2020-03-01:

00:02:28 <zzo38> Do you know how a astrolabe is working? I do not actually have a astrolabe, so I have never actually used it.
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00:06:52 <arseniiv> zzo38: IIRC in a mechanical one there are geniously arranged cogs that make each planet go at the correct pace, and for moons it should be analogous but with even more magic to deliver the rotation to where the moon’s planet is at the moment. Though I think these times there would be electric ones which should be way easier to control
00:08:16 <arseniiv> maybe you asked about more detailed view, unfortunately I may only guess there
00:09:24 <arseniiv> oops an astrolabe is not what I thought, sorry
00:10:01 <int-e> . o O ( `learn The password of the month is vacant. )
00:10:18 <zzo38> I know there is a plate specific to the latitude, but I thought some functions require it and some don't.
00:11:59 <arseniiv> `password
00:12:00 <HackEso> uztohqhcddcqkua
00:12:07 <arseniiv> `? password
00:12:09 <HackEso> The password of the month is leapfrogging rats.
00:12:43 <int-e> The frog has croaked.
00:13:42 <int-e> Do rats carry SARS-CoV-2? (The naming of this thing is terrible.)
00:14:56 <arseniiv> `learn The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with
00:14:59 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with
00:15:22 <arseniiv> and I tried not to
00:15:43 <int-e> (The diseaese is Covid-19, which is not descriptive at all ("corona virus desease 2019"). The virus has "SARS" in it which actually names the symptoms, "severe acute respiratory syndrome".)
00:15:45 <arseniiv> I hoped I will be sleeping at the time!
00:16:54 <int-e> arseniiv: Nice use of tenses.
00:17:18 <int-e> (I think grammar dictates "would" instead of "will" there.)
00:17:44 <int-e> . o O ( Will is out of the woods now. )
00:18:23 <arseniiv> <int-e> (I think grammar dictates "would" instead of "will" there.) => yeah I’m too, but I wrote before I realized that
00:19:18 <int-e> arseniiv: I read it as an artistic impression of how time becomes extremely fluid when one is tired.
00:19:35 <int-e> Especially when you start nodding off :)
00:19:40 <arseniiv> (BTW about puns: why did GHC people named an extension RecordPuns?)
00:20:03 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, that’s nice!
00:20:14 <arseniiv> though I’m not sure if I’m that tired yet
00:20:37 <int-e> I really try hard to be in bed before that point, and usually sleeping.
00:20:58 <int-e> (Though sometimes I read in bed and do notice starting the same paragraph over and over again.)
00:21:00 <arseniiv> (but that won’t do at all to sleep so late before Sunday)
00:22:05 <int-e> As for record puns... it's using the same word (identifier) for a different meaning.
00:22:11 <int-e> So it is a kind of pun.
00:23:05 <arseniiv> I have a habit reading in bed when I’m ill. I take books from the bookcase and lay them somewhere near to pick from at those unhappy days, and read when I’m not too exhausted
00:23:53 <int-e> I'm confused though, is this different from RecordWildCards ?
00:24:14 <arseniiv> various tales usually
00:24:25 <arseniiv> yeah it should be a different thing, let me see…
00:24:39 <arseniiv> ah I seem to remember it anyway
00:24:59 <int-e> Speaking of puns, I would rename "BlockArguments" to "NoBikeshedding".
00:25:06 <arseniiv> wildcards enable `Constructor {}` as a pattern
00:25:45 <int-e> Oh, it's "NamedFieldPuns" but the documentation says "record puns". https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.8.1/docs/html/users_guide/glasgow_exts.html#extension-NamedFieldPuns
00:26:13 <int-e> So it's a precursor of the RecordWildcards.
00:26:18 <arseniiv> were BlockArguments added to no more bikeshed about what the precedence of blocks should be?
00:26:23 <int-e> The explanation is still the same though.
00:26:51 <int-e> In  f (C {a}) = a,  a is both a field selector name and a bound value.
00:27:40 <int-e> So this is analogous to using the same word with two meanings in a natural language.
00:28:35 <arseniiv> I should have a pun in Puntree^W^W^W^W^W^W^W
00:30:36 <arseniiv> (an extremely bad pun as a few would remember that one is named Punctree, not Puntree)
00:31:15 <int-e> I wasn't sure and didn't bother to check.
00:41:45 <int-e> arseniiv: I've just realized that your POTM is likely to make oerjan unhappy... because of the end of the sentenece
00:41:52 <int-e> .
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00:42:06 <int-e> That's the point.
01:57:35 <esowiki> [[Pointless.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70093 * Qpliu * (+2815) Created page with "Pointless is a [[Point-free programming|point-free]] variation on [[01_]].  A Pointless program is a Pointless expression, which is a function that takes a list of bits and re..."
01:57:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70094&oldid=70088 * Qpliu * (+17) /* P */
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04:48:32 <oerjan> @messages-told
04:48:33 <lambdabot> int-e said 1d 16h 34m 4s ago: I may have been wrong about the Foglios but I was definitely right about Clippy.
04:49:09 <oerjan> well duh
04:50:42 <oerjan> (or did you not see my previous joke)
04:55:09 <oerjan> while lying in bed, i had this wild idea that maybe tentacled Clippy contains some ancient backdoor installed by whoever became the dronuri, and so _would_ be helpful if ennesby asked em.
05:13:09 <zzo38> I think GHC should be fixed so that "data instance" is allowed where "type instance" is expected (but not vice-versa).
05:13:49 <zzo38> (And the same thing for associated type families.)
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07:22:51 <int-e> oerjan: No I had not seen it. I was asleep at the time by the looks of it.
07:24:43 <int-e> I don't log-read, most of the time.
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07:35:06 <int-e> oerjan: doing your job: <oerjan> shocking
07:35:29 <int-e> oerjan: which, incidentally, you have not yet said this year.
07:36:29 <int-e> (It's March and *nobody* has used "shocking" this year. SHOCKING!)
07:36:51 <int-e> (But I'm making up for it NOW.)
07:40:50 <int-e> "shocking" statistics over the years (lines containing the word): 2003:0 / 2004:0 / 2005:2 / 2006:3 / 2007:5 / 2008:16 / 2009:28 / 2010:45 / 2011:98 / 2012:86 / 2013:89 / 2014:50 / 2015:37 / 2016:111 / 2017:56 / 2018:10 / 2019:22 / 2020:3
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07:41:16 <int-e> So I guess 2016 was peak shocking.
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07:57:05 <oerjan> ShOcKiNg
07:59:47 <int-e> I did use grep -i :)
08:00:27 <int-e> (Phew, lucky me. There were no Unicode shenenigans.)
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08:21:30 <oerjan> . o O ( why would i be unhappy about the password )
08:22:21 <oerjan> not using a period at the end is traditional
08:22:47 <int-e> because it's missing a point. and potentially a word, that's left up to interpretation.
08:23:13 <int-e> I was projecting, OKAY?
08:26:59 <int-e> `learn An ambitagonist gets along/gets into trouble with both antagonists and protagonists.
08:27:02 <HackEso> Learned 'ambitagonist': An ambitagonist gets along/gets into trouble with both antagonists and protagonists.
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08:32:55 <int-e> Oh dang, another comic transitioning from the binging phase to the waiting phase. I hate when that happens.
08:36:21 <oerjan> fiendish
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08:58:46 <Taneb> Groethendieck universes
08:59:20 <Taneb> Given a universe U, can we always define a universe V to be the smallest universe such that U is a set in V?
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09:03:16 <Taneb> Oh, apparently that gets taken as an axiom
09:05:47 <int-e> tfw a tiny tweak to your program speeds it up by two orders of magnitude.
09:06:22 <Taneb> Commenting out the sleep calls?
09:06:26 <Taneb> ;)
09:07:51 <int-e> No, just realizing I do not need to enumerate *all* solutions while looking to bound their size.
09:08:11 <Taneb> If you think it might be interesting I would like to here what the change was
09:08:49 <Taneb> :)
09:08:59 <Taneb> That would speed it up a lot
09:10:33 <int-e> Well, this is branch & bound, and I'm already within one of the actual maximal count. So previously I enumerated all solutions of that size, until I found a larger one, and then enumerated all solutions of that size as well. Now I start trying to find *larger* solutions and stop at one.
09:10:49 <int-e> This happened because I *also* need to enumerate solutions exhaustively later on.
09:11:30 <int-e> And obviously(?) I use the same code for that.
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10:10:43 <int-e> Taneb: Obviously I changed the algorithm. "tweak" referred to the amound of code... something like 5 lines (introduce a bool variable, check it in one or two places)
10:19:27 <oerjan> `? algorithm
10:19:29 <HackEso> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
10:20:00 <int-e> Hmm, a mound of code?
10:21:25 <oerjan> wat
10:21:53 <int-e> oerjan: I saw that I made a typo.
10:23:00 <oerjan> oh
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16:10:14 <tromp> trying o define an efficient equality for church numerals....
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17:18:09 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70095&oldid=70085 * Palaiologos * (+408) 
17:18:26 <kspalaiologos> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Asm2bf#Automated_calls
17:18:29 <kspalaiologos> that's amazing actually
17:18:45 <kspalaiologos> using cpp as my preprocessor has been great decision so far
17:25:11 <zzo38> I think that if you use the C preprocessor, then tokens should also be in the C format (such as using // or /* ... */ for comments, instead of other formats, and using 'x' for a single character literal); otherwise some things might get confused
17:26:55 <kspalaiologos> it works so far
17:27:05 <kspalaiologos> switching from C preprocessor will eventually happen
17:27:17 <kspalaiologos> but yeah I can see the problems
17:27:45 <kspalaiologos> the fact C preprocessor refuses to concat two non-tokens seems quite constraining
17:27:52 <kspalaiologos> I think I'll employ lua to do my preprocessing
17:28:40 <zzo38> Yes, that might work better
17:28:48 <b_jonas> `? password
17:28:50 <HackEso> The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with
17:34:57 <APic> 1234
18:12:08 <b_jonas> int-e: "another comic transitioning from the binging phase to the waiting phase" => which comic?
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18:51:24 <int-e> b_jonas: https://www.monster-lands.com/ which I started reading a few days ago.
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18:58:05 <int-e> b_jonas: but other than that it's just one of many webcomics out there
19:04:18 <int-e> Hmm, maybe 20x20 board size is where my current approach for http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/March2020.html finally breaks down.
19:04:37 <int-e> (In the sense that it takes a long, long time to find something.)
19:05:04 <int-e> 19x19 finished in an hour; 20x20 is approaching 10 hours.
19:05:51 <int-e> (all sequential... some potential for parallelization if I'd care enough)
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19:13:33 <kspalaiologos> done
19:13:36 <kspalaiologos> I switched to Lua
19:14:09 <b_jonas> that was quick
19:22:18 <kspalaiologos> https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/tree/master/bfpp
19:22:39 <kspalaiologos> essentially I downloaded lua 5.1 source code, used lua2c to get the tiny preprocessor (~100 sloc) converted
19:22:48 <kspalaiologos> then I build it all and volia
19:23:06 <kspalaiologos> I had to yank off two unit tests for the old preprocessing mechanism, so I'm running really low on them lol, gonna write some more tomorrow
19:23:27 <kspalaiologos> the wiki article and documentation is now severely outdated so I'll have to eventually tackle on that
19:23:49 <kspalaiologos> I've also moved the permanent generation by two cells, so there are two additional registers available to the programmer
19:24:48 <kspalaiologos> and I've accidentally rm -rf'd my working directory, so I had to essentially do this thing twice lol
19:26:35 <b_jonas> fungot, which one do you prefer, practical or fashionable?
19:26:35 <fungot> b_jonas: i use that in my google article. :p
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20:03:25 <fizzie> fungot: What's your "Google article" exactly? 
20:03:25 <fungot> fizzie: we think in befunge when coding it yourself, or steal, say,
20:03:38 <fizzie> IDGI
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20:05:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think he means an article published on a blog hosted by google blogger
20:05:59 <b_jonas> fungot, according to the legend, what objects did Galileo drop from the leaning tower of Pisa to prove Aristoteles wrong?
20:05:59 <fungot> b_jonas: give me the applet already :d
20:06:11 <b_jonas> an apple? yes, that might have worked
20:06:36 <arseniiv> <fungot> fizzie: we think in befunge => that’s certainly close to the truth
20:06:36 <fungot> arseniiv: i like the way optbot drags up old topics, it should sound like ' awak, awak, fnord! and fnord!) fnord!
20:08:16 <arseniiv> . o O ( an applet is a small chunk chipped of Apple by rival corporations )
20:08:33 <arseniiv> fungot: fnord?
20:08:34 <fungot> arseniiv: i would say rather that there has been some discussion about this in the def-bf code
20:08:59 <arseniiv> now they’re probably verbatimize again
20:40:41 <zzo38> Can a Tor hidden service be set up which uses protocols other than HTTP(S)?
20:42:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think Tor can care about that high level layer of the protocol
20:43:09 <b_jonas> it could care about it going over tcp
21:28:30 <kmc> zzo38: yes, for example Freenode runs an IRCd on a Tor hidden service
21:28:35 <kmc> https://freenode.net/kb/answer/chat#accessing-freenode-via-tor
21:29:23 <kmc> I believe you can't do UDP, but anything TCP-based should work
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21:49:32 <tromp> church equality down to 74 bits...
21:51:14 <b_jonas> kmc: oh yeah
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22:43:32 <tswett[m]> arseniiv: Oh yeah, I own some applets. 5 of them, to be precise.
22:43:47 <tswett[m]> They were collectively worth about $1,700 at close on Friday.
22:44:10 <arseniiv> tswett[m]: :D
22:45:05 <b_jonas> which is funny because an apple is usually worth less than a dollar
22:55:23 <int-e> YAY: user    715m21.159s
22:56:55 <int-e> (meaning the 20x20 search for March's Ponder This did actually finish)
23:00:26 <b_jonas> int-e: is the line right above that "Segmentation fault" because it ran out of memory?

2020-03-02:

00:02:54 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
00:04:30 <int-e> Oh dang it.
00:09:51 <int-e> Okay, let's do this properly this time.
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00:43:05 <esowiki> [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70096&oldid=70029 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) /* Program import */
00:50:01 <esowiki> [[Orca]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70097&oldid=70081 * Neauoire * (+177) 
01:01:06 <int-e> (Dang it: I missed a corner case in my Ponder This approach.)
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01:28:29 <int-e> And it was so typical... the mistakes are never in the tricky part of the code, but in the places you consider obvious and easy :-/
01:36:57 <int-e> fungot: anything to lighten the mood?
01:36:57 <fungot> int-e: what really? i thought eval would bork when asked to input a character, or it's only in pity.
01:40:06 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70098&oldid=70092 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+410) /* Set the accumulator to 0 */ new extension. TC
01:40:25 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70099&oldid=70098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* New commands */
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04:03:39 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70100&oldid=70089 * Hakerh400 * (-5) 
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05:23:41 <zzo38> Apparently, someone used to sign their Usenet posts with a line about "evil umpire", but this was too early to be archived.
05:26:03 <zzo38> Also, I should probably implement scoring in bystand. There seems to be a lot of spam posted through Google to news.software.readers. (Maybe that is why some Usenet users do not want to receive messages posted through Google.)
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05:35:43 <zzo38> (I do not wish to block all messages posted through Google, since some people who use Google have actual relevant stuff to write. However, I do not post using Google myself.)
06:17:42 <zzo38> Do you like Hollerith chording?
06:19:42 <kmc> zzo38: what is that?
06:20:54 <zzo38> It is my idea of how to enter text using a numeric keypad. There are other systems of entering text using a numeric keypad, and I think all of them are not very good.
06:21:49 <zzo38> Hollerith chording means if you push one button at a time then it makes numbers; if you push multiples at a time then it corresponds to multiple holes in one column of a computer card, and makes whatever letter that combination of holes represents.
06:22:44 <zzo38> (A separate button is needed for a space, although most systems using a numeric keypad already have a few other buttons anyways.)
06:23:47 <zzo38> What do you think is the best system for text entry using a numeric keypad?
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07:35:25 <TellsTogo> zzo38 Dotsies https://dotsies.org/
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08:11:02 <Cale> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-report/
08:11:04 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-report/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale kmc
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09:36:36 <cpressey> Good morning. If a conventional OS has a Command-Line Interface (CLI) then it stands to reason that a Befunge-based OS would have a Command-Plane Interface (CPI).
09:37:35 <Taneb> Naturally
09:40:30 <wib_jonas> cpressey: I'm not sure about that. a Befunge-based OS might use Befunge as a platform to run user-space programs, or for the kernel, neither implies that the shell has to be befunge too. 
09:41:06 <wib_jonas> There are systems that run mostly machine code programs with system calls, but have a unix sh or dos shell or BASIC or Forth command line interface
09:41:41 <wib_jonas> On the other hand, some (but not all) BASIC-based interfaces are already command planes, in that they let you edit anywhere on a screen sized buffer of inputs and let you run any line there
09:42:38 <wib_jonas> By all rights that stupid system should be extinct, but it lives on in worksheet interfaces like that of Mathematica or SAGE, and the immediates window of VBA.
09:46:08 <wib_jonas> You could have a befunge command-plane shell on an OS that isn't based on befunge though, and befunge is particulary usable for this in fact,
09:46:43 <wib_jonas> because befunge already takes the program from the same command plane to where it can read data inputs and write outputs, just like how those BASIC shells work.
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11:57:23 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, I tried to match your 74 bit equality test but I'm stuck at 79 for now. But I have a 73 bit *dis*equality test now.
11:57:55 <tromp> mine is 73 bit now
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11:58:31 <tromp> hint: it's just using scott_succ and scott_pred
11:59:01 <FireFly> is this the binary format of LC?
11:59:15 <tromp> a slightly tweaked scott_pred actually
11:59:27 <FireFly> or what's the bitcount for?
11:59:31 <int-e> tromp: But I also have 58 bit less than and less than or equal tests, and a 66 bit minimum.
11:59:39 <tromp> yes, size measured in blc encoding
12:02:13 <FireFly> ah right
12:08:04 <tromp> now embarking on a much more involved term looking for odd perfect numbers
12:13:12 <tromp> btw, modulo is <= 113 bits
12:13:49 <tromp> and div <= 126 bits
12:14:09 <b_jonas> tromp: could you look for Fermat primes 2**(2**k)+1 for 5<=k integer instead?
12:15:11 <tromp> that would be straightforward given our small primesieve
12:16:49 <tromp> will try later
12:17:39 <b_jonas> though I guess odd perfect numbers would be a more interesting goal
12:19:02 <tromp> so far, smallest conjecture testing program is 213 bit Laver table one
12:19:31 <tromp> goldbach sits at 267 bits
12:20:09 <int-e> div is <= 105 bits.
12:20:13 <tromp> i expect oddperfect to come in between those
12:20:25 <tromp> int-e: cool, something new!
12:20:42 <int-e> And \n m. n `div` (m+1) is even shorter.
12:25:21 <b_jonas> int-e: what representation of natural numbers are you using here for those bit counts?
12:27:03 <int-e> Church
12:27:43 <b_jonas> the original one, which encodes 4 as (\x.\y.x(x(x(x y)))) ?
12:28:53 <int-e> yes, that one
12:29:10 <cpressey> The orthodox Church encoding.
12:29:33 <b_jonas> it's confusing that that's called Church encoding
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12:29:43 <b_jonas> but that's not easy to fix it now
12:31:00 <FireFly> what other encoding is referred to that way?
12:31:15 <FireFly> That's the only one I know of under that name
12:31:37 <int-e> tromp: let's make that 95
12:31:52 <int-e> (and 88 for n/(m+1))
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12:35:56 <b_jonas> FireFly: there's an encoding for algebraic types, where if you have a type with say three constructors A, B, C, then you encode a value A as (\a\b\c.a), the value (B x y) as (\a\b\c.bxy), and the value (C z) as (\a\b\c.cz)
12:36:30 <b_jonas> of which a special case is encoding False as (\f\t.f) and True as (\f\t.t)
12:36:38 <tromp> that's called the Scott encoding?
12:37:04 <b_jonas> is it? I think someone called it Church something, at least in the case of non-recursive data types
12:37:09 <b_jonas> let me look up the chat log
12:38:15 <b_jonas> hmm no, I'm probably just confused 
12:38:19 <b_jonas> I don't know how all these encodings work
12:39:42 <FireFly> Ah, I guess the confusion might be due to there being a common subset of them?
12:40:12 <FireFly> So the Church booleans end up the same as the Scott encoding for a boolean type
12:40:14 <int-e> s/95/91/ (and 84 for n/(m+1)), hmm. But I think this may be it. mod will be worse.
12:41:30 <tromp> are you using any lists?
12:41:37 <int-e> no
12:41:49 <tromp> mine are all list based:(
12:43:34 <int-e> I'm thinking of this as coroutines for the time being.
12:43:58 <tromp> that's way more awesome than lists
12:45:39 <int-e> trying the same with mod now, hmm. doesn't terminate... what did I do wrong :)
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12:48:36 <b_jonas> int-e: try not to divide by zero
12:51:12 <int-e> b_jonas: that wasn't the issue ;)
13:01:48 <tromp> trust int-e to try with nonzero denominators:)
13:02:38 <tromp> did you also use coroutines for eq?
13:03:18 <int-e> yes.
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13:19:20 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70101&oldid=70099 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Multi-cell extension (Turing-complete) */
13:22:18 <tromp> int-e: eq/mod/div added to AIT repo. feel free to make improvements
13:22:37 <int-e> Hmm, mod with this approach seems to come out at 115 bits.
13:23:16 <int-e> Which is okay I suppose. :P
13:24:20 <tromp> very competitive with mine!
13:24:31 <tromp> your div is way better though
13:25:21 <int-e> yeah it's 90 bits now :)
13:27:14 <tromp> would that be the first example of coroutines in the repo?
13:29:27 <int-e> pushed the div, so feel free to argue whether this is using coroutines or not.
13:33:10 <int-e> and mod is now 107 bits
13:34:02 <int-e> (Observation: n carries enough "recursive power" to avoid the full fixed point construction)
13:35:59 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70102&oldid=70101 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+160) 
13:36:18 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70103&oldid=70102 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Commands */
13:39:47 <kritixilithos> tromp: where is this AIT repo?
13:40:17 <tromp> https://github.com/tromp/AIT
13:40:59 <tromp> int-e: good point about using n as poor man's Y 
13:41:38 <kritixilithos> so you're golfing functions in binary lambda calculus?
13:43:20 <kritixilithos> oh you're this guy https://tromp.github.io/cl/cl.html
13:44:52 <tromp> yep, that guy:)
13:45:17 <tromp> or rather, this guy https://github.com/tromp/
13:45:50 <tromp> int-e: that change also makes it so that mod n 0 no longer diverges:)
13:46:27 <tromp> now, we get mod n 0 = 1
13:46:43 <int-e> . o O ( very useful )
13:48:31 <tromp> it's really cool that you can define mod 0 m as m false, using only 2 bits for the inner argument
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13:50:48 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70104&oldid=70103 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Commands */
13:51:05 <int-e> so basically what "kills" the coroutine approach for mod is that the counter isn't monotonic, so I need to deal with an extra argument... doing that in three places adds up to 20-ish bits.
13:51:19 <int-e> (25)
13:53:01 <cpressey> dare I ask why the counter isn't monotonic
13:53:18 <tromp> mod m m < mod (m-1) m
13:53:18 <int-e> because it has to be reset when it reaches the modulus.
13:53:33 <cpressey> ah. hm. ok.
13:54:02 <int-e> in contrast to 'div', which is just, pass, pass, pass, bump counter, pass, pass...
13:55:17 <Taneb> Can you use mod x y = x - div x y to get any gain?
13:55:31 <Taneb> *x - y * div x y
13:55:44 <int-e> Taneb: No, I can't do - and * in 25 bits.
13:55:52 <Taneb> Ah :(
13:56:25 <int-e> (- is the worse of the two... 56 bits is the best I have for that)
13:57:08 <int-e> But even \m\n. \f\x. m f (n f x) is already 33 bits.
13:57:50 <int-e> err. what am I doing?
13:57:54 <int-e> that's addition.
13:58:39 <int-e> Multiplication *is* cheap, \m\n. \f. m (n f) = 19 bits. (These numbers change by about 10 when the thing is inlined.)
14:00:18 <tromp> i sometimes ponder if i should rename binary lambda calculus to "bitwise"
14:00:37 <tromp> but it would make googling way harder:(
14:00:59 <int-e> meh it's the "LC" part that's alluring to me
14:01:28 <tromp> yes, i like to mention that too. it's just quite a mouthful
14:02:22 <tromp> normally, programming languages names are single words
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14:03:12 <fizzie> Just smoosh those words together, into "Bilaca" or something, Fortran-style.
14:03:45 <fizzie> (Or Bilamcal.)
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14:57:06 <int-e> . o O ( BottLeneCk )
15:02:09 <tromp> BLaCK
15:02:25 <tromp> I mean BLaCk
15:04:24 <tromp> ot in spanish BLanCa
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15:21:39 <tromp> regarding this month's Ponder This: the nice regular spacing of 20% unoccupied board squares is ruled out. so it's something irregular with higher unoccupied density towards the borders
15:23:11 <tromp> in particular, there can be no unoccupied square surrounded regularly by 4 others at knight's move distance
15:23:37 <arseniiv> tromp: you could portmanteau BLaCk and BLanCa into BLanCk which may be more googlable if not many people misspell “blank” (or write “blanck” intentionally)
15:23:42 <tromp> as its 4 directly adjacent squares would all need to be different
15:24:45 <arseniiv> (or for a z-grade linguistic pun, BLãCk)
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16:09:29 <int-e> tromp: We should probably discuss this in April :P
16:10:39 <int-e> (I know I talked about this a lot but I tried to keep it vague and avoid spoilers.)
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16:30:41 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70105&oldid=70095 * Palaiologos * (+644) new bfpp (based on Lua); r5 and r6 added to the register model
16:33:37 <tromp> oh, thought you talked about the ladders and snakes one
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18:00:36 <esowiki> [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70106&oldid=70105 * Palaiologos * (-408) remove automated calls section
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19:18:54 <int-e> tromp: I also talked about that one previously
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19:24:57 <int-e> tromp: they tend to post these challenges a bit early (the March one was posted February 27th, and I discovered it on the 29th).
19:26:03 <int-e> They also tend to close them a bit late.
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19:32:43 <rain1> hi
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19:41:44 <tromp> i like that this one can be solved manually
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19:46:52 <int-e> I guess it's not inconceivable.
19:46:56 <int-e> :P
19:47:44 <int-e> (I didn't really try.)
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23:27:39 <MTGBusyBeaver> Hello, I have been working on doing the most possible damage in Magic the Gathering, without going infinite, and while we have gotten some big numbers, we would like to implement some sort of turing complete set of (forced) operations as the BusyBeaver function would grow even faster. 
23:29:44 <MTGBusyBeaver> MTG has already been proved Turing complete, however all of the known setups actually allow for the creation of nondeterministic Turing machines, which could loop for an arbitrary amount of time before halting.
23:30:07 <longname> That's pretty cool.
23:30:14 <longname> I wonder if YGO is turing complete.
23:31:30 <MTGBusyBeaver> We have been trying to get https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model to work but have run into a few problems
23:32:02 <b_jonas> welcome, MTGBusyBeaver
23:32:06 <MTGBusyBeaver> YGO has finite board-space right? so I doubt it,
23:32:59 <longname> You do have an infinite hand and there's quite a lot of non-HOPT self bouncing effects
23:33:26 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: yes, ais523 was trying to get a simulation of that to work, and I think he did get it to work eventually, just didn't make a clear enough documentation of the details of that construction
23:35:04 <MTGBusyBeaver> There is a working construction, it just also allows for nondeterminism as nothing forces the encoded waterfall program to never have two registers zero simultaniously
23:36:00 <MTGBusyBeaver> and we have no way for that to trigger the halt
23:36:51 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: sure, but you can choose the program
23:37:03 <b_jonas> so just choose a waterfall model program that never has two register zero simultaneously
23:37:19 <b_jonas> you can translate any program to twm that way
23:37:19 <int-e> b_jonas: that's not useful for the busy beaver function though
23:37:46 <int-e> hmm
23:37:53 <b_jonas> int-e: why not?
23:38:01 <b_jonas> take a busy beaver turing machine, translate it to TWM
23:38:03 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah we can't allow for even the opportunity for nonderterminism
23:38:22 <b_jonas> translation is rather inefficient because TWM is like that, but it works
23:38:23 <int-e> b_jonas: so you're saying, take a TC language, translate it to TWM in a special way, and then do BB on top of that?
23:38:36 <b_jonas> yes
23:38:47 <b_jonas> and then translate the TWM program to an M:tG game plan
23:39:21 <int-e> Makes sense, I just missed the first indirection.
23:39:30 <MTGBusyBeaver> But the MTG game plan with the same cards could make a nondeterministic TWM program and beat the BB bound
23:39:59 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: the game with the same cards could also just not enter any TWM loop, you might just never play the right combos 
23:40:07 <b_jonas> setting up the combo is nontrivial, it's easy to mess it up actually
23:40:09 <int-e> b_jonas: I imagined you'd filter TWM programs for those that are "good" in the sense that they never have two zero registers as they run.
23:40:10 <b_jonas> I don't see the problem
23:40:33 <b_jonas> int-e: you can't really "filter" them after the fact, that's uncomputable and at least as halt as telling if a turing machine halts
23:40:47 <int-e> b_jonas: hence my initial response (and objection)
23:41:11 <b_jonas> right
23:41:31 <MTGBusyBeaver> but we get to pick our draws and plays, we wont "mess up" the combo, and if there is a line that does more damage we will take it
23:42:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> and if that amount of damage is unbounded, the deck is disqualified.
23:42:19 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: sure, but nothing in the deck forces you to do that specific combo. if you can go off with the deck, you can just win instantly rather than try to set up a combo
23:42:23 <b_jonas> oh I see
23:43:12 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: but then the TWM indeterminacy doesn't matter either, you could also set up a TWM program that deals infinite damage, or just deal infinite damage without going through the hoops
23:44:05 <b_jonas> longname: infinite hand like https://www.xkcd.com/1099/ ?
23:44:18 <MTGBusyBeaver> The idea is that the busy beaver machine would incidentially output tokens that could only attack after the TM halts
23:46:18 <b_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/2275/ a Giant Spider? aaargh
23:47:23 <int-e> b_jonas: Have I complained already that covid-19 is a totally awful name? "corona virus disease 2019".
23:47:40 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, it should have a four-digit year name in there
23:48:03 <int-e> But the virus name got some actual symptoms, SARS-CoV-2.
23:48:26 <longname> Well.
23:48:37 <longname> You can only have 60 cards in your deck, max
23:48:44 <int-e> b_jonas: No, my complaint is about descriptiveness.
23:48:51 <longname> So I guess you could only have 60 cards in hand total.
23:49:27 <longname> Unless you took cards from your opponents hands too actually, so total 120
23:49:51 <int-e> "Standard decks must contain a minimum of sixty cards. There is no maximum deck size; however, one must be able to shuffle one's deck without assistance."
23:49:57 <int-e> has this changed?
23:50:22 <longname> I'm talkin' YGO, Beaver's talking MTG
23:50:29 <int-e> Oh.
23:52:04 <b_jonas> in M:tG, you can momentarily put tokens into your deck or your hand, though they disappear the next time state-based actions are processed, and in some crazy cases they actually matter in your deck and make it hard to figure out how to follow the rules
23:52:25 <int-e> b_jonas: "is just too catchy" -- is that a play on its virility?
23:53:11 <longname> Ah, hm. Then yeah I guess maybe YGO is impossible to make turing incomplete without some change in rules just 'cus of a lack of memory.
23:53:25 <longname> *impossible to make turing complete.
23:54:08 <b_jonas> longname: really? that's surprising
23:56:08 <longname> You can summon shitloads of tokens (actually infinitely in theory with some mayakura the destructor + utlimate offering + phantom skyblaster + gy looping shenanigans) but they can only appear on the field
23:57:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> The useful operations we have: 2xArcbond (when this creature takes damage it deals that much damage to each other creature) allow us to set up a 'clock' that locks us out of interaction once the TM has been put into motion until one of the targeted creatures dies, artificial evolution lets us change the creature types a card refers to, rotlung
23:57:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> reanimator (whenever a creature of type X dies create a 2/2 Y token) allows us to remake/change things Dralnu's Crusade (all X's are also Ys) lets us have things with multiple types.
23:58:34 <b_jonas> I mean, if it were impossible to make it Turing-complete because it lacks crazy building blocks like (Rotlung Reanimator or Xathrid Necromancer or Hungry Lynx) and Artificial Evolution
23:58:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> I'm thinking about trying some sort of cyclic tag system using Coat of arms (each creature gets +x+x for each creature that shares a type with it) but I dont think that is enough
23:58:55 <b_jonas> that wouldn't surprise me. but if you can actually prove that YGO is not TC because of lack of memory, that _would_ surprise me.
23:59:36 <b_jonas> it wouldn't surprise me for a newer game like Hearthstone that may be specifically designed to avoid such crazy combos, but Yu Gi Oh is old

2020-03-03:

00:00:17 <longname> Infinite loops like that are handled weirdly depending on who you ask. Techncially they're illegal, and playing a card that would start infinite loop is an illegal play (Pole Position comes to mind) 
00:00:53 <MTGBusyBeaver> YGO is probably not even as strong as regular expressions.
00:00:55 <b_jonas> longname: can you have an unlimited number of tokens on the battlefield at the same time?
00:01:16 <longname> Nope, you can have, at most 7 monsters total on the field.
00:01:42 <longname> and that's only under very specific circumstances (co-links)
00:01:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> Hearthstone is also very much limited in board/deck space so it would suffer the same limitations
00:01:45 <b_jonas> oh, so that's where Hearthstone got that rule from?
00:02:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> YGO is normally 5 right?
00:02:28 <longname> Yeah, 5 under normal circumstances
00:02:36 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: yes, Hearthstone is limited. but YGO is an older game.
00:02:40 <b_jonas> I see
00:03:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> so there is not much space for computation in YGO,
00:03:51 <longname> Master rule 4 introduced Extra Monster Zones, so with Link monsters you can have 7 max if both EMZs are connected by link monsters--again very specific scenario
00:03:56 <longname> Yeah, doesn't seem like it.
00:04:25 <b_jonas> oh well
00:06:10 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: but how would it even be possible to set up a situation where you can set up a busy beaver damage loop, but no infinite damage loop?
00:07:12 <MTGBusyBeaver> If the TM output tokens that couldn't attack until the TM halted.
00:07:35 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: sure, but why would the player choose to build that particular TM, instead of a TM... oh
00:07:47 <b_jonas> you want a combo that can only deal damage once
00:07:50 <b_jonas> that's clever
00:08:03 <b_jonas> does Goblin Cannon help?
00:08:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> no because it has to be in one chunk
00:08:27 <b_jonas> probably no, it's not better than like a Fireball
00:08:43 <b_jonas> or some other non-permanent that deals X damage, what's the simplest one
00:09:00 <b_jonas> why does the damage have to be in one chunk?
00:09:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> because the opponent would die and the game would end
00:09:28 <b_jonas> oh, you're not going by DMM's rules for this?
00:09:46 <b_jonas> though I also don't see how you'll limit the size of the Turing Machine. 
00:10:07 <b_jonas> if you can set up a TM, you can probably clone the cards more times to set up a turing machine with a longer BB program and thus more damage
00:10:27 <MTGBusyBeaver> We will only have a finite amount of mana
00:10:49 <MTGBusyBeaver> and yes we can probably setup a VERY large TM
00:11:18 <b_jonas> Heat Ray
00:11:26 <b_jonas> that's the canonical instant that deals X damage for XR mana
00:12:06 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: ok, so how will you have only a finite amount of mana, and no Omnipotence I assume, but enough mana to build up a complicated combo?
00:12:17 <b_jonas> hmm
00:12:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> We are slightly limited by the number of creature types (~200) but we can just implement a UTM 
00:12:21 <b_jonas> that does seem more easily solvable
00:12:38 <b_jonas> because there are some large infinite combos that involve mana
00:12:42 <b_jonas> large finite combos
00:13:06 <MTGBusyBeaver> heat ray is probably no good because as an instant we could inturrupt the TM's function
00:13:33 <MTGBusyBeaver> https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?page=97
00:13:44 <b_jonas> well Disintegrate if you want a sorcery
00:13:57 <b_jonas> but I assumed you'd be in a loop that you can't exit anyway, so you need an instant
00:14:14 <MTGBusyBeaver> no we want the loop to only exit if the machine halts
00:14:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> not asking you to read that whole 90+ page thread
00:15:14 <MTGBusyBeaver> but many of the "how?" questions are answere in there
00:16:51 <MTGBusyBeaver> for a full writeup of what we accomplished in old standard: https://docs.google.com/document/d/174jrMcjZ8rWurGCvylWyql9cH0sAVPIXPzT0ucMq308/edit?usp=sharing
00:19:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> (I'm FortyTwo on the forums there)
00:19:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> but that name was obviouslly taken here
00:21:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> anyway I g2g, thanks, I will check back.
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00:22:26 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: and you probably don't even need such complicated combos here, because you don't need a huge finite number of mana with power towers, only like a million mana, which should be easier to generate
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07:48:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> I think I have an implementation of https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model in Magic: The Gathering.  https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?comment=2434 But it seems that we might run out of creature type namespace, How big does a waterfall TM need to be to
07:48:53 <MTGBusyBeaver> encode a universal TM?
08:04:31 <oerjan> ais523 isn't here at the moment, he's the main one who's trying to do this.
08:04:39 <oerjan> MTGBusyBeaver: ^
08:05:57 <oerjan> although i think getting a "small" TC waterfall model may be exactly where he was stuck last i heard
08:08:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> Well it doesnt need to be tiny, there are 249 creature types so we get a size 124 waterfall machine
08:17:47 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that's way more than needed
08:18:02 <oerjan> assuming you mean 124 clocks
08:19:05 <oerjan> i think ais523 was aiming for something small enough that he could remember it for an actual tournament
08:19:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, i figured 20-30 would be sufficient.
09:20:13 <oerjan> oh i see you've been discussing on this channel before
09:22:16 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: you can't really "filter" them after the fact, that's uncomputable and at least as halt as telling if a turing machine halts <-- there's a simple checkable property that ensures a TWM program never is ambiguous and which any other can be translated into
09:23:11 <oerjan> basically, if N is the number of clocks, multiply all adjustments by N, and let the clocks start with distinct values (mod N)
09:24:16 <oerjan> (well N>=number of clocks suffices)
09:25:51 <oerjan> then they can never become the same (mod N), so will never trigger simultaneously
09:27:02 <oerjan> MTGBusyBeaver: ^ in case you still have this problem
09:28:09 <oerjan> int-e: ^ you too
09:28:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: ais said that he's pretty sure there is a very small universal waterfall machine program, but it's hard to explicitly construct one
09:30:02 <b_jonas> but for a tournament, you don't necessarily need a program with the smallest number of clocks, rather you'll need a program with a reasonable number of clocks where the numbers in the program matrix aren't too difficult to remember
09:30:43 <b_jonas> and that might be impossible
09:44:08 <oerjan> hm.
09:52:49 <b_jonas> the tournament rules have two rules relevant for this: 2.11 "Taking Notes", which says that during a game, you can't refer to notes except those taken during the game, except "Artistic modifications to cards that provide minor strategic information" with the Head Judge's permission, and I don't think a huge TWM program could count as such; 
09:53:53 <b_jonas> and 5.5 "Slow Play", which I quote "Players must take their turns in a timely fashion regardless of the complexity of the play situation and adhere to time limits specified for the tournament. Players must maintain a pace to allow the match to be finished in the announced time limit.
09:54:37 <b_jonas> " which means you aren't allowed to take too much time just because before the tournament you came up with a funny strategy to create a hard to determine or even incomputable outcome
09:54:48 <myname> are those artistic modifications limited to the front side of the back or can i basically play with a marked deck?
09:55:14 <myname> knowing what i will draw next is quite the strategic information
09:55:24 <b_jonas> myname: you can't mark the backs unless those marks are completely covered by an opaque sleeves, there's a separate rule for that
09:55:44 <myname> :(
09:55:54 <b_jonas> myname: this causes actual problems because cards and/or sleeves become worn and accidentally marked over time
09:56:13 <myname> yeah, like in higurashi
09:56:29 <b_jonas> chapter 3 is relevant on this
09:56:55 <b_jonas> anyway, previously I suggested that rule 5.2 "Bribery" may also be relevant for the Turing Machine setup, but it seems it isn't
09:59:23 <b_jonas> anyway, these rules basically imply that to pull off the combo in a tournament, you have to be able to reconstruct it without prior notes, and do all that fast enough to fit the game or match in the time limit or before the opponent or a judge gets annoyed of you playing very slowly
10:02:06 <oerjan> well ais523 _is_ also a speedrunner :P
10:05:53 <b_jonas> yes. and there are some feats that even speedrunners can't do, because the tool-assisted speedrunners haven't found them a way to break the game completely, so they actually have to, like, play levels rather than just warp to the end
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10:06:04 <b_jonas> some games are too well programmed
10:07:49 <b_jonas> interesting examples are NES Super Mario Brothers, which does have some crazy bugs including wrong-warping to a world that isn't among the eight planned worlds and so behaves strangely, yet that doesn't seem to help you finish the game any faster
10:09:16 <b_jonas> and GB Super Mario Land which is surprisingly bug-free, the only serious bugs I've seen are one that lets you defeat the world 4 boss somewhat quicker (and with a graphical glitch), and one that freezes the game in 4-4 when the star wears off
10:09:35 <b_jonas> but nothing that would let you skip levels or warp to the end of the game
10:09:52 <b_jonas> gtg bye
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11:00:33 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but nothing that would let you skip levels or warp to the end of the game  <b_jonas> gtg bye => b_jonas warped to the end of the conversation
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13:56:39 <b_jonas> argh
14:02:19 <rain1> hi
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14:20:41 <int-e> Ah, the Ponder This February challenge is closed. :)
14:20:56 <int-e> The "intended solution" is funny.
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14:41:54 <int-e> arseniiv: The main trick to getting close to the target is that the game is amenable to being split in the middle; if you have snakes leaving five consecutive squares n-5..n-1, and confine all other snakes and ladders to the resulting two parts of the board, you can simply add the expected number of moves to reach square n, and the expected number of moves to get from there to 100. So you can...
14:42:00 <int-e> ...meet in the middle: tabulate solutions for one part of the board, and then go through solutions for the right part and find the best candidates to complete it with a binary search.
14:42:36 <int-e> arseniiv: So it's not *just* brute force, and that made this problem interesting :)
14:43:25 <arseniiv> int-e: hi to you too (:
14:43:58 <int-e> arseniiv: :P (no, you don't have to reply to that. I singled you out because I know you at least looked at the problem briefly :P)
14:44:34 <arseniiv> now I’m coughing :D
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15:18:23 <longname> {Hot Red King Calamity}
15:18:23 <longname> {Hot Red King Calamity}
15:18:27 <longname> woah
15:18:33 <longname> did not mean to paste
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17:43:05 <arseniiv> my laziness again ends up in that I want to program something but I’m bored and don’t want anything coming to my mind
17:43:20 <arseniiv> that’s unhealthy
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17:48:38 <int-e> arseniiv: I have plenty of ways to make this worse if you're intestested.
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17:52:25 <arseniiv> int-e: :) for example?
17:53:10 <int-e> arseniiv: webcomics, project euler, various youtubes
17:54:13 <int-e> (For example I've watched way too much "8 out of 10 cats does Countdown" episodes recently)
17:55:44 <arseniiv> don’t know what that is. I suppose I shouldn’t check?
17:57:06 <arseniiv> project euler => ah. You wouldn’t believe but I hadn’t tried anything like this either, though I considered why not (and then proceeded with the not)
17:57:08 <int-e> arseniiv: it's a mock version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show)
17:57:44 <arseniiv> int-e: I see
17:58:18 <int-e> arseniiv: so it's pretty harmless (and, to me at least, entertaining), but it takes time, of course.
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18:02:21 <int-e> arseniiv: and if all else fails you can get into a fight with some stupid person on ##math :P
18:02:42 <int-e> Living the dream: https://xkcd.com/386/
18:03:53 <int-e> It won't make you feel any better, it'll just make you older. :P
18:08:45 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah arguing with people over the fact their approach to divide by zero isn’t sensible is quite unbearable these times
18:10:29 <arseniiv> I’m only glad I haven’t stuck myself even once in an argument about parity of zero
18:11:01 <int-e> zero is even. two is the odd prime. that seems to exhaust the topic ;)
18:12:08 <arseniiv> but even these times I still rarely make a grave mistake on a local forum and only then realize what I’ve done and that it’s already written in the furniture of space-time
18:12:12 <arseniiv> I mean, fabric
18:12:35 <arseniiv> <int-e> zero is even. two is the odd prime. that seems to exhaust the topic ;) => what about primality of one?
18:13:21 <arseniiv> though, there are of course many far weirder things to argue about with strange people, of course
18:13:43 <int-e> arseniiv: every definition of primes I've ever seen excluded 1. :P
18:14:03 <arseniiv> yeah I agree it shouldn’t be prime
18:14:29 <int-e> interestingly this is far less contentious than the question whether 0 is a natural number, or whether 0^0 should be 1 or undefined.
18:15:50 <arseniiv> I think the main fallacy of why people want to have 1 prime is that they don’t sufficiently understand the theorem about prime decomposition and can’t see why “prime vs. composite” is a false dichotomy
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18:16:59 <arseniiv> <int-e> interestingly this is far less contentious than the question whether 0 is a natural number, or whether 0^0 should be 1 or undefined. => ah, yeah, just about anyone has a strong opinion on these (mine are yes and 1, resp.)
18:19:04 <int-e> The worst discussions are usually those about 0.999... = 1 though, because invariably the people arguing don't have a firm enough grasp on the definition of the reals and the alternatives to have a meaningful discussion about this.
18:19:49 <arseniiv> unfortunately the historic tradition in here is to exclude zero. Then they say “ah your CS and set theory and whatnot may benefit from a natural zero, but don’t you touch our analysis and here, take our beloved limit of x^y for several different bases)
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18:20:19 <arseniiv> oh, 0.(9) = 1 is a sad thing, yes
18:21:29 <int-e> . o O ( Decimal expansions with digits indexed by a non-standard model of the natural numbers. )
18:21:31 <arseniiv> it seems I forgot to close the quote, here now”
18:22:13 <int-e> I believe 0 is slowly winning over mathematicians as well.
18:23:14 <arseniiv> <int-e> . o O ( Decimal expansions with digits indexed by a non-standard model of the natural numbers. ) => yeah I thought about that a few times but didn’t think it would lead to something not already known
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18:26:10 <int-e> arseniiv: My favorite idea involves surreal numbers, but decimal expansions are not adequate for describing those.
18:28:16 <arseniiv> int-e: BTW don’t you know how these compare to Puiseux series? I think the latter were a smaller set?
18:30:17 <int-e> What's that... fancy. But they are a set. (Surreal numbers are a proper class.)
18:31:01 <int-e> (Which is one of the facets that makes them surreal.)
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18:36:25 <arseniiv> (Surreal numbers are a proper class.) => ah yeah I forgot about that, that settles it
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19:11:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * FortyTwo *  New user account
19:31:57 <kspalaiologos> #esoteric's <=> #math for some time now
19:32:14 <b_jonas> more arghj
19:32:34 <kspalaiologos> :p
19:33:08 <kspalaiologos> yet again I'm doing useless brainfuck stuff instead of taking on something that has sense
19:33:19 <kspalaiologos> wrapping my head on implementing an itoa-like hex mechanism
19:34:14 <kspalaiologos> i'd really like to do this without reversing but I'm a bit worried to have my taperam smashed when the number's big enough if I start from the end
19:34:46 <kspalaiologos> but I mean is it worth it to support bignum brainfuck interpreters being 0.00001% of the total
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19:53:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70111&oldid=70076 * FortyTwo * (+209) 
19:53:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70112&oldid=68770 * FortyTwo * (+806) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */ new section
19:53:33 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70113&oldid=70112 * FortyTwo * (+84) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */
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20:56:28 <esowiki> [[Lisp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70114&oldid=69409 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) fiX grammar
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22:52:46 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70119 * Hanzlu * (+7106) Created page with "A Language I Made But It Has No Name   import random  import time    file = open("code", "r")  code = file.read()    userfile = ""  usercode = ""  userptr = 0  useropen = Fals..."
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2020-03-04:

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02:01:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70121&oldid=70113 * Ais523 * (+591) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */ I don't know the minimum, but it's a lot less than 124
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03:00:49 <ais523> re the M:tG Turing machine: if all you want is a TWM problem that the judges won't be able to work out the resolution of, I recommend quadratic residuosity
03:00:56 <ais523> which should be pretty easy to implement in TWM
03:01:18 <ais523> I posted https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/70743/what-makes-the-quadratic-residuosity-problem-hard as a setup for encoding QRosity into TWM, hopefully in a program that's small enough to memorise
03:01:47 <ais523> (the issue being that we need to find an example program for which there's no known way to discover whether it halts or not in a viable length of time)
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03:11:10 <ais523> MTGBusyBeaver: I'm going to bed now but I'll try to get online tomorrow, the idea of combining a universal computer and a no-infinite-loops deck hadn't occured to me at all but is the sort of ridiculousness I approve of
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03:50:56 <Hooloovo0> I think some of the more simple ones I've seen in other ]]
03:51:18 <Hooloovo0> err other simple systems are a twin prime checker and a collatz relative in CGOL
03:51:34 <Hooloovo0> but those are still pretty complicated, and aided by the 2d nature of the CA
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04:52:47 <MTGBusyBeaver> Thanks ais523, unsolved problems arent actually very good, as either it is proved false in which case the machine never halts, or there is a counter example probably at less than 10^^^10, which is a score we can already beat.
04:53:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> So we want to implement the biggest busy beaver machine possible
04:55:20 <MTGBusyBeaver> But that is limited by the namespace, so we really get the improvement via a UTM.
04:58:13 <MTGBusyBeaver> How does a waterfall UTM work? We can get oodles of googles as the variables in a waterfall program, what sort of ratio are we getting for the inputs to the size of machine simulated?
05:02:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> Not to mention that we can iterate the UTM to get BB(BB(....BB(X)...)) 
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08:14:02 <b_jonas> no you can't
08:14:11 <b_jonas> you can't get BB(BB(X))
08:17:04 <b_jonas> (also I find it ridiculous when an ultrafinitist argues that 10**400 might not exist, but if you talk about BB(BB(X)) I might have some more sympathy to their side)
08:20:39 <b_jonas> what you can get is BB(X) for a large X, just by putting O(X) (or maybe O(2)**X) tokens somewhere into the waterfall program, so you can't just compute BB(100), which is already ridiculous, but BB(10**(10**100))
08:25:41 <b_jonas> heck, you very likely can't even get BB(100), you can only pick a long-running program that you can prove will finish
08:25:51 <b_jonas> and that won't run for anything close to BB(100) turns
08:26:11 <b_jonas> though it can run longer than most of the other M:tG loop constructions
08:29:16 <esowiki> [[Int**]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70122&oldid=70071 * Hakerh400 * (-15) /* Computational class */
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09:10:37 <tromp> int-e: how to reconnect in a private chat?
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09:40:26 <tromp> int-e: your unsatisfiability proof is correct, except that the center using all 3 colors can only be concluded in the 6th diagram
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13:32:36 <ais523> b_jonas: I think MTGBusyBeaver's point is that you can create an M:tG deck that's capable of simulating all The Waterfall Model programs below a specific size, but can't get any output from the simulations unless they halt
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13:33:23 <ais523> the question is now "how much damage can this deck do turn 1?", which is a busy beaver problem, as it'll depend on which program produces the largest output
13:34:28 <ais523> it doesn't require you to find some specific program (although it's helpful to show that you can at least construct a UTM, because that gives you a bound on how fast the busy beaver function grows in this context)
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14:49:59 <ais523> MTGBusyBeaver: fwiw, I'm concerned about the use of Arcbond in the construction; what's to prevent a player setting up an infinitely looping machine without protecting the opponent from Arcbond, and doing infinite damage that way?
14:50:16 <ais523> or does the fact that the opponent loses at 0 life count as stopping the loop, and thus it isn't infinite damage unless you do it all at once?
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15:05:47 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes if the opponent dies thegame ends.
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15:11:02 <MTGBusyBeaver> as for iterating the BB function, why is that not something we can do? The BB machine outputs a lot of some resource, then we use that resource to build an even bigger TM and use a more finite resource to trigger the run.
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15:13:21 <int-e> The busy beaver function is uncomputable.
15:13:51 <MTGBusyBeaver> but it is by definition some finite number
15:14:15 <MTGBusyBeaver> we will never know it exactly
15:15:14 <int-e> But it's a function, so it's not just a single number.
15:17:40 <MTGBusyBeaver> BB(X) is the busy beaver number of a turing machine of size X, taking the integers to the integers, so BB(BB(X)) is a well formed statement, even though we will never be able to evaluate it
15:17:42 <int-e> There's a conceptual gap here somewhere. For example, we can create a Turing machine, that, given n, outputs a sequence lower bounds for the busy beaver function, such that the last value output is the value of the busy beaver function itself.
15:19:47 <MTGBusyBeaver> But that TM never halts?
15:20:37 <int-e> I don't get how you intend to accomplish that iteration.
15:22:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> Because the MTG:TM incidentially outputs lets say life for us. and the size of the TM we can make is limited by our life, and running the TM takes something else eg: red mana.
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15:24:00 <MTGBusyBeaver> so say we start with a combo that makes X life and 5 red, then use our TM to turn 1 red into BB(X)
15:24:42 <MTGBusyBeaver> then we can spend another red after the BB machine halts to run BB(BB(X))
15:25:01 <int-e> There is no TM that computes BB(X), given X.
15:25:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> But there is a size X machine that outputs BB(X)
15:26:35 <int-e> Yes (more or less). But *you* have to know what that machine is when setting up the computation.
15:26:56 <int-e> And when you iterate, *you* have to come up with the TM of size BB(X) that outputs BB(BB(X))?
15:29:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> No we don't, knowing the machine exists is enough to define it.
15:29:57 <int-e> ...
15:30:09 <MTGBusyBeaver> for our purposes at least
15:30:27 <int-e> I'm missing something about the intention here.
15:30:54 <int-e> I thought you wanted to leave the game in a state where there are no choices left, and leave it to the arbiter to run it to its conclusion.
15:31:15 <MTGBusyBeaver> no, we want to do the most damage possible.
15:31:45 <int-e> Are you doing something like assuming best play by both players?
15:32:28 <int-e> (I suppose that would bring you into ATM territory where you can play such tricks indeed.)
15:32:41 <int-e> (But again, all the burden of finding the machines would be on the players.)
15:33:09 <MTGBusyBeaver> a little stronger than that. Our opponent knows what we are trying and is trying to either minimze the total damage or disqualify the deck by allowing it to go infinite.
15:35:23 <MTGBusyBeaver> single card draw is a Demonic Tutor in disguise: you can assume that the order of your deck is exactly what you want it to be. This veers pretty heavily into magical christmasland, but if we didn’t do it this way you’d have to figure out the average amount of damage a deck could deal, which is probably impossible.
15:35:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> with a deck of 60 wastes. However, they are still playing to stop you: if you give your opponent a choice, they will pick whichever one is worse for you. The only exception is that they won’t concede the game. This is a sadistic goldfish that wants to make you play it out.
15:35:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> of the time, so we define it like this: when you make your deck, I pick a finite number, say, a million, or Graham’s Number, or four. If, no matter what number I pick, there’s a line your deck can take that will deal at least that much damage, your deck goes infinite and is disqualified.
15:35:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> magic apply: if I put 80,000,000 copies of Shock on the stack and target my opponent with each one, they’ll die on the tenth one, and I’ll have dealt only 20 damage. In practice, that means you’re either winning with a giant X-spell or by attacking with a lot of very big creatures.
15:37:45 <cpressey> "Do the most damage possible in MtG" reminds me a lot of "Name the Biggest Number": https://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html
15:38:20 <int-e> cpressey: I'll be generous and let you go first.
15:38:36 <int-e> (That's how it works, doesn't it?)
15:38:57 <tromp> int-e: did you say you had a less-than in 58 bits with coroutines?
15:40:34 <int-e> tromp: Yes.
15:40:50 <tromp> i was able to reproduce that:)
15:41:14 <tromp> much more straightforward than your div and even your min
15:41:33 <int-e> tromp: I thought that if you take 'min' as the blueprint you should be able to find the comparisons :)
15:41:35 <tromp> i see now what you mean by div (m+1) being ewsier
15:41:38 <cpressey> You can work on BB(10) and you can have a working theory for what BB(10) might be but you'll never know if it actually is BB(10).  Similarly, you could work on BB(BB(10)) but you have to revise your theory about BB(BB(10)) every time you revise your theory about BB(10).
15:42:12 <tromp> still surprising that you can do div m with only an additional appllication to id
15:42:16 <int-e> tromp: It has occurred to me that maybe a divisibility test would be a tad shorter than the modulo operation.
15:43:08 <int-e> (I haven't put that one to the test though, yet.)
15:45:05 <MTGBusyBeaver> that's not a problem? We are basically playing that name the biggest number game, We can get a bit beyond Ackermann numbers in standard.
15:45:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> (though on a later turn)
15:48:09 <tromp> int-e: did you also try a less-than-or-equal ?
15:48:22 <int-e> tromp: it's the same?
15:48:31 <int-e> tromp: I mean, swap the arguments and true and false
15:49:15 <tromp> good point:-)
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16:00:54 <int-e> MTGBusyBeaver: Which is fine. Basically you're looking for busy beavers, where the model of computation of M:tG. You can define a busy beaver function for that, say in terms of the deck size.
16:01:06 <int-e> MTGBusyBeaver: But none of that lets you iterate the busy beaver function itself.
16:01:14 <int-e> Because it's uncomputable.
16:01:54 <MTGBusyBeaver> only this week we worked out a turing machine setup that works in the rules,
16:02:36 <MTGBusyBeaver> and can set it up to be repeatable some finite number of times
16:03:16 <Taneb> There's no Turing machine that computes BB(x)
16:04:33 <MTGBusyBeaver> No, but there is some turing machine of size x that outputs BB(x)
16:05:04 <Taneb> There's certainly one that takes that many cycles to halt
16:05:37 <Taneb> Or well, writes that number of 1s on the tape
16:06:04 <int-e> Maybe "there's a line in your deck" is not precise enough.
16:06:05 <Taneb> You can't then take that number and emit BB(BB(x)) without knowing the answer beforehand
16:06:20 <int-e> What does that mean, exactly?
16:06:31 <Taneb> At which point, why not just do that directly? Why not go straight to BB(BB(x)) + 1?
16:06:41 <int-e> (Who gets to make the choices for that line of play?)
16:06:49 <MTGBusyBeaver> the opponent
16:07:00 <int-e> Yeah then you have no alternation.
16:07:13 <int-e> So no way of iterating the busy beaver function at all, not even theoretically.
16:07:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> why?
16:07:40 <tromp> int-e: please add div test term to the repo if it offers nontrivial improvement over mod size
16:07:53 <int-e> Because the opponent will just pick a non-terminating TM instead.
16:08:07 <tromp> shld be called divides.lam i guess
16:08:11 <MTGBusyBeaver> but a ton terminating TM doesnt do any damage
16:08:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> non*
16:08:30 <int-e> MTGBusyBeaver: "non-terminating" was for "something that does infinite damage".
16:08:38 <int-e> or unbounded, which is the same.
16:08:59 <MTGBusyBeaver> but the only way to do damage is by attacking with all the giant creatures the TM makes
16:09:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> if the TM never halts we cant attack
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16:11:36 <int-e> Hmm. I see, I'm wrong about needing alternation.
16:12:09 <int-e> Plain non-determinism is enough, and you get that.
16:13:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> we need the TM to be deterministic, or we can just loop for an arbitrary amount of time and then halt
16:13:44 <int-e> The non-determinism is in the choices the player can make in setting up that TM.
16:14:40 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes we have that
16:16:30 <MTGBusyBeaver> The working TM implementation of the Waterfall Model is here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?comment=2434
16:17:58 <int-e> So we have: NTM A(n): guess TM B of size n; run B to completion; return number of steps taken,  and a computational model that discards all non-terminating runs and picks the maximum value produced by the others.
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16:20:29 <MTGBusyBeaver> pretty much
16:21:12 <cpressey> "a computational model that discards all non-terminating runs"
16:21:54 <MTGBusyBeaver> a run that never terminates does no damage and scores zero
16:22:33 <cpressey> How do you propose to test a run to see if it will never terminate
16:23:25 <imode> very carefully. ;)
16:24:22 <MTGBusyBeaver> we don't need to every actually construct the busy beaver machines, just know that they are bounded by BB(n)
16:24:22 <int-e> cpressey: You don't.
16:24:47 <int-e> cpressey: It's a perfectly fine definition, just not computable.
16:25:21 <int-e> MTGBusyBeaver: Obviously to actually deal that amount of money you still have to fine the busy beavers.
16:25:25 <int-e> money?
16:25:30 <int-e> Fun brain fart.
16:25:35 <int-e> I meant damage.
16:26:39 <imode> didn't know you bet on MTG int-e. :P
16:26:57 <MTGBusyBeaver> well we just want to set bounds for the damage, highest lowest bound with an upper bound wins
16:27:00 <int-e> imode: I don't. But I imagine it would be as good a way of losing money as all the others.
16:28:06 <imode> high-stakes MTG tournaments lmao.
16:28:27 <MTGBusyBeaver> so we can bound it by BB(...BB(X)...)
16:29:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> BB^X(X) for some large X
16:32:43 <cpressey> int-e: Did you notice you didn't stop at "money", you also said "fine" for "find"?
16:34:00 <cpressey> Image of a parking patroller tucking a ticket under the wipers on a Turing machine.
16:34:49 <fizzie> int-e's all about the money, all about the dum dum da da dum dum.
16:35:16 <int-e> cpressey: No I had not noticed that.
16:35:30 <int-e> cpressey: That's a plausible typo though, at least.
16:36:39 <cpressey> I'm a little unclear on whether just having a (perfectly fine) definition is sufficient for MtG, or if you have to actually, you know, be able to compute it, in order to take your turn.
16:37:24 <int-e> cpressey: I think it works just as MTGBusyBeaver claims... you don't need to know what the upper bound is, just that it exists.
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16:39:06 <int-e> cpressey: And the trick is, non-termination doesn't kill you; it's only the things that do terminate that eventually deal you any damage.
16:39:48 <MTGBusyBeaver> We'd like to be a little less handwavey and at least explicitly construct/explain/justify the UTM in the Waterfall method
16:40:26 <int-e> cpressey: It's a really funny situation where given a candidate for an upper bound you'll (probably) never be able to tell whether it's big enough already :)
16:40:27 <MTGBusyBeaver> as we are limited to 124 waterclocks
16:40:30 <cpressey> So "In principle there's a TM that deals a huge amount of damage because it computes BB(...(BB(10)...), but I don't know exactly what that TM is" is sufficient?
16:40:38 <cpressey> If so then OK
16:41:07 <int-e> cpressey: No, it's an NTM that computes that thing, and we do know what that NTM is.
16:41:18 <MTGBusyBeaver> we are the NTM
16:41:20 <int-e> But we can't run NTMs in practice.
16:41:46 <cpressey> Um
16:42:32 <int-e> cpressey: Somewhere, internally, that NTM *guesses* the actual TM.
16:43:09 <MTGBusyBeaver> There are only finitely many possible TMs of a given size
16:43:12 <int-e> Or TMs, plural. One that computes BB(10), one that computes BB(BB(10)), and so on.
16:43:35 <cpressey> "An NTM guesses a TM" is roughly the same as "In principle there's a TM", what I said
16:43:50 <int-e> cpressey: True.
16:44:25 <int-e> But also kind of missing the point; for any natural number n, there's a TM that computes n.
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16:45:12 <int-e> But I didn't mention the size constraint either, so I'm not sure what my objection is.
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17:00:31 <arseniiv> <MTGBusyBeaver> we are the NTM => I would doubt that
17:01:31 <int-e> many-world quantum physics gets somewhat close
17:01:43 <int-e> but even that has a hard time collecting results
17:08:58 <ais523> I guess the idea with this Magic construction is that it lets you calculate any number a UTM can calculate
17:09:04 <ais523> up to a certain size n
17:09:21 <ais523> so we know that it's capable of calculating BB(n) and no higher number, but we don't know what input you have to give it to produce that
17:09:59 <ais523> there doesn't seem to be a conceputal issue with iterating that: you could perhaps modify it so that it's capable of calculating a range of numbers of which the highest is BB(BB(n)), given the appropriate input
17:10:02 <ais523> but not be able to determine what that input is
17:10:21 <ais523> the reason this works is that what we have is, conceptually, an interpreter that refuses to run non-halting programs
17:11:09 <ais523> I really should create a universal interpreter for some TC language in TWM some day, even if it's far from optimal
17:11:14 <ais523> just to get a baseline
17:11:26 <ais523> on how many waterclocks you need
17:11:33 <ais523> I keep on getting sidetracked trying to optimise it
17:11:51 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, even if it is inefficient as long as it works with 124 waterclocks
17:12:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> which is probably way more than needed
17:12:41 <ais523> well, the limit's a little less than 124 because you need a few creature types to set it up, right? Cat in particular is unusable
17:12:57 <ais523> but much less than 124 seems definitely viable
17:13:28 <MTGBusyBeaver> well the halting clock is one of the 124
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17:14:49 <MTGBusyBeaver> but we get to use everything else as we can make the setup creatures lose their types (and avoid arcbond damage) with One with the stars
17:14:52 <ais523> I personally count halt states, although not everybody does
17:15:20 <ais523> that's a fun card, and one I came up with myself when brainstorming custom cards (although my version of it was white)
17:16:48 <ais523> `card-by-name One With the Stars
17:16:50 <HackEso> No output.
17:17:03 <ais523> oh right, I need to persuade someone to add Theros Beyond Death to that thing
17:17:08 <ais523> `card-by-name Hungry Lynx
17:17:09 <HackEso> Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R
17:17:13 <MTGBusyBeaver> Enchanted permanent is an enchantment and loses all other card types. (It still has its abilities, but it’s no longer a creature.)
17:17:25 <ais523> I was mostly just trying to show it off
17:18:05 <ais523> b_jonas: can you update HackEso's M:tG database to include the latest cards? given the current topic of discussion it may well be relevant
17:18:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> well we don't use hungry lynx anymore
17:18:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> 'card-by-name coat of arms
17:18:41 <ais523> backquote, not apostrophe
17:18:51 <ais523> and yes, that was an interesting idea for the construction
17:18:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name coat of arms
17:18:53 <HackEso> Coat of Arms \ 5 \ Artifact \ Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) \ EX-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R, DDS-R, H09-R
17:19:06 <ais523> my main aim was to hit the whole thing into a sideboard, so I wanted to do it with as few cards as possible
17:19:22 <ais523> but single-purpose cards are much better for what you're doing
17:20:57 <MTGBusyBeaver> it still fits in a sideboard
17:21:36 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70151&oldid=70150 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+245) /* Variables */
17:21:47 <ais523> hmm, neat
17:21:54 <ais523> but Coat of Arms is an artifact, so it might be hard to wish it out of the sideboard
17:23:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> there are several ways to wish for it
17:24:09 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name Karn, the great creator
17:24:11 <HackEso> No output.
17:24:44 <MTGBusyBeaver> hasn't been updated in a while?
17:24:50 <ais523> right, but the point is that you'd need extra cards in maindeck for sideboard
17:24:54 <ais523> yes, I think it's out of date
17:25:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> Fae of wishes is another pretty generic wish
17:26:12 <MTGBusyBeaver> and Mastermind's acquisition
17:26:28 <ais523> Omni-tell naturally runs multiple Cunning Wish and Burning Wish, which is one of the things that made it such a good shell to set the UTM up
17:26:41 <ais523> like, the whole point was to make a UTM that was tournament-competitive
17:27:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> well wish for Mastermind's acquisition for the rest of the SB 
17:28:53 <MTGBusyBeaver> though the sb doesnt have enough slots to ensure your opponent can't interact also.
17:29:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> I think
17:37:24 <ais523> would the presence of Doubling Season mess up an attempt to use the UTM?
17:37:58 <ais523> e.g. by, if it were still on the battlefield at that point, producing too many triggers that could be stacked in awkward ways to introduce player-choosable nondeterminism?
17:40:03 <MTGBusyBeaver> the order the tokens etb doesn't change the operation of TM
17:40:13 <ais523> even if there are too many of them?
17:41:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> if there are more than expected, there will be some other operation we are doing, but it doesnt give us extra choices
17:42:05 <ais523> right, in that case it's fine
17:42:14 <ais523> (assuming we have a way to get rid of the Doubling Seasons, and I suspect we do)
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17:43:36 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, we can bounce them
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17:43:53 <MTGBusyBeaver> we can bounce the doubling seasons
17:44:12 <MTGBusyBeaver> before starting the tm
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17:45:22 <ais523> on a related note, I was trying to prove Android: Netrunner TC a while back, but I don't think it is
17:45:29 <ais523> it has the opposite problem to Yu-Gi-Oh
17:45:45 <ais523> in Yu-Gi-Oh, there are ways to store data but you can't store a program, there just isn't enough room on the playmat
17:46:23 <ais523> in Android: Netrunner, storing a program is trivial (subroutines are a game mechanic!), but although you have a few places to write data, reading it back is incredibly difficult, and I don't think you can get sufficiently many variables that you can read
17:49:07 <ais523> another issue is that the game designers are paranoid about infinite combos of any sort, although I did manage to construct a nontrivial mandatory infinite loop
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18:08:05 <ais523> (it involved Always Be Running on the runner side, and two copies of Off the Grid, Whirlpool, Hourglass, and Mirāju on the Corp side, plus one unplayable card in hand; every turn, the runner is forced to run a specific central, is banned from jacking out, loses all their clicks, then puts the corp card from their hand back into their deck)
18:08:22 <ais523> (and on the corp turn they can't do anything but click for credits, assuming their deck is empty)
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19:00:53 <int-e> tromp: pushed (non-)divisibility
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19:04:20 <int-e> tromp: (non-divisibility is shorter because of the accident that  m false = false  for Church numerals  m > 0).
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19:53:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70152&oldid=70094 * Hanzlu * (+16) 
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20:21:38 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver, ais523, int-e: I'll review this conversation about M:tG later, but not this evening. I was busy with some urgent real life stuff. 
20:23:05 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, I can't update the database. so far my copies of Oracle were either a straight copy of Yawgatog's database, or mined from the previous iteration of the Oracle website. now I'll have to download the data from the new Oracle site, which I started once but it got complicated so I suspended it indefinitely, or download Scryfall's more accurate database. 
20:23:10 <b_jonas> ideally both and compare them.
20:26:16 <b_jonas> for now I just want to mention that Lifespark Spellbomb; Utopia Sprawl; Freed from the Real is a simple infinite green mana combo that doesn't also let you deal unlimited damage by attacking with a small creature each turn, so that plus Disintegrate lets you deal an unlimited amount of damage only once
20:33:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, that combo would disqualify the deck as it is not bounded.
20:51:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70153&oldid=70151 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Hello, World! */ Fixed heading level
21:02:47 <esowiki> [[Iflang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70154&oldid=70118 * Hanzlu * (-1431) Blanked the page
21:03:34 <esowiki> [[Iflang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70155&oldid=70154 * Hanzlu * (+1431) Undo revision 70154 by [[Special:Contributions/Hanzlu|Hanzlu]] ([[User talk:Hanzlu|talk]])
21:18:08 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70156&oldid=70153 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+217) /* Indentation */
21:43:52 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70157&oldid=70104 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Commands */ Now Ive updated the reference interpreter
21:44:13 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70158&oldid=70143 * Hanzlu * (+2) 
21:47:14 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70159&oldid=70157 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Example programs */
21:59:30 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70160&oldid=70159 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+92) /* Example programs */
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2020-03-05:

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00:24:57 <MTGBusyBeaver> bad news for the MTG turing machine for the most damage challenge: Arcbond triggers can be interleaved with death triggers. This seems like a hard problem to fix.
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01:26:58 <zzo38> Try the Unusenet newsgroup un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.maths if you are interested in those kind of things with Magic: the Gathering; there may also be some Usenet newsgroups about such thing although I do not know which ones they are.
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01:38:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70162&oldid=70161 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+285) /* Cat for 1 char */ FINISH
01:47:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70163&oldid=70162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* Interpret PlusOrMinus 1 char at a time */ done
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05:59:18 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70164&oldid=70158 * JonoCode9374 * (+60) 
06:18:24 <esowiki> [[ZFC++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70165 * Hakerh400 * (+7714) +[[ZFC++]]
06:18:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70166&oldid=70152 * Hakerh400 * (+12) +[[ZFC++]]
06:18:29 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70167&oldid=70087 * Hakerh400 * (+12) +[[ZFC++]]
06:35:26 <esowiki> [[ZFC++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70168&oldid=70165 * Hakerh400 * (-1) 
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10:12:14 <cpressey> Good morning.  I have a vague idea for an esolang.  It's like a Turing machine, but instead of writing symbols on the tape, it writes continuations.
10:13:03 <cpressey> Now, if you could compare continuations, you could use them like symbols, and that would be boring, so ideally, what the machine does with these continuations written on its tape, is to continue them.
10:13:17 <cpressey> But I don't know how that would work.
10:15:43 <cpressey> I don't actually think it *would* work.  One of the salient aspects of a Turing machine is that it looks at what symbols are on the tape, it compares them against something.  To do something far removed from that would be very un-Turing-machine-like.
10:16:23 <cpressey> So maybe you can compare them, even though that's boring.
10:17:07 <cpressey> Or... well, I'll think about it.
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10:32:17 <cpressey> Maybe tape cells contain pairs of continuations.  But what determines which one is chosen?
10:47:22 <cpressey> In the absence of closures, continuations are basically jump labels. Maybe this would be more like OISC et al.
11:23:33 <cpressey> On a Turing machine, jump labels are state labels.  So, in this, state labels and symbols are the same thing?
11:24:28 <cpressey> "If the state written on the tape is not S3, transition to state specified on the tape and move head left"
11:24:51 <cpressey> You have to use something like "not", obviously.
11:27:53 <cpressey> But then, you are introducing boolean expressions in these conditions.  That's more complexity than a simple table, and it's less pleasing.
11:28:36 <cpressey> But maybe not much, maybe you could still keep it simple somehow.
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12:25:06 <cpressey> "If the state written on the tape is less than the current state, transition to it and write Sn on the tape and move the head L/R. Else if greater, transition to it and write Sm and move L/R. Else transition to Sz and maybe do other stuff."
12:25:23 <cpressey> Which assumes a total order on states but whatever
12:25:47 <cpressey> You can't make an omelette and whatever
12:26:59 <cpressey> I think we can drop "And maybe do other stuff".  So every state's tuple is like (state, direction, state, direction, state).
12:27:52 <cpressey> S1=(S4, L, S5, L, S9), and so forth
12:28:05 <cpressey> I think this might work.  I don't know that it's very interesting.
12:36:00 <cpressey> Wait wait.  Does making two small holes in an egg in order to blow it out count as breaking it?  If not, then it should be possible to make an omelette without breaking any eggs.
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13:13:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70169&oldid=70163 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Interpret PlusOrMinus 1 char at a time */
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14:40:27 <arseniiv> cpressey: an interesting idea!
14:41:31 <arseniiv> what would this turn into if one uses delimited continuations as an inspiration? or (algebraic?) effects?
14:41:33 <longname> Can't you just make one on the bottom and let it all drip out?
14:42:59 <longname> Omletwise, that is, no comment on the esolang idea
14:54:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * JulienDelplanque *  uploaded "[[File:Langton ant.png]]"
14:58:35 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70171&oldid=70125 * JulienDelplanque * (+230) Added Langton ant BP software.
14:58:45 <arseniiv> what would this turn into if one uses delimited continuations as an inspiration? or (algebraic?) effects? => hm I think these aren’t compatible with the spirit that TC is “imperative”
14:59:33 <int-e> "Do this now!" "I'll do it later and get back to you."
15:00:03 <int-e> (delimited by end of working day? :P)
15:00:58 <int-e> (I still don't get delimited continuations.)
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15:01:31 <cpressey> I don't pretend to understand what delimited continuations are or how they work
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16:00:34 <kspalaiologos> Any TI wizards out there? Having problems with TI-Connect, I essentially own a TI83+ and a silverlink, I'm able to transfer programs from the calculator to my PC, but not the other way round
16:01:10 <kspalaiologos> always getting an error on TI side saying "error in xmit"
16:01:28 <kspalaiologos> tried various USB ports, tried clearing ram, tried changing batteries
16:01:52 <kspalaiologos> I removed the drivers too
16:02:02 <kspalaiologos> but installed them soon afterwards again
16:03:09 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: I suspect that you're the most qualified TI calculator wizard here
16:03:27 <kspalaiologos> interesting
16:03:49 <kspalaiologos> I'm tired of BASIC and I'd like some of my assembly programs sent over. I've got them in a correct .8xp format
16:06:08 <wib_jonas> kspalaiologos: does it work if you transfer the same BASIC program back that you have sent from the calculator?
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16:10:06 <kspalaiologos> I did reboot
16:10:17 <kspalaiologos> and I'll check that
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16:13:48 <kspalaiologos> works!
16:13:51 <kspalaiologos> how so
16:15:18 <arseniiv> I have a weird game for y’all: take four points randomly in some area, make a Bézier curve on them, then vary one of the points to make that curve have the least length possible, by hand :o
16:16:51 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I don't pretend to understand what delimited continuations are or how they work => sad :( I think I had some understanding one time, and that required to use a call stack and cut/paste segments of it
16:17:12 <arseniiv> int-e: ^ too
16:17:57 <arseniiv> though I think shift…reset, or was there something less confusing to express them, is nonetheless less clear than effects+handlers
16:19:37 <arseniiv> it’s like `shift` does the work which should be done in another place (cf. try…except for exceptions) and because of that delimited continuations are weird and unhandy. Call/cc is too by virtue of being a `shift` without `reset`
16:19:53 <kspalaiologos> I think I may have compiled my app for ION shell
16:20:01 <kspalaiologos> I changed it to an asm( executable
16:20:09 <kspalaiologos> doesn't work aswell though
16:20:20 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: what’s ION?
16:20:37 <kspalaiologos> TI83+ shell
16:20:50 <arseniiv> ah
16:21:02 <kspalaiologos> I'll try Devpac8x
16:23:17 <kspalaiologos> xaxaxaxa it worked
16:24:06 <kspalaiologos> it doesn't seem to function though
16:24:12 <kspalaiologos> damn
16:25:08 <kspalaiologos> I'm so out of ideas, what could go wrong
16:28:02 <arseniiv> re. shift…reset: a call to `reset` marks a place in the call stack and then when we call `shift`, that marks the other end of the segment which is cut away and packaged into a delimited continuation which is fed, as a kind of closure, to the function passed to `shift`. If `shift` doesn’t happen, so be it, the `reset` mark would perish when we step out of the call to `reset`. Yes this is more or less easy but nonetheless I’d have an effectful pri
16:28:02 <arseniiv> mitives instead of `shift` and handlers instead of both `reset` points and passing a “handler” to `shift`. This is the way with exceptions (`throw` as a handlerless `shift`, `catch` as a handler, though we don’t get a continuation because the effect is the most boring one possible)
16:31:18 <arseniiv> more specifically, because `throw :: exc -(Throws)> Void`, so if we would get a continuation, it would be an uncallable one (a → Void), and so we usually aren’t given one. If I get it right
16:31:39 <arseniiv> I would need to consult a paper on this if someone would be interested in these details
16:32:03 <int-e> we had a link to a paper here a while ago that cast continuations as evaluation contexts
16:32:25 <arseniiv> int-e: delimited too?
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16:32:34 <int-e> yes, delimited
16:32:49 <arseniiv> nice
16:32:51 <int-e> A context being a term with a single hole... it has a root and the hole where you can plug stuff in.
16:33:33 <arseniiv> btw if there’s a formulation more like effectful primitives + handlers instead like shift…reset, I may love delimited continuations back again
16:33:57 <cpressey> OK, so `shift` gets a ... a "delimited continuation" that extends from the `shift` to the `reset`.  What happens when you call this "delimited continuation"?  I mean, what happens when it finishes?
16:34:14 <cpressey> Does it return to somewhere?
16:34:37 <int-e> cpressey: you plug the argument into the place where reset was invoked.
16:34:48 <cpressey> So it returns to the `reset`.
16:34:59 <cpressey> So it's not a continuation at all, it's a regular function.
16:35:02 <arseniiv> but I think it isn’t too possible as there can be many sorts of effects, and we’ll need dynamic typing in the worst case, static in the best, and then we’ll get algebraic effects
16:35:25 <int-e> It's not really true that 'shift' gets a delimited continuation as an argument either. you can perform actual computations inside shift before `reset` is performed. It's all rather messy.
16:35:26 <arseniiv> cpressey: `shift` effectively would return out of a call to `reset`
16:35:45 <arseniiv> (that is, if it will at all)
16:36:05 <int-e> cpressey: And that part (evaluation before reset) makes it much closer to a continuation
16:36:12 <int-e> s/makes/brings/
16:36:24 <kspalaiologos> verdict: z88dk is garbage, omit it if you'd like to keep your sanity, tigcc doesn't target TI83 at all, therefore there is no C compiler for TI83+
16:36:26 <cpressey> Just never mind, I've already given up again
16:36:31 <int-e> you just "fix" the part where continuations never return.
16:36:31 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah `shift` gets a handler which it applies to a d. continuation
16:37:07 <int-e> (because that part makes continuations highly non-modular)
16:37:25 <int-e> but I'm not convinced that delimited continuations are actually modular, so, meh.
16:37:47 <cpressey> But they have so many useful applications, like...
16:38:03 <cpressey> Uh...
16:38:16 <arseniiv> <cpressey> So it's not a continuation at all, it's a regular function. => it’s both; one of the points of delimited continuations is that they are functions and so are composable and easy to do something with
16:38:41 <int-e> cpressey:  Writing papers.
16:39:30 <arseniiv> cpressey: it would be easier with a picture in mind, I think. I read a page somewhere, with simple examples, and now it seems I can succesfully rebuild the understanding from scratch
16:39:48 <arseniiv> I don’t remember what I’ve read though
16:40:49 <cpressey> Maybe I just associate continuations too closely with continuation-passing style.
16:40:49 <int-e> cpressey: I mean they're good for writing papers *about*, of course.
16:41:36 <arseniiv> <int-e> but I'm not convinced that delimited continuations are actually modular, so, meh. => don’t you think that’s because of `shift` taking a handler instead of `reset`? (Because I do)
16:41:41 <int-e> cpressey: Well CPS is special in that the continuations are never duplicated.
16:42:26 <cpressey> int-e: ?  I thought CPS was special because *everything* is a continuation (and everything ends by calling another continuation).
16:43:01 <int-e> Sure, it's also special in that way.
16:43:29 <cpressey> Maybe in practice, you'd also never duplicate a continuation, buuut... maybe there's a counterexample for that too, dunno
16:43:55 <arseniiv> CPS is good to implement, yeah. Nonlinear use of continuations seems to be a big problem in implementing analogous things (like alg. effects), as they get too costly AFAIR
16:44:02 <int-e> You don't do callCC in CPS.
16:45:14 <int-e> (where a continuation escapes itself and then later on you might continue at that point in execution several times... which is just weird.)
16:45:20 <arseniiv> BTW is there a computational framework in which CPS translation is trivial (like, you write it in the first place)
16:45:35 <int-e> CPS is a very sand fragment of what continuations can do.
16:45:42 <int-e> *sane
16:46:10 <kspalaiologos> sdcc as always nails the task
16:46:32 <int-e> `? sdcc
16:46:34 <HackEso> sdcc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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16:50:35 <cpressey> arseniiv: I hesitate to even mention this, but there's a strong similarity between CPS and Haskell's "do" notation
16:51:34 <int-e> ...
16:51:44 <int-e> I think you mean the stuff that the do notation *hides*
16:51:57 <int-e> foo >>= continuation
16:52:01 <cpressey> Right, "what Haskell's 'do' notation desugars to", is what I meant
16:54:57 <cpressey> do { x1 <- action1 ; x2 <- action2 ; mk_action3 x1 x2 }
16:55:02 <cpressey> becomes: action1 >>= (\ x1 -> action2 >>= (\ x2 -> mk_action3 x1 x2 ))
16:56:10 <cpressey> There's obviously some relationship between monads and continuations, and I've even heard people whisper about it on occasion, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it in broad daylight
16:58:09 <cpressey> (I don't think it's Cont. Cont is for people who can't handle CPS without it being wrapped in a monad. Or something.)
17:04:51 <int-e> Cont is more or less CPS, except that it also allows some of the more insane stuff that leads to coroutines and callCC. And I've seen people say that Cont is really implementing delimited continuations rather than full ones. (Obviously there's no way to go beyond the initial runCont. But inside that it felt more like full continuations to me.)
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17:06:36 <int-e> :t lookup
17:06:37 <lambdabot> Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b
17:06:40 <int-e> :t M.lookup
17:06:41 <lambdabot> Ord k => k -> M.Map k a -> Maybe a
17:07:42 <int-e> (I find that argument order counter-intuitve)
17:09:47 <int-e> Mostly because it violates the principle that the argument you're less likely to vary should go first, but also because it's the opposite order from M.! and I'd like to use `lookup` as an infix operator. Sigh.
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17:14:25 <cpressey> The answer https://stackoverflow.com/a/3323122 starts with "The first thing to realize about the continuation monad is that, fundamentally, it's not really doing anything at all." and a comment on it rephrases that as "So basically, bind is just CPS-transformed function application?" and I feel those are getting pretty close to the matter.
17:15:32 <cpressey> I still hate and fear monads, btw
17:16:19 <cpressey> Ruination, I tell you
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17:17:12 <int-e> cpressey: https://wiki.haskell.org/wikiupload/1/1d/Monica_monad_falconnl.png
17:18:18 <int-e> "This is Monica Monad, and she's a Warm Fuzzy Thing. Just giving a face to SPJ's alternative name for monads :)" (from https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas which is huge)
17:22:22 <arseniiv> <cpressey> Right, "what Haskell's 'do' notation desugars to", is what I meant => yeah, this is an interesting point! I didn’t connect these two before
17:29:05 <arseniiv> <int-e> (Obviously there's no way to go beyond the initial runCont. But inside that it felt more like full continuations to me.) => I think I’ve seen `reset` implemented using precisely `runCont` in there
17:30:01 <arseniiv> <int-e> Mostly because it violates the principle that the argument you're less likely to vary should go first, but also because it's the opposite order from M.! and I'd like to use `lookup` as an infix operator. Sigh. => yeah I think I was stunned by that too
17:30:53 <kspalaiologos> I did chess on TI83
17:31:05 <kspalaiologos> and it's only 2 kilobytes
17:32:15 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: how often does it win you? (if you tested enough times)
17:32:24 <kspalaiologos> I just did the openings
17:32:33 <kspalaiologos> it has 6 ply search depth
17:32:46 <kspalaiologos> I beat it up with king's gambit but it's kinda unfair because the computer is materialistic
17:33:00 <kspalaiologos> and when it realises it should start defending instead of greedy taking my pieces it's already too late
17:33:02 <arseniiv> anyway I hadn’t written any chess at all so it should be cool!
17:33:31 <kspalaiologos> the C code size itself is around 800 bytes
17:33:42 <kspalaiologos> but it works, somehow
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17:34:11 <kspalaiologos> next I'll try maybe tetris
17:34:27 <kspalaiologos> I did already pong in BASIC, it was a real torture tho
17:34:36 <kspalaiologos> took me around two boring lectures to finish it
17:35:16 <kspalaiologos> there are some problems tho
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17:41:53 <kspalaiologos> damn it crashed in the middle of the game
17:42:45 <int-e> resign!
17:43:21 <int-e> Well, "rage quit" would be more accurate :P.
17:43:35 <arseniiv> roflol
17:43:45 <arseniiv> rofoldl*
17:45:16 <arseniiv> some haskell designs there associate with something Hebrew, like that double lambda thing, maybe it resembles an aleph…
17:47:37 <arseniiv> > let { the [x] = x; the _ = error "the: there are many or no values" }
17:47:39 <lambdabot>  <no location info>: error:
17:47:39 <lambdabot>      not an expression: ‘let { the [x] = x; the _ = error "the: there are man...
17:48:15 <int-e> lambdabot's not a repl
17:48:18 <int-e> there's @let though
17:48:38 <int-e> and @undef to undo all the damage @let can do
17:49:29 <arseniiv> > the "a"
17:49:31 <lambdabot>  'a'
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17:49:56 <int-e> > the "ä"
17:49:58 <lambdabot>  '\228'
17:50:06 <arseniiv> > the "ä"
17:50:09 <lambdabot>  *Exception: the: there are many or no values
17:50:19 <arseniiv> HAHAHA
17:50:32 <arseniiv> UNICODE IS ILL-DEFINED
17:51:24 <arseniiv> (not that it’s news or that I really think so)
17:51:46 <int-e> I'm surprised.
17:51:54 <int-e> I really think so. :P
17:52:15 <kmc> @let 2 + 2 = 5
17:52:17 <lambdabot>  Defined.
17:52:18 <arseniiv> it’s ill-defined but not so ill-defined as to say that for the sake of it
17:52:19 <kmc> > 2 + 2
17:52:21 <lambdabot>  error:
17:52:21 <lambdabot>      Ambiguous occurrence ‘+’
17:52:21 <lambdabot>      It could refer to either ‘Prelude.+’,
17:52:32 <int-e> > 2 L.+ 2
17:52:34 <lambdabot>  5
17:52:37 <int-e> @undef
17:52:37 <lambdabot> Undefined.
17:52:44 <kmc> qualified infix operators always look Wrong
17:52:55 <int-e> I got used to them.
17:52:57 <arseniiv> int-e: that’s cru… ah, you’ve undone that already
17:53:07 <arseniiv> > :t the
17:53:08 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70172&oldid=70110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+124) /* Datatypes */
17:53:09 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘:’
17:53:10 <kmc> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2
17:53:12 <lambdabot>  5
17:53:19 <kmc> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 1 + 1
17:53:20 <arseniiv> my poor the
17:53:22 <lambdabot>  *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
17:53:24 <kmc> F
17:53:35 <int-e> kmc: I use M.! quite a bit.
17:53:55 <arseniiv> kood emcening
17:54:44 <int-e> > let the x | [x] <- x = x in the []
17:54:46 <lambdabot>  *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-24: Non-exhaustive patterns in function the
17:54:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] to [[User:DINAC]]: got a name
17:55:39 <int-e> Haskell: Oh my god, it's full of syntax!
17:58:16 <int-e> arseniiv: the disappointing thing about your ä is that I couldn't see the difference in the terminal... somebody canonicalized it properly along the way.
17:58:50 <int-e> (irssi, screen, xterm... I don't want to figure out which)
17:59:19 <int-e> arseniiv: But the logs gave you away, and confirmed what the error message already suggested.
18:00:33 <arseniiv> int-e: ah, I didn’t think it would be non-obvious
18:00:52 <kmc> was it actually canonicalized? or just rendered the same way
18:01:12 <kmc> if a font has a character for ä then it should use that for the combining-character version too
18:01:34 <kmc> you can usually tell when the combining sequences are rendered by combining glyphs
18:01:37 <kmc> because they look like ass
18:02:37 <arseniiv> kmc: yeah, frequently with fonts which aren’t up-to-date or whose creators think nobody uses non-accented non-latin
18:03:01 <arseniiv> or when font is okay but the renderer is not
18:03:58 <int-e> kmc: I pasted it into od -tx1
18:04:13 <kmc> ah
18:04:51 <arseniiv> the question is could an Unicode analogue be simpler? (IDK, but I know many people think it could be, but I’m not sure many of them aren’t overlooking things)
18:06:28 <kmc> there's a hot-button question if ever there was one
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18:07:12 <kmc> given all the design requirements I think it couldn't be made that much simpler
18:08:07 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70175 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8303) Better
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18:08:43 <kmc> for example the requirement of round-trip compatibility with all legacy encodings adds a lot of complexity
18:08:46 <kmc> or at least a lot of characters
18:09:00 <kmc> that's why accented characters exist in both combined and combining-sequence versions
18:10:25 <kmc> but round trip compatibility is a nice thing to have because then you can design systems (programming languages, databases, etc) where all text is canonically represented as Unicode and you convert to/from legacy encodings at the edges
18:12:35 <int-e> arseniiv: I wasn't confused about what you did, I just looked for confirmation. Also, it could've been a zero-width space :)
18:16:34 <int-e> > text $ reverse "äa"
18:16:36 <lambdabot>  äa
18:16:53 <int-e> > text $ reverse "äa"
18:16:55 <lambdabot>  aä
18:17:00 <int-e> arseniiv: ^^ :)
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18:20:08 <arseniiv> int-e: nice!!
18:20:45 <arseniiv> <int-e> Also, it could've been a zero-width space :) => a good idea too
18:21:55 <arseniiv> <kmc> that's why accented characters exist in both combined and combining-sequence versions => oh, I didn’t think about the compatibility reason
18:22:39 <arseniiv> Unicode makes more sense now
18:25:38 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/927/
18:26:11 <int-e> Arguably we could get away without emoji. Or having a ton of different math fonts in there.
18:26:20 * int-e shrugs.
18:26:39 <int-e> Of course it's not that easy.
18:26:58 <arseniiv> yeah math fonts are a weird thing
18:27:07 <int-e> If Unicode didn't accept emoji, we'd have vendor-specific encodings for those, because clearly there's a desire to have them embedded in text.
18:27:26 <arseniiv> I wouldn’t say “a mistake” aloud but I’ll be thinking that secretly
18:27:33 <int-e> And I suspect the same kind of reasoning is behind the math fonts.
18:27:56 <arseniiv> but does anyone use them seriously?
18:28:05 <int-e> Otoho, why isn't there a full set of Shogi pieces?
18:28:37 <arseniiv> someone should propose
18:28:58 <int-e> chess: ♔♕♖♗♘♙♚♛♜♝♞♟ shogi: ⛉⛊☖☗
18:29:08 <int-e> seems a bit unfair.
18:30:27 <int-e> (Also the turned Shogi pieces look different from the normal ones to me. Fun.)
18:30:44 <int-e> (But that's a font issue, of course.)
18:31:42 <int-e> "Otoho", hmm. Some Japanese influence there? :P
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19:37:57 <zzo38> For shogi, I think you can just use the kanji, sometimes upsidedown in case of a diagram
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20:18:22 <b_jonas> `olist 1194
20:18:23 <HackEso> olist 1194: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:37:49 <arseniiv> is there a distinction between consistency and soundness in logic? I think I missed that one but now I suspect the first is syntactic and the second is semantic
20:39:55 <spruit11> That should be on wikipedia.
20:40:48 <arseniiv> ah, seems it’s more complicated: a set of formulas is or isn’t consistent, but soundness is a property of a particular logic. Hm I think there still were other uses of these words
20:40:54 <arseniiv> spruit11: fair
20:42:04 <spruit11> The usual distinction is soundness vs completeness.
20:42:32 <spruit11> Consistency is of course also an issue but most systems you'll encounter are consistent.
20:42:58 <spruit11> Unless you're interested in para-consistent logics, the subject doesn't come up a lot.
20:50:09 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70177&oldid=70174 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) Blanked the page
20:51:54 <arseniiv> ah, I think it clarified for me. Consistency of a set Γ is “not (Γ ⊦ ⊥)” and consistency of a logic is the consistency of ∅; and there is no “soundness of Γ” as it’s just not obvious how and for what reason would one define that
21:02:03 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70178&oldid=70148 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) 
21:07:40 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70179&oldid=70175 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Subpages */
21:17:03 <spruit11> That doesn't seem right to me but it's a long time ago for me too.
21:17:40 <spruit11> Uhm, it should be possible for classical logics to state false theorems.. I guess.
21:18:09 <spruit11> I.e., 3=2 is simply false. That doesn't make a logic inconsistent.
21:18:14 <spruit11> Dunno.
21:19:26 <int-e> spruit11: it's okay; {3=2} is an inconsistent set of statements; it doesn't make the logic itself inconsistent
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21:46:04 <spruit11> Right. So the question is what Γ denoted in that statement.
21:46:22 <spruit11> But okay, too long ago. I refer to wikipedia.
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22:09:36 <esowiki> [[DINAC/STDLIB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1821) Created page with "DINAC '''STDLIB''' is a library of functions you can use in your code. They are grouped together for ease of access, and from there the individual functions are arranged alpha..."
22:09:54 <esowiki> [[DINAC/STDLIB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70181&oldid=70180 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) 
22:10:29 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70182&oldid=70179 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) /* Comments */
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23:36:16 <WillGibson> helloooooo
23:41:43 <WillGibson> anyone in saudi
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2020-03-06:

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00:41:15 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70183&oldid=70166 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* D */
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03:01:17 <zzo38> Do you like or hate daylight saving time? I don't like daylight saving time.
03:01:39 <zzo38> Beckett wrote "The costs of DST outweigh the benefits. But if a significant majority of people really want that extra hour of daylight in the summer, just leave the whole country on DST year-round. I prefer standard time, but Ill be happy to compromise if it means not losing an hour every spring."
03:02:17 <zzo38> I agree with Beckett; I also prefer standard time, but permanent DST would still be better than changing it all of the time
03:02:36 <kmc> I agree that changing time zone twice a year is stupid
03:02:50 <kmc> I haven't formed an opinion on which of the two time zones would be better for permanent use
03:04:05 <kmc> zzo38: did you know that Spain changed to Central European Time during WW2, and never changed back, with the result that in western Spain during the summer the sun doesn't set until after 10 PM?
03:04:46 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Spain#/media/File:Tzdiff-Europe-summer.png
03:06:00 <zzo38> I think standard time would be better, for use with sundials, so that it is based on noon/midnight (I don't know what is Beckett's reasoning for preferring standard time). However, either way will work as long as there is agreement what time it is, so that if something is scheduled for "five o'clock" then you will know when it is, and so on.
03:06:18 <zzo38> I did not know that about Spain. Now I do know.
03:25:01 <zzo38> I did not know that about Spain. Now I do know.
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06:10:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/merge]] merge  * Oerjan *  merged [[User:DINAC]] into [[DINAC]] (revisions up to 20200305175450): Fix history after cut and paste move
06:13:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[User:DINAC]]": Remains of cut-and-paste move; history merged into [[DINAC]]
06:14:21 <oerjan> Well that was easier than I thought
06:15:10 <oerjan> only hitch is that the history says nothing about why the name is now DINAC rather than User:DINAC
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06:30:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "#REDIRECT [[User:DINAC]]"
06:35:04 <zzo38> I am working on adding some more stuff to bystand, including a scoring function. (This might be the only NNTP client which uses both a interactive line-oriented interface and SQLite, and may also be the only one to use SQL as its customization language.)
06:38:48 <zzo38> (Of course, these would not be the features everyone wants, but that is OK, because there are many alternatives.)
06:40:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:Voltage2007]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70184 * Voltage2007 * (+98) Created page with "Feel free to add any comments or complaints by editing the page. You ''can'' edit the page, right?"
07:13:34 <esowiki> [[Alchemy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70185&oldid=36118 * Voltage2007 * (+203) 
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09:23:59 <int-e> `"
09:24:03 <HackEso> 1/1:1034) <shachaf> kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
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09:41:49 <cpressey> Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming lingonberry design, development, and deployment
09:44:07 <int-e> huh
09:48:36 <int-e> fungot: do you like bat buns?
09:48:37 <fungot> int-e: and that information may or may not be covered there? like oop, but after a while
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10:06:13 * oerjan read that as bat puns
10:06:22 <oerjan> `? banana
10:06:24 <HackEso> Bananananananana BATMAN!
10:07:25 <int-e> oerjan: you are halfway there
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10:13:23 <oerjan> living on a prayer
10:13:54 <int-e> surely by now you've found the "bad pun".
10:15:36 <oerjan> OKAY
10:16:07 <oerjan> google images gives a split between cupcakes, hairstyle and furrydom
10:16:32 <int-e> I think you're overcomplicating this.
10:18:21 <oerjan> also some rabbits dressed for halloween
10:19:01 <oerjan> definitely. what otherway is there to handle it?
10:19:08 <oerjan> *+ 
10:25:06 <int-e> I'm not complaining.
10:25:24 <int-e> This is free entertainment :P
10:32:22 <cpressey> I still don't know where the NTM came from in that MtG thing.
10:32:49 <cpressey> Probably the same place the bat buns came from, huh.
10:34:41 <int-e> The NTM is in the hypothetical play where the opponent tries to find a way to make the deck deal unbounded damage.
10:35:48 <int-e> And the thing is constructed such that damage is all dealt in the end, so for it to happen, the intermediate simulated TMs must all terminate.
10:36:36 <int-e> So you get the behavior that non-terminating runs are discarded.
10:37:45 <cpressey> This is uncomputable, of course, but that doesn't seem to matter for this hypothetical?
10:38:37 <int-e> Yeah.
10:38:49 <cpressey> OK.
10:38:52 <int-e> The hypothetical is just to show that there is an upper bound.
10:39:10 <int-e> Who cares that we'll never know what it is.
10:40:15 <int-e> But you still have to play the actual busy beaver game to actually deal huge amounts of damage.
10:42:10 <int-e> So basically what's happening here is that they're trying to build an M:tG deck that can deal any conceivable amount of money, for a very wide range of "conceivable".
10:42:54 <int-e> I've done it again.
10:43:20 <int-e> Apparently "amount" and "money" are tightly linked in my brain.
10:43:21 <int-e> :/
11:04:39 <int-e> Woah, xkcd... title=""
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12:03:24 <cpressey> I might be wrong but I also thought there was a limit of something like 125 water clocks, i.e. a MtG hand corresponds to a The Waterfall Model program with 125 water clocks.  In that case, I would say that the maximum damage a MtG hand can do, is literally BBtwm(125), where BBtwm is a version of the busy beaver function adapted to The Waterfall Model.
12:04:02 <cpressey> Literally that number, because that number is literally asking "what's the largest number you can compute with this number of water clocks".
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12:04:35 <int-e> 124, I think
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12:05:09 <int-e> But I'm not sure that's correct.
12:05:51 <int-e> The 124 is what restricts the universal machine that they implement.
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12:07:14 <cpressey> If they want to simulate some other machine with that UTM there's the question of how they get the description of that other machine, into the UTM
12:08:49 <int-e> It's guessed.
12:09:48 <cpressey> By a person, and then encoded as waterclocks?
12:10:06 <int-e> Yes. Or by hypothetical play.
12:10:51 <int-e> So in actual play, you need to find a busy beaver. But for hypothetical play you actually get the busy beaver function as an upper bound in the end.
12:11:32 <cpressey> Er
12:12:32 <int-e> Actual play: The player sets up a terminating TM of bounded size by making corresponding choices. It is run; the number of steps (or something like that) that it runs for turn into damage at the end.
12:13:17 <int-e> Hypothetical play: We consider all the possible TMs. But only those that terminate produce any damage. So there's an upper bound, given by the busy beaver function.
12:13:24 <cpressey> A TM implemented with 124 water clocks can compute BBtwm(124) and no larger, even if said TM is a UTM and someone guesses a good TM for that UTM to simulate
12:13:42 <int-e> cpressey: You're forgetting that the outside is nondeterministic.
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12:14:41 <cpressey> I don't know what that means
12:15:34 <cpressey> You don't need to model "hypothetical play" as an NTM, that's what confuses and bugs me
12:17:15 <int-e> None of this really works without non-determinism.
12:17:33 <int-e> Because then you couldn't externalize the TM definition from the program.
12:18:33 <cpressey> Is there anything really MtG-specific to this problem?  Part of it is that I don't want to guess what rules there are in that game, because I don't play it.
12:19:02 <int-e> As I suggested yesterday, we're doing something like this: NTM A(n): *guess* a TM B of size m. Run B to completion, counting steps. Return number of steps taken.
12:19:52 <int-e> Err, n, not m.
12:20:14 <cpressey> You don't need to "guess" a TM.  Rather just say: let B be the TM of size n which terminates and takes the largest number of steps to do so of any TM of size n.
12:20:17 <cpressey> No NTM needed!
12:20:49 <int-e> And the variant that computes BB(BB(n)): NTM A'(n): *guess* a TM B of size n. Run B to completion, counting steps. Let m be the number of steps taken. *guess* a TM C of size m. Run C to completion, counting steps. Return number of steps taken.
12:22:21 <int-e> cpressey: guessing is essential to escape the fact that the busiest beavers cannot be found effectively.
12:23:04 <cpressey> Why "guess" when you can stipulate?
12:23:18 <int-e> Because then you can't implement it at all.
12:23:42 <cpressey> You want to "implement" hypothetical play?
12:24:05 <int-e> Nobody's *actually* computing busiest beavers here. The busiest beavers just materialize in a proof that the value we get is bounded.
12:24:50 <int-e> But as long as the play is hypothetical, we can actually have those busiest beavers.
12:25:00 <cpressey> "Our hand of cards represents a TM, so the largest damage we can do is a busy beaver number" pretty much follows from the definition of busy beaver function.
12:25:27 <int-e> No.
12:26:06 <int-e> If you absolutely want to avoid the NTM angel (personally I find it tremendously helpful), you have to allow input instead.
12:26:17 <int-e> angle
12:26:27 <int-e> I can't type at all anymore.
12:26:59 <int-e> speling errros evryerhawe...
12:28:13 <int-e> cpressey: And the matter of the fact is that we can have a fixed *N*TM without input of small size that computes the busy beaver function for a much higher number of states.
12:28:31 <cpressey> This is maddening
12:29:13 <int-e> You do know about Universal Turing Machines, right?
12:29:25 <int-e> I need a break.
12:31:38 <int-e> But maybe I should make the idea concrete at least: NTM BB_googol: *guess* a TM A with 10^100 states. Use an UTM to run it to completion, counting steps. Return number of steps taken.
12:32:29 <int-e> And recall that the model of computation here maximizes the output of all the possible runs that terminate.
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12:35:36 <int-e> The corresponding TM would instead have to take the description of the TM of size 10^100 as input. By virtue of having input, it's not bounded by the busy beaver function.
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12:35:54 <cpressey> Are you trying to say that BB numbers on NTMs can be much larger than BB numbers for DTMs?  If so, I don't disagree.
12:37:16 <int-e> I guess so.
12:37:28 <int-e> However, then we're *definitely* not talking about BB for TWM here anymore.
12:37:45 <int-e> But something like BB for M:tG.
12:38:11 <int-e> Anyway, whenever I wrote "busy beaver" I meant DTM ones.
12:41:10 <cpressey> I'm still lost. I think I'll just resign.
12:42:30 <int-e> cpressey: Can you see what that BB_googol thing does and that the result is BB(10^100) where BB is the standard busy beaver function for DTMs?
12:43:40 <cpressey> I thought I did, but I guess not.
12:44:10 <int-e> mm
12:44:25 <cpressey> Or rather: BB_googol is just a NTM for computing BB(10^100) but why do we need that?
12:44:32 <cpressey> We can just say BB(10^100), we know what it means
12:44:54 <cpressey> This NTM doesn't relate to anything in the model we're working with
12:45:17 <int-e> Well the point is that the NTM can be written up as a program, and perhaps translated to a deck of cards.
12:45:41 <cpressey> Not unless the cards are played nondeterministically somehow
12:45:53 <cpressey> From what I understand about MtG, they're not, but I don't play that game
12:46:40 <cpressey> You can talk about "all possibly plays of a hand of cards" without using an NTM
12:46:41 <int-e> The whole point is that BB(10^100) is an upper bound on the possible outputs of terminating runs.
12:46:50 <cpressey> *possible
12:46:53 <int-e> Other than that, BB(10^100) will never materialize.
12:47:31 <int-e> cpressey: The choices that set up the TM are made during play though.
12:47:48 <int-e> So the NTM model matches the actual play much more closely than a TM with input.
12:49:10 <int-e> And of course, in real play, the player will just use the best TM they can prove termination of, not the busy beaver. (And I should probably allow TMs of size less than 10^100 as well :P)
12:49:46 <cpressey> But but but
12:50:11 <cpressey> So frustrating.
12:50:23 <cpressey> BB(n) is a function on a *set of Turing machines*, yes?
12:50:30 <cpressey> All TMs with size n.
12:50:36 <int-e> ?!
12:50:36 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
12:50:43 <int-e> BB(n) is a natural number.
12:50:48 <int-e> given a natural number n.
12:51:29 <int-e> It's the maximum of number of steps taken by any TM of size n (or less, but that's monotonic)
12:51:32 <cpressey> To compute BB(6) you must consider all TMs of size 6.
12:51:41 <int-e> that terminate.
12:52:11 <cpressey> "all TMs of size 6 that terminate" is a set of TMs.
12:52:12 <int-e> It's more like...
12:52:24 <int-e> ...to compute BB(6) you *would have to* consider all TMs of size 6.
12:52:36 <int-e> Because nobody's actually computing it.
12:52:56 <cpressey> Fine, for my present purposes this is nitpicking.
12:53:18 <cpressey> BB(6) is a result *about* a *set* of Turing machines.
12:54:00 <cpressey> All possible plays of a hand of MtG cards also represents a *set* of Turing machines.
12:55:01 <cpressey> All possible plays of a hand of MtG cards of size n, represents a set of Turing machines of size m (where n and m are, let's assume, linearly related.)
12:55:02 <myname> well, all plays of a hand in any card game does
12:55:26 <cpressey> Therefore the maximum damage a hand of MtG cards of size n can do, is proportional to BB(m).
12:55:37 <int-e> m? n?
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12:56:04 <cpressey> Using n MtG cards you can make a TWM program of size m.
12:56:10 <cpressey> is how I'm using those letters.
12:57:16 <myname> i doubt that line of reasoning
12:57:27 <int-e> You keep missing the fact that a program of bounded size can work on arbtirary sized data.
12:57:33 <myname> it fails if you have cards that do exponential damage
12:57:41 <myname> exactly that
12:57:45 <int-e> A singe universal machine can run everything.
12:57:49 <cpressey> int-e: No, the busy beaver function *accounts for that fact*.
12:58:16 <cpressey> BB(6) doesn't say *anything* about how much data any TM of size 6 uses or does not use.
12:58:34 <int-e> cpressey: Then stop saying "the" busy beaver function and define what you're actually using. "The" busy beaver function is for programs without input.
12:58:42 <int-e> cpressey: It starts on an empty tape.
12:58:44 <cpressey> I'm not talking about input.
12:58:45 <int-e> NO INPUT.
12:58:50 <cpressey> I agree, no input!
12:59:09 <int-e> The card games have input in the form of choices the players make.
12:59:10 <cpressey> The machines in BB(6) can use a lot of tape, even though they have no input
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12:59:14 <int-e> This is CRUCIAL.
12:59:37 <cpressey> What kind of choices do the players make?
13:00:00 <int-e> Which cards to play, how much mana to spend on it, how often to repeat a cycle if they enter one...
13:00:03 <int-e> tons of them
13:00:04 <myname> the number of steps does not have to be proportional to the amount of damage
13:00:14 <myname> if one step doubles the damage, you are out of luck
13:00:17 <int-e> Which is why I have all those *guesses* up there.
13:01:53 <cpressey> OK. I don't play MtG, I'm not aware of the kinds of choices players can make.
13:01:58 <int-e> One of the real challenges they face is to make a TM interpreter that does *not* leave any choices to the players (with some constraints, like refusing to resign; the M:tG rules stipulate that a player may resign at any point during the game).
13:03:37 <cpressey> OK.
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13:05:25 <cpressey> I guess there's not much point trying to understand this, unless I want to understand the rules of MtG first, and I don't really have any interest in that
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13:08:00 <int-e> For me the new insight here was that NTMs can compute (and even iterate computations of) the busy beaver function for DTMs.
13:08:59 <int-e> So for this purpose, M:tG is just a peculiar NTM. And I totally ignored TWM.
13:11:08 <cpressey> If there's an NTM that can compute the BB function then there's also an NTM that can solve the halting problem.
13:11:33 <int-e> (As a two-player game with best play, M:tG might actually be a full ATM. I don't know.)
13:12:18 <int-e> Well the halting problem is r.e. even with TMs.
13:12:59 <cpressey> I'm aware of that.
13:13:27 <int-e> And the usual acceptance condition for NTMs is "there is an accepting run", generalizing what you do for r.e. (accepts the input).
13:13:46 <int-e> So yes, that solves the halting problem.
13:15:18 * oerjan measures cpressey's brain pressure then hides behind a rock
13:15:19 <int-e> One real stumbling block for me is to extend this to a functional model of computation, that actually computes a value from the input.
13:15:31 <int-e> s/is/was/
13:16:07 * int-e sets fire to the dynamite stick that somebody placed under that rock earlier.
13:17:03 * oerjan gets incinerated
13:18:03 <cpressey> I have a hard time understanding why someone would think that they could extend "there exists an accepting path" to something that actually finds that path in all cases.
13:18:46 * int-e is beginning to think that cpressey is one of those constructivists he's heard rumors about
13:19:20 <int-e> I mean, it's just a definition.
13:21:29 <cpressey> I guess my brain pressure is just too high. Occupational hazard of us constructivists, don't ya know.
13:22:27 <int-e> We can do it mathematically (inside a proof, say). We can't do it in practice.
13:23:26 <int-e> Using classical logic, obviously, like most people.
13:24:29 <cpressey> It would still seem that you're simply saying something like, the maximum damage you can deal in a hand of n MtG cards, is BBN(n), where BBN(x) is the busy beaver number for an *NTM* with x states.
13:27:00 <cpressey> OK, BBN(m) where m is some function of n.
13:27:03 <int-e> It's more bounding BBN(n) from below by (iterated) BB(m) where both iteration and m depend on the concrete n-sized program.
13:28:10 <myname> the amount of damage is obviously bounded by BBN(f(n)) for a function like f(n) = infty
13:28:30 <int-e> myname: Hey we're having a serious discussion here.
13:33:01 <int-e> cpressey: You're not wrong, there is something resembling BBN(n) for a fixed n here somewhere, namely in the task of finding an M:tG deck that allows dealing a huge amount of damage while having an upper bound on that damage.
13:34:34 <int-e> cpressey: But the point where the discussion started was that they wanted to find an M:tG deck, that is, an NTM, that actually computes BB(m) or BB(BB(m)) for another fixed m instead, so that they had something easier to work with: Busy beavers (for some deterministic model of computation that's easy to implement a universal machine for in TWM).
13:35:18 <cpressey> OK. "NTM" and "actually compute" do not go together. That's my first problem.
13:35:34 <int-e> You can define BB(n) but you can't compute it.
13:35:59 <int-e> The NTM semantics are something you can define, not compute.
13:36:08 <int-e> I should probably not have used "actually" there.
13:36:21 <int-e> s/actually computes/defines/
13:37:53 <int-e> You still need the busy beavers (not necesaarily the best ones) to actually play the game and deal some damage.
13:38:10 <cpressey> I think it is a bad idea to model a hand of cards an as NTM. I think it is better to model (hand of cards + player's strategy) as a DTM.
13:38:32 <int-e> Well, and I disagree completely.
13:40:22 <cpressey> Well...
13:41:16 <int-e> I honestly believe that NTM (and ATM for the full game) is the most natural model for this. I don't want to mess things up by restricting the players to a computable strategy. Not that it matters here... there are only finitely many choices to be made anyway.
13:41:39 <cpressey> Ha
13:42:02 <cpressey> Are there really only a finite many choices that a player can make when playing their hand?
13:42:17 <int-e> In this particular case? Yes.
13:42:18 <cpressey> If so then I object even more strongly to modelling that as an NTM
13:42:25 <cpressey> This is just combinatorics.
13:42:34 <cpressey> Occam would prefer you not complicate it unnecessarily, and so would I.
13:42:55 <int-e> Yes, don't model choices that happen on the fly as input, defying causality.
13:43:14 <int-e> Use the proper model for that, which is non-determinism.
13:44:18 <int-e> This may be our main disagreement really... I think non-determinism is *simple*.
13:45:05 <int-e> Yes, you get a tree of computations rather than a line. But that's all. Trees are simple.
13:48:05 <int-e> And "just combinatorics" -- in either case you still get to the point where the model of computation solves the halting problem for you.
13:48:42 <int-e> By simply disregarding non-terminating paths of execution (inputs for which your program doesn't terminate)
13:51:26 <cpressey> It seems to me that you would rather introduce an NTM that represents selecting all possible finite combinations from a finite set, than merely consider all possible finite combinations from a finite set, in your explanation, that's all.
13:52:35 <int-e> Yes. At least in this particular context.
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13:53:10 <cpressey> I would call that overkill, not just because it's nondeterministic, but also because it's a TM.
13:53:17 <int-e> (I could argue against the idea that I introduce the NTM... the NTM is already present in the game, to my mind. But meh.)
13:54:12 <int-e> Playing 13 No Need To Argue.ogg.
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14:51:31 <cpressey> If you have an NTM that "guesses" an arbitrary DTM description and writes it to a tape, then uses a UTM to simulate that DTM and "produce" its result as an integer, there is no upper bound to the integer the NTM can "produce"; it only needs to "guess" bigger DTMs to get bigger numbers.
14:53:32 <cpressey> On the other hand, if there is a limit to the set of DTMs it can "guess" - if they are drawn from a finite set - then you don't need to talk about "guessing" them and then simulating them at all - you just have an enumeration of DTMs.
15:08:56 <int-e> cpressey: But I /prefer/ to do it by guessing.
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15:12:37 <Taneb> Are you two doing the thing where you argue about a fundamentally unimportant detail while agreeing about all the important bits?
15:14:02 <cpressey> I think I disagree about some of the actual conclusions too, but it's hard enough to find out exactly what they are
15:14:44 <cpressey> Wouldn't BBN(x) be infinite for large enough x?
15:15:15 <esowiki> [[DINAC/STDLIB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70186&oldid=70181 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+223) /* Arithmetic */
15:16:03 <Taneb> What is BBN?
15:16:15 <cpressey> Busy-beaver number for NTMs.
15:16:30 <Taneb> Where x is the number of states?
15:16:41 <cpressey> Yes
15:16:54 <Taneb> How would BBN(x) be > BB(x)?
15:17:10 <cpressey> The NTM has no limit to the number of states it can "guess" a DTM description to have, then it can simulate it with a UTM
15:17:30 <cpressey> So probably BBN(10) is infinite
15:17:51 <cpressey> If not 10, then some fairly small number, in the scheme of things
15:18:48 <Taneb> Hmm, wouldn't the definition of the busy beaver function preclude machines that might not halt, and hence preclude any that could be infinite
15:20:08 <cpressey> So probably BBN(10) is ω, is that better
15:21:05 <Taneb> I don't think I understand how you're defining BBN
15:22:20 <Taneb> I can't see how ω could even be in the codomain of BBN
15:22:59 <cpressey> OK. BB(x) is the largest number of steps any terminating DTM with x states takes before terminating. BBN(x) is the largest number of steps any terminating execution path of an NTM with x states.
15:23:30 <cpressey> *states has. Excuse my awkward phrasing.
15:23:42 <Taneb> Ah, I had taken BBN(x) to be the lagest number of steps of any terminating execution path of an NTM with x states that terminates in all execution paths
15:24:19 <Taneb> Because otherwise, BBN(2) is undefined, I think
15:25:58 <Taneb> Take a non-deterministic turing machine with states (I, H), and transitions I -> {1RI,1RH}
15:26:08 <Taneb> This has a terminating execution path for every natural number
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15:31:08 <int-e> cpressey: BBN(n) is cleverly defined to exclude not only non-terminating machines but also those that have unbounded results.
15:32:20 <cpressey> "they wanted to find an M:tG deck, that is, an NTM, that [defines] BB(m) or BB(BB(m)) for another fixed m instead, so that they had something easier to work with: Busy beavers (for some deterministic model of computation that's easy to implement a universal machine for in TWM)." My problem with this is in two parts:
15:33:21 <cpressey> 1) If they only have 125 waterclocks at their disposal to make this machine in TWM, then their damage is limited to BB(125) (or something proportional to it)
15:33:49 <int-e> You're ignoring the starting values of the clocks?
15:35:53 <cpressey> 2) If they use these 125 waterclocks to make a UTM, and then feed it some kind of TM description as part of how they play their hand, then I need an explanation why they are not allowed to give it an arbitrarily large TM description that produces BB(x) for arbitrarily large x, i.e. it would appear there is no upper bound at all.
15:36:32 <int-e> The x needs to be encoded in the deck, obviously.
15:36:43 <cpressey> Why obviously?
15:36:57 <int-e> Because otherwise, as you say, things would be unbounded.
15:37:14 <cpressey> How do we know they're not unbounded?
15:37:32 <int-e> Which is specifically forbidden by their task description... if the deck produces unbounded damage, it doesn't qualify.
15:38:06 <int-e> Which links back to "BBN(n) is cleverly defined to exclude not only  non-terminating machines but also those that have unbounded results."
15:38:15 <cpressey> Why does x need to be encoded in the deck as opposed to the choices that the player takes when they play their cards?
15:38:37 <int-e> ...
15:38:46 <int-e> We're running in circles here.
15:38:59 <int-e> You just asked that question, I just answered it.
15:39:03 <int-e> Nothing has changed in the meantime.
15:39:37 <cpressey> I guess there's something I still don't understand about how MtG is played.
15:39:38 <int-e> The encoding may be indirect, of course. In particular, x may be something like BB(10).
15:41:11 <cpressey> I don't even care about this, it's just frustrating that, every time I say something, hoping to get more clarity, I just get responses that seem to make it more opaque.
15:41:37 <Taneb> cpressey: I think you might have misinterpreted the nature of the puzzle
15:42:11 <Taneb> Or I have misinterpreted the nature of your complaint
15:42:48 <int-e> What frustrates *me* is that you seem to understand everything about this and still are, obviously, confused, and I have no idea what you are confused about.
15:43:58 <cpressey> I don't see how how n cards could *possibly* generate the number BB(BB(n)).
15:44:13 <cpressey> I can see how they could generate the number BB(n), yes.
15:44:30 <cpressey> But you see, I don't see how they could generate any number *larger* than it.
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15:45:05 <cpressey> Unless it's something like: n cards generates BB(n), then BB(n) *plays* of those cards, generates BB(BB(n)).  Something like that.
15:45:20 <int-e> BB_BB_googol: Guess a TM A of size 10^100. Run it to its conclusion, counting steps. Let m be the number of steps taken. Guess a TM B of size m. Run it to its conclusion, counting steps. Return the number of steps.
15:45:41 <int-e> (You can make the TMs your input. I don't care.)
15:46:07 <int-e> You discard all non-terminating runs, and take the maximum length of the terminating ones.
15:46:19 <int-e> That length is BB(BB(10^100)).
15:46:30 <int-e> s/length/value returned/
15:46:34 <int-e> (sorry)
15:46:52 <cpressey> "Guess a TM A of size 10^100" - May I ask to what object in the game of MtG does this A correspond?
15:47:20 <int-e> Some number of creatures of a particular creature type.
15:47:28 <int-e> Creature types === counters in TWM.
15:47:43 <cpressey> OK, can I ask another question/
15:47:47 <int-e> It's not a perfect analogy.
15:48:12 <int-e> I really prefer to think of this in terms of (N)TMs, because that's far more familar territory to me.
15:48:33 <cpressey> I can guess a TM of size 10^100.  Can I guess a TM of size 10^10000 instead?
15:48:50 <int-e> Sure. That would be a different NTM though.
15:49:26 <cpressey> Can I guess an arbitrarily large TM?
15:49:30 <int-e> No.
15:49:34 <cpressey> Why not?
15:49:42 <int-e> That's the whole point of building that bound into the NTM.
15:50:15 <cpressey> May I ask, what object in the game of MtG the NTM corresponds to?
15:50:46 <int-e> You have given the explanation above: If you /could/ guess a TM of arbitrary size, there would be no maximum result (the results would be unbounded), and we don't want that.
15:51:00 <int-e> The NTM is the deck of cards.
15:51:07 <cpressey> Wait what?
15:51:16 <cpressey> I thought we were trying to find out what the maximum result *is*.
15:51:42 <int-e> Find a deck of card whose maximum damage is bounded, but really really big.
15:52:03 <int-e> The damage is all done in the end, and corresponds to the number computed by the NTM.
15:52:19 <cpressey> The answer seems to be that you can find decks of cards that do arbirarily large finite damage.
15:52:33 <int-e> But the deck size is bounded.
15:52:35 <cpressey> I was pretty sure the constraint was that we had to avoid *infinite* damage.
15:53:08 <cpressey> What is the deck size bounded by?
15:53:14 <int-e> 60.
15:53:39 <int-e> Plus a side-board of, what, 10 cards? Something like that.
15:53:59 <int-e> But that's all so awfully M:tG-specific.
15:54:29 <cpressey> OK, so you're modelling this 60-card deck as an NTM with 60 states (roughly speaking).
15:54:56 <cpressey> But there is some reason this 60-state NTM can't guess (and then simulate) arbitrarily large DTMs.
15:55:00 <cpressey> But I'm not seeing that reason.
15:55:19 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-03-02.html#lNe
15:55:48 <int-e> cpressey: The bound (whatever it is) must be enforced by the NTM.
15:57:43 <int-e> cpressey: I doubt that the number of states corresponds to the number of cards in any nice fashion. But I also don't really care about that aspect of the problem.
15:58:28 <int-e> My interest is really this: My initial reaction to the idea that you can iterate the BB function was that this can't be done. No way. Then I homed in on alternation as a possibility, and then I realized that plain non-determinism is enough.
15:59:12 <int-e> Which was a new insight for me. And I'm still enjoying that.
15:59:41 <int-e> All the TWM and M:tG details... meh I just assume they work out somehow.
16:00:00 <int-e> And if they don't work out, that's no skin off my nose either.
16:00:23 <cpressey> Whhhh
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16:04:38 <cpressey> "if there is a line that does more damage we will take it", but "if that amount of damage is unbounded, the deck is disqualified.", so basically this is ruling out any sequence that grows forever.
16:05:19 <int-e> Yes. This is the same as ruling out an NTM that produces unbounded results.
16:09:33 <cpressey> OK, that makes sense I guess.
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16:15:21 <cpressey> I can't quite convince myself of it. 
16:20:59 <cpressey> "Let m be the number of steps taken. Guess a TM B of size m." ... the NTM has to allow guessing a TM as large as m, without knowing how big m is beforehand, but also has to prevent guessing arbitrarily large TMs.
16:21:42 <int-e> A is *deterministic*
16:22:09 <int-e> So it either fails to terminate (and we're good, the run will be discarded) or produce a fixed result.
16:22:19 <int-e> Same for B.
16:22:23 <cpressey> Back up
16:22:43 <int-e> m is bounded by BB(10^100).
16:23:06 <cpressey> I *understand* that A is deterministic; in fact I am assuming that the NTM correctly guessed the DTM which computes BB(10^100).
16:23:37 <int-e> So in that case m equals BB(10^100) by the point we're guessing B.
16:24:25 <int-e> So that's not arbitrarily large anymore?
16:24:33 <cpressey> Okay.
16:24:49 <int-e> (Though obviously so insanely large that it makes no difference in practice.)
16:25:16 <int-e> (Where "practice" refers to the scenario where we actually play out one of those runs with concrete choices for A and B)
16:29:51 <cpressey> OK, so there's a deck of 60 cards where there's a possible play that writes a TM A of size 10^100 to the tape and then simulates it to obtain m = BB(10^100) and then writes another TM, this one of size m, to the tape, and then simulates it to obtain BB(m), i.e. BB(BB(10^100)), and then does that much damage.
16:30:39 <int-e> Yeah, that's the mental model I have of this.
16:30:40 <cpressey> I think I understand it now.
16:31:32 <int-e> I'm hazy about the actual models of computation (TWM is involved, but it's used to implement a universal machine, and that may be something entirely else still).
16:31:40 <cpressey> Now that I have explained it to myself in terms that do not involve an NTM.
16:33:01 <int-e> The important bits to me is that the outer model is non-deterministic (you prefer input, we disagree, let's not reopen that discussion), and that the innner thing that the BB() function is based on is deterministic (so that non-termination of the simulated machine manifests as non-termination of the whole thing).
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16:55:29 <cpressey> You *could* do the steps the other way around. You could write a TM B of size BB(10^100) to the tape and simulates it to produce BB(BB(10^100)), then write a TM A that computes BB(10^100) to obtain m, then aborts if TM B consists of more than m states (but it doesn't so you're ok and you output BB(BB(10^100)).)
16:56:15 <cpressey> I'm not sure why I mention this.
16:57:25 <Taneb> (I don't get how people are computing BB(BB(x)) given BB(x))
16:58:01 <tromp> that's not possible:(
16:58:44 <cpressey> They're basically getting very, very lucky, if you want to think of it as something that could actually happen.
16:59:33 <tromp> a lucky NTM of 1 or 2 states can also output BB(10^100) :)
17:01:51 <cpressey> For obscure reasons, we also want to also disallow NTMs that can produce arbitrarily large numbers.
17:04:14 <cpressey> Details are available in the scrollback, if they can be extracted from the painful misunderstandings.
17:05:30 <cpressey> I'm still digesting it, myself.
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17:13:05 <int-e> cpressey: It's not all that obscure... it's fairly easy to do unbounded damage in M:tG.
17:13:30 <cpressey> For reasons that will be obscure to anyone who doesn't care much about the MtG angle.
17:13:59 <int-e> (Use any of https://hobbylark.com/card-games/best-infinite-mana-combos-mtg to fuel a Fireball, which does X damage for 1 red and X other mana.)
17:14:44 <int-e> cpressey: But it also makes sense to do that when trying to define the busy beaver function for NTMs ;)
17:15:08 <int-e> (Because what would the point be if the value can be infinite...)
17:17:16 <int-e> cpressey: The reason is not that dissimilar to that 2-state NTM you had earlier... non-determinism means you can expect to turn an infinite loop into an unbounded one very easily.
17:18:05 <int-e> And for some reason the M:tG designers don't consider infinite loops to be a design flaw in the cards... as long as they either don't do anything useful, or are expensive to set up.
17:19:17 <cpressey> Fine, how would you like to me say it?
17:19:40 <cpressey> tromp: For reasons that int-e will be happy to explain, we want to avoid NTMs that produce arbitrarily large numbers.
17:20:04 <cpressey> Have a good weekend.
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21:40:21 <zzo38> I think they should add a dot command in the SQLite command-line interface for editing the definition of a view or trigger using an external editor.
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22:38:52 <zseri> I think it would be interesting to invent a programming language which supports a metatype above "type kinds". ref = https://github.com/YZITE/rfcs/blob/master/proglangs/0004-typelang.md
23:11:22 <arseniiv> posted a thing to ##math to no avail, maybe #esoteric-setminus-##math people will make something of it:
23:11:22 <arseniiv> hey hey you probably know that solutions to ordinary differential equations like P dx + Q dy = 0 are integral curves. The previous night it occurred to me that one could take 2-forms (and higher ones) instead of 1-forms and make an equation like α := P dx∧dy + Q dy∧dz + R dz∧dx = 0 whose solutions would be “integral surfaces” (resp. submanifolds of higher dimension). But I haven’t seen an equation like that anywhere. Do you know why?
23:11:22 <arseniiv> the thing doesn’t seem ill-defined: as with integral curves, every point P of an integral surface should have a tangent bivector A such that α(P, A) = 0. One can also think about nonlinear higher-order equations, again in the same way as for the ordinary “1-form equations”. WDYT?
23:11:56 <b_jonas> differential equations question? no thanks
23:13:10 * arseniiv cries silently
23:21:02 <zseri> (@arsentiv) I don't really know how to interpret your question, but that might be because I don't really know how to translate your "textification" of integral formulas back into the standard notation. hm. ref = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_integral
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23:56:05 <arseniiv> hehe those weren’t integrals, those were differential form fields (equated to zero), but there is a hidden argument to which they are applied to: a vector field, or a bivector field in the second case. So a solution will consist of points with tangent (bi)vectors sticking out of them, and as fields by usual definition are smooth, these points would (in most cases?) make a curve, a surface etc.
23:56:57 <arseniiv> zseri: if you are reading logs ← here’s a mention to simplify the search
23:57:55 <arseniiv> also a person said me that in general there should probably be jets instead of forms
23:58:46 <arseniiv> but I don’t know if they cover k-forms for k ≥ 2

2020-03-07:

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00:08:55 <zzo38> Wikipedia mentions some things they try to do to reduce draws (especially short draws).
00:09:03 <zzo38> (in chess)
00:22:07 <zzo38> Something I thought of is to use "goulash rules" after a drawn game. This is similar to what FIDE suggested, although in addition to faster time controls, draws by agreement and repetition and 50 moves are disallowed in the goulash game with my idea, and also a few moves (but not the first few moves; rather, moves coming much later) are decided at random, and if it is still a draw, the draw stands.
00:25:17 <zzo38> (I do not believe draws should be eliminated entirely, just to be reduced a bit.)
01:09:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Mgaudet9 *  New user account
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02:23:14 <imode> have there been any esolangs or programming languages based on the idea of L-systems? where your "instruction stream" is generated according to a string rewriting system?
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02:40:42 <zzo38> I don't know; maybe. I don't really remember, either.
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10:56:58 <rain1> hey whats new
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14:43:28 <ais523> my attempt at explaining the MTG busy beaver thing:
14:43:38 <ais523> the deck is designed so that it has two possible modes to be played in
14:44:18 <ais523> one mode allows the player to choose one of a finite (but very large) number of strategies, this produces an output which is a (deterministic) Waterfall Model program
14:44:49 <ais523> the number of waterclocks that can be used is bounded at 124; the size of the zeroing triggers is not inherently bounded, but it has a maximum because there are only finitely many strategies available
14:45:16 <ais523> the other mode deterministically simulates the Waterfall Model program to completion; if it is not a terminating program, the game immediately ends in a draw
14:45:45 <ais523> if you just have these two modes and nothing else, the largest possible output you can get is thus a busy beaver function (although not a cleanly defined one)
14:46:12 <ais523> now, what the players involved are looking to do is to create a deck that can be switched between these modes finitely many times
14:46:41 <ais523> so, first a player chooses, by their strategy, one of the possible Waterfall Model programs
14:46:52 <ais523> then, that program is simulated, and (if it halts) produces an output
14:47:21 <ais523> now, we go back to the first mode again, and use the output of that program as a bound on the size of the zeroing triggers of a second Waterfall Model program
14:48:14 <ais523> so we still have finitely many options here, but the number of options is now bounded by a busy beaver number that we calculated earlier
14:48:19 <ais523> repeat finitely many times
14:48:42 <ais523> the maximum possible final result is an iterated busy beaver number; however, due to busy beavers being uncomputable, it's not known what path you would have to take to reach that result
14:53:05 <b_jonas> can you really have a deck of Magic cards that can build Waterclock simulations but nothing slightly better?
14:54:07 <b_jonas> also, wait, what busy beavers?
14:54:20 <b_jonas> if the zeroing triggers aren't bounded, then can't you just choose an arbitrarily large number?
15:13:07 <b_jonas> fungot, is the lifetime warranty in the base price for your immortality serum, or do you charge extra?
15:13:07 <fungot> b_jonas: isn't that roughly how your average server app works? just out of memory, then i wont be using motif as a template
15:17:14 <ais523> b_jonas: the way it works is that the deck generates large numbers some resource (e.g. mana) using a more traditional non-infinite combo, then that resources bounds the zeroing triggers by limiting how much time you have to set them up
15:18:23 <ais523> also, the key idea is to create a deck that can construct a Waterclock simulation, but has no instant speed effects that can be used to interfere with the simulation while it's running, and no way to create a gamestate where trigger stacking order is relevant
15:18:23 <ais523> that last part seems to be the hard part
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15:21:20 <ais523> so it's not so much about "nothing slightly better" as "the only loops that aren't clearly bounded have no way to produce output if they're infinite, and no way to manually interrupt them"
15:21:21 <int-e> ais523: shouldn't the setup also include the initial values of the counters?
15:21:48 <int-e> If not, then my mental model of TWM isn't right.
15:21:57 <int-e> counters -> clocks
15:22:13 <ais523> int-e: oh, yes
15:22:46 <ais523> but it turns out that that's mostly irrelevant because you can use a zeroing trigger to set the initial values
15:23:03 <ais523> so even when restrictions on the initial values exist, they typically turn out not to matter
15:23:43 <int-e> Ah.
15:24:31 <int-e> Well, I thought the way to go about this was to work with a fixed TWM program that implements a universal machine. But maybe not.
15:25:01 <ais523> I think the idea is, as long as we know that at least one universal machine exists within our given bounds
15:25:03 <int-e> (And, upon reflection, probably not, because then encoding 124 triggers in the deck itself becomes infeasible.)
15:25:08 <ais523> then we know that we have some sort of busy beaver being calculated
15:25:31 <ais523> which is /either/ a busy beaver for the universal machine in question, /or/ a busy beaver for some other TWM program that fits witihin the bounds in question
15:25:46 <ais523> either way, it's a finite number by the definition of busy beavers, and it's bounded from below by the busy beaver for our particular UTM
15:25:48 <int-e> Yeah.
15:30:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70205&oldid=70194 * Ais523 * (+936) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */ the alternate version is not obviously either TC or non-TC
15:38:13 <b_jonas> what would be really crazy is if you could make a deck that not only can't make infinite loops, but where the computation (say the waterfall matrix values) are limited by some resource in the deck itself, like it can use numbers up to 2**200 if you have 200 spare Islands in the deck. deck size is limited to something between 100 and 5000 cards by the rule that you have to be able shuffle your deck 
15:38:19 <b_jonas> without assistance. the number of players might not be limited, but I don't think there are tournament games with more than 8 players or more than 8 decks.
16:07:11 <MTGBusyBeaver> Well we encountered a problem with our setup that currently makes iterating very difficult, but otherwise yes
16:08:28 <MTGBusyBeaver> The deck size is limited to 60, and we can use numbers up to around 10^^^^55
16:08:45 <b_jonas> what limits deck size to 60?
16:09:10 <int-e> b_jonas: arbitrariness
16:09:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> the rules, otherwise we could have a deck of an arbitrary number of relentless rats
16:09:40 <b_jonas> ais's deck is limited to 60 so that it can be more consistent in realistic games
16:10:11 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: no, not an arbitrary number. like I said above, there's a limit in the rules. It's just higher than 60 cards.
16:11:02 <ais523> b_jonas: MTGBusyBeaver's aiming for an entry in a competition that has specific rules, one of which is a maximum deck size of 60
16:11:04 <MTGBusyBeaver> his TM is actually trying to be SB only, so he can wish for the whole thing from a normal deck
16:11:07 <int-e> . o O ( Future M:tG players will be bred to have extra large hands. )
16:11:56 <MTGBusyBeaver> the shuffling limit is a soft limit, and hard to properly bound.
16:12:46 <int-e> What's "SB"?
16:12:46 <b_jonas> I see
16:12:50 <MTGBusyBeaver> you'll get people coming along saying "oh but i can shuffle 5001 cards"
16:13:15 <b_jonas> but those rules don't include DMM's special rule about infinite loop, because nobody knows how that would apply to setting up a simulation like this?
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16:13:31 <MTGBusyBeaver> SB=Sideboard
16:13:33 <b_jonas> int-e: sideboard
16:13:58 <MTGBusyBeaver> which is 15 extra cards you can bring that dont get shuffled into your main deck for game one
16:14:04 <b_jonas> int-e: no, those of us with large hands prefer the Rubik's cube
16:14:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> you can add/exchange them with the main deck or fetch them with cards like cunning wish
16:14:42 <int-e> b_jonas: I have an 8x8x8 one which I wish I had larger hands for. The other sizes I have are just fine :)
16:16:45 <b_jonas> int-e: also no because, outside of crazy exercises like this, you usually want your deck to be as small as the rules allow or close to it
16:16:48 <int-e> b_jonas: So, to put numbers to that, (8.2cm)^3 is uncomfortably big. (6.7cm)^3 (that's my 6x6x6 one) is fine.
16:17:02 <b_jonas> which is 60 cards for most constructed format, 100 cards for a few other constructed formats
16:17:19 <b_jonas> I see
16:20:08 <b_jonas> wait, 10^^^^55? that's rather big. and you hope to fit a universal computer within the same deck as the combo that does that?
16:20:22 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes
16:20:59 <b_jonas> wow
16:21:21 <MTGBusyBeaver> 10^^^^55 is a lot smaller than our other strategies, but the largest that looks to be compatible with the (Very restrictive) TM setup
16:21:33 <ais523> if you can use all 60 cards you can do things like compute the Ackermann function
16:22:42 <MTGBusyBeaver> Yeah, we have had Ackermann beating decks in standard for 3 years in a row now.
16:24:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> and vintage could already get quite beyond that, requiring the "fast growing hierarchy" notation
16:24:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> but BB functions are even better than that
16:25:13 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: and you're allowed to customize the deck of only one player for this, right? multiple players lets you separate different mechanisms with less risk of interactions much more easily.
16:25:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes our opponent's deck is 60 wastes
16:25:36 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm thinking not really about the number of cards here, but the interactions between the two machines
16:26:10 <ais523> b_jonas: the basic trick is that the whole deck is sorcery speed apart from the triggers that build the waterfall
16:26:51 <b_jonas> and the waterfall macnine program would execute without resolving?
16:26:59 <b_jonas> also I'll have to reread the older logs about this later
16:27:03 <b_jonas> I was just too busy during the week
16:27:43 <MTGBusyBeaver> it executes to completion without (meaningful) choices by either player
16:28:12 <ais523> except inasmuch as Arcbond is involved, which always struck me as a potential weak point
16:28:40 <MTGBusyBeaver> what do you mean?
16:28:56 <MTGBusyBeaver> what we choose to put arc bond on?
16:30:01 <ais523> trigger stacking
16:31:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> Yeah, we did run into a propblem there, but we managed to find a way to force all of the bishop of wings on the opponent's side
16:31:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> (this is why we arent taking about iterating BB(BB(BB...)))) right now)
16:32:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> that way triggers are forced to get stacked in APNAP order and arcbond is our trigger
16:32:59 <MTGBusyBeaver> so it has to go below all of their death triggers
16:34:51 <ais523> oh, neat
16:34:52 <ais523> that's the same solution I used in my sideboard turing machine
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16:35:27 <ais523> but /forcing/ it, rather than making it an option, is pretty impressive
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16:36:48 <MTGBusyBeaver> we bounce/replay/copy Dowsing dagger to give them a bunch of plants
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16:37:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> then Mirrorweave them to Dralnu's crusades and Bishop of Wings
16:37:49 <ais523> might there be a way to set up a nondeterministic loop using the original Bishop of Wings on your own side?
16:38:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> but in order to do damage to kick the machine off, we need to sacrifice our bishop
16:38:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> originally via Goblin grenade and no other creatures
16:38:58 <ais523> well, it doesn't have to be the same machine
16:39:12 <ais523> I guess if that's the only way to set off /any/ potentially infinite loop…
16:39:54 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, its fortunate that opalescence does not grant a creature type
16:41:15 <ais523> so the idea is that the deck cannot play any more than 1 creature that has a creature type (Bishop of Wings) on its own side
16:41:18 <ais523> but can play arbitrarily many on its opponent's side
16:41:30 <ais523> and any way to start a loop requires a sacrifice of a creature with a creature type
16:42:38 <MTGBusyBeaver> we have gotten a bit beyond that as bishop of wings only trigges for things on its controller's side
16:43:23 <MTGBusyBeaver> and not arbitrarily many, only 10^^^^55 or so.
16:43:51 <ais523> ah right
16:44:11 <ais523> fwiw, optimising the number /inside/ the BB(…) hadn't really crossed my mind
16:44:34 <ais523> because the BB function is so much larger than anything you can describe in a reasonable number of charactesr
16:44:46 <MTGBusyBeaver> it is much much less important
16:45:09 <MTGBusyBeaver> than actually getting BB numbers
16:46:21 <ais523> anyway, I saw a suggestion that maybe limiting this thing to 12 waterclocks would help
16:46:23 <ais523> is that still the case? because I've wanted to make a "small" TCness construction for The Waterfall Model for a while
16:46:32 <ais523> and if that number would be helpful, it gives me a target
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16:49:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> we could probably go even a bit higher than that if we need to, but yes 12 is the limit of number of copies of a single enchantment without shenanigans, (4xoriginal, 4x copy enchantment, 4x Mirrormade)
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16:51:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> really 13 as the halting clock does not need a dralnu's crusade
16:53:17 <ais523> anyway, I need to go, but I'll keep thinking about this
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16:53:31 <MTGBusyBeaver> also helpful would be proving whether the "growing" variant is TC
16:54:58 <MTGBusyBeaver> I suspect it is not, but my initial attempts at proving that have been flawed.
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17:58:04 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70206&oldid=70164 * Hanzlu * (+23) 
18:01:47 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70207&oldid=70206 * Hanzlu * (+17) 
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18:06:19 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70208&oldid=70207 * Hanzlu * (+96) 
18:12:53 <zzo38> SQLite documentation mentions four kind of "application file formats", being fully custom, pile of files, wrapped pile of files, and SQLite. But Microsoft Office documents are actually a wrapped pile of files (although using a container format which isn't used much elsewhere, although 7-Zip can open it). There may be other formats nested, too.
18:13:13 <zzo38> And then, there is stuff such as JSON, XML, etc
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19:01:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, Microsoft Office uses zip as the container format
19:02:41 <b_jonas> and the contents are mostly XML files, except it stores images in ordinary formats like jpeg
19:04:55 <zzo38> Perhaps the new version does; the old version uses a different container format, and the contents are a custom format.
19:07:41 <b_jonas> oh, the old file formats are custom and optimized for MS Office's internals
19:07:48 <b_jonas> and for slow computers
19:10:32 <int-e> . o O ( Let's crash and pretend the resulting core dump is a file format. )
19:13:29 <olsner> . o O ( in addition to unexec, emacs also allows you to save files as "plain text" )
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19:30:56 <sombrero> Hi
19:31:13 <sombrero> mmm, just a quick visit to express my gratitude to the esolanguagers and esolinguists that build esolang.org , I was a good source of inspiratio
19:31:37 <sombrero> It was a good source of inspiration
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19:53:43 <arseniiv> `relcome sombrero
19:53:45 <HackEso> ​sombrero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:57:04 <sombrero> well, besides help with eso-inspiration, I was trying to locate ternary material, and indeed there was an esolang called "TrybblePusher". https://vixra.org/abs/2002.0570 (specifically for the last section )  
19:57:14 <sombrero> ;)  
20:19:13 <sombrero> thanks
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21:20:16 <esowiki> [[ALIMBIHNN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70209&oldid=70208 * Hanzlu * (-1) 
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2020-03-08:

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00:51:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Neauoire *  uploaded "[[File:ESjAmDWU8AAVJsH.jpg]]"
00:52:00 <esowiki> [[Orca]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70211&oldid=70097 * Neauoire * (+192) Added image
00:54:11 <esowiki> [[Orca]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70212&oldid=70211 * Neauoire * (+15) Added caption to IDE image
00:57:06 <esowiki> [[Orca]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70213&oldid=70212 * Neauoire * (+175) 
01:01:18 <esowiki> [[Orca]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70214&oldid=70213 * Neauoire * (+40) /* External resources */
01:05:07 <esowiki> [[Orca]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70215&oldid=70214 * Neauoire * (+273) Added midi example
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03:18:22 <zzo38> Now I implemented the "setsheet" command in TeXnicard, which needs an array of up to sixteen sheet names. (Sheet names are separate from page names.) Hopefully sixteen sheets per card should be sufficient!
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07:21:06 <esowiki> [[KEMURI]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70216&oldid=69952 * YamTokTpaFa * (+801) 
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09:33:32 <b_jonas> fungot, where do I buy baby weight scales conforming to the 2019 redefinition of the kilogram?
09:33:32 <fungot> b_jonas: advice for me? :d hehe. yea. right)
09:37:52 <b_jonas> fungot, how do you pronounce "complacent"?
09:37:52 <fungot> b_jonas: yep also didn't like hw much, well doing electronics to be exact.
09:38:11 <b_jonas> neither hace I
10:14:24 <int-e> Hmm there's "complaisant" as well, didn't know that.
10:18:07 <b_jonas> int-e: that sounds like someone tried to spell "complacent" in french
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11:22:09 <b_jonas> fungot, what does the english verb "discress" mean?
11:22:09 <fungot> b_jonas: luxy like, *now*, for example
11:23:44 <int-e> b_jonas: No, they just borrowed the word from french, and it ended up with two homophones that have slightly different meanings.
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12:59:52 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70217&oldid=67705 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) /* C */ Changed x from an unsigned int just to an int, because the 'if x == -1' would never execute for an unsigned int.
13:08:28 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70218&oldid=70172 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Commands */
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13:38:00 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70219&oldid=70218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+172) Interpreters for esos
13:50:53 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70220&oldid=70192 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+101) /* Interpret Deadfish 1 char at a time */
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16:05:06 <b_jonas> fungot: ok, so what's your quote for the immortality serum with the lifetime warranty, adult size?
16:10:57 <esowiki> [[DINAC/STDLIB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70221&oldid=70188 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 
16:15:58 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70222&oldid=70220 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1248) /* Interpret Deadfish 1 char at a time */
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16:47:43 <arseniiv_> fungot: I join b_jonas here
16:47:43 <fungot> arseniiv_: if you think she is lacking in my idea, really; it's just an example of how to implement v and started writing them down
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16:48:15 <arseniiv> hm fungot knows about the v language
16:48:15 <fungot> arseniiv: reading nested stuff is a pain
16:48:36 <arseniiv> I agree to an extent
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16:54:27 <b_jonas> fungot: what's your quote for the immortality serum with the lifetime warranty, adult size?
16:54:27 <fungot> b_jonas: does it generate? i'm not talking about programmers that are beginners in scheme.
16:54:37 <b_jonas> um
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16:54:50 <ais523-> the hyphen is half an underscore
16:55:56 <MTGBusyBeaver> so underten?
16:56:10 <ais523-> seems about right :-D
16:57:04 <ais523-> (I add extra underscores to my name to indicate how insane the method via which I'm connecting to IRC is)
16:57:24 <b_jonas> I was thinking more of ↽ which is half of ←
16:58:02 <ais523-> on the subject of the "growing" alternative waterfall model, it doesn't act much like The Waterfall Model at all, I suspect it may be TC via some other mechanism but it's going to be hard to prove
16:58:16 <b_jonas> oh, I use nc_jonas as my nick when I connect using (rlwrap netcat chat.freenode.net 6667 | cat -v) except that I don't because I most often do that to renew the last seen time of alternate nicks that I own
16:58:21 <ais523-> the way to think about it is that the zeroing triggers are delayed for a while, then all run at once
16:58:53 <ais523-> b_jonas: that's ais523|telnet (or ais523|nc) when I do it, and merits less than half an underscore
16:59:21 <ais523-> really, the issue with the underscore scale is that ais523_ is actually fairly restricted, there should have been more scales with fewer underscores than that
17:00:21 <b_jonas> I don't recall what exact program I used to connect from the rescue system of debian install images
17:00:38 <ais523-> b_jonas: that is very very close to my current half-underscore setup, as it happens
17:00:47 <MTGBusyBeaver> you think it is actually TC? Interesting. I'm having a hard time seeing how it could behave nicely.
17:01:18 <ais523-> as a general rule, if you can't easily prove something sub-TC, and don't notice a restriction that seems insurmountable, it usually is TC
17:02:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> if it is, that opens up a lot more waterclocks (249-c where c is some small constant like 3)
17:02:31 <MTGBusyBeaver> and makes the setup a lot easier
17:04:24 <b_jonas> I don't think the difference between 120 and 240 clocks matters, if your limit on the matrix values isn't small
17:04:26 <zzo38> I add the underscores when the server is unaware that the connection with the name "zzo38" is lost.
17:04:37 <MTGBusyBeaver> also there was a question about how these implementations handle the case when two waterclocks zero at the same time. Both of their rules get run before the next decrements.
17:07:32 <ais523-> that's OK, any deterministic resolution will be OK for this
17:07:43 <ais523-> because you can write programs to never need to do that
17:08:03 <ais523-> obviously it has to be deterministic so that you can't create a loop where a player controls the number of iterations
17:08:47 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, exactly. Thats why we are using Coat of Arms as the way to boost toughness
17:09:01 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name Coat of Arms
17:09:03 <HackEso> Coat of Arms \ 5 \ Artifact \ Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) \ EX-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R, DDS-R, H09-R
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17:36:32 <b_jonas> well, google says "Your search - immortality serum lifetime warranty - did not match any shopping results."
17:37:02 <b_jonas> it also says "Suggestions: Make sure that all words are spelled correctly." which is a bit ridiculous because google knows perfectly well how to fix misspelled words
18:06:06 <zzo38> Someone told me that Google Groups has stopped carrying Usenet groups, but this morning I downloaded six articles and four were from Google Groups. Do you know anything about this? Maybe it is just new ones they have stopped adding? I don't know?
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21:49:29 <esowiki> [[2C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70223&oldid=66753 * Ais523 non-admin * (+0) /* Limited alphabet */ fix proof
21:50:24 <esowiki> [[2C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70224&oldid=70223 * Ais523 non-admin * (+0) /* Limited alphabet */ fix the other location too
21:51:23 <esowiki> [[2C]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70225&oldid=70224 * Ais523 non-admin * (+3) /* Limited alphabet */ typo
23:05:11 <zzo38> I made up a "separations output format", which is meant for use when a program outputs raster data for printing with an arbitrary set of separations, and to be not too complicated to read and write, but allows metadata to be specified if needed.
23:06:49 <zzo38> Do you like this?
23:08:38 <ais523-> I don't think I've ever written a program that needs to do that
23:08:50 <ais523-> but its probably good to have a defined format if you're writing a program that does
23:12:58 <zzo38> OK
23:15:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: doesn't ImageMagick 7's format already allow an arbitrary number of color channels?
23:15:41 <b_jonas> although sometimes you want 8-bit rgb channels and 16-bit depth
23:17:00 <b_jonas> I just use multiple images for that sort of thing though
23:18:58 <zzo38> Maybe it does, although I think that has a somewhat different use that what I did.
23:20:29 <zzo38> Here is the current version of the document:  http://sprunge.us/3VkU32  I can change it if you have suggestions to change it, though (maybe).
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23:33:45 <Hooloovo0> I think I don't understand what "raster" and "separations" mean
23:34:26 <int-e> raster ~ a grid of pixels
23:34:45 <int-e> I imagine separations are for color channels? I haven't looked.
23:35:25 <Hooloovo0> yes, I know what both of those words mean, but not in context
23:38:39 <zzo38> Yes, mainly, although separations are generally used for printing, and not for display on screen.
23:54:30 <zzo38> Printing separations is normally CMYK, although sometimes additional separations are used. (e.g. Magic: the Gathering cards are printed with two additional separations; one for the "underprinting layer" on shiny cards, and one for the text (which is still black, but I read somewhere that it is a separate black layer than the black layer for the art))

2020-03-09:

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00:21:19 <kmc> zzo38: interesting, do you know why they use a separate black layer?
00:22:02 <b_jonas> kmc: they do that for most color printing, different ink for the black in the full color parts and in the black and white parts
00:22:22 <b_jonas> kmc: even most home printers have separate black inks for them, except for some very cheap ones
00:23:05 <b_jonas> it's nothing specific for M:tG
00:23:12 <int-e> . o O ( Which are probably very expensive in the long run, and have awful looking text. )
00:23:14 <b_jonas> mind you, M:tG does use other special printing technology
00:23:51 <b_jonas> including I think printing the back in a different way than the front, to keep the back hard to distinguish between different sets while the front can become nicer
00:23:52 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot_color also comes up
00:24:38 <int-e> (Generally. I don't quite understand why M:tG comes up here... nerds!)
00:25:24 <b_jonas> int-e: why does category theory come up here? nerds
00:26:05 <int-e> b_jonas: I know, right?
00:26:55 <int-e> But I honestly didn't expect people to care about how M:tG cards are *printed*.
00:26:58 <b_jonas> and SAT solvers and comparison of different proof systems
00:27:24 <b_jonas> int-e: I do care about that sort of thing, typography looking nice
00:27:32 <int-e> b_jonas: Obviously I'm embracing that label myself.
00:27:32 <b_jonas> not only for M:tG cards
00:27:57 <b_jonas> like Knuth says, "I can't eat in a restaurant because I only see what font is used on the menu."
00:28:09 <int-e> kemming
00:28:21 <b_jonas> oh yeah
00:28:22 <int-e> (why did I put a second 'm' in there)
00:28:24 <b_jonas> `? font
00:28:26 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
00:28:29 <b_jonas> ^ this one is characteristic of the channel
00:29:06 <b_jonas> I should add more characters to mine some day
00:29:22 <int-e> b_jonas: Anyway, I apologize if you felt insulted.
00:29:31 <b_jonas> I'm not insulted
00:34:55 <MTGBusyBeaver> Wouldn't the text be on a  different layer than the art/frame due to translations?
00:35:20 <kmc> that's what i was wondering
00:36:24 <int-e> Makes sense to me.
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00:40:23 <b_jonas> MTGBusyBeaver: that doesn't mean they have to print it in different layers
00:40:48 <b_jonas> those are layers for editing
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01:57:40 <shachaf> Why is writing state machines/iterators for traversing recursive structures and so on so hard?
02:02:48 <shachaf> What language features can help with it? Some form of coroutine, I suppose, but if you want something that operates in fixed space it seems pretty tricky.
02:21:09 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know why Magic: the Gathering has a special black layer for text than for art. But this is what I have read; that there are two black layers.
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09:52:17 <cpressey> Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming Lagrangian design, development, and deployment!
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11:21:37 <wib_jonas> Lagrangian_
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12:07:45 <arseniiv> Lagrangian_?
12:08:10 <arseniiv> Hamiltonian^
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12:55:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * KiraRose *  New user account
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13:04:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70226&oldid=70144 * KiraRose * (+143) 
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13:56:47 <esowiki> [[UwU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70227 * KiraRose * (+1765) Created page with "'''UwU''' is an [[Joke language list | joke]] [[esoteric programming language]] designed by [[User: KiraRose]]. It is exactly like [[Brainfuck]] but uses UwU faces making it a..."
13:57:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70228&oldid=70226 * KiraRose * (+4) 
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18:33:25 <esowiki> [[Fit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70229&oldid=65384 * SoundOfScripting * (-1) Shortend TC proof
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19:56:30 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70230&oldid=70219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Interpret PlusOrMinus */
19:59:35 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70231&oldid=70230 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Examples */
19:59:51 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70232&oldid=70231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Quine (1 bytes) */
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2020-03-10:

00:47:04 <arseniiv> I counted all the ordinals, all of them!
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01:13:26 <int-e> classy
01:19:43 <kmc> how many were there
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01:44:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> Update on where we are at on the MTG max damage deck implementing The Waterfall Method with ~124 waterclocks to get Busy Beaver numbers
01:45:20 <MTGBusyBeaver> We have managed to allow us to iterate the Busy Beaver function.
01:45:42 <MTGBusyBeaver> ... A Busy Beaver number of times
01:47:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> so BB_2(X) is BB(BB(BB(...X) where there are BB(X) nested functions
01:50:06 <MTGBusyBeaver> We are currently getting to at least BB_6(X) and possibly to as much as BB_8(X)
01:50:47 <kmc> that's a very busy beaver indeed
01:54:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> proving TWM turing complete with 12 clocks (and a halting clock) improves the X, and possibly opens up other improvements,  Even better is proving the "growing" or "flooding" variant of TWM. 
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05:16:06 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70233&oldid=70232 * A * (+61) Add the infix counterparts
05:19:07 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70234&oldid=70233 * A * (+17051) You really need to copy the text here. Because if Pastebin broke down...
05:43:40 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70235&oldid=70234 * A * (+5797) Take a look at my mass-produced table!
05:43:59 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70236&oldid=70235 * A * (-176) Whoops, left some testing code in.
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05:59:47 <esowiki> [[W (A)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70237&oldid=69995 * A * (+86) 
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11:07:22 <wib_jonas> why does python not have a command-line option to add directories to the module search path, like perl -I ?
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11:11:06 <cpressey> Because Python programmers love typing the word PYTHONPATH.
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11:44:21 <Taneb> (I still don't get how those MtG people are managing to iterate the busy beaver function)
11:47:57 <cpressey> Taneb: I think of it this way: there is an NTM that recognizes BB(BB(100)) and recognizes no larger finite numbers.
11:48:40 <cpressey> It recognizes smaller numbers, too - I think that's unavoidable.
11:48:55 <cpressey> But BB(BB(100)) is the largest finite number it recognizes.
11:49:44 <Taneb> So they're calculating a set with an upper bound of BB(BB(100))?
11:51:04 <cpressey> For a certain deck, there is a set of possible plays; the largest-damage play in this deck does a damage of BB(BB(100)). They don't *calculate* it. But it is a *possible* play of the deck.
11:51:31 <cpressey> If you were to somehow guess it, you could play it. You wouldn't *know* you guessed it.
11:51:50 <cpressey> Importantly: any larger guess would not be playable, with this deck.
11:52:18 <Taneb> Right, I think I understand now
11:52:47 <Taneb> They're making decks with extremely high but finite upper bounds on how much damage they can do
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11:56:00 <cpressey> Right (and part of that is disallowing a deck if it can deal unbounded damage).
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12:04:14 <esowiki> [[Dotsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70238 * Quadril-Is * (+333) Quick copy paste from samsung notes
12:05:08 <cpressey> "100" is just picked out of the air. int-e used 10^100. I think the actual constant is limited by what you can encode in the deck.
12:05:50 <cpressey> But I'm not sure you couldn't also make a deck iterate BB multiple times, so you could maybe BB(BB(BB(BB(BB(6))))) - you probably don't need a large constant.
12:10:28 <Taneb> 01:47 MTGBusyBeaver: so BB_2(X) is BB(BB(BB(...X) where there are BB(X) nested functions                                                                                           
12:10:28 <Taneb> 01:50 MTGBusyBeaver: We are currently getting to at least BB_6(X) and possibly to as much as BB_8(X) 
12:12:25 <wib_jonas> wait what_
12:12:31 <wib_jonas> really?
12:13:44 <Taneb> I only have MTGBusyBeaver's word for it
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12:59:25 <Cale> hmm
13:03:20 <longname> 08:02 <+Lisbeth> Sorry N33R I just love seeing your reaction
13:03:24 <longname> aaaaa
13:03:45 <longname> it keeps accidentally copy/pasting
13:05:43 <arseniiv> <kmc> how many were there => |Ord| many
13:06:12 <Cale> The value of BB(1919) is already independent of ZFC
13:07:36 <arseniiv> uh I may have answered “two many”, damn
13:08:05 <arseniiv> might*
13:11:17 <Cale> Quantifiers get really weird here. While it's obviously the case that given any natural number n, we can give a construction of a Turing machine that recognises numbers up to n, when we have no way of explicitly writing down the numeral for n, and instead it's a natural number that is defined by some formula, we immediately run into cases where constructing such a Turing machine is no longer so easy.
13:11:44 <Cale> So, while you can say "there is an NTM that recognizes BB(BB(100)) and recognizes no larger finite numbers", and in some sense it's obviously true
13:14:01 <Cale> There's something a bit weird about it, because we don't know (and it'll be undecidable for practically any system of mathematics we've devised) which number that is, and it doesn't seem easy to otherwise produce a machine that would have to fit the bill regardless.
13:16:35 <Cale> So if you wanted to write down the precise states of the machine in its entirety, even with an unlimited amount of paper, it would be beyond us and it's not even entirely clear that such a thing is well-defined. :D
13:17:11 <Cale> (because the values of busy beaver numbers become independent of axiomatic systems so quickly)
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13:36:31 <cpressey> What gets me is, if you were to somehow (miraculously!) guess BB(BB(100)), the NTM would accept it, but you'd never know if the number you guessed was *actually* BB(BB(100)). The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too. How that necessity comes about definitely feels a little weird to me.
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13:52:57 <Cale> cpressey: Well, if somehow we could prove in ZFC that a Turing machine with a concrete representation only accepted, for example, BB(1919), then there would additionally be a finite sequence of steps in ZFC explaining the evaluation of that Turing machine on a particular numeral n = S(S(S...(SZ)...) and thus deciding the value of BB(1919). But there is a Turing machine with 1919 states which unless ZFC is 
13:52:57 <Cale> inconsistent, ZFC can't prove that it terminates, because the machine searches for contradictions in ZFC.
13:57:49 <Cale> At the same time, it's fine that ZFC proves that such a Turing machine exists in the sense of proving a sentence of the form (exists x. ...) because it doesn't necessarily tell us what that machine is.
14:30:24 <cpressey> "The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too" <-- After taking a walk, I think this is not quite right now. But it all makes my head spin.
14:38:24 <Taneb> You can definitely make a turing machine that accepts that number and only that number, if you happen to out-of-band know what that number happens to be
14:41:05 <cpressey> "Do you accept this number?" "Yes." "Do you accept any smaller numbers?" "No." "Do you accept any larger numbers?" "Beats me, pal."
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14:47:13 <MTGBusyBeaver> Sorry to miss the earlier conversation about how we iterate the BB function
14:48:07 <Taneb> No worries, I'm satisfied with it now
14:50:45 <MTGBusyBeaver> Without going too deep into the technical details, the TM outputs a resource (life) that we can use to increase the efficiency of our conversion into more/bigger TMs
14:51:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> chaining these together lets us get higher order BB functions.
14:53:28 <wib_jonas> sure, but don't you run out of kinds of resources? M:tG doesn't offer that many easily usable types, and you need some for internal use by the turing machine, and some for the part before that generates the resource that limits the entries of the waterfall matrix
14:54:14 <wib_jonas> don't you get all sorts of conflicts where the cards of the deck can be used in ways other than you planned?
14:56:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes the number of resources is why we are at about BB_6 instead of higher.
14:56:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> The TM itself uses creatures and bans many instants
14:57:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> The setup is extremely limiting with the number of creatures and enchantments we can have total
14:57:49 <MTGBusyBeaver> (non aura enchantments)
14:58:24 <wib_jonas> ok, but BB_6 of a non-small number still sounds hard to attain to me, so I'll have to look up the details later
14:59:33 <MTGBusyBeaver> The TM construction uses 2 creature types per waterclock, so we are limited to 124 waterclock (plenty enough to implement a Universal TM)
14:59:51 <wib_jonas> yes, that part doesn't sound too limiting
15:00:29 <MTGBusyBeaver> and yes I plan on getting this properly written up so that interested parties dont have to comb through the 100+ page forum thread.
15:01:00 <wib_jonas> ah yes, that's always the plan. at least there's a forum thread and irc logs where I'll be able to see the main ideas
15:02:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> well I did it for beating ghram's number in standard last year
15:02:34 <wib_jonas> I don't even know yet how you'll get a waterclock from Door of Destinies... no wait, what enchantment was it?
15:03:08 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name rotlung reanimator
15:03:10 <HackEso> Rotlung Reanimator \ 2B \ Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 2/2 \ Whenever Rotlung Reanimator or another Cleric dies, create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token. \ ONS-R
15:03:19 <wib_jonas> Coat of Arms
15:03:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name coat of arms
15:03:26 <HackEso> Coat of Arms \ 5 \ Artifact \ Each creature gets +1/+1 for each other creature on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.) \ EX-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R, DDS-R, H09-R
15:03:40 <wib_jonas> I do understand the Rotlung Reanimator construction, more or less
15:03:48 <MTGBusyBeaver> `card-by-name Dralnu's crusade
15:03:49 <HackEso> Dralnu's Crusade \ 1BR \ Enchantment \ Goblin creatures get +1/+1. \ All Goblins are black and are Zombies in addition to their other creature types. \ PS-R
15:03:59 <wib_jonas> there are three cards like Rotlung Reanimator, and they are very important for all these constructions
15:04:19 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah we actually use bishop of wings but thats probably not in the DB
15:04:33 <wib_jonas> ...
15:04:37 <wib_jonas> ok, then there's more than three
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15:05:21 <wib_jonas> I knew of Rotlung Reanimator, Xathrid Necromancer, Hungry Lynx. 
15:05:39 <MTGBusyBeaver> hungry lynx doesnt make tokens, it buffs tokens
15:06:02 <MTGBusyBeaver> it got replaced by coat of arms
15:06:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> to not be a triggered effect
15:06:17 <wib_jonas> doesn't matter, it still refers two different creature types that you can evolve
15:06:27 <wib_jonas> in an assymetric manner
15:06:34 <wib_jonas> that's sort of the limiting factor
15:07:06 <wib_jonas> we have very few cards that refer two creature types in such a way that we can use it for constructions where one creature type is the trigger and the other is the action and it's repeatable enough to run the program
15:07:16 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah so the construction is a bunch of crusades saying all X' are X
15:08:05 <MTGBusyBeaver> and the bishops triggering on X dying to make a',b',c's
15:08:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> and remaking the one X
15:08:37 <wib_jonas> but if you still have a card like Bishop of Wings in, then I'm not too surprised
15:08:50 <wib_jonas> I assumed too much when you mentioned the Coat of Arms
15:09:02 <wib_jonas> I mean, I'm still surprised about BB_6 on a large number
15:09:11 <wib_jonas> but not about having a working universal computer
15:09:29 <wib_jonas> just surprised on having a deck with such a large damage limit but no infinite damage loop
15:09:37 <wib_jonas> without DMM's additional rules
15:10:01 <MTGBusyBeaver> and yes there are often unintended infinites that need to get patched out
15:12:12 <wib_jonas> you know that ais's original attempt to simulate StackFlow failed beacuse of too much freedom on putting triggers onto the stack, and we never found a fix for that, right?
15:12:24 <wib_jonas> that's why it scared me when you mentioned trigger stacking order about this construction
15:13:00 <wib_jonas> eventually ais invented The Waterfall Machine instead, and simulated that, so that problem got solved, but still
15:13:23 <MTGBusyBeaver> that's why coat of arms is perfect, it doesnt matter what order the tokens get made in
15:13:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> they will all be the same size
15:13:51 <MTGBusyBeaver> and will all die at the same time
15:15:34 <MTGBusyBeaver> we do need to force only our opponent to have bishops when the TM starts running
15:15:52 <MTGBusyBeaver> so that the arcbond trigger is forced to be at the bottom.
15:16:50 <wib_jonas> but I don't understand how Coat of Arms is used, or how you're using creature types
15:17:12 <wib_jonas> do you have two creature types per clock? and how do you use them?
15:17:32 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah 2 perclock
15:18:24 <MTGBusyBeaver> we have the main creature type and a secondary type for each clock
15:19:26 <MTGBusyBeaver> Dralnu's crusade gets hacked to say that the primary type is also the secondary type
15:20:10 <MTGBusyBeaver> Bishops trigger on the primary type dying and make secondary types for the appropriate clocks and also remake the primary
15:22:01 <MTGBusyBeaver> Coat of arms causes the secondary creatures to buff the primary ones, keeping them at the proper distance from dead, as well as ensuring that any damage that kills the primary will also kill all of the secondaries.
15:22:26 <wib_jonas> so you only have one creature per primary creature type?
15:22:30 <MTGBusyBeaver> yes
15:22:37 <wib_jonas> that might work
15:22:58 <wib_jonas> then only that one creature causes death triggers, but it takes its size from the lots of creatures of the secondary type
15:23:19 <wib_jonas> that's a new idea, I don't think I've seen it in the previous constructions, and it does explain Coat of Arms
15:25:43 <wib_jonas> that's a nice trick
15:26:14 <wib_jonas> there are a few cards that have such triggers built-in, I'll have to look at them if they're usable for something:
15:26:25 <MTGBusyBeaver> yeah, though we'd also like to know/prove if the variant without Dralnu's crusades is TC, there its just one creature type so the death triggers start getting multiplied and compoinding pretty quick
15:26:46 <wib_jonas> Mark of the Oni; Stenchskipper
15:29:48 <wib_jonas> maybe Ophiomancer but unlikely
15:30:28 <MTGBusyBeaver> (tentatively calling it Flooded Waterfall Machine, because it causes overflow)
15:32:21 <wib_jonas> Aysen Crusader
15:32:48 <wib_jonas> no, none of those will work easily because you can't bring them back
15:32:58 <wib_jonas> it has to be external like the Coat of Arms
15:34:22 <MTGBusyBeaver> and happen quickly, not waiting until end of turn, (we only get one)
15:34:54 <MTGBusyBeaver> (did I mention that this is all happening on turn 1?)
15:35:05 <wib_jonas> sure, that makes sense
15:36:07 <MTGBusyBeaver> anyway g2g be on later.
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15:36:47 <wib_jonas> Alex Churchill et all's construction happens over (twice) as many turns as the underlying machine runs, but you can't do that if you want no infinite damage loops in your machine
15:36:54 <wib_jonas> s/all's/et al/
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17:12:22 <esowiki> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70239&oldid=70191 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+886) 
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18:08:07 <esowiki> [[ZFC++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70240&oldid=70168 * Hakerh400 * (+16) 
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18:56:31 <kspalaiologos> ,[>[-]<[->+<],]>[>+>+<<-]<-[>+<-----]>-->>[-[->>+<]>[<]<]>>[-<<++>>]<<<[->-<]+>[<->[-]][-]+>[-]<<[<.>>-]>[<<-.>>->] <- an interesting thingy in Brainfuck; around 100 byte isEven, requires uint8_t cells and 0 on EOF
18:56:59 <kspalaiologos> supports arbitrary length integers
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22:13:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70242&oldid=70183 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Siterip]]
22:13:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70243&oldid=70167 * Hakerh400 * (+14) +[[Siterip]]
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22:15:25 <ais523> hmm, I've finally figured out why you can't create an infinite damage loop with the present construction
22:15:35 <ais523> it's set up so that you can't interrupt a damage loop at instant speed
22:15:46 <ais523> so either the loop ends naturally (e.g. with the opponent dying) in which case it isn't infinite
22:16:06 <ais523> or else, the loop /is/ infinite, but in that case the game ends in a draw before any damage is actually dealt, because it's infinite
22:16:23 <ais523> the important point is that you can't have any manual control over the amount of damage dealt once the loop is started
22:23:12 <ais523> this feels unsatisfyingly tautologous, it's "you can't create an infinite loop because you can't create an infinite loop"
22:23:30 <ais523> but it more boils down to "you can't create an arbitrarily large loop because you have no mechanism to specify an arbitrarily large number"
22:24:07 <ais523> it's rather counterintuitive to the normal idea of "no infinite combos", though; there are infinite combos, which can kill opponents from any amount of life, but you can't overkill via a chosen amount of life so it still fits the definition
22:27:03 <b_jonas> so you can't deal an unlimited amount of life and continue the match
22:27:09 <b_jonas> game
22:28:07 <b_jonas> sort of like http://anselan.com/tutorial.html
22:38:48 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, can the second case, the case when you deal an unlimited amount of damage to the opponent but you do this so fast that he never loses the game, even happen? I don't think such a tight loop is possible, because the opponent would lose at state-based effect speed.
22:39:58 <b_jonas> or do you just mean an infinite loop that doesn't deal damage to the opponent?
22:40:51 <ais523> `card-by-name Arcbond
22:40:52 <HackEso> Arcbond \ 2R \ Instant \ Choose target creature. Whenever that creature is dealt damage this turn, it deals that much damage to each other creature and each player. \ FRF-R
22:41:30 <ais523> the specific example is two copies of Arcbond on creatures with lifelink and indestructible
22:41:42 <ais523> the loop does damage on every iteration, but the players gain life too, so it never actually exits
22:41:55 <ais523> this would be "infinite damage" except that the game rules prevent the loop happening, because it has no way to end
22:42:15 <ais523> (the actual combo doesn't IIRC involve lifelink at the moment, but it has an alternative method to gain the players life)
22:43:33 <b_jonas> oh wtf. why would Wizards think that's a good idea to print, even as a rare?
22:43:55 <b_jonas> ah, the players gain life
22:43:59 <b_jonas> tricky
22:44:36 <ais523> double arcbond is used for the steady decrement in the current busy beaver TWM construction
22:44:39 <b_jonas> and yes, the opponent gaining life explains why my reasoning is wrong
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22:45:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not surprised about constructions using them. I'm just surprised that they printed that in a standard-legal set.
22:46:32 <b_jonas> so what you mustn't put in these decks are combos that are unlimited and a player can choose how many times they execute it
22:46:54 <b_jonas> at least if there's any possibility that something from it can be converted to damage to the opponent
22:47:16 <ais523> right
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2020-03-11:

00:14:16 <arseniiv> was here a holy war about whether ++ and -- (and specifically, both prefix and postfix kinds of these) are such a good thing in a language?
00:15:06 <ais523> just putting this out there for people who are interested: I've made a draft of what a 10+halt-waterclock interpreter for a TC language in The Waterfall Model could look like: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/and-high-rise.txt
00:15:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: not really a hot holy war, but python and ruby silently don't have them
00:15:31 <ais523> I haven't proved this TC, nor implemented the actual interpreter yet
00:15:42 <ais523> just described the basic design and what all the waterclocks are used for
00:15:46 <ais523> so it's quite possible there's a mistake
00:15:50 <ais523> but I thought I'd post it anyway
00:16:08 <ais523> it's almost certainly possible to do better than 10 but I thought I'd err on the side of producing something TC
00:16:42 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah Python is amidst sane ones here :) (for what I think)
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00:17:29 <b_jonas> ais523: do you also have a suspected order of magnitude on the upper bound of the waterfall matrix elements, as a function of the program size in some other more well-known computational model?
00:17:32 <arseniiv> ais523: The Waterfall Model is nice
00:17:44 <b_jonas> I'd like to know how many exponentials you need
00:18:15 <ais523> b_jonas: two of the matrix exponents are probably single-exponential in the size of a 2-tag system that emulates the program
00:18:30 <MtGBusyBeaver> I am also curious to how big the initial setup needs to be
00:18:34 <ais523> err, actually 1, in this construction
00:18:41 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: a double-arrow number is enough, a single-arrow number might not be
00:18:55 <MtGBusyBeaver> ezpz
00:19:10 <ais523> I wasn't quite sure how powerful the pre-BB layers would be
00:19:34 <ais523> if you can reconfigure the machine between iterations you can make do with small numbers by constructing a Waterfall Model program whose purpose is to output a large number rather than to be a UTM
00:19:35 <MtGBusyBeaver> they are less powerful for sure, but they are still layers
00:19:57 <MtGBusyBeaver> so they are roughly one arrow each
00:19:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but how about a 150***3 or 150***4 number? I'd like to know how many exponentials you need. a double arrow number like 150***150 is likely enough.
00:20:05 <ais523> but I figured you'd probably find a way to create a double-arrow number
00:20:27 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the issue is that you're encoding the UTM you want to run as the digits of a number
00:20:30 <b_jonas> not many of even your esolanguages need more than a few levels of exponential to simulate something sane
00:20:32 <ais523> so it's exponential in the size of the UTM
00:20:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, there are no inputs, only program
00:20:52 <b_jonas> both in the turing machine you run and the waterfall program
00:21:07 <ais523> I believed I only used a double-exponential (2**(2**x)) once, and even in that situation it later turned out to be unnecessary
00:21:07 <b_jonas> that's why I asked as a function of the program size
00:21:11 <ais523> *I believe
00:21:11 <MtGBusyBeaver> we can probably make something like 5-7 arrows with just what we have
00:22:00 <b_jonas> ais523: though I guess in this case I have to ask this restricted to less than a hundred waterclocks, regardless of input program size, to be more relevant for M:tG
00:22:10 <ais523> b_jonas: this is a specific construction with 10 waterclocks
00:22:14 <ais523> + a halt waterclock
00:22:25 <ais523> that I haven't figured out the details of yet, but have a basic plan for
00:22:43 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: I also guess that just a double arrow number like 150***150 should be enough for most programs
00:22:55 <b_jonas> four arrows like you mentioned earlier should be more than enough
00:22:58 <ais523> the idea is to implement a version of High Rise in base 3 where carrying is disallowed, sequences 0 and 1 are empty, and sequence 2 alternates between a geometric progression and 0
00:23:47 <ais523> that High Rise language, I'm about 99% confident has a fairly direct implementation of 2-tag
00:23:54 <MtGBusyBeaver> well once we run one BB we have access to that number so iterations really grow very fast
00:24:23 <ais523> via arranging the base of sequence 2's geometric progression so that the distances between pairs of 2s in the data string (with one intervening 2 between them) represent tag system elements
00:24:26 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: yes, the question is just how larege you need to start the bootstrapping 
00:24:47 <arseniiv> . o O ( wait, only just now I noticed that zero arrows is the multiplication (and both can be denoted by an empty string), so arrow notation is even better than I thought! )
00:24:52 <b_jonas> it almost certainly won't be a problem in your M:tG construction, but I'm still curious for reasons other than that construction
00:24:55 <ais523> and I'm also fairly confident that a The Waterfall Model program using the waterclock assignment I linked above can be made to implement it
00:25:09 <MtGBusyBeaver> checking the logs for it
00:25:42 <MtGBusyBeaver> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/and-high-rise.txt this link?
00:25:43 <b_jonas> ais523: that should work. and how many exponentials do you need to encode *to* a 2-tag system
00:25:54 <ais523> now, if you have a double-arrow startup, you could make do with a fixed program (and simply varying the initial waterclock sizes) by writing a UTM in 2-tag and hardcoding that
00:25:59 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: right
00:26:12 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: although it's just a thought dump rather than presented in a way that's easy to follow
00:26:17 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/High_Rise might help for some context
00:26:48 <ais523> I will probably end up writing out the explicit proofs and Waterfall Model machine at some point, but likely not in the next few days because I have a day job
00:27:14 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't know offhand how complex UTMs in 2-tag are
00:27:15 <b_jonas> nice
00:27:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not asking for an UTM there, rather how large the tag system program is as a function of the program you're compiling from
00:27:48 <ais523> the problem with languages that are "well known" to be TC is that I often haven't proved them TC myself and thus don't have much of an intuitive idea of what the complexities are like
00:28:03 <b_jonas> ais523: for the Waterfall model, you need an UTM so that the program always fits in 150 or so waterclocks, because the M:tG construction can't handle more
00:28:23 <ais523> b_jonas: well, this is the usual trick when optimising universal machines
00:28:37 <ais523> you want your machine to be small, so you want as little code as possible, so much of the complexity is in the data
00:28:47 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess that's true
00:28:59 <b_jonas> if you only care about program size, not runtime (and we don't care about runtime here), then an UTM probably helps
00:29:08 <ais523> just look at, e.g., Three Star Programmer or the I/D machine
00:29:28 <MtGBusyBeaver> well we have to do shenanigans to get 124 clocks
00:29:43 <ais523> the interpreters are ridiculously simple and small, but writing a program to do anything is very complex because you have to code all the basic operations you want into the program itself
00:29:52 <b_jonas> sure
00:29:55 <MtGBusyBeaver> 12 and under requires much less restriction on the setu
00:30:00 <MtGBusyBeaver> setup
00:30:32 <ais523> Three Star Programmer requires a complex one-time setup just to be able to write to specific memory addresses, for example, then needs to neutralise the extra copies of that setup on every future iteration because it has no way to run code only once
00:30:57 <MtGBusyBeaver> and it looks like 10 is going to be enough for TC-ness
00:31:00 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: that's why I was aiming for 12 as a target, it's nice to have a concrete number rather than continuously worry about if I'm wasting a waterclock somewhere
00:31:12 <ais523> the 10 is almost certainly improvable, but I can't immediately see how
00:31:18 <b_jonas> "no way to run code only once" => oh no... Countercall
00:31:36 <ais523> b_jonas: I think oerjan proved Countercall sub-TC? although I can't remember
00:31:50 <b_jonas> did he?
00:32:02 <ais523> it'll be in the IRC logs from around when Countercall was created
00:32:15 <MtGBusyBeaver> also reading the logs, there are actually two ways for the MTG program to halt
00:32:22 <MtGBusyBeaver> either by killing them
00:32:36 <MtGBusyBeaver> or by killing all of the other arcbonded creatures
00:33:11 <MtGBusyBeaver> the second one can be delayed in a BB method and we can prevent them from dying
00:34:24 <MtGBusyBeaver> so the creatures with arcbond act as the halting clock
00:34:36 <ais523> one nice thing about your construction is that I think it has no limit on "self-reset" values, right?
00:34:43 <ais523> a waterclock that zeroes can set itself to any value
00:34:49 <MtGBusyBeaver> yes
00:35:15 <ais523> with the Hungry Lynx construction, I used Elesh Norn partly for the static +2/+2, giving me a self-reset max of 4, because I was worried it might not be high enough
00:35:26 <ais523> (although I think we subsequently discovered that a self-reset of 3 is enough)
00:35:50 <ais523> but large self-resets might be needed for the 10-waterclock construction
00:36:37 <MtGBusyBeaver> the +1/+1 from dralnu's crusade means we can't reset ourself smaller than 2
00:36:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not entirely sure, but I think oerjan only conjectured that Countercall is not TC, and proved something much weaker
00:36:44 <ais523> ah, OK
00:36:54 <ais523> MtGBusyBeaver: there's no issue with low self-resets
00:36:54 <b_jonas> at least that's what it seems from checking the logs again
00:36:58 <b_jonas> but it could be hiding anywhere
00:37:02 <ais523> you can always just increase all the other waterclocks to compensate
00:37:15 <MtGBusyBeaver> yeah, but it is worth noting
00:37:35 <ais523> right, definitely worth being aware of all your limitations
00:38:36 <MtGBusyBeaver> also if you need any of the "growing"/"flooding" type clocks those don't count towards the 12 limit
00:39:26 <ais523> right, I figured that out; it might be interesting to try to create a UTM with some number of those
00:39:41 <ais523> you'd want to store data using the length of time the program had been running
00:40:00 <ais523> even with the help of a few normal clocks, though, it'd be a pain to keep things under control
00:40:09 <MtGBusyBeaver> yeah it seems really chaotic
00:40:21 <MtGBusyBeaver> volatile
00:43:32 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, it's useful to know that you will probably be able to prove that 10 or 12 clocks are enough
00:43:55 <b_jonas> for turing-completeness that is
00:44:07 <MtGBusyBeaver> well that 10 proof looks close so 12 is almost assured
00:45:11 <b_jonas> oh, since we're talking about M:tG, I wanted to advertise the play-by-post M:tG variant game that we're running: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601011
00:46:55 <MtGBusyBeaver> three card blind always interesting
00:47:12 <b_jonas> each round, players secretly choose a 3-card deck, then they're revealed, then each deck plays two games against each other deck, you don't lose for drawing from an empty library, all game information that would normally be hidden is known, we figure out the result of each game assuming perfect play, 
00:47:30 <ais523> that sounds like 3-card blind so far
00:47:41 <ais523> I assume luck always goes against the player who put the luck card in their deck?
00:47:45 <MtGBusyBeaver> my first forum name was to participate in that on the old WotC
00:47:48 <MtGBusyBeaver> forums
00:47:59 <b_jonas> players get a point for a draw and three points for a match won, the player with the most points in that round wins the round and an internet point and right to boast. 
00:48:16 <MtGBusyBeaver> IIRC luck was decided by the opponent
00:49:21 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's 3-card blind, and yes, random choices go against the person who put that card in their deck
00:51:26 <b_jonas> and it's vanishing, which means that the cards from the deck that won a round are banned from future rounds, except certain cards like basic lands and storage lands are immune to getting banned this way.
00:52:44 <b_jonas> and you aren't allowed to mulligan, despite that with the latest mulligan rule it would actually help you if you could
00:53:23 <b_jonas> but apparently the player base is conservative and not used to the new mulligan rule yet, so they don't want to upset the meta from that
00:55:38 <ais523> I can't think of many situations where you'd prefer to have a card in your deck than in your hand
00:55:46 <MtGBusyBeaver> miracles
00:55:47 <ais523> maybe if you're going second and the opponent is playing Thoughtseize or the like?
00:55:57 <ais523> oh yes, miracles, didn't think of that one but it's obvious now you said it
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00:56:31 <b_jonas> ais523: that's sort of why the situation didn't come up before the current mulligan rule 
00:56:37 <b_jonas> but read the new mulligan rule:
00:57:44 <ais523> you put cards from hand on the bottom of your library, so you choose which one you put there
00:57:49 <ais523> rather than it being random
00:57:50 <b_jonas> exactly
00:58:09 <b_jonas> so now it mostly protects you from Burning Inquiry and other discards
00:58:25 <b_jonas> well, it would
00:58:31 <b_jonas> not completely, but to a very large amount
00:58:45 <b_jonas> only we don't allow mulliganing, as a house rule, so nope
00:59:11 <ais523> well, you have a house rule to not lose by outdraw
00:59:20 <ais523> but that can happen during mulligans in regular MTG
00:59:24 <ais523> so it's a bit of a weird interaction
00:59:44 <ais523> (admittedly, it requires Shahrazad to be possible in a black-border game)
01:00:22 <b_jonas> nevertheless, we did manage to get strange metas from newly released broken cards, most notably the non-black-bordered small print run cards Impatient Iguana and Mirror Lotus
01:00:34 <b_jonas> s/Mirror Lotus/Mirrored Lotus/
01:01:51 <ais523> `card-by-name mirrored lotus
01:01:52 <HackEso> No output.
01:02:09 <ais523> oh, wait, is this from Unsanctioned?
01:02:09 <b_jonas> *newly released*
01:02:12 <b_jonas> no
01:02:28 <ais523> oh, Mystery Booster Playtest
01:02:42 <b_jonas> ais523: technically does not require Shahrazad anymore, because of Karn Liberated, but that won't come up in a real game, because you'll win before it'd happen
01:02:46 <b_jonas> ais523: yes
01:02:50 <ais523> that isn't a silver-bordered card, it has a black border and a "not for constructed play" footer
01:03:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I didn't say silver-bordered, I only said non-black-bordered
01:03:14 <b_jonas> also not gold bordered
01:03:24 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if it technically counts as having any border
01:03:34 <ais523> the border is black, though, with a few intrusions
01:03:53 <MtGBusyBeaver> oh the playtest cards
01:03:54 <b_jonas> but isn't that just the border of the card that the playtest sticker is sticked on?
01:04:10 <b_jonas> the properties of that card shouldn't matter
01:04:19 <b_jonas> even if you can somehow see them
01:04:40 <ais523> b_jonas: the underlying card is part of the card, as printed, though
01:04:45 <ais523> the sticker is also part of the card
01:04:51 <ais523> they're on the same print sheet and printed together
01:05:03 <b_jonas> that said, there probably won't be a judgement on this, because there are only three un-cards that care about whether a card is black-bordered
01:05:12 <ais523> so the underlying card is part of the card; most of its properties don't matter because there's a sticker over it, but I'd argue it determines the border color
01:05:22 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but the underlying card shouldn't matter to determine characteristics
01:05:30 <b_jonas> well I don't know
01:06:21 <ais523> the sticker doesn't cover the border
01:06:24 <b_jonas> maybe they are black-bordered then
01:06:38 <ais523> it's a bit like host/augment, parts of the card are covered by the augment but those parts that aren't still count
01:06:48 <ais523> or Curse of the Fire Penguin
01:06:53 <ais523> `card-by-name curse of the fire penguin
01:06:54 <HackEso> Curse of the Fire Penguin \ 4RR \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Curse of the Fire Penguin consumes and confuses enchanted creature. \ UNH-R \  \ Curse of the Fire Penguin Creature \ 4RR \ Creature -- Penguin \ 6/5 \ Trample \ When this creature dies, return Curse of the Fire Penguin to the battlefield. \ UNH-R
01:07:17 <ais523> was wondering how the bot would represent that thing
01:07:20 <ais523> I guess that's a decent effort
01:07:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think playtest stickers are like that. if they were, I'd make an Ulamog proxy such that the sticker happens to not cover the mana cost {W}
01:07:51 <ais523> b_jonas: the cards in question are not playtest stickers
01:07:58 <ais523> they're cards whose design /looks/ like a playtest sticker
01:08:22 <b_jonas> sure
01:08:25 <ais523> but the sticker and underlying card are part of the same printed card, and in particular the underlying card is always the same
01:08:34 <b_jonas> and admittedly they made a good job where the playtest sticker covers almost everything
01:09:16 <ais523> I think I'd take border color and frame color from the underlying card, but pinline color from the sticker
01:09:28 <b_jonas> ok, then they're black-bordered cards that aren't valid for tournaments
01:09:33 <ais523> that said, I'm not sure if M:tG will ever have a card that cares about pinline color
01:09:34 <MtGBusyBeaver> Form of the mulldrifter is clearly on a mulldrifter though
01:09:44 <ais523> even silver-bordered
01:10:02 <b_jonas> that category already exists I think, because I think some very low print run cards were printed as black bordered with square corners rather than gold bordered
01:10:29 <b_jonas> pinline color would be tricky because pre-Mirrodin cards don't have it
01:10:53 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: heh, indeed
01:12:40 <b_jonas> MtGBusyBeaver: and One with Death is on One with Nothing
01:13:07 <ais523> One with Death is actually a fairly good card in constructed, IIRC
01:13:26 <ais523> because there are a few combos that force your opponent to resolve one of your spells, and that's about the strongest possible payoff for one of those
01:15:03 <b_jonas> ais523: that sounds a bit hard to do. isn't the normal route just donating an Illusions of Grandeur or a Phage?
01:16:26 <MtGBusyBeaver> Hive Mind + pact of negation
01:16:57 <ais523> I think Hive Mind is the most common core of the combo
01:16:59 <ais523> `card-by-name Hive Mind
01:17:00 <HackEso> Hive Mind \ 5U \ Enchantment \ Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, each other player copies that spell. Each of those players may choose new targets for their copy. \ M10-R
01:17:14 <ais523> you don't even need anything else when using One With Death because the opponent's copy resolves first
01:17:48 <ais523> the normal kill in tournaments uses pacts in the hope that the opponent doesn't have the right color of mana to pay for them
01:18:20 <b_jonas> I see
01:19:38 <b_jonas> I played a Phage deck twice in the three card blind, got a second place from it once, and that one doesn't try to get the opponent to resolve Phage, just puts it to play under the opponent's control (as one path to win; the other is to just play it and attack with it)
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02:41:39 <Anas10808> Hi
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04:16:51 <esowiki> [[User:Quadril-Is]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70245&oldid=69894 * Quadril-Is * (+23) 
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10:08:36 <wib_jonas> fizzie: the log bot seems to have stopped yesterday
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13:53:38 <wib_jonas> oh nice!
13:54:11 <wib_jonas> I created a stub at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Orca , and a few months later the person who created this esolang came along and edited more details onto the wiki
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13:55:20 <wib_jonas> including a scan of a print magazine article reviewing the language (or its implementation)
13:55:57 <myname> nice
13:57:29 <wib_jonas> I don't know if they came to the wiki because I wrote the stub, or on the other hand the stub was useless and they'd have written the wiki article anyway, though
13:57:49 <myname> there is much more to explain, though
13:58:10 <myname> explanations of examples would be lovely
13:58:45 <wib_jonas> myname: there's a link saying "Tutorial Video on Youtube"
13:59:33 <myname> yeah, if i don't forget i will watch that later
14:03:01 <wib_jonas> ah, the log bot is working now. and the previous one might have been false alarm.
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15:50:53 <int-e> `"
15:50:55 <HackEso> 1/1:378) <fizzie> elliott: You have become the very thing you fought for! \ 1254) <coppro> actually a small trebuchet onto the balcony might work
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17:04:01 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) Created page with "''Infinite Goto'' is a language by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Programs in it will never end.  ==Syntax== All lines have a number on them. Numbers less than 0 are treated..."
17:04:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70247&oldid=70190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Languages */
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17:27:03 <myname> the youtube video is interesting
17:27:10 <myname> now i want to install it
18:09:46 <arseniiv> myname: there is a browser version also, the article says. Maybe it’s functional enough not to install locally (haven’t tried, but you’ve intrigued me into watching tutorial, maybe a bit later though)
18:13:49 <myname> i downloaded it, but i have no idea on how to  create a midi device
18:24:13 <arseniiv> I think I had a thing somewhere that creates a virtual midi device but that’s a windows one
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18:55:01 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70248&oldid=70246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+965) 
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20:04:42 <arseniiv> that thing is interesting, though I’m not comfortable with that kind of music environments
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20:21:18 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70249&oldid=70248 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+509) /* Syntax */
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20:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, what level of smug prepper are you on right now
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20:40:08 <kmc> lol
20:40:09 <kmc> hi there
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21:07:06 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70251&oldid=70250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+555) /* Syntax */ and /* Examples */
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23:38:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70252&oldid=70242 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* M */
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23:43:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70253&oldid=70252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* I */

2020-03-12:

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01:03:47 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70254&oldid=70217 * Oerjan * (+17) Undo revision 70217 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) (This is the reference interpreter, if you think it doesn't work you're thinking something wrong.)
01:06:12 <oerjan> unless some recent C standard broke it, or something.
01:14:54 <zzo38> What did they break this time?
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01:23:27 <int-e> nothing.
01:24:52 <int-e> I hope this is correct: We have an unsinged int x, and a comparison x == -1. The -1 is of type int and gets promoted to unsigned int (turning into 0xFFFFFFFF on 32 bit platforms) before the comparison is made.
01:25:21 <oerjan> yay
01:25:25 <int-e> shold probably give that a U suffix. But who cares.
01:25:30 <int-e> *should
01:25:48 <int-e> I'll own the "unsinged" though.
01:25:59 <int-e> `grwp unsigned
01:26:02 <HackEso> No output.
01:26:04 <int-e> `grwp unsinged
01:26:07 <HackEso> No output.
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01:26:44 * oerjan torches int-e's unsinged int
01:26:52 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA*
01:28:01 <int-e> Well, I guess it's officially demoted to singed now.
01:28:27 <int-e> If it had been a fireball it might have been an explicit cast.
01:28:48 <int-e> But I'm not sure torches can be interpreted in terms of the C standard.
01:31:45 <oerjan> okay
01:38:15 <int-e> "32 bit platform" -- includes most 64 bit platforms as well, I should check the right terminology here. Surely there's something shorter than "having a 32 bit int type".
01:39:27 <int-e> is this another incArnation?
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01:40:44 * int-e notices the same habit of making virtually all edits "minor".
01:43:28 <oerjan> ask ais523
01:47:01 <int-e> Well, I'm probably wrong. They're actually revisiting old pages and improving them.
01:47:33 <int-e> But I still find this pattern odd :)
01:48:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70255&oldid=70201 * A * (+108) 
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02:33:09 <moony> per an earlier convo, decided to look into Orca
02:33:14 <moony> seems like a fun esolang
02:33:19 <moony> trying to get it to play a note rn
02:41:33 <moony> already like it a lot. Still haven't got a value to play, but it's fun
02:43:26 <moony> I feel like having a large screen gives me a unfair advantage in programming with it
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07:59:54 <zzo38> I found a program with the comment: "This can't, but will, happen."
08:02:35 <myname> i like it
08:03:15 <myname> what is an "unfair advantage in programming"?
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08:20:20 <zzo38> I don't know.
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08:55:18 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70256&oldid=60028 * Salpynx * (-10) /* Hello Worlds */
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09:48:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Siterip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70257 * Salpynx * (+1145) syntax validity
10:02:29 <cpressey> "The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100)) necessarily accepts smaller numbers too" <-- I think I see the problem with this now. s/The NTM/Any *constructible* NTM/
10:03:36 <cpressey> You can posit an NTM that accepts only BB(BB(100)), and such an NTM exists in principle, much like how BB(BB(100)) itself exists in principle. But you can't construct (compute) it.
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10:15:27 <wib_jonas> in the OOTS comic, word of god at "https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-2020-34406298" says that Greg was *also* stuck in Durkon's body without being able to control it until Malack was destroyed. 
10:36:01 <wib_jonas> so Greg was honest and truthful in "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html" that Belkar shouldn't incriminate him for how Malack's thrall drunk Belkar's blood; and Belkar's argument in "http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html" was invalid.
10:36:15 <wib_jonas> well, that part of Belkar's argument. the rest still stands.
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14:13:57 <esowiki> [[Siterip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70258&oldid=70244 * Hakerh400 * (+176) Add clarification
14:14:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Siterip]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70259&oldid=70257 * Hakerh400 * (+1786) /* Syntax validity */
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15:55:25 <cpressey> "Never use a higher-order solution when a first-order solution would suffice."
16:01:06 <cpressey> Also, always remember, automatic merge is a best effort heruistic.
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16:04:22 <int-e> Uh...
16:04:41 <int-e> cpressey: How far is the author of that quote willing to push that idea?
16:05:12 <int-e> . o O ( unfold all your procedures. cut&paste code is the best code. embrace goto. )
16:07:02 <cpressey> Didn't WvO [plan to] write a paper called "Abstraction considered harmful"?
16:07:28 <int-e> And "The NTM that accepts BB(BB(100))" obviously refers to the particular construction that we can actually write down without knowing anything about BB() except its definition.
16:08:00 <int-e> But I guess I'm counter-nitpicking. Surely not very useful, that is.
16:08:09 <wib_jonas> cpressey: I don't know, but some of my coworkers managed to internalize that principle and built large unmaintainable systems with it without the need for a paper
16:08:34 <int-e> mmm WvO
16:08:58 <int-e> cpressey: I'm not even disagreeing with that premise.
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16:09:33 <int-e> cpressey: I think one should stop abstracting when it stops significantly compressing the code, in a weak and fuzzy sense that takes readability into account.
16:10:10 <int-e> (For "real" code.)
16:11:20 <int-e> But who's WvO.
16:12:03 <cpressey> I don't know who might've said those words before me (and I put them in quotes for a reason) but here's how far I'd push it: if you're thinking of writing a macro or a middleware or a metaclass please, please think hard about the class of problems it's supposed to solve and why it's the best way to solve them.
16:12:18 <cpressey> WvO = Wouter van Oortmerssen
16:12:31 <int-e> That doesn't ring a bell?
16:12:43 <cpressey> You don't know who Wouter van Oortmerssen is?
16:12:45 <wib_jonas> cpressey: yes, that version is more reasonable
16:13:15 <int-e> (But at least now I can $GOOGLE)
16:13:27 <cpressey> I feel old now
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16:13:57 <int-e> cpressey: I'm not sure it's an age thing. It's probably more of a bubble phenomenon.
16:14:57 <cpressey> But... but... FALSE
16:15:06 <int-e> Also I'm bad with names. It's quite possible that I've encountered him before. I've certainly heard of False and also of Ardappel (at least in passing).
16:16:52 <int-e> Anyway, I could lament abstractions all day. Especially abstractions that solve a simple problem but are unreasonably complex (because they solve many more problems that nobody has). Favorites: Docker. Kubernetes.
16:17:36 <int-e> (I'm expecting some backlash for this :P Though maybe this is the right crowd to not get much of it.)
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16:18:22 <int-e> cpressey: I forgot, do you use Haskell?
16:18:34 <int-e> cpressey: If so, what do you think of lens?
16:19:57 <cpressey> I use Haskell but I only use like 15% of it.  I don't even use monads (if I can help it) so, no, I haven't used lenses.
16:20:05 <int-e> (lens is a bit of a puzzle to me. And I'm not sure whether I'm just not serious enough of a programmer to appreciate it, or whether it's *actually* a cult with no real gain. I suspect the former.)
16:21:17 <int-e> I do recall a blog post (I believe?) that said that lens is not idiomatic Haskell, and that certainly resonated with me.
16:21:29 <cpressey> I get the impression that if I had an actual need for reversible translations, lens would be useful, but, I could also believe there are lots of people who want translations to be reversible for what are mostly aesthetic purposes...
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16:21:48 <int-e> I have broken into the level of complexity where I felt that monads (the RWS kind) pay off.
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16:23:15 <int-e> And I use the list monad all the time.
16:24:31 <int-e> cpressey: The kind of deeply nested data structures that lens is (supposedly) good for just don't seem to come up in my code.
16:24:56 <int-e> And its vocabulary is just so overwhelming that I never really tried to learn any of it.
16:31:02 <cpressey> I'm more interested in recursion schemes. But, right now, even more interested in learning Coq and seeing what can be done with extraction.
16:31:56 <cpressey> I've worked through the exercises in the first 2 chapters of the first volme of https://softwarefoundations.cis.upenn.edu/ so far
16:33:54 <int-e> Do you use coqide or something else?
16:34:33 <wib_jonas> my recursion schemes are accidental infinite recursion bugs
16:35:03 <cpressey> I started out using jsCoq, then eventually figured out how to install CoqIDE, now using it instead
16:35:03 <int-e> wib_jonas: you could type them in a system with strong normalization
16:35:32 <int-e> (with obvious downsides)
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16:35:49 <wib_jonas> int-e: even the simplest typesafe language would give an error (or at least warning) for that
16:35:51 <int-e> hais523
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16:40:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Category:Turing-complete]]": category redirects don't actually work, the pages don't show up in the redirected-to category
16:41:26 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70260&oldid=70222 * Ais523 * (+0) cat fix
16:41:49 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70261&oldid=70204 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Resources */ cat fix
16:42:12 <esowiki> [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70262&oldid=70241 * Ais523 * (+0) cat fix
16:45:22 <arseniiv> <int-e> And its vocabulary is just so overwhelming that I never really tried to learn any of it. => I used lens in one unfinished interpreter project, I think the code was more or less nice but I haven’t used full potential of lens ever. Lens is mildly intriguing but I totally agree it’s so big and complex
16:46:38 <arseniiv> in that project, I used those assignment-like operations for State monadic code
16:46:45 <Taneb> I like lens, but I'm the one responsible for there being so many damn operators
16:46:49 <arseniiv> they were convenient
16:47:06 <Taneb> (because I needed <<+= for one thing so I added all the rest too)
16:47:28 <ais523> what does <<+= do?
16:47:32 <arseniiv> Taneb: oh now I know who to blame why I can’t let myself dive into them
16:48:13 <ais523> hmm, idea: a programming language that accepts every keyword, operator, control structure etc. from all other languages
16:48:13 <Taneb> ais523: "l <<+= n" adds the number n to the target of the lens l in the state, and returns the value before the addition was performed
16:48:52 <Taneb> (in a MonadState)
16:48:54 <ais523> hmm, oddly languages like C don't have a "postincrement-by" operator
16:49:11 <arseniiv> ais523: and all control structures which aren’t possibly implemented anywhere yet, like exitwhen
16:49:32 <Taneb> > runState (do _1 <<+= 3) (4, "hello")
16:49:34 <ais523> we can always create an esolang to have somewhere to put them
16:49:35 <lambdabot>  (4,(7,"hello"))
16:49:49 <arseniiv> or a straightforward extension to exitwhen to allow it to represent arbitratry, albeit local, effects
16:50:25 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has a way to run a statement and it doesn't do anything until it becomes not an error, then it runs at that moment
16:50:33 <ais523> even though some other part of the code is executing
16:50:35 <ais523> I think, at least
16:50:42 <ais523> you can probably jury-rig an exitwhen out of that
16:51:26 <arseniiv> <Taneb> and returns the value before the addition was performed => mhmm could this kind of a behavior be abstracted out somehow?
16:52:29 <Taneb> :t (%%~)
16:52:30 <lambdabot> LensLike f s t a b -> (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
16:52:39 <ais523> arseniiv: Java uses the name "getAndUpdate" for that
16:52:47 <ais523> (Java doesn't have overloaded operators, just overloaded functions)
16:52:47 <Taneb> :t (<<%~)
16:52:49 <lambdabot> LensLike ((,) a) s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> (a, t)
16:53:21 <ais523> <<+= would be "getAndAdd"
16:53:31 * moony is wondering what's going on
16:53:44 <Taneb> moony: that is rather the point of this channel sometimes, I feel
16:54:21 <Taneb> Then you learn what's going on and we move on to something else, leaving you a little bit more enlightened in the mystical arts of the absolutely useless
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16:54:55 <moony> I feel that esoteric languages present a learning opprotunity, and as such are not absolutely useless
16:55:16 <Taneb> It's not the language that is useless, but what it teaches
16:55:31 <Taneb> In this case the language is more or less Haskell
16:56:28 <moony> "ais523 | hmm, idea: a programming language that accepts every keyword, operator, control structure etc. from all other languages"
16:56:49 <moony> just make a language that can selfmodify, and implement that as a construct in itself
16:56:57 <moony> i.e. make a FORTH and build from there :P
16:57:02 <cpressey> "It's not the language that is useless, but what it teaches" I'll have to remember that one
16:57:05 <ais523> or a CLC-INTERCAL
16:57:22 <ais523> although I guess IACC is the better term for it
16:57:28 <ais523> (the language in which CLC-INTERCAL is implemented)
16:57:33 <ais523> IACC itself is implemented in Perl, also IACC
16:57:48 <ais523> there is a very complex bootstrapping process involved
16:58:23 <Taneb> cpressey: it's not what I say that's profound, but the thoughts it inspires
16:59:17 <moony> ais523: Pharo smalltalk would work too'
16:59:22 <moony> it's written in a subset of itself
17:00:31 <ais523> well, lots of languages are
17:08:19 <moony> I kinda wish there was a JIT language that was implemented in itself. So even the JITting logic would be JIT'd
17:08:55 <int-e> Is that entering Featherweight territory?
17:09:22 <moony> ?
17:10:08 <ais523> most implementation schemes I thought of for Feather were something like that, although it was more like "alternating AOT compilation"
17:10:12 <ais523> maybe a JIT would work better, though
17:10:24 <ais523> (alternating AOT = when you alternate between compiling and running)
17:11:18 <Taneb> moony: isn't Pypy that?
17:11:29 <Taneb> (I don't know it very well though)
17:11:36 <moony> I think so?
17:11:44 <int-e> Alternating AOT is definitely a thing though... I believe both in the Smalltalk world and in the SML world, probably elsewhere as well.
17:12:31 <int-e> And it may extend to JIT (with the profiling-based hotspot optimization) as well.
17:13:15 <int-e> In my mental picture of this, the real trouble is to get rid of the bootstrapping parts eventually.
17:13:17 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70263 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1528) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''function x(y)''' is a language created by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Syntax== To start a function:  function x() Or:  function x(y) Or it can have as..."
17:13:31 <cpressey> Alternating compilation: odd-numbered statements are interpreted, even-numbered statements are compiled
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19:02:34 <olsner> (it's implementation-defined if statement numbering starts on 0 or 1)
19:09:20 <b_jonas> cpressey: or statements starting with PLEASE or PLEASE DO are compiled, statements starting with DO are interpreted
19:12:37 <int-e> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM USING INTERCAL
19:13:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70264&oldid=70247 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) 
19:13:30 <int-e> (Not serious, it's kind of fun. Though I haven't touched it in years...)
19:13:34 <b_jonas> int-e: no! don't do that, now we have to figure out how to do the equivalent of a REINSTATE from the C API
19:14:22 <int-e> b_jonas: pretend there was a line number and use a COME FROM statement?
19:14:49 <b_jonas> oh, that could work, yes
19:14:50 <int-e> Which is a fun way to effectively disable a statement... at least as long as the COME FROM is not ABSTAINED FROM.
19:16:03 <b_jonas> int-e: tcsh can run goto statements in an interactive shell, forwards and backwards across multiple separate input lines. you can goto back to lines that have already been executed immediately. this is such a nice eso feature that I don't understand why no other interactive interpreter supports it. 
19:16:16 <b_jonas> allowing come from in an interactive interpreter would be impossible though.
19:16:21 <b_jonas> at least without a time machine.
19:17:03 <int-e> Yeah... and then things get paradoxical quickly
19:17:42 <int-e> but maybe many-world intercal would be a lot cooler than threaded intercal
19:21:00 <ais523> COME FROM [19:09]
19:21:03 <ais523> err
19:21:06 <ais523> DO COME FROM [19:09]
19:21:10 <ais523> my IRC client has timestamps, it's OK
19:21:32 <int-e> Now you just have to deal with time zones.
19:21:45 <ais523> well it's correct for my client, so I get to use INTERCAL, at least
19:21:45 <int-e> Though I guess that was UTC.
19:22:05 <ais523> it's GMT I think, which is basically identical to UTC but with some minor technical difference
19:23:27 <int-e> Does it alternate between GMT and BST?
19:23:42 <int-e> . o O ( time will tell )
19:23:48 <ais523> my client does, yes
19:24:05 <ais523> OK, so it seems that GMT is ambiguous with respect to how it handles leap seconds, but it's traditionally considered a proportion of a day
19:24:16 <ais523> so GMT times are supposed to smooth out leap seconds across the year
19:24:37 <ais523> and are apparently also affected by the tides (which influence the earth's rotation to some extent)
19:24:50 <ais523> also, once GMT had midday rather than midnight at time 0, but that was changed
19:25:12 <int-e> On computers you'll get something close to UTC anyway (maybe with smoothed leap seconds)
19:25:15 <ais523> but apparently you can write times like "December 31.5 GMT"
19:25:36 <ais523> which is a great idea, fractional days in dates is pretty obvious once you see it
19:25:44 <int-e> Fun.
19:26:49 <int-e> Though it's a bit odd to start at 1.0 and end at <32.0.
19:27:00 <b_jonas> ais523: oh yeah. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2007-03-32.1434.html#d.2007-03-32.1434 is dated to a stylized nonexistent date 
19:27:18 <ais523> March 32 2007
19:27:20 <ais523> how did that happen?
19:27:33 <b_jonas> ais523: deliberate style thing
19:27:46 <ais523> I guess it's the same basic concept as 9690 September, 1993
19:27:47 <b_jonas> David may have had to modify his blog engine to allow that for all I know
19:28:21 <int-e> What kind of format is this... '2020 M05 30'
19:28:32 <ais523> well it makes it clear what's the month and what's the day
19:28:36 <b_jonas> there's also http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2016-12-31.2414.html#d.2016-12-31.2414 which is dated to an existent date but its topic is a fictional date
19:28:39 <ais523> at least if you use a language where "month" starts with "m"
19:28:50 <b_jonas> well, more like the topic is what special event happens on a fictional day
19:28:59 <int-e> ais523: Oh that kind of makes sense. Still looks odd.
19:29:03 <ais523> perhaps it might be useful for unambiguity if you normally use a format that gives week numbers rather than month numbers
19:29:16 <ais523> (those normally put a W into the format to avoid people misinterpreting them as months)
19:29:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no, for week numbers you use 
19:29:18 <b_jonas> `datei
19:29:20 <HackEso> 2020-03-12 19:29:19.493 +0000 UTC March 12 Thursday 2020-W11-4
19:29:26 <b_jonas> 2020-W11-4 <--- that thing
19:30:17 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the date was written as 2020 MAY 30 first, then someone changed the MAY to 05 but wasn't precise enough with the corrector fluid
19:30:35 <b_jonas> or possibly 2020 MAI 30
19:31:26 <int-e> b_jonas: It's how Firefox renders the expiration date of certificates for me in the "Security" tab of the "Page info" dialog...
19:31:37 <int-e> (And no, it's M for all months.)
19:32:03 <int-e> This may have something to do with it, of course: LC_TIME="POSIX"
19:32:35 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, that's an improvement. aren't those expiration dates stored in some insane format in the certificates, with the fields in some random order like %m%d%y%H%M%C%Z,%S ?
19:33:21 <ais523> huh, so some of the BBC radio stations send a time reference signal by radio on the hour most hours, consisting of five short beeps and one longer beep
19:33:35 <ais523> but they adjust for leap seconds by sending an additional short beep on the leap second
19:33:50 <ais523> that's kind-of clever, I should listen out for it next time there's a leap second
19:33:50 <b_jonas> ais523: nice
19:34:20 <int-e> Annoyingly, LC_TIME has no effect on this. But setting LANG to en_US changes the format.
19:34:29 <ais523> this also adjusts for negative leap seconds in the obvious way, but a negative leap second has never happened
19:34:59 <b_jonas> the five beeps from radio was how I set my watch long ago, when the internet didn't exist, I wore a watch, and cheap watches keep time so inaccurately that I had to set the time often
19:35:40 <b_jonas> the television also showed the time but that was not usable for setting an accurate clock because it had an impredictible amount of delay up to 5 seconds
19:35:54 <ais523> I wonder whether radio-controlled clocks use the BBC time signal, or some other time signal
19:36:38 <b_jonas> I think they use some other signal 
19:36:58 <b_jonas> but I'm not quite sure
19:37:04 <b_jonas> I don't like radio controlled clocks
19:37:50 <ais523> in the UK there's a phone number you can dial for an accurate time signal spoken as words
19:38:10 <ais523> (humans have recorded a description for every time it can display, a computer replays the human speaking the time)
19:38:20 <ais523> but it's rarely useful nowadays now that NTP exists, and IIRC fairly expensive
19:38:44 <b_jonas> yes, that still exists in Hungary, and surprisingly it's a three digit phone number too
19:39:22 <b_jonas> it's useful because you can use it on dumb analog home phone lines when the electricity is out
19:39:44 <int-e> also, imagine you're blind and need to know the current time
19:39:54 <ais523> you would probably have a local speaking clock, wouldn't you?
19:40:04 <LKoen> I had a blind teacher who had a wristwatch
19:40:13 <LKoen> he would touch the hands of the watch to know the time
19:40:19 <b_jonas> yes, a local speaking clock on your mobile phone, because you don't want to pay for the telephone call every time
19:40:20 <int-e> Yes, there are devices for that. But that niche by itself should justify the 3 digit number :)
19:40:41 <ais523> I just tried running `date | espeak` but its default output format isn't great for speaking
19:40:45 <int-e> Even if it's not used much.
19:41:28 <int-e> b_jonas: Hah. Now imagine making that into a cloud service that calls that phone number once per minute, and replays the resulting recording to all the users of the app.
19:42:25 <int-e> . o O ( The sad part is that I can't rule out with certainty that this is being done. We build amazingly stupid things. )
19:42:41 <b_jonas> there are some other potentially useful but rarely used services that used to be available on dumb phone lines but have been discontinued since. I imagine the speaking clock service is very cheap to run now so there's not much incentive to discontinue it
19:43:47 <ais523> `date '+%H:%M:, %A %-d  %Y' | espeak`
19:43:48 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘'+%H:%M:\023, %A %-d \002 %Y' | espeak`’
19:43:59 <ais523> err, my client didn't interpret that well, n
19:44:00 <b_jonas> the Wikimedia Commons Picture of the Year competition round 1 voting is on, but I'm too tired to look through the images now. I'll have to remember to do that some time before the voting ends on 2020-03-22
19:44:13 <ais523> `quote privmsg #esoteric :date '+%H:%M:, %A %-d  %Y' | espeak
19:44:15 <HackEso> No output.
19:44:18 <ais523> date '+%H:%M:, %A %-d  %Y' | espeak
19:44:21 <ais523> there we go?
19:44:28 <LKoen> I don't know what's the command to make my computer speak
19:44:33 <ais523> apparently noy
19:44:33 <b_jonas> ais523: HackEso doesn't have a sound output
19:44:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I wasn't trying to run it
19:44:40 <ais523> just post it in IRC
19:44:45 <int-e> `date +%H:%M:%S, %A %-d  %Y
19:44:46 <HackEso> 19:44:46, Thursday 12  2020
19:44:50 <ais523> but apparently my client interprets escapes even in /quote
19:44:54 <LKoen> it has text-to-speech in system preferences / accessibility, but how to get it from terminal?
19:45:01 <ais523> date '+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y' | espeak
19:45:05 <ais523> there we go
19:45:22 <ais523> `date '+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y'
19:45:23 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘'+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y'’
19:45:29 <ais523> `` date '+%H:%M:%S, %A %-d %B %Y'
19:45:30 <HackEso> 19:45:29, Thursday 12 March 2020
19:45:40 <ais523> espeak is fairly good at pronouncing that format
19:46:15 <b_jonas> ais523: the actual speaking clock uses a different format including "half past" and "quarter to" and that sort of nonsense
19:46:32 <ais523> I didn't want an actual speaking clock-alike, just something I could tell the time from
19:46:41 <b_jonas> but we're slowly advancing towards using a proper positional number system 
19:46:55 <b_jonas> so we can just use %H:%M:%S now
19:47:27 <b_jonas> and more importantly, almost nobody writes months in roman numerals now, so that's one less format for months that I have to deal with
19:47:54 <b_jonas> but I still hate how months are sometimes named and almost no calendar lists both the name and the number of months
19:48:16 <ais523> hmm, if you're going to have a d:m:y date format, an h:m:s time format is inconsistent
19:48:20 <ais523> it should be s:m:h for consistency
19:48:38 <b_jonas> I never know what number of month August and September are
19:48:42 <ais523> I wonder why times are consistently big-endian, whereas big-endian dates are rarely used outside technology
19:48:52 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I'm using %Y-%m-%d date format
19:48:52 <ais523> 8 and 9 respectively
19:49:05 <ais523> I was thinking of my espeak date format
19:49:48 <b_jonas> time formats are not consistently big endian, because "quarter to five" is not big endian, nor is "12 PM"
19:50:01 <b_jonas> or "12:10 PM"
19:50:50 <b_jonas> as for datetime formats, you know which website I hate the most about that?
19:51:26 <ais523> hmm, I just realised that middle-endianness is actually really common in the real world
19:51:30 <ais523> after seeing all these examples
19:51:40 <ais523> I hadn't thought of AM/PM as a digit but of course it is
19:52:37 <b_jonas> the OOTS forums, not because "Today, 07:25 PM" is a really stupid datetime format, but because of the hypocricy: it says " (ISO 8601)" after each such timestamp and links to some webpage on W3C about what date formats you should use.
19:53:18 <b_jonas> and no, I checked https://forums.giantitp.com/profile.php?do=editoptions , you can change the time zone, but you can't change to a saner datetime format
19:54:05 <ais523> the only forum where I customized the date/time format (beyond changing the timezone) was mafiascum.net, which appears to allow all of strftime
19:54:17 <ais523> that was because the default format didn't show the seconds and they were often important
19:54:24 <b_jonas> if you follow the "show printable version" of thread link, that timestamp changes to "2020-03-12, 07:25 PM"
19:54:26 <zzo38> Yes, some web forums allow that customization and some dont.
19:54:34 <zzo38> That is one thing how NNTP is better. While it uses one date/time format, the client can reformat it for display.
19:54:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: I could technically have a custom client for these forums too
19:55:17 <b_jonas> but the problem is that phpBB's HTML format changes so often that you'd have to replace half of your client every year
19:55:28 <b_jonas> I've parsed phpBB forums multiple times, they're never the same
19:55:32 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, or a GreaseMonkey script, or whatever, but that isn't that good (including for the reason you specify, and others)
19:55:53 <ais523> I think it's open source, isn't it? you could try to upstream an API
19:56:24 <b_jonas> ais523: you can't even deterministically parse the "Today" or "Yesterday" datetime format when it's near a day boundary
19:56:46 <ais523> does it give you a better format when you mouse-hover it?
19:56:58 <b_jonas> ais523: not the OOTS server, no.
19:57:00 <ais523> on Reddit the default time format is very imprecise but it gives you a proper datestamp in the title field
19:57:01 <b_jonas> some other websites do
19:58:15 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't need an "API", those are for sites that use so much crazy javascript for rendering that the normal web output can't be parsed, with the website possibly trying to add extra restrictive terms for anyone using the API; phpBB isn't like that, the HTML can be parsed just fine, almost everything is represented in there, 
19:58:24 <b_jonas> it's just that they change the format every few years
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19:59:07 <ais523> b_jonas: well the point of the API is also to be stable and machine-parsable, avoiding the need to scrape
19:59:13 <b_jonas> I prefer websites where there's no separate API, instead the HTML format has reliable classes and other extra info that isn't necessarily used for rendering the default view, but reliable for anything you want to do client-side
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19:59:30 <b_jonas> ais523: an API, sure. those are fine. it's "API"s that I don't like.
19:59:34 <ais523> Wikipedia's pages are very scrapable and I've written a number of scripts to scrape them, yet it was nonetheless decided that an API would be useful and it is widely used
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19:59:54 <ais523> simply because it's less likely to break as a consequence of unrelated changes
20:00:03 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, mediawiki has the api.php which is mostly well designed, better than most others
20:00:10 <b_jonas> it's not perfect, but good enough
20:00:57 <b_jonas> I have used the mediawiki API for reading a few times, not yet for writing
20:01:42 <zzo38> I think it should be made to use NNTP; if a message is received by NNTP, the headers should be kept (including message ID if the client specifies one), and then decide how to render for the web interface (it should render the message as plain text, unless there is a "Content-type: text/markdown" header, perhaps); and then also implement other way around.
20:02:06 <zzo38> The web interface should also need to display the message ID and connection information, even if JavaScript and CSS are both disabled.
20:02:45 <arseniiv> once I considered making changes to espeak’s data to make it pronounce Russian better, but I think that’s a hard task without some software to help with editing and analyzing all the stuff e. g. in which direction vowel parameters should be changed, to not try all possible values in vain
20:03:30 <int-e> . o O ( esqueak )
20:04:02 <ais523> espeak is one of those programs which I would /expect/ to be almost impenetrable to someone not familiar with the code
20:04:26 <b_jonas> by the way, the IOCCC submission deadline is coming soon
20:04:26 <ais523> because it's trying to do something that, for most humans, would be poorly defined and very difficult to express rigorously
20:04:33 <ais523> oh, it's open again?
20:04:36 <b_jonas> yes
20:04:41 <ais523> I probably won't have a submission for this year
20:04:45 <arseniiv> and also this usually requires extending the dictionary with many rare wordforms
20:04:49 <ais523> I had a great idea a number of years ago but never had time to work on it
20:04:58 <ais523> (and another great idea a number of years ago which GregorR used to win)
20:05:40 <int-e> it's closing in a few days anyway
20:05:41 <b_jonas> I have a few IOCCC ideas, but most probably wouldn't work, and I didn't have the energy to work on the remaining ones
20:05:58 <b_jonas> if I felt like working on them, I wouldn't care about the deadline, because it's a recurring event now
20:06:15 <b_jonas> it doesn't matter much if I can only submit something two years later and it's judged two years after that
20:06:24 <b_jonas> well, it can matter a little
20:06:26 <b_jonas> but not too much
20:06:34 <arseniiv> ais523: ah, I didn’t mean the code, the language properties are defined in separate files
20:06:42 <ais523> arseniiv: those too
20:06:58 <arseniiv> yeah their format is quite complex I think
20:07:29 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it has to be. languages are complex if you want to text to speech them.
20:07:42 <zzo38> I have done some changes with espeak files before
20:07:53 <ais523> languages are complex full stop, apart from a few conlangs and computer languages
20:07:58 <arseniiv> and also there are the recordings for consonants, which also can require meddling with. Though the vowels may come first
20:08:02 <ais523> this is because information is complex
20:08:10 <ais523> and languages are about expressing information
20:08:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: are they domain-specific words, possibly acronyms, added to the dictionary with custom pronunciations
20:08:19 <arseniiv> yeah languages are a ton of complexity on so many levels
20:09:15 <zzo38> I did not do dictionary modification, just the speech modification
20:09:39 <arseniiv> though phonetics per se is not that complex, but even this one task, of representing an appropriate average phonetic invertory for a dialect, may be rendered hard to do, as in espeak
20:10:02 <b_jonas> "invertory"
20:10:07 <arseniiv> phonology is where things become more complex, and mapping from the written text, still more
20:10:57 <zzo38> Now I wonder if a file can be written for clock speech
20:11:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's an old IOCCC entry for that
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20:20:40 <arseniiv> I’m almost jealous for Spanish where marking accent is for what I know mandatory
20:21:39 <arseniiv> haha I accidentally forgot to pay to my ISP, here now take my money and give me #esotetic back
20:22:53 <arseniiv> and this post hadn’t even gone through:
20:22:59 <arseniiv> and with languages having accent which jumps here and there and isn’t usually marked in the text, oh. A dictionary wouldn’t solve annotating accents as this may require parsing the actual syntax to make out which of homographic words each one is. Happily, espeak allows to mark accents manually, and happily, Russian has only one kind of accent and no tones
20:24:33 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> "invertory" => hm? :)
20:27:02 <b_jonas> ¿„invertory„?
20:28:00 <int-e> arseniiv: you typoed that one first
20:28:19 <arseniiv> ww… why
20:28:32 <arseniiv> I’ll consult my dictionary one sec
20:28:44 <arseniiv> ah I see
20:29:18 <arseniiv> a sneaky one. I haven’t even noticed something’s wrong
20:31:31 <b_jonas> ais523: did you at least notice "#esotetic"?
20:32:37 <arseniiv> lol
20:33:13 <arseniiv> (but why ais52̈3)
20:33:31 <ais523> I wasn't paying attention to the channel
20:33:33 <ais523> I'm not, most of the time
20:33:41 <ais523> although I'll catch up on scrollback on occasion
20:34:28 <b_jonas> argh sorry
20:34:35 <b_jonas> I should stop tab-expanding the wrong person
20:36:03 <arseniiv> hehe
20:36:21 <b_jonas> `? torgle
20:36:23 <HackEso> torgle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:37:18 <arseniiv> `? perl
20:37:19 <HackEso> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
20:37:25 <arseniiv> makes sense
20:38:13 <arseniiv> someone has non-secret plans for 2020-04-01?
20:38:32 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'll be reading the SIGBOVIK proceedings probably
20:39:01 <arseniiv> oh I forgot about that, I should make a bookmark
20:42:11 <arseniiv> but I meant, have you planned something impure, i. e. effectful
20:43:07 <int-e> `? plans
20:43:08 <HackEso> plans? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:45:34 <arseniiv> for my part I’m still to have an idea from somewhere. Unfruitful. No flashy philosophic zen esolang ideas too. Completely unacceptable
20:46:19 <arseniiv> though maybe an esolang utilizing exitwhen only, but I’m not confident that’s possible
20:47:46 <arseniiv> and also obviously exitwhen is a local construct, and the corresponding global thing is simply algebraic effects (if one treats exitwhen in an extended sense)
20:48:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's a Wednesday so I'll go to the swimming pool. how much do viruses survive in a chlorinated swimming pool? because infecting others or getting infected could be impure.
20:49:09 <b_jonas> wait, is it a wednesday?
20:49:16 <b_jonas> let me recheck
20:49:27 <arseniiv> hopefully that kind of impure wouldn’t happen to any of us!
20:49:39 <b_jonas> `datei 2020-04-01
20:49:40 <HackEso> 2020-04-01 00:00:00.000 +0000 UTC April 1 Wednesday 2020-W14-3
20:49:46 <b_jonas> yes, wednesday
20:55:33 <b_jonas> fungot, are you a mad scientist, called mad by the world?
20:55:33 <fungot> b_jonas: have to go pick up tomorrow without any pain at all and defer you to write the procedure f which i just can't
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21:07:03 <ais523> b_jonas: I habituallly use two context characters when nickpinging someone
21:07:22 <b_jonas> WHOA I just found a useful feature in the UI of this phone
21:07:36 <b_jonas> still sucks in general, just slightly less than I thought
21:07:57 <b_jonas> ais523: um, what do you mean by "two context characters"?
21:10:47 <ais523> the first two characters
21:11:03 <ais523> sometimes you can nickping someone with just tab, but the IRC client needs to guess a lot in that case
21:11:20 <ais523> I just tried it out and it guessed "b_jonas:" which seems like a reasonable guess in the circumstances
21:11:30 <b_jonas> ah, tab expansion
22:10:07 <arseniiv> in the meantime I hypothesize a concatenative language with dynamic-typed effects and handlers *rofl*
22:11:16 <arseniiv> though I think I’m doing something wrong as I came to need an additional `unhandle` primitive to be able to represent rethrowing an exception, when treating throwing exceptions as a type of effect
22:11:55 <arseniiv> or else the code would try to handle an exception thrown in the handler by that same handler
22:13:45 <arseniiv> . o O ( tab expansion makes your tabs 8 characters wide )
22:14:17 <arseniiv> tabstops*
22:17:27 <arseniiv> I thought I would be able to represent alg. datatypes and matching on their values via this effect framework, but it seems impossible. Their analogy is not of this kind
22:24:05 <arseniiv> hm or maybe with quasiquoting and making a set of data constructors separate from effect constructors one could go Scott on them: a data constructor DataX takes the corresponding number of values v1, …, vn from the stack and pushes a quote [ v1 … vn EffectX ]. Then a match construct pops a quote and evaluates it in the context of an effect handler corresponding to this data type. Hm but if one tries to handle a wrong value, it can be 
22:24:05 <arseniiv> handled with some outer matching construct not intended to do so. Though that’s a pretty esotetic behaviour
22:24:15 <arseniiv> and again that typo
22:25:20 <arseniiv> do you like this? (not “esotetic” but data via effects)
22:28:52 <arseniiv> come to this, it may as well be called Esotetic Invertory
22:29:09 <arseniiv> this hypothetical language
22:32:41 <arseniiv> but I’m lazy to write many things needed for that to work at all: a basic stack language, quotes, quasiquoting, dictionary literals (maybe as a kind of macro), a couple of basic datatypes for making IO with, and also a symbol datatype too, for specifying effect names and constructors in handlers
22:33:18 <arseniiv> though one can do with integer indices for constructors, and then arrays instead of dictionaries. Hmm…
22:37:24 <b_jonas> arseniiv: modify an existing langauge then?
22:38:03 <arseniiv> b_jonas: it may be more tedious as I would need to understand how it works first
22:38:22 <arseniiv> I think I can minimize this thing sufficiently, though
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22:50:04 <int-e> . o O ( I hate email )
22:52:55 <oerjan> are the logs down
22:55:45 <arseniiv> suppose one can push not only a fresh quote by using `[ ... ]` but also push a function pointer by just writing `'word` or something. Then I can make effect types into plain words, and effect constructor will just push that “effect quote” and an additional index. A handler will be able first to compare the pointer to the one it’s supposed to handle, and if it’s OK, it’ll apply it to the constructor index and select the handling 
22:55:45 <arseniiv> path based on the result
22:55:45 <arseniiv> all that requires way less primitives but it can be wrapped gracefully. An effect constructor wrapper would just place an effect quote and index on the stack and call an universal `effect` primitive which would find a nearest correct handler nearest to the top of the call stack, slice a continuation, push it under those two valuesm call the handler etc. etc.
22:55:45 <arseniiv> though I’d be more glad if I’ll come up with something neater than arbitrary values to represent effect constructors. Or I should reject constructors altogether and think of that value as an argument. Hm but that way one could make it to shift/reset and this is too far
22:59:33 <oerjan> hm i think my net connection is dead slow
23:02:47 <arseniiv> oerjan: at least alternative logs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D do work. The primary ones don’t load for me right now too, but approx. 2 hours ago they did
23:03:49 <oerjan> i got the tunes
23:09:23 <ais523> <oerjan> are the logs down ← stalker mode is still updating live
23:09:49 <ais523> but I can't load the page in a new tab
23:09:58 <ais523> so I think the logs are updating but the webserver hosting them is having issues
23:10:39 <ais523> 504, apparently
23:14:17 <int-e> (re: email, but it turns out that poking people via email is more effective than leaving them reports on github)
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2020-03-13:

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00:23:44 <arseniiv> int-e: what have you poke them with?
00:26:30 <int-e> pointy letters and rount letters
00:26:35 <int-e> round even
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00:32:46 <fizzie> The web thing's been a little flaky occasionally. I was meant to debug it, but haven't managed to.
00:33:29 <fizzie> Should be back now.
00:33:42 <fizzie> ...or maybe not.
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00:34:44 <fizzie> Well, at least it's started to hang up kind of consistently.
00:35:44 <fizzie> I think chances are there's some bug in the websocket-based stalker mode that manages to hang up the regular request processing, even though it's not supposed to.
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00:36:30 <fizzie> When I restart it, it works for a bit, until there's a new stalker mode connection, and then it stops working again.
00:39:07 <fizzie> Might have something to do with there being two active stalkers at the same time, that's probably not something I actually tested.
00:52:25 <MTGBusyBeaver42> ais523: looking at your WiP proof for 10 waterclocks, I'm not familiar with the language you are implementing, but it looks like the idea is to use that language to implement a cyclic tag system and prove TC that way,
00:53:05 <ais523> 2-tag, but yes
00:53:44 <MTGBusyBeaver42> the eso wiki says not all variants of high rise are TC, what makes this implementation one of the TC ones?
00:54:33 <ais523> it's pretty easy to implement High Rise variants in The Waterfall Model, the hard part is to aim for a TC variant
00:54:45 <ais523> I erred on the side of implementing a more powerful variant to make almost certain that it's TC
00:55:04 <ais523> (you can implement a simpler variant that /might/ be TC with 8 waterclocks, I added two extra here to more or less totally make sure)
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00:55:35 <ais523> to prove this particular Waterfall machine TC, you have to do two things, prove it implements that particular High Rise variant, and prove the variant TC
00:56:01 <ais523> it's only a WIP proof because I haven't done either half yet, I'm currently working on the second half (when I'm working on something that isn't my day job)
00:56:50 <MTGBusyBeaver42> yeah, it looks like implementing it in TWM isnt asking for anything TWM has a hard time doing
00:57:17 <ais523> it's the use of the E' waterclock that makes it almost certainly TC, its purpose is to outright skip every second 2 in the High Rise data string
00:57:45 <ais523> that gives us the one bit of state that you need to add to 1-tag to make it TC, so the only remaining hurdle is to prove that the rest of the language can implement 1-tag
00:58:44 <ais523> I may as well write my thoughts on that up here, too: the only thing that determines where new 2s are added in the data string is the distance between two (non-ignored) 2s scrolling off the data string
00:59:18 <ais523> the basic idea is to use two sorts of distances, small distances which also happen to be odd numbers, and large distances which also happen to be even numbers
00:59:40 <ais523> then small distances push the corresponding large distances onto the data string, large distances push a string of small distances onto the data string
01:00:17 <ais523> for the latter, you have a block of 1s in one half of the data string that matches up to the pattern you want (made of 1s) in the other half
01:00:52 <ais523> for the former, you have a sequence 101010101010101… in one half of the data string against a 1 in the other that adds up to a 2 only if you have a small (thus odd) distance
01:01:17 <ais523> and a few sporadic 1s in both halves which match up only when using a specific small distance
01:01:40 <ais523> err, I don't mean one half of the data string, I mean one half of the geometric sequence
01:01:52 <ais523> the ratio between successive elements is a very large power of 3
01:02:01 <ais523> and the two halves are around 3^n and 3^(n+1)
01:02:11 <ais523> actually this proof uses 9 rather than 3 but it's the same principle
01:02:33 <ais523> I probably haven't explained this very well, it'll probably be better to write it up as an actual proof, or else write a compiler
01:02:36 <ais523> to make it more formal
01:03:13 <MTGBusyBeaver42> thanks, this did actually help, high-rise is wierd
01:04:44 <ais523> it's funny, in the early history of esolangs, people made things like INTERCAL and Malbolge which were weird on purpose, for the sake of weirdness
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01:05:07 <ais523> and nowadays, when we look into the simplest, most fundamental available tarpits, we get just as much weirdness but it's naturally occurring
01:05:54 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Yeah I actually was looking at 3-star programmer randomly like a year ago
01:06:47 <ais523> there's a High Rise language in base 2, with carries allowed, which uses a blank sequence for 0 and a geometric (not interleaved-geometric) sequence for 1 which I'm genuinely not sure whether it's TC or not, it seems so close to being TC but I can't quite make it work
01:06:49 <MTGBusyBeaver42> so wierd for operations like that to be TC
01:08:26 <ais523> it gets easier once you realise that you can set things up so that some of the addresses are constants that always point to the same place, that effectively lets you get rid of stars when you don't want them
01:08:50 <ais523> it doesn't seem that ridiculous to me that a program based on ++*k, ++**k, ++***k can be TC for constant k
01:09:27 <ais523> only having increments available for writing and only having dereferences available for reading is painful, but by keeping regimented control over the whole of memory, it's not /that/ bad
01:11:35 <MTGBusyBeaver42> yeah, it is still bizarre to think about, more common operations like XOR are a lot easier to understand why.
01:12:18 <ais523> actually I think the hardest part with Three Star Programmer (and with the I/D machine) is that every statement has to increment /something/ so you need to find a lot of useless variables to throw your increments away in
01:13:12 <ais523> the TC proof for the I/D machine goes to the effort of setting up a queue that's never read from, just so that it can write to it the same way that it writes to the queue that it does use, thus vastly reducing the number of writes that need to be special-cased to sometimes write to somewhere useless
01:13:51 <ais523> this is a common trick in esoprogramming, I think, creating a dummy data structure that's just like your real, useful data structure so that you can throw away unwanted writes without using a conditional
01:14:02 <ais523> it was invented by Donald Knuth when he was programming in INTERCAL
01:15:16 <MTGBusyBeaver42> yeah I've definitely seen it before.
01:15:54 <MTGBusyBeaver42> anyway back to TWM->high-rise -> 2-tag -> TM
01:16:31 <MTGBusyBeaver42> what approximate ratio do we need in TWM to get an X state TM?
01:16:49 <ais523> let's see: a TWM program is defined by zeroing triggers and initial values
01:16:54 <ais523> and number of waterclocks
01:16:57 <ais523> the number of waterclocks is fixed
01:17:14 <ais523> the initial values could be small because 2-tag is good at bootstrapping itself
01:17:42 <ais523> (by "small" I mean in the 1000-10000 range, although you could add an additional waterclock if you needed them smaller)
01:18:06 <ais523> the zeroing triggers are mostly small but a few of them will be enormous, encoding the High Rise program that encodes the 2-tag program that encodes the TM
01:18:11 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Initial values are the same cost as the transitions
01:18:19 <ais523> right, that doesn't surprise me
01:19:34 <ais523> the size of the zeroing triggers will be a small multiple of the ratio of the High Rise geometric series times the base of High Rise geometric series, as a number
01:19:45 <ais523> but the 2-tag translation sees it as a string of digits
01:19:51 <ais523> which we'll be converting into a number using base 9
01:20:51 <ais523> the length of the string, I suspect is roughly quadratic in the number of colors of the 2-tag system (the length of the productions obviously also matters but it's only linear in those, so the number of colors probably dominates)
01:21:21 <ais523> so we have a number of the form 9^(2^colors)
01:21:34 <ais523> this is larger than most reasonable one-arrow numbers, but smaller than almost all two-arrow numbers
01:21:46 <ais523> wait, no
01:21:58 <ais523> it's 9^(colors^2 * constant) which is much smaller
01:22:21 <ais523> it's large as one-arrow numbers go, but perhaps in reach, and thus easily dominated by two-arrow numbers
01:22:47 <ais523> the question is, how large of a 2-tag system do you need to implement a UTM
01:23:13 <ais523> and I don't know that part because the 2-tag-from-UTM translation isn't one that I've personally worked on
01:23:49 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Well there are some pretty small UTMs
01:24:34 <ais523> there's a paper covering this but it isn't publicly available
01:24:53 <ais523> so I can't just look up the complexity
01:25:07 <ais523> ofc, the simpler the UTM, the larger the encoding of its input you typically need
01:26:43 <ais523> so the busy beaver function for a given UTM will grow more slowly the simpler the UTM is (although not much more slowly because busy beaver functions grow faster than anything computable, so they're all pretty fast)
01:26:44 <MTGBusyBeaver42> wait we dont need a UTM, we can encode the TM busy beaver as the 2-tag program
01:27:22 <ais523> right; and in fact you could encode a Waterfall Model busy beaver which would probably be busier (it would have to be at least as busy)
01:27:50 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Yeah once we iterate the conversion doesn't particularly matter
01:27:57 <ais523> it's an interesting problem because you need to show that the UTM exists in order to prove that the busy beaver function grows quickly, but the busiest beaver probably won't use one at all
01:28:40 <ais523> hmm, or maybe it will? that's an interesting question in its own right
01:29:05 <ais523> (and one that's very hard to answer because finding busy beavers is almost impossible even for very small machines)
01:29:51 <ais523> hey, #esoteric regulars: if you have a language that is sub-TC, does that imply that finding busy beavers for it is computable? or can a language be sub-TC and yet have an uncomputable halting problem?
01:30:02 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Yeah, though how to define the size of a TWM busy beaver something like (Clocks, Max size)
01:30:23 <ais523> "number of Plant tokens required to set it up"
01:30:31 <MTGBusyBeaver42> yes
01:33:01 <MTGBusyBeaver42> if Flooding Waterfall Machines have real busy beavers then we can have a lot more freedom in the setup and probably get an extra layer of iterations too
01:33:50 <ais523> well, 10 waterclocks + a number of flooding clocks is going to give you much busier beavers, because you can write a UTM using the 10 waterclocks, and use the flooding clocks as additional storage that naturally tends to explode
01:34:11 <ais523> if all your waterclocks are flooding, I'm still unsure what happens
01:34:53 <ais523> I think the best way to think about the flooding version of the language is that the zeroing triggers actually run every cycle, but their effects don't become visible until their clock zeroes
01:35:22 <ais523> but that way of thinking about it hasn't helped me much with actually programming in the language :-D
01:37:57 <MTGBusyBeaver42> yeah, either way of thinking about it, there's not really a good way to encode the values, due to combining multiplication and addition/subtraction
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02:37:07 <ais523> MTGBusyBeaver42: you should point out to the thread that Battletide Alchemist doesn't work if there's any way to have it on the field when setting up a double-Arcbond (even among your own creatures); you can use the optional damage prevention to make the loop run for a set, unlimited number of iterations
02:38:11 <ais523> like, the idea is that you make the opponent gain loop each iteration but don't use it yourself, set up a trivial infinite loop, run yourself out of life via choosing not to use Battletide Alchemist after a chosen number of iterations in order to deal a chosen amount of damage to the opponent
02:39:28 <ais523> although, I think it isn't being used anyway in the current versions
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02:42:20 <zzo38> "There's a reason the comprehensive rules and errata for Magic: The Gathering is hundreds of pages long and reads like a federal tax code" I don't think so; the tax code is much more confusing.
03:15:20 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Well the score is actually how negative their life goes, not the total dealt.
03:16:49 <MTGBusyBeaver42> is the federal tax code TC?
03:19:12 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70265&oldid=68026 * Felixcesar15 * (-2131) New instruction set
03:20:50 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70266&oldid=70265 * Felixcesar15 * (-49) 
03:25:43 <zzo38> I don't know, but that is independent.
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08:42:49 <b_jonas> ais523: "can a language be sub-TC and yet have an uncomputable halting problem?" => certainly. just take a language that is like a normal TC language but the programs are encrypted with a random function that is very uncomputable in both directions. basically just take a random language that has no rules to it.
08:44:10 <b_jonas> like, the encryption isn't uncomputable because of some fancy complexity theory reason, only because by cardinality reasons most functions are uncomputable.
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09:45:05 <Cale> Can an actually-implementable language be sub-TC and have an uncomputable halting problem?
09:45:59 <Cale> It seems likely to me
09:46:38 <Cale> Just saying "this thing has an uncomputable halting problem" doesn't feel like it should get you Turing completeness for free.
09:47:19 <Taneb> A program p in Language P does no computation and halts if and only if p doesn't halt
09:48:23 <Cale> Haha
09:49:25 <Cale> That sounds more like a description of a language with no correct implementation.
09:49:42 <Cale> But I can see what you're trying to do :)
09:53:09 <Cale> Maybe just take a single Turing machine whose halting already can't be decided... say it searches for a proof of a contradiction in our metatheory, and then define a language with but a single program whose implementation is that machine.
09:57:12 <kritixilithos> maybe for a particular program of this language, it runs the input as a TM, and after the completion of execution (if it does halt), the program returns 0
09:57:33 <Cale> Oh, that's a good one
09:58:29 <Cale> Just take any ordinary Turing complete language and make sure it can't produce any interesting output other than whether it terminated.
10:00:34 <Taneb> I think that might be too easy to argue it's not turing complete
10:00:40 <Taneb> It can semi-decide any semi-decidable language
10:01:01 <Cale> Well, it's supposed to not be Turing complete
10:01:17 <Cale> But have an uncomputable halting problem
10:02:00 <Cale> Of course, you might be able to also hope for a more practical language that could be used to solve a wider range of problems...
10:02:58 <Cale> Like, it should maybe contain a consistent type theory as a sublanguage.
10:02:58 <Taneb> I mean, argue it is turing complete
10:04:03 <Cale> Well, you can't solve most ordinary decision problems
10:04:15 <Cale> Like, the problem of whether the number on input is even
10:04:22 <Cale> You can only semi-decide it
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11:28:04 <cpressey> Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming libation design, development, and deployment!
11:29:03 <wib_jonas> libation design
11:30:55 <cpressey> This theme and variations will continue until someone fixes the topic.
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12:12:22 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70267&oldid=70263 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Syntax */
12:14:16 <Taneb> `? go
12:14:19 <HackEso> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
12:18:11 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70268&oldid=70267 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+271) /* Syntax */
12:19:11 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70269&oldid=70268 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* Syntax */
12:27:11 <int-e> cpressey: so no incentive to change anything then
12:27:43 <int-e> `'
12:27:44 <HackEso> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it  <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
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12:34:59 <arseniiv> is there a nonstandard model of natural numbers in a Heyting arithmetic (this is an intuitionistic counterpart to Peano arithmetic)
12:36:42 <int-e> arseniiv: Just take any classical non-standard model?
12:37:15 <arseniiv> though I should first find and understand what is a model of an intuitionistic first-order theory
12:38:17 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah I thought that could be the case but there’s a strange lack of mentions of nonstandard models for the case so I thought maybe there’s something interesting going on
12:38:31 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I think there's somethink like models in intuitionistic logic but it's much more complicated than ordinary models
12:40:27 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kripke_semantics ... but this only seems necessary if you want to capture the lack of excluded middle in the semantics, which seems unnecessary if you just want a non-standard model.
12:41:04 <int-e> (Insofar as the term makes any sense at all... I mean, what is /the/ standard model anyway if you don't have the law of excluded middle?)
12:48:35 <arseniiv> int-e: for a formula A without quantifiers, in Heyting arithmetic it’s provable A ∨ ¬A, so in particular equality of terms is decidable so the usual standard model should suffice if elevated to an intuitionistic model (in a way I don’t know yet)
12:53:18 <arseniiv> (also it makes sense that in a constructive world there should be the standard natural numbers thing: where at all if not here? Though this isn’t an argument at all as I heard in type theories there are still issues analogous to nonstandard elements, but they aren’t as visible or petrifying)
12:54:49 <int-e> so does that make the standard model of natural numbers a non-standard model :P
12:56:03 <int-e> . o O ( And just to add to the fun, it could still not be non-standard. )
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13:22:57 <wib_jonas> int-e: *the* standard model is probaby still the classical logic one in which the exculded middle happens to hold, which intuitionistic logic still supports as a special case, or so this person with his traditional classical logic habits thinks
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13:31:10 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1102) Created page with "'''2KWLang''' (short for 2-Keyword Language) is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Syntax== There are only two keywords in this language, as the name implies, a..."
13:38:38 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70271&oldid=69138 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+303) /* 2KWLang */
13:40:13 <esowiki> [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70272&oldid=70270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+540) /* Quine (maybe cheating) */
13:51:09 <cpressey> So we have lots of esolangs where we guess they are Turing-complete, and some where we even have informal proofs that they're TC. Do we have any where we have a formal, machine-checkable proof that it's TC?
13:52:35 <wib_jonas> cpressey: probably not machine-checkable, because nobody bothers to write those
13:53:01 <wib_jonas> but I can point to at least two books about theory of algorithms with formal proofs
14:00:37 <wib_jonas> cpressey: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine says "A proof of Turing-completeness is also given in the textbook ...", this is an important TC-ness theorem, because we often prove TC-ness by compiling Minsky machines (with a fixed number of counters) to an esolang
14:00:49 <wib_jonas> there are other similar classical computational models
14:02:59 <arseniiv> that reminds me I haven’t finished a Python module with utilities for working with generalized Minsky machines. Maybe I should start a C# module for that instead
14:06:31 <arseniiv> more like a reference implementation of the algorithm deciding whether an “algebraic type universe” is infinite and constructing a term and an unary function to realize Z and S
14:07:16 <int-e> fungot: have you stocked up on toilet paper?
14:07:16 <fungot> int-e: this is what you're trying to do, is to load it
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14:16:55 <ais523> cpressey: the proofs have varying levels of formality, I'm not sure if any are machine-checkable
14:17:06 <wib_jonas> ah yes, cpressey summoned ais
14:17:25 <ais523> I have actually started writing TC proofs for a couple of esolangs in Agda, but abandoned them pretty early
14:17:38 <int-e> cpressey: This kind of stuff is really tedious, hard to justify the effort (unless you do it just for fun).
14:17:43 <ais523> it's not an easy sort of thing to translate into Agda
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14:18:07 <ais523> I was considering joining
14:18:17 <wib_jonas> the problem is that a lot of these proofs are really hairy, because eg. when you want to simulate a RAM machine with a turing machine, you need to be able to move all symbols on the tape to insert a space and get back to that space and copy all these move routines multiple times in the turing machine program so that you can return to the previous
14:18:17 <wib_jonas> state, 
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14:18:36 <ais523> I felt we needed a fourth d word
14:18:54 <wib_jonas> and be able to store numbers on the tape, and copy or compare numbers between faraway palces in the tape, etc
14:19:11 <ais523> right, I was concentrating mostly on simulating one queue-based language with another
14:19:17 <ais523> but even that is hard to prove things about in Agda
14:19:47 <int-e> I have a formalization that Minsky Machines can implement recursive functions in Isabelle/HOL. That went fairly well, but it's a really nice programming model compared to many esolangs.
14:20:23 <int-e> For example it's very easy to compose Minsky machines; just rename the states apart and add a few glue transitions.
14:20:47 <wib_jonas> and then you want to prove that you can translate a structured program (with if blocks, while blocks, function definitions and non-recursive function calls) to a finite control structure (either with a state for each possible call stack in the original program, or by storing return addresses as data);
14:21:02 <wib_jonas> then you want to prove the same thing for programs with recursive calls too; etc
14:21:03 <int-e> (And I did not impose any bound on the number of registers)
14:22:15 <wib_jonas> and then that you can translate a language that has closures (like lambda expressions) to a language that doesn't have closures but has recursive calls
14:22:30 <wib_jonas> there's a step between, that you can simulate function pointers
14:22:59 <wib_jonas> there are a lot of "high-level" abstractions in real programming languages that you need to be able to prove that a simple computation model can simulate
14:24:14 <int-e> You have to consider that each of these "simple steps" probably involves defining an intermediate language, a semantics for it, a translation, and proofs that the translation preserves the semantics, all for something that we can handwave through in a couple of lines of text.
14:24:26 <int-e> (Because it's highly intuitive.)
14:24:48 <wib_jonas> yeah
14:25:23 <wib_jonas> you have to define the translation of the intermediate states, and prove that each step preserves that translation, translating the effect of a step of one machine to the effect of a step of the other machine
14:26:03 <wib_jonas> of course it's more likely multiple steps of one machine
14:46:21 <cpressey> Is #coq a moderated channel? I tried to ask a question there but got "Cannot send to nick/channel".
14:46:38 <ais523> you can try writing /mode #coq while you're there
14:46:50 <cpressey> afaict it's mode is [+cnt] and afaict that does not mean it's moderated
14:46:50 <ais523> that should give you full information on what channel modes might prevent you sending there
14:47:24 <ais523> hmm, perhaps you're banned from it (although you're unlikely to be banned personally, this could happen as a result of a ban that matches on characteristics other than nick/ident/IP)
14:47:52 <wib_jonas> cpressey: are you logged in to nickserv? a lot of channels ban everyone who isn't logged in to nickserv
14:48:08 <cpressey> int-e: Do you know anything about extraction in Coq?
14:48:12 <ais523> err, muted, not banned
14:48:18 <ais523> if you were banned you wouldn't be able to join it
14:48:30 <int-e> cpressey: nothing beyond the term
14:49:25 <cpressey> OK. It's a really simple question, I expect I already know the answer, it would be nice to have it confirmed but I'll just keep reading and I'll eventually know
14:49:31 <int-e> cpressey: Meaning I think I know what it is abstractly, but not how it's done.
14:51:21 <cpressey> int-e: Well, it's this: Coq is guaranteed to terminate. Are the programs extracted from Coq also guaranteed to terminate?
14:51:31 <cpressey> I think it's "yes"
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14:57:16 <int-e> cpressey: I think so too (though you can mess up the setup)
15:03:35 <cpressey> Yeah, you can do some low-level things and mess it up. What I'm thinking though, is more like: you can't extract a Turing-complete interpreter from a Coq proof. You could extract a compiler, though.
15:06:29 <int-e> Uh, but there's a loophole there.
15:06:34 <int-e> Namely, codata
15:09:12 <int-e> (co)data Res a = Continue (Res a) | Return a
15:09:46 <int-e> Whatever that is in Coq, I haven't ventured there.
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15:15:35 <cpressey> Is that a good loophole or a bad loophole
15:17:52 <cpressey> Or, to put it another way...
15:18:27 <int-e> It's a good one?
15:18:56 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70273&oldid=70269 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Fix category link
15:19:08 <cpressey> My understanding of it is bad though
15:19:29 <int-e> The corresponding function Res a -> a is still not total.
15:20:08 <cpressey> We can't extract an big-step interpreter, but we can extract a single-step interpreter that we can iterate as much or as little as we like?
15:20:09 <int-e> The corrsponding notion to termination for codata is productivity: The outermost constructor is produced in finite time.
15:20:19 <int-e> Yes.
15:23:42 <cpressey> OK.
15:33:44 <ais523> cpressey: my Agda interpreters for TC languages had a cycle limit and got around the no-nonprovably-halting-programs restriction that way
15:34:05 <ais523> you proved two languages were equivalent by proving that if one halted after some number of cycles, the other would also halt after some number of cycles
15:42:01 <ais523> (and vice versa)
15:42:50 <wib_jonas> makes sense
15:48:09 <cpressey> OK. There would also seem to be a stronger definition of equivalence, where their behaviours have some correspondence regardless of whether they halt or not.
16:03:13 <wib_jonas> cpressey: yes, and you almost certainly have to use such a stronger equivalence statement in the induction part of the proof of the weaker equivalence
16:08:03 <wib_jonas> cpressey: if you want to see formal a simulation proof, I have one written down in detail at http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2017-08.html%23d.2017-08-18.2460#comment-23792 , and this is an easy one, because the languages it talks about ((1) with arrays and (1)) are both
16:08:03 <wib_jonas> high-level and similar, so there's no messing about with low level details like how to copy a variable length string in a one-tape Turing machine
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16:09:53 <wib_jonas> but even then I omit a lot of fiddly details that you'd have to expand on if you wanted a machine language proof
16:20:31 <cpressey> wib_jonas: OK, thanks.
16:22:02 <wib_jonas> and even there I'm lucky because (1) supports early function returns from inside loops, which simplifies the human-readable description a lot
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16:29:12 <arseniiv> codata above reminded me about how I tried to invent what a coeffect should look like when I couldn’t sleep the day before. Does anybody knows if coeffects are at all considered somewhere?
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16:31:24 <wib_jonas> is that the dual of when nsiders are effected?
16:34:05 <MTGBusyBeaver42> Regarding the non-TC halting problem I'd argue that forcing the output to be 0 is not enough to force something sub TC, as we also get how long it took to terminate.
16:34:20 <arseniiv> I thought something like: in an effectful computation, one can choose and use effect constructors as many times as they like, and in an effect handler, one “deconstructs” exactly one effect and they don’t choose which one, so a coeffectful computation may be where one uses a coeffect constructor just once and doesn’t choose which and a coeffect (co?)handler allows one to pick how many coeffects to eliminate. Looks like gibberish
16:35:11 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: hmmm?
16:35:52 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: sorry. stupid joke like the one about how cocoa is really just a
16:35:54 <wib_jonas> `? cocoa
16:35:56 <HackEso> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
16:37:05 <arseniiv> wib_jonas: ah, “considers”. I thought it’s a special spelling of “insiders” but didn’t understand why
16:37:44 <arseniiv> though I don’t, still :D
16:38:00 <wib_jonas> no, that one is about Darth Sidious
16:38:02 <arseniiv> I like co jokes but hadn’t got this one
16:38:10 <arseniiv> hm
16:44:54 <ais523> arseniiv: IIRC coeffects are a real area of research that's quite busy
16:45:01 <ais523> I think I've met people who work on them
16:45:29 <ais523> they're the sort of thing that you use comonads to implement, just like you can use monads to implement effects
16:45:44 <ais523> and normally correspond to some sort of resource that is consumed by a computation
16:45:57 <arseniiv> ais523: do you know an expository paper or something?
16:46:12 <ais523> I was hoping there'd be a Wikipedia article but there isn't
16:46:16 <wib_jonas> .oO(if coeffects is a busy area with lots of researchers, then the coronavirus spreads there, so the ronavirus... nah, it doesn't work)
16:46:44 <arseniiv> (yeah I thought about comonads and resources/contexts but inside one head in the early morning it’s not that fruitful)
16:48:30 <arseniiv> I also imagined what it would do with a call stack but the result was of a mixed usefulness too
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16:52:35 <ais523> arseniiv: try this: http://tomasp.net/blog/2014/why-coeffects-matter/
16:52:48 <ais523> sorry for not answering earlier, I was reading it first to make sure that the author actually understood the subject, but he does
16:55:29 <ais523> (it strikes me that linking a random coeffect tutorial would have had the same risks as linking a random monad tutorial, but fewer people seem to write coeffect tutorials so they're probably of higher average quality)
16:55:39 <ais523> that said, the post does remind me a lot of a monad tutorial :-D
16:56:27 <MTGBusyBeaver42> "co-" is a common prefix, so I'm confident that constant concentrated comedy (contingent on contex of course) could confound/confuse the constituents in the conversation
16:56:41 <ais523> it's a running joke in #esoteric
16:56:42 <wib_jonas> what if you link to the Typeclassopedia instead, since that's known to be a good book? https://wiki.haskell.org/Typeclassopedia#Comonad
16:57:10 <ais523> wib_jonas: that doesn't explain much about why you'd use them
16:57:22 <wib_jonas> true, but it links to references about comonads
16:57:28 <wib_jonas> presumably those are pre-vetted
16:58:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> I almost posted it like this: "-" is a mmon prefix, so I'm nfident that nstant ncentrated medy (ntingent on ntex of urse) uld nfound/nfuse the nstituents in the nversation
16:59:39 <ais523> you have to be careful, if comedy is confounding constituents, then nstituents should nfound medy
16:59:50 <ais523> because the co- relationship reverses subject and object
17:00:13 <ais523> it's like a mathematical version of the "in soviet russia" jokes
17:00:29 <ais523> (does this make Soviet Russia an untry?)
17:00:37 <MTGBusyBeaver42> fair point
17:01:20 <wib_jonas> it works well because "co" is like the thickest part of an English dictionary
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17:20:58 <cpressey> "co" jokes are one thing, cojokes are quite another.
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17:27:44 <kmc> ais523: :D
17:49:16 <arseniiv> <ais523> sorry for not answering earlier, I was reading it first to make sure that the author actually understood the subject, but he does => thanks! No problem, as coincidentally I was busy away from here
17:51:04 <arseniiv> <ais523> (it strikes me that linking a random coeffect tutorial would have had the same risks as linking a random monad tutorial, but fewer people seem to write coeffect tutorials so they're probably of higher average quality) => lol :D
17:55:53 <arseniiv> a cojoke is probably a thing several people say crying and an unsuspecting person nearby then feels witless
18:22:38 <ais523> I think a cojoke is something you say in the hope that someone else will cheer you up
18:22:45 <ais523> I'm not sure though
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18:32:02 <zzo38> Does any web browser include the command to pause/rewind/fast-forward animations?
18:32:22 <ais523> I think it depends on the nature of the animations
18:32:46 <ais523> if they're based on a <video> tag, I think it's common for web browsers to offer those options if you right-click the animation (sometimes you have to do it twice, if the site has a custom right-click action defined)
18:33:05 <ais523> for animations based on an <img> tag containing an animated image, I don't think there's a common way to do that
18:34:32 <ais523> on Chromium, it appears to be right-click, right-click, "show controls"
18:34:54 <zzo38> I think it should be possible for <img> too, at least if the picture is loaded as its own document. But I also mean globalling pausing CSS animations (as well as animated pictures)
18:35:08 <ais523> oh, hmm
18:35:25 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if Firefox had a way to do that which was really obscure and almost nobody knew about; I don't know what it is if it exists
18:35:34 <ais523> it would be a useful feature, especially when debugging them
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19:02:32 <zzo38> What is the maximum number of scopes you can make in Italian cards?
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19:26:36 <zzo38> (Assume that you can put the cards in your order before the cards are dealt, and that opponent can cooperate with you.)
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19:40:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70274&oldid=69814 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-18) /* Examples */ old
19:42:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70275&oldid=70274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-254) /* Infinite cat */ ...
19:42:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70276&oldid=70275 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-255) /* Set the cell at the CP to 0 */
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21:05:37 <int-e> tromp_: did you get around to finding the first odd perfect number in binary lambda calculus? I pushed my own 288 bit version in the meantime but I expect one can do better
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21:41:18 <MTGBusyBeaver42> zzo38: in one round of itialian cards, assuming i have the rules right, you should be able to sweep every turn by playing the same rank as your opponent (after sweeping a low board with a face card)
21:42:53 <zzo38> MTGBusyBeaver42: Yes, but then the face card played to take the initial four cards won't have a pair for it, isn't it?
21:46:14 <int-e> @metar lowi
21:46:16 <lambdabot> LOWI 132120Z VRB01KT CAVOK 03/M00 Q1021 NOSIG
22:01:20 <MTGBusyBeaver42> still makes for maximum sweeps, you can have the opponent go first and add an ace to 2222
22:09:34 <zzo38> OK
22:20:19 <zzo38> If opponent plays 1 and then you play 5, and then again opponent 1 and you 5, then all of the cards will be paired, but then you won't make a scope on your first turn. Also, there is a rule that scope doesn't count for the last card.
22:23:23 <MTGBusyBeaver42> so you play 8 to sweep 2222, then sweep their card every turn and they have one last unpaired card?
22:24:04 <zzo38> Yes, that can work; they will have a left over 8.
22:24:07 <MTGBusyBeaver42> er the low face card with Italian cards
22:27:44 <zzo38> The 8 is the low face card.
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22:46:49 <tromp_> int-e: it's on my list of things to do; but I got a little sidetracked with cryptocurrency stuff in past week
22:47:28 <tromp_> i will try to find one myself before looking at yours...
22:48:53 <int-e> yeah I'd do the same
22:49:03 <int-e> it's always more fun to compare approaches
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23:28:15 <zzo38> Kjugobe's Pet {1} Legendary Creature - Leech (1/1) ;; Affinity for permanents named Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe ;; {4}, {T}: Remove a poison counter from target player. If you do, that player loses 1 life and put a +1/+1 counter on ~. Can be used only during your turn.
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2020-03-14:

00:07:05 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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00:15:59 <ais523> zzo38: I don't really like it, the affinity is unlikely to matter especially on a spell that costs {1}, and {4}, {T} seems way too expensive for the activated ability
00:16:25 <ais523> actually I think it wouldn't be worth playing even if the ability cost {0}
00:19:52 <zzo38> What if "poison" is deleted?
00:21:29 <MTGBusyBeaver42> better, still pretty narrow though. it just seems like a much worse Chronomaton
00:21:42 <ais523> that's a lot more interesting; I think {4}, {T} is probably still too expensive but it has the core of an interesting card now
00:22:43 <MTGBusyBeaver42> and who/what is "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"?
00:26:47 <zzo38> The name of a (unofficial) legendary creature card. (That in turn is the name of a character from a Dungeons&Dragons game I played, although I now play GURPS and included that character too sometimes, although my main character is now Ziveruskex.)
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00:30:58 <MTGBusyBeaver42> ais523, since it is just used for parity, could that last waterclock be a flooding clock instead?
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00:32:20 <ais523> MTGBusyBeaver42: which clock? apart from halt clocks, I don't think any of them could be flooding because you need to adjust apparently irrelevant clocks just to undo the steady decrement
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00:32:45 <MTGBusyBeaver42> E'
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00:33:30 <MTGBusyBeaver42> but no i see it is a little more complicated than that
00:33:32 <ais523> E' needs to run only once for multiple reasons, perhaps the most obvious is that it needs to adjust its own value relative to E by a set amount
00:33:52 <ais523> which it can't do if it's been held in stasis (with increments and decrements cancelling out) for an arbitrary length of time and is flooding
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00:34:47 <MTGBusyBeaver42> it cant just double itself and add itself to everything?
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00:35:42 <MTGBusyBeaver42> that seems like it would be difficult to track but yeah i dont think it would actually work
00:39:39 <ais523> if it adjusts itself by any more than it should, it won't trigger the next time that it should
00:42:32 <MTGBusyBeaver42> flooding clocks are so hard to work with
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00:50:53 <zzo38> Somehow, a few days ago, the NNTP server at aioe was confused about the highest article number in a newsgroup; trying to access it resulted in an error. However, it seems to be corrected now. Do you know why it does that?
00:52:26 <ais523> no
00:54:51 <zzo38> (Even while that was broken, I was still able to use NEWNEWS to download the articles instead, since they don't disable NEWNEWS (although it seems that some servers do disable NEWNEWS, but aioe isn't one of them, fortunately).)
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01:52:40 <zzo38> How much should be the activation cost be if "{4}, {T}" is too much, then?
02:00:00 <MTGBusyBeaver42> probably just {T} or just mana like {3} 
02:00:45 <MTGBusyBeaver42> tapping the guy on your turn only if theres a counter on a player is pretty narrow
02:04:10 <zzo38> OK
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02:51:15 <zzo38> Once I saw mahjong tiles that go up to ten.
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11:16:50 <oerjan> huh the parallel between girl genius and schlock mercenary increases
11:22:22 <oerjan> int-e: ^
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12:59:19 <esowiki> [[DAMN COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70277 * Hakerh400 * (+17258) +[[DAMN COVID-19]]
12:59:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70278&oldid=70253 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[DAMN COVID-19]]
12:59:26 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70279&oldid=70243 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[DAMN COVID-19]]
13:15:02 <Lykaina> whoever user Hakerh400 is...lol
13:16:22 <Lykaina> making a silly language around a serious topic
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13:27:15 <myname> that actually looks like a decent puzzle game idea
13:32:26 <Lykaina> yes
13:33:28 <Lykaina> but it gave me a laugh because of the name applied to it. i have a weird sense of humor
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14:13:54 <arseniiv> “If there is a city in the current cell, remove it, otherwise add it (works only when all cities are previously infected)” => adding a city means the virus is quite intellectual!
14:16:56 <arseniiv> I’m concerned by undefinedness of the distribution of random added cities. It’s stated that adding no cities has low probability and that the map should have one island after adding all new cities and have the same holes as before, but that all is too uncertain
14:17:14 <arseniiv> though there is a reference implementation to look into
14:17:43 <arseniiv> I presume also the map can’t become infinite
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16:36:11 <esowiki> [[IRCIS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70280&oldid=69890 * Batman nair * (+498) More functions added to the program
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17:10:44 <fizzie> You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland.
17:10:49 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's just a regular bank with a basement room for the safety deposit boxes.)
17:12:00 <int-e> `grwp vault
17:12:03 <HackEso> No output.
17:12:08 <int-e> `quote vault
17:12:11 <HackEso> No output.
17:17:30 <b_jonas> nice. I hope it's not on a DVD, but on a media that stands time more reliably, such as an SD card.
17:17:45 <b_jonas> or printed on acid-free paper, but it would be hard to restore from that.
17:19:07 <int-e> Hmm, I thought actual DVDs are pretty good. But no clue about the writable media, they're bound to be quite a bit worse.
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17:20:43 <b_jonas> int-e: DVDs are good if you need to store data for only a few years. they're less good if you want to store the data for 20 yeras.
17:21:04 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I mean burnable DVDs
17:21:34 <b_jonas> factory molded DVDs are supposedly better, but those are published in lots of copies, so if you lose one, you can probably get the data from somewhere else
17:22:45 <zzo38> I make backups on DVDs, but they are recorded rather than pressed DVDs. I don't know how long it is expected to last, though. (They are DVD-R, in case that matters. I don't know if DVD+R is better or worse.)
17:24:00 <b_jonas> I make such backups too, because having the backups a year or two later can also be potentially valuable if the data is lost from my hard disk
17:24:22 <b_jonas> although these days I don't do that much, because data is becoming large, 
17:24:31 <b_jonas> so I mostly back up to hard disks and SD cards instead
17:25:16 <b_jonas> meanwhile, today I installed a better ceiling light to my work room at home, with the help of my father, so now the lighting is actually decent
17:25:25 <zzo38> I have fit all of the files on my computer on three DVDs (using compressed tape archives); one for /home, one for /var, and one for everything else.
17:25:37 <b_jonas> I'll still have to fine tune it, the three bulb holders are individually rotatable in 2D
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17:26:08 <b_jonas> sure, I use compression to back up to hard disk too
17:26:17 <b_jonas> compression is useful
17:26:36 <fizzie> The copy is on a hard disk, which I'm not so certain about the durability of. I've got three that I rotate cyclically (one in the machine for weekly incremental copies, one on the shelf, and one in the vault), and run long-form SMART self tests on every swap.
17:26:37 <int-e> cmprssn s sfl
17:27:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, that's why you copy to multiple hard disks. each individual hard disk isn't too reliable, but you can copy between them fast. I should buy more hard disks.
17:28:40 <fizzie> I've got two blank M-DISCs that came with the external DVD drive I got recently, but I'm not sure what to put on them. They're allegedly supposed to last for a thousand years, but I don't know how much that is marketing hype. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC
17:30:41 <b_jonas> I'd guess marketing hype too
17:32:52 <ais523> CDs were believed to last a very long time when first created, that subsequently turned out to be incorrect
17:32:59 <ais523> because the were less durable than expected
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17:39:28 <zzo38> Apparently Canadian government says that DVD-R discs will last for 50-100 years if with gold, or 10-20 years if with silver.
17:42:23 <APic> And You believe what the GOVT says?
17:43:23 <int-e> It depends on the country?
17:43:37 <zzo38> Well, considering that DVDs were not invented 50 years ago, I don't think so.
17:44:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: are there details for that statement? are they staying that they last for that long in library archive conditions, that is, at constant temperature and constant low humidity?
17:44:43 <int-e> Light (UV in particular) probably matters as well.
17:44:53 <b_jonas> probably
17:46:42 <zzo38> It says if you do not write on the disc, the disc is stored in a case, in vertical orientation, in a cool and dry environment.
17:47:03 <b_jonas> Most rolls of thermal paper used for receipts here have a writing on the back that says it's guaranteed to be readable for 8 years, provided you store it away from direct sunlight, in temperature btw 18°C and 23°C, on humidity 50±8%. this last one is impossible to satisfy at home, so if you actually want to keep the information on the thermal paper for more than two years, it's better to scan or 
17:47:09 <b_jonas> photocopy it.
17:47:24 <zzo38> I don't do all of those things; there is some writing on the disc, although I store them in the basement.
17:47:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: cool and dry environments, right, that's the tricky part
17:47:47 <b_jonas> I could manage not writing on them, instead writing on a paper case surrounding it
17:47:52 <b_jonas> envelope
17:48:30 <b_jonas> what I do is storing most of the DVD backups in my parent's house, not because that's a better site, but just to have off-site backups
17:48:45 <b_jonas> if I buy more hard disks, then I should do that with rotated hard disk backups too.
17:50:16 <zzo38> (I also store the discs in a cupboard, which is dark inside, so there isn't light on it.)
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18:45:13 <arseniiv> <fizzie> You'll be happy to know that I've delivered a fresh copy of the wiki into my off-site underground vault buried deep in the antediluvian granite of Finland. => yay!
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18:50:16 <arseniiv> re, backups: there are also tools to use redundancy to make chosen files more robust to errors. Though I don’t know if there are any that leave at least one usual copy of the file intact so one can read that without the need to resynthesize those file chunks, if they hope that the data is still intact
18:54:05 <arseniiv> so I read up on intuitionistic Kripke models and it seems yes, all classical models are trivially these models with one world, and also I think one can make a clever model where in one word it’s a classical standard model, and a world above that hosts a classical nonstandard model, and maybe in a world above that there is even larger nonstandard model, or one can add a world any other way
18:54:15 <arseniiv> so, even weirder
18:54:29 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you can do that too. let's say you split your backup to three files, each half a DVD size. you distribute two copies of each across three DVDs. now you have three DVDs so that if any two of them are readable, you can restore your backup from them, and you don't need special tools for that redudnancy.
18:54:56 <b_jonas> at least not more than what I already use to split my backup to several files so that I can distribute them among DVDs just because they don't fit on a single DVD
18:56:42 <ais523> arseniiv: most schemes for adding redundancy leave one copy intac
18:56:45 <ais523> *intact
18:57:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: this is a good method but it requires a lot of space to hold the unwritten archive. Though having all that space is better than what I was doing when I used DVD backups
18:57:19 <ais523> actually, there are coding schemes where you can take, say, 10 DVDs, add an additional 4 DVDs as check information, and reconstruct the entire set if any 4 are lost
18:57:34 <ais523> (or damaged)
18:57:44 <ais523> but the first 10 contain all the information in the clear
18:58:13 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you need a DVD and half of space only, you can construct a DVD file system on the fly from two directories these days trivially
18:58:34 <b_jonas> but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory
18:58:41 <b_jonas> you don't need more space than the backup
18:59:41 <arseniiv> what I was doing when I used DVD backups => (I tried to solve that oprimization problem by hand, writing directories and parts of them; it was a grindy form of art)
19:00:06 <ais523> I would expect USB sticks to be more durable than DVDs (although considerably more expensive)
19:00:14 <ais523> that said, I'm not certain
19:00:41 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but even if you don't want that, you can just move around files to a burn staging directory => yeah that was what I used to do and it was awful
19:01:10 <arseniiv> especially with video
19:01:21 <b_jonas> there's also the more trickier secret sharing method, in which you distribute some data (in practice a symmetricy cryptography) key among three CDs such that it can be reconstructed from any two, but not from any one. obviously then you can't just write the data in plain text. this can be useful if you want remote backups of your secret key in places where there's a chance that they can be stolen.
19:02:11 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if error correction codes can be used to do that trivially?
19:02:20 <ais523> start with your plaintext P; generate random data R
19:02:22 <b_jonas> ais523: it's hard to tell. SD cards are certainly more resistant to bad storage conditions, and I suspect that they last long, but I can't tell if they last longer than a DVD in ideal (library archives with controlled temperature)
19:02:27 <ais523> store P^R and R on the first two DVDs
19:02:39 <ais523> actually, no, that doesn't work
19:02:49 <ais523> because the "check" DVD will contain P in plaintext
19:02:53 <b_jonas> ais523: you can use a trivial xor method if you don't mind storing more data than necessary, which is fine with a secret key stored on digital media;
19:03:20 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want an optimal solution, you can use a solution based on polynomial interpolation, as explained in the description of David Madore's accidental IOCCC winnning entry
19:03:27 <ais523> IIRC the most common failure mode for flash memory (which SD cards and USB sticks are based on) is becoming read-only, which wouldn't be a huge issue in this context
19:03:41 <ais523> b_jonas: I normally use polynomial interpolation for this
19:03:56 <ais523> ever since I won a codegolf competition with it
19:04:15 <arseniiv> ais523: I’ve seen something like this a month or so ago, that’s why I mentioned redundancy in the first place. I’ll look for the link…
19:04:19 <ais523> it has basically no downsides as far as I can see, other than the finite field often being annoying to construct and operate on
19:04:21 <b_jonas> ais523: nice. that should be possible, because the IOCCC entry is naturally somewhat golfed too.
19:05:18 <b_jonas> and I know some golfy ways to act on finite fields (though these don't interpolate polynomials): 
19:05:24 <ais523> it seems that in practice, finite fields are normally stored in lookup tables, because there aren't any "fast" ways of generating them on the fly (unless they have a prime size, obviously)
19:05:52 <ais523> at least, if you want to be able to number the elements consistently
19:05:53 <arseniiv> found it: https://viereck.ch/scatter/
19:06:45 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?spoil=1;node_id=863110 golfy computation on GF(128) based on bitshifts (I think there's a faster way but you can't easily write it in perl, you need to use cpu-specific carryless multiplication instructions); https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 golfy GF(128) based on lookup tables;
19:07:20 <b_jonas> and there are much golfier ways to compute on GF(127)
19:07:25 <ais523> GF(256) is probably the most interesting one for error correction codes
19:07:42 <ais523> or GF(size of DVD), I guess
19:07:45 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, and David Madore's accidental IOCCC entry implements GF(255) IIRC
19:08:12 <b_jonas> nah, you need a size bigger than GF(255) only if you want to divide your code to more than 255 minus a few pieces
19:08:20 <ais523> is there a GF(255)? it isn't a prime power
19:08:27 <b_jonas> sorry, I mean GF(256)
19:09:15 <b_jonas> and even if you want more than 255 or so pieces, which isn't that unreasonable in some cases, you probably want a smaller field than the DVD-sized one
19:09:16 <arseniiv> b_jonas: minus how many pieces approximately?
19:09:32 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think minus one piece in theory, but I'm not sure
19:09:50 <arseniiv> I see
19:10:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you store the value of the polynomial at 255 places, and its value at the remaining place (say 0) is the secret data
19:10:36 <b_jonas> and you choose all coefficients of teh polynomial except the constant one in a cryptographically random way
19:11:06 <ais523> b_jonas: that's if you want all the parts to be necessary
19:11:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you just choose a lower degree polynomial if you don't want that
19:11:25 <ais523> if you want all the parts but one to be necessary, you choose all the coefficients but two in a cryptographically random way, don't you?
19:11:28 <ais523> so you can have a lower degree
19:11:31 <b_jonas> if you choose a degree d polynomial, you need d+1 pieces
19:11:34 <ais523> oh, right, you choose the top one as 0
19:11:44 <ais523> so we had the same idea but expressed it different ways
19:12:51 <b_jonas> but in practice, it's enough to secret share a fresh symmetric crypto key this way, and encode all your data with that key
19:13:11 <arseniiv> yeah the scheme seems familiar but I don’t get yet how does it scale from a single scalar in GF(…) to a piece of data, is it just componentwise? Ah, it seems it should be the only way
19:13:43 <b_jonas> which is why it doesn't even matter much how efficient your implementation is, but you can get efficient implementations, because the CPU people optimized the implementations, because they need GF(2**n) computations for other reasons, such as CRC
19:14:03 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, you do this to each byte of the data
19:14:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: see the comments in David Madore's program
19:14:46 <b_jonas> it describes the scheme well, plus also describes how it does computations on the particular finite field
19:15:51 <b_jonas> ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/misc/shsecret.c
19:16:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh! I thought it would be obfuscated
19:17:27 <b_jonas> the IOCCC entry is based on that, and that one is obfuscated
19:18:30 <b_jonas> there's a great blog entry on it: www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-10-14.2083.html , telling that David didn't even know about the obfuscated program until the IOCCC committee announced the results and declared that David is also a winner because the obfuscated program was largely (and with attribution) based on his non-obfu program
19:19:04 <b_jonas> that is like winning winning the IOCCC
19:19:54 <b_jonas> I mean, that sentence is hard to parse, but
19:21:52 <arseniiv> ah, so he didn’t write an IOCCC entry himself!
19:21:54 <b_jonas> people sometimes say in an informal way that they won something that isn't even a competition because of style points, and in that sense, winning the IOCCC isn't a competition, because you wouldn't think there's a competition among IOCCC winners for who wins IOCCC the most awesome way, but it turns out that one can win that non-competition, and David showed how
19:22:15 <b_jonas> excatly, but the judges decided that he was an author
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23:55:15 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70281&oldid=70273 * JonoCode9374 * (+322) /* Examples */

2020-03-15:

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00:43:03 <zzo38> Can Firefox be configured to send the "Referer" header only for form submissions to the same domain name?
00:45:53 <int-e> There's a bunch of settings https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Referrer ... network.http.referer.XOriginPolicy is maybe close enough? It doesn't distinguish based on request type though, apparently.
00:46:52 <zzo38> Yes, I also know of network.http.referer.sendRefererHeader, although it can't distnguish forms specifically.
01:04:32 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70282&oldid=68162 * JonoCode9374 * (-8) Username change lol
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08:39:23 <arseniiv> Orchard et al. in an article on coeffects wrote they will mark a context with a coeffect and that that’s a bit more complex than effects because λ-calculus is not as symmetric between terms and contexts. So I went and made a symmetric λγ-calculus that’s more eso than useful. I’ll write out something to the wiki
08:48:41 <arseniiv> with a certain restriction it should be equivalent to the usual λ-calculus, though it may be more general and I don’t know with what semantics
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10:09:16 <Lykaina> hi Sgeo__ 
10:21:45 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70283&oldid=70281 * A * (+90) /* Examples */ To be honest this language is quite similar to Erlang.
10:22:10 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70284&oldid=70283 * A * (+2) /* Fibonacci sequence */
10:23:09 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70285&oldid=70284 * A * (-1) Typo
10:26:46 <esowiki> [[X(y)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70286 * D * (+226) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''X(y)''' is a language created by [[User:A]] for a simpler form of [[Function x(y)]]. == Syntax == == Examples == [[Category:2020]] [[Category:Languages]] Ca..."
10:29:20 <esowiki> [[X(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70287&oldid=70286 * A * (+970) Simplified the spec.
10:30:56 <esowiki> [[X(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70288&oldid=70287 * A * (-66) 
10:34:08 <esowiki> [[X(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70289&oldid=70288 * A * (+566) 
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10:46:21 <esowiki> [[X(y)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70290&oldid=70289 * A * (-84) 
10:51:56 <esowiki> [[Symmetric -calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70291 * Arseniiv * (+3323) Created page with "'''Symmetric -calculus''' is a generalization of [[Lambda calculus|-calculus]] to make contexts and terms more on par with each others, though it follows that one needs le..."
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12:30:04 <esowiki> [[Symmetric -calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70292&oldid=70291 * Arseniiv * (-9) l
12:30:12 <arseniiv> ll
12:30:15 <arseniiv> oops
12:30:34 <arseniiv> oops I hadn’t typed the description right
12:33:42 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70293&oldid=66642 * Arseniiv * (+79) added a link to [[Combinatory logic]]
12:48:44 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70294&oldid=66959 * Arseniiv * (+56) self-linking to the selfs linked self
12:49:54 <arseniiv> (I’m not sure I can explain this thing but if there would be questions it would probably be easier)
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13:12:53 <esowiki> [[Symmetric -calculus]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70295&oldid=70292 * Arseniiv * (+687) clarified a bit
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15:33:24 <Sgeo__> Hi Lykaina 
16:00:57 <Lykaina> Sgeo__: you have enough toilet paper?
16:01:15 <Lykaina> shoulda put that in a pm
16:23:36 <kmc> lol
16:32:34 <int-e> I don't get the obsession with toilet paper. You can't eat that stuff.
16:33:12 <int-e> It's such a cliche.
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16:34:57 <myname> there are people hoarding cash, that's even more hillarious
16:36:06 <myname> like "oh, there's no electricity or internet to make card payments, but at least the super markets will open to get my money for sure"
16:36:29 <myname> the more hillarious point in that is that places started rejecting cash
16:36:36 <b_jonas> myname: they probably want to disinfect the cash supply, as part of their civic duty, since banknotes are always so dirty
16:36:59 <myname> (which is a good idea, but it makes hoarding cash even more useless)
16:37:01 <int-e> wash your hands after shopping
16:38:09 <int-e> I can't imagine shops starting to reject cash here. It's way too common.
16:38:47 <int-e> Maybe when the first line of cashiers is all in hospital :-/
16:39:22 <myname> i heard that chains here started doing that. and a county apparently banned it completely
16:39:26 <int-e> (Well, or tested positive for covid. I wonder whether anybody is making that a priority.)
16:39:40 <int-e> myname: Are you in the US?
16:39:44 <myname> germany
16:39:50 <int-e> Oh. Wow.
16:40:26 <int-e> Didn't expect that at all. (Austria here. Actually in Tyrol so I'm officially under lockdown now.)
16:40:58 <int-e> (Starting today.)
16:42:01 <myname> i heard from people starting skiing vacation friday x)
16:42:10 <int-e> Hoarding cash seems pointless indeed. If banks stop operating (that is the scenario here, right?) then cash will be worthless in a heartbeat.
16:42:24 <int-e> myname: Well they won't be going to Tyrol.
16:42:39 <myname> they are being sent back right now
16:42:41 <j4cbo> toilet paper will become currency, obviously
16:43:05 <int-e> Oh. You heard about the lockdown by that route. Man, communication is so hard.
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16:48:49 <myname> https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2020-03/afd-rechtsradikale-coronavirus-verfassungsschutz-gefahr oh dear
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17:03:58 <kmc> 09:32 < int-e> I don't get the obsession with toilet paper. You can't eat that stuff.
17:04:02 <kmc> sure you can! https://lastoneeating.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/toilet-paper-mushrooms-blue-oyster/
17:04:16 <kmc> you can also drink it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-mWK_kcZMs
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17:09:02 <int-e> kmc: thanks :-/
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17:11:50 <Lykaina> to all those hoarding toilet paper to use as coronapocalypse currency: <expletive deleted>
17:12:47 <olsner> with so many people hoarding it, it's actually running out, so it was rational to hoard it all along!
17:13:13 <olsner> (/s)
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17:15:35 <kmc> olsner: you're not actually wrong though
17:15:39 <kmc> stupid prisoner's dilemmas
17:16:21 <kmc> as it happens we still had plenty left from our costco trip several months ago, so i haven't bought any
17:16:52 <kmc> but if we were running low at the time that i started to get worried about covid-19 (which was weeks ago) i would have bought some
17:17:16 <kmc> but not like years' worth like some people are
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17:20:27 <arseniiv> <kmc> you can also drink it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-mWK_kcZMs => ahaha I’ve seen that one too! Though drinking diamond water, a recent one by NileRed too, is maybe more weirderesting. Also I thought the link was to a video where somebody would drink a fine mix of the paper, as it’s mainly cellulose and pretty clean one, so it’s no harm at all to drink it when maybe first boiled a bit, then it should be perfectly safe(? I 
17:20:27 <arseniiv> ate a napkin and lived)
17:20:45 <kmc> yeah
17:21:07 <kmc> the problem is that humans can't digest cellulose
17:21:13 <kmc> so there are not many calories in toilet paper
17:21:40 <kmc> hence my suggestion of using it to grow mushrooms instead!
17:21:56 <arseniiv> I know there are several kilograms of little friends somewhere inside that can
17:22:15 <int-e> yeah, it should be harmlesss, but useless. Not sure about scented toilet paper, though.
17:22:23 <arseniiv> though I don’t know if they prefer cellulose from e. g. cucumbers more
17:22:47 <kmc> I don't think any animal can digest cellulose on its own. the ones that appear to (cows, horses, termites) are really feeding microorganisms that live in their guts
17:23:48 <arseniiv> exactly!
17:25:38 <arseniiv> re. that symmetric lambda calculus: I think I formulated it wrong and I don’t know how to remedy that
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18:20:43 <myname> https://twitter.com/JeremyKlemin/status/1239218272521859073?s=09
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18:24:38 <esowiki> [[Symmetric -calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70296&oldid=70295 * Arseniiv * (+58) grammar
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20:39:50 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70297&oldid=70251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Syntax */
20:46:51 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70298&oldid=70297 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* Syntax */
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21:14:05 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70299&oldid=70298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+294) /* Examples */
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22:53:32 <oerjan> now much more accurate
22:53:43 <oerjan> and cpressey will be happy
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23:15:29 <int-e> . o O ( s/deployment/lockdown/ )
23:16:33 <int-e> `quote coronation
23:16:35 <HackEso> No output.
23:17:14 <int-e> Also, haha, "dead" weight.
23:20:17 <b_jonas> int-e: the quote is at https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html fourth panel
23:23:17 <oerjan> i ... don't think int-e was thinking about that.
23:24:52 <int-e> yeah it's just an obvious pun
23:25:30 <int-e> the dead weight was from Schlockmercenary though
23:26:12 <int-e> which is having an exercise in long odds, kind of like the real world, only far more fatal
23:27:51 <oerjan> yeah i mentioned the other day that girl genius seems to be doing something similar.
23:28:23 <oerjan> including nifty prediction diagrams with a single green option
23:29:14 <oerjan> (which is itself unpredictable)
23:29:43 <oerjan> obviously a metaphor for the coronavirus hth
23:30:11 <int-e> . o O ( plot twist: for pandimensional monsters, red is the good color and green the dangerous one )
23:30:33 <oerjan> i don't think that fits the accompanying explanation
23:31:11 <int-e> Only if you decide to trust the weird invisible violet thing.
23:31:37 <oerjan> but but he's so cute and cuddly
23:31:54 <int-e> Or is that pink.
23:32:21 <oerjan> (i assume if anyone tried to touch him they'd experience some horrible effect and possibly die. in the past.
23:32:24 <oerjan> )
23:32:31 <oerjan> *to cuddle him
23:34:07 <int-e> Maybe he's a monad.
23:34:37 <int-e> Sure looks cuddly but deep down you know it's monstrous ;)
23:34:53 <longname> *gently* par the monstrosity
23:34:56 <int-e> https://wiki.haskell.org/wikiupload/1/1d/Monica_monad_falconnl.png
23:34:58 <longname> *pat
23:35:16 <oerjan> my brain says he's more blueish than reddish, which is also my dividing line between purple/violet and pink
23:35:17 <int-e> oerjan: ^^ it looks almost the same too (is that racist...)
23:36:20 <int-e> . o O ( All amoebas look the same too me. Same for snowflakes. )
23:36:38 <int-e> I'm not serious.
23:38:36 <oerjan> nah that monad thing clearly has a corona, unlike mr. Hotep
23:38:45 <oerjan> um
23:38:50 <oerjan> * Thotep
23:39:00 * oerjan should look it up
23:40:01 <oerjan> Karl Thotep, says the menu.
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2020-03-16:

01:13:44 <zzo38> ZZT itself is now Free software (the source code has been reconstructed), but you will still need Turbo Pascal to compile it, so it is still "trapped". You will also need LZEXE. Doing this allegedly produces the same ZZT.EXE file as the original; the only difference may be how the source code is formatted, and the comments and possibly variable names and so on.
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01:19:16 <int-e> zzo38: didn't Borland make the Pascal compiler free at some point? Or do you need a specific older version?
01:21:11 <int-e> (that's free as in beer, though)
01:22:04 <zzo38> Yes, it is freeware now, but not free software. (Still, it is a DOS program, so it is possible that you might not care.)
01:22:21 <Hooloovo0> yeah, it sounds like it's abandonware
01:29:04 <int-e> I used to care... but now it's just for a couple of games.
01:29:34 <int-e> (though actually I do have a working dosemu installation, which is probably unusual these days)
01:32:39 <int-e> Hooloovo0: nah it was properly released... not just exploiting the fact that nobody's coming after you for your copyright violation
01:32:57 <Hooloovo0> oh, that's cool
01:37:31 <int-e> hrm. CTRL-F9     Kill dosbox.
01:37:42 <int-e> whose bright idea was that ;)
01:38:19 <zzo38> You could disable it if you do not want that, I suppose.
01:38:51 <int-e> (CTRL-F9 runs programs in the Borland Pascal IDE)
01:39:53 <zzo38> I wanted to make it to use the "context menu" key instead of CTRL for this purpose, although if you save that into the configuration file, then it won't work. Does the new version fix this?
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01:40:36 <int-e> I don't know.
01:41:26 <int-e> I don't see myself actually using this stuff ever again... definitely not in the near future.
01:43:20 <int-e> The stuff is there because I've copied it from the previous computer, and it was there because I copied it from the computer before that... I think I'm at the 5th iteration now?
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01:50:09 <kmc> int-e: do you have a particular use case for dosemu?
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01:56:52 <int-e> kmc: no. it used to be a matter of speed.
01:57:25 <kmc> ah
01:57:37 <kmc> but every modern CPU can run a plain emulator like dosbox faster than any original DOS machine, right?
01:57:56 <int-e> Yes.
02:00:20 <int-e> The BP IDE doesn't even run in the dosemu... some dpmi problem. Works in dosbox though.
02:01:36 <kmc> huh
02:03:12 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bpc.png <-- looks weird
02:05:00 <int-e> But who knows. I may have misconfigured something, and I cannot really be bothered to debug this.
02:06:32 <int-e> Especially given the alternative that works.
02:29:31 <zzo38> Someone said they were considering updating NNTP for 2020, and posted a proposal to the IETF. I suggested increasing article numbers from 31-bits to 63-bits, and adding the WHOAMI command, both of these features I have implemented in my own software. Maybe the IETF will make this official.
02:30:38 <zzo38> (They also called Usenet "the world's largest social media network".)
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02:32:24 <ais523> hearing that Turbo Pascal is now available in perpetual free-trial form is pretty encouraging
02:32:28 <ais523> I still have some old Pascal code from a while back
02:32:46 <ais523> I remember translating it into C but the C ran more slowly; that surprised me at the time and still surprises me now
02:32:54 <ais523> maybe the Pascal had a better optimiser, or faster supporting libraries, or something
02:34:59 <ais523> oh wow, this pascal source is so old that the file ends with a literal ^Z character
02:35:06 <ais523> how long ago was it that text files stopped needing those?
02:35:55 <int-e> I'm not sure, was it when we abandoned CP/M?
02:35:56 <zzo38> Maybe Pascal is faster because it is DOS.
02:36:04 <ais523> the C compiler was also DOS
02:36:08 <ais523> I think, at least
02:39:07 <ais523> oh wow, the executable I compiled from the Pascal source still runs (in DOSBox)
02:39:08 <zzo38> Yes, although Pascal may be more suitable for DOS, at least in real mode.
02:39:13 <ais523> I guess that's not a surprise
02:39:35 <ais523> the executable I compiled from the C source does not run – it's missing dependencies – and I guess the problem is that those dependencies appear to be manually linked
02:39:44 <ais523> which could be very slow given that the pixels are written individually with function calls
02:40:02 <zzo38> What graphics mode?
02:40:43 <ais523> it looks like 16-color 640×480 VGA
02:41:02 <int-e> CP/M was a good guess, it seems; I vaguely remembered the record-based file access (which DOS mimics in its FCB interface for backward compatibility). "The CP/M file system only recorded the lengths of files in multiples of 128-byte "records", so by convention a Control-Z character was used to mark the end of meaningful data if it ended in the middle of a record."...
02:41:08 <int-e> ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-file
02:42:27 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't know why it should be ^Z, since that isn't the ASCII code for end of file; ^D might make more sense
02:42:45 <int-e> But Z is the last letter of the alphabet.
02:43:04 <int-e> . o O ( It's the latin omega. )
02:44:09 <zzo38> Yes, although it stands for "substitute" and not "end of file", isn't it?
02:45:08 <int-e> Whatever that means.
02:46:44 <ais523> the intended use was as an equivalent of REPLACEMENT CHARACTER
02:46:46 <zzo38> I think "substitute" means there is no valid character, so it substitutes ^Z in its place.
02:46:50 <ais523> `unicode REPLACEMENT CHARACTER
02:46:52 <HackEso> ​�
02:47:19 <ais523> but it was mostly used for other purposes, and Unicode had to add a separate such character at U+FFFD
02:47:52 <int-e> Well, I remember that ^A and ^B displayed smileys. That's not in line with ASCII either. I don't think CP/M and DOS developers cared all that much.
02:48:16 <ais523> int-e: code page 437 assigns glyphs for characters in the C0 and C1 regions, in addition to G0 and G1
02:48:22 <int-e> (Or the PC BIOS developers which may be the actual people responsible?)
02:48:24 <zzo38> Yes, in the PC character set, the graphics at those points corrsepond to faces.
02:48:26 <ais523> the C0 characters are very hard to write on most output devices
02:48:48 <ais523> the C1 characters are incompatible with most of the relevant standards, but are used often enough that terminals often need to find a way to output them anyway
02:49:25 <zzo38> That is true of all of the control range; there are also graphics there on a PC, so that if you write directly to the video memory, they will be visible.
02:50:08 <int-e> Whatever. CP/M and by extention DOS used ^Z to mark the end of files. That's really where the discussion should've ended.
02:50:33 <ais523> policing topicality here can be kind-of hard :-D
02:50:35 <int-e> Unless you have a time machine.
02:50:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is probably why DOS does that, because of CP/M.
02:50:45 <ais523> and retrocomputing is closer to our main topic than much of what's discussed here
02:51:08 <int-e> ais523: I'm mostly annoyed at myself for participating in it beyond that point :)
02:51:09 <ais523> I've actually put thought into writing an esolang for retrocomputing purposes
02:51:32 <ais523> the main aim being to reduce the amount of RAM that a program written in it takes to run, as far as possible
02:51:35 <zzo38> Yes, and even in esolang wiki there is a few retrocomputing stuff. And, I do want to see your esolang for retrocomputing purposes once you write it.
02:52:02 <ais523> using any trick available; overlays, swapping to disk, using bytecode interpreters with compressed bytecode, etc.
02:52:27 <ais523> I didn't design most of the details
02:52:46 <ais523> one idea I had was for it to be a byte-compiled language where the bytecode used return-oriented programming
02:52:58 <ais523> as a method of compression in addition to a method of function calls
02:54:51 <ais523> another idea I had was to store all values as 1 byte on the stack, if they were more than 1 byte wide then a hash table element would be tied to the stack location and contain the real value, with the stack containing information to find the element
02:55:08 <ais523> you could probably do something similar with the heap
02:56:14 <ais523> but these are just ideas, and that's all I have, it's not like there's some big plan that I'm hiding
02:56:33 <zzo38> OK
02:57:15 <zzo38> I like those ideas
02:58:41 <zzo38> (I thought of the similar idea about return-oriented programming before, too)
02:59:24 <ais523> I'm actually surprised that return-oriented programming isn't done more often as a programming technique in cases where you don't have to use it
02:59:36 <ais523> (of course, for the exploits against W^X code, it's often necessary)
02:59:56 <ais523> I guess Underload has some similarities to return-oriented programming
03:00:05 <ais523> although there are a lot of differences too
03:02:45 <int-e> ais523: I imagine it's rather expensive because it messes up the builtin call-stack based branch prediction.
03:03:03 <ais523> int-e: that's not necessarily the case if using a bytecode interpreter
03:03:10 <int-e> (of modern CPUs)
03:03:23 <ais523> but yes, it seems likely you'd have a lot of mispredicted branches
03:03:29 <ais523> that doesn't matter so much in retrocomputing, though
03:04:37 <int-e> I've certainly played funny tricks with the stack in golfing assembly code
03:05:19 <int-e> (well, machine code is what was golfed, really, but I wrote it in assembly) really, but I
03:06:24 <int-e> ... ^J (line feed = return key) is next to ^K (delete until end of line)
03:06:43 <ais523> well, you normally don't linefeed mid-line anyway
03:06:44 <int-e> I've had so many IRC editing accidents because of this.
03:07:09 <ais523> oh, I see, you're trying to delete to the end of the line, but press ^J by mistake
03:07:17 <int-e> Yes.
03:07:20 <ais523> my most common accident of that nature is hitting Return instead of Backspace
03:07:42 <ais523> (which are, again, adjacent, and you need to reach a long way to hit backspace, over Return)
03:07:48 <int-e> Hmm. Wrong keyboard layout for this, \ is between backspace and return here.
03:07:56 <ais523> I guess you could reach for the left-hand side of Backspace
03:08:02 <int-e> This often happens involuntarily though:\
03:08:13 <ais523> no, I mean I could
03:08:15 <ais523> to avoid the issue
03:08:35 <ais523> but spoke ambiguously because basically nobody uses "one" as a pronoun nowadays and none of the common replacements are really satisfactory
03:09:39 <int-e> ais523: the "you" didn't affect what I typed at all :)
03:10:18 <int-e> I was just trying to relate to the problem and realized that I no longer have this particular one.
03:11:02 <ais523> ais523- was using a laptop that was dropped ~3 years ago as an emergency replacement
03:11:15 <ais523> the keyboard layout was very similar to my current layout except that home/end were swapped with pgup/pgdn
03:11:28 <int-e> yuck
03:11:36 <int-e> why do people get creative on that front...
03:11:57 <ais523> (also it was using a bootable USB stick as the OS because I didn't want to substantially change the existing filesystem (for archival purposes), and its existing OS hadn't been updated in 3 years)
03:12:14 <ais523> I felt that merited half an underscore
03:12:34 <int-e> Is this a weak form of vendor lockin?
03:12:46 <ais523> it could be, I guess
03:12:53 <int-e> You /could/ use any laptop but half of them will confuse you with their keyboard layout?
03:12:58 <ais523> I actually abandoned the old vendor (HP) because I didn't like its UEFI implementation
03:13:28 <ais523> hmm, should the pronoun be "their" rather than "its"? I never did decide whether a company is singular or plural
03:14:37 <ais523> the biggest offences of the implementation appeared to be a) making the secure boot variables read-only whenever they were edited once, until you did a full reset of the secure boot state
03:14:44 <int-e> I'd probably go for "their". But I also use singular "their" for gender-neutral means.
03:15:04 <ais523> b) resetting the default bootloader to Windows's bootloader whenever you went into the UEFI settings
03:15:08 <int-e> Though in this case I imagine a company as a group of people.
03:15:28 <ais523> I think it's fairly well established that companies don't have genders and don't use pronouns that are intended only for people
03:15:47 <ais523> so gender-neutrality isn't really an issue in this context, just singular/plural
03:16:00 <int-e> Oh yeah I remember having to jump through some hoops to boot Linux on my former work HP Elite notebook.
03:16:06 <ais523> I guess an Agoran "eir" wouldn't be that out of place, corporations act like people in some respects after all, and "eir" is appropriate for non-human people
03:16:39 <ais523> I think it's interesting that most Linux distributions don't add themselves to Windows' bootloader, it would seem like a logical thing to do
03:17:01 <ais523> (so that you could use either shim+GRUB, or Windows Boot Manager, based on personal preference; and yet boot into all your OSes either way)
03:18:35 <zzo38> If you use both Linux and Windows, then yes it can make sense I think
03:19:20 <ais523> I think it's interesting that the common Linux implementation has bootloaders stacked 3 deep
03:19:44 <int-e> speaking of booting... why do I have 17 linux kernel images installed :/
03:19:52 <ais523> (firmware UEFI → shim → grub), and if you have a multiboot setup this stacks bootloaders 4 deep (because grub chain-loads Windows Boot Manager)
03:20:12 <ais523> not all these levels are actually needed
03:21:03 <int-e> And why doesn't debian remove them all and then rebuild the initrds once.
03:21:24 <zzo38> I think UEFI isn't very good
03:21:31 <ais523> shim is a complicated compromise
03:21:34 <int-e> zzo38: whatever
03:22:23 <ais523> basically, it's a consequence of UEFI mandating an executable format that a) can only contain one digital signature and b) shipping with only Microsoft's key by default
03:22:34 <ais523> b) isn't part of the standard, it's just what happens in practice
03:23:04 <ais523> so it exists purely to validate a bootloader against someone else's key and then chain-load it
03:23:36 <ais523> the various Linux distros persuade Microsoft to sign versions of shim that recognise their key, which is easier than trying to persuade every motherboard manufacturer to recognise their key
03:24:25 <int-e> Hmm, with grubx64.efi isn't it just UEFI -> grub?
03:24:36 <ais523> int-e: whose signature does grub have?
03:25:06 <ais523> in my experience, distros put a signed version of grub into the UEFI bootloaders directory, but the UEFI refuses to load it unless someone manually changes the list of approved keys
03:25:08 <int-e> Oh. You want actual secure boot?
03:25:16 <ais523> why not?
03:25:24 <int-e> It's fine.
03:25:42 <int-e> And it explains the role of shim, I suppose.
03:26:00 <ais523> one of the many ideas I've had and will never have time to act on, is a UEFI program that lets the user manage keys manually, choosing who to trust and who not to trust
03:26:14 <ais523> together with kernels that check the filesystem for integrity during boot (at least, the parts they execute)
03:26:49 <ais523> you wouldn't need much more than a signed md5sums file and a more secure hashing algorithm than md5
03:28:52 <ais523> I guess an extreme version would require some sort of password to set files as +x…
03:29:24 <ais523> (under the control of the user, of course)
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04:30:55 <ais523> hi shinh
05:04:09 <ais523> question to everyone: I invented an esolang just to write one program, and have now written the program, but haven't implemented the esolang
05:04:18 <ais523> should I implement the esolang, or just compile the program by hand?
05:10:31 <zzo38> What program and what esolang?
05:21:41 <ais523> I'm talking in general terms here
05:21:53 <ais523> I'll be putting it up on the wiki once I'm sure it works
05:23:22 <ais523> actually, screw it, I'll upload the program
05:23:57 <ais523> here's the program: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/spiral-rise.wck
05:24:22 <ais523> it's an esolang interpreter (for a new esolang called Spiral Rise) written in another new esolang (called Waterfall Construction Kit)
05:24:28 <ais523> WCK is meant to compile to The Waterfall Model
05:24:57 <ais523> and is currently defined by that one example program, which is its purpose for existence
05:26:21 <ais523> I think the program is correct, although I'm not sure, it's pretty hard to test
05:26:35 <ais523> I think I'm going to try compiling it by hand
05:26:55 <zzo38> O, OK. I think that it is worth at least documenting WCK properly.
05:49:01 <ais523> what's 310031-in-base-5 in decimal?
05:50:46 <zzo38> If you mean 310031 is a base five number, then the decimal is 10016. (You can figure out this by dc easily. It can also be figured out easily in JavaScript and also in PostScript.)
05:51:17 <ais523> I thought dc might be able to do it, but I wasn't sure how
05:51:33 <ais523> thanks for the answer, anyway, you interpreted the question correctly
05:51:56 <zzo38> How to do in dc is: 5i310031p
05:54:33 <ais523> `dc 5i310031p
05:54:35 <HackEso> dc: Could not open file 5i310031p
05:54:39 <ais523> `` dc -e 5i310031p
05:54:40 <HackEso> 10016
05:54:42 <ais523> aha
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06:25:02 <ais523> `` dc -e 5i200310031p
06:25:04 <HackEso> 791266
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07:40:21 <b_jonas> ais523: DOS editors added the ^Z, not because they needed it, but for backwards compatibility with DOS 1. it's like how all windows programs and editors write crlf line endings by default, despite that most windows programs read lf just fine.
07:42:09 <b_jonas> int-e: CP/M and DOS version 1, because DOS version 1 has CP/M's record-based file access. DOS 2 fixes this, adding unix-style open/close/read/write calls (NB. DOS 1 doesn't even have a close), and file descriptors that can point to things other than disk files, so you can redirect the stdout of programs. DOS 3 adds some more calls.
07:45:37 <b_jonas> ais523: like storing function return address a single byte on the stack, provided that there are no more than 256 call sites to the function after inlining?
07:47:37 <ais523> b_jonas: I think that might be incompatible with return-oriented programming 
07:47:51 <ais523> because it requires you to track what functions are currently running
07:54:01 <kmc> what is record-based file access?
07:56:26 <Hooloovo0> I'm pretty sure that return-oriented programming is usually unintended behavior
07:57:34 <Hooloovo0> (usually)
07:58:03 <b_jonas> btw, do we want a Planet of the Hats comic strip list, in the sense of `*list ?
07:58:33 <Hooloovo0> it also seems like that would only be useful on old CPUs... it would be hell on branch predictors
08:01:23 <b_jonas> int-e: "why do I have 17 linux kernel images installed" => I don't delete the old ones either until the space on the one gigabyte sized boot gets low
08:02:58 <b_jonas> kmc: in CP/M and DOS 1, can't just ask the kernel to read or write any number of bytes, instead you can only read a fixed size block, which corresponds to a block stored contiguously on the disk. as a consequence for this, the file size isn't stored in byte granularity either.
08:04:49 <b_jonas> this was the old default until unix came along, and it would still make sense for regular files, though with a variable block size that the kernel decides for you, because why the heck would you need a buffer for regular files both in the kernel and in userspace?
08:04:52 <kmc> what's the block size, and is it the same for every file?
08:04:59 <kmc> mm
08:05:04 <b_jonas> kmc: on CP/M and DOS 1, they are the same
08:05:23 <b_jonas> these days, it's only the same on one file system, might vary after that
08:05:26 <kmc> so ^Z is used to indicate the actual end of the file within the block?
08:05:37 <b_jonas> back then it was the same globally, because there was only one type of file system
08:05:41 <kmc> right
08:05:42 <b_jonas> kmc: for text files, yes
08:05:52 <b_jonas> other files like executables can have any format the programs handle
08:06:09 <Hooloovo0> it makes a lot of sense for floppy drives - the only writable sections are blocks
08:06:16 <kmc> also, why ^Z
08:06:26 <Hooloovo0> and in the early days of DOS and CP/M, that's all you really had
08:06:29 <kmc> doesn't ASCII have a C0 control code for end of file? is it ^Z?
08:07:02 <b_jonas> kmc: that was discussed earlier in chat, we don't know why ^Z but it would be stupid to change it now
08:07:11 <kmc> it's kind of tragic how the C0 control codes, most of which are never used, occupy prime 1-byte real estate in UTF-8
08:07:14 <kmc> c'est la vie
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08:08:19 <Hooloovo0> anything >0x7f is undefined in ascii, right?
08:08:33 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: that hasn't changed, even these days hard disks and SSDs are written in blocks. in fact, with hard disks having controllers built onto them, you can't even do anything about it, whereas back in the old days you had some control over the format of your floppies.
08:08:52 <zzo38> The ASCII control code for end of file isn't ^Z; that is due to CP/M, not ASCII.
08:09:03 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: although file systems add an abstraction layer over that, where a logical block for storing files can be larger than the physical sectors
08:09:15 <kmc> (and the even more obscure C1 codes occupy 1-byte real estate in ISO 8859, but the 8-bit Windows code pages put printing characters there instead)
08:09:32 <Hooloovo0> yeah, I know that, but given the age and early status of the OSs, an there were no real alternatives to floppies...
08:09:36 <kmc> Hooloovo0: correct. ASCII is a 7-bit code
08:09:59 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: sure there were, they were casettes, only those are much less reliable than floppy disks
08:10:13 <Hooloovo0> then how can you have C0/C1 codes? that's 8 bits
08:10:26 <Hooloovo0> technically, sure
08:10:28 <kmc> C0 and C1 are not meant to be hex numbers here
08:10:32 <Hooloovo0> ohhhh
08:10:32 <kmc> they're just called that for some reason
08:10:33 <b_jonas> and ROM cartridges of course, which are _more_ reliable than floppy disks, but you can only write them in huge production runs
08:10:52 * Hooloovo0 is currently in the middle of a tape backup
08:11:05 <kmc> C0 codes are 00-1F hex and C1 codes are 80-9F
08:11:24 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes
08:11:33 <kmc> > ASCII defined 32 control characters, plus a necessary extra one for the all-1 DEL character (needed to punch out all the holes on a paper tape and erase it).
08:11:34 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:36: error: parse error on input ‘,’
08:11:43 <kmc> oh! so that's why DEL is 0x7F
08:11:45 <kmc> lol
08:11:53 <Hooloovo0> yeah, it's because of paper tape
08:11:56 <kmc> always wondered why they put it at the end
08:12:00 <b_jonas> kmc: and poor \x7F would be an orphan out of blocks if it weren't for that it used to be one of the more useful control characters for 7-bit paper tape
08:12:14 <b_jonas> yeah, you were faster
08:13:55 <Hooloovo0> 
08:16:12 <zzo38> Some people (such as myself) still use ASCII, though.
08:17:02 <Hooloovo0> did you get my BELs?
08:17:50 <zzo38> Yes, although it only displayed them because my IRC client filters control codes
08:18:31 <kmc> I didn't, nor are they in the logs
08:19:13 <kmc> "rice-\a\a-a-roni, the san francisco treat"
08:19:57 <zzo38> They are in the logs. (However, maybe you are looking at a different file than I am looking at.)
08:20:04 <moony> who posted BELs >:(
08:20:05 <kmc> oh I meant my local logs
08:20:12 * moony yells at Hooloovo0
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08:20:29 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK.
08:21:06 <moony> Hooloovo0: a lot of older IRC clients (NOT mine, i'm just messing with you) will actually cause the terminal "bell" (usually a beep) to go off if one is sent in a channel
08:21:09 * Hooloovo0  BELs at moony 
08:21:10 <moony> be careful :P
08:21:16 <kmc> ceci n'est pas une ␇
08:21:27 <Hooloovo0> yeah, I know
08:21:59 <Hooloovo0> I've IRC'd from a vax with an appropriately-aged terminal
08:22:10 <Hooloovo0> I got a good amount of bells
08:22:26 <Hooloovo0> apparently unicode fucks it up a lot
08:22:31 <kmc> nice
08:22:35 * moony may be getting a chance to remote into a VAX tonight, on that note. Moony is happy.
08:22:36 <kmc> does it have a mechanical bell
08:23:03 <Hooloovo0> my terminal doesn't
08:23:15 <Hooloovo0> but I know a couple people with ASR33s...
08:24:54 <Hooloovo0> hmm, I wonder if I can figure out how to make BEL make asterisk do a single ring...
08:25:38 <Hooloovo0> there's currently 3 physical bells on my desk, and one not far
08:27:28 <kmc> rofl
08:27:30 <kmc> that'd be a fun hack
08:27:36 <kmc> do you collect old phones or something?
08:27:53 <Hooloovo0> yeah
08:28:06 <Hooloovo0> I've got a couple channel banks
08:28:23 <Hooloovo0> I've been looking for a decent non-asterisk pbx 
08:29:07 <Hooloovo0> I'm more into phone systems, but it's hard to be into that without also collecting phones
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08:31:12 <zzo38> Did you make a telephone with a bell?
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08:31:52 <Hooloovo0> no, bell made telephones with bells
08:32:10 <moony> `? Hooloovo0 
08:32:13 <HackEso> Hooloovo0 is a calculator brain surgeon.
08:32:21 <moony> Huh.
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08:33:28 <rain1> hi
08:33:54 <Hooloovo0> https://beatriceco.com/bti/porticus/bell/telephones-princess.html if you're unfamiliar with the Bell System
08:34:52 <kmc> cool
08:35:04 <kmc> I have a rotary phone that i bought at a hamfest
08:35:11 <kmc> I took it apart and then didn't do anything with it :/
08:35:13 <kmc> feel kinda bad
08:35:24 <kmc> i could give the parts to someone who wants them
08:35:38 <kmc> there was supposed to be another hamfest on Saturday, but it got cancelled :/
08:35:47 <moony> I took apart a working IBM PC keyboard when I was (much) younger. Still regret it, perfectly good keyboard ):
08:35:49 <kmc> as did the big Hamvention in Ohio in may
08:36:03 <kmc> i feel taking things apart is virtuous, though
08:36:07 <kmc> in general
08:36:14 <Hooloovo0> yeah, taking things apart is good
08:36:21 <kmc> especially if you learn something
08:36:38 <Hooloovo0> if a piece of electronics gets taken apart, it died a good death
08:36:39 <Hooloovo0> yeah
08:36:46 <moony> All I learned was that the keyboard controller was a Zilog made one
08:36:54 <moony> apparently
08:37:13 <moony> (Was probably a clone's keyboard? I forget, parts are long gone)
08:37:30 <Hooloovo0> I've got a couple rotary dials sitting around in a box
08:37:39 <Hooloovo0> came from the junk store
08:37:52 <Hooloovo0> I kind of wish they just sold the phones...
08:42:32 <zzo38> I might suggest to make a telephone out of those parts, then.
08:45:16 <Hooloovo0> I wish I had time for that
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09:17:06 <esowiki> [[Pxem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70300&oldid=68572 * YamTokTpaFa * (+5) Googled what is to be stack-oriented paradigm.
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10:09:43 <b_jonas> ais523: how many underscores would this count in your scale: "<Hooloovo0> I've IRC'd from a vax with an appropriately-aged terminal" 
10:09:58 <b_jonas> I want to calibrate that scale, even though I'm not using underscores that way myself
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10:11:23 <b_jonas> "<Hooloovo0> there's currently 3 physical bells on my desk, and one not far" => there are three in my drawer, but they're not electric, they're tiny decorational cowbell style bells that you can only ring by hand. plus there's a wind bell hung next to me at the bookshelf, also ringable by hand only.
10:12:08 <Hooloovo0> the three on my desk are all in telephones, as is the other
10:12:34 <Hooloovo0> I can also ring the one in the kitchen
10:13:13 * Hooloovo0 only has one desk drawer, and it's filled with calculators
10:13:25 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I have an electronic doorbell, an electronic bell in my home phone, and an electronic bell in the door phone
10:13:29 <Hooloovo0> like, I have too many calculators that thy don't all fit
10:13:30 <ais523> b_jonas: it depends on who owns the vax; if you don't have admin rights there and are using telnet or something, then 2-3; if you can install your own IRC clients on it, probably only 1-1½
10:14:01 <Hooloovo0> yeah, I installed my own IRC client
10:14:10 <Hooloovo0> the drive as I got it was useless
10:14:21 <Hooloovo0> but the drive worked!
10:14:41 <Hooloovo0> (had useless stuff on it, not broken)
10:15:16 <Hooloovo0> installing 4.3bsd isn't too trivial when you don't have a tape drive
10:18:59 <ais523> b_jonas: the best way to think of it is that it's a scale based on how much you hate your setup, which means that an underscore-laden setup only happens if you have no real ability to change it (otherwise, you would have changed it rather than using a setup you hate)
10:19:01 <rain1>  hello 
10:20:45 <esowiki> [[Spiral Rise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70301 * Ais523 * (+4759) now that I'm sure this can be implemented in The Waterfall Model (I ran some compiled programs against a simulation in a spreadsheet and compared the internal states), it's worth adding to the wiki
10:20:49 <b_jonas> I see
10:20:52 <Taneb> b_jonas: I'm imagining you signing in as b_____jonas
10:20:54 <Hooloovo0> I see
10:21:02 <ais523> well, The Waterfall Model is TC
10:21:09 <ais523> but I meant, implemented with a small program
10:21:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70302&oldid=70278 * Ais523 * (+18) /* S */ +[[Spiral Rise]]
10:21:47 <b_jonas> Taneb: I don't use that scale. if I sign in as b_jonas_ or wib_jonas_, it's only because the main nick is still connected.
10:21:55 <b_jonas> and even b_jonas__ means only that.
10:21:55 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70303&oldid=67193 * Ais523 * (+17) +[[Spiral Rise]]
10:22:00 <Taneb> I... use completely different nicks
10:22:01 <b_jonas> and b_jonas-2
10:22:11 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
10:22:12 <b_jonas> I use nc_jonas and such things for stupid setups
10:22:15 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
10:22:29 <Taneb> (I think atriq is currently set as my fallback, which is rot13 of approximately my initials)
10:24:30 <Hooloovo0> I use variations of the main one
10:24:40 <Hooloovo0> Hoolootwo, Hooloo42
10:24:42 <ais523> incidentally, something I noticed recently: a program in The Waterfall Model with n non-halt waterclocks can be compiled into a FRACTRAN program with N+1 fractions
10:25:48 <ais523> the basic idea is to use a prime for each waterclock (including halting waterclocks), then multiply together all the primes but one in order to implement a zeroing trigger
10:26:36 <ais523> then if none of those fractions can run, a final fraction does the steady decrement
10:27:01 <ais523> halting waterclocks aren't given fractions, but are still given primes, so if one of them zeroes, none of the fractions can run because their prime is multiplied into every denominator
10:27:48 <ais523> hmm, I should post that on the Waterfall talk page
10:28:39 <Hooloovo0> wow, very cool!
10:28:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70304&oldid=58808 * Ais523 * (+863) /* Relationship to Fractran */ new section
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10:31:48 <wib_jonas> I haven't been logged as b_jonas and w?b_jonas simultaneously for a very long time
10:34:13 <Hooloovo0> my vax is unfortunately not with me right now
10:34:25 <Hooloovo0> hmm, might be able to get my 486 box in here
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10:43:48 <Hoolootwo> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Gentoo Linux (stable) • CPU: 486 DX/4-WB (0MHz) • Memory: 45.4 MiB Total (20.4 MiB Free) • Storage: 208.0 kB / 96.6 MB (96.4 MB Free) • Uptime: 2d 9h 49m 32s
10:44:56 <ais523> that's a surprisingly empty disk
10:45:08 <ais523> do you have just a kernel and an IRC client and nothing else?
10:45:18 <Hooloovo0> it's netbooted
10:45:34 <wib_jonas> mounting an nfs?
10:45:57 <Hoolootwo> I'm pretty sure hexchat's sysinfo script doesn't know how to handle that
10:46:00 <Hoolootwo> yeah, hnfs
10:46:04 <Hoolootwo> nfs, even
10:54:23 <esowiki> [[Spiral Rise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70305&oldid=70301 * Ais523 * (+3664) this is almost certainly TC, but I guess that technically, I haven't proven it
11:01:05 <wib_jonas> argh, where do I change the font antialiasing settings on windows 10?
11:01:22 <wib_jonas> this windows is set to English and yet I can't find the fucking setting
11:02:37 <cpressey> Technically I never proved Burro is TC either. That's on my TODO list for this year sometime.
11:02:47 <ais523> wib_jonas: does searching for "ClearType" in the various control panels help?
11:03:08 <ais523> it can take a while to find all the settings programs the one you can get at by right-clicking the start menu is fairly comprehensive though
11:03:54 <wib_jonas> ais523: ah yes, now it worked. I typed it to the control panel search first, and it didn't find anything. now I typed it to the Settings, and it did find the option, and opened a control panel app. wtf. 
11:06:23 <wib_jonas> and yes, searching apps in the start menu for "ClearType" finds it too, that's where I should have started
11:06:49 <ais523> I wonder if "antialiasing" also works, or whether you have to use the marketing name
11:08:06 <wib_jonas> "antialiasing" doesn't, but there are probably other keywords that find it
11:10:03 <ais523> oh
11:10:06 <ais523> "subpixel rendeering"
11:10:11 <ais523> *"rendering"
11:10:17 <ais523> I doubt that works either, but it's a more accurate name
11:10:44 <esowiki> [[Spiral Rise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70306&oldid=70305 * Ais523 * (+2325) comparison with High Rise
11:11:35 <ais523> MTGBusyBeaver42 (if you're logreading), and anyone else interested: I'm now pretty much convinced that 6 waterclocks + 1 halt waterclock (which can of course flood) is enough to create a UTM in The Waterfall Model
11:14:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70307&oldid=70205 * Ais523 * (+543) /* The Waterfall Model UTM */ see [[Spiral Rise]], which can be implemented with a 6+1-waterclock model and is almost certainly TC
11:15:21 <ais523> corollary: Fractran is almost certainly TC with 6 fractions, although the size of the fractions is probably going to be astronomical
11:18:06 <wib_jonas> The coronavirus liability cascade has reached our boss, so he told us to work from home. This just two workdays after we could have started to work more efficiently in the office, because all the interns who normally come in only a few days a week can now work full-time since universities are closed, and this office happens to have few parents who
11:18:07 <wib_jonas> have to stay home because schools are closed.
11:18:48 <wib_jonas> So I'm setting up the work notebook for use at home. The monitor and lighting conditions are better there, but I have to change the ClearType settings, and possibly also the gamma setting.
11:19:45 <wib_jonas> I'm glad I brought the work mouse home. It's worse than my home mouse, but my home mouse is for PS/2 port, and the notebook doesn't have a PS/2 port. 
11:20:08 <wib_jonas> Though I'll have to check which direction passive converters work, I think I have two in my drawer
11:20:52 <wib_jonas> Yeah, I remembered right, the passive converters let newer USB mouse to plug into PS/2 ports. That doesn't help me.
11:21:04 <wib_jonas> Oh well.
11:22:36 <wib_jonas> Anyway, this results in the unprecedented state that I'm not only connected as b_jonas and wib_jonas at the same time, but also they are NATed to the same public IP address.
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12:07:40 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70308&oldid=70254 * Chris Pressey * (+1905) /* Implementations */ I, Chris Pressey, the author of this here implementation of Deadfish, do hereby huck it into the public domain
12:08:52 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70309&oldid=70308 * Chris Pressey * (+29) /* Robin */ nowiki
12:11:56 <wib_jonas> oh nice, I got academic spam from "head chief" at publisher called "International Organization of Science Research"
12:24:44 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70310&oldid=70309 * Chris Pressey * (+18) Make link point to WayBack Machine. Apparently the cafe closed sometime in 2015 or 2016.
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13:30:29 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70311&oldid=70310 * Chris Pressey * (+464) I, Chris Pressey, who done authored this Deadfish interpreter, hereby hurl it into the public domain.
13:33:14 <fizzie> Subpixel reindeering is what Santa uses to get around the world so fast. Not sure how.
13:34:51 <fizzie> Also working from home, incidentally. Kind of interesting, after having just swapped the Linux laptop to a ChromeOS tablet (rationale: "I only ever use this for browsing on work travel, anyway, not for real work"), which has a total of two USB-C ports, and that's it for holes in it.
13:39:16 <wib_jonas> this one doesn't have a DVI port either, but I had the sense to bring the HDMI cable from work
13:39:58 <wib_jonas> also, these fans need to be tuned, my home computer and the work computer are giving noise in disharmony.
13:40:15 <wib_jonas> (mostly I should just replace my home computer with a not so loud computer)
13:46:48 <fizzie> I did buy one of those USB-C dongle things (2x USB-A 3.0, 1x USB-A 2.0, HDMI, Ethernet, SD/micro-SD, DC pass-through from a USB-C charger) "on the off chance I'll need to hook up the monitor and keyboard, though that's not very likely, I don't usually work from home", which turned out to be a good idea.
13:47:42 <wib_jonas> this notebook has a docking station, but it still has very few ports
13:47:53 <wib_jonas> no DVI in particular
13:48:26 <wib_jonas> nor a microphone port
13:49:57 <wib_jonas> it's mostly useless
14:00:00 <wib_jonas> `olist 1195
14:00:11 <HackEso> olist 1195: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:00:52 <Sgeo__> BTW all OOTS books are on 50% discount until later today wih coupon "washyourhands"
14:01:15 <wib_jonas> Sgeo__: does that discount the shipping too?
14:01:20 <wib_jonas> because the shipping is the expensive part
14:01:42 <Sgeo__> Oh, just the e-book versions
14:01:55 <wib_jonas> ah
14:02:06 <wib_jonas> well that can be helpful, let me check
14:04:49 <wib_jonas> Sgeo__: that would actually gives an almost acceptible price for the e-books. I'll have to consider this quickly.
14:17:24 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> also, these fans need to be tuned, my home computer and the work computer are giving noise in disharmony. => do you have a microwave? It could alleviate the situation. Or maybe a vacuum. Or maybe both, this could end up as a neat seventh chord
14:18:46 <wib_jonas> arseniiv: I have a microwave in the kitchen, yes, and I have a vacuum cleaner too
14:18:54 <wib_jonas> also a washing machine and a dishwasher
14:19:04 <arseniiv> now bring them all in one room, yes, and a machine too
14:19:08 <wib_jonas> and a gas oven
14:19:13 <arseniiv> hm I don’t know how dishwashers sound
14:19:42 <arseniiv> presumably a gas oven would be almost silent
14:19:52 <wib_jonas> that would be hard, because the oven absolutely can't be moved, and the dishwasher and the washing machine at least need to be connected to water and drain pipes while under operation
14:20:42 <arseniiv> hmhmhmhm then you need to place a couple microphones in there and… hm too time-costly
14:20:44 <wib_jonas> so I'd have to move the washing machine into the kitchen, which would need extra plumbing parts, and I'd really rather not do the installation myself
14:20:58 <wib_jonas> taking the computers there wouldn't be too difficult at least
14:21:17 <arseniiv> yeah at least you could take a vacuum with you
14:21:23 <wib_jonas> I don't need microphones, I can just open the doors
14:21:28 <wib_jonas> this house isn't *that* big
14:22:19 <wib_jonas> also the kitchen doesn't have a floor drain, and the floor is wooden, so running a washing machine there would be impractical
14:23:03 <arseniiv> agree
14:23:39 <wib_jonas> on the other hand, these computers can make a variety of noises other than the fan
14:24:05 <wib_jonas> there are speakers, three sets of them (one that I normally use for the computer, one built into the monitor, and one built into the work laptop), plus hard disks
14:24:36 <wib_jonas> and even a chasis fan in the home computer, which I've disabled long ago, but I can reenable it easily
14:24:46 <arseniiv> alas a hard disk is hard to reason with
14:45:24 <Sgeo__> On the Origins of PCs is free with the coupon I believe
14:46:53 <wib_jonas> Sgeo__: I already have Origins and Darkness and Good Deeds. I'd probably buy book 4 and 3 next.
14:47:03 <wib_jonas> It's sad that book 6 still isn't listed in https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html
14:47:16 <wib_jonas> so you have to find a link to it from the news archive or the forum if you want to buy it
14:48:55 <wib_jonas> or find it linked on Gumroad from the other books
14:50:14 <wib_jonas> but half price for book 4 is still 2600 forints for a book that contains mostly the same strips as the web, so I'll skip for now
15:45:22 <int-e> b_jonas: Well, I don't like that the kernels accumulate like that, especially because removing them with aptitude takes quadratic time. There must be a workaround for that.
15:49:53 <int-e> b_jonas: e.g. http://paste.debian.net/1135151/
15:51:48 <wib_jonas> int-e: they don't seem to accumulate just from debian for me, at least not to the amount you mention. debian only keeps one from each abi compat version, which is a level below the kernel version number but above the actual debian package version number, and supposedly increments only when the abi becomes incompatible between kernel and modules
15:52:32 <int-e> wib_jonas: I'm un debian unstable, which has many more kernels (and a good reason to keep *some* around. I just wish it wasn't every single one, ever)
15:52:41 <wib_jonas> whereas they often do kernel updates within an abi version, and I usually copy those kernels to my boot partition now (but only because of this weird setup; and I don't copy the modules)
15:52:47 <int-e> I'm *running
15:52:48 <wib_jonas> oh, debian unstable. that's different
15:52:59 <wib_jonas> I don't run unstable, and wouldn't run it 
15:53:37 <wib_jonas> it takes quadratic time to remove them? ouch
15:54:11 <wib_jonas> it's no surprise that debian unstable has more kernel versions
15:58:24 <int-e> The obvious improvement here would be to not regenerate the initrd after every single purge. Not sure how to achieve that.
15:59:49 <wib_jonas> how does that even become quadratic? 
16:00:21 <wib_jonas> I mean, maybe it regenerates the initrd with the current latest kernel version's modules every purge, but that's just linear,
16:00:39 <wib_jonas> plus it could regenerate the boot loader config file after every purge, which is technically quadratic but with a very small constant factor
16:01:46 <int-e> wib_jonas: because for some inexplicable reason, locating each of these images takes non-negligible time.
16:02:04 <int-e> so the initrd generation becomes noticably slower with more kernel images
16:02:43 <wib_jonas> also, out of curiosity, are you running debian unstable as a hobby for home, or for some job in sysadmin or similar capacity?
16:03:24 <int-e> This is at home. I wouldn't do it for servers. I would probably do it for my own software development needs if allowed.
16:03:54 <wib_jonas> not on live servers, sure, but are you doing it to be able to prepare for future system problems at work?
16:04:01 <int-e> It's a matter of laziness really... debian unstable is much better at having the latest versions of compilers and the like.
16:04:07 <wib_jonas> I'm asking more "for home" rather than "at home", 
16:04:20 <wib_jonas> I see
16:04:43 <int-e> And it is surprisingly stable, given the name.
16:05:28 <int-e> Make no mistake, I've seen it break badly... happens once, maybe twice a year, and *most* of the time it's easy to fix.
16:06:05 <wib_jonas> sure, but I prefer that to happen not at unpredictable times, but at the times when I decide to upgrade to the latest stable version and spend days setting it up and debugging problems
16:06:17 <int-e> The last such annoyance was firefox relying on sqllite interna.
16:06:36 <int-e> I don't do automatic updates anyway.
16:06:42 <wib_jonas> and for the software where I particularly care about having the latest version, which could be compilers, or gimp 2.10, or whatever, they're usually easy to install 
16:06:51 <wib_jonas> at least if you're not running a too old stable version
16:07:30 <int-e> Anyway, obviously this is not any kind of advice. For me, Debian unstable hits the sweet spot between stability and bleeding edge better than debian stable.
16:08:01 <int-e> And that may change.
16:08:20 <wib_jonas> sure, I don't do automatic updates either, I just put the security updates on occasionally, but those rarely break anything but firefox (which is its own sort of problem, debian basically doesn't have the resources to follow its changes), whereas for unstable you can't install just the security updates every month
16:08:30 <wib_jonas> sure, it can change
16:09:46 <wib_jonas> (I mean the above for my home machine; the work windows machine does run automatic updates)
16:10:00 <int-e> Also... I ran Gentoo for several years. So compared to that, Debian unstable is MUCH more convenient.
16:10:28 <int-e> (I can't justify Gentoo anymore except as a learning experience into how software is built and how many things can go wrong in the process.)
16:10:38 <wib_jonas> meanwhile, IOCCC submissions have ended
16:10:49 <wib_jonas> sure, I ran Gentoo too, but that was when I was young and had time for that sort of nonsense
16:10:57 <wib_jonas> and didn't know that I should be running debian
16:10:59 <esowiki> [[TTTTTTTT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+853) Created page with "'''TTTTTTTT''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]].  ==Etymology== This language got its name from its longest keyword, which is also the only character in its ke..."
16:11:02 <int-e> At least I have one or two good stories to tell.
16:11:44 <int-e> Like the point where I removed libacl because I wasn't using access control lists... and core-utils (uh, what's the old name of that again?) broke.
16:11:48 <wib_jonas> eventually I managed to break the gentoo system too much, at which point I tried ubuntu for a few weeks, decided it wasn't for me and purged it without a backup, installed debian, and I've been running debian ever since (though multiple different installations of debian)
16:11:52 <kmc> I ran Gentoo when I got an amd64 machine and Debian still didn't have good support for it
16:12:00 <kmc> that was in 2004
16:12:08 <kmc> when I was young and had time for that sort of nonsense
16:12:10 <arseniiv> . o O ( Debian unsatiable )
16:12:56 <int-e> kmc: Yeah I basically stopped using Gentoo when I finally got a job. :P
16:13:04 <arseniiv> …I need to try Debian in a virtual machine probably…
16:15:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70313&oldid=70264 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* "Hello" program */
16:17:35 <int-e> wib_jonas: Another related compromise would be Ubuntu (basically minus all the Ubuntu specific UI crap), which is sourced mainly from Debian unstable.
16:21:31 <esowiki> [[TTTTTTTT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70314&oldid=70312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+381) 
16:22:06 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70315&oldid=70299 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+276) /* Syntax */ clearing up Line 27
16:22:44 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70316&oldid=70315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Resources */
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16:28:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: well, it's been lots of years since I tried ubuntu, and it's changed during those years, so I can respectfully say that I'll consider that option and get back to them, and then never actually get back to them
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16:32:47 <cpressey> I used to use FreeBSD, back in the day. These days I use Ubuntu.
16:33:30 <kmc> i sold out and switched to windows
16:35:22 <int-e> how could you
16:35:40 <int-e> and do you use it through anything other than the wsl
16:37:44 <zzo38> I use Ubuntu, although without the desktop environment and window manager that was initially installed.
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17:29:06 <int-e> zzo38: yeah that's basically what I meant ;)
17:29:33 <zzo38> OK
17:30:10 <int-e> cpressey: Why FreeBSD and not OpenBSD or NetBSD? ;-) (No, I never had a dog in that fight. I don't even really know what the fight was about... just that there was one.)
17:30:58 <zzo38> (I use the i3 window manager, with no desktop environment. Programs should not usually be written to require a desktop environment; they should work without it, even if without a desktop environment may require some command-line options to be used which are not otherwise used.)
17:32:03 <int-e> It is lamentable... the latest development on that front is that certain programs have stopped to respect their working directory.
17:33:15 <int-e> All of GTK, I think. So if I start inkscape in a subdirectory and try to open a file I'll be in my home directory. Meh.
17:34:25 <wib_jonas> int-e: I don't care too much about them respecting the wd, but the gtk file dialogs are much worse than the windows ones, into which you can just paste a filename or a file from explorer
17:34:28 <cpressey> int-e: I actually like NetBSD better, from an aesthetic point of view, but FreeBSD has more users and a more pragmatic outlook, so it's the easier choice.
17:34:43 <wib_jonas> this is an area where windows manages to "just work" better
17:36:34 <int-e> I don't know. I like shells. I use working directories as contexts for projects. It's sad to see software add obstacles to that process, just because most users use visual desktop enviroments to manage their files.
17:37:24 <int-e> But it's not terrible, I complain and cope.
17:38:20 <int-e> I guess one big reason is that windows is less affected by a proliferation of toolkit libraries.
17:38:38 <int-e> (though it's mainly Qt and GTK these days.)
17:40:59 <zzo38> Yes, the Windows file dialog does work better tha GTK, although I would think is OK to just a simple text entry.
17:42:26 <int-e> @tell oerjan Agatha is such a terrbible mad scientist.
17:42:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:44:19 <Taneb> int-e: Agatha does also have to be a sovereign
17:44:35 <Taneb> Which requires... diplomacy
17:44:45 <int-e> Agatha? Krosp, yes. Agatha... hmm.
17:45:23 <int-e> Still having second thoughts, how does she stand it? It's so inefficient.
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18:02:36 <zzo38> Do audio tapes support index marks like VHS does? As far as I know, it doesn't, although I would think it would be a useful thing to have (or to fake it somehow).
18:16:01 <int-e> "carnivorous" is an interesting word these days... needed two attempts to read it correctly :)
18:16:25 <int-e> zzo38: weren't there some fancy tape recorders that could scan the tape for silence?
18:19:40 <int-e> (That's how it worked when doing it manually anyway... wait for interruptions inbetween all the squeaking.)
18:23:42 <zzo38> Maybe there is; I don't know. I think that there are four tracks (two on each side), so possibly one track could be used for index.
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19:14:13 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, but for resource reasons I only want one instance of gimp or other GUI programs (sometimes two instances or firefox), and not restart them every time, so the working directory isn't too useful as a context for them. 
19:14:52 <wib_jonas> zzo38: for audio tapes, you just write the index onto a carboard slip that you put into the casette holder
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19:50:18 <zzo38> wib_jonas: Yes, if you use the tape counter for this purpose, I suppose.
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21:06:17 <zzo38> Can <marquee> be disabled in Firefox? I am fine with <blink>, but I don't like <marquee>.
21:20:18 <zzo38> Rosewater wrote about themes in Magic: the Gathering, including color, type, subtype, supertype, zone, and other possibilities.
21:20:54 <zzo38> I thought, make the zone theme based on stack, ante, and command zone.
21:49:24 <int-e> whatever happened to the battlefield and phasing
21:50:13 <zzo38> Phasing is no longer a separate zone than the battlefield, although that can be a theme too I suppose
21:57:46 <b_jonas> I'm trying to draw a tiny bitmap font where characters are 6 pixels high. so now I have to research which accented letters languages use, because I have to make some of the following characters look identical: a-grave, a-acute, a-circumflex, a-diaresis, a-tilde, a-brevis, a-macron, a-dotabove.
21:58:14 <b_jonas> I decided early that o-circumflex and o-doubleacute can look the same, that's the easy part.
21:58:42 <b_jonas> And I don't think this font will be usable for vietnamese,
21:59:51 <b_jonas> and it would be better if the same accent looks the same on most vowels
22:03:39 <b_jonas> so I have to be concerned with french/welsh that distinguishes e-acute, e-grave, e-circumflex, e-diaresis; portugese which distinguishes a-acute, a-grave, a-circumflex, a-tilde; romanian that distinguishes a-brevis from a-circumflex; swedish/finnish which distinguishes a-umlaut from a-ring; icelandic that distinguishes o-acute from o-diaresis;
22:07:44 <b_jonas> as well as some romanizations of non-latin scripts, in particular the ISO 9 transcription of russian which distinguishes e-circumflex from e-diaresis (ok that's not a new constraint); I can probably give up on chinese pinyin transcription just as on vietnamese; what else am I forgetting?
22:12:10 <b_jonas> oh yeah, also czech distinguishes u-acute from u-ring.
22:15:02 <b_jonas> I think I'll do the following: grave is left pixel, acute is right pixel, umlaut/diaresis is left and right pixels, circumflex or double acute is middle and right pixel, tilde is left and middle pixel, macron is left and middle and right pixels, ring or brevis or middle dot is middle pixel alone, and I'll figure out what to do with the caron later, it has to be distinct from the middle dot and the acute 
22:15:08 <b_jonas> obviously
22:15:57 <b_jonas> no wait, that won't work, darn it
22:16:14 <b_jonas> the i with brevis has to differ from the i
22:16:44 <b_jonas> for latin
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22:18:37 <b_jonas> still, brevis as the middle dot is too mnemonic to give up. I might just special case the i with brevis
22:25:37 <b_jonas> ideally I should have a big table prepared for this that shows what letters each language and writing system that I commonly encounter use
22:29:57 <zzo38> I also thought a theme based on a supertype, could be world, and you can do more than what other sets have previously done, such as adding death triggers, world cards other than global enchantments, effects that add or remove the world supertype, that suppress the world rule temporarily, count world cards in some zone, etc.
22:31:41 <b_jonas> I actually have such a table for cyrillic, with five languages using cyrillic script, the serbian latin transcription, and the ISO 9 transcription (these two agree on every letter I think, but note that romanizations of ukranian differ, because і vs и vs ы)
22:36:23 <b_jonas> I can probably just use similar diacritics on most consonants: acute is right pixel, circumflex is middle and right pixels, dot above is middle pixel, and I think I'll mostly mark a caron with the left and middle pixel, except I'll have to figure out what to do with l/L/t/T with diacritics, those are ugly not only because there are so many diacritics that apply, but even the base letters are hard to 
22:36:29 <b_jonas> draw properly in small sizes and distinguishable from each other and i and c
22:40:10 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Turing machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70317 * Hakerh400 * (+30214) +[[Self-modifying Turing machine]]
22:40:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70318&oldid=70302 * Hakerh400 * (+36) +[[Self-modifying Turing machine]]
22:40:21 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70319&oldid=70279 * Hakerh400 * (+36) +[[Self-modifying Turing machine]]
22:44:53 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Turing machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70320&oldid=70317 * Hakerh400 * (+5) 
22:51:08 <b_jonas> oh yeah, the constraint is that this font should be somewhat readable to others, not just to me who knows what the font has, although of course my aesthetic decisions matter more
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01:41:31 <zzo38> Is it possible for a program called by xinetd to pass the connection to another program which is running (which will not necessarily be the first thing it does; it may communicate with the client before it does that), without needing to continue to run itself?
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01:52:11 <ais523> zzo38: the only way I know of would be to use an AF_UNIX socket to send the connected network socket as ancillary data
01:52:38 <ais523> that would duplicate the network socket into a different process, allowing the original process to exit without closing it
01:52:59 <int-e> one way is enough, certainly ;)
01:53:38 <int-e> I vaguely remembered this... took a while to home in on `man unix` and the section on SCM_RIGHTS.
01:54:27 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but will xinetd work properly if the program is doing that?
01:54:57 <ais523> I don't know for certain, but I wouldn't expect xinetd to be responsible for closing the socket itself
01:55:15 <ais523> it probably duplciates it to the child and closes its own copy, allowing the executed program to be responsible for closing the other copy
01:56:56 <ais523> (duplicating a file descriptor to a program you're about to execute is very easy, it's duplicating it to a program that's already running that's the hard part)
01:59:05 <zzo38> xinetd has the per_source option, I don't know if it would work properly if the program terminates. (I don't expect the rlimit options to work of course, meaning I would have to manage those by myself.)
02:26:28 <int-e> so... at a glance this will only break the obvious things: accounting (number of running instances, wait) and interception.
02:27:03 <int-e> per_source falls under accounting
02:27:45 <int-e> Also xinetd is a bit bigger than I expected.
02:28:03 <int-e> (but it's pretty nice code)
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03:45:57 <esowiki> [[Spiral Rise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70331&oldid=70322 * Ais523 * (+0) s/augend/addend/g (OK, so addition is commutative, but)
03:47:47 <esowiki> [[Zero Instruction Set Computer]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70332&oldid=54398 * Ais523 * (+18) /* Examples */ +[[Spiral Rise]]
03:56:48 <ais523> how many esolang interpreters detect tight infinite loops and optimize them into something with zero (or minimal) CPU usage?
03:57:20 <ais523> the only one I can think of offhand is Ratiofall, which if it can prove that the program is stuck in an infinite loop, indefinitely parks the thread
03:57:57 <int-e> some brainfuck interpreters?
03:58:01 <int-e> (and compilers)
03:59:32 <ais523> it seems like a natural thing to do but I'm not sure if many implementors thought of it
04:02:27 <int-e> Well, once you compress a straight line sequence of +->< into a few addition and subtractions, it's not a big effort to detect balanced code (that doesn't move the pointer) that just increments and decrements the current cell, and change the additions to multiplications accordingly.
04:02:58 <ais523> oh, that's optimizing tight /finite/ loops
04:03:03 <ais523> loads of interps do that (including Ratiofall)
04:03:32 <zzo38> Now will you write the document of Waterfall Construction Kit?
04:03:37 <int-e> ais523: Sorry, I skipped the "infinite" while reading.
04:03:41 <ais523> I'm talking more about optimizing something like +[] in BF into something that blocks forever without consuming CPU, such as an intentional deadlock
04:04:23 <ais523> zzo38: I need to work out what the language semantics are exactly, the great thing about an esolang that was only designed to write one program is that you don't have to care much about the details of the syntax or semantics
04:04:38 <ais523> especially if you subsequently compile that program by hand rather than using a compiler, and know what it's meant to mean
04:05:05 <int-e> In that case, I don't know... especially in a BF context, it seems rather pointless to have such code.
04:05:46 <int-e> (You can arrange for the program to terminate instead, though that may be a little bit inconvenient.)
04:06:20 <ais523> it's useful to save electricity when debugging esoprograms
04:06:32 <ais523> > let x = x in x
04:06:35 <lambdabot>  *Exception: <<loop>>
04:07:11 <ais523> some non-eso languages have basic infinite loop detection built in, too, although Haskell treats an infinite loop as an exception rather than optimising it
04:07:30 <ais523> (this is actually in the published language semantics, IIRC, that exceptions and infinite loops are considered equivalent)
04:07:46 <ais523> thus ghc can optimise one into the other
04:08:00 <ais523> > let x a = x a+1 in x 0
04:08:05 <int-e> In denotational semantics that don't care about IO, sure, all these things are bottom.
04:08:07 <lambdabot>  mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
04:08:19 <ais523> hmm, I'm vaguely surprised it didn't detect that one
04:09:30 <zzo38> A infinite loop with no I/O might as well be:  for(;;) pause();  if you do not need to track any variables by the debugger.
04:09:39 <int-e> GHC makes virtually *no* effort to detect infinite loops. The run-time system detects a very special case where a thread becomes blocked on a black hole that it created itself. It's a feature of the garbage collector.
04:09:55 <ais523> zzo38: right; which system call or library function you use there is up for debate, but pause seems reasonable
04:11:27 * ais523 tries strace ratiofall -d -e [[2,1],[1,1]]
04:11:37 <ais523> looks like it uses futex as its infinitely blocking system call
04:11:52 <ais523> which kind-of makes sense, as I implemented it using a park with no paired unpark
04:12:56 <int-e> > let x a = let r = r+1 in r in x 0 -- hmm
04:12:58 <lambdabot>  *Exception: <<loop>>
04:13:49 <int-e> I guess the x a = x a + 1 would work if compiled with optimization because of CSE.
04:15:25 <ais523> the equivalent Waterfall Model program is [[3,2,2],[1,1,2],[2,0,0]], which ratiofall appears to optimize at optimization level 2 or higher
04:15:28 <ais523> (at -O1 it doesn't notice)
04:16:20 <int-e> But that guess is actually wrong.
04:16:37 <int-e> Oh well, anybody relying on <<loop>> is a fool.
04:17:10 <ais523> my guess is that most infinite loop detection only exists in cases where it's more or less forced by the implementation technique of the interpreter
04:17:36 <ais523> e.g. ratiofall attempts to determine how many iterations a loop will go before it terminates, and thus infinitely many iterations is a special case that simply has to be handled
04:18:56 <int-e> Woah, this code is ancient. 2002. import List
04:19:19 <int-e> And it has a commented out  import PrelIOBase (unsafePerformIO) ... I didn't even remember that module name :)
04:20:14 <ais523> I guess Incident gets a special mention here: the language semantics require implementations to unilaterally break tight infinite loops (and give a precise definition and specify what point in the loop at which to break it)
04:21:58 <int-e> Okay I detected the offset-0 loop, turned it into an if-then-else, but kept the whole loop for the non-zero case.
04:24:41 <int-e> (There were reasons to keep the loop; it might contain output instructions.)
04:35:57 <esowiki> [[Unassignable]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70333&oldid=20158 * Ais523 * (-56) update intro; there is now a compiler into ABCDXYZ
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05:00:14 <esowiki> [[StackFlow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70334&oldid=54277 * Ais523 * (+1811) this language is now mostly obsolete due to [[The Waterfall Model]] (although it was helpful for the ~4 years in between); mention that in the intro to avoid misleading people, explain the relationship in detail lower down, and reorganise the TC proofs a little
05:39:36 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70335&oldid=58723 * Ais523 * (+410) /* External resources */ M:tG-related external resources
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08:40:30 <Lykaina> hi
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09:18:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70336&oldid=70255 * A * (-102) 
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11:50:17 <rain1> hello
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12:23:17 <wib_jonas> curse you, non-specific error message
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12:51:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move  * PythonshellDebugwindow *  moved [[TTTTTTTT]] to [[HGFTSNOA]]
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15:43:17 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70339&oldid=70337 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2507) 
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17:26:15 <ais523> `unicode MINUS SIGN
17:26:17 <HackEso> ​−
17:26:23 <ais523> I should really learn how to type that thing
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17:34:34 <rain1> yeh
17:40:31 <kspalaiologos> I've literally had the source code of bfbot reincarnation
17:40:38 <kspalaiologos> and then my OS decided he wants to die
17:40:57 <kspalaiologos> and the exact file containing 16KB of assembly code for it is gone forever, overwritten with NUL's
17:42:30 <ais523> ugh, are there any other copies?
17:42:50 <ais523> after a couple of similar incidents I configured my editor to store backup copies of everything I edit in an unrelated directory
17:43:00 <ais523> which serves as good insurance against that sort of thing
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17:51:28 <spruit11> `unicode forall
17:51:29 <HackEso> No output.
17:51:38 <spruit11> `unicode FORALL
17:51:39 <HackEso> No output.
17:51:42 <spruit11> Hmm.
17:55:22 <spruit11> Ah.
17:55:26 <spruit11> `unicode for all
17:55:27 <HackEso> ​∀
17:55:30 <spruit11> Right.
18:03:46 <int-e> universal crisis averted
18:04:02 <tromp> int-e: my pre-optimization oddperfect is 337 bits :-(
18:04:19 <tromp> need some serious optimizing now
18:05:31 <tromp> i still have an ugly pred in there to consider only divisors 1..n-1
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18:37:25 <int-e> yeah I was happy to get away without pred :)
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19:01:35 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70340&oldid=70328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Languages */
19:02:30 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70341&oldid=70339 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Datatypes */
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19:33:33 <b_jonas> kspalaiologos: hardware failure => ouch, that sucks
20:12:13 <b_jonas> darn. I realized that I can't deny that I'm a prepper, at least to a small amount, because I was looking at the stockpiles of stuff I have at home, and started to think of what I have too much or too little of and how I could improve this.
20:13:22 <longname> That doesn't really make you a prepper
20:13:40 <b_jonas> certainly not a full prepper
20:13:58 <longname> Prepping implies that you're focusing on a disaster situation to such a degree where it overshadows your daily life
20:14:00 <b_jonas> but I can't claim myself entirely innocent of the mindset
20:14:16 <longname> But it's perfectly rational to want to keep a reasonable stockpile of supplies
20:14:19 <b_jonas> eww no, that's a bad derogative definition
20:14:26 <b_jonas> you can certainly be a prepper in a good way
20:14:33 <zzo38> I keep backups on DVDs, but it would also be possible to keep backups of public files on remote services too (perhaps in addition to DVDs)
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20:37:44 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70342&oldid=70341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+397) 
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20:44:00 <rain1> good to be prepared
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20:59:48 <esowiki> [[Spiral Rise]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70343&oldid=70331 * Ais523 * (+1089) /* Implementations */ comment the implementation in The Waterfall Model, so that people besides me might get some idea of what this is actually doing
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21:29:46 <zzo38> I don't hate Hitler's art so much, even though some people do (they say they have no soul, and other stuff).
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22:52:04 <zzo38> Which is better, putting both parts of a split card (or flip card, or double face card, or adventurer card, etc) in one record, or in two records linked together, or something else other than this? I can think of advantages for each case, and disadvantages.
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23:22:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: I suggest to put each card face of split/flip/double-sided/meld card to a separate record, but put the stripes in the text boxes of level up, saga and planeswalker to the same record. if you want a simpler structure, link the face records together, recording what all the other faces are, why there are multiple faces, and the order of these faces. 
23:23:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you're ok with a more complex structure, then have a type of record for cards and a type of record for faces, link the list of faces from the cards, and possibly create faces for the unique tokens described in rules texts as well.
23:26:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's some irregularity involved because the faces of a double-sided or split card have separate expansion symbols and artist credits, whereas the faces of a flip card doesn't, but I hope that the set symbols and artist credits of each face of the card should be the same
23:29:14 <zzo38> Yes, I would think the set symbols for each face of the card are the same, and perhaps also the collector number, although there may be the possibility for the artist's name to differ (although I don't know if this is the case with any existing cards)
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23:32:17 <zzo38> (Probably the rarity is also the same for both faces; I don't know why it would be different.)
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23:34:50 <zzo38> Meld cards are another different thing though. They are two separate cards, and the melded side probably does not have a rarity at all, although I suppose the two separate cards could have the same or different rarity.
23:44:53 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70344 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+216) Created page with "'''Insanity''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Its based on Einsteins definition of insanitydoing the same thing over and over again and expecting a..."
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23:45:13 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70345&oldid=70340 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Languages */
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2020-03-18:

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02:30:55 <zzo38> Now I have the following fields: ID, Kind (e.g. normal, flip, split, double-face, adventurer, meld, melded form), Secondary (used with Kind), Name, ManaCost, Type (also includes color indicator), Power, Toughness, Loyalty, HandMod, LifeMod, Text, Flavor, Art, IllustrationCredit, Rarity, Number (auto calculated), Watermark, Meld_ID, Other_ID. Probably some difference should be made, though.
02:45:54 <zzo38> I am adding a few more now, since I think I may need a few more.
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03:38:30 <esowiki> [[GenericLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70346 * Quadril-Is * (+1506) Created page with "'''GenericLang''' is an esolang made by [[User:Quadril-Is|Quadril-Is]] which was intended to be generic but it didn't. <br /><br /> It was created while trying to find a good..."
03:49:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Realyunggranny *  New user account
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07:54:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70347&oldid=70336 * A * (-1747) 
07:56:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70348&oldid=70347 * A * (+122) 
08:02:33 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70349&oldid=70348 * A * (+223) 
08:03:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70350&oldid=70349 * A * (+12) 
08:04:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70351&oldid=70350 * A * (+1) /* Example (Infinite counter) */
08:07:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70352&oldid=70351 * A * (+40) /* Range from 2 to 100. */
08:08:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70353&oldid=70352 * A * (+19) 
08:08:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70354&oldid=70353 * A * (+1) /* Count up with a step of 2, starting with 2. */
08:09:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70355&oldid=70354 * A * (+1) /* Digital root calculator */
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08:17:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70356&oldid=70355 * A * (+75) 
08:26:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70357&oldid=70356 * A * (+296) 
08:34:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70358&oldid=70357 * A * (-44) 
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10:07:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70359&oldid=70358 * A * (+81) 
10:20:19 <esowiki> [[Counting]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70360 * D * (+139) Created page with "[[Counting]] is a language invented by [[User:A]] based on When blocks. [[Category:2020]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
10:22:02 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70361&oldid=70360 * A * (+1260) Add my notes
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10:48:42 <wib_jonas> Ok wait, so the parliament has indefinitely forbidden gatherings. Isn't that a fucking softlock, because now the members of the parliament can't gather either?
10:49:28 <wib_jonas> There are a few exceptions, but they don't apply to them.
10:55:21 <wib_jonas> I guess they can just gather illegally, and if they're fined, they divide the cost among each other. 
11:01:10 <Taneb> wib_jonas: hmm, in the UK they'd have parliamentary privilege which means they're protected against liability for actions done in the course of their legislative duties
11:02:55 <wib_jonas> Hmm yes, they have some such sort of privilage. 
11:03:44 <wib_jonas> Also, they news says that gatherings can be punished by a fine up to 500000 HUF. if most of the 200 members of parliament chip in, then that fine is really cheap.
11:04:19 <wib_jonas> It's not much more expense over the normal costs of having a parliament.
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12:18:36 <FireFly> that's why you enact all the necessary legislation before enacting that one, to avoid softlocking so you have to reset the world *nod*
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14:01:06 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70362&oldid=70316 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Syntax */
14:01:30 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70363&oldid=70362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 
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14:16:21 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70364&oldid=70363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) /* Syntax */
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14:58:42 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70365&oldid=70361 * A * (-152) 
15:00:41 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70366&oldid=70365 * A * (+43) 
15:18:27 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70367&oldid=70364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Resources */
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18:32:23 <zzo38> Do you like to play any game by IRC?
18:32:51 <int-e> I hate *this* game.
18:33:31 <zzo38> Which game do you prefer?
18:39:25 <imode> being creative is difficult.
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19:00:41 <imode> you gotta like, do shit.
19:04:37 <myname> ack
19:04:43 <int-e> `? life
19:04:44 <HackEso> ​‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
19:05:44 <longname> The game.
19:06:07 <zzo38> Chess game can easily be done by IRC; card game is more difficult, I think.
19:07:23 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_poker
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19:29:20 <Hooloovo0> I've played bbs uno
19:29:43 <Hooloovo0> people have tried to get me to do poker on irc, but duckhunt was always better
19:31:06 <int-e> longname: Spoiler: I knew what the wisdom entry says.
20:08:41 <esowiki> [[Fibonacci]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70368 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) Could use a redirect for this page
20:37:51 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70369&oldid=70367 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Syntax */
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21:03:20 <longname> `?
21:03:21 <HackEso> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:08:06 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70370&oldid=70342 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1232) 
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22:59:14 <b_jonas> [ 2000%60
22:59:14 <j-bot> b_jonas: 33.3333
23:00:09 <int-e> that use of % seems a bit divisive
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23:38:33 <esowiki> [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70371&oldid=70261 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Resources */
23:39:56 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70372&oldid=70369 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) /* Resources */
23:41:11 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70373&oldid=70370 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Fibonacci numbers until variable t (finish) (help in InfiniteGoto interpreter) */
23:41:28 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70374&oldid=70372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Resources */
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2020-03-19:

00:48:36 <zzo38> Make up some Magic: the Gathering cards (of any type, including nontraditionals) for your GURPS or D&D characters.
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01:47:54 <esowiki> [[The Subtyping Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70375&oldid=66172 * Ais523 * (-2) /* Relationship to Java */ typo fix
01:55:24 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70376&oldid=70366 * A * (+73) Out has string support so...
01:57:00 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70377&oldid=70376 * A * (+122) 
02:00:55 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70378&oldid=70377 * A * (+111) 
02:04:16 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70379&oldid=70378 * A * (+10) /* Fibonacci sequence */
02:07:59 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70380&oldid=70379 * A * (+36) /* Fibonacci sequence */
02:10:25 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70381&oldid=70380 * A * (+27) /* Fibonacci sequence */
02:11:38 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70382&oldid=70381 * A * (+19) /* Fibonacci sequence */
02:12:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70383&oldid=68897 * YamTokTpaFa * (+165) /* HQ9+ Derivatives */
02:12:13 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70384&oldid=70382 * A * (+3) 
02:24:18 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70385&oldid=70271 * A * (+119) /* comp */
02:24:31 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70386&oldid=70385 * A * (+1) /* =Counting */
02:58:42 <esowiki> [[Insanity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70387&oldid=70344 * A * (+139) /* Program structure */
02:59:25 <esowiki> [[Insanity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70388&oldid=70387 * A * (+110) 
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03:03:04 <esowiki> [[Insanity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70389&oldid=70388 * A * (+322) 
03:05:12 <esowiki> [[Insanity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70390&oldid=70389 * A * (+146) It's insanity to leave it unspecified.
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03:11:55 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70391&oldid=69519 * A * (+206) 
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04:38:12 <esowiki> [[IBC]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70392&oldid=68714 * Quadril-Is * (-5) Undo revision 68714 by [[Special:Contributions/Hex96|Hex96]] ([[User talk:Hex96|talk]])
04:38:24 <esowiki> [[IBC]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70393&oldid=70392 * Quadril-Is * (+1) /* system 32 deleter */
04:38:50 <esowiki> [[IBC]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70394&oldid=70393 * Quadril-Is * (-2) 
05:24:07 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70395&oldid=70063 * A * (-1) Why's that a valid program...
05:28:32 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70396&oldid=70384 * JonoCode9374 * (+121) 
05:30:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Alphaprint]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70397&oldid=69545 * A * (+459) 
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05:48:34 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70398&oldid=70391 * A * (+200) 
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06:40:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Alphaprint]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70399&oldid=70397 * A * (+332) /* Interpreter in Python */
07:54:57 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70400&oldid=70396 * A * (+138) 
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08:10:17 <esowiki> [[Counting]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70401&oldid=70400 * A * (+126) /* Triangular Numbers */
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09:39:53 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-mACduP9VM do you like this youtube channel?
10:16:07 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70402&oldid=69585 * Dtuser1337 * (+1640) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
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10:16:47 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70403&oldid=70402 * Dtuser1337 * (-18) 
10:17:46 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70404&oldid=70403 * Dtuser1337 * (+15) 
10:18:29 <arseniiv_> rain1: thanks the preview and several frames seem interesting to watch something later!
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10:19:22 <arseniiv> microscopic imagery is interesting, and if they make videos of living things, this is even better
10:19:58 <arseniiv> there’s so much unexpected still after any usual biology classes
10:21:16 <rain1> yeah
10:21:19 <arseniiv> even a simple cell division is an intricate process which I honestly hadn’t watched yet; I hope they have something on it
10:21:57 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70405&oldid=70404 * Dtuser1337 * (+25) 
10:22:18 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70406&oldid=70405 * Dtuser1337 * (+2) /* See Also */
10:23:41 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70407&oldid=70406 * Dtuser1337 * (+2) 
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10:29:00 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70408&oldid=70407 * Dtuser1337 * (-1664) 
10:39:40 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70409 * Dtuser1337 * (+1663) My first esolang published
10:40:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70410&oldid=70318 * Dtuser1337 * (+19) /* B */
10:42:21 <esowiki> [[User:Dtuser1337]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70411&oldid=65458 * Dtuser1337 * (+36) 
10:43:32 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70412&oldid=70409 * Dtuser1337 * (+43) adding some categories
10:49:44 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70413&oldid=70412 * Dtuser1337 * (+104) Computational class
10:58:29 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70414&oldid=70311 * Dtuser1337 * (+63) /* Variants of deadfish */
11:01:07 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70415&oldid=69003 * Dtuser1337 * (+58) /* See also */
11:01:34 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70416&oldid=70413 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* See Also */ just in case
11:02:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70417&oldid=70414 * Dtuser1337 * (-4) /* Variants of deadfish */ we do not need link since it already avaliable on this article, really.
11:07:46 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70418&oldid=70416 * Dtuser1337 * (+33) something tells me that i needed to add a brainfuck related categories.
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11:56:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Dtuser1337 *  uploaded "[[File:Shortbrainlollerhelloworld.png]]"
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11:57:41 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70420&oldid=56701 * Dtuser1337 * (+4) a better, less jpeg-like image replacement
11:58:34 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70421&oldid=69428 * Dtuser1337 * (+4) /* Brainloller */
11:59:42 <esowiki> [[BrainfisHQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70422&oldid=70418 * Dtuser1337 * (-104) we dont need that stupid computation class shit
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12:15:08 <esowiki> [[Chasing the output]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70423 * Hakerh400 * (+4332) +[[Chasing the output]]
12:15:12 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70424&oldid=70319 * Hakerh400 * (+39) +[[Chasing the output]]
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13:22:35 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Turing machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70425&oldid=70320 * Hakerh400 * (+28) 
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15:04:14 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70426&oldid=70395 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Output */
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15:26:59 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70427&oldid=70398 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Interpreter in Python */
15:30:00 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70428&oldid=70427 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* Interpreter in Python */
15:45:17 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70429&oldid=70428 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* in Io */
15:52:50 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70430&oldid=70373 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+302) /* Fibonacci numbers until variable t (finish) (help in InfiniteGoto interpreter) */
16:02:54 <wib_jonas> fungot, do you *really* believe that Obadiah rode a 3-headed land-shark into battle against the Edomites?
16:02:54 <fungot> wib_jonas: it'd be nice if you want a more detailed example?
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16:14:59 <wib_jonas> fungot: how much is a pillion in the short system?
16:14:59 <fungot> wib_jonas: it should be possible to calculate totally accurate probabilities for that case... i assumed that x meant x
16:15:16 <wib_jonas> what a non-answer
16:17:08 <Taneb> > 10 ** (3 + 3*pi)
16:17:11 <lambdabot>  2.659365073955536e12
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17:52:02 <tromp_> int-e: i seem to be at 272 bits so far
17:52:51 <tromp_> not using any church numerals
17:56:31 <zzo38> This is my schema so far for a database for making a set of Magic: the Gathering cards:  http://sprunge.us/aCqKLz  You can please make a comment of it.
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19:03:50 <tromp> down to 264
19:04:14 <zzo38> To 264 of what?
19:04:44 <tromp> 264 bits for odd perfect number program
19:07:16 <int-e> tromp: ah I decided early on to stick to Church numerals and see what I get.
19:07:40 <tromp> i'm sticking with Scott numerals
19:08:24 <int-e> I can see how that might help.
19:23:12 <rain1> so the perfect number came out shorter than laver tables?
19:25:25 <tromp> no, laver tables is 213 bits i think
19:25:48 <tromp> don't think oddperfect can beat that
19:26:48 <b_jonas> how do you even test these? 
19:27:18 <b_jonas> I guess you could put printfs in them to print intermediate results
19:27:22 <tromp> i tested a subroutine to return tru for 6 and 28
19:27:32 <tromp> and false for all other numbers under 100
19:27:42 <b_jonas> oh nice, testing on even numbers
19:35:36 <ais523> how do Scott numerals work?
19:36:30 <tromp> scott_0    =   \s\z. z;  scott_succ = \n\s\z.s n;
19:37:02 <tromp> e.g scott_1 = \s\z.s scott_0
19:43:30 <tromp> down to 261
19:43:52 <tromp> using both Church and Scott now
19:46:16 <b_jonas> do you optimize the order of arguments in the representation too?
19:46:41 <tromp> i try to optimize every last bit
19:46:53 <tromp> so yeah, including order of args
19:47:22 <tromp> only requirement is program halts iff exists odd perfect number
19:48:19 <b_jonas> and that you can prove that, right?
19:48:30 <tromp> yes
19:51:38 <int-e> Hmm, termination only, that's another difference. I actually produce the perfect number.
19:53:09 <tromp> oh, then you can improve further
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20:06:41 <tromp> down to 248
20:27:40 <tromp> down to 240
20:40:17 <tromp> down to 239
20:44:23 <zzo38> I thought they don't know if there are any odd perfect numbers
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20:49:06 <tromp> right; so we dont know if this prog halts
20:50:05 <zzo38> OK
20:51:56 <rain1> the goal is to produce short programs whose halting is in question
20:52:03 <tromp> oops; my last few optimizations were bad:(
20:52:13 <tromp> so still at 248
20:53:28 <tromp> down to 247
21:02:33 <arseniiv> have written an almost correct backgammon with CLI, but the code isn’t all what I wanted. A part of it reads I think nice, but there are a couple of amalgamous imperative monsters like a function which prints the board, or a main loop, though I’ve done much to make the loop simple right from the start. Much to desire, but I’ll continue tweaking it the next day at best
21:03:09 <arseniiv> and it ends up not much of a FSA it was intended
21:03:53 <arseniiv> and not as strong-typed, because mypy
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21:05:29 <arseniiv> oh, I think CLI is not the right word, just a text-based interface, no options given on launch
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21:06:34 <tromp> int-e: added mine to repo
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21:13:44 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70431&oldid=70033 * Rerednaw * (+1) /* Ctrl+V version */ Correction of spelling errors
21:30:17 <int-e> tromp: I'll look at it at some point but for now I'm trying really hard to resist the temptation.
21:43:44 <tromp> ah, nice trick you have to not avoid n as divisor of n :-)
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22:11:56 <esowiki> [[ASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70432 * Apollyon094 * (+2178) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=Alternating State Machine |author=[[Asher I]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=:Cat..."
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22:14:20 <esowiki> [[ASM]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70433&oldid=70432 * Apollyon094 * (+11) 
22:15:17 <esowiki> [[ASM]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70434&oldid=70433 * Apollyon094 * (+90) 
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22:22:28 <esowiki> [[ASM]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70435&oldid=70434 * Apollyon094 * (+66) 
22:29:46 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70436&oldid=69889 * Apollyon094 * (+61) 
22:30:44 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70437&oldid=70436 * Apollyon094 * (+30) 
22:30:55 <esowiki> [[User:Apollyon094]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70438&oldid=70437 * Apollyon094 * (+0) 
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23:00:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:ASCII art/mandelbrot]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70439&oldid=68086 * Apollyon094 * (+131) 
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23:23:27 <fizzie> I don't know why, but I really like the Machine with Concrete.

2020-03-20:

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00:36:49 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70440&oldid=70236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) 
00:43:31 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70441&oldid=70440 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22681) /* Commands */
00:43:50 <longname> That seems...annoying to look at
00:44:06 <longname> kinda neat though.
01:05:53 <arseniiv> “of the Russian transliteration (kind of) of "Jelly" (which is "Желлый")” => wh…what?? O_o
01:06:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to write in Russian?
01:06:24 <arseniiv> I’d say джелли is a perfectly normal transliteration
01:06:48 <arseniiv> zzo38: yeah :)
01:06:54 <zzo38> OK, good
01:11:32 <arseniiv> though now I wonder if I mix transliteration with something else, hm, like this one I wrote reads as near to “jelly” as possible (if one considers reading double лл as a non-geminated consonant, which is usually the case), but it’s also a transliteration. Though “джели” wouldn’t be a transliteration, and it may be a more preferred as a transcription (though someone may disagree)
01:12:00 <zzo38> What is the Russian word for "jelly", though?
01:13:11 <oerjan> hm how would дж be pronounced, is either consonant assimilated to the other?
01:13:50 <oerjan> @messages-loud
01:13:50 <lambdabot> int-e said 3d 7h 31m 24s ago: Agatha is such a terrbible mad scientist.
01:14:30 <oerjan> because a dental followed by a retroflex is not something my tongue wants to pronounce
01:15:23 <oerjan> (then again, i'm not russian.)
01:17:04 <arseniiv> (also someone may accidentally put the accent on the last syllable, and it would be suboptimal; one can prevent that from happening by writing the accent mark explicitly: дже́лли, but as Russian is not Spanish, excessive accenting may be frowned upon; and this is sad)
01:17:04 <arseniiv> zzo38: желе (more for fruit ones), студень (also may be used for non-edible things), холодец (this one usually contains pieces of meat), and maybe a special chemical term which I forgot
01:18:32 <oerjan> int-e: someone has to be the sane one to save the world
01:21:20 <arseniiv> notable that холодец and студень is formed more or less like Latin gelata (from which, gelatine and jelly via French) — both relate to something cold/frozen/solidified, though all of them in different ways, no long-distance relations here, just a jelly preparation wisdom :D
01:21:48 <arseniiv> (and желе is most probably via that same French too)
01:25:24 <oerjan> <ais523> corollary: Fractran is almost certainly TC with 6 fractions, although the size of the fractions is probably going to be astronomical <-- cool
01:25:34 <arseniiv> oerjan: oh sorry I missed your question, one sec
01:27:31 <arseniiv> I think in most cases д would be a retroflex one, or at least something closer to retroflex than a usual dental д, and ж should stay unchanged
01:28:35 <arseniiv> also as дж is in most normal cases not an affricate, it can have a relatively long (phonetically) transition between д and ж and then it’s not that hard to pronounce
01:30:15 <oerjan> ah
01:30:20 <arseniiv> though of course if you’d read a thorough phonetic work on this, prefer it to my rationalizations, I’m not a phonetics specialist
01:35:14 <arseniiv> also someday I need to complete reading a J. C. Catford’s “A practical introduction to phonetics”, a neat book with experimental interludes to make oneself closer to understanding what can be articulated by us humans :D Maybe not a monograph but very useful. I learned how to make ejectives and something, though without practice I already unlearned that. Though it’s fixable as easily
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01:36:59 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't @tell that part, but I also complained that having second thoughts is so inefficient :)
01:41:23 <oerjan> ah. i didn't get to it in the logs yet, lambdabot just pinged me
01:42:10 <oerjan> i also dislike second thoughts, especially when they happen after i've already started following the first one.
01:45:11 <oerjan> i see Para Ventura also does not count restoration from backup as immortality.
01:46:36 <oerjan> someone should remember to back up Cindy, though.
01:46:59 <int-e> mmm
01:47:27 <int-e> Oh it updated already. (Of course, I'm just bad with time zones.)
01:48:01 <oerjan> it's just a few weeks while the US has transited to DST but Europe hasn't
01:50:43 <int-e> I would hope that Cindy's backing herself up, actually.
01:51:19 <int-e> Though the backup location may be Petey's domain and that's a prime target... I wonder how distributed He is.
01:55:28 <oerjan> istr the toughs backup to eina afa
01:56:02 <oerjan> some distribution is still in order
01:56:38 <esowiki> [[Line Feed]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70442&oldid=70429 * A * (+92) Let's keep both interpreters
02:11:40 <int-e> Oh well, I'm re-reading some old lessons in ethics. https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-04-15
02:16:55 <int-e> (I was really looking for the first appearance of Petey, which comes 2 weeks later)
02:23:42 <oerjan> i followed that link, clicked Next, and got somewhat astounded by the art evolution of dr. bunnigus.
02:28:03 <int-e> 19 years is a long time
02:28:34 <int-e> FWIW, https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-05-18 is where they finally agree on "Petey"
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17:13:07 <esowiki> [[Infinite Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70443&oldid=70374 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Resources */
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19:01:25 <kspalaiologos> we've got some cool fonts right
19:01:30 <kspalaiologos> where are they again?
19:02:02 <kspalaiologos> for terminals
19:02:10 <kspalaiologos> I'm getting tired of my IBM BIOS dump
19:03:42 <int-e> `? fonts
19:03:43 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
19:04:32 <kspalaiologos> yeah
19:04:33 <kspalaiologos> thats this one
19:05:06 <kspalaiologos> \oren\'s font is a bit unreadable to me
19:05:09 <kspalaiologos> but it's gorgeous
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20:22:56 <zzo38> What improvements do you think should be made to the SQLite virtual table mechanism?
20:38:45 <int-e> zzo38: Have you stopped beating your wife?
20:40:35 <zzo38> I do not have a wife.
20:50:28 <b_jonas> 18 smaller apples eh?
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21:06:59 <zzo38> What about small apples eh?
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21:29:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: sorry, it's today's xkcd
21:34:32 <zzo38> O, that's what it is.
21:36:34 <int-e> tbf, you just don't picture it all at once
21:38:17 <int-e> Imagine a 1m^3 cube, zoom in on a corner of 1mm^3 size, imagine that's your new 1m^3 cube. Repeat 4 times. Imagine that the cube you are now left with is 10 bytes then put it all together again.
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21:41:22 <arseniiv> I think either I’ve gone crazy or I got an amalgamation of effects with coeffects, at least for a simple formulation of either, and in context of applicative programming with quotes
21:41:51 <int-e> arseniiv: how about both?
21:42:06 <arseniiv> maybe both :′(
21:43:13 <int-e> (But sorry, no constructive feedback is forthcoming from me; I can't bring myself to figure out what that might say.)
21:44:58 <arseniiv> all in all, an effect constructors abuses the part after it upto the end of the handled chunk; a coeffect constructor “retroactively” abuses a chunk from the start of the handled chunk upto before itself. Now we can make a bracket of these constructors, beginning with effect ctor and ending with coeffect ctor, and they would abuse the code between them, when handled
21:46:30 <int-e> where is the department for the prevention of code abuse when you need it
21:48:07 <arseniiv> though one needsnot only a handler but four extra additional converting routine arguments in case the bracket would be malformed. Usual effects with handlers use just a single one, when no effect constructor was called, and my coeffect analogy uses just one too, but this one seems to need four
21:48:52 <arseniiv> if this thing would work, I name it proeffects, as in “profunctor”
21:49:48 <arseniiv> though I’m explicitly not sure if it may be useful and if it may be generalized upto what effects-with-algebraic-declarations-and-handlers-and-whatnot are now
21:50:44 <arseniiv> on the plus side, in this case one doesn’t need separate effect and coeffect tagging on types
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21:52:16 <vivax> hello
21:52:44 <arseniiv> `relcome
21:52:46 <HackEso> ​Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:57:55 <arseniiv> at least I hope I’ll be able to explain what I did for effects in this concatenative typed setting. int-e would you be interested?
21:59:25 <int-e> sorry, no
21:59:32 <arseniiv> ah okay no problem
22:00:19 <arseniiv> I’ll make an exposition anyway I think :D
22:24:28 <arseniiv> anyone familiar enough with Haskell types and concatenative languages should I think be able to get the following:
22:24:28 <arseniiv> we’ll type a stack as a heterogeneous list of types of its elements, like [bottom] 2 'a' [top] will have a type Char::Int::Nil. Usually one considers only several top elements of the stack, typing the mentioned one as Char::Int::xs or Char::xs or xs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> a single-word function would be typed as xs → ys. Now suppose we can quote parts of the code, writing that as [<code>]. If <code> : ts₁ → ts₂, then [<code>] : xs → [ts₁ → ts₂]::xs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> enter effects. We would denote the type of a function xs → ys having effects E when applied, as xs −E→ ys. Now we can type a concatenation simply as: f : xs −E₁→ ys, g : ys −E₂→ zs ⊢ f g : xs −(E₁∪E₂)→ zs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> let ESig e vs rs express that any constructor of effect named e takes vs and leaves rs (this is a simplistic setting); and we can add two primitives, effect and handle, with types
22:24:28 <arseniiv> effect : ESig e vs rs ⇒ vs −{e}→ rs;  handle : ESig e vs rs ⇒ [[rs −E→ bs]::vs −E′→ cs]::[bs −E″→ cs]::[as −E→ bs]::as −((E\{e})∪E′∪E″)→ cs;
22:24:28 <arseniiv> effect is obvious, it just makes an effect. handle takes an effect handler, a normal return handler, and a code in which we would handle the effect e;
22:24:29 <arseniiv> when a constructor is handled, the handler receives an additional delimited continuation, from the constructor upto the end of the code being handled, and the handler may choose to continue with it any numer of times or to return early;
22:24:29 <arseniiv> this is not new but the presentation for the concatenative setting may be or not be interesting. The dual thing would give a continuation from the start of the code upto a constructor, and I hope that captures something coeffectful;
22:24:30 <arseniiv> that’s all! I’ll go read something about coeffects once again or maybe I’m going to play backgammon with a friend. Hopefully this isn’t too long
22:25:19 <arseniiv> s/isn’t/wasn’t
22:28:38 <arseniiv> ah, also: executing effectful code would be straightforward, using a call stack enhanced with “handle entries” using as delimiters. Executing a coeffectful code will require a translation of the code, as one needs to handle constructors right to left
22:29:02 <arseniiv> (if I’m not mistaken)
22:31:44 <arseniiv> and the translation should might be done very simply (with effects, too), quoting all the continuations which would be required to handle each constructor, and add some glue
22:35:20 <arseniiv> s/“handle entries” using as delimiters/…used…
22:42:42 <zzo38> I am making a major template for making Magic: the Gathering cards with TeXnicard. This includes .auto. command to automatically fill in some fields (such as the collector numbers and color identity), and .errors. command to tell you what errors it detects in the current record.
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23:54:29 <int-e> `? economics
23:54:30 <HackEso> economics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:54:47 <int-e> `learn Economics is just applied numerology.
23:54:50 <HackEso> Learned 'economic': Economics is just applied numerology.
23:55:03 <b_jonas> `? just
23:55:04 <HackEso> Just is just a just adverb.
23:55:08 <int-e> ``mv wisdom/economic{,s}
23:55:09 <HackEso> ​`mv? No such file or directory
23:55:13 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/economic{,s}
23:55:14 <HackEso> mv: cannot stat 'wisdom/economic': No such file or directory
23:55:34 <int-e> right, what's that environment variable again?
23:56:02 <int-e> Or I could use the .. trick
23:56:33 <int-e> `` mv $HACKENV/wisdom/economic{,s}
23:56:35 <HackEso> No output.
23:57:14 <int-e> `hwrl economics
23:57:15 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/economics

2020-03-21:

00:23:25 <fizzie> $HACKENV is just /hackenv, FWIW.
00:23:52 <fizzie> In scripts it is useful, but in interactive command lines less so, except maybe it's easier to remember one.
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01:11:10 <zzo38> There was a short power outage.
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01:31:32 <zzo38> Why sometimes stopped cursor blinking?
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01:33:27 <int-e> . o O ( I imagine a power outage would stop the cursor from blinking )
01:34:22 <zzo38> No, it just stopped blinking in the IRC window (which is a xterm window); the cursor blinking works in my other xterm windows.
01:36:44 <zzo38> O, it is working now.
01:39:39 <int-e> I don't think the cursor is blinking in inactive windows.
01:40:45 <zzo38> The window wasn't inactive.
01:41:24 <int-e> eww. https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECSCUSR
01:42:39 <zzo38> I know about that, but as far as I know I didn't use that.
01:42:49 <int-e> Though I never really realized that some programs toggle the behavior (e.g., emacs).
01:42:52 * int-e shrugs.
01:43:17 <int-e> Tbf I hardly ever use emacs in a terminal anyway.
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02:12:33 <zzo38> I have a book with acrostic enigma puzzles.
02:32:36 <zzo38> A county in Cambria's land / (Unaccompanied here) we demand.
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05:40:01 <zzo38> Hopefully those who have a amateur radio station set up at their home can still transmit and receive ARRL radiogram messages even without people physically traveling anywhere.
05:42:25 <zzo38> (Although some things of it will be difficult without people physically traveling anywhere.)
05:52:39 <kmc> I have an amateur radio station set up at my home!
05:52:48 <kmc> I have never transmitted or received an ARRL radiogram, though
05:56:33 <zzo38> Will you be able to do it if I ask you to do so in future? (I don't need it now, though.) I can format the message myself, although some things you will have to fill in by yourself such as the message number and the station name.
06:10:48 <kmc> I'll have to brush up on the procedures, but yes
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06:23:36 <zzo38> OK
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07:34:53 <int-e> . o O ( Boris Johnson wants to recruit retired medical personnel in the covid-19 crisis. Remind me, which people were the ones most at risk of severe illness when contracting the virus? )
07:40:25 <int-e> It may be the best option at this point. It's just very hard not to be cynical about all this. The covid-19 pandemic is the biggest socioeconomic experiment ever. Mistakes will be made (and different countries are making different mistakes.) Hopefully we will learn from them for the future.
08:05:10 <int-e> GRRRRRR. Google and its stupid war on so-called "less secure apps".
08:15:57 <int-e> Apparently I don't send enough emails from my gmail account and Google decides it's "unused" and resets that option.
08:16:40 <int-e> This is almost as silly as Windows telling me there are unused icons on my desktop... when I boot into it after a month. (Though I think I've disabled that now.)
08:17:18 <int-e> The Windows thing is less aggravating though because I can simply ignore the fact rather than jumping through hoops to resend the email.
08:28:45 <int-e> Also why Google doesn't allow application-specific passwords without 2FA I'll never understand.
08:30:14 <int-e> I feel I've complained about this at length before.
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10:04:16 <fizzie> int-e: I don't know about "at length", but you have complained about it, and I don't understand it either. Also, I don't understand why "app-specific passwords" aren't actually use-specific, in the sense that you could specify what specifically they can be used for.
10:04:34 <fizzie> Well, I guess I do understand it, it'd be pretty complicated from the user perspective.
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10:05:52 <fizzie> But it would still be nice that I could, I don't know, pick which OAuth2 scopes those passwords are valid for.
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10:13:04 <fizzie> Speaking about 2FA, I got 4 security keys for the price of 2 thanks to... well, some link in the chain of postal delivery. The original letter hadn't arrived in a month, so they shipped a new one (took ~3 days to arrive), and then a few weeks later the original one arrived after all, and they didn't want those back.
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17:48:21 <zzo38> I may be playing GURPS over the internet sometime next week. I thought to make a recording by using a command like "ts | tee | nc | ts | tee"; do you expect this to be good? (The two resulting files can them be combined and interleaved to produce the proper transcript; that is why "ts" is used.)
17:49:55 <zzo38> (The otherthing I have used the "ts" command for is to time parts of programs that produce diagnostic output to indicate what it is doing.)
17:50:59 <zzo38> (Note that there are no other players; if there were, then this wouldn't work, and I would need to use IRC instead.)
17:57:41 <fizzie> If you've tested that there's no issues with programs switching to fully buffered from line buffered, that sounds pretty reasonable. You'll probably want a ts format that uses %.S if you intend to automatically interleave it by sorting.
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18:14:59 <zzo38> Yes, actually I used the format %.s< and %.s> although I think the buffering works OK with the programs I listed there; do you have any belief that it isn't?
18:16:27 <fizzie> Not a specific belief, no, it's just often an issue. Sometimes "stdbuf -oL" fixes those. But like you say, with that set of programs it might be working fine anyway.
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18:34:10 <int-e> tfw... zooming in the browser does not have any effect because the CSS uses a font size that's propotional to the viewport size
18:34:30 <zzo38> I don't like CSS viewport units; can they be disabled?
18:36:16 <int-e> I don't know. I've just realized I can use the responsive design mode to avoid having to resize the complete window
18:37:39 <zzo38> (CSS viewport units, and anything else based on the height of the viewport, should only have an effect in "paged screen" media mode, not in the default "continuous screen" media mode.)
18:40:00 <int-e> I think they usually use the viewport width for reference.
18:40:12 <int-e> I kind of get it, but breaking zoom is a very nasty side effect.
18:41:56 <zzo38> Viewport width is probably useful for some things, but not for font sizes or anything else that uses vertical distances. Furthermore, there ought to be a virtual viewport mode that the user can control.
18:43:24 <int-e> that's what the responsive design mode is
18:43:55 <int-e> of course it's touted as a web developer feature
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18:51:16 <zzo38> I also thought that the user should have the setting of which interaction mode to use (document or application), as well as which view mode to use (normal, presentation, ARIA, preview, source); the view mode also affects the interaction though.
18:54:22 <zzo38> (Application mode is rather worthless if document scripting is disabled, although it would still be allowed.)
18:55:01 <zzo38> What would you think of that?
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20:36:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70444&oldid=70345 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Languages */
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2020-03-22:

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01:19:23 <zzo38> Pokemon Card GB2 has a stupid AI; they attacked level 67 Machamp even though they got knocked out by doing so (and I needed to knock out only one more of their cards to win). They also draw too many cards and then complain of losing due to running out of cards, and many other stupid things too.
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01:35:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, it's a game console with low resources, so it's understandable that it doesn't have a very good AI
01:35:33 <b_jonas> you can try to play more modern games if you want to play against a better AI
01:35:53 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that is what it is.
01:37:19 <zzo38> (There are also problems in the text entry screen, such as they misspelled "hiragana", and some punctuations that you might want to use are not available. Also, you cannot delete your only deck, requiring you to remove each card individually instead if you want to make up a new deck.)
01:37:26 <zzo38> Have you played this game?
01:38:19 <b_jonas> no, I haven't played GBA Pokemon TCG, but I've seen videos of it
01:38:51 <zzo38> It is not GBA, it is for Color GameBoy.
01:39:00 <b_jonas> ah yes, sorry
01:39:02 <b_jonas> it's for GBC
01:40:02 <b_jonas> though GBC does already have a better cpu than GB
01:40:19 <b_jonas> I don't know if it has more memory
01:40:37 <b_jonas> and I don't know how much rom cartridge sizes got cheaper by then
01:41:40 <zzo38> GBC has a double speed mode.
02:01:56 <int-e> hmm, goomba block chaining
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03:55:32 <zzo38> (The power of level 67 Machamp causes any opponent's card that attacks it to be damaged (even if this knocks out Machamp).)
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05:45:39 <Uristqwerty> Hi! I recently read about a language called Larabee, of which google can find little discussion. Unless google's index is spotty on the matter, it appears to have been mentioned here a handful of times total over the years, and the internet is otherwise silent on the subject outside the language repo itself. Contrary to what I've read, I believe there's a way to make it Turing Complete with an arbitrarily-high probability
05:54:07 <int-e> mmm
05:54:21 <int-e> Reading https://github.com/catseye/Larabee
05:55:52 <int-e> Oh, the point is that (input) is the only nullary operation.
05:59:02 <Uristqwerty> It looks like comparison operators could reduce a pair of inputs to 0 or 1, and an arbitrary long series of such values multiplied together could make a value that is arbitrarily-likely to be zero. With that construction, memory locations 0 and 1 could be set to both contain the same value, and from then on, the constant 1 can be guaranteed using (op = (fetch (op = (input) (input)) (fetch (op = (input) (input))).
06:00:37 <int-e> Also we're usually happy to say something is TC with pretty constrained input conventions... e.g. if (input) always returns 0.
06:01:20 <Uristqwerty> From that, you could easily ensure the BPR is always positive and construct any constant you want, though looking again I don't see the example code using memory index 0.
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06:11:46 <int-e> pretty sure address 0 is okay to use
06:12:03 <int-e> negative addresses probably cause an error
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09:46:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Remisa *  New user account
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14:14:02 <kritixilithos> chat mini challenge: shortest total non primitive recursive function in binary lambda calculus
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18:00:02 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70449&oldid=70424 * Hakerh400 * (+20) Separate brainfuck derivatives into a new section
18:13:15 <b_jonas> kritixilithos: how do you define total in lambda calculus?
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18:46:32 <tromp> kritixilithos: at most 43 bits
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19:28:52 <int-e> 35 bits for a function from Church numerals to Church numerals?
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19:30:44 <int-e> (Of which 4 bits are used to duplicate the argument; this is a variation on the Ackermann function.)
19:32:02 <int-e> (spoiler http://paste.debian.net/1136020/ )
19:34:44 <int-e> b_jonas: "total" probably only makes sense if you restrict the input(s) to some encoding of natural numbers; in this context, Church numerals seem to be the most sensible choice...
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19:39:05 <b_jonas> int-e: do you need the Ackermann function? wouldn't just a tetration function like {n |> 2***n} be enough?
19:39:35 <int-e> b_jonas: no, tetration is primitive recursive.
19:39:43 <int-e> any fixed-width up-arrow is.
19:39:53 <b_jonas> is it? hmm
19:40:21 <int-e> Ackermann is basically a variable-width up-arrow, and that's what makes it non-primitive recursive.
19:40:52 <int-e> b_jonas: the basic primitive recursion building block is iterating a function you already have a given number of times.
19:41:28 <int-e> that's exactly what you need to construct multiplication from addition, exponentiation from multiplication, tetration from exponentiation, or generally to increase the width of an up-arrow by one.
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19:41:55 <b_jonas> I'm confusing something here then
19:42:28 <b_jonas> because I thought primitive recursion can do {n |> n***c} for any constant c, but not tetration
19:43:18 <int-e> is |> a \mapsto
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19:43:41 <int-e> (I read it as a triangle, which messes up my brain)
19:44:06 <b_jonas> yes, it's a |-> arrow
19:44:21 <b_jonas> makes a pair connecting the function input and output
19:44:30 <int-e> b_jonas: I really think you're confusing this with the variable-width up-arrow.
19:44:47 <int-e> some variation on n \uparrow^c n
19:44:56 <b_jonas> I'm probably just not clear about how primitive recursion works. I don't think I ever really understood it.
19:47:57 <b_jonas> I guess it can do tetration (or any other fixed width up arrow) I just never realized that it can do that
19:48:20 <b_jonas> and it was probably never important for any proof that I needed to really understand its limits
19:48:35 <int-e> If you can express it in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP it's primitive recursive... so you can have nested loops, as long as the number of iterations of each loop is known before the loop is entered.
19:48:39 <zzo38> The "BlooP" described in the "Godel, Escher, Bach" book is using primitive recursive.
19:49:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's one of the equivalent descriptions
19:49:46 <zzo38> (Although I have shown that IF is not actually needed; you can still implement any primitive recursive functions even without it.)
19:51:04 <int-e> tetrate(a,n): r = 1; for (i = 1 to n) r = a^r; return r;
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19:52:23 <int-e> (Where ^ is exponentiation, of course.)
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20:11:17 <tromp> int-e: i think your old gAckerman.lam has a bug
20:11:41 <tromp> it should have g = \n.n G succ n ?!
20:13:35 <int-e> that was 5 years ago... how am I supposed to remember :P
20:14:20 <tromp> i didn't realize you had such a file until I wrote a similar version independently:)
20:15:58 <int-e> Well it's a binary function as written, evidently
20:17:06 <int-e> is that even mine, hmm.
20:17:21 <int-e> Honestly, the style suggest it's your, and so does the file log.
20:17:35 <int-e> (style: I put spaces after the dots)
20:18:05 <tromp> Oops! you're right. it's mine!
20:18:21 <int-e> However, it still looks like a binary function to me and that would make it okay.
20:18:34 <tromp> sorry to suspect you of writing bugs:(
20:18:41 <int-e> Oh that's fine.
20:19:29 <int-e> And I've certainly thought about a generalized ackermann function before, but that was a ternary function. So the contents of the file caused some dissonance.
20:20:54 <tromp> that gAckerman is obsoleted by the new ackermann, so I can just remove it
20:21:05 <int-e> (and the file log is not always conclusive... this wouldn't have been the first time that you committed a file I wrote)
20:23:12 <tromp> pls let me know if there's any missing attribution
20:24:22 <int-e> No worries, if I felt I needed attribution I'd leave an authorship note it in the file.
20:24:46 <int-e> (I can't even name a specific example right now)
20:26:40 <int-e> Well, except BLC.hs which I just felt wasn't finished, but which does have an authorship comment.
20:28:51 <int-e> surprisingly it still compiles with ghc-8.8, even though I last updated it for ghc-8.4
20:29:28 <int-e> and it still works, too
20:29:28 <tromp> i'd forgotten there is such a thing. that does look very interesting
20:29:44 <b_jonas> int-e: did untyped lambda calculus change between those ghc versions?
20:29:49 <int-e> somebody (tm) should do this properly.
20:29:58 <int-e> b_jonas: No?
20:30:02 <b_jonas> good
20:30:09 <int-e> b_jonas: But ghc's internals are in flux.
20:30:30 <tromp> on what example Haskell file did you test it?
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20:30:33 <int-e> b_jonas: https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/BLC.hs
20:30:46 <int-e> tromp: Sample.hs. See the comments at the top.
20:30:59 <int-e> (of BLC.hs)
20:31:02 <b_jonas> ah, it's a haskell plugin
20:31:09 <b_jonas> that explains why you think it would bitrot
20:31:50 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah I realized that this information was missing from the discussion here :)
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20:33:03 <tromp> Johns-iMac:AIT tromp$ ghc -package ghc -dynamic -c -fplugin=BLC Sample.hs
20:33:03 <tromp> Bad interface file: ./BLC.hi
20:33:03 <tromp>     mismatched interface file versions (wanted "8063", got "8022")
20:33:05 <tromp> i get 
20:34:28 <int-e> tromp: did you re-compile the plugin?
20:34:45 <int-e> because that seems to say that the plugin is compiled with ghc 8.2.2
20:34:50 <int-e> but you're using 8.6.3
20:35:11 <tromp> ah, yes, that fixes it
20:38:32 <zzo38> I managed to beat the red Imakuni? while sleeping. (He ran out of cards to draw, while I still have twenty-eight cards remaining.)
20:38:53 <int-e> tromp: This is basically a proof of concept that never went beyond that stage. It does Scott encoding, it supports let and case, and it doesn't optimize anything.
20:40:33 <tromp> the blc list representation is hard to reconcile with Haskell due to it's odd notion of []
20:40:38 <int-e> tromp: But you can have Church numerals because Haskell can have Church numerals by virtue of having RankNTypes.
20:41:36 <int-e> tromp: Yeah I didn't even try. The sample is a stream for a reason.
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21:16:29 <int-e> . o O ( Yay, another security alert arrived in my mailbox, 33 hours after the event? That's the 7th or 8th for sending a single email. )
21:17:40 <zzo38> What event is that?
21:18:54 <int-e> (Sure, it's several events from Google's perspective. 1) send emal. 2) sign in from "unknown device". 3) change "less secure apps" setting. Now they're sending alerts to both the google email and the linked email account (which is my primary email account so I really don't care all that much about the security of the google one))
21:19:01 <int-e> emal -> email
21:19:17 <int-e> 3) is "critical" for some reason.
21:20:03 <int-e> Oh and one of the alert said the blocked a "login from a non-Google app" as if that's a bad thing.
21:20:17 <int-e> (I've deleted them all though.)
21:21:16 <int-e> I guess the next time it happens I should archive them for later amusement.
21:23:50 <int-e> The 33 hours irritate me though. And the delay was incurred inside of Google according to the Received headers.
21:24:06 <int-e> Oh well.
21:25:43 <int-e> The annoying bit is really that this *will* happen again, because I rarely send emails from the google account and that's the only occasion where I authenticate with them at all.
21:26:08 <int-e> (received email just gets forwarded to my primary account)
21:27:00 <int-e> So Google *will* decide that I don't need that "less secure apps" setting because I'm not using it. And then when I send another email I'll jump through all the hoops again.
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23:38:59 <int-e> tromp: Ah I found the generalized ackermann functions I toyed with... but not where they came from. They looked like this: http://paste.debian.net/1136059/
23:39:32 <int-e> Pretty weird stuff.
23:42:06 <int-e> I forgot what the point of this was. Probably something like that ack3 cannot be bounded in terms of ack2 + primitive recursion, and so on.
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2020-03-23:

00:26:07 <esowiki> [[Insanity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70450&oldid=70390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-43) 
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01:53:52 <arseniiv> I indulged myself in existensional types with phantom lifted-from-data arguments (just a single argument, though)
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02:06:55 <int-e> 3am, perfect time for a solitary walk
02:22:46 <zzo38> There are two cards in Pokemon Card GB2 that can only be achieved by the "Card Pop" function, which requires IR communication. How can I add those cards without IR communication?
02:25:27 <longname> Are you on an emulator?
02:26:05 <zzo38> Yes; specifically, Mednafen.
02:26:23 <zzo38> (which doesn't emulate IR communication, as far as I know)
02:27:22 <zzo38> Can I add it by altering the .nc0 or .sav file? (I can also make a backup, in case it doesn't work.)
02:27:41 <longname> Play the same rom/save file on an emulator that does
02:28:24 <longname> I think the TAS speedrunning forum has a list of extensive emulators for the GB(A/C)
02:31:16 <longname> apparently bizhawk has debugging and memory manipulation, you could probably use that, though I wouldn't know how
02:33:30 <longname> I know I've seen videos of people plugging in random data to an emulated GB's data cable, so it's probably possible
02:34:32 <zzo38> Also do you know which emulator emulates the printer? I also have one game which requires a printer to work, so it won't work with Mednafen (which, as far as I know, does not emulate the printer).
02:37:01 <longname> https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Game_Boy/Game_Boy_Color_emulators
02:37:41 <longname> SameBoy, VBA, GBE+, and mGBA apparently all handle it.
02:52:36 <zzo38> I found out another (a bit messy) way, involving cheating at booster packs.
02:54:00 <zzo38> The cheating function is implemented for Game Boy, although the debugging function isn't (although the debugging function does work for NES/Famicom).
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03:06:44 <zzo38> I don't know why the cheat menu in Mednafen asks you if you want big endian; it should know that Game Boy is small endian and automatically know to use small endian, I should expect.
04:09:13 <int-e> @metar lowi
04:09:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 230350Z AUTO 08008KT 9999 SCT042 BKN044 M02/M08 Q1029
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05:40:35 <esowiki> [[Javagony]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70451&oldid=50409 * YamTokTpaFa * (+29) 
05:40:52 <esowiki> [[Javagony]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70452&oldid=70451 * YamTokTpaFa * (-1) 
06:05:42 <b_jonas> wow, nice snow
06:06:04 <int-e> snow?
06:06:34 <int-e> there's some snow visible from here but only because the city is surrounded by mountains
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06:22:04 <b_jonas> int-e: snow only in the air. it won't stick.
06:22:25 <b_jonas> but the forecast was right, this night was actually pretty cold 
06:22:43 <int-e> ah
07:07:41 <esowiki> [[Naz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70453&oldid=69118 * Sporeball * (+42) add n command to the list of instructions
08:06:39 <esowiki> [[Insanity]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70454&oldid=70450 * A * (+43) The idea is yours though.
08:34:22 <Hooloovo0> we got sticky snow
08:35:39 <Hooloovo0> basically all gone now, though
08:36:14 <Hooloovo0> made garden/car work annoying enough
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09:27:02 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70455&oldid=65856 * YamTokTpaFa * (+29) 
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11:07:06 <myname> are there multiplayer df likes?
11:24:18 <Taneb> df = dwarf fortress?
11:31:52 <myname> yeah
11:36:51 <Taneb> I don't know of any
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12:07:33 <mroman> How's everybody doing in these dark times?
12:16:24 <Taneb> Pretty good, actually
12:16:37 <Taneb> Cleaned out my fridge and started playing the new Animal Crossing, in two separate incidents
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12:31:15 <mroman> My govnt has another press conference in 30min.
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14:17:55 <mroman> so one question
14:18:36 <mroman> There are N persons and N items to be given to those N persons. Each person can create an ordered list of M preferences which item they want most.
14:19:03 <mroman> Then you want to give those N items to those N items such that you can make people the most satisfied.
14:19:31 <mroman> I don't think there's a clever algorithm for that and it sounds like it's equivalent to the knappsack problem
14:21:57 <mroman> (except trying out all combinations, giving M points if somebody gets their #1 preference, M-1 points if they get their #2 preference, then try all permutations and pick the one with most points
14:22:06 <mroman> which clearly isn't feasible because that's O(n!))
14:26:03 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assignment_problem ?
14:27:57 <Taneb> Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank-maximal_allocation ?
14:37:42 <mroman> aren't those equivalent?
14:38:11 <Taneb> I think the latter is an example of the former
14:38:29 <mroman> you give an item somebody doesn't want a cost of 6, then the 5th preference 5, 4th preference 4
14:38:41 <mroman> then you use hungarian to minimize the cost?
14:44:03 <mroman> does hungarian always find an optimal solution?
14:44:14 <mroman> (kinda has to, otherwise it wouldn't really be a solution to the problem)
14:44:40 <mroman> but this online solver keeps saying "solution is not optimal"
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17:07:52 <Sgeo> `olist 1196
17:07:54 <HackEso> olist 1196: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:14:06 <b_jonas> thx HackEso
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17:21:51 <b_jonas> also apparently there's a new filler comic image that appears if you try to load the html for the strip one after the latest released one. I'll have to be careful with that, it might mess up my oots downloader script.
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17:51:28 <mroman> interestingly the cost for electricity to cook kidney beans alone is bigger than just buying canned kidney beans
17:51:32 <mroman> that's... unexpected.
17:51:42 <mroman> (kidney beans take about 90minutes to cook plus 8h of soaking)
17:59:15 <mroman> let alone that precooked beans are cheaper than dried raw beans.
17:59:46 <mroman> so cooking your own beans is about 250% the price of buying precooked in cans
18:03:57 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70456&oldid=70431 * Rerednaw * (-12) /* Ctrl+V version */
18:10:04 <b_jonas> how many buttons and sticks and other thingies will game controllers have in ten years? the way they keep growing buttons, they'll be like a christmas tree eventually. 
18:23:50 <arseniiv> I suggest a new esoteric language statement: `you are … are you`
18:27:18 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> the way they keep growing buttons, they'll be like a christmas tree eventually. => hm my christmas trees have no buttons at all, as for sticks it’d mean stripping one of all needles, which is strange to do to an artifical tree
18:28:01 <arseniiv> stripping one of all needles which is needless*
18:33:07 <b_jonas> yeah, you have to keep at least some pins in the connector that plugs into the gaming console
18:42:55 <zzo38> If you need so many buttons then you should just use a full keyboard, I think. Otherwise, make one without so many buttons and so on.
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19:10:18 <esowiki> [[User:Rerednaw]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70457&oldid=69547 * Rerednaw * (+1100) Adding the "No problem!" problem
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20:34:52 <int-e> morning oerjan 
20:36:34 <oerjan> evening int-e 
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20:56:55 <int-e> Well, I'm totally out of sync.
21:01:01 <arseniiv> oh
21:02:42 <esowiki> [[Emblia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70458 * Keymaker * (+3112) New language.
21:03:11 <oerjan> i'm partially out of sync, but not quite enough to call this morning.
21:05:26 <esowiki> [[User:Keymaker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70459&oldid=58596 * Keymaker * (+69) Updated language list.
21:05:35 <zzo38> The Pokemon cards doesn't have such a card as Opponent Potion, Opponent Bill, Opponent Defender, Opponent Full Heal, etc, even though sometimes is card I want to use
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21:13:01 <int-e> `? procastination
21:13:03 <HackEso> procastination? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:13:25 <int-e> `? procrastination
21:13:26 <HackEso> The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this final funny cat clip on youtube.
21:13:38 <int-e> `? quarantination
21:13:40 <HackEso> quarantination? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:13:59 <b_jonas> `? procrasti
21:14:00 <HackEso> The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it.
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21:15:37 <int-e> This may be the most successful int-ention of all times.
21:16:25 <oerjan> i'm not sure quarantination is a word
21:16:48 <int-e> I meant the procrastination
21:17:03 <int-e> the quarantination is still evolving
21:18:35 <int-e> It may not be a word, but it really should be. :P
21:23:58 <oerjan> english seems to just use "quarantining".
21:25:16 <oerjan> in norwegian, i don't think the word has been verbed at all.
21:25:35 <fizzie> It's called quarantination when you put a whole nation into quarantine hth
21:25:53 <oerjan> OKAY
21:27:49 <int-e> oerjan: I was certain it wasn't a word :P
21:28:16 <int-e> But yes, fizzie is echoing my thoughts.
21:28:57 <int-e> And obviously a quarantination has a lot of time for procrastination.
21:29:20 <int-e> So it might become one.
21:35:24 <oerjan> . o O ( quarantination is a way to procrastinate getting sick )
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21:59:58 <oerjan> <int-e> Or I could use the .. trick <-- you could also have used `whoops, which is so easy to remember hth
22:00:09 <oerjan> `cbt whoops
22:00:14 <HackEso> OLD="$HACKENV/wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
22:04:36 <int-e> I've never seen this.
22:07:12 <int-e> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log?rev=whoops may explain why
22:08:31 <int-e> compare: https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log?rev=%7B%2Cs%7D
22:13:11 <oerjan> i thought i'd used it more than that.
22:14:22 <oerjan> i suppose i forgot about it. and don't do that error very often.
22:14:35 <int-e> that probably includes a number of times where you *should* have used it :)
22:15:15 <int-e> and obviously the log doesn't include cases where it didn't work
22:16:09 <oerjan> `t hurl bin/whoops
22:16:11 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/whoops
22:16:30 <int-e> why t?
22:16:46 <int-e> (e-t-mology question)
22:17:34 <oerjan> top
22:18:43 <int-e> . o O ( how about "he" for "hackenv"... we could have "he hurl ..." then )
22:19:28 <int-e> though that's bad grammar
22:20:33 <oerjan> i wanted it to be just one letter, otherwise it wouldn't save anything...
22:29:05 <int-e> . o O ( `mkx ../bin/^//t "` $*" )
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22:29:51 <int-e> a top hat?
22:30:15 <int-e> `relcome BadHotLady
22:30:19 <HackEso> ​BadHotLady: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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2020-03-24:

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01:58:16 <zzo38> I wrote a document with a format for rule options for mahjong. One thing it includes is the format of pattern strings, which can be used for irregular hands (as well as for scoring elements in regular hands, too), for example "<nt13>=" and "<n:.{7}>!" denote common kind of irregular hands.
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03:39:28 <zzo38> (Can you guess how these notations are working from these examples? Probably not much, but maybe a little bit; I don't know.)
04:35:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Fac *  New user account
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04:55:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70460&oldid=70228 * Fac * (+136) 
04:59:21 <int-e> Meh. I thought I was getting closer to making lambdabot work with ghc-8.8... and now one dependency builds with ghc-8.8.1 but broke its API and knocked over some more dominoes.
05:03:05 <zzo38> What API broke?
05:22:22 <int-e> nothing interesting
05:22:29 <int-e> I'm just chasing dependencies.
05:23:20 <zzo38> OK
05:23:25 <int-e> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dependent-sum-0.6.2.2 exports a different Data.GADT.Compare than the previous version
05:27:13 <zzo38> I thought they were not supposed to make incompatible unless the major version number is changed?
05:30:21 <int-e> zzo38: Yes. But accidents happen.
05:30:38 <zzo38> OK
05:31:00 <int-e> I'm partly responsible for this one, could've paid more attention in a pull request and avoided this.
05:39:25 <int-e> Though in that case I'd still be chasing the same dependencies, because dependent-sum-0.6.2.0 doesn't support ghc-8.8.1
06:36:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70461 * Fac * (+1408) Created page with "==Interpreter Written in Rust== <pre>     let args: Vec<String> = std::env::args().collect();     let mut buffer: String = String::new();      match OpenOptions::new().read(tr..."
06:40:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70462&oldid=70461 * Fac * (-48) 
06:48:37 <zzo38> I recently wrote a program in Haskell to calculate probabilities of achieving a total or less on a set of abnormal dice. Haskell is certainly different from other programming languages. I do not use Haskell a lot, but I find that for some things (such as this), it works very well, because the different way it works is suitable for this use.
06:49:09 <zzo38> I think that different programming languages are good for different purposes; other people have other opinions (as well as variants of what I said). What do you think, though?
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10:42:20 <esowiki> [[ZFC++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70463&oldid=70240 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* I/O format */
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11:13:27 <wib_jonas> `ftoc 75
11:13:29 <HackEso> 75.00°F = 23.89°C
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13:07:36 <wib_jonas> How do I configure firefox such that when I type into the urlbar, it does not open a popup with list of suggestions by default, but does still open it if I press down? 
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13:21:36 <mroman> ok I have another question. Suppose I have N people that regularily meet in a room with space for M persons. Now I want to know how many meetings must I have such that every person has at least seen every other person once.
13:22:15 <wib_jonas> mroman: do they plan out the meetings to make this fast, or do M of them just meet randomly each turn?
13:22:26 <mroman> basically I have a set of N and pick subsets of M such that every member has been in a subset with every other member and I kinda want to know how many subsets I must pick.
13:22:32 <mroman> I guess that's the more mathematical description of the problem.
13:22:42 <wib_jonas> so you want to pick the meetings
13:24:06 <mroman> well... you have N persons and you divide them into groups of M persons and each of those persons shake hands. Then you select another group of M persons and so on. How many groups do I need to pick such that everybody has shaken hands with everybody.
13:24:20 <mroman> there's a whole bunch of similar problems that are fundamentally all the same underlying problem.
13:27:04 <mroman> but the actual RL problem I'm having is this: I have N persons and I have K rooms each allowing for N/K persons. Each day you split the people up. Obviously you can't be in two rooms on the same day. The question is how many days does it take such that everybody has been with everybody else. 
13:27:08 <mroman> and I have no clue on how to do this :(
13:27:50 <mroman> the other question is how do I plan those subsets rather than just knowing how many days it takes.
13:28:19 <mroman> (currently we have two rooms)
13:28:41 <mroman> so like 10 people, 2 rooms meaning there will be two groups of 5 each day.
13:29:08 <mroman> also I guess it'll be unavoidable that somebody sees somebody multiple times.
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13:32:31 <kritixilithos> int-e: re your blc non-primitive recursive function, i suppose `\f\x blah` means `\f.(\x.blah)`?
13:38:36 <mroman> wib_jonas: http://codepad.org/VpWxojiJ
13:38:47 <mroman> ^- kinda like this (this is with 8 persons and 2 rooms of 4 persons each)
13:39:12 <mroman> so this arrangement would take 5 days. I have no idea if you can do it in less than 5 days. 
13:39:22 <int-e> kritixilithos: Yes. (Though I'd expect myself to write \f\x. blah)
13:39:56 <kritixilithos> er yes you had the dot
13:40:25 <int-e> kritixilithos: But indeed this particular flavor of lambda calculus syntax makes the . optional, instead of allowing multiple variables after \
13:41:50 <int-e> kritixilithos: (context is https://github.com/tromp/AIT/ which has an implementation of BLC and a tool to convert lambda calculus (plus let) into BLC)
13:42:20 <wib_jonas> mroman: that's a slightly different question. for 10 people meeting in rooms of capacity 5 you need 4 days, but I don't know the answer in general for any number of peope and capacity of the rooms.
13:43:18 <wib_jonas> mroman: for 8 people with rooms of capacity 4, 3 days should be enough
13:45:49 <mroman> yeah 
13:46:45 <mroman> I'm not so sure about that
13:47:56 <wib_jonas> why?
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13:50:11 <int-e> Oh a combinatorial design problem...
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13:51:46 <mroman> see https://ibb.co/rpznWcp
13:52:15 <mroman> this is with three colors and clearly 1 hasn't been with 7 and 8.
13:52:36 <mroman> and 2 hasn't been with 8 for example
13:53:02 <mroman> and 5 hasn't been with 3
13:53:24 <mroman> etc. etc. I don't believe this can be done with 3 colors.
13:53:44 <mroman> (1 color = 1 day)
13:54:03 <int-e> Yeah I don't believe in 3 days either. 4 is possible.
13:54:28 <wib_jonas> maybe you're right
13:54:53 <int-e> wait
13:55:03 <int-e> I'm stupid.
13:56:16 <int-e> 3 works after all. 1234|5678, 1256|3478, 1278|3456
13:56:42 <int-e> (it even works if you have 4 couples that stick together)
13:59:01 <int-e> And that (4 couples that always stick together) corresponds to dividing K_4 into 3 perfect matchings, which is something I've done before.
14:00:01 <mroman> indeed
14:00:58 <mroman> now the question is whether it always requires 3 :)
14:01:02 <mroman> or whether it scales with more people
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14:04:22 <int-e> So the same construction works if you have 4n people and rooms of capacity 2n.
14:08:19 <mroman> do you have some strategy to pick the groups? 
14:09:21 <int-e> It reduces to the case of 4 people; rather than couples, pick groups of size n that stick together.
14:09:22 <mroman> (as in something that helps towards an algorithm :D)
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14:41:40 <int-e> For 4n+2 people and room size 2n+1 you need 4 days. Fun.
14:51:33 <int-e> Start with 2n people; label them by the rooms (A or B, of capacity n) they stayed in. After two days, there are 4 labels, AA, AB, BA, BB; simple counting shows that the same number of poeple have labels AA and BB; the same is true for labels AB and BA. So you can make n disjoint pairs of people who have not been together in a room yet (pairing AA with BB, and AB with BA). If n is odd, then one...
14:51:39 <int-e> ...pair is split on the 3rd day, which means a 4th day is required.
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15:01:26 <int-e> And if there are 2 people, they'll never meet at all.
15:01:42 <int-e> I think that about covers it all.
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18:13:03 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70464&oldid=70430 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) /* String indexing */
18:18:16 <mroman> so our govnt has expressed desire to use tracking apps to track citizens
18:18:26 <mroman> I mean... on one hand that's probably a great idea for this situation
18:18:32 <mroman> on the other hand... erm...
18:19:15 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70465&oldid=70464 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+96) /* String indexing */
18:19:17 <mroman> very slippery slope
18:23:59 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70466&oldid=70465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+104) /* Keywords */
18:25:55 <mroman> also one roll of toiletpaper for a single person usually easily lasts one week.
18:26:22 <mroman> so a 12pack lasts you like 3 months. If one buys 3-4 packs then you have toilet paper for a year.
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18:29:18 <mroman> on the other one box of pasta 400g is at most 1600kcal (as 1g of carb is 4kcal and this assumes pasta is 100% carb which it isn't) which will last you exactly one day at most.
18:30:55 <kritixilithos> there was a nice discussion on hn recently about bidets https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22618253
18:34:48 <kmc> yeah, i wonder how many "emergency powers" will be granted and never revoked
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18:41:20 <mroman> well... full confinement is a tricky thing. I mean it's probably less of a tricky thing if you have a house or an apparment with a balcony and things..
18:41:24 <mroman> but still..
18:41:54 <mroman> currently we have a prohibition on gatherings of more than 5 people
18:42:25 <mroman> I guess banning gatherings entirely is on the table but even that isn't as harsh as full confinement.
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18:43:33 <mroman> but I assume currently the government is thinking that it isn't stoppable anymore and a lot of people will get it so there's no point in full confinement
18:43:38 <mroman> and they want to keep the economy running
18:44:21 <mroman> I don't see how tracking would be a reasonable measure for this strategy.
18:44:39 <mroman> Currently you still have to go to work potentially using public transport.
18:45:16 <mroman> so essentially one thing you could do is to close businesses for 14 days once a worker is ill
18:45:22 <mroman> you don't need tracking for that.
18:45:39 <mroman> and if you have tracking you'd have to do this as well
18:45:57 <mroman> (because obviously you had contact with your coworkers)
18:47:09 <mroman> kmc: depends. I guess legally speaking they are automatically revoked once the government ends the "emergency state"
18:47:36 <mroman> I'm guessing that laws based on emergency powers are only valid during the emergency state.
18:48:25 <mroman> so the legislative branch of the government would have to uphold those laws.
18:48:36 <mroman> (the ones made by the executive branch based on emergency powers)
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18:49:04 <mroman> but in essence in my country this means that the people have to uphold them
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18:49:24 <mroman> parliament can't really make laws without our approval.
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18:51:09 <mroman> although technically it works this way: parliament makes a new law... you can call for a vote but I think until the vote is done the law is actually in place
18:52:04 <kmc> governments tend to keep 'emergency states' going as long as they can
18:53:06 <kmc> it will be decades until we reach the point where there are no COVID-19 cases anywhere on Earth, if it ever happens (doubtful)
18:53:21 <kmc> so they can claim that the emergency is ongoing basically as long as they like
18:53:28 <kmc> and that it could flare back into pandemic status at any point
18:53:31 <kmc> which is kind of true
18:53:47 <mroman> maybe but I mean... law and politics are always... "soft". It's never "formal".
18:54:01 <mroman> I mean.. the government can use emergency powers in emergencies
18:54:10 <mroman> but I don't think it is defined what exactly is an emergency
18:54:31 <mroman> except you know like "natural disaster, public health crisis" but it doesn't define at what point something is a natural disaster worth of an emergency
18:55:11 <mroman> that's the fascinating thing. Politics requires cooperation from the people. The government can say whatever they want as long as the people don't accept it...
18:55:44 <kmc> that's complicated
18:55:50 <mroman> see here. The top governments have issued emergency laws which local goverments decided to overwrite (which is something that is legally not possible)
18:56:03 <mroman> the government issued a declaration that this is not legal but the local goverment said "meh"
18:56:05 <kmc> you can get away with things the majority don't like if you keep it secret, or if you misinform them
18:56:07 <mroman> I mean... what you gonna do.
18:56:15 <kmc> or if push comes to shove and the military and police are on board
18:56:18 <mroman> march in with the army?
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18:56:37 <mroman> but you can only do that if the people think this is worth marching into that one little state
18:57:40 <mroman> but yeah I hope it doesn't come to tracking.
18:58:43 <mroman> there's always some tension between parts of the country that speak different languages anyway.
18:59:39 <mroman> one part is too small to ever have a representative in government (or maybe they do now as a first I haven't really kept up with this)
19:00:17 <mroman> but generally you don't care about what happens in parts that don't speak your language
19:00:22 <mroman> language is a powerful barrier.
19:01:56 <mroman> but yeh this is going to be fun because for organizations on national level those local laws are illegal thus you wouldn't be able to apply for some unemployed insurances
19:02:19 <mroman> because the closing of your business wasn't legal on a national level even though it was mandatory due to local laws.
19:02:38 <mroman> That's also interesting. If you have a local law X and a national law Y that conflict each other... which one do you have to follow?
19:03:16 <mroman> courts are usually local so if you break a local law you'll be put in front of the local court I guess which will find you guilty
19:03:37 <mroman> then you'd have to take it further to the national court which would then presumably overrule that guilty sentence.
19:04:26 <mroman> so I guess you don't have to follow it but you will be convicted by the 1st instance and then you have to appeal to 2nd instance and you're good. Messy but works.
19:04:27 <zzo38> I think that most people should not go to work during this time (except doctors).
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19:05:05 <mroman> zzo38: yeah but this is only feasible if you can realistically erradicate the virus within a reasonable time frame?
19:05:06 <zzo38> (O, and also the fire fighting, too, if it becomes necessary.)
19:05:31 <mroman> otherwise you're just locking people up until every last case is gone which may take years?
19:06:15 <mroman> also this approach doesn't work long term. You need production for medical supplies and foods.
19:06:28 <mroman> And you need production for packaging for foods
19:06:33 <mroman> and you need transport of foods
19:06:44 <mroman> so you also need production and maintenance of for transport of food
19:06:54 <mroman> and medical supplies too
19:07:21 <mroman> it's probably really tricky to decide what you're going to shut down and what not
19:07:52 <mroman> you can shut down like can producers for now and use the cans they have in stock
19:07:55 <mroman> but how long will that last?
19:08:13 <mroman> you'd have to be aware of the entire supply chain 
19:08:29 <mroman> it's much easier to just shut down clearly non-essential stuff
19:08:38 <zzo38> Some people can make their own food and growing stuff in their own garden too, I suppose.
19:08:41 <mroman> like hair stylist, make-up artists
19:08:55 <mroman> or restaurants
19:09:01 <mroman> stuff like that.
19:09:16 <mroman> I mean currently you can only sell food in my country
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19:09:29 <mroman> at least in stores
19:09:33 <mroman> you can buy everything online 
19:10:13 <mroman> I suppose one feasible approach is to close food stores as well and have delivery people in protective gear that deliver food to people's home
19:10:16 <zzo38> People should be advised to stay home and the law should ensure that if their employer requires them to work then the employer will be arrested (once you get the opportunity to arrest them).
19:10:20 <mroman> that's one way to reduce a lot of contacts.
19:11:52 <mroman> I'd agree that you certainly can close most businesses for a time limited period.
19:13:18 <mroman> I just hope that we will learn from this crisis and that we as a society improve and move away from "consumer society"
19:14:31 <mroman> but sadly I doubt it.
19:20:15 <kmc> what does that mean exactly
19:20:20 <kmc> people have enjoyed consuming things since the dawn of time
19:30:59 <mroman> yeah it's a term translated from "Konsumgesellschaft"
19:31:35 <mroman> it means being overly materialistic, put values into objects, desire luxury things, express status through objects, always wanting new things even though there's no functional need
19:31:48 <mroman> buying things that aren't necessary only to throw them away soon without having had a real need for them
19:32:11 <mroman> examples would be buying things that are currently hyped because they are hyped but you actually don't need them
19:32:59 <mroman> the opposite I guess would be minimalism. You reduce your lifestyle to what is necessary to you and buy things only on a strict need basis, you don't express your status through expensive objects
19:33:14 <mroman> and you try to consume as little as possible, you value nature and people
19:33:18 <mroman> that's what's generally understood.
19:37:51 <zzo38> Yes, you should reduce "consumer society"
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19:54:58 <kmc> but minimalism has become its own form of middle class status signalling
19:55:04 <kmc> https://vruba.tumblr.com/post/45256059128/wealth-risk-and-stuff
19:55:35 <mroman> that is true
20:00:22 <kmc> "value nature and people" can mean "spend tons of money on unnecessary travel" and your instagram photos from exotic places become as much an expensive status good as a luxury car or whatever
20:00:43 <kmc> and preaching the virtues of minimalism can tread close to austerity politics
20:00:57 <mroman> well granted... going backpacking is something you can only do if you're rich
20:00:57 <kmc> like every so often conservatives in the USA get outraged that you can buy steak and lobster on food stamps
20:01:03 <kmc> cause the poor should eat only gruel and plain toast
20:01:12 <kmc> never mind that it's a fixed allocation per month regardless
20:01:36 <kmc> mroman: right, rich in the sense of money or rich in the sense of few obligations and a safety net
20:01:42 <kmc> either way
20:01:52 <kmc> that's the difference between backpackers and homeless people
20:02:11 <kmc> I've been technically homeless for months, but I knew that I had friends to stay with and a high paying job awaiting me after x months so it's not really the same
20:03:07 <kmc> anyway i don't disagree with you exactly
20:03:22 <kmc> it's just a kind of complicated thing
20:03:36 <mroman> yeh I've been "homeless" for a while too but not "homeless" as in "living on the streets"
20:04:12 <mroman> no I mean you certainly can have minimalism when you're poor but yeah you'll have to bulk buy food for sure
20:04:54 <mroman> also usually minimalist might have a safety net in the sense of "I can throw this away... should I ever need this in a year or two I can just re-buy it"
20:05:02 <kmc> right
20:05:04 <mroman> which you can't do when poor
20:05:17 <mroman> like "I only want 1 pair of sneakers so I'll give these away"
20:05:24 <kmc> yeah
20:05:31 <mroman> your sneakers break and you don't have a spare pair so you have to buy a new one as well
20:05:35 <mroman> you don't do that when poor
20:05:52 <kmc> yeah, the stereotype of poor people having a bunch of junked cars and washing machines on their lawn
20:05:56 <kmc> it's easy to look down on it as trashy
20:06:14 <kmc> but maybe they can't afford to throw them out because they might need them for parts
20:06:21 <kmc> or are slowly acquiring the parts to get them working again
20:06:24 <zzo38> Or, can you make your own shoes and stuff?
20:06:29 <kmc> and can't just toss the whole thing and buy a brand new shiny samsung washing machine
20:06:44 <mroman> I'm sitting here not having to wash my own clothes
20:06:47 <mroman> so much for being rich.
20:07:00 <mroman> but that's because I live in a hotel.
20:07:11 <mroman> I don't even have a washing machine
20:07:23 <zzo38> Other thing to do is to wash the clothes less often if they aren't so dirty.
20:07:49 <kmc> personally I'm far from minimalist, I own a lot of stuff, much of it is tools and supplies for my various activities (electronics, ham radio, mushroom growing) and ditto for my wife and her hobbies
20:07:58 <kmc> i think that's a good case for owning stuff
20:08:08 <kmc> i still have too much and it's hard to find what i need when i need it, which is a problem
20:08:23 <mroman> I own a lot of stuff. I used to have rented three places equipped with stuff...
20:08:36 <mroman> well.. "owned"
20:09:14 <mroman> good think my income could support my shenanigans due to poor mental health...
20:09:18 <mroman> *thing
20:10:52 <mroman> yeah also there are videos of people having like 3-4 clothes
20:10:55 <mroman> I mean.. great
20:11:01 <mroman> You wouldn't make it in my country
20:11:09 <mroman> and lucky you you have an office job
20:12:05 <mroman> If you live in a place where you don't need winter/summer clothes then fuck yeah I could go by with two pair of jeans, two t-shirts and stuff.
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20:27:21 <zzo38> Love of money is the root of all evil.
20:34:44 <mroman> well.. practically speaking there are things that force you to spend more money than necessary
20:34:56 <mroman> you could buy some land for 10k build a house for 20k and you'd be set at 30k
20:35:05 <mroman> which is about 3 years worth of rent otherwise
20:35:19 <mroman> like 2years if you don't have a cheap appartment
20:35:45 <mroman> the reason why you can't do that is because a.) you'd be stationary then b.) very few people sell <200m^2 pieces of land
20:36:22 <mroman> people buying land buy large pieces so sellers have no incentive to actually divide their land into smaller parcels to sell
20:37:05 <mroman> so that's one thing that forces you to pay more money than necessary. If you think about it 1.2k per month for an appartment is way too much
20:37:15 <mroman> I wonder why rents are so expensive.
20:37:29 <mroman> because they rent these since the 1965
20:38:03 <mroman> so that appartment would have had to cost about 800k
20:44:58 <rain1> hi
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22:05:39 <zzo38> One feature of Pokemon Card GB2 that I don't like is that if you play Energy Search and you have any energy cards in your draw pile you are required to take one. (I don't know what would be the proper rule for this, but if it is like Magic: the Gathering, you would not be required to take one, although you would still be required in the case of Computer Search.)
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22:19:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: M:tG's is the good rule. the rationale is that it would be inconvenient to prove to the opponent that you have no card matching the criteria in your deck, since for that, the opponent or a judge would have to look at every card in your deck (at least the first time that happens)
22:20:18 <zzo38> Yes, I agree. I don't know if Pokemon card is using a different rule, though.
22:23:37 <zzo38> Also, level 32 Marowak's "Wail" attack can't be used if both benches are full (even though, if only one bench is full, both player's cards are still shuffled anyways).
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06:20:14 <zzo38> Apparently some old mahjong sets include eight "kings", of east, south, west, north, heaven, earth, man, and peace. Do you have any guess what their meaning is?
06:21:08 <int-e> I hope they got eaten by the dragons.
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10:01:25 <rain1> i wish elliot was around tstill thaey were cool to talk to
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14:09:58 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70467&oldid=70466 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* String indexing */
14:10:28 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70468&oldid=70467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* String indexing */
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14:55:32 <kspalaiologos> https://pastebin.com/raw/5vBxr8AS
14:55:34 <kspalaiologos> majestatic, ain't it?
15:01:47 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70469&oldid=70468 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+221) /* Output all characters of variable t (string) separately */
15:06:51 <arseniiv> kspalaiologos: what does this lovely pentagram do?
15:07:05 <kspalaiologos> urldecode
15:07:12 <arseniiv> oh!
15:08:08 <kspalaiologos> I think one could shape programs in Malbolge into such
15:08:28 <arseniiv> I suspected urldecode (or at least urlencode) should be connected with something demonic but now I know
15:15:06 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70470&oldid=70469 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+144) /* Operators */
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17:49:19 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70471&oldid=70470 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) /* Datatypes */
17:49:33 <esowiki> [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70472&oldid=70471 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Datatypes */
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21:39:18 <arseniiv> someone tried programming in F* ?
22:24:57 <imode> F*?
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22:30:47 <int-e> Relevant enough for Wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F*_(programming_language)
22:48:23 <spruit11> Why wouldn't it be?
22:54:05 <imode> huh.
22:54:56 <imode> all we need now is F$, F%, F^, F&, F@, F!, F`, F~, F-, F_, F+, F=..
23:01:06 <int-e> spruit11: Wikipedia has notability criteria. So there's always room for doubt.
23:47:17 <esowiki> [[LogicF---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70473&oldid=69561 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) 
23:50:02 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70474&oldid=70285 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) I was linking to C
23:50:38 <esowiki> [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70475&oldid=70474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Syntax */

2020-03-26:

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00:21:47 <arseniiv> yeah
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00:31:01 <zzo38> This is so far the TeXnicard template code I use for Magic: the Gathering:  http://sprunge.us/8pXjAy  (It is not yet completed. Also, the template contains other files too. However, the card layout and graphics would be a different template, and you would use both templates together to render the cards. I can also later add import and export templates too.)
00:35:49 <zzo38> Although I think I did not consider how to figure out the color identity of meld cards properly.
00:41:04 <zzo38> What is the proper rules for determining color identity of meld cards?
00:56:54 <zzo38> I thought to make up a card for Pokemon card game:  You can rearrange the damage on your own cards however you want and may move any amount of damage from opponent's cards onto your own cards (even if that would cause some of your cards to be knocked out).
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01:57:55 <oerjan> <kmc> yeah, i wonder how many "emergency powers" will be granted and never revoked <-- the norwegian parliament passed such a law last week, but it was severely curtailed compared to the government's proposal - the governement can make emergency decrees that work as laws, but only for one month, and only if parliament _cannot_ meet to pass a law normally.
01:58:14 <oerjan> *-e
01:58:30 <oerjan> (also it has to be COVID-19 related)
01:58:50 <oerjan> and the courts can squash them if inappropriate.
01:59:16 <oerjan> this despite no one actually expecting the government to have dictatorial ambitions.
02:00:38 <oerjan> (the goverment's proposal also had safeguards, but parliament wanted more)
02:00:41 <oerjan> *+n
02:09:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: sadly the parliament cannot meet is a condition that's too trivial to satisfy when there are rules for banning gatherings
02:12:01 <oerjan> assuming the rules apply to parliament.
02:12:20 <b_jonas> gatherings are already banned in Hungary in a way that the parliament doesn't fall into the few exceptions that they allowed
02:12:40 <oerjan> so they aren't meeting?
02:12:49 <b_jonas> they are meeting, they don't care about their own rules
02:12:57 <b_jonas> the parliament never does
02:15:48 <oerjan> i suspect mroman's comment applies <mroman> maybe but I mean... law and politics are always... "soft". It's never "formal".
02:17:29 <oerjan> or put differently, it's not applied to that case because no one thinks it applies, except logic-obsessed nerds.
02:19:05 <oerjan> although this does have the danger that it can take only a few shifts in viewpoint (overton window?) before people start thinking it _does_ apply.
02:19:44 <oerjan> and hungary has a reputation of going in that direction.
02:42:55 <zzo38> I just installed Turbo Pascal. It is true that CTRL-F9 runs a program, but you can also push ALT-R R to run a program. It also uses CTRL-F1 for the help of the word at the cursor, but that key combination can be customized in Turbo Pascal, so I changed it to SHIFT-F1.
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05:12:58 <zzo38> One thing I want to add into TeXnicard is to be able to distribute change sets of card databases as netnews articles, in a way which is clearly readable and also can be imported by TeXnicard to merge changes into the card database, including warnings of incompatible changes. What way do you think is good to do this?
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06:36:36 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 3]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70476&oldid=66284 * Zzo38 * (+18) 
06:39:12 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 3]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70477&oldid=70476 * Zzo38 * (+158) Describe outputs working.
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09:05:29 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS Deleter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70478 * LyricLy * (+944) Created page with "'''SdofgOS Deleter''' is an esoteric programming language inspired by nothing created by [[User:LyricLy]] in 2020.  ==Concepts==  SdofgOS Deleter has only one concept: deletin..."
09:06:09 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS Deleter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70479&oldid=70478 * LyricLy * (+47) 
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12:15:13 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS Deleter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70480&oldid=70479 * A * (+4) 
12:16:25 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS Deleter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70481&oldid=70480 * A * (+4) 
12:20:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:SdofgOS Deleter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70482 * D * (+229) Created page with "== A few questions == After the folder is deleted, if you re-create the folder, would the files re-exist? What is the name of the deleted folder in SdofgOS Deleter? --~~~~"
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13:02:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70483&oldid=70462 * A * (+807) 
13:04:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70484&oldid=70483 * A * (+0) Improved look.
13:05:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70485&oldid=70484 * A * (+8) /* Interpreter in Io */
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13:09:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70486&oldid=70485 * A * (+148) 
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13:52:09 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70487&oldid=70426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* Structure */ lmnop wouldn be invalid as it doens't statt with a
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14:05:44 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70488&oldid=70487 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1716) /* Hello, World! */ Hello World
14:06:36 <esowiki> [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70489&oldid=70488 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) 
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15:24:38 <cpressey> fwiw I've now got an Emmental interpreter running on a web page: https://catseye.tc/installation/Emmental
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18:17:58 <arseniiv_> damn Haskell why is using you from windows with an IDE is so hard
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18:19:22 <arseniiv> I just drop my hands
18:19:51 <rain1> wash them
18:20:08 <arseniiv> yeah I’ll wash them too when I’ll pick them up :D
18:20:30 <arseniiv> that’s just too depressing
18:25:25 <arseniiv> I thought I’ll finally set up something with VS Code and then these strange errors I can’t hope to fix with versions of this and that not matching, and then in the other place they say this package ceased developing (ah, so that’s why the errors?..) and the extension relying on it will cease working after some time, and in the other place still, with another approach, they boldly say don’t windows it, there are packages which wo
18:25:25 <arseniiv> uld bite you. Scrap all that. I’ll go on writing small one-file pieces once in a blue moon without any type hints, autocomplete and scrolling the ton of error messages in GHCi each reload
18:25:28 <arseniiv> :(
18:25:56 <arseniiv> why just why
18:27:01 <arseniiv> I could run a virtual linux of course but would it be comfortable and efficient, hm
18:34:02 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egzZv8tqT_k I like this series
18:34:06 <rain1> is this esoteric
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20:08:42 <arseniiv> monads are like nomads but with n and m swapped
20:10:14 <arseniiv> rain1: interesting!
20:17:00 <arseniiv> oh the Moon is very big for a typical moon, so a moon 1,5 times more massive is even more unlikely but well I agree most times it’s not a likely case that is interesting
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20:29:17 <arseniiv> @tell rain1 my friend thanks you for the series link, or so I think
20:29:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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20:57:20 <arseniiv> if one writes `a −es→ b` for `a → Eff es b` and `a −cs→ b` for `Coe cs a → b`, `Eff es` is a monad for any `es` and `Coe cs` is a comonad for any `cs`, one can then rewrite `Eff es′ a → Eff es b` as `(() −es′→ a) −es→ b` but how can one rewrite `Coe cs′ a → Coe cs b`?
20:59:01 <arseniiv> I obviously write `a −cs′→ Coe cs b` and then I’m stuck
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21:01:19 <arseniiv> hm should I use CPS… `(Coe cs b → x) → (Coe cs′ a → x)` and then that’ll be `(b −cs→ x) → (a −cs′→ x)`, hm but should it really be backwards like that
21:02:31 <arseniiv> this all is about arrowifying (co)effectful computations to get rid of non-latent (co)effects, as in a concatenative language there are no values
21:15:48 <arseniiv> ah I think I understand the larger picture
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23:52:37 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70490&oldid=70421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1592) /* Alphaprint */

2020-03-27:

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03:09:06 <zzo38> So far I have managed to reduce the size of ZZT by more than 10K.
03:09:26 <zzo38> (This makes more memory available for game worlds.)
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07:11:33 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70491&oldid=69235 * Oklomsy * (-57) 
07:11:37 <b_jonas> oh no
07:32:25 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70492 * D * (+152) Created page with "[[SdofgOs]] contains [[SdofgOS Deleter]] as a component of the operating system. == See also == [[SdofgOS Deleter]] [[Category:2020]] [[Category:Stubs]]"
07:33:08 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70493&oldid=70492 * A * (+0) 
07:34:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System/File System]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70494 * D * (+197) Created page with "* [[SdofgOS Deleter]] is a component of [[SdofgOS]], and it is capable of deleting folders without deleting the files in the folder. --~~~~"
07:40:22 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70495&oldid=70493 * D * (+368) 
07:40:30 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70496&oldid=70495 * D * (+2) /* = Deleting a folder */
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07:42:11 <esowiki> [[SdofgOS Deleter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70497&oldid=70481 * D * (+22) 
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10:34:17 <int-e> `? password
10:34:23 <HackEso> The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with
10:35:20 <int-e> `"
10:35:24 <HackEso> 1/1:111) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. \ 271) <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me
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13:14:02 <rain1> hi
13:14:23 <rain1> arseniiv: nice!
13:15:09 <arseniiv> int-e: april is near, I lay my hands off the password I swear
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16:05:25 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1086) Will finish later
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16:05:41 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70499&oldid=70444 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* Languages */
16:06:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70500&oldid=70410 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* P */
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18:14:17 <Taneb> So, Agatha's being reminded of the waters of the Dyne in today's GG, right?
18:31:24 <Sgeo> "Every programming language has literals to encode values of certain types, and so does Pony."
18:31:27 <Sgeo> LIES
18:49:42 <Sgeo> Pony apparently uses one's complement for overflow. I'm confused as to why
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20:44:14 <int-e> \w h a t i s.a(\l.i t(\e r.a l))
20:47:31 <myname> so... poy is basically rust?
20:47:42 <myname> pony
20:53:44 <arseniiv> @type \w h a t i s.a(\l.i t(\e r.a l))
20:53:46 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘.’
20:54:06 <arseniiv> @type \w h a t i s -> a(\l -> i t(\e r -> a l))
20:54:08 <lambdabot> error:
20:54:08 <lambdabot>     • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t ~ t -> t3
20:54:08 <lambdabot>     • In the first argument of ‘a’, namely
20:54:26 <arseniiv> int-e: lambdabot caught you
20:54:39 <int-e> arseniiv: at what? I knew it wasn't typeable.
20:55:00 <arseniiv> hm right wrom the start?
20:55:05 <arseniiv> from*
20:56:17 <int-e> I did have to think about it.
20:57:24 <int-e> But a(\l. [...] (a l)) is sufficient to rule out simple types
20:58:17 <int-e> (because then l must be a function from its own type to something)
20:58:52 <int-e> but typeability is overrated
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21:23:27 <arseniiv> <int-e> but typeability is overrated => I agree typeability in a single-typed lambda calculus is overrated but I’m not sure about very complex type systems :D
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21:24:11 <int-e> . o O ( But single-typed = untyped )
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21:44:43 <zzo38> Do you know the format of the Turbo Pascal help file?
21:50:59 <int-e> . o O ( ask me 30 years ago )
21:51:07 <int-e> err
21:51:10 <int-e> 20 years, sorry
21:53:37 <int-e> There's a precursor text format, and a "help compiler", hc, possibly shipped with turbo pascal. I think the text format was documented somewhere as well.
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21:56:53 <int-e> So I guess I never looked at the format in any detail; I do remember making and using some custom help files (because the `thelp` TSR was pretty slick).
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22:00:31 <zzo38> I looked at THELP.DOC and it explains I can paste and save help screens, so it is possible to copy individual help screens that I want. I also found it comes with a few other plain text documentation files which may be helpful. (They weren't installed, but I found there is a DOC.ARC file so I loaded it and found these files.)
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22:07:04 <int-e> Some people have (almost) certainly figured out the format. http://pascal.toom.su/The+Edit+Window
22:12:47 <zzo38> Now I fixed ZZT so that the restore game menu displays the date/time of the files. Fortunately, it is Y2K compliant.
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22:14:28 <zzo38> Do you like ZZT?
22:15:21 <int-e> `quot hate
22:15:22 <HackEso> quot? No such file or directory
22:15:23 <int-e> `quote hate
22:15:24 <HackEso> 68) <scarf> and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source  <scarf> whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain  <scarf> it's all falling into place \ 77) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 228) <zzo38> Lymia: I put big spider in my bed already. So if you have no more left you do not have to worry about it anymore. You can just take a cold shower or hot acid or wh
22:17:28 <int-e> `quote 1306
22:17:29 <HackEso> 1306) <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this?  <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
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23:44:45 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70501&oldid=70498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+107) 
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2020-03-28:

00:36:18 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70502&oldid=70499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Languages */
00:50:47 <esowiki> [[Liberation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70503 * Hakerh400 * (+4931) +[[Liberation]]
00:50:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70504&oldid=70500 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Liberation]]
00:50:57 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70505&oldid=70449 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Liberation]]
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02:40:18 <esowiki> [[Trite]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70506&oldid=19294 * YamTokTpaFa * (+42) 
02:54:57 <esowiki> [[Cood]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70507&oldid=44169 * YamTokTpaFa * (+44) 
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03:08:55 <esowiki> [[Cood]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70508&oldid=70507 * YamTokTpaFa * (+3) /* External resources */
03:09:14 <esowiki> [[Cood]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70509&oldid=70508 * YamTokTpaFa * (-1) /* External resources */ why typo
03:54:16 <zzo38> Someone else who also posted stuff to esolang wiki (specifically, Ben Russell) also submitted some patches to ZZT. I am putting some of them in my own version ("FreeZZT") too.
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05:43:46 <esowiki> [[Pure]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70510 * D * (+85) Standardized version of Procedure
05:50:47 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70511&oldid=70510 * A * (+1196) 
05:52:45 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70512&oldid=70511 * A * (+321) Comment syntax for backwards compatibility.
05:53:23 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70513&oldid=70512 * A * (+69) 
05:54:58 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70514&oldid=70513 * A * (+243) 
05:56:00 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70515&oldid=70514 * A * (+119) 
05:59:59 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70516&oldid=70515 * A * (+1067) 
06:00:14 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70517&oldid=70516 * A * (+0) /* = What does line of code stand for? - */
06:02:31 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70518&oldid=70517 * A * (+218) /* A line of Pure */
06:05:07 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70519&oldid=70518 * A * (+268) /* What does line of code stand for? */
06:06:51 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70520&oldid=70519 * A * (+189) 
06:10:31 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70521&oldid=70520 * A * (+135) 
06:30:43 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70522&oldid=70521 * A * (+725) 
06:35:19 <esowiki> [[Pure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70523&oldid=70522 * A * (-80) /* Truth-machine */
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13:59:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ender scythe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70524 * YamTokTpaFa * (+412) Created page with "== May I learn more about [[TP]]? == Hello, since your website was archived but the interpreter was not, I would like to ask you.  First of all, TP has two commands <code>GET..."
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17:11:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * AdityaV *  New user account
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17:16:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70525&oldid=70460 * AdityaV * (+288) introduction
17:25:17 <esowiki> [[User:AdityaV]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70526 * AdityaV * (+165) Created page with "I am the creator of warukunai, my shabby attempt at a joke esoteric language, using python as an interpreter. [https://github.com/at-adityavikram/warukunai (Github)]"
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20:01:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Yul3n *  New user account
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20:06:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70527&oldid=70525 * Yul3n * (+322) 
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22:15:58 <zzo38> Is a constant array of pointers to procedures allowed in the "interface" section of a file in Turbo Pascal 5.5?
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22:32:08 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to work (unless I am doing it wrong). I can make it a variable instead if necessary, I suppose.
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23:49:29 <zzo38> It looks like the "with" command in Turbo Pascal has the same problem as in JavaScript; in both Pascal and in JavaScript it should have been corrected by adding a dot before the field name.

2020-03-29:

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01:06:56 <int-e> `? dst
01:06:57 <HackEso> dst? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:07:04 <b_jonas> yes, timezone offset change
01:07:49 <int-e> it's summertime... and the living is easy?!
01:09:48 <b_jonas> aww
01:11:16 <b_jonas> the MTI had announced two days ago that the timezone offset change is on 20120 March 29. is that authoritive enough that I can point to it to claim that the timezone offset is still +01 so I have an excuse to be late from anywhere by up to an hour?
01:11:30 <b_jonas> or do their later announcements that give the correct date overwrite it?
01:12:26 <int-e> I think your use of "correct" answers that question.
01:13:18 <int-e> Though nobody's stopping you from living in whatever time zone you choose. Sure, people may call you crazy.
01:13:21 <b_jonas> oh yeah, let me adjust my mobile phone, the standalone clock, and the oven clock
01:15:13 <int-e> right let me put my RC clocks by the window... well the one of the two that didn't pick up the change
01:15:25 <int-e> (I'm amazed the other one already did)
01:45:08 <zzo38> Just a few minutes ago the person who was going to make the live chat session to play the GURPS game on the computer (this will be done tomorrow) connected to test it, and it works fine. Since there are only two people (myself and the GM), I can use the direct connection I mentioned a few days (or maybe it was a week?) ago.
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01:45:43 <zzo38> He sent a bell like I asked him to, so I could notice the connection right away.
01:47:31 <zzo38> What stuff have you used the "ts" (timestamp) program for?
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02:10:43 <b_jonas> I have never used the ts program
02:13:45 <zzo38> I am playing Pokemon Card GB2; I just defeated Rod, I won by eighteen cards (despite he knocked out three of my cards and I knocked out none of his; hyper beam is very useful).
02:16:43 <zzo38> I got the legendary cards. Level 41 Dragonite and level 37 Articuno seem OK, but level 40 Moltres and level 68 Zapdos doesn't looks like so good to me.
02:16:51 <zzo38> (What do you think?)
02:19:27 <int-e> . o O ( Where does he come up with all this nonsense )
02:26:27 <zzo38> For one thing, level 40 Moltres has a 50% chance to miss with its attack, while level 41 Dragonite has only a 25% chance to miss with its attack. Level 68 Zapdos always hits, although the card it hits is selected at random and it can hit your own cards too, so that isn't very good.
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05:46:37 <Hooloovo0> how are those calculated?
05:46:53 <Hooloovo0> it has been a long time since I've played pokemon cards
05:47:20 <Hooloovo0> I think I played them before everything had levels... so...
05:49:29 <zzo38> The levels? They are printed on the card.
05:49:50 <zzo38> (I don't know how or even if they are calculated. They are just used to distinguish different cards with the same name.)
05:51:03 <int-e> So it's just a cop-out because coming up with names is hard?
05:53:32 <zzo38> Cards with the same name are still meaningful for the game, because you are still limited to four cards of one name, and evolution also depends on names of cards. (Some other effects also care.)
05:58:20 <zzo38> The cards have the same name because it is the same kind of pokemons, e.g. level 5 Pikachu and level 10 Pikachu is both Pikachu, even though such things as hit points, attacks, etc may differ. (Artwork may also differ. However, some cards with the same name and level have different artwork. But the game statistics are the same, so this is OK; level 10 Pikachu has the same game effect as any other level 10 Pikachu.)
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06:46:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:Challenger5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70528 * Yul3n * (+282) Created page with "Hi! I'm trying to implement Flurry and I've got a question, the wiki page says that <><> is the I combinator however SKSK evaluates to the K combinator and not the I one, the..."
06:47:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Challenger5]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70529&oldid=70528 * Yul3n * (-282) Blanked the page
06:49:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70530 * Yul3n * (+233) Created page with "Hi! I'm trying to implement Flurry and I've got a question, the wiki page says that <code><><></code> is the I combinator however SKSK evaluates to the K combinator and not th..."
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09:17:06 <esowiki> [[MetaGlow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70531&oldid=67008 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+63) 
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11:27:06 <esowiki> [[Pxem]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70532&oldid=70300 * YamTokTpaFa * (+38) /* External Links */
11:54:01 <esowiki> [[MetaGlow]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70533&oldid=70531 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+19) 
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12:52:56 <kspalaiologos> a friend sent me today a photo of PS/2 connector
12:53:08 <kspalaiologos> and then he asked will the keyboard work after he cuts off the PS/2 connector and soliders USB one
12:53:26 <myname> o.o
12:54:11 <olsner> some keyboards work with passive usb/ps/2 converters, so with the right pin assignments it *can* work
12:54:36 <kspalaiologos> he didn't even notice that USB has less pins than PS/2
12:54:41 <kspalaiologos> I doubt he could make it work
12:55:00 <kspalaiologos> also the keyboard is presumably very old
12:55:27 <olsner> I think if you need to ask you don't have good chances of making it work :)
12:55:28 <myname> i always wonderes how those converters worked
12:55:50 <kspalaiologos> ps/2 isn't very hard to interface with
12:56:18 <kspalaiologos> I believe that's some uC acts as an USB slave
12:57:03 <kspalaiologos> afterall ps/2 keyboards are hella complicated things
12:57:31 <kspalaiologos> you could like enable processor adress lines using 8042 controller
12:57:35 <kspalaiologos> it had even it's own RAM
12:59:54 <fizzie> I think the USB <-> PS/2 passive adapters usually work the other way around, with a keyboard that's "natively" USB but has the capability of doing PS/2 with a passive adapter.
13:00:08 <fizzie> So it wouldn't help with an old PS/2 keyboard that you'd like to plug into USB.
13:00:24 <kspalaiologos> usb => ps2 is possible
13:00:28 <kspalaiologos> mobo does it for you
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14:32:53 <b_jonas> [ 60%~7*10 20 30 40
14:32:54 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1.16667 2.33333 3.5 4.66667
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15:54:03 <Budgii> What is this channel?
15:57:12 <ArthurStrong> Budgii: see $TOPIC
15:57:22 <Budgii> what are esoteric viruses
15:57:48 <Budgii> $TOPIC
15:57:55 <ArthurStrong> Huh. This is the question. Probably, someone's joke or prank.
15:59:11 <b_jonas> uh,
15:59:14 <b_jonas> `welcome 
15:59:16 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:59:29 <b_jonas> ^ that text is more stable than the topic, and possibliy more relevant
15:59:59 <Budgii> ah ok lol
16:00:02 <Budgii> I was like Um what?!
16:00:40 <zzo38> Budgii: This is channel for esoteric computer programming (although sometimes other stuff is discussion on here too). Read the wiki for more information about esoteric computer programming.
16:01:00 <Budgii> Thank you b_jonas, zzo38 and ArthurStrong.
16:01:18 <Budgii> & HackEso 
16:01:20 <Budgii> :)
16:03:52 * Budgii leaves the room, quietly. nodding to the onlookers.
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21:42:56 <esowiki> [[And]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70534&oldid=43373 * LegionMammal978 * (+950) added BF interpreter
21:46:24 <esowiki> [[And]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70535&oldid=70534 * LegionMammal978 * (+96) added categories
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21:50:30 <esowiki> [[Noodle Soup]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70536&oldid=66449 * LegionMammal978 * (+184) added interpreter link
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22:05:54 <esowiki> [[CLEB]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70537&oldid=43377 * LegionMammal978 * (+155) added categories
22:11:58 <tromp> if my code is correct, then BB(27) < BB(26). kind of surprising 
22:13:04 <tromp> that's for lambda Busy Beaver https://oeis.org/A333479
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2020-03-30:

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03:40:09 <int-e> tromp: shouldn't BB(n) allow programs of size up to n though
03:43:04 <int-e> (but okay, it's defined for exact sizes, so such non-monotonic behavior is hardly surprising)
03:44:22 <int-e> At least BB(n+6) >= BB(n) :P
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04:52:42 <zzo38> I thought of a idea of a chess variant, where each piece has a limited allotment of non-forward moves; these are partially recovered (for all pieces on the board, including opponent's pieces too) whenever a capture occurs. The fifty move rule and repetition rules are not used.
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04:56:05 <zzo38> (The seventy-five move rule also is not used.)
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07:27:28 <tromp> int-e: you can define it either way, but this way preserves more information
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07:29:19 <tromp> and is consistent with https://oeis.org/search?q=Busy+Beaver&sort=&language=&go=Search
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11:46:40 <int-e> tromp: How difficult is showing non-termination at those sizes?
11:46:53 <int-e> (26 and 27)
11:49:54 <int-e> Maybe I should try, hmm.
11:59:05 <tromp> int-e: i've been working on that for the past few weeks. i'll soon commit ny BB.lhs to the repo where you can see the current approach
11:59:50 <tromp> basically, during the reduction, i try to see if the current reduct by itself leads to a reduction in which it reappears as reduct
12:01:20 <tromp> it fails on some term of size 29 that I hope to cover today.
12:04:28 <tromp> ok, BB.lhs comitted
12:45:26 <int-e> So (\0 0) (\0 (\1 0)) of size 25 is the first fun term.
12:46:02 <int-e> (sorry, my code is zero-based somehow)
13:14:01 <tromp> yes, it asnwers the ultimate question of life the universe, and everything:)
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13:15:57 <tromp> i.e. what is BB(25)
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13:16:58 <tromp> oh wait, that's \(\1 1) (\1 (2 1))
13:18:10 <tromp> yours ends up at size 7?!
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13:23:06 <tromp> yours cycles, but my program currently fails to see
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13:29:48 <tromp> need to fix bug in optimize function
13:30:14 <int-e> I haven't looked at your code. playing with my own :)
13:33:17 <int-e> Okay, I had a bug as well. Now I have two funny terms of size 25, (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\2))) and (\1 1) (\1 (\2 1))
13:35:56 <tromp> both recognized as diverging by my program
13:36:10 <tromp> did you find BB(25) ?
13:36:25 <int-e> 42 based on that claim
13:36:46 <tromp> cool
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13:41:16 <esowiki> [[Procedure]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70538&oldid=70501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+779) 
13:43:00 <int-e> >= 42, 52, >= 44, >= 58, >= 223
13:44:03 <tromp> yes, i have same, plus equality up to size 28
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13:57:47 <int-e> Oh and >= 160 with 4 unknown terms.
13:58:08 <int-e> But obviously this is getting increasingly dubious.
14:02:11 <int-e> (But 30 looks easier than 29)
14:24:08 <int-e> Duh. Of course eta reduction is kind of helpful.
14:27:38 <tromp> i fixed the eta bug
14:29:38 <tromp> in repo now
14:30:09 <tromp> thx for unwittingly pointing that out:)
14:31:17 <tromp> we used to optimize (\2 1) to 2 instead of the correct 1
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14:42:12 <int-e> fun
14:42:54 <int-e> but do we want eta-reduction for this, hmm
14:43:41 <int-e> (I took "normal form" to mean beta normal form, not beta-eta normal form
14:43:44 <int-e> )
14:44:26 <int-e> funny, though perhaps not all that surprising, that it didn't affect the numbers
14:51:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * ThatOrdinaryGuy *  New user account
15:01:07 <tromp> yes, i should use beta normal form in BB def
15:01:44 <tromp> but use eta reduction to help detect divergence
15:04:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70539&oldid=70527 * ThatOrdinaryGuy * (+328) 
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15:12:25 <esowiki> [[D.U.C.K.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70540&oldid=65730 * ThatOrdinaryGuy * (+1) Just fixed some grammer
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15:17:18 <tromp> for me the challenge now is to prove (\1 1) (\1 (\\3 2)) diverging
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15:40:44 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70541&oldid=68230 * ThatOrdinaryGuy * (+1) Just fixed some grammer
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16:47:18 <esowiki> [[User:ThatOrdinaryGuy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70542 * ThatOrdinaryGuy * (+142) added the basic framework
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17:09:04 <esowiki> [[ROTfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70543&oldid=69333 * Apollyon094 * (-106) 
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18:19:03 <esowiki> [[User:Orby]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70544&oldid=65749 * Orby * (-73) 
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23:07:05 <esowiki> [[ROTfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70545&oldid=70543 * Apollyon094 * (-1) 
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23:47:46 <esowiki> [[ROTfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70546&oldid=70545 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) /* Examples */
23:58:01 <Sgeo_> `olist 1197
23:58:06 <HackEso> olist 1197: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas

2020-03-31:

00:03:15 <b_jonas> o
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00:58:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70547&oldid=70530 * Challenger5 * (+270) 
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07:32:31 <Hooloovo0> have any of you played robo rally? it's basically a game about programming
07:32:58 <Hooloovo0> it has sort of an befunge feel, but the board modifies your actions
07:33:07 <Hooloovo0> and other players do too
07:35:13 <Hooloovo0> also, made by the creator of MTG before he did that
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08:26:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70548&oldid=70547 * Yul3n * (+123) 
08:26:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70549&oldid=70548 * Yul3n * (+75) 
08:31:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70550&oldid=62307 * Yul3n * (+191) 
08:44:35 <fizzie> We (as in the channel collectively) played a bunch of that one web puzzle game that's a little like that, except single-player and much simpler.
08:44:52 <fizzie> RoboZZle, it was.
08:51:55 <Hooloovo0> very nice, going to link to it since it seems like the beta/js(ugh, but whatever) version is much more usable http://www.robozzle.com/beta/
08:53:50 <Hooloovo0> hmm it doesn't seem like quite the same thing
08:55:12 <Hooloovo0> maybe if I play past the tutorials it will become more similar?
09:02:10 <Hooloovo0> it, yeah, doesn't seem so similar
09:03:03 <Hooloovo0> anyway, we have *ALL* the expansions... I'd be interested in making an online version, if I knew how to do that at all
09:04:21 <Hooloovo0> as a board game, the weapons upgrades seem like they're overpowered... but also some are as programmable as the players...
09:04:56 <Taneb> Hooloovo0: ooh, I think I played that once?
09:06:26 <Hooloovo0> nice!
09:07:47 <Hooloovo0> (implicit once-plague-is-over invitation) if any if any of you visit urbana
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09:14:19 <Taneb> Unless you're in a village in Italy, that's slightly the wrong continent for me :(
09:19:34 <Hooloovo0> no, we're basically in the middle of NA :(
09:19:40 <tromp> BB(29) = 223
09:22:38 * Hooloovo0 reads up a lot on blc and bb
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09:23:03 <int-e> tromp: BB(30)=160, BB(31)=267
09:23:27 <int-e> tromp: I added a BB.txt
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09:24:02 <tromp> you must have some way better divergence detection than me:)
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09:24:27 <Taneb> \exists c, n. \forall i, i >= n. \forall j, j >= i + c. BB(j) > BB(i)?
09:24:30 <int-e> it's not fully automatic... I have 2 manual proofs (as indicated in the file)
09:24:37 <int-e> Taneb: not a clue
09:24:45 <tromp> i had 3 manual proofs at 29
09:24:47 <int-e> Taneb: Oh wait
09:24:52 <int-e> Taneb: that one is certainly true
09:25:23 <int-e> Taneb: I should figure out what the concrete c for which I can prove this is though... 20ish, maybe?
09:25:46 <tromp> probably true for c = 2
09:26:04 <rain1> which terms require manual proof?
09:26:16 <int-e> rain1: https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/BB.txt
09:26:58 <int-e> tromp: plausible, yes, but... :)
09:27:14 <tromp> i know, i wldn't bet my life on it:)
09:28:39 <rain1> very nice
09:28:40 <int-e> Taneb: c=9 should work; one can prefix terms with lambda 2 bits, or with (\x\y.x) (7 bits, plus 2 for the apply).
09:28:58 <int-e> err, I meant to put parentheses around (2 bits).
09:31:06 <int-e> tromp: now how does one automate such inductive arguements... eww.
09:31:10 <tromp> isn't prefixing with lambda enough to get BB(n+2) >= BB(n) + 2 ?
09:31:36 <int-e> tromp: But Taneb's statement has j >= i+c
09:31:39 <int-e> not j = i+c
09:31:41 <rain1> how hard would it be to write a program that can prove those TODO ones halt?
09:31:54 <int-e> tromp: so we need an odd offset as well
09:31:58 <rain1> it seems kind of tricky i'm not sure how it would be done
09:33:08 <int-e> rain1: well, there's a certain pattern to these proofs, terms that grow in a very regular fashion.
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09:33:55 <int-e> So that could probably be captured somehow but it's highly unpleasant, and obviously once you do that you'll find terms with more complicated patterns, all up to the point where termination becomes unprovable.
09:33:57 <rain1> maybe hash each subterm, perform some reductions and then use the hash to look for repeating subterms?
09:34:33 <tromp> you don't get exact repetition though
09:34:36 <int-e> rain1: That's what we're doing already.
09:34:58 <int-e> rain1: It doesn't apply to those manual proofs (well the 3 I actually looked at)
09:35:59 <rain1> I see it now
09:37:02 <rain1> T (\1^k (T 1)) is kind of 'flat', it could basically be expressed as a string T \^k T 1 rather than a tree
09:37:50 <rain1> maybe when terms are flat it could be a simpler case
09:46:02 <int-e> Anyway, I'll leave BB(32) for a rainy day (there are few enough cases to be hopeful that they can be sorted out). But I think beyond that point it will very soon become a research grade problem (i.e., take a lot of effort and creativity). Obviously I have no clue where the unprovability territory starts.
09:49:41 <int-e> rain1: For reference, there are 978447 closed terms of size 32, so narrowing that down to 10 problematic cases is quite significant.
09:50:18 <rain1> that's really interesting, so that's where the real work was. how was that done?
09:51:24 <int-e> enumerate, reduce (with simplification along the way), try to detect loops and one relatively common class of non-terminating terms that does not have simple loops.
09:52:39 <int-e> Which, incidentally, only covers 2 terms of size 32. It can probably be generalized somewhat to cover a couple more.
09:54:37 <int-e> Taneb: actually I should've written c=8. But c=6 should also work: pick any variable n and replace it by \(n+1) 1 (which eta-reduces to n).
09:55:08 <int-e> Taneb: Which adds an abstraction, an application, and one extra bit for changing n to n+1, so that's 7 bits.
09:55:45 <int-e> Hmm, unfortunately though that only shows BB(n+7) >= BB(n).
09:56:09 <int-e> (Wheras BB(n+2) > BB(n) is strict.)
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13:03:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Alphaprint]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70551&oldid=70399 * Rerednaw * (+867) Edit in my JS code, following the addition of the "Hello, World!" example
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13:20:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Flurry]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70552&oldid=70549 * Yul3n * (+169) 
13:24:05 <tromp> int-e: how did you automate the proof of divergence for the 29-bit terms (\1 1) (\1 (\\3 2)),   (\1 1) (\1 (\1 (2 1))),   and (\1 1) (\1 (\2 1 1)) ?
13:26:16 <tromp> ignore the muddle one; i see you did that manually
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13:36:43 <wib_jonas> how does this lambda thing work? can you effectively do lazy evaluation, as in, if there's a non-terminating term inside but it's never called, it isn't a problem?
13:39:09 <int-e> tromp: I want to sleep on what I did and document it properly, please remind me tomorrow
13:39:22 <wib_jonas> nic
13:40:24 <tromp> wib_jonas: for BB you take consider the normal form so any non terminating part is a problem
13:41:02 <int-e> tromp: but the idea is to generalize the (\1 1) (\1 1) thing, noting in particular that you can have additional contexts (\1 1) (\C[1 1]) (C may have lambdas and that shifts the variables) and also some additional abstractions (\1 1) (\1 (\1 1)).
13:41:08 <wib_jonas> tromp: but don't those non-terminating parts get discarded as you evaluate to the normal form?
13:41:08 <tromp> i.e. BB is not specific to any normalization strategy
13:41:21 <tromp> oh, you're right
13:41:47 <tromp> so you do need to use one that guarantees nf if one exists
13:42:06 <int-e> wib_jonas: left-most outermost is strongly normalizing (even hypernormalizing--that's a fun concept) for the untyped lambda calculus.
13:42:18 <int-e> err
13:42:20 <int-e> s/strongly//
13:42:39 <wib_jonas> int-e: right, that is lazy evaluation. and I assume you take this into account when you prove non-termination of a term.
13:43:25 <int-e> (normalizing = finds a normal form if it exists. strongly normalizing = that + termination. hypernormalizing: if you interleave the strategy and arbitrary reduction, you still reach the normal form if you don't starve the strategy)
13:44:35 <int-e> (such arbitrary reduction steps are highly useful for simplification, but also for program transformations)
13:44:37 <wib_jonas> int-e: I don't understand the distinction between the first two
13:45:08 <int-e> wib_jonas: strong normalization entails that normal forms always exist
13:47:38 <int-e> (And the term is usually used in contexts where the strategy doesn't matter, like simply typed lambda calculus, where unrestricted beta (or beta+eta) reduction is strongly normalizing)
13:48:03 <wib_jonas> er what? this is lambda calculus and you consider all terms, so a normal form doesn't always exist. how can "strong normalization entail" that and be meaningful?
13:48:14 <int-e> wib_jonas: it isn't
13:48:21 <int-e> wib_jonas: That's why I corrected to "normalizing"
13:48:45 <wib_jonas> ah
13:49:32 <esowiki> [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70553&oldid=70538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+169) /* Define/Call Function */
13:56:45 <wib_jonas> http://sigbovik.org/2020/ says SIGBOVIK 2020 is a conference that isn't on-site but works by audio talks through the internet. it also says that it's "on April 1 at 5pm". what timezone?
13:56:56 <Taneb> At a guess, GMT-4
13:57:03 <wib_jonas> probably the New York timezone, yes
13:57:08 <Taneb> (the time zone of the usual venue)
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14:48:01 <tromp> int-e: in your (\1 1) (\C[1 1]), you check that context C is strict in the hole?
15:14:57 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70554&oldid=70260 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Comments */
15:27:21 <int-e> tromp: Actually I demand that the hole is in a head position...
15:27:42 <tromp> that would do it...
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16:01:01 <arseniiv> how many prominent SIGBOVIK entries have #esoteric made? (for all time)
16:02:12 <b_jonas> dunno
16:02:31 <b_jonas> some of #esoteric are actually in the U.S., we Europeans aren't in a clear majority
16:03:09 <arseniiv> when I read (too late) the presentations are audio-only, I thought I may have lost a chance to push my luck and submit something, though anyway I had no ideas at all and I have very little experience in spoken English, and in writing papers too :D
16:03:52 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> some of #esoteric are actually in the U.S., we Europeans aren't in a clear majority => yeah I thought the distribution is more or less diverse between many countries
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16:05:05 <arseniiv> that said, I’m not against a joint paper, SIGBOVIK or not. Though the lack of interesting ideas on my part still stands :(
16:17:00 <b_jonas> arseniiv: they also say that you can submit just a paper, without a presentation, I think
16:18:21 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah though I’d be glad to be involved in random picking of answers to audience; and I still don’t have any interesting things to write
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18:17:39 <tromp> int-e: does (\1 1) (\1 (\\3 2)) fall under your (\1 1) (\C[1 1]) detection?
18:27:32 <zzo38> Why does my internet connection tend to not work so well on the last day of a month?
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20:20:57 <esowiki> [[+-]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70555&oldid=66723 * Voltage2007 * (+1744) 
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21:38:15 <cpressey> I saw a strange sight in the night sky tonight - a line of lights moving eastward, all the same velocity and trajectory. Turns out it was, most likely, a group of experimental SpaceX satellites.
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