00:24:04 <zzo38> How many points you earn in the BSD boggle game?
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02:25:11 <zzo38> Now I added the temperature in the status window
02:25:31 <zzo38> Now it includes: temperature, mail, system load average, memory usage, and date/time.
02:33:31 <zzo38> PostgreSQL supports ORDER BY in non-window aggregate functions, and is something I wanted to have in SQLite too, since it is useful with some aggregate functions. If ORDER BY can be used in non-window aggregate functions, then FIRST_VALUE, LAST_VALUE, and NTH_VALUE should also be usable as aggregate functions, too.
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05:19:02 <zzo38> (dup == =)?dup == =
05:19:15 <zzo38> You must put a line break in place of the question mark.
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06:06:28 <zzo38> Do you like Solar Hijri calendar?
07:09:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Does your version of curl have the double-EOF bug fix yet?
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08:09:16 <esowiki> [[Happy Fantasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71415&oldid=71359 * Hakerh400 * (+3)
08:14:36 <esowiki> [[Gummy Bear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71416&oldid=71327 * Hakerh400 * (+11) /* Output */
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12:14:38 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71417&oldid=71379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Languages */
12:22:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71418&oldid=71414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+665)
12:59:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71419&oldid=69337 * YamTokTpaFa * (+434) /* I think I have proven A14!4 to be Turing-complete. */ new section
13:00:18 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it probably does, if I remember right what the bug was. At least a single EOF on stdin is enough when pasting to ix.io.
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14:32:28 <arseniiv> Zuma-themed impossible(?) puzzle: suppose you have N types of balls and an endless sequence Z → {1, ..., N} of them, such that a ball at each position is picked uniformly at random independent of all others. You can insert a ball of your choice between the 0th and 1st places in this sequence, and then if that makes a sequence of 3 or more balls of the same kind, they vanish, the sequence collapses and the same check (are there 3 or mo
14:32:29 <arseniiv> re balls of the same kind at the cut position) happens again and again if necessary. What is the mean count of vanishes? vanished balls?
14:34:51 <int-e> why is that a function from Z, not N?
14:35:13 <arseniiv> at first I thought to allow placing a ball at any position, but I think this would make the problem ill-posed: I’d suppose there would be a possibility to make any count of vanishes but obviously not an infinite one
14:35:48 <int-e> The problem with using Z being that you have to specify what happens to the indices after removal
14:37:15 <arseniiv> int-e: two one-sided subsequences after the cut should then concatenate back
14:37:56 <arseniiv> and as in this case we remember the position of the cut point, we could put zeroth index anywhere we like
14:40:17 <int-e> Ah I misunderstood...
14:40:56 <int-e> so if you have 1122 and place a ball in the middle, you get two choices... which one do you pick?
14:41:12 <arseniiv> about N instead of Z: hmm I think that wouldn’t be neat enough; in the game if you happen to remove balls from the end of the chain, and there is a cluster of ≥3 balls right near them, that cluster won’t wanish, but in this formulation it would (and if it wouldn’t, that would be a boring setting)
14:42:11 <int-e> it's okay, I though it would collapse once and then you'd get to pick another ball
14:42:24 <int-e> I didn't read properly
14:42:49 <int-e> *thought (nor type, apparently.)
14:43:16 <arseniiv> <int-e> so if you have 1122 and place a ball in the middle, you get two choices... which one do you pick? => hm well maybe then we should first consider the setting where the ball is picked randomly not by us, and again uniformly of course
14:43:41 <int-e> so basically... don't place any ball at all
14:44:03 <arseniiv> also I think I word such questions in not the most understandable way too
14:44:30 <int-e> "also I think...": I think you phrased that concern perfectly.
14:45:20 <arseniiv> maybe I should name things more often
14:45:53 <arseniiv> so I would backlink to them instead of using ambiguous anaphoric pronouns
14:46:48 <int-e> But hmm. The first collapse is special, but after that we're always faced with a random sequence that has a 1/(N-1) chance of equal balls in the middle instead of 1/N. So this should be quite feasible.
14:48:53 <arseniiv> don’t forget we need more than two, so we can’t just compare the ends
14:49:40 <int-e> Oh sure but that's not a huge deal.
14:50:10 <arseniiv> btw I have no solution to this, of course. I wanted to announce I won the main game mode in Zuma’s Revenge, but then I thought: wait, that can be made more on-topic
14:50:19 <int-e> The probability that the first collapse happens should be (1 + (N-1)/N + (N-1)^2/N^2)/N^3, and for subsequent collapses it's (1 + (N-1)/N + (N-1)^2/N^2)/((N-1)N^2) instead.
14:50:51 <arseniiv> I hoped I’d come up with something less tractable :D
14:52:11 <int-e> full notes ;-) http://paste.debian.net/1142975/
14:52:30 <int-e> Oh wait, that's for four.
14:52:58 <int-e> So the probabilities should be (1 + (N-1)/N)/N^2 and (1 + (N-1)/N)/((N-1)N) instead.
14:53:55 <int-e> `? fencepost blaming
14:53:58 <HackEso> fencepost blaming? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:56:46 <int-e> Basically two things happen here: a) rather than looking at the colors, look at whether adjacent balls have the same color b) after a collapse, there are only N-1 possible colors for the two adjacent balls, but otherwise they are still uniformly random. So the probability of equality increases to the aforementioned 1/(N-1) instead of 1/N at that one place.
14:59:18 <int-e> (2n^2 - 3n + 1)/(n^4 - n^3 - 2n^2 + n) <-- look at this beauty (is it correct? who knows. it might be.)
15:00:16 <int-e> that's for the expected number of collapses
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15:03:39 <int-e> Funny, we cannot simply multiply that by 1 + 2/(1-1/n) to get the expected number of balls removed, because only one of the two cases captured in (1 + (N-1)/N)/N^2 can be extended to both sides.
15:03:51 <int-e> (I'm mixing capital and lower case n, sorry.)
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15:06:27 <int-e> I prefer the lower case one, honestly, reserving the upper case one for the natural numbers.
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15:11:28 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah I forgot there would be conflation in ASCII
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15:12:34 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
15:12:47 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
15:12:59 <arseniiv> (and ℕ renders poorly in my client, and it’s 5 keypresses to input with my AHK script, so I almost never use it)
15:13:01 <int-e> myndzi is still broken it seems
15:14:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 251450Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW060 SCT070 BKN100 21/04 Q1007 NOSIG
15:19:02 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71420&oldid=71418 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+259) /* Functions */
15:20:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71421&oldid=71380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* F */ add [[function x(y)]]
15:29:19 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71422&oldid=70490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+358) /* Packlang */
15:32:37 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71423&oldid=71422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+192) /* Stackint */
15:33:30 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71424&oldid=71417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Languages */
15:42:21 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71425&oldid=71423 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1361) /* PlusOrMinus */
15:42:47 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71426&oldid=70739 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1380) /* Resources */
15:43:34 <esowiki> [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71427&oldid=71426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) /* Resources */
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16:51:34 <arseniiv> I just placed a couple of GEL in a looped world in The Powder Toy and watch it fall
16:55:11 <arseniiv> poor little Tron particles don’t know they could wrap around and insted they keep crashing into gel >:D
16:56:38 <int-e> arseniiv: heh I wonder whether you'd like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23AY8Kdx00 (especially after the 1:40 mark)
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17:02:19 <Sgeo> I just saw a captcha that involved arranging puzzle pieces (on dreamviews.com). Apparently from KeyCAPTCHA
17:20:38 <imode> I see a lot of people praising Forth for its ease in implementation (almost to the level of occult worship), but I wonder if Tcl (or a similar language) would be a contender for ease of implementation.
17:20:44 <arseniiv> int-e: awhile ago, after several tries I got how to make a hard caramel succesfully, including unsticking it from the surface when it’s cold (I pour it onto baking paper) and now rarely I make some and crush it into small pieces to use instead of sugar for tea or something. I like it’s like a real glass and maybe it can be glassblowed (I hadn’t tried) and it would be cool. Hm I’ll google that, maybe someone had done that already
17:21:51 <arseniiv> imode: due to code quotes? (Though I don’t know almost a thing about Tcl)
17:22:25 <imode> arseniiv: mostly due to the fact that, at its base, it's just a list of commands that's specially formatted.
17:22:39 <pikhq> I think Forth may be _easier_ than Tcl, but a Tcl implementation is not especially difficult.
17:23:29 <pikhq> http://oldblog.antirez.com/post/picol.html Like, this is a reasonably straightforward and functional Tcl implementation in 550 lines of reasonably natural C code.
17:23:40 <arseniiv> how about a really bare-bones Scheme?
17:23:57 <imode> on the gradient of "I can hack this up in less than a day" to "This is a multi-month project", I see Tcl as sitting a bit to the left above Forth. it's slightly more complex due to quoting.
17:24:27 <pikhq> Yeah, that seems about right.
17:24:43 <pikhq> It's not literally the easiest but nor is it that difficult, as far as these things go.
17:24:43 <arseniiv> I don’t particularly like concatenative languages without quoting though. It’s hard to go without when you taste it
17:25:08 <imode> I don't mind them. honestly all I really care about is implementation simplicity.
17:25:36 <imode> you can write good abstractions and tools in just about any language, but it takes more work in some than others.
17:25:51 <imode> I can write good concatenative code without quotes.
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17:28:16 <imode> it makes me wonder if there's some middleground between Tcl and Forth, without excess quoting and tokenization rules.
17:30:20 <arseniiv> Q-BASIC^W I’ll show myself out
17:30:32 <imode> that picol interpreter, for example, is like 2x what I'd consider reasonable.
17:32:44 <imode> I wish I could turn Modal into something useful. it's deceptively simple.
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17:48:49 <b_jonas> pikhq, imode: there's a forth implementation on IOCCC (admittedly not within the size limit, but with a small external library over an interpreter), but no Tcl in IOCCC
17:51:29 <imode> b_jonas: I remember reading that when digging into Forth for the first time.
17:53:07 <imode> there has got to be other "no-parse" languages out there, right?
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18:16:03 <arseniiv> I try to win over The Powder Toy by making graphical designs out of experiments in it
18:16:19 <arseniiv> though I’ve yet to use any of them
18:18:01 <arseniiv> for example https://i.postimg.cc/G2v813Sn/traced-powdertoy.png
18:18:20 <arseniiv> but that was thoroughly edited in Inkscape
18:25:04 <arseniiv> also if someone knows Verve Painter by Taron (hope I remember names correctly), there is a rotating canvas mode which is neeeaaat. Even if you don’t know anything about drawing, it amounts to some great things
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19:47:25 <zzo38> I found this comment in some text mentioning tarot cards: "The Fool is given the number 0 in the Trumps, and as a C programmer from a long time back I love any 0-indexed array."
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19:51:21 <zzo38> While in many decks the Fool is numbered zero, that isn't it's value. I have been told before why it is numbered zero (I asked them why), they said it represents the beginning of a journey, which I suppose I can see. Although depending on the game, its value may either be the XXII of trumps, or it may have an entirely different meaning (you can play it even if you would otherwise be required to follow suit, but it always loses the tric
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19:55:45 <zzo38> I had ideas about tarot poker, where the Fool (or Excuse) counts as both 0 and XXII, similar to the ace in the ordinary poker.
20:07:29 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71428&oldid=71420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220)
20:09:41 <zzo38> I have thought of some ideas about tarot poker. Trumps could sometimes be treated as their own suit, and sometimes as cards of the same rank of any of the other suits (including cards that do not exist), so that you can have a "mixed flush" and "mixed straight flush", in addition to a "pure flush" and "pure straight flush". Five of a kind is also possible.
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21:45:35 <orbitaldecay> int-e: making interesting progress on that combinator stuff https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators
21:45:49 <orbitaldecay> Switched to using infix + to denote the binary operations which has made it much easier to read
21:46:57 <orbitaldecay> In particular, https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators#Associative_and_commutative_examples is interesting
21:50:43 <int-e> that postfix notation...
21:51:13 <int-e> (I've used Unlambda. This messes up my brain.)
21:51:56 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, the interpreter I wrote uses postfix, which is why I keep switching
21:52:38 <orbitaldecay> But I've started using infix for the most part in the wiki with + representing my custom binary functions and * representing application
21:52:52 <int-e> But this is moving the goalpost from {S,K} and any kind of TC-ness.
21:53:21 <orbitaldecay> Just trying to get a feel for what associative and commutative <C,+> look like
21:53:30 <orbitaldecay> with the ultimate objective of going back to TC-ness
21:53:32 <int-e> You can /represent/ a lot of algebraic structures, obviously. And yes, Booleans are perhaps the most natural.
21:54:20 <orbitaldecay> Yeah, I was thinking about that today that with a little work it would be easy enough to construct a <C,+> of the natural numbers using church numerals, but it wouldn't bring me any closer to what I'm going for
21:55:12 <int-e> Also, I'm already fairly familiar with programming lambda calculus (and, by extension, Combinatory Logic) so you should not feel bad if none of this surprises me.
21:55:37 <orbitaldecay> Also remembered that if <C,+> is generated by n elements and contains m elements then the associativity test is nm^2 rather than m^3
21:55:50 <orbitaldecay> haha, thanks. I've only had a few cursory passes with it. learning as I gol
21:56:26 <orbitaldecay> Which makes the associativity test m^2 if |C| = 1
21:59:02 <orbitaldecay> The section on <`T``> was a little surprising to me. It wasn't immediately obvious to me that a non-trivial finite set could be generated using only I as the basis.
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22:36:45 <zzo38> How common is custom (and mostly meaningless) headers for commentary in Usenet?
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22:43:47 <zzo38> I have seen it more than once.
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22:53:16 <esowiki> [[Cortex language 3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71429 * Cortex * (+752) Created page with "[[Cortex language 3]] is a general term for an esolang, named after and defined by [[User:Cortex|]] operationally defined as "'''''any languge where <code>;'</code> creates a..."
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23:17:31 <zzo38> What is the format of the .mcm file produced by Mednafen? It seems to be a screenshot file (since I told it to create a screenshot, and that is the file that resulted), but I don't know what format it is (ImageMagick does not know how to open it).
23:20:11 <zzo38> I found something that says that it is a movie, and that it starts with "MDFNMOVI", although that does not seem to be the case.
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23:26:09 <int-e> "movie"; sounds like it records game inputs, one per frame
23:26:41 <int-e> . o O ( Details are to be found in the source code. )
23:28:31 <zzo38> I didn't tell it to record a movie (and the documentation and quick help says F9 is for screen snapshots, not movie), and it doesn't have the format that it says is the format for movies, anyways, although the filename is the same as what the documentation about the movie says it is.
23:33:53 <int-e> I'm not sure what you expected from us.
23:34:34 <int-e> (But this is true for almost all your questions, so maybe I shouldn't complain.)
23:36:12 <zzo38> Maybe it is, but it doesn't have the format that I read about, nor was I trying to record a movie.
23:36:25 <imode> http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Mednafen/MCM.html
23:36:40 <imode> sounds like a pebcak problem.
23:36:54 <int-e> imode: I found that, hence the description above.
23:36:55 <zzo38> I read that, and, the file doesn't start with "MDFNMOVI", so it isn't a file of the format documented there.
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23:37:07 <int-e> zzo38: Have you tried "file" on the thing
23:37:26 <int-e> zzo38: Also you actually have the file, we don't. I don't know how many of us are using Mednafen; I don't.
23:37:52 <zzo38> O, "file" says it is a gzip file; I can try that.
23:39:03 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem to be; it still doesn't start with "MDFNMOVI" though; it starts with "MEDNAFENSVESTATE".
23:41:12 <zzo38> OK, trying rgbff on it produces a screen-shot, although not the one I expected.
23:41:17 <int-e> So... it's misnamed and ancient?
23:41:59 <int-e> (Apparently that magic string was changed in 2012)
23:42:52 <int-e> I'm not sure why I'm looking into this... I guess I just like hitting search engines with search terms.
23:43:34 <zzo38> I get a picture which is a screenshot from the correct game, although the state is not the state that I commanded it to make a screenshot of.
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