00:53:09 -!- kmc has quit (Changing host). 00:53:09 -!- kmc has joined. 01:03:43 everyone knows that naming something "final version" is almost always a bad idea, because there will be a later vesrion. and "modern" or "contemporary" is also almost always a bad idea, because your book title WILL read stupid a few decades from now. but I'm starting to suspect that naming technological things "mini" or "micro" or "nano" or "tiny" or "compact" is also a bad idea, because something 01:03:49 smaller will come along later and your name will sound silly. just look at "compact flash cards" and "compact disks" 01:08:31 zzo38: right, I should have looked on the scryfall wiki first: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Hero_(card_type) 01:12:03 -!- tromp has joined. 01:16:13 O, so that is what it is. (It still isn't quite so clear how it is working. Vanguards aren't permanents, but heroes presumably would have to be, in order for their functions to work.) 01:16:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:20:15 -!- tromp has joined. 01:25:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:27:42 -!- tromp has joined. 01:29:18 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:32:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:33:35 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:45:16 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:01:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:01:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 02:01:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:10:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:07:32 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:12:57 -!- olsner has joined. 03:17:17 -!- tromp has joined. 03:22:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:12:28 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 04:53:37 * pikhq yawns, waves for the first time in some time 05:15:53 yawn-wave 05:16:44 somebody should try that in a stadion... get a column to yawn simultaneously, see how infectious yawns really are) 05:21:39 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:25:40 Lol 05:33:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:36:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:49:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:52:55 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 06:28:06 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:44:37 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:48:07 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:59:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:01:55 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:02:37 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:03:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:06:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:19:22 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70605&oldid=70558 * Challenger5 * (-164) 07:28:14 -!- imode has joined. 07:34:12 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 07:34:32 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 07:35:02 -!- noomy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:22 -!- wlp1s1 has joined. 07:35:46 -!- moony has joined. 07:36:23 -!- moony has changed nick to noomy. 07:36:25 -!- iczero has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:47:43 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 07:57:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:11:18 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:11:39 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 09:27:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:28:39 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:29:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:29:29 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:31:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:38:40 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:13:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:16:21 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:43:07 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:09:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:12:11 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:40:45 -!- spruit11 has joined. 11:43:53 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 11:44:27 -!- arseniiv__ has joined. 11:45:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:48:27 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:52:08 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:55:40 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:09:19 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 12:52:28 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:00:08 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:13:13 [[Talk:2KWLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70606 * LegionMammal978 * (+232) Created page with "Are the Unicode double quotes ( as opposed to "") part of the syntax, or are they unintentional? ~~~~" 13:33:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:46:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:49:30 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:01:35 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:52:17 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nomennominatur * New user account 14:54:31 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70607&oldid=70602 * Nomennominatur * (+113) 14:55:13 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70608&oldid=70607 * Nomennominatur * (+0) 15:17:17 -!- hakatashi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:17:22 -!- hakatashi1 has joined. 15:17:26 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:17:59 -!- diverger has joined. 15:37:47 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:43:59 -!- tromp has joined. 16:31:59 -!- esowiki has joined. 17:21:17 int-e: i'm working on resolving the remaining TODOs in BB.txt 17:24:09 -!- rain1 has joined. 17:36:18 -!- imode has joined. 17:56:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:59:48 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:12:59 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:16:09 -!- arseniiv__ has changed nick to arseniiv. 18:24:43 -!- imode has joined. 18:59:42 -!- MTGBusyBeaver42 has joined. 19:03:23 -!- aloril has joined. 19:08:01 For those interested in an update on the MTG deck using The Waterfall Model to get BB numbers while still not going infinite, our current bound is BB_16(120) 19:08:04 where BB_1(x) is the normal busy beaver function and BB_2(x) is BB_1(x) nested instances of BB_1(x) 19:10:08 We still have a little room and are no longer restricted to 6 clocks (now over 100) 19:10:50 what would be helpful would be knowing whether the Flooding variant is Turing complete or not. 19:20:40 MTGBusyBeaver42: I wanted to ask, what is the defn of BB_k? 19:21:34 you only say what BB_2 is and it"s not clear how to continue 19:30:08 also doesn't BB have two inputs, the nr of clocks and the bound on the matrix elements, and you vary only the latter? 19:30:49 Bound on the matrix imput 19:31:27 BB_n+1(x) is BB_n(x) nested BB_n(x) times 19:32:50 do you always have 120 clocks? what is the matrix elt bound at the start? 19:33:12 once we have more than 6 clocks we can implement a UTM where the simulated TM is bound by the input 19:33:44 I mean it might not matter, you get a number that's larger than I can imagine 19:34:08 we max out our clocks at half the number of creature types 19:35:01 the 120 constant is the number of large life gains we can get in the setup 19:36:07 which is mostly from the limits of the opponent's deck size 19:38:17 We have them draw 53 cards and discard 60 for 113 just from their deck 19:40:49 how do you get the output value from the waterclock machine? 19:42:07 we make mana via Mana echoes and turn that into storm for Thousand Year Storm 19:43:14 And eventually run out of attack steps so we have the last one trample over and kill them 19:45:31 But what value does that read from the abstract machine? it's just that 120 sounds too small and I want to see this can even start to grow 19:46:21 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70609&oldid=70590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* M */ 19:47:11 -!- MDude has joined. 19:50:04 Well theres a bit of rounding being lost in the bound. We get a few iterations just using our starting life total, and we can easily make our starting matrix for the first computation have values far more than 10^^^^10 19:51:31 which was what ais theorized was required to get BB numbers with the 6 waterclock version 20:00:04 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:01:50 (I'm not sure exactly how big we can get the first computation, most of the tiers we get for the BB function also apply to our pre BB setup to get up to 10->10->16, but it doesn't show in the overall estimation) 20:02:28 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:03:16 [[ADDI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70610&oldid=65119 * LegionMammal978 * (+7730) copied operator tables 20:05:31 anyway, iterating BB_n BB_n times to get BB_{n+1} is crazy 20:05:38 so our first computation would last on the order of BB(x) ticks, and we's get BB(x) colorless mana, which becomes BB(x) storm, and then BB(x) extra combat steps at the cost of a red mana 20:05:39 that will result in even larger numbers than I can imagine 20:05:48 and then you do BB_16 20:06:16 that sounds crazy big, unless you messed something up and it just doesn't work and the deck can just deal 500 damage or something 20:07:08 more likely is we have missed an infinite and the deck is disqualified :( 20:07:28 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70611&oldid=70600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Syntax */ 20:08:57 that too 20:09:16 BB(BB(10^^^^10)) is already much larger than any number that I can imagine 20:09:23 very likely even BB(10^^^^10) is 20:12:34 even BB(1919) is beyond ZFC set theory 20:15:11 in that someone has explicitly made a 2 symbol, 1919 state Turing Machine that halts IFF ZFC is inconsistent. 20:15:50 MTGBusyBeaver42: yes, but that's for the turing machine BB, not for the waterclock BB 20:15:59 for waterclocks, 1919 is probably not enough 20:16:24 10^^^^10 is way more than enough with a few dozen clocks 20:17:04 true, but they still grow at an uncomputable rate 20:17:11 that said, that particular 1919 state machine probalby does not halt 20:17:14 so it doesn't really help you 20:17:52 the rate, sure, I was just afraid that if you start form 120, then you get something silly like BB(120) = 1, and you can't even start to increase your numbers 20:18:05 but I hope you checked that that's not the case with your construction 20:19:25 oh no we can easily grow faster, consider the examples on the tutorial http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/ 20:19:43 by the way, beaver is particularly thematic for a waterclock machine, because they build dams 20:20:05 so it should be like "busy ant" for a turing machine, and "busy beaver" for waterclock 20:20:42 all of the halting examples take more than their maximum value to halt 20:22:20 and yes, the name and theme of TWM is particularly suited to this challenge 20:23:58 I guess it would be "busy bee" for a machine with a RAM, and "busy bird" for something based on combinator calculus or lambda calculus 20:25:10 tromp: do you call it busy bird function? 20:25:22 the binary lambda calculus one that is 20:27:35 lno; i just call it BB_lambda 20:28:13 as you can see at https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form 20:29:28 if you define one for combinators it's gonna grow slower 20:38:58 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:46:49 BB.txt updated in repo 21:02:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:17:41 Can division by zero errors be caught in Turbo Pascal? 21:21:38 zzo38: division of what type? 21:22:28 Integer division. 21:23:27 sure, but 16-bit or 32-bit? because 16-bit is a cpu built in instruction, but 32-bit need not be if you're compiling for 286. also, for what target? DOS or Win16? 21:24:00 for DOS and 16-bit, you can probably just override the interrupt handler, as long as you restore the original handler when your program exits 21:24:08 Sixteen bits. Target is DOS. 21:24:32 then probably override the interrupt handler. 21:25:05 turbo pascal has a well-defined register use ABI so you can interface it with machine code 21:27:17 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:29:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:30:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:33:19 Do you know if Turbo Pascal has a IF expression (like C has the ?: expression)? 21:33:44 zzo38: I don't think it has one, but you'll have to check the help 21:34:09 zzo38: do you need a lazy one? 21:34:21 I mean a shortcut one 21:34:53 Yes. 21:35:17 I think you need a proper if statement, but I'm not sure 21:35:20 (Of course I can do without, although it would be helpful to have it if it does have.) 21:36:30 zzo38: could you use borland C++ instead? you can even link compilation units among them together if you write C prototypes of the pascal functions, and compile exported C functions with the pascal calling convention 21:36:50 it even has a slightly better optimizer 21:37:08 and a comparably good library that comes with them 21:37:26 though really ancient, confusing if you are used to modern C or modern C++ 21:37:46 I doubt it is a good reason to change everything to C just due to such an operator, since a IF expression isn't really needed 21:37:53 in particular, be REALLY careful with code that uses the "long long" type, because the borland compiler believes that's just a strange spelling of "long" and accepts it without warning and gives you a 32-bit integer 21:38:59 zzo38: sure, that alone isn't a good reason to change 21:40:32 also the pascal compiler is at least small. I could put turbo.exe (the GUI) and the few files it needs (but not the command-line compiler) to my compressed boot floppy with enough space for other programs, that's impossible for the borland C compiler with just a single 1.44 MB floppy 21:41:49 but then you can probably afford multiple floppies, or a hard disk 21:42:11 Yes, I am storing the files on the hard disk 21:42:32 termbot had both the pascal and the C compiler runnable from command line from its hard disk 21:42:40 (also qbasic) 21:43:22 (but qbasic is very hard to use, because its PRINT statement and error messages don't write to stdout/stderr) 21:44:12 I doubt that C is the best programming language for real-mode PC programming, due to the memory segmentation. 21:44:33 zzo38: borland C has extensions to C for that 21:45:39 you can declare pointers that point to specific program segments, dereference pointers to a specific segment, even have variables of type pointer to segment and dereference using those, or just have far or huge pointers 21:45:39 O, OK. 21:46:01 IIRC there's a special infix operator :> to combine a segment with an offset 21:46:25 of cousre you may still want to write some or all of your program in assembly, simply because the compiler doesn't optimize too well 21:48:26 The reason I am using Pascal is because I am modifying a program that is already written in Pascal, anyways. 21:49:26 and do you want to compile it for DOS, as opposed to port it to a more modern linux pascal compiler? 21:50:26 Yes, I am compiling it for DOS. (I have no intention to port this program to other operating systems, although some other people are, either in Pascal or by rewriting it in C.) 21:50:57 It is ZZT. Do you like ZZT? 21:51:22 I don't know, I don't follow these game engines much 21:55:58 I have made many changes, including removing the editor (in order to save memory; but there are external editors that can be used instead), allowing pushing X to clear the message line during game play, making HOME and END keys work in popup text windows, displaying file modification times in the save game menu, getting rid of the configuration menu and help menu (to save both memory and time), etc 22:03:18 Does DOSBOX implement EMS? 22:03:26 I hope so 22:05:13 but if not, there are other emulators 22:12:09 zzo38: try to run the MEM command, that should at least tell if EMM is enabled in your current config 22:13:22 It says 15168 Kb free expanded memory, so it looks like it is implemented (although I don't know if there are problems with the implementation). 22:18:30 Another emulator is Zeta, which is sometimes used with ZZT, although Zeta does not implement EMS as far as I can tell (even though the author of Zeta has also written the code to allow ZZT to use EMS) 22:20:52 zzo38: I used Dosbox very little. I just ran most of my DOS programs on a real MS-DOS in a machine emulated by Bochs 22:21:02 well, after I stopped running native DOS that is 22:21:56 and DOS windows in Win16 22:24:09 although that's sort of orthogonal, I have ran Win16 in the Bochs virtual machine 22:32:07 There is only one 16-bit Windows program I intend to run on my computer, which is Hero Mesh, so that I can test the behaviour to see that the behaviour of Free Hero Mesh in compatibility mode matches that of Hero Mesh. 23:41:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:49:17 -!- xelxebar has joined. 23:58:55 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).