< 1585008108 205459 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585011613 767006 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.9.112.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1585011674 420318 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 600 seconds < 1585012273 8686 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1585012414 397472 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1585012508 278936 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1585012789 215338 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1585012833 416994 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1585014518 793382 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1585015096 377200 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a document with a format for rule options for mahjong. One thing it includes is the format of pattern strings, which can be used for irregular hands (as well as for scoring elements in regular hands, too), for example "=" and "!" denote common kind of irregular hands. < 1585016011 787150 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1585018474 543556 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1585018867 307092 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1585018868 821270 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Changing host < 1585018868 821333 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1585019214 274833 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1585021040 205954 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1585021168 91766 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Can you guess how these notations are working from these examples? Probably not much, but maybe a little bit; I don't know.) > 1585024542 392389 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Fac 5* 10New user account < 1585025329 719646 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite > 1585025746 232562 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70460&oldid=70228 5* 03Fac 5* (+136) 10 < 1585025961 696051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. I thought I was getting closer to making lambdabot work with ghc-8.8... and now one dependency builds with ghc-8.8.1 but broke its API and knocked over some more dominoes. < 1585026185 122052 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What API broke? < 1585027342 343769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing interesting < 1585027349 773852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just chasing dependencies. < 1585027400 764177 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1585027405 915987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-sum-0.6.2.2 exports a different Data.GADT.Compare than the previous version < 1585027633 622876 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they were not supposed to make incompatible unless the major version number is changed? < 1585027821 856322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes. But accidents happen. < 1585027838 244596 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1585027860 143449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm partly responsible for this one, could've paid more attention in a pull request and avoided this. < 1585028365 805338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though in that case I'd still be chasing the same dependencies, because dependent-sum-0.6.2.0 doesn't support ghc-8.8.1 > 1585031807 166296 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Qwote14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70461 5* 03Fac 5* (+1408) 10Created page with "==Interpreter Written in Rust==
     let args: Vec = std::env::args().collect();     let mut buffer: String = String::new();      match OpenOptions::new().read(tr..."
> 1585032006 276509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Qwote14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70462&oldid=70461 5* 03Fac 5* (-48) 10
< 1585032517 570079 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recently wrote a program in Haskell to calculate probabilities of achieving a total or less on a set of abnormal dice. Haskell is certainly different from other programming languages. I do not use Haskell a lot, but I find that for some things (such as this), it works very well, because the different way it works is suitable for this use.
< 1585032549 327630 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that different programming languages are good for different purposes; other people have other opinions (as well as variants of what I said). What do you think, though?
< 1585035591 204849 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1585035924 21798 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye!
< 1585036044 917051 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
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< 1585039619 170630 :ElizabethCo!6ea8cf75@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.110.168.207.117 QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1585041260 687552 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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> 1585046540 331855 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ZFC++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70463&oldid=70240 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10/* I/O format */
< 1585047924 360292 :Amabella!6d6f9a0e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.111.154.14 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1585048407 517007 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ftoc 75
< 1585048409 68268 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :75.00°F = 23.89°C
< 1585049379 771795 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585055256 407376 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I configure firefox such that when I type into the urlbar, it does not open a popup with list of suggestions by default, but does still open it if I press down? 
< 1585056037 855041 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585056096 470059 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok I have another question. Suppose I have N people that regularily meet in a room with space for M persons. Now I want to know how many meetings must I have such that every person has at least seen every other person once.
< 1585056135 308121 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: do they plan out the meetings to make this fast, or do M of them just meet randomly each turn?
< 1585056146 397743 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I have a set of N and pick subsets of M such that every member has been in a subset with every other member and I kinda want to know how many subsets I must pick.
< 1585056152 775808 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's the more mathematical description of the problem.
< 1585056162 195651 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want to pick the meetings
< 1585056246 381220 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... you have N persons and you divide them into groups of M persons and each of those persons shake hands. Then you select another group of M persons and so on. How many groups do I need to pick such that everybody has shaken hands with everybody.
< 1585056260 27936 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a whole bunch of similar problems that are fundamentally all the same underlying problem.
< 1585056424 470625 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the actual RL problem I'm having is this: I have N persons and I have K rooms each allowing for N/K persons. Each day you split the people up. Obviously you can't be in two rooms on the same day. The question is how many days does it take such that everybody has been with everybody else. 
< 1585056428 982254 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have no clue on how to do this :(
< 1585056470 223651 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other question is how do I plan those subsets rather than just knowing how many days it takes.
< 1585056499 641672 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(currently we have two rooms)
< 1585056521 256672 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like 10 people, 2 rooms meaning there will be two groups of 5 each day.
< 1585056548 881816 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I guess it'll be unavoidable that somebody sees somebody multiple times.
< 1585056692 680014 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585056751 3560 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: re your blc non-primitive recursive function, i suppose `\f\x blah` means `\f.(\x.blah)`?
< 1585057116 484703 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: http://codepad.org/VpWxojiJ
< 1585057127 489933 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^- kinda like this (this is with 8 persons and 2 rooms of 4 persons each)
< 1585057152 323591 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this arrangement would take 5 days. I have no idea if you can do it in less than 5 days. 
< 1585057162 786705 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: Yes. (Though I'd expect myself to write \f\x. blah)
< 1585057196 187302 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :er yes you had the dot
< 1585057225 201523 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: But indeed this particular flavor of lambda calculus syntax makes the . optional, instead of allowing multiple variables after \
< 1585057310 514844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kritixilithos: (context is https://github.com/tromp/AIT/ which has an implementation of BLC and a tool to convert lambda calculus (plus let) into BLC)
< 1585057340 106289 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: that's a slightly different question. for 10 people meeting in rooms of capacity 5 you need 4 days, but I don't know the answer in general for any number of peope and capacity of the rooms.
< 1585057398 673088 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: for 8 people with rooms of capacity 4, 3 days should be enough
< 1585057549 784014 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 
< 1585057605 882725 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure about that
< 1585057676 438761 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1585057759 440557 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585057811 817965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh a combinatorial design problem...
< 1585057823 77154 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1585057906 602483 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :see https://ibb.co/rpznWcp
< 1585057935 600863 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is with three colors and clearly 1 hasn't been with 7 and 8.
< 1585057956 302324 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2 hasn't been with 8 for example
< 1585057982 884368 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 5 hasn't been with 3
< 1585058004 766913 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. etc. I don't believe this can be done with 3 colors.
< 1585058024 239442 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1 color = 1 day)
< 1585058043 877836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I don't believe in 3 days either. 4 is possible.
< 1585058068 195349 :wib_jonas!b03f0b9f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.11.159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right
< 1585058093 901672 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait
< 1585058103 8046 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm stupid.
< 1585058176 929372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 works after all. 1234|5678, 1256|3478, 1278|3456
< 1585058202 588869 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it even works if you have 4 couples that stick together)
< 1585058341 230541 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that (4 couples that always stick together) corresponds to dividing K_4 into 3 perfect matchings, which is something I've done before.
< 1585058401 562821 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1585058458 417858 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the question is whether it always requires 3 :)
< 1585058462 301491 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whether it scales with more people
< 1585058547 278100 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585058662 614781 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the same construction works if you have 4n people and rooms of capacity 2n.
< 1585058899 11755 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have some strategy to pick the groups? 
< 1585058961 2529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reduces to the case of 4 people; rather than couples, pick groups of size n that stick together.
< 1585058962 103464 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in something that helps towards an algorithm :D)
< 1585060556 764345 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.12.56.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585060900 457352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 4n+2 people and room size 2n+1 you need 4 days. Fun.
< 1585061493 129263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start with 2n people; label them by the rooms (A or B, of capacity n) they stayed in. After two days, there are 4 labels, AA, AB, BA, BB; simple counting shows that the same number of poeple have labels AA and BB; the same is true for labels AB and BA. So you can make n disjoint pairs of people who have not been together in a room yet (pairing AA with BB, and AB with BA). If n is odd, then one...
< 1585061499 210193 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...pair is split on the 3rd day, which means a 4th day is required.
< 1585061951 429865 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.3
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< 1585062086 807663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if there are 2 people, they'll never meet at all.
< 1585062102 235177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that about covers it all.
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< 1585072485 324962 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
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> 1585073583 680348 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HGFTSNOA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70464&oldid=70430 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+128) 10/* String indexing */
< 1585073896 632950 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so our govnt has expressed desire to use tracking apps to track citizens
< 1585073906 979750 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... on one hand that's probably a great idea for this situation
< 1585073912 34225 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand... erm...
> 1585073955 989927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HGFTSNOA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70465&oldid=70464 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+96) 10/* String indexing */
< 1585073957 564446 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :very slippery slope
> 1585074239 27809 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HGFTSNOA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70466&oldid=70465 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+104) 10/* Keywords */
< 1585074355 357997 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one roll of toiletpaper for a single person usually easily lasts one week.
< 1585074382 909434 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a 12pack lasts you like 3 months. If one buys 3-4 packs then you have toilet paper for a year.
< 1585074494 781589 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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< 1585074558 591947 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other one box of pasta 400g is at most 1600kcal (as 1g of carb is 4kcal and this assumes pasta is 100% carb which it isn't) which will last you exactly one day at most.
< 1585074655 504214 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a nice discussion on hn recently about bidets https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22618253
< 1585074888 592711 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i wonder how many "emergency powers" will be granted and never revoked
< 1585075249 442538 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
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< 1585075280 627108 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... full confinement is a tricky thing. I mean it's probably less of a tricky thing if you have a house or an apparment with a balcony and things..
< 1585075284 936750 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still..
< 1585075314 525457 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently we have a prohibition on gatherings of more than 5 people
< 1585075345 261463 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess banning gatherings entirely is on the table but even that isn't as harsh as full confinement.
< 1585075379 345335 :longname!~airbouy@75-26-238-119.lightspeed.glvwil.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1585075413 73665 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assume currently the government is thinking that it isn't stoppable anymore and a lot of people will get it so there's no point in full confinement
< 1585075418 191438 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they want to keep the economy running
< 1585075461 879753 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how tracking would be a reasonable measure for this strategy.
< 1585075479 437436 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently you still have to go to work potentially using public transport.
< 1585075516 461910 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially one thing you could do is to close businesses for 14 days once a worker is ill
< 1585075522 594135 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need tracking for that.
< 1585075539 363401 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you have tracking you'd have to do this as well
< 1585075557 554237 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because obviously you had contact with your coworkers)
< 1585075629 868434 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: depends. I guess legally speaking they are automatically revoked once the government ends the "emergency state"
< 1585075656 531090 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing that laws based on emergency powers are only valid during the emergency state.
< 1585075705 939577 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the legislative branch of the government would have to uphold those laws.
< 1585075716 513851 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the ones made by the executive branch based on emergency powers)
< 1585075718 816161 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1585075744 321339 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in essence in my country this means that the people have to uphold them
< 1585075747 144318 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585075764 123997 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :parliament can't really make laws without our approval.
< 1585075823 675258 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1585075869 744616 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :although technically it works this way: parliament makes a new law... you can call for a vote but I think until the vote is done the law is actually in place
< 1585075924 698156 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :governments tend to keep 'emergency states' going as long as they can
< 1585075986 702085 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be decades until we reach the point where there are no COVID-19 cases anywhere on Earth, if it ever happens (doubtful)
< 1585076001 698213 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can claim that the emergency is ongoing basically as long as they like
< 1585076008 971106 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that it could flare back into pandemic status at any point
< 1585076011 171096 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of true
< 1585076027 17379 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe but I mean... law and politics are always... "soft". It's never "formal".
< 1585076041 180997 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean.. the government can use emergency powers in emergencies
< 1585076050 339403 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think it is defined what exactly is an emergency
< 1585076071 732933 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you know like "natural disaster, public health crisis" but it doesn't define at what point something is a natural disaster worth of an emergency
< 1585076111 381039 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the fascinating thing. Politics requires cooperation from the people. The government can say whatever they want as long as the people don't accept it...
< 1585076144 233046 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's complicated
< 1585076150 113134 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :see here. The top governments have issued emergency laws which local goverments decided to overwrite (which is something that is legally not possible)
< 1585076163 522879 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the government issued a declaration that this is not legal but the local goverment said "meh"
< 1585076165 9418 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get away with things the majority don't like if you keep it secret, or if you misinform them
< 1585076167 14321 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... what you gonna do.
< 1585076175 936420 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if push comes to shove and the military and police are on board
< 1585076178 117074 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :march in with the army?
< 1585076181 459805 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585076197 62694 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can only do that if the people think this is worth marching into that one little state
< 1585076260 101773 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah I hope it doesn't come to tracking.
< 1585076323 952595 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always some tension between parts of the country that speak different languages anyway.
< 1585076379 571250 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one part is too small to ever have a representative in government (or maybe they do now as a first I haven't really kept up with this)
< 1585076417 136806 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but generally you don't care about what happens in parts that don't speak your language
< 1585076422 314276 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :language is a powerful barrier.
< 1585076516 827300 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeh this is going to be fun because for organizations on national level those local laws are illegal thus you wouldn't be able to apply for some unemployed insurances
< 1585076539 858823 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the closing of your business wasn't legal on a national level even though it was mandatory due to local laws.
< 1585076558 454990 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also interesting. If you have a local law X and a national law Y that conflict each other... which one do you have to follow?
< 1585076596 913377 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :courts are usually local so if you break a local law you'll be put in front of the local court I guess which will find you guilty
< 1585076617 393921 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'd have to take it further to the national court which would then presumably overrule that guilty sentence.
< 1585076666 279309 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess you don't have to follow it but you will be convicted by the 1st instance and then you have to appeal to 2nd instance and you're good. Messy but works.
< 1585076667 624277 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that most people should not go to work during this time (except doctors).
< 1585076668 421928 :laerling!~lsf@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in
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< 1585076705 451821 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah but this is only feasible if you can realistically erradicate the virus within a reasonable time frame?
< 1585076706 408540 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(O, and also the fire fighting, too, if it becomes necessary.)
< 1585076731 697745 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you're just locking people up until every last case is gone which may take years?
< 1585076775 705095 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this approach doesn't work long term. You need production for medical supplies and foods.
< 1585076788 629979 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you need production for packaging for foods
< 1585076793 973831 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need transport of foods
< 1585076804 652064 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you also need production and maintenance of for transport of food
< 1585076814 335665 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and medical supplies too
< 1585076841 806654 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably really tricky to decide what you're going to shut down and what not
< 1585076872 320903 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can shut down like can producers for now and use the cans they have in stock
< 1585076875 372342 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how long will that last?
< 1585076893 650541 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to be aware of the entire supply chain 
< 1585076909 933921 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much easier to just shut down clearly non-essential stuff
< 1585076918 966624 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people can make their own food and growing stuff in their own garden too, I suppose.
< 1585076921 709693 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like hair stylist, make-up artists
< 1585076935 114516 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or restaurants
< 1585076941 117101 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that.
< 1585076956 109683 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean currently you can only sell food in my country
< 1585076966 857001 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1585076969 114105 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in stores
< 1585076973 797109 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can buy everything online 
< 1585077013 652318 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose one feasible approach is to close food stores as well and have delivery people in protective gear that deliver food to people's home
< 1585077016 285272 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :People should be advised to stay home and the law should ensure that if their employer requires them to work then the employer will be arrested (once you get the opportunity to arrest them).
< 1585077020 197536 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one way to reduce a lot of contacts.
< 1585077112 78883 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd agree that you certainly can close most businesses for a time limited period.
< 1585077198 251653 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just hope that we will learn from this crisis and that we as a society improve and move away from "consumer society"
< 1585077271 34190 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sadly I doubt it.
< 1585077615 411994 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean exactly
< 1585077620 709359 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :people have enjoyed consuming things since the dawn of time
< 1585078259 944125 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's a term translated from "Konsumgesellschaft"
< 1585078295 473846 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means being overly materialistic, put values into objects, desire luxury things, express status through objects, always wanting new things even though there's no functional need
< 1585078308 505435 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :buying things that aren't necessary only to throw them away soon without having had a real need for them
< 1585078331 81251 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :examples would be buying things that are currently hyped because they are hyped but you actually don't need them
< 1585078379 656183 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite I guess would be minimalism. You reduce your lifestyle to what is necessary to you and buy things only on a strict need basis, you don't express your status through expensive objects
< 1585078394 707738 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you try to consume as little as possible, you value nature and people
< 1585078398 698586 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what's generally understood.
< 1585078671 961075 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you should reduce "consumer society"
< 1585079632 756032 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1585079698 793736 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but minimalism has become its own form of middle class status signalling
< 1585079704 267478 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://vruba.tumblr.com/post/45256059128/wealth-risk-and-stuff
< 1585079735 387484 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true
< 1585080022 884411 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"value nature and people" can mean "spend tons of money on unnecessary travel" and your instagram photos from exotic places become as much an expensive status good as a luxury car or whatever
< 1585080043 580871 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and preaching the virtues of minimalism can tread close to austerity politics
< 1585080057 150999 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well granted... going backpacking is something you can only do if you're rich
< 1585080057 473426 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like every so often conservatives in the USA get outraged that you can buy steak and lobster on food stamps
< 1585080063 570880 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause the poor should eat only gruel and plain toast
< 1585080072 60470 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind that it's a fixed allocation per month regardless
< 1585080096 167202 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: right, rich in the sense of money or rich in the sense of few obligations and a safety net
< 1585080102 409063 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way
< 1585080112 946591 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the difference between backpackers and homeless people
< 1585080131 745830 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been technically homeless for months, but I knew that I had friends to stay with and a high paying job awaiting me after x months so it's not really the same
< 1585080187 509331 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i don't disagree with you exactly
< 1585080202 551845 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a kind of complicated thing
< 1585080216 374858 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeh I've been "homeless" for a while too but not "homeless" as in "living on the streets"
< 1585080252 809081 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I mean you certainly can have minimalism when you're poor but yeah you'll have to bulk buy food for sure
< 1585080294 447077 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also usually minimalist might have a safety net in the sense of "I can throw this away... should I ever need this in a year or two I can just re-buy it"
< 1585080302 217005 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1585080304 967715 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can't do when poor
< 1585080317 17467 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "I only want 1 pair of sneakers so I'll give these away"
< 1585080324 129172 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1585080331 891516 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sneakers break and you don't have a spare pair so you have to buy a new one as well
< 1585080335 382813 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't do that when poor
< 1585080352 249795 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the stereotype of poor people having a bunch of junked cars and washing machines on their lawn
< 1585080356 288845 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to look down on it as trashy
< 1585080374 741462 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe they can't afford to throw them out because they might need them for parts
< 1585080381 247720 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are slowly acquiring the parts to get them working again
< 1585080384 938332 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, can you make your own shoes and stuff?
< 1585080389 461796 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can't just toss the whole thing and buy a brand new shiny samsung washing machine
< 1585080404 372451 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sitting here not having to wash my own clothes
< 1585080407 893615 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for being rich.
< 1585080420 967435 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's because I live in a hotel.
< 1585080431 315220 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even have a washing machine
< 1585080443 725471 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other thing to do is to wash the clothes less often if they aren't so dirty.
< 1585080469 458554 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally I'm far from minimalist, I own a lot of stuff, much of it is tools and supplies for my various activities (electronics, ham radio, mushroom growing) and ditto for my wife and her hobbies
< 1585080478 913647 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's a good case for owning stuff
< 1585080488 461098 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still have too much and it's hard to find what i need when i need it, which is a problem
< 1585080503 684714 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I own a lot of stuff. I used to have rented three places equipped with stuff...
< 1585080516 194115 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. "owned"
< 1585080554 969500 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good think my income could support my shenanigans due to poor mental health...
< 1585080558 131286 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing
< 1585080652 952401 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah also there are videos of people having like 3-4 clothes
< 1585080655 128689 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean.. great
< 1585080661 421649 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wouldn't make it in my country
< 1585080669 155266 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lucky you you have an office job
< 1585080725 638253 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you live in a place where you don't need winter/summer clothes then fuck yeah I could go by with two pair of jeans, two t-shirts and stuff.
< 1585081386 327580 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1585081641 646732 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Love of money is the root of all evil.
< 1585082084 740342 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. practically speaking there are things that force you to spend more money than necessary
< 1585082096 518942 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could buy some land for 10k build a house for 20k and you'd be set at 30k
< 1585082105 379319 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is about 3 years worth of rent otherwise
< 1585082119 231429 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 2years if you don't have a cheap appartment
< 1585082145 517585 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason why you can't do that is because a.) you'd be stationary then b.) very few people sell <200m^2 pieces of land
< 1585082182 977324 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people buying land buy large pieces so sellers have no incentive to actually divide their land into smaller parcels to sell
< 1585082225 354203 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's one thing that forces you to pay more money than necessary. If you think about it 1.2k per month for an appartment is way too much
< 1585082235 881448 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why rents are so expensive.
< 1585082249 148546 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they rent these since the 1965
< 1585082283 811723 :mroman!52c5a0eb@82-197-160-235.init7.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that appartment would have had to cost about 800k
< 1585082698 232859 :rain1!~debian@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
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< 1585087539 328126 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One feature of Pokemon Card GB2 that I don't like is that if you play Energy Search and you have any energy cards in your draw pile you are required to take one. (I don't know what would be the proper rule for this, but if it is like Magic: the Gathering, you would not be required to take one, although you would still be required in the case of Computer Search.)
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< 1585088389 272736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-159.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: M:tG's is the good rule. the rationale is that it would be inconvenient to prove to the opponent that you have no card matching the criteria in your deck, since for that, the opponent or a judge would have to look at every card in your deck (at least the first time that happens)
< 1585088418 685516 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I agree. I don't know if Pokemon card is using a different rule, though.
< 1585088617 376905 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-50-7.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, level 32 Marowak's "Wail" attack can't be used if both benches are full (even though, if only one bench is full, both player's cards are still shuffled anyways).
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< 1585093164 595904 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
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