joined. 03:11:56 -!- jpaldama has left. 03:21:48 -!- rodgort` has joined. 03:22:49 -!- Hooloo42 has joined. 03:22:50 -!- divergence has joined. 03:23:39 -!- stux- has joined. 03:23:55 -!- ski_ has joined. 03:24:06 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:24:08 -!- mynery has joined. 03:27:03 -!- relrod_ has joined. 03:27:07 -!- relrod_ has quit (Changing host). 03:27:07 -!- relrod_ has joined. 03:28:46 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:46 -!- relrod has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:46 -!- ineiros_ has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:47 -!- myname has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:47 -!- joast has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:47 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:47 -!- stux has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:47 -!- diverger has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:47 -!- ski has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:48 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:48 -!- grumble has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:51 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod. 03:29:32 -!- grumble has joined. 03:35:48 -!- aloril has joined. 03:56:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:57:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:28:24 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski. 04:31:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:33:42 -!- imode has joined. 04:44:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:49:37 -!- MTGBusyBeaver42 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:01:40 -!- Hooloo42 has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 06:02:35 -!- stux- has quit (Quit: Aloha!). 06:04:21 -!- stux has joined. 06:43:21 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:07:38 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:13:11 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:38:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:42:11 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 08:32:15 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:44:45 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:58:21 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:01:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:03:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:04:39 -!- mynery has changed nick to myname. 09:09:54 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:41:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:45:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:19:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:23:46 -!- shachaf has joined. 10:53:58 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 11:11:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:13:16 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:16:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:16:50 huh the parallel between girl genius and schlock mercenary increases 11:22:22 int-e: ^ 11:46:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:46:34 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:47:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:47:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:58:40 -!- xelxebar has joined. 12:05:14 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 12:06:30 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:19:03 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:29:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:36:48 -!- MDude has joined. 12:37:31 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:58:03 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:58:56 -!- xelxebar has joined. 12:59:19 [[DAMN COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70277 * Hakerh400 * (+17258) +[[DAMN COVID-19]] 12:59:23 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70278&oldid=70253 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[DAMN COVID-19]] 12:59:26 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70279&oldid=70243 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[DAMN COVID-19]] 13:15:02 whoever user Hakerh400 is...lol 13:16:22 making a silly language around a serious topic 13:17:40 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 13:18:24 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:27:15 that actually looks like a decent puzzle game idea 13:32:26 yes 13:33:28 but it gave me a laugh because of the name applied to it. i have a weird sense of humor 13:36:31 -!- b_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:13:54 “If there is a city in the current cell, remove it, otherwise add it (works only when all cities are previously infected)” => adding a city means the virus is quite intellectual! 14:16:56 I’m concerned by undefinedness of the distribution of random added cities. It’s stated that adding no cities has low probability and that the map should have one island after adding all new cities and have the same holes as before, but that all is too uncertain 14:17:14 though there is a reference implementation to look into 14:17:43 I presume also the map can’t become infinite 14:24:15 -!- joast has joined. 14:52:15 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:26:32 -!- b_jonas has joined. 16:36:11 [[IRCIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70280&oldid=69890 * Batman nair * (+498) More functions added to the program 16:51:21 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:53:02 -!- sprocklem has joined. 16:57:06 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 17:08:02 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:09:08 -!- sprocklem has joined. 17:10:44 You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland. 17:10:49 (Okay, so it's just a regular bank with a basement room for the safety deposit boxes.) 17:12:00 `grwp vault 17:12:03 No output. 17:12:08 `quote vault 17:12:11 No output. 17:17:30 nice. I hope it's not on a DVD, but on a media that stands time more reliably, such as an SD card. 17:17:45 or printed on acid-free paper, but it would be hard to restore from that. 17:19:07 Hmm, I thought actual DVDs are pretty good. But no clue about the writable media, they're bound to be quite a bit worse. 17:19:49 -!- user24 has joined. 17:20:43 int-e: DVDs are good if you need to store data for only a few years. they're less good if you want to store the data for 20 yeras. 17:21:04 oh yeah, I mean burnable DVDs 17:21:34 factory molded DVDs are supposedly better, but those are published in lots of copies, so if you lose one, you can probably get the data from somewhere else 17:22:45 I make backups on DVDs, but they are recorded rather than pressed DVDs. I don't know how long it is expected to last, though. (They are DVD-R, in case that matters. I don't know if DVD+R is better or worse.) 17:24:00 I make such backups too, because having the backups a year or two later can also be potentially valuable if the data is lost from my hard disk 17:24:22 although these days I don't do that much, because data is becoming large, 17:24:31 so I mostly back up to hard disks and SD cards instead 17:25:16 meanwhile, today I installed a better ceiling light to my work room at home, with the help of my father, so now the lighting is actually decent 17:25:25 I have fit all of the files on my computer on three DVDs (using compressed tape archives); one for /home, one for /var, and one for everything else. 17:25:37 I'll still have to fine tune it, the three bulb holders are individually rotatable in 2D 17:25:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:26:08 sure, I use compression to back up to hard disk too 17:26:17 compression is useful 17:26:36 The copy is on a hard disk, which I'm not so certain about the durability of. I've got three that I rotate cyclically (one in the machine for weekly incremental copies, one on the shelf, and one in the vault), and run long-form SMART self tests on every swap. 17:26:37 cmprssn s sfl 17:27:08 fizzie: sure, that's why you copy to multiple hard disks. each individual hard disk isn't too reliable, but you can copy between them fast. I should buy more hard disks. 17:28:40 I've got two blank M-DISCs that came with the external DVD drive I got recently, but I'm not sure what to put on them. They're allegedly supposed to last for a thousand years, but I don't know how much that is marketing hype. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC 17:30:41 I'd guess marketing hype too 17:32:52 CDs were believed to last a very long time when first created, that subsequently turned out to be incorrect 17:32:59 because the were less durable than expected 17:33:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:34:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:39:28 Apparently Canadian government says that DVD-R discs will last for 50-100 years if with gold, or 10-20 years if with silver. 17:42:23 And You believe what the GOVT says? 17:43:23 It depends on the country? 17:43:37 Well, considering that DVDs were not invented 50 years ago, I don't think so. 17:44:14 zzo38: are there details for that statement? are they staying that they last for that long in library archive conditions, that is, at constant temperature and constant low humidity? 17:44:43 Light (UV in particular) probably matters as well. 17:44:53 probably 17:46:42 It says if you do not write on the disc, the disc is stored in a case, in vertical orientation, in a cool and dry environment. 17:47:03 Most rolls of thermal paper used for receipts here have a writing on the back that says it's guaranteed to be readable for 8 years, provided you store it away from direct sunlight, in temperature btw 18°C and 23°C, on humidity 50±8%. this last one is impossible to satisfy at home, so if you actually want to keep the information on the thermal paper for more than two years, it's better to scan or 17:47:09 photocopy it. 17:47:24 I don't do all of those things; there is some writing on the disc, although I store them in the basement. 17:47:36 zzo38: cool and dry environments, right, that's the tricky part 17:47:47 I could manage not writing on them, instead writing on a paper case surrounding it 17:47:52 envelope 17:48:30 what I do is storing most of the DVD backups in my parent's house, not because that's a better site, but just to have off-site backups 17:48:45 if I buy more hard disks, then I should do that with rotated hard disk backups too. 17:50:16 (I also store the discs in a cupboard, which is dark inside, so there isn't light on it.) 18:09:33 -!- imode has joined. 18:16:15 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:34:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:35:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:45:13 You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland. => yay! 18:47:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:50:16 re, backups: there are also tools to use redundancy to make chosen files more robust to errors. Though I don’t know if there are any that leave at least one usual copy of the file intact so one can read that without the need to resynthesize those file chunks, if they hope that the data is still intact 18:54:05 so I read up on intuitionistic Kripke models and it seems yes, all classical models are trivially these models with one world, and also I think one can make a clever model where in one word it’s a classical standard model, and a world above that hosts a classical nonstandard model, and maybe in a world above that there is even larger nonstandard model, or one can add a world any other way 18:54:15 so, even weirder 18:54:29 arseniiv: you can do that too. let's say you split your backup to three files, each half a DVD size. you distribute two copies of each across three DVDs. now you have three DVDs so that if any two of them are readable, you can restore your backup from them, and you don't need special tools for that redudnancy. 18:54:56 at least not more than what I already use to split my backup to several files so that I can distribute them among DVDs just because they don't fit on a single DVD 18:56:42 arseniiv: most schemes for adding redundancy leave one copy intac 18:56:45 *intact 18:57:14 b_jonas: this is a good method but it requires a lot of space to hold the unwritten archive. Though having all that space is better than what I was doing when I used DVD backups 18:57:19 actually, there are coding schemes where you can take, say, 10 DVDs, add an additional 4 DVDs as check information, and reconstruct the entire set if any 4 are lost 18:57:34 (or damaged) 18:57:44 but the first 10 contain all the information in the clear 18:58:13 arseniiv: you need a DVD and half of space only, you can construct a DVD file system on the fly from two directories these days trivially 18:58:34 but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory 18:58:41 you don't need more space than the backup 18:59:41 what I was doing when I used DVD backups => (I tried to solve that oprimization problem by hand, writing directories and parts of them; it was a grindy form of art) 19:00:06 I would expect USB sticks to be more durable than DVDs (although considerably more expensive) 19:00:14 that said, I'm not certain 19:00:41 but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory => yeah that was what I used to do and it was awful 19:01:10 especially with video 19:01:21 there's also the more trickier secret sharing method, in which you distribute some data (in practice a symmetricy cryptography) key among three CDs such that it can be reconstructed from any two, but not from any one. obviously then you can't just write the data in plain text. this can be useful if you want remote backups of your secret key in places where there's a chance that they can be stolen. 19:02:11 hmm, I wonder if error correction codes can be used to do that trivially? 19:02:20 start with your plaintext P; generate random data R 19:02:22 ais523: it's hard to tell. SD cards are certainly more resistant to bad storage conditions, and I suspect that they last long, but I can't tell if they last longer than a DVD in ideal (library archives with controlled temperature) 19:02:27 store P^R and R on the first two DVDs 19:02:39 actually, no, that doesn't work 19:02:49 because the "check" DVD will contain P in plaintext 19:02:53 ais523: you can use a trivial xor method if you don't mind storing more data than necessary, which is fine with a secret key stored on digital media; 19:03:20 ais523: if you want an optimal solution, you can use a solution based on polynomial interpolation, as explained in the description of David Madore's accidental IOCCC winnning entry 19:03:27 IIRC the most common failure mode for flash memory (which SD cards and USB sticks are based on) is becoming read-only, which wouldn't be a huge issue in this context 19:03:41 b_jonas: I normally use polynomial interpolation for this 19:03:56 ever since I won a codegolf competition with it 19:04:15 ais523: I’ve seen something like this a month or so ago, that’s why I mentioned redundancy in the first place. I’ll look for the link… 19:04:19 it has basically no downsides as far as I can see, other than the finite field often being annoying to construct and operate on 19:04:21 ais523: nice. that should be possible, because the IOCCC entry is naturally somewhat golfed too. 19:05:18 and I know some golfy ways to act on finite fields (though these don't interpolate polynomials): 19:05:24 it seems that in practice, finite fields are normally stored in lookup tables, because there aren't any "fast" ways of generating them on the fly (unless they have a prime size, obviously) 19:05:52 at least, if you want to be able to number the elements consistently 19:05:53 found it: https://viereck.ch/scatter/ 19:06:45 https://www.perlmonks.com/?spoil=1;node_id=863110 golfy computation on GF(128) based on bitshifts (I think there's a faster way but you can't easily write it in perl, you need to use cpu-specific carryless multiplication instructions); https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 golfy GF(128) based on lookup tables; 19:07:20 and there are much golfier ways to compute on GF(127) 19:07:25 GF(256) is probably the most interesting one for error correction codes 19:07:42 or GF(size of DVD), I guess 19:07:45 ais523: sure, and David Madore's accidental IOCCC entry implements GF(255) IIRC 19:08:12 nah, you need a size bigger than GF(255) only if you want to divide your code to more than 255 minus a few pieces 19:08:20 is there a GF(255)? it isn't a prime power 19:08:27 sorry, I mean GF(256) 19:09:15 and even if you want more than 255 or so pieces, which isn't that unreasonable in some cases, you probably want a smaller field than the DVD-sized one 19:09:16 b_jonas: minus how many pieces approximately? 19:09:32 arseniiv: I think minus one piece in theory, but I'm not sure 19:09:50 I see 19:10:20 arseniiv: you store the value of the polynomial at 255 places, and its value at the remaining place (say 0) is the secret data 19:10:36 and you choose all coefficients of teh polynomial except the constant one in a cryptographically random way 19:11:06 b_jonas: that's if you want all the parts to be necessary 19:11:21 ais523: no, you just choose a lower degree polynomial if you don't want that 19:11:25 if you want all the parts but one to be necessary, you choose all the coefficients but two in a cryptographically random way, don't you? 19:11:28 so you can have a lower degree 19:11:31 if you choose a degree d polynomial, you need d+1 pieces 19:11:34 oh, right, you choose the top one as 0 19:11:44 so we had the same idea but expressed it different ways 19:12:51 but in practice, it's enough to secret share a fresh symmetric crypto key this way, and encode all your data with that key 19:13:11 yeah the scheme seems familiar but I don’t get yet how does it scale from a single scalar in GF(…) to a piece of data, is it just componentwise? Ah, it seems it should be the only way 19:13:43 which is why it doesn't even matter much how efficient your implementation is, but you can get efficient implementations, because the CPU people optimized the implementations, because they need GF(2**n) computations for other reasons, such as CRC 19:14:03 arseniiv: yes, you do this to each byte of the data 19:14:30 arseniiv: see the comments in David Madore's program 19:14:46 it describes the scheme well, plus also describes how it does computations on the particular finite field 19:15:51 ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c 19:16:54 b_jonas: oh! I thought it would be obfuscated 19:17:27 the IOCCC entry is based on that, and that one is obfuscated 19:18:30 there's a great blog entry on it: www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-10-14.2083.html , telling that David didn't even know about the obfuscated program until the IOCCC committee announced the results and declared that David is also a winner because the obfuscated program was largely (and with attribution) based on his non-obfu program 19:19:04 that is like winning winning the IOCCC 19:19:54 I mean, that sentence is hard to parse, but 19:21:52 ah, so he didn’t write an IOCCC entry himself! 19:21:54 people sometimes say in an informal way that they won something that isn't even a competition because of style points, and in that sense, winning the IOCCC isn't a competition, because you wouldn't think there's a competition among IOCCC winners for who wins IOCCC the most awesome way, but it turns out that one can win that non-competition, and David showed how 19:22:15 excatly, but the judges decided that he was an author 19:40:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 19:44:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:54:24 -!- divergence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:56:27 -!- diverger has joined. 20:04:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:42:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:42:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:43:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:44:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:33:55 -!- longname_ has changed nick to longname. 23:34:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:46:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:48:39 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:49:02 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:55:15 [[Function x(y)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70281&oldid=70273 * JonoCode9374 * (+322) /* Examples */