< 1586649727 262251 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586649822 322894 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Client Quit < 1586649919 314526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1586649990 644185 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User talk:Palaiologos10]]": Author request: normally user talk pages aren't deleted, but no relevant warnings/communication from others was present < 1586650090 608522 :nona!9db570ae@client-112-174.eduroam.elte.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1586650136 166848 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Tac Toe Toe Grow10]]": redirect from unlikely misspelling (notwithstanding that it was created due to that misspelling) < 1586650495 237041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the HTML specification really creepy and unnatural < 1586650504 209017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it starts off innocently enough < 1586650519 853583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after a while, you realise that it is an entire web browser written in pseudocode > 1586650529 995579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MiniUSPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70897&oldid=30402 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586650540 254571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with corrections for bugs, a library system, and similar other things you would find in programming languages < 1586650545 894608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you can't run it because it's pseudocode) < 1586650592 721549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc programs are substantially shorter in pseudocode because you can just gloss over details, invent builtins on the fly, and the like < 1586650595 130657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still creepy < 1586650829 97547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, including a lot of compatibility stuff for old and broken webpages (though not the MSIE compatibility stuff), defining all the DOM interface for javascript, except you have to add the CSS spec because that's in a separate document < 1586650928 97451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus I guess the SVG and MathML spec if you want to support those > 1586651093 303455 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Minim14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70898&oldid=54427 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-1763) 10fixed code blocks < 1586651157 267221 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that some things could be implemented differently, possibly subject to user configuration. Some things should be implemented different anyways, depend on view modes, etc. > 1586652124 550678 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Minkolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70899&oldid=49842 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+93) 10added repo link < 1586652301 81950 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586652689 84180 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1586653972 912168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Comefrom0x1014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70900&oldid=52432 5* 03Hdjensofjfnen 5* (+0) 10/* Types */ > 1586655562 475793 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Promo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70901&oldid=70893 5* 03Structuresend 5* (-44) 10 > 1586657034 894300 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70902&oldid=59419 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586657041 875773 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9d8c:9832:2a9:697b JOIN :#esoteric < 1586657324 845066 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:9d8c:9832:2a9:697b QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1586660705 842212 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e159:cc2c:8f3b:6229 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586660957 841429 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e159:cc2c:8f3b:6229 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1586665323 233445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1586667181 9335 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e159:cc2c:8f3b:6229 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586667478 979277 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:e159:cc2c:8f3b:6229 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586670446 260249 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1586673733 850435 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:6480:879b:1e59:3651 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586673804 3502 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb JOIN :#esoteric < 1586673977 840115 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:6480:879b:1e59:3651 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1586674090 979660 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586675782 842319 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb JOIN :#esoteric < 1586676806 218096 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586677325 369998 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586678024 963751 :Guest76489!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586678037 952814 :Guest76489!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1586678082 755011 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome Guest76489 < 1586678085 583306 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​02Guest76489: 06Welcome 13to 04the 07international 08hub 09for 02esoteric 06programming 13language 04design 07and 08deployment! 09For 02more 06information, 13check 04out 07our 08wiki: 09. 02(For 06the 13other 04kind 07of 08esoterica, 09try 02#esoteric 06on 13EFnet 04or 07DALnet.) < 1586678162 605858 :Guest76489!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy easter < 1586678510 638408 :Guest76489!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who here is in the process of applying to unemployment < 1586678566 56307 :Guest76489!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey int-e < 1586678663 871611 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never knew you need to apply in order to be unemployed < 1586678976 833913 :Guest76489!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586679351 834137 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586679383 112566 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname I hope you're having a good Sunday morning! happy easter < 1586679573 558802 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone playing any video games right now? < 1586679702 109619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on webcomics < 1586679757 5390 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one are you reading now? < 1586679795 659812 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to play M&B warband < 1586679817 992531 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :name: Too many. Apocalyptic Horseplay is a recent addition. < 1586679884 67645 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm waiting for Bannerlord to be stable so I can pirate^H^H^H^H^H^H buy it obviously < 1586680099 661527 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :name: basically webcomics work like this https://xkcd.com/609/ on a somewhat slower scale. < 1586680467 251227 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos M&B warband kind of reminds me of Blade and Sorcery at first glance < 1586680505 106949 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1586680518 479693 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're missing the strategical POV, the map screen < 1586680540 841037 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1586680544 199739 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :google images don't show it < 1586680591 29638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: https://mobile.twitter.com/SamWangPhD/status/1249132655737790464?p=p <-- getting closer to confirmation :-( < 1586680646 269414 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e if you're into webcomics, I just started working with some friends on one as a way to raise money to build an installation for burning man 2020 < 1586680649 535899 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: imo, webcomics are not _that_ likely to link to other interesting ones < 1586680659 922386 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TheGuardian picked it up) < 1586680660 473545 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll let you. know how it goes < 1586680668 950687 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: You'd be surprised. < 1586680705 23182 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the apocalyptic horseplay one looks nice. I just read a few pages < 1586680724 931120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: IME, if a webcomic author lists 10 comics that they like, and you like their stuff, you'll like 2 or 3 of those comics as well. < 1586680786 116389 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Obviously there are duplicates... but it's still a growing pool.) < 1586680814 469245 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh xkcd is cute! I can see why you're into webcomics. just in the few suggestions you sent, I'm already spiraling deeper into the void < 1586681316 833344 :name!61717d8b@97-113-125-139.tukw.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586683118 782950 :unrooted!~unrooted@user-5-173-2-106.play-internet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1586684398 26371 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586684433 200930 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586684477 122876 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1586684705 607754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WebFuckLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70903&oldid=70868 5* 03Noxomix 5* (+549) 10 > 1586684801 239669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WebFuckLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70904&oldid=70903 5* 03Noxomix 5* (+66) 10/* Examples */ > 1586685253 455320 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WebFuckLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70905&oldid=70904 5* 03Noxomix 5* (+717) 10 < 1586685478 819246 :unrooted!~unrooted@user-5-173-2-106.play-internet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586685529 778373 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586685767 219609 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1586685996 185441 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bunk bed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70906&oldid=70883 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+10) 10/* Comparing mappings */ fix typos < 1586686357 387496 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-171-136.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1586686581 548566 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Babalang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70907&oldid=70867 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+15) 10Easier searchability < 1586688187 168463 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1586688725 342121 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1586689314 575945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found another use for unshare() :-) http://paste.debian.net/1139892/ < 1586689998 310572 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, so that has to be setuid to be allowed to unshare? always seemed counterintuitive that sandboxing requires *additional* privileges... anything should be allowed to go further down its own rabbithole < 1586690056 733772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: you can use most of clone unprivilaged < 1586690062 84039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do some sandboxing for it < 1586690087 10658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you need to be root to set up bridge network devices in the containing host, which is very useful for sandboxing < 1586690088 725679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh, can I do that, hmm. < 1586690133 400926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: anyway, that you can do sandboxing as user is a noble goal, and the Linux devs are trying to go there, but the fact is, it's really hard to get right, and we don't want to compromise the kernel with security bugs because of that, so it's going slow < 1586690168 424931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Only a privileged process (CAP_SYS_ADMIN) can employ CLONE_NEWNET." < 1586690195 706858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, which make sense, you couldn't modify the network devices in the other namespace as non-root anyway < 1586690227 654387 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, you set up the sandbox with root privilages, then let the non-user access it < 1586690245 327912 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably learn about that. (At least set up a loopback device) < 1586690271 605811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sadly I don't know the details of sandbox network setup. I should learn about it some day. < 1586690299 342326 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah exactly my point, I don't know about it either. < 1586690305 486750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess start from (man 8 ip) and ask on irc < 1586690356 513729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also network_namespaces(7). < 1586690366 351712 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense that to e.g. bridge to a physical interface you'd need outside-system privileges, but it ought to be possible to e.g. set up an isolated sandbox and talk to it (e.g. do user-space port forwarding) without ever going "up" in privileges < 1586690422 110036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: but why put all that policy into the kernel when you can write a userspace daemon to do all that < 1586690531 5569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At the cost of messing up the process parenthood story.) < 1586690622 37797 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, some day... and in the meantime I'll enjoy the 5 minute hack. < 1586690658 231415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Another starting point is the unshare command line tool, which supports at least some of the networking stuff. < 1586690854 444917 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586690897 274195 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1586690899 222981 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is starving for attention. < 1586691049 786250 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1586691433 272119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Babalang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70908&oldid=70907 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+4990) 10Document YOU > 1586692257 828868 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70909&oldid=68863 5* 03IFcoltransG 5* (+626) 10Added a link to another esoteric discord server < 1586694073 919018 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bfgen < 1586694076 853561 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :bfgen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1586694079 740292 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bftextgen < 1586694081 63158 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :bftextgen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1586694085 689385 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bfgen text < 1586694086 462154 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :bfgen? No such file or directory < 1586694094 65907 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is this brainfuck generator named < 1586694094 141013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's called bfasm and asmbf < 1586694100 200990 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not this one < 1586694108 644289 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the brainfuck code generator from a string < 1586694118 851045 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the fungot prefix, I forgot < 1586694130 75166 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm he's dead < 1586694140 65084 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that generated the casino program? you haven't got the source code of that, so unless it put a doc comment into the compiled code, you won't know the name < 1586694156 978291 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1586694175 360092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? genbf < 1586694176 622447 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :genbf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1586694181 637505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` type genbf < 1586694182 520940 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :genbf is /hackenv/bin/genbf < 1586694187 736855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` genbf --help < 1586694188 701980 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :fold: invalid number of columns: '--help' < 1586694192 87720 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh HackEso has had a brainfuck text generator < 1586694195 599903 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I need right now < 1586694260 359841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the wiki links to one < 1586694521 168831 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh nvm < 1586694525 278450 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just use my old, inefficient one < 1586695431 238133 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1586695469 448738 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70910&oldid=70796 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+294) 10/* Auto-formatting */ < 1586695546 405983 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1586695621 778424 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.187 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1586695703 414779 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.187 JOIN :#esoteric > 1586695726 538664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70911&oldid=70910 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+157) 10 > 1586695789 354125 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PlusOrMinus 214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70912&oldid=70911 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10/* Resources */ > 1586696453 509184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70913&oldid=70762 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+31) 10/* Languages */ > 1586697650 896594 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70914&oldid=70326 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+109) 10 < 1586697870 714345 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1586698105 663862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Oh great. Interfaces are created via the netlink (more specifically rtnetlink) protocol... the tools (iproute2) are developed in tandem with the kernel so this area is underdocumented. In particular, there's an IFLA_INFO_KIND attribute which one can set to "veth" to create that kind of device that I believe is not documented at all. < 1586698144 811031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: right. that's why the next step is to ask people on irc. < 1586698161 271058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still have to look at the docs first before that < 1586698390 972387 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course you can just execute the 'ip' tool with the right parameters in whatever namespace you want to manipulate.) < 1586698415 250615 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586698445 103755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, it can be figured out ... none of this is rocket science. :) > 1586698504 931942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70915&oldid=70913 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+50) 10 < 1586698512 756750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading the iproute2 sources is doable as well (that's how I found the IFLA_INFO_KIND thing in the first place... well, after also looking at the veth.c in the kernel sources and finding a reference to a "kind"). > 1586698540 850851 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70916&oldid=70915 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+14) 10 > 1586698555 722875 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70917&oldid=70916 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-64) 10end test < 1586698594 311885 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1586699554 516566 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70918&oldid=70914 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+620) 10 > 1586699586 156679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* 10moved [[02User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test10]] to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]: another unnamed language > 1586699831 400531 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70921&oldid=70919 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+436) 10/* Operators */ > 1586699922 173584 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70922&oldid=70921 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+87) 10/* Operators */ > 1586699931 479778 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70923&oldid=70922 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2) 10/* Examples */ > 1586699950 176962 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70924&oldid=70923 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* Examples */ > 1586699963 980134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70925&oldid=70924 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+11) 10/* Operators */ > 1586701807 869835 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70926&oldid=70889 5* 03Uriel 5* (+44) 10added memory system category < 1586703836 144648 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i determined that the hanging/memory-hogging behaviour of BB(x) 35 is due to just a handful of terms < 1586703891 843423 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can subject BB(35) to manual analysis < 1586704420 378005 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i have only 8 terms left to analyze < 1586704465 473415 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :including one candidate for beating 3^27 < 1586705119 777552 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1586705218 415010 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.187 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1586705320 978773 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:NEGATOR14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70927 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+215) 10Created page with "The closing brace mentions a "condition you put immediately after it"; what is the syntax of such a condition? ~~~~" < 1586705343 276177 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586705545 125567 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1586706518 302715 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1586706965 398170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70928&oldid=70925 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1089) 10 > 1586707153 428785 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ndef14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70929&oldid=36781 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title > 1586707240 636156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70930&oldid=70926 5* 03Ais523 5* (+49) 10merely colon-linking to a category isn't enough to categorise, you have to add it to the category list too; also add [[Category:Implemented]] as well, while I'm here, because the page lists interpreters > 1586707667 160173 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NegaPosi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70931&oldid=8033 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+100) 10fixed links < 1586707867 410794 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586708041 237266 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1586708225 831670 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1586708419 304423 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1586708923 700950 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586710504 743414 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1586710725 398170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586710734 648282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, so it turns out that there's a practical use for the imp < 1586710765 843724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on early models of the IBM 1620, the operator manually entering and running an imp was the standard way to clear memory between programs < 1586710781 316009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is an argument for making the all-zeroes instruction an imp in a new processor design < 1586710787 595272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what imp? < 1586710797 4105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is an imp? < 1586710800 17249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :an implementation? < 1586710801 358227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an imp is a machine code instruction that copies itself to the next memory location in memory < 1586710815 443512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so immediately after running, the next instruction now contains an imp too < 1586710821 732726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1586710834 53651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a weird way to memset? < 1586710834 290013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will inevitably end up filling all of memory unless it hits a page fault or some other thread overwrites it just as it's about to run < 1586710847 210122 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1586710852 13450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I didn't think imps had any practical use < 1586710857 728246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was wrong, which is why I commented on it here < 1586710859 739035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but many machines already have copy instructions that you can use to fill memory < 1586710868 752483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in memory copy instructions > 1586710870 526901 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70932&oldid=67039 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+173) 10added repo link and categories < 1586710890 370872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they work on overlapping memory if you want to make many repeated copies of a pattern (even a single byte) < 1586710935 433479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the ones that don't, that's because there's a fast way based on normal instructions to do a block copy < 1586710948 416411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that's not great for zeroing all of memory because a) it'll end up overwiting itself at some point, b) it's likely to be more than a single instruction long < 1586710969 129448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, you zero all the memory other than that code instead < 1586710980 745717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did some research into the fastest way to bulk-store memory on a modern processor, it appears to involve nontemporal writes of 128 bits at a time from multiple different source registers < 1586710994 887360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's a /lot/ of code < 1586711029 500054 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so? why is that a problem. isn't this for zeroing memory to make sure that no information from before remains? just make sure when you load that block of code that it doesn't have holes, so nothing but that code remains. < 1586711031 915084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to get that to zero itself might be possible, though, because each loop iteration zeroes a huge amount of memory, so you could probably make the last iteration of the loop overwrite the entire program front-to-end < 1586711046 165444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I guess, but it's inelegant < 1586711056 355743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you want to zero that, you could use a slower but smaller zeroing method to zero that < 1586711086 813242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I can see one potential issue with using an imp to zero memory: because all of memory is now filled with an imp, it guarantees that the entire state of the running program will be wiped out if the instruction pointer ever goes out of bounds, making it hard to debug what happened < 1586711117 25778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless your program counter doesn't wrap) < 1586711152 440378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also that only works if the memory that you want to write forms a single solid contiguous segment, which is not always true in machines with bank changing or ROM or something < 1586711174 771289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1586711180 165163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need a page fault, just a ROM that ignores writes < 1586711221 375146 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the Name „Imp“ come from Corewar? < 1586711221 519524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, on a vaguely related topic: does anyone know of computer storage devices that are reasonably possible to obtain in modern times, that store data (and transmit it to the computer) in 3-bit or 6-bit chunks? < 1586711222 450209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an unmapped memory area that ignores writes, in case of those old cpus that are in sync with the RAM < 1586711223 922546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :APic: yes < 1586711227 400236 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1586711246 332528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does it have to be hardware? I can emulate such a thing in software < 1586711248 431050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :six-channel paper tape would be an obvious choice but a) tape readers aren't readily available nowadays, b) six-channel is an uncommon size < 1586711275 540830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ideally yes; I can emulate it in software too, and was planning to, but if the software is itself stored on an 8-bit disk it doesn't fit the intended usecase < 1586711281 75186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't heard of six-row paper tape < 1586711288 135598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 5 row and 7 row < 1586711356 528235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 8-row was also used < 1586711361 641744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, 6 was not a standard size < 1586711465 548684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on some floppy disk hardware, you could define a custom disk format that uses 6-bit bytes < 1586711484 990657 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 12-bit words or something < 1586711562 663097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering about reformatting a disk to use words that weren't 8 bits long < 1586711581 89449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have that much of a grasp about how low-level reformatting of a disk (changing tracks, cylinders, etc.) works < 1586711592 568199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the "formatting" I'm aware of is actually file system creatino < 1586711594 964899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*creation < 1586711659 595230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on modern floppy drives, yes, because the hardware floppy controller handles most of those low level ops. but on the Commodore 1541, the floppy drive that is used the most often used with the Commodore 64, there's a cpu and rom and small RAM in the floppy drive that allows the user to reprogram it, < 1586711720 174697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the program that runs on the floppy drive handles individual low level bit read/write one by one (the cpu is fast enough for that), where the low level bits are such that you can't write more than three consecutive 0s or else it won't reliably read back or some such, < 1586711751 973776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the floppy drive program encodes 4 logical bits to 5 of those hardware bits, and it decodes an entire sector of I think 256 bytes before it reads it to the computer / after it writes it to the computer < 1586711770 408006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, maybe you need to reprogram the floppy drive firmware < 1586711772 863603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it's writable < 1586711775 27298 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but programmers often reprogrammed the floppy drive because the default program in the RAM is very slow, < 1586711782 852244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually figuring out how to write it is probably much harder tohugh < 1586711786 262926 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why there's a lot of practical information on the web about how to reprogram it < 1586711818 867578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if anyone reprogrammed the drive to store 6-bit bytes, or how practical that is, because it's used with 8-bit computers < 1586711895 924149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the PC, you can't change that part of the program, because the floppy controller handles that part of the decoding itself. you can still change some parts of the floppy format, but I believe not the part of how many bits a byte has. < 1586711940 476550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think you can set the serial port of the PC to send and receive 6-bit bytes on a direct serial line, but that doesn't count as storage < 1586711962 423164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: agreed < 1586712005 437811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :setfdprm appears to think in terms of bytes, not bits, so I guess so does Linux < 1586712015 197948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably PC hardware as a whole < 1586712030 752102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess you'd need to do sixbit-to-byte translation in the drive firmware < 1586712233 771764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the Amiga's floppy drive controller can be configured to any word size, that's "only" 30 years old < 1586712423 710017 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1586712659 846696 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Noit o' mnain gelb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70933&oldid=27090 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586712963 414722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: Hmm, looking at your criterion, I did re-discover that one myself in the meantime, with the same idea that ω-like terms are strict. (Pushed a more detailed proof.) < 1586713110 45325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there seem to be philosophical issues about how much data a disk can store < 1586713178 506414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with magnetic disk storage, there are physical limits to how densely you can pack transitions between 0s and 1s, but if you don't have any transitions for a sufficiently long time, it's difficult to read because you don't know where you are on the disk < 1586713206 690135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, e.g., on a CD, every 8-bit byte of data is encoded as 17 bits on the disk < 1586713236 14510 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: I can't claim it's independent... you dropped a couple of hints on the channel. < 1586713241 273074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :CD is rather different from magnetic storage though < 1586713264 4216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, you're right that it's optical rather than magnetic but much the same restrictions apply < 1586713400 418092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :data CD has a lot more error correction codes than floppy disks, apparently mostly to survive scratches of the foil part of the CD < 1586713416 838218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it's newer < 1586713430 392214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, error correction < 1586713442 801439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this leads to the philosophical question about just how large a file is < 1586713470 125796 :ositoblanco!~osito@45.77.207.121 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1586713475 908351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially given that EOF needs to be encoded somehow > 1586713635 339292 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nouse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70934&oldid=34796 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586713699 672641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite crazy just how few error correction old floppy disks have. it's usually just a one or two byte checksum per sector. < 1586713732 321349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the checksum isn't even CRC, it's just a bytewise XOR checksum. wouldn't that lead to corrupted files that aren't detected? < 1586713744 751290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited <-- oh, fancy, there are some prefix codes in there < 1586713794 179412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it wouldn't surprise me if optimal RLL codes /never/ had an integer number of bits per word < 1586713849 347561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, nobody wants to implement an optimal code < 1586713881 898980 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, but they get pretty close. the code that the Commodore floppy uses encodes 4 bits to 5 physical bits, and there are 17 permissable codes for those 5 physical bits, of which 16 are used, IIRC < 1586713891 272606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it'd let you fit more data on your drive < 1586713905 466580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not optimal of course, because an optimal one would need to have much longer segments < 1586713918 352819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some dependency between the adjacent chunks < 1586713931 533444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a non-integer number of bits per word < 1586713939 57167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I think you have dependency that lasts forever < 1586713948 181756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last chunk on the disk might theoretically depend on the first chunk < 1586713958 229895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming a perfect code) < 1586713976 191440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would of course be bad for random-access writes, but might still be useful on a disk intended to be read-only < 1586714081 116765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe tape drives would be better for this than floppy disks < 1586714211 459384 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then you probably want units smaller than a whole disk. (it needn't be as small as the 256 byte sectors of course.) that doesn't lose you much with the encoding density if the chunks aren't too small. < 1586714310 561973 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually the unit should probably be below a sector... to reduce latency. < 1586714328 284587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 byte sector? What hardware is that... < 1586714340 168757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, it could be incrementally decodable < 1586714393 505535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Hmm, not reliably. < 1586714408 509814 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: 256 byte sectors for the default format for the Commodore 1541 floppy drive still, but I think also PC floppy drives in some of the lower density modes < 1586714510 603987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats < 1586714578 628063 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, that page says that PC floppy disk has formats with sector sizes 128, 1024, and 512 bytes. funny. < 1586714609 488056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the first two only for the big floppy disks, so mostly just 512 bytes per sector < 1586714625 809352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the Commodore formats then < 1586714786 487474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1586715248 74256 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i'm glad to hear you find the new rule sound < 1586715553 654559 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the new rule, your BBx.hs will be able to examine all 35-bit terms except for some that follow this pattern: < 1586715559 112060 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :> toughtriples :: DB -> Bool < 1586715559 204115 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :> toughtriples (DBApp (DBLam (DBApp (DBApp (DBVar 0) (DBVar 0)) (DBVar 0))) (DBLam (DBLam (DBApp (DBVar 1) (DBApp (DBVar 1) _)))) ) = True < 1586715559 204169 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :> toughtriples _ = False < 1586715563 724099 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:131: error: < 1586715563 822085 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : parse error on input ‘=’ < 1586715563 921649 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block? < 1586715563 921694 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1586715563 921722 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘DB’ < 1586715565 726272 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:16: error: < 1586715567 744816 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : parse error on input ‘=’ < 1586715569 729180 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block? < 1586715581 461906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: woah, hold your horses < 1586715594 554099 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: this is a good argument against literate Haskell ;) < 1586715597 163639 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so pasting from literate Haskell is not the brightest idea:( < 1586715647 31074 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's terms like (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (???))) < 1586715672 532986 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 _)) < 1586715703 919625 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :including our friend 3^3^3 < 1586715704 510741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh is that the thing that explodes? < 1586715721 112756 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the inscrutable (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) < 1586715723 951026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense, I guess. < 1586715732 613409 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could beat it < 1586715801 532673 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly I may be having a brainfart right now, but I can't figure out one thing < 1586715809 866620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: As far as I can see, the IBM BIOS had no function for querying the sector size... so from some point onwards everybody assumed 512 bytes. < 1586715812 828369 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine an uint of given size < 1586715818 628682 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :note the similarity with the BB 31 recordholder (\1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) < 1586715822 346885 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the PC one, I mean < 1586715838 556368 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if it contains a certain value, and I'll keep subtracting a certain value from it over and over again < 1586715839 371314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: Yeah I noticed the similarity. < 1586715852 933762 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can I determine will it ever reach zero < 1586715888 697614 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :\\2 (2 (1 2)) is the evil twin of \\2 (2 (2 1)) :-) < 1586715892 532796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: check which of the value has more 0 bits at the end. < 1586715917 853242 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 and 3 will finish < 1586715930 273370 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 has more of them < 1586715952 340880 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 and 6 won't finish < 1586715958 419904 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 5 still has more 0 bits at the end < 1586715972 846960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ka = b (mod m) has a solution k if gcd(a, m) divides b. In this case, m is a power of 2, 2^n, and the gcd can be found by looking at the trailing 0 bits. < 1586715978 159387 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: is that for the floppy or for the hard disk? < 1586715984 239214 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes. < 1586715991 199608 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both < 1586716005 758129 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't sector size saved in BPB? < 1586716015 229453 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's ultimately no reason to query BIOS < 1586716045 71585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well having a uniform sector size is certainly convenient for software < 1586716117 653360 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways < 1586716318 664137 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. INT 13 - HARD DISK - PS/1 and newer PS/2 - IDENTIFY DRIVE < 1586716340 211385 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'm confused here. < 1586716385 886376 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Microsoft added extensions to INT 13? One of which allows to query the sector size. < 1586716509 125554 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: But yeah you're right, this is stored in the BPB (which I conveniently forgot about. It has been about 20 years since I actively knew this stuff...). < 1586716533 683298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mistake was to look at INT 13 alone, but there is INT 1E - SYSTEM DATA - DISKETTE PARAMETERS < 1586716549 895527 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1586716553 904649 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you query BIOS < 1586716556 519484 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CMOS contains all this data < 1586716573 528429 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot which registers are they, but I'm 100% sure it contains data you need < 1586716587 397884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, eww. < 1586716603 794351 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The BIOS is there so you don't have to do everything with in/out. :P < 1586716637 618380 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing CMOS is much cooler < 1586716646 783574 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and faster! < 1586716649 926459 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does any modern PC include a programming environment in ROM? I think it ought to do, whether it is BASIC, Forth, or assembly language. This way the computer is usable even without an operating system. < 1586716677 957994 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1586716718 50914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in reality, no it doesn't, unless you count the utilities for flashing a new BIOS. < 1586716788 918112 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can "accidentally" set a BIOS password < 1586716810 187597 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :switch drive geometry around < 1586716819 45693 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :flash AMI/Award/Phoenix BIOS :P < 1586716861 235768 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer a computer in working order. < 1586716878 12496 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a personal preference :P < 1586716892 266235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me rephrase. < 1586716901 102230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may sound extreme, but I prefer a computer in working order. < 1586716906 2442 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1586716928 197637 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I stated that I (may) like my old PC screwed < 1586716930 941551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm okay with it not running and Malbolge code though. < 1586717010 948652 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder could one smh find a vulnerability in the stock Malbolge interpreter < 1586717013 551403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I have fond memories of a particular HDD failure. It was a 70MB MFM drive, no important data left on it (I think)... for which one of the address bits was broken. < 1586717040 482062 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a week ago I ran my malware on an old DOS computer < 1586717042 97460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :checkdsk & co. had a field day with it... and it took me some poking around to figure out just how broken it was :) < 1586717049 790016 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it doesn't boot from any device < 1586717066 606331 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hard disk contents are trashed < 1586717077 450166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mal(bolge soft)ware < 1586717080 983806 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1586717111 595836 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have discovered a piece of code back then that may make CRT monitors explode < 1586717116 934584 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but personally, didn't test it :P < 1586717177 393803 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder would dgx-2 run my chess engine < 1586717178 603854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :capacitors, blue smoke < 1586717188 292209 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in malbolge < 1586717219 507573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You should not be able to blow up the CRT itself. But the high frequency circuit driving the beam... that's an entirely different story.) > 1586717227 502122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nyarlathotep14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70935&oldid=44425 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+24) 10/* External resources */ fixed link < 1586717295 699706 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1586717306 114056 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't miss CRTs, except for one small thing... < 1586717317 843862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...the psychedelic color effects that you could achieve with a magnet. < 1586717320 12499 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank god CRT monitors are gone < 1586717330 724845 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't miss a single thing about them < 1586717348 243384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, that's the only positive thing about them that I can remember :) < 1586717371 907964 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I had a CRT monitor to spare < 1586717373 704763 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody should emulate it in an LCD. ;) < 1586717380 287501 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and balls big enough to test the code < 1586717389 909262 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'd know definitely :p < 1586717404 16092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586717407 992093 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it may explode only the cheapy monitors < 1586717419 539599 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write a fuzzer though < 1586717437 583831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *have* seen a blown up capacitor that was responsible for the horizontal ray alignment in a monitor I used to have. < 1586717450 588693 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The good thing about CRT is that it works OK even if the resolution is wrong. Other than that, I think CRT is not as good as LCD. < 1586717478 774913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I repared that actually... later it totally lost the green beam. That I didn't fix... got a new monitor soon after. < 1586717487 603808 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also X-Rays < 1586717490 10201 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that CRT emits < 1586717500 272651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know that it's not the beam that's colored, obviously.) < 1586717527 790577 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what's the blue smoke < 1586717534 901202 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never had a crt monitor do that < 1586717539 713053 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a capacitor is it? < 1586717547 652778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what specific component burns blue < 1586717552 395512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :capacitor smoke is normally gray, in my experience < 1586717555 847691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the face is typically made of thick lead glass so as to be highly shatter-resistant and to block most X-ray emissions" < 1586717558 309487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although maybe it depends on the type of capacitor < 1586717566 521406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the x-ray was a big issue in practice? < 1586717578 197929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I did not actually see the smoke :) < 1586717596 603296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: re: deleting pages, it can't be done without an administrator verifying the deletion is appropriate/necessary, so that people can't unilaterally delete the history of content < 1586717599 377319 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can make a capacitor out of many things < 1586717607 685663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess blue is kind of the default color for smoke I've never seen myself, for no good reason. < 1586717610 235026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and especially for User talk: pages, which are often used to send people warnings, it's important to maintain a record < 1586717642 496502 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I wouldn't be surprised to see a capacitor emit blue smoke < 1586717644 786315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, if there's no reason not to delete something and it's primarily the work of one person, we normally delete it on request unless there's a reason not to < 1586717665 34306 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my talk page is empty right now, deletion would be a cosmetical change but I don' < 1586717666 957667 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :t really care < 1586717696 396952 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how often it happens that users get warned < 1586717710 983961 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this wiki isn't moderated like very carefully and amount of trolls is moderately low < 1586717721 994594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: haha, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Degauss_in_progress.jpg < 1586717747 535831 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1586717751 70261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(didn't expect to see a picture of that... on Wikipedia) < 1586717761 363711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, it only just crossed my mind that plenty of today's computer users will never have seen a degauss < 1586717769 856514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when I was in school we used to degauss monitors for fun < 1586717779 259735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which was ultimately good for the monitors too, of course) < 1586717812 189610 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see it being performed :P < 1586717823 699324 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when CRT monitors were in use, I was just an average PC user < 1586717830 278161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most monitors of the time period had built-in degauss circuits < 1586717844 77529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all you needed to do is to know which controls on the monitor triggered them < 1586717903 64483 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you do that manually < 1586717913 291312 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when the circuit is not present at all < 1586717926 935535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably need a portable degaussing coil < 1586717930 446059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :held close to the screen < 1586717976 852228 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The picture is lacking the *foom* noise that went with the process though... let's check youtube. < 1586717977 416682 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1586717984 754768 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know such things existed < 1586717998 843383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the noise of a degaussing is quite hard to describe < 1586718005 39374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: apparently they were originally invented for use on warships < 1586718011 308644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they'd have to be scaled down a lot to be used on a CRT monitor < 1586718037 181103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(warships benefit from being degaussed because many automated warship-detection devices used magnetism to do the detection) > 1586718053 48703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07OOo CODE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70936&oldid=50071 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+36) 10/* External resources */ note < 1586718064 965547 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:56 < ais523> back when I was in school we used to degauss monitors for fun < 1586718065 566612 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :same < 1586718072 363706 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when you degaussed one monitor it would slightly mess up the one next to it < 1586718104 945516 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, the Navy had a degaussing station in San Francisco < 1586718111 31942 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still go look at the shack which used to contain it < 1586718310 953192 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says that portable degaussing coils for use on monitors exist, but give no information about what they look like, what shape they are, etc. < 1586718415 166446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it strikes me that maybe ebay will have listings for them < 1586718434 978201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1586718462 932500 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there seem to be multiple different designs, some circular, some more wand-like < 1586718493 307410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy-T6m7F_aQ is similar to what I remember < 1586718504 649019 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(degauss sound) < 1586718528 799148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite expensive nowadays, but that likely makes sense, I imagine there's not much call to manufacture new ones, so the supply will reduce faster than the demand < 1586718693 243512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we first had TFT monitors, I liked CRTs because they had more vivid colors. but TFT monitors have improved since. < 1586718723 603865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and CRTs have other drawbacks, like a less sharp image and often flickering unless you drive it on a very high refresh rate < 1586718790 319067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRTs often have lots of unnecessary additional circuitry for marketing reasons that slows their response time < 1586718797 758300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* TFTs, and later OLEDs < 1586718804 550567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the CRTs that typically don't < 1586718834 118590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what technology modern screens typically use < 1586718840 463735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think TFT is outdated by now < 1586718895 491207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe not, it was apparently used almost universally in 2013 but I can't find newer dat < 1586718897 2528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*data < 1586718925 256630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: "deletion would be a cosmetical change" => it got deleted hours ago I think < 1586718959 827649 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see now < 1586718984 25697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "(warships benefit from being degaussed because many automated warship-detection devices used magnetism to do the detection)" => interesting, I didn't know this < 1586718998 444365 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586719026 227796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, aparently OLEDs didn't catch on due to having a few issues that were hard to work around < 1586719030 318805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably we still use TFT variants < 1586719032 790331 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the TFT part is still up-to-date (as far as LCD displays are concerned); what has changed are the mechanisms by which the liquid crystals affect the light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin-film-transistor_liquid-crystal_display has a list. TN is traditional, IPS is probably most common < 1586719085 538801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are weird points in the comparison, e.g. OLEDs use less power than TFTs to display black, but more to display white < 1586719109 155084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so which is more efficient depends on what images are being viewed < 1586719182 150409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that's because they use these stupid heuristics where if the image is mostly dark, they turn the brighness of the leds down, which makes sense for stuff like TV films, but less for a computer interface. You can't really do with the fluorescent back lighting that traditional TFTs use. < 1586719196 12835 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, they use more power to display white? how? < 1586719248 771423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't LEDs automatically take half or a third of the power of the most efficient non-LED lighting because they are more narrow spectrum, it's just that they also have worse spectrum which is annoying < 1586719257 477832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the lighting on a TFT is also LED, though < 1586719266 488033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe OLEDs draw more power than regular LEDs < 1586719296 225776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, TFTs use white LEDs for their backlighting < 1586719301 699555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas an OLED uses a mix of red/green/blue < 1586719304 887169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may well make a difference < 1586719314 912538 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1586719333 107879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I miss being able to use computer monitors with the backlight off < 1586719336 327101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but aren't white leds also a mix of different colored leds? < 1586719339 491345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was never very practical, but it was sort-of doable < 1586719343 473152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magic part is the blue leds < 1586719344 658983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: two rather than three (blue + orange) < 1586719359 938079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they still are worse in blue than other light sources < 1586719367 166352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1586719369 246477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my older laptops, with the backlight off the monitor worked just fine in direct sunlight < 1586719376 506856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you had to turn it back on again in dimmer lighting conditions) < 1586719380 619964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that a color monitor? < 1586719384 839078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes > 1586719389 469134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Object oriented thue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70937&oldid=54004 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-22) 10/* External resources */ fixed link < 1586719401 783144 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you just need a sufficiently reflective back surface i'd guess < 1586719406 601624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION visualises a CRT laptop
< 1586719418 68215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are "portable computers" with CRT < 1586719421 852227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they made sense back then < 1586719429 232983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the word "luggable" is often used for those < 1586719431 109047 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather small CRTs, mind you < 1586719436 913732 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :careful, your neck might collapse under the strain > 1586719472 58520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02Object oriented thue10]] to [[Object oriented Thue]]: fix capitalization > 1586719472 147692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02Talk:Object oriented thue10]] to [[Talk:Object oriented Thue]]: fix capitalization < 1586719481 517386 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the limits on the geometry of a CRT like anyway < 1586719500 150065 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :like there's obviously a maximum practical angle on the cone but idk what constrains it < 1586719559 939717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get the deflection of the beam (which is what moves it within the cone) you need huge voltages < 1586719581 159744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the greater the deflection angle, the more accurate you have to be < 1586719585 670415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1586719636 512180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're trying to rapidly change the voltage on the deflector coils to a sequence of accurate, very high values, very rapidly < 1586719649 819114 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's not very easy to do < 1586719674 631565 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially given the deflector coils are presumably inductors < 1586719694 366390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1586719717 711101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in this case the back-emf is basically only a problem during power on and power off, and maybe hblank < 1586719745 819796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're changing the value in a set pattern and can allow for the inductance in advance < 1586719765 754247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, during hblank, the beam is turned off so it doesn't matter if the voltage doesn't change instantly or linearly) < 1586719851 560764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a typical TV's deflector coils would be in the 1-10 kilovolt range < 1586719855 519061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED#Efficiency_of_blue_OLEDs is one ingredient to the power efficiency puzzle < 1586719981 49436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another, probably smaller, part is that perhaps there's more loss due to resistance between power supply and the actual LEDs. (All the energy emitted by the display has to be transported to some individual pixel, whereas for LCDs only a comparatively smaller power for driving the crystals plus the transistor has to be pushed to individual puzzles.) < 1586719998 129611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, according to Wikipedia, there are such things as CRT printers < 1586720004 848962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1586720009 598743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they electrostatically charged the paper < 1586720015 730695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the absence of efficient blue OLEDs seems more significant. < 1586720015 974430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it was placed next to electrostatically charged ink < 1586720017 570881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a laser printer < 1586720029 422162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fun. < 1586720032 563185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but with beta radiation, not electromagnetic radiation < 1586720044 487471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess is the fundamental difference < 1586720061 945429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a laser printer electrostatically charges the paper, then discharges it with a laser beam anywhere where it wants to leave that white, then puts the paper next to the toner casette so it electrostatically attracts black ink < 1586720073 520379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1586720087 808078 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds rather impractical < 1586720091 304670 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: isn't it the drum that's being charged and discharged < 1586720097 870457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well it was abandoned in the 1960s < 1586720101 469399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably it was actually impractical < 1586720112 416568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't really know < 1586720121 839680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then it took a while to discover the practical computer technologies, so they had to make do with eso computers until they found a practical way to do things < 1586720122 520958 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :superceded by better technology. < 1586720132 806237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use this nonsense as a customer < 1586720148 862070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm pretty sure it's the drum... otherwise buying the right paper for a laser printer would be a huge hassle. < 1586720166 461360 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: why? ordinary paper can be charge electrostatically < 1586720184 235927 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :crt printer still seems less out there than using crt for main memory which was totally mainstream for a while < 1586720192 41408 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-48-139.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no "c" in "supersedes"; even the specification for netnews articles says there is no "c" in "supersedes". < 1586720210 510871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: charged and discharged reliably at 600 dpi? < 1586720231 193467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you have to realise just how terrible the available read/write memory technologies were in the 1940s < 1586720237 735493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: only discharged at that resolution, they're charged uniformly < 1586720248 386127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were no good options, so all the bad options were explored quite comprehensively < 1586720250 440413 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i know about mercury delay lines so im well aware < 1586720259 680320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I can't refute the idea, but I'm pretty sure it's the drum... which is a more or less fixed part of the printer so much easier to control anyway :P < 1586720266 195526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when magnetic core memory was invented in 1955 it was a huge relief to everyone < 1586720274 622433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even though it's /still/ a terrible storage technology by modern standards) < 1586720288 393552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no surprise, because SRAM became practical only with integrated circuits < 1586720311 464872 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it required at least the transistor one assumes < 1586720328 411892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :was there a period where using discrete transistors for RAM was practical actually...? < 1586720345 74911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an old book about computers which is post-transistor but pre-integrated-circuit < 1586720367 618938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it talks about the use of transistors for logic, and also for amplification (for use in analog computers) < 1586720387 469367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but assumes magnetic core as the only practical memory technology for storing large amounts of read/write data < 1586720410 561388 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: only? doesn't it assume magnetic disks are available for that? < 1586720424 740686 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know they're not random accessible < 1586720429 689878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: disks? no < 1586720435 866892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if magnetic tape had been invented at the time < 1586720442 23258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but disks are way newer than the book < 1586720446 102917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, pre-integrated-circuit < 1586720455 742344 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must be really old < 1586720465 416459 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh more crazy old memory devices... https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/williams_kilburn_williams_kilburn_ram.html < 1586720468 422890 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i legit didn't know tape was still widely used until i heard about it in training for my current job < 1586720480 979534 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is honestly somewhat surprising given how much general reading i do < 1586720492 414647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's _optical_ tape that's currently widely used, for high capacity backups < 1586720501 603925 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :magnetic tapes are no longer widely used < 1586720506 649219 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :sceptical < 1586720508 835463 :nona!9db570ae@client-112-174.eduroam.elte.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1586720537 451696 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> object oriented thue < 1586720540 162063 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1586720540 269847 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Variable not in scope: object :: t0 -> t1 -> terror: Variable not in sco... < 1586720543 655977 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh boy, what is it now < 1586720549 551458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tapes are where the magneto-optical recording technology went, isn't it < 1586720549 597725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :magnetic tape was still widely used for backups fairly recently < 1586720550 348634 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think magnetic takes ever worked really well for digital data; they were used for analog data as in voice or video because the hardware is cheap, but the tape degraded too quickly < 1586720556 574744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh ok < 1586720567 209639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure whether people would use "tar" for communicating with it, though!) < 1586720570 865416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'm just wrong < 1586720585 187683 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is amazing, but isn't it like < 1586720587 580462 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i think they're still the standard bulk archive medium in industry < 1586720597 902301 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a P/L is nondeterministic it's not the best idea to let it allow filesystem and stuff < 1586720625 281296 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :thue is only nondeterministic if you let it < 1586720643 227478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get annoyed because most people interpret Thue's "nondeterministic" as "probabilistic" < 1586720653 622214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I'm pretty sure it's nondeterministic in the CS theory sense, like a nondeterministic finite automaton < 1586720671 347913 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read it as 'the choice of substitution is implementation-defined' < 1586720673 617443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that most existing Thue interps don't actually interpret it properly < 1586720708 951340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I think it's nondeterministic in the third sense, which is that the behavior is underspecified, interpreters choose whatever is the most convenient for them < 1586720712 226488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : MIT wanted to charge IBM $0.02 per bit royalty on core memory. < 1586720719 254426 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm v much with b here < 1586720735 58094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, bear in mind that semi-Thue grammars were intended as a computational model < 1586720735 307867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the sense where it's probabilistic, nor in the sense where they theoretically find the one succeeding path among exponentially many failing paths < 1586720750 94148 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thue spec doesnt talk about that kind of branching execution anywhere, it's the parsimonious reading < 1586720767 878001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: having worked in rewriting, I agree with what b_jonas said < 1586720773 158255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to imagine where computer memories would be today if the royalty payments were 2¢ per bit < 1586720793 763984 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :also NFA semantics are kind of defined in terms of a machine accepting a language which makes no sense given thue's semantics < 1586720803 287094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why confluence is held in such high regard in the field because it largely says that the reduction strategy doesn't matter. (modulo non-termination issues) < 1586720813 968129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a modern computer would cost 80 billion dollars just in memory royalty payments alone < 1586720821 658825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although maybe people would write more memory-efficient programs!) < 1586720838 839840 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But maybe you'd also have a paycheck of corresponding size :P < 1586720861 3833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you think the problem would be solved using hyperinflation? that's ingenious, but would likely bring its own problems < 1586720910 746004 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of the currency is indexed against the bit < 1586720915 194652 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the true bitcoin < 1586720921 729340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: <3 < 1586720942 601669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's But is it art that is nondeterministic in the theoretical CS < 1586721011 860620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes BIIA? is CS-theory-nondeterministic < 1586721020 899876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other languages like that < 1586721040 372566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most notably https://esolangs.org/wiki/Precognition, which I feel would be used much more if only I or someone else put in the necessary thought and time to implement it < 1586721062 186691 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't that a patent royalty though, with the patent expiring in like 20 years? < 1586721070 138922 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Let's make that a love parade: ☙♡♥❣❤❥❦❧🂱🎔💓💔💕💖💗💘💞🖤😍 < 1586721100 391904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: assume the lawyers could figure out some way to extend it :-D < 1586721110 365252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that isn't legally meant to be possible, but patent law is a mess) < 1586721126 37946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could extend it to 30 years. that'd still have expired 30 years ago. < 1586721154 514540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way to extend it is to make an improved version so people use that instead of the original one, right? < 1586721176 63724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like they could patent DRAM < 1586721197 963411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe patent different variants of DRAM < 1586721213 181236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :patent the version with the sense/inhibit wires combined < 1586721216 127102 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only of course IBM didn't come up with those < 1586721218 696829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only when the first patent is running out < 1586721251 14165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( degauss your core ) < 1586721307 888687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that would basically just delete the entirety of memory, wouldn't it? < 1586721310 284816 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, its fucked up how there are like 1000 heart emojis but 0 emojis aboutr the boys being back in town < 1586721315 835773 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though wait, isn't most of the RAM made in China these days, and patents don't work there? < 1586721316 307244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :replacing its contents with ½ bits (which are somewhere between 0 bits and 1 bits) < 1586721329 456677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's a cruel world < 1586721343 908588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unclear what happens when a digital memory controller reads a memory cell with a value of ½ < 1586721346 248215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: of course they work if they want to sell the stuff abroad < 1586721360 35727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it would be interpreted as either 0 or 1, but whether this is deterministic or not depends on the exact details of the circuitry, I expect < 1586721362 83968 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: China is now patenting more than the US though :P < 1586721373 816155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the question is not how much they're patenting < 1586721378 311796 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is how patents are enforced < 1586721394 716668 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :now im no expert but i believe quantum computing is basically when all your bits split in half and they tell you the prime factors of everyones private keys < 1586721443 320668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ask the WIPO. < 1586721468 230510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the WIPO? < 1586721470 441678 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? WIPO < 1586721472 648308 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIPO? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1586721478 228332 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You didn't have to elaborate after "im no expert" ;) < 1586721506 454135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :World "Intellectual Property" Organization < 1586721512 787399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1586721515 151109 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think they prefer it without the quotes) < 1586721533 482834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can put the quotes in other places too < 1586721539 474078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"World" Intellectual Property Organization < 1586721544 386925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :World Intellectual Property "Organization" < 1586721544 547779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ yes, because of China < 1586721549 537232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are probably less accurate, but it's fun < 1586721559 621030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I like the former < 1586721579 635634 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :world "intellectual" property organisation < 1586721590 447546 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :these frauds couldnt tell their picassos from their nabokovs < 1586721604 493620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :World Intellectual "Property" Organization works too in some sense < 1586721610 370889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because it is about the so-called "developed countries" exploiting the so-called "developing countries" < 1586721613 412660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1586721772 818253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: where are you? < 1586721862 725352 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a guy has inboxed me a few minutes ago < 1586721870 690613 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's made a proof-of-concept asm2bf IDE < 1586721899 592010 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with language server, linter, syntax checking, formatter, syntax highlighting and code completion < 1586721908 148485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"inbox, v. ???" < 1586721921 306200 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's getting hillariously serious by now < 1586721944 542063 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Don't blame Hillary for that one ) < 1586722003 80134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many brainfuck IDEs the world needs < 1586722010 540781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esotericide is probably enough by itself < 1586722021 624115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now there's another one? < 1586722036 731276 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: so this like plugs into MS visual studio? < 1586722043 524299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Eclipse or whatever? < 1586722050 258978 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :standalone IDE < 1586722052 258236 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminal-based < 1586722116 356577 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: did you find Chaitin's thesis online? < 1586722133 512393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: not recently < 1586722221 802955 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like IDE plugins since some time now. A major IDE is usually well-debugged, functional etc., and to write it all from scratch? oh no. And usually the support for this or that language needs not as much work, for it to be done with quality, if writing it as a plugin for an existing IDE < 1586722226 421619 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv < 1586722229 775465 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :the programs on https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/ are not accompanied by the theorems they're proving < 1586722239 111767 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn’t written any plugins yet, though < 1586722246 598959 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586722291 264838 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: the statements are in the notes. < 1586722303 805637 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all very much preliminary < 1586722322 776933 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:50f3:115d:996a:2dbb PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1586722446 844329 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv, a language server makes it easy to plug asm2bf to vscode for instance < 1586722536 843268 :nona!9db570ae@client-112-174.eduroam.elte.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586722638 770173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: I seriously looked into VS Code's language server / plugin architecture < 1586722641 683826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it < 1586722656 1699 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use VSCode, problem solved < 1586722662 911006 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meme made by Vim gang < 1586722691 121867 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I really do like the idea of having a standard for communication between editors and programming language implementations < 1586722702 654630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just really don't like the details of the Language Server Protocol < 1586722712 668131 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need key combinations to pilot a car. this post was made by the nano gang. < 1586722735 421819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the existence of a current standard that's bad is really frustrating, because it reduces the chance of getting a good standard (because you don't want two standards coexisting) < 1586722913 251902 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1586722938 956067 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediocre is the enemy of good? < 1586722960 860655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It seriously is. I wonder whether it's something people commonly say.) < 1586723014 173003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: people say it both ways < 1586723035 72793 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 JOIN :#esoteric < 1586723035 195959 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@82.27.195.88 QUIT :Changing host < 1586723035 195997 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586723048 187907 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know the "perfect is the enemy of good" version is a thing. < 1586723072 760587 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1586723080 163638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :every Language Server Protocol message must be prefixed by "Content-Length:", then a decimal number indicating the length, then two \r\n pairs, then a JSON object which contains the key/value pair "jsonrpc": "2.0" < 1586723098 111966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a crazy amount of overhead for every single message, much of it redundant < 1586723133 401952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this is the first time I've seen a string format which is somehow delimited and length-prefixed at the same time (the delimiter used to determine where the length ends) < 1586723144 530871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it specify a maximum length of the first line? < 1586723169 329685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1586723186 994268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is there a theoretical maximum length, because JSON allows arbitrary amounts of whitespace < 1586723188 707279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Content-Length: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000...0000000000000000042\r\n < 1586723207 83895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, or that :-D < 1586723212 654090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how VS Code would react to that < 1586723214 234645 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, there are HTTP clients that have bugs with stuff like that < 1586723228 570665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: color me unsurprised < 1586723248 25471 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric ::((( I hoped VS Code would be better than this, ow < 1586723256 45023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: this isn't even the worst bit < 1586723260 108112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what the worst bit was < 1586723267 705859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and am unsure whether I should keep reading the specification to rediscover it < 1586723271 803318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like they receive FFFFFFFFFF\r\n for chunked encoding chunk header, and they try to allocate terabytes of memory and crash < 1586723274 71918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe < 1586723341 947013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I hope what's inside is actuall a json-rpc message at least. < 1586723367 759146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's a compatible format, so yes < 1586723381 827789 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which mandates that version field) < 1586723391 758234 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://dailyvoice.com/new-jersey/mercer/obituaries/covid-19-kills-renowned-princeton-mathematician-game-of-life-inventor-john-conway-in-3-days/786461/ < 1586723392 681719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it uses a subset of json-rpc, but defines the API in such a way that the remaining functionality could never be used) < 1586723411 267796 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wikipedia considers this source sufficient) < 1586723423 609779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: ouch < 1586723461 571226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP John H Conway < 1586723478 937261 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been confirmed? damn.. < 1586723483 736976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: still based on the tweets we've already seen it seems > 1586723523 159948 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Omnifuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70942&oldid=44612 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586723531 653680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :another great Mathematician lost after Jiří Matoušek, Marvin Minsky, and Raymond Smullyan < 1586723550 96930 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :man fuck it was covid too? < 1586723557 692250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Well, there's a tweet by a Princeton guy who presumably has first-hand information, so there isn't too much doubt. < 1586723595 536356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: But the article does not indicate any information beyond that. < 1586723601 808014 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it turns out to be the same thing as 2015 it's gonna be hilarious. < 1586723615 710074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm expecting an update at https://www.math.princeton.edu/ next week. < 1586723617 376415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened in 2015? < 1586723631 57881 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :his death was reported, and he was like "uh, I'm still here." < 1586723645 535365 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc. < 1586723654 864431 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that was April 1st. < 1586723665 404231 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. forgot the date. < 1586723670 775410 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, not during a pandemic < 1586723676 171385 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor Conway :( < 1586723676 553205 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't really see how an obituary could've appeared with details like him getting a fever and dying in 3 days without being deliberately made up whole cloth < 1586723722 762136 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait lol this means he was about the same age as kenny rogers < 1586723729 160407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the first story of covid-19 killing old people quickly (and without severe symptoms) that I've read these days. < 1586723752 133840 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder what secrets he kept in his head. < 1586723779 792052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I hope this story is made up, at least; jokes in bad taste are bad, but people dying is worse < 1586723808 135688 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's starting to get harder to deny that he's dead. here's hoping he's not and we have a laugh about it. < 1586723811 247894 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would more or less write off that chance tbh < 1586723825 274358 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean people die anyway, especially when they're 81 < 1586723844 572952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ordinary people. not ones like Conway. < 1586723852 781421 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: maybe whether the Euler—Mascheroni γ is rational or not < 1586723861 887451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 82 acturally < 1586723875 66745 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rrrrrally. < 1586723890 877489 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rrrrrrrr < 1586723904 415254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :81 would have been smoother < 1586723969 400725 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah that is 82 < 1586724083 642739 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586724175 84326 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1586724217 993667 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1586725570 756274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02Owhelgossip10]] to [[OwhelGossip]]: fix capitalization > 1586725570 899388 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02Talk:Owhelgossip10]] to [[Talk:OwhelGossip]]: fix capitalization > 1586725808 113808 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Indent14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70947 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4914) 10Named after function blocks > 1586725811 296023 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70948&oldid=70928 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2354) 10this language? > 1586725862 735095 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70949&oldid=70917 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* Languages */ > 1586725885 353186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70950&oldid=70881 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* I */ Indent < 1586726257 795056 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.177.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1586727317 338877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Owl14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70951&oldid=55994 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title > 1586727416 559978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07OwoScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70952&oldid=60044 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586727535 421824 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1586727687 323880 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07P14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70953&oldid=11661 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+38) 10/* External resources */ fixed link < 1586727720 8346 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1586727723 332321 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1586728161 382821 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PHL 1.014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70954&oldid=53786 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+78) 10fixed links > 1586729287 367044 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* 10moved [[02Pac10]] to [[PAC]]: fix capitalization < 1586729734 719511 :LKoen!~LKoen@lstlambert-657-1-123-43.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1586730104 354040 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric > 1586730215 529442 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Parenthetic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70957&oldid=32099 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+0) 10fixed capitalization based on repo < 1586730354 354666 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1586730483 931028 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1586730514 155868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/life-2 SMBC did an obituary strip already < 1586730524 794074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll see what xkcd posts a day from now < 1586731655 743742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4732 obituary by Scott Aaronson < 1586731944 812472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :comments section has reactions by other people < 1586731971 441683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/john-conway/ > 1586732255 145108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pile.js14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70958&oldid=46341 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+14) 10fixed title < 1586732969 483912 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1586733062 272451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-50.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we do something to https://esolangs.org/wiki/John_Horton_Conway ? < 1586733488 867737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the obvious is -> was. < 1586733663 991342 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sad < 1586733698 960464 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP :( < 1586734061 223143 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) is not a winner, it has a normal form of size 4186155666, which the reduction engine in the blc tool can actually compute in a few minutes. < 1586734125 708036 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 3^27 / 4186155666 < 1586734128 402246 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1821.6230100858843 < 1586734154 747955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (6*3^27+5) / 4186155666 -- small margin < 1586734157 480954 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 10929.7380605165 < 1586734164 476625 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1586734171 288467 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (5*3^27+6) / 4186155666 < 1586734173 541328 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 9108.115050430855 < 1586734283 300565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp: which is disappointing because I spent quite some effort on working with smaller terms, only to find that it was all manageable from the outset. > 1586734311 845594 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HaltJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70959&oldid=69384 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10 > 1586734339 569681 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70960&oldid=70949 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10 > 1586734385 342047 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70961&oldid=70950 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* H */ < 1586734417 999061 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1586735597 482359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointer-ng14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70962&oldid=45230 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+20) 10fixed title