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01:58:16 <zzo38> I wrote a document with a format for rule options for mahjong. One thing it includes is the format of pattern strings, which can be used for irregular hands (as well as for scoring elements in regular hands, too), for example "<nt13>=" and "<n:.{7}>!" denote common kind of irregular hands.
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03:39:28 <zzo38> (Can you guess how these notations are working from these examples? Probably not much, but maybe a little bit; I don't know.)
04:35:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fac * New user account
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04:59:21 <int-e> Meh. I thought I was getting closer to making lambdabot work with ghc-8.8... and now one dependency builds with ghc-8.8.1 but broke its API and knocked over some more dominoes.
05:22:22 <int-e> nothing interesting
05:22:29 <int-e> I'm just chasing dependencies.
05:23:25 <int-e> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-sum-0.6.2.2 exports a different Data.GADT.Compare than the previous version
05:27:13 <zzo38> I thought they were not supposed to make incompatible unless the major version number is changed?
05:30:21 <int-e> zzo38: Yes. But accidents happen.
05:31:00 <int-e> I'm partly responsible for this one, could've paid more attention in a pull request and avoided this.
05:39:25 <int-e> Though in that case I'd still be chasing the same dependencies, because dependent-sum-0.6.2.0 doesn't support ghc-8.8.1
06:36:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70461 * Fac * (+1408) Created page with "==Interpreter Written in Rust== <pre> let args: Vec<String> = std::env::args().collect(); let mut buffer: String = String::new(); match OpenOptions::new().read(tr..."
06:40:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70462&oldid=70461 * Fac * (-48)
06:48:37 <zzo38> I recently wrote a program in Haskell to calculate probabilities of achieving a total or less on a set of abnormal dice. Haskell is certainly different from other programming languages. I do not use Haskell a lot, but I find that for some things (such as this), it works very well, because the different way it works is suitable for this use.
06:49:09 <zzo38> I think that different programming languages are good for different purposes; other people have other opinions (as well as variants of what I said). What do you think, though?
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13:07:36 <wib_jonas> How do I configure firefox such that when I type into the urlbar, it does not open a popup with list of suggestions by default, but does still open it if I press down?
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13:21:36 <mroman> ok I have another question. Suppose I have N people that regularily meet in a room with space for M persons. Now I want to know how many meetings must I have such that every person has at least seen every other person once.
13:22:15 <wib_jonas> mroman: do they plan out the meetings to make this fast, or do M of them just meet randomly each turn?
13:22:26 <mroman> basically I have a set of N and pick subsets of M such that every member has been in a subset with every other member and I kinda want to know how many subsets I must pick.
13:22:32 <mroman> I guess that's the more mathematical description of the problem.
13:24:06 <mroman> well... you have N persons and you divide them into groups of M persons and each of those persons shake hands. Then you select another group of M persons and so on. How many groups do I need to pick such that everybody has shaken hands with everybody.
13:24:20 <mroman> there's a whole bunch of similar problems that are fundamentally all the same underlying problem.
13:27:04 <mroman> but the actual RL problem I'm having is this: I have N persons and I have K rooms each allowing for N/K persons. Each day you split the people up. Obviously you can't be in two rooms on the same day. The question is how many days does it take such that everybody has been with everybody else.
13:27:08 <mroman> and I have no clue on how to do this :(
13:27:50 <mroman> the other question is how do I plan those subsets rather than just knowing how many days it takes.
13:28:19 <mroman> (currently we have two rooms)
13:28:41 <mroman> so like 10 people, 2 rooms meaning there will be two groups of 5 each day.
13:29:08 <mroman> also I guess it'll be unavoidable that somebody sees somebody multiple times.
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13:32:31 <kritixilithos> int-e: re your blc non-primitive recursive function, i suppose `\f\x blah` means `\f.(\x.blah)`?
13:38:36 <mroman> wib_jonas: http://codepad.org/VpWxojiJ
13:38:47 <mroman> ^- kinda like this (this is with 8 persons and 2 rooms of 4 persons each)
13:39:12 <mroman> so this arrangement would take 5 days. I have no idea if you can do it in less than 5 days.
13:39:22 <int-e> kritixilithos: Yes. (Though I'd expect myself to write \f\x. blah)
13:40:25 <int-e> kritixilithos: But indeed this particular flavor of lambda calculus syntax makes the . optional, instead of allowing multiple variables after \
13:41:50 <int-e> kritixilithos: (context is https://github.com/tromp/AIT/ which has an implementation of BLC and a tool to convert lambda calculus (plus let) into BLC)
13:42:20 <wib_jonas> mroman: that's a slightly different question. for 10 people meeting in rooms of capacity 5 you need 4 days, but I don't know the answer in general for any number of peope and capacity of the rooms.
13:43:18 <wib_jonas> mroman: for 8 people with rooms of capacity 4, 3 days should be enough
13:46:45 <mroman> I'm not so sure about that
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13:50:11 <int-e> Oh a combinatorial design problem...
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13:51:46 <mroman> see https://ibb.co/rpznWcp
13:52:15 <mroman> this is with three colors and clearly 1 hasn't been with 7 and 8.
13:52:36 <mroman> and 2 hasn't been with 8 for example
13:53:02 <mroman> and 5 hasn't been with 3
13:53:24 <mroman> etc. etc. I don't believe this can be done with 3 colors.
13:54:03 <int-e> Yeah I don't believe in 3 days either. 4 is possible.
13:56:16 <int-e> 3 works after all. 1234|5678, 1256|3478, 1278|3456
13:56:42 <int-e> (it even works if you have 4 couples that stick together)
13:59:01 <int-e> And that (4 couples that always stick together) corresponds to dividing K_4 into 3 perfect matchings, which is something I've done before.
14:00:58 <mroman> now the question is whether it always requires 3 :)
14:01:02 <mroman> or whether it scales with more people
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14:04:22 <int-e> So the same construction works if you have 4n people and rooms of capacity 2n.
14:08:19 <mroman> do you have some strategy to pick the groups?
14:09:21 <int-e> It reduces to the case of 4 people; rather than couples, pick groups of size n that stick together.
14:09:22 <mroman> (as in something that helps towards an algorithm :D)
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14:41:40 <int-e> For 4n+2 people and room size 2n+1 you need 4 days. Fun.
14:51:33 <int-e> Start with 2n people; label them by the rooms (A or B, of capacity n) they stayed in. After two days, there are 4 labels, AA, AB, BA, BB; simple counting shows that the same number of poeple have labels AA and BB; the same is true for labels AB and BA. So you can make n disjoint pairs of people who have not been together in a room yet (pairing AA with BB, and AB with BA). If n is odd, then one...
14:51:39 <int-e> ...pair is split on the 3rd day, which means a 4th day is required.
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15:01:26 <int-e> And if there are 2 people, they'll never meet at all.
15:01:42 <int-e> I think that about covers it all.
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18:18:16 <mroman> so our govnt has expressed desire to use tracking apps to track citizens
18:18:26 <mroman> I mean... on one hand that's probably a great idea for this situation
18:18:32 <mroman> on the other hand... erm...
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18:25:55 <mroman> also one roll of toiletpaper for a single person usually easily lasts one week.
18:26:22 <mroman> so a 12pack lasts you like 3 months. If one buys 3-4 packs then you have toilet paper for a year.
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18:29:18 <mroman> on the other one box of pasta 400g is at most 1600kcal (as 1g of carb is 4kcal and this assumes pasta is 100% carb which it isn't) which will last you exactly one day at most.
18:30:55 <kritixilithos> there was a nice discussion on hn recently about bidets https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22618253
18:34:48 <kmc> yeah, i wonder how many "emergency powers" will be granted and never revoked
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18:41:20 <mroman> well... full confinement is a tricky thing. I mean it's probably less of a tricky thing if you have a house or an apparment with a balcony and things..
18:41:54 <mroman> currently we have a prohibition on gatherings of more than 5 people
18:42:25 <mroman> I guess banning gatherings entirely is on the table but even that isn't as harsh as full confinement.
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18:43:33 <mroman> but I assume currently the government is thinking that it isn't stoppable anymore and a lot of people will get it so there's no point in full confinement
18:43:38 <mroman> and they want to keep the economy running
18:44:21 <mroman> I don't see how tracking would be a reasonable measure for this strategy.
18:44:39 <mroman> Currently you still have to go to work potentially using public transport.
18:45:16 <mroman> so essentially one thing you could do is to close businesses for 14 days once a worker is ill
18:45:22 <mroman> you don't need tracking for that.
18:45:39 <mroman> and if you have tracking you'd have to do this as well
18:45:57 <mroman> (because obviously you had contact with your coworkers)
18:47:09 <mroman> kmc: depends. I guess legally speaking they are automatically revoked once the government ends the "emergency state"
18:47:36 <mroman> I'm guessing that laws based on emergency powers are only valid during the emergency state.
18:48:25 <mroman> so the legislative branch of the government would have to uphold those laws.
18:48:36 <mroman> (the ones made by the executive branch based on emergency powers)
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18:49:04 <mroman> but in essence in my country this means that the people have to uphold them
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18:49:24 <mroman> parliament can't really make laws without our approval.
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18:51:09 <mroman> although technically it works this way: parliament makes a new law... you can call for a vote but I think until the vote is done the law is actually in place
18:52:04 <kmc> governments tend to keep 'emergency states' going as long as they can
18:53:06 <kmc> it will be decades until we reach the point where there are no COVID-19 cases anywhere on Earth, if it ever happens (doubtful)
18:53:21 <kmc> so they can claim that the emergency is ongoing basically as long as they like
18:53:28 <kmc> and that it could flare back into pandemic status at any point
18:53:31 <kmc> which is kind of true
18:53:47 <mroman> maybe but I mean... law and politics are always... "soft". It's never "formal".
18:54:01 <mroman> I mean.. the government can use emergency powers in emergencies
18:54:10 <mroman> but I don't think it is defined what exactly is an emergency
18:54:31 <mroman> except you know like "natural disaster, public health crisis" but it doesn't define at what point something is a natural disaster worth of an emergency
18:55:11 <mroman> that's the fascinating thing. Politics requires cooperation from the people. The government can say whatever they want as long as the people don't accept it...
18:55:44 <kmc> that's complicated
18:55:50 <mroman> see here. The top governments have issued emergency laws which local goverments decided to overwrite (which is something that is legally not possible)
18:56:03 <mroman> the government issued a declaration that this is not legal but the local goverment said "meh"
18:56:05 <kmc> you can get away with things the majority don't like if you keep it secret, or if you misinform them
18:56:07 <mroman> I mean... what you gonna do.
18:56:15 <kmc> or if push comes to shove and the military and police are on board
18:56:18 <mroman> march in with the army?
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18:56:37 <mroman> but you can only do that if the people think this is worth marching into that one little state
18:57:40 <mroman> but yeah I hope it doesn't come to tracking.
18:58:43 <mroman> there's always some tension between parts of the country that speak different languages anyway.
18:59:39 <mroman> one part is too small to ever have a representative in government (or maybe they do now as a first I haven't really kept up with this)
19:00:17 <mroman> but generally you don't care about what happens in parts that don't speak your language
19:00:22 <mroman> language is a powerful barrier.
19:01:56 <mroman> but yeh this is going to be fun because for organizations on national level those local laws are illegal thus you wouldn't be able to apply for some unemployed insurances
19:02:19 <mroman> because the closing of your business wasn't legal on a national level even though it was mandatory due to local laws.
19:02:38 <mroman> That's also interesting. If you have a local law X and a national law Y that conflict each other... which one do you have to follow?
19:03:16 <mroman> courts are usually local so if you break a local law you'll be put in front of the local court I guess which will find you guilty
19:03:37 <mroman> then you'd have to take it further to the national court which would then presumably overrule that guilty sentence.
19:04:26 <mroman> so I guess you don't have to follow it but you will be convicted by the 1st instance and then you have to appeal to 2nd instance and you're good. Messy but works.
19:04:27 <zzo38> I think that most people should not go to work during this time (except doctors).
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19:05:05 <mroman> zzo38: yeah but this is only feasible if you can realistically erradicate the virus within a reasonable time frame?
19:05:06 <zzo38> (O, and also the fire fighting, too, if it becomes necessary.)
19:05:31 <mroman> otherwise you're just locking people up until every last case is gone which may take years?
19:06:15 <mroman> also this approach doesn't work long term. You need production for medical supplies and foods.
19:06:28 <mroman> And you need production for packaging for foods
19:06:33 <mroman> and you need transport of foods
19:06:44 <mroman> so you also need production and maintenance of for transport of food
19:06:54 <mroman> and medical supplies too
19:07:21 <mroman> it's probably really tricky to decide what you're going to shut down and what not
19:07:52 <mroman> you can shut down like can producers for now and use the cans they have in stock
19:07:55 <mroman> but how long will that last?
19:08:13 <mroman> you'd have to be aware of the entire supply chain
19:08:29 <mroman> it's much easier to just shut down clearly non-essential stuff
19:08:38 <zzo38> Some people can make their own food and growing stuff in their own garden too, I suppose.
19:08:41 <mroman> like hair stylist, make-up artists
19:09:16 <mroman> I mean currently you can only sell food in my country
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19:09:33 <mroman> you can buy everything online
19:10:13 <mroman> I suppose one feasible approach is to close food stores as well and have delivery people in protective gear that deliver food to people's home
19:10:16 <zzo38> People should be advised to stay home and the law should ensure that if their employer requires them to work then the employer will be arrested (once you get the opportunity to arrest them).
19:10:20 <mroman> that's one way to reduce a lot of contacts.
19:11:52 <mroman> I'd agree that you certainly can close most businesses for a time limited period.
19:13:18 <mroman> I just hope that we will learn from this crisis and that we as a society improve and move away from "consumer society"
19:20:15 <kmc> what does that mean exactly
19:20:20 <kmc> people have enjoyed consuming things since the dawn of time
19:30:59 <mroman> yeah it's a term translated from "Konsumgesellschaft"
19:31:35 <mroman> it means being overly materialistic, put values into objects, desire luxury things, express status through objects, always wanting new things even though there's no functional need
19:31:48 <mroman> buying things that aren't necessary only to throw them away soon without having had a real need for them
19:32:11 <mroman> examples would be buying things that are currently hyped because they are hyped but you actually don't need them
19:32:59 <mroman> the opposite I guess would be minimalism. You reduce your lifestyle to what is necessary to you and buy things only on a strict need basis, you don't express your status through expensive objects
19:33:14 <mroman> and you try to consume as little as possible, you value nature and people
19:33:18 <mroman> that's what's generally understood.
19:37:51 <zzo38> Yes, you should reduce "consumer society"
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19:54:58 <kmc> but minimalism has become its own form of middle class status signalling
19:55:04 <kmc> https://vruba.tumblr.com/post/45256059128/wealth-risk-and-stuff
20:00:22 <kmc> "value nature and people" can mean "spend tons of money on unnecessary travel" and your instagram photos from exotic places become as much an expensive status good as a luxury car or whatever
20:00:43 <kmc> and preaching the virtues of minimalism can tread close to austerity politics
20:00:57 <mroman> well granted... going backpacking is something you can only do if you're rich
20:00:57 <kmc> like every so often conservatives in the USA get outraged that you can buy steak and lobster on food stamps
20:01:03 <kmc> cause the poor should eat only gruel and plain toast
20:01:12 <kmc> never mind that it's a fixed allocation per month regardless
20:01:36 <kmc> mroman: right, rich in the sense of money or rich in the sense of few obligations and a safety net
20:01:42 <kmc> either way
20:01:52 <kmc> that's the difference between backpackers and homeless people
20:02:11 <kmc> I've been technically homeless for months, but I knew that I had friends to stay with and a high paying job awaiting me after x months so it's not really the same
20:03:07 <kmc> anyway i don't disagree with you exactly
20:03:22 <kmc> it's just a kind of complicated thing
20:03:36 <mroman> yeh I've been "homeless" for a while too but not "homeless" as in "living on the streets"
20:04:12 <mroman> no I mean you certainly can have minimalism when you're poor but yeah you'll have to bulk buy food for sure
20:04:54 <mroman> also usually minimalist might have a safety net in the sense of "I can throw this away... should I ever need this in a year or two I can just re-buy it"
20:05:04 <mroman> which you can't do when poor
20:05:17 <mroman> like "I only want 1 pair of sneakers so I'll give these away"
20:05:31 <mroman> your sneakers break and you don't have a spare pair so you have to buy a new one as well
20:05:35 <mroman> you don't do that when poor
20:05:52 <kmc> yeah, the stereotype of poor people having a bunch of junked cars and washing machines on their lawn
20:05:56 <kmc> it's easy to look down on it as trashy
20:06:14 <kmc> but maybe they can't afford to throw them out because they might need them for parts
20:06:21 <kmc> or are slowly acquiring the parts to get them working again
20:06:24 <zzo38> Or, can you make your own shoes and stuff?
20:06:29 <kmc> and can't just toss the whole thing and buy a brand new shiny samsung washing machine
20:06:44 <mroman> I'm sitting here not having to wash my own clothes
20:06:47 <mroman> so much for being rich.
20:07:00 <mroman> but that's because I live in a hotel.
20:07:11 <mroman> I don't even have a washing machine
20:07:23 <zzo38> Other thing to do is to wash the clothes less often if they aren't so dirty.
20:07:49 <kmc> personally I'm far from minimalist, I own a lot of stuff, much of it is tools and supplies for my various activities (electronics, ham radio, mushroom growing) and ditto for my wife and her hobbies
20:07:58 <kmc> i think that's a good case for owning stuff
20:08:08 <kmc> i still have too much and it's hard to find what i need when i need it, which is a problem
20:08:23 <mroman> I own a lot of stuff. I used to have rented three places equipped with stuff...
20:09:14 <mroman> good think my income could support my shenanigans due to poor mental health...
20:10:52 <mroman> yeah also there are videos of people having like 3-4 clothes
20:11:01 <mroman> You wouldn't make it in my country
20:11:09 <mroman> and lucky you you have an office job
20:12:05 <mroman> If you live in a place where you don't need winter/summer clothes then fuck yeah I could go by with two pair of jeans, two t-shirts and stuff.
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20:27:21 <zzo38> Love of money is the root of all evil.
20:34:44 <mroman> well.. practically speaking there are things that force you to spend more money than necessary
20:34:56 <mroman> you could buy some land for 10k build a house for 20k and you'd be set at 30k
20:35:05 <mroman> which is about 3 years worth of rent otherwise
20:35:19 <mroman> like 2years if you don't have a cheap appartment
20:35:45 <mroman> the reason why you can't do that is because a.) you'd be stationary then b.) very few people sell <200m^2 pieces of land
20:36:22 <mroman> people buying land buy large pieces so sellers have no incentive to actually divide their land into smaller parcels to sell
20:37:05 <mroman> so that's one thing that forces you to pay more money than necessary. If you think about it 1.2k per month for an appartment is way too much
20:37:15 <mroman> I wonder why rents are so expensive.
20:37:29 <mroman> because they rent these since the 1965
20:38:03 <mroman> so that appartment would have had to cost about 800k
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22:05:39 <zzo38> One feature of Pokemon Card GB2 that I don't like is that if you play Energy Search and you have any energy cards in your draw pile you are required to take one. (I don't know what would be the proper rule for this, but if it is like Magic: the Gathering, you would not be required to take one, although you would still be required in the case of Computer Search.)
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22:19:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: M:tG's is the good rule. the rationale is that it would be inconvenient to prove to the opponent that you have no card matching the criteria in your deck, since for that, the opponent or a judge would have to look at every card in your deck (at least the first time that happens)
22:20:18 <zzo38> Yes, I agree. I don't know if Pokemon card is using a different rule, though.
22:23:37 <zzo38> Also, level 32 Marowak's "Wail" attack can't be used if both benches are full (even though, if only one bench is full, both player's cards are still shuffled anyways).
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