2020-04-01: 00:14:13 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70556&oldid=70504 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* C */ 00:17:37 [[Cheers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70557&oldid=50618 * LegionMammal978 * (+324) added categories 00:23:03 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70558&oldid=66937 * Challenger5 * (+1058) 00:25:34 [[Talk:Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70559&oldid=70552 * Challenger5 * (+264) 00:27:08 -!- xelxebar has joined. 01:03:12 [[Talk:Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70560&oldid=70550 * Challenger5 * (+854) 01:04:29 [[Talk:Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70561&oldid=70560 * Challenger5 * (+180) 01:06:06 [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70562&oldid=62308 * Challenger5 * (+89) 02:03:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:14:44 [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70563&oldid=69953 * IFcoltransG * (+4) /* Commands */ Updated whether the development is active or not 02:20:32 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:35:42 [[Charm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70564&oldid=54864 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Changed from 'is actively maintained' to 'was actively maintained' 02:37:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:40:11 -!- tromp has joined. 02:43:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:45:10 -!- imode has joined. 03:16:46 tromp: I updated BB.txt and added my code, so that should answer all your questions 05:02:39 [[Talk:Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70565&oldid=70561 * Challenger5 * (-12) move my message to respect signature 05:03:11 [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70566&oldid=70562 * Challenger5 * (-28) remove unused feature 05:31:56 -!- WillGibson has joined. 05:41:12 -!- WillGibson has left. 05:45:31 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 05:53:41 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:53:31 -!- aji has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:54:58 -!- shinh_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:01:03 -!- aji has joined. 07:01:19 -!- shinh_ has joined. 07:05:14 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:05:45 -!- xelxebar has joined. 07:09:53 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:12:53 -!- ashnur has joined. 07:13:15 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:13:34 -!- ashnur has left ("WeeChat 2.7.1"). 08:48:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:24:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:24:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:30:25 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:59:24 [[Vitsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70567&oldid=50645 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-1) 10:24:49 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:26:53 -!- xkapastel has joined. 10:44:52 hi 10:46:52 greets 10:47:18 hey hows it going 10:48:19 it's alright 11:03:33 SIGBOVIK conference procedings are released 11:03:37 http://sigbovik.org/2020/ 11:03:38 cool 11:03:46 i was checking out poc or gtfo recently 11:03:49 just remembered it recently 11:14:32 int-e: thanks for those nice additions. I see how (\1 (\\3 2)) is in your set W. Btw, do you mind me renaming B to V and W' to B in BB.txt ? 11:21:02 tromp: fine with me 11:21:32 (I used V for something else initially but then got rid of that) 11:22:04 B for bodies and V for variables is more mnemonic. plus W and W' are harder to tell apart 11:23:14 This generalizes to things like W T W -> H[W T W], but I haven't checked whether that applies to any of the remaining size 32 cases. 11:25:00 (There's also W W W -> H[W W W], and W W T -> H[W W T] all with slightly different definitions for W and B) 11:25:13 (So the families explode a bit.) 11:26:16 yeah i noticed one of those W W W -> H[W W W] cases leading my program to hang at 34 11:26:35 mine too 11:26:44 (well, I didn't investigate which case it was) 11:27:05 it was (\1 1 1) (\\1 2 2) 11:27:07 (but it does run out of memory at 34) 11:27:43 where memory is what I have here, which is 32G. 11:28:06 my desktop has the same:) 11:28:29 (\1 1 1) (\\1 (\3) 1) looks like it is a WTW case. 11:28:49 hmm, or does it. 11:29:29 Nah, that was too quick. It's (unless I'm confusing myself) different. 11:30:18 Oh. I *am* confusing myself. 11:30:55 (Namely, 1 refers to the second argument, not the first.) 11:32:29 So the conclusion is that generalizing this criterion would get rid of at least one remaining case for BB(32). 11:33:36 are there any conditions on H? 11:34:38 rain1: H ::= □ | \v. H | H T -- it's a context with the hole in head position 11:34:51 (hence H) 11:34:52 okay 11:38:11 functional programming I smell 11:38:16 understand nothing 11:39:10 tromp: Anyway, the reason I blocked your question yesterday was because I had to figure out how to present this nicely... the initial thought process was very convoluted and not as rigorous as I liked. Sleeping on it helped... I could put things together in my head in the morning, then get up and write them down :) 11:39:55 and nice it is:) 11:41:01 (And as things stood yesterday, it might have turned out that the criterion was flawed. Embarrassing, but less embarrassing than being told by somebodye else :P -- I have some pride.) 11:45:42 I wonder whether there's any serious literature on this question... identifying lambda terms with normal form. 11:46:04 or rather, without. 11:46:16 i would be interested in that oto 11:46:58 I think they are called head recurrent terms 11:47:18 that's a small subclass 11:52:20 studying busy beavers is an exercise in recognizing ever wider classes of divergent behaviour 11:54:48 and also, at some point, of compressing computations which we already know will be needed to find BB(38). 11:55:16 (because 2^65536 is uncomfortably big) 11:55:22 at least lambda calculus lends itself better to that than turing machines:) 11:55:44 so much better 11:56:02 Yeah the granularity is finer, so the difficulty rises a bit more gracefully. 11:56:06 it's really interesting to study the lambda calculus BB 11:56:20 TM busy beaver is stuck at 5 states, which is almost 50 bits 11:56:26 i think it would also be interesting to check out the shortest terms that produce 2^n reductions and similar other functions 11:57:23 maybe if you'd parameterize TMs by number of non-terminating transitions instead, you could do something more interesting 11:57:59 But also, TMs are kind of icky to analyse; I wouldn't know where to begin :) 11:59:42 (Okay, that's a lie. There's a fairly obvious notion of stationary loops that don't change the tape, and shifting loops that write the same string to the tape over and over again. And after that is where I think it becomes really ugly.) 12:00:41 both cases of tape-independent behaviour 12:04:31 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:07:57 It's comparable to where we're at with the BLCBBs; the next step is bound to involve some sort of induction. Though, perhaps, there are some devilishly clever context-free-ish grammars (along the lines of W) that describe sets of terms that have no normal forms and are closed under left-most outer-most reduction. 12:12:01 -!- xelxebar has joined. 12:21:58 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 12:34:13 int-e: could you represent Bot by Var maxInt instead ? 12:34:50 (assuming incv would preserve it) 12:37:03 Probably? Var -1 is another idea. But I started from scratch and this felt cleaner. 12:37:36 it behaves similarly to my function eqfree in BB.lhs 12:39:17 so you could avoid Bot by writing a custom S.member 12:39:56 seems cleaner still 12:41:14 (If I had worked on top of AIT.lhs I would probably have resorted to such trickery.) 12:41:29 err 12:41:33 BLC.lhs of course 12:41:43 ... 12:41:59 /undo 12:42:15 Equality modulo free vars is hardly trickery 12:42:33 I meant the Var -1 idea. 12:42:39 oh sure 12:43:37 but expressing Equality modulo free vars is cleaner than adding a Bot constructor to your terms 12:44:11 seems cleaner imo :-) 12:46:04 Yeah but it doesn't interact nicely with Ord. 12:46:21 (not that it really matters) 12:47:25 it matters for efficiency of set membership I guess 12:47:54 sure but that's hardly the bottleneck at the set sizes I allow 12:48:15 I used Data.Set out of habit, really. 12:49:11 btw, you don't need to add all r to the set, just the ones where subst 0 a b is larger in size than r 12:49:37 i.e. the local size minima 12:50:21 I probably don't care :) 12:50:49 not at these sizes no:) 12:50:52 But yeah, good point. 12:51:17 Actually I'm worried that it would explode. :) 12:51:22 btw, my understanding of Haskell is lacking 12:51:48 i thought i could change your b <- return (simp b) to let b = simp b 12:51:58 that's recursive 12:52:12 ah, now I see 12:52:27 so i could just let sb = simp b 12:52:32 true 12:52:33 and avoid the reuse of b 12:52:49 but the shadowing of the old version is a feature here 12:53:11 how so? 12:53:25 It means I will not accidently use it. 12:53:43 ah, ok. 12:54:00 a sanitation feature:) 12:54:19 I usually use primes... and then I produce bugs by missing a prime somewhere :-/ 12:54:54 so I've become a believer in deliberate shadowing of identifiers. 12:55:22 you're a prime example of a shadowy character:-) 12:55:30 in lieu of assignments from imperative programming languages 12:57:09 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:57:46 yes, i guess imperative programs can be directly transcribed with x = E replaced by x <- Just E 12:57:46 > let f n | n <- n+1, n <- n*2 = n in f 4 12:57:49 10 13:00:10 > let f n = do n <- Just n+1; n <- Just n*2 in f 4 13:00:14 error: 13:00:14 The last statement in a 'do' block must be an expression 13:00:14 n <- Just n * 2 13:01:12 > let f n = do n <- Just n+1; n <- Just n*2; return n in f 4 13:01:16 error: 13:01:16 • No instance for (Num (Maybe Integer)) 13:01:16 arising from a use of ‘e_1124’ 13:01:29 -!- xelxebar has joined. 13:02:12 > let f n = do n <- Just (n+1); n <- Just n*2; return n in f 4 13:02:16 error: 13:02:16 • No instance for (Num (Maybe Integer)) 13:02:16 arising from a use of ‘e_1124’ 13:02:22 > let f n = do n <- Just (n+1); n <- Just (n*2); return n in f 4 13:02:25 Just 10 13:02:51 Just ice at last:-) 13:03:09 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70568&oldid=70502 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+388) REgeex 13:28:17 why does your simpA have an argument i that's always 0 ? 13:29:50 because I had some idea that used it with 1 but didn't pan out 13:31:13 related to the "level 2" beta reduction (\x\y. u) v w -> (\x. u[y := w]) v 13:31:58 And by "didn't pan out" I mean it didn't help at the sizes I currently care about. 13:33:28 quesiton about the Wiki. Ellipsis and A are categorized as Languages, whereas Unary and Lenguage are categorized as joke languages. they're essentially the same language. what makes one of them a joke language and the other a language? are they just on the border where they can just be categorized either? 13:35:13 you gotta keep those categories balanced 13:36:54 [[SimPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70569 * B jonas * (+601) Created page with "'''SimPL''' is an esoteric programming language with very simple syntax. SimPL programs are very large because their contents are encoded in unary, there is only one program..." 13:38:17 [[SimPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70570&oldid=70569 * B jonas * (+93) 14:42:15 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:44:10 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:00:33 tromp: Thanks btw, you definitely have a point about using Bot to mark free variables. I don't think it actually goes wrong just yet, but it easily could... 15:01:27 i'm rewriting my BB.lhs based on your improvements 15:02:08 using the S.Set and storing the minimal size r 15:02:52 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:02:58 and using data BBClass = NormalForm DB | Diverging | Unknown for reduction results 15:03:01 ...and even if it couldn't go wrong, the reasons why it doesn't happen are too subtle :) 15:03:17 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:03:38 tromp: nice 15:15:48 -!- imode has joined. 18:07:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:09:18 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 18:32:05 [[Minimal operation language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70571 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1484) Created page with "{{Template:Distinguish/Confusion|Minimal}} '''Minimal operation language''' is a test esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]], who will try to implement it and possibly fai..." 18:32:36 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M 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leaving). 22:34:43 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 22:41:30 [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70576&oldid=70486 * Binyamin * (+1202) 22:41:51 [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70577&oldid=70576 * Binyamin * (-486) 22:44:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:44:36 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70578&oldid=70046 * Binyamin * (+76) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ 23:56:21 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 2020-04-02: 01:59:24 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:59:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:06:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:12:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:16:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:35:39 [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70579&oldid=69638 * Salpynx * (+16) /* Collatz sequence */ 5yr old pointed out a logic bug in my code. Fixed. 02:36:47 lol 02:38:45 I am reading the SIGBOVIK proceedings. There is something about chess, giving an example with Fischer Random where the king is moving to the cell where the rook currently occupies, but nevertheless you are required to move the king first and then move the rook. One way I think might be to pick up the king with some fingers and use other fingers on the same hand to move the rook. 02:40:40 zzo38: yes, there are two articles by tom7 this year 02:44:19 no I'm wrong 02:44:23 there are three 02:45:14 or who the heck knows really 03:40:49 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:45:01 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hommecitrons * New user account 03:47:24 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70580&oldid=70575 * Hommecitrons * (+129) /* Introductions */ 03:51:54 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70581&oldid=69580 * Hommecitrons * (+50) 04:17:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:19:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:21:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:29:32 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 04:33:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:08:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:10:42 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:13:27 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:18:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:18:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:30:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:30:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:35:06 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 05:37:35 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 05:39:40 -!- Lymia has joined. 05:42:54 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:48:36 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in). 05:48:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:49:13 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 06:48:37 -!- rain1 has joined. 07:16:14 [[Babalang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70582 * RocketRace * (+3268) Begin writing the article. Will keep stub status until I am finished. 07:17:36 [[Talk:Babalang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70583 * RocketRace * (+176) Created page with "Hello. This article is incomplete. I will continue writing to it once I have free time. ~~~~" 07:29:19 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: killed). 07:29:36 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 07:29:45 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 07:29:45 -!- xavo[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 07:37:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:59:25 -!- wmww has joined. 08:20:44 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:22:27 -!- tromp has joined. 08:24:46 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:30:31 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:32:41 -!- ski has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:38:08 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 08:38:08 -!- xavo[m] has joined. 08:38:08 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 08:41:47 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Javaveryhot * New user account 09:02:16 -!- iczero has quit (Excess Flood). 09:02:51 -!- iczero has joined. 09:26:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:27:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:49:07 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70584&oldid=70580 * Javaveryhot * (+121) 09:49:36 [[Kentarg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70585 * Javaveryhot * (+1412) Created page with "Kentarg is a programming language created by ~~~. The project was started at 6 February 2020 and released (with version 0.0.0) at 14 February 2020. Kentarg program files use..." 09:53:40 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 09:59:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:21:06 [[Kentarg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70586&oldid=70585 * Javaveryhot * (+1805) 10:28:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:31:48 [[Int**]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70587&oldid=70122 * Hakerh400 * (+22) 10:38:25 [[Self-modifying Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70588&oldid=70425 * Hakerh400 * (+642) Explain an edge case in details 10:50:16 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 10:57:46 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:59:25 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:10:44 [[Halt halt halt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70589 * Hakerh400 * (+2106) +[[Halt halt halt]] 11:10:49 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70590&oldid=70556 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Halt halt halt]] 11:10:52 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70591&oldid=70505 * Hakerh400 * (+21) +[[Halt halt halt]] 11:13:34 [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70592&oldid=70589 * Hakerh400 * (-38) 11:17:55 [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70593&oldid=70592 * Hakerh400 * (+44) 11:58:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 12:16:13 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 12:45:32 -!- user24 has joined. 12:55:37 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:03:52 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:30:08 Oh, Halt halt halt... Let's wait for an example program that exercises all 3 values (assuming ZFC is consistent). 13:42:06 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:52:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:23:50 [[Duck Duck Goose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70594&oldid=42970 * LegionMammal978 * (-963) fixed examples, added categories 14:27:49 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:00:56 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:06:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:08:30 -!- imode has joined. 15:27:26 [[Talk:Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70595&oldid=70559 * Yul3n * (+209) 15:37:14 [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70596&oldid=66590 * Yul3n * (+128) 16:49:29 O, in Magic: the Gathering now they made up cards that you can cast from your sideboard if certain conditions are met. 17:07:31 zzo38: oh jesus they're making permanents made of multiple cards (like B.F.M.s or SNOT or meld or host) in black-bordered magic. in common. this will be a rules nightmare. 17:09:13 also wtf is a Hero. it used to be a defunct creature type, but apparently there's now a card type, outside of standard-legal expansions, named the same. 17:09:48 I really can't keep up with all this nonsense that wizards creates these days 17:10:17 I don't know all of the rules yet, but I am guessing it is similar to meld for the purpose of zone changes, although I don't know what happens to the spell once a permanent is mutated, since the permanent is an object that already existed, presumably it remains the same one, just with different characteristics. 17:15:24 why the heck would they name something that goes onto the type line the same as a defunct creature type? 17:15:55 unless it's for the same purpose, like Legendary named of Legend I guess 17:15:55 I don't know. I don't know what it means either, if anything. 17:17:30 I don't like all of the rules of Magic: the Gathering myself, such as rule 202.3b looks messy to me, and the rules prohibiting creatures from being attached to anything is also messy to me. 17:18:18 (Also, instead of [ability] counters, I would have made the rules [ability] tokens: An [ability] token is a Aura enchantment token with "enchant permanent" and "enchanted permanent has [ability]".) 17:18:27 that's even worse than making an "Avatar" creature type 17:18:38 because "Avatar" at least wasn't in the type line 17:19:02 What do you think about [ability] counters? 17:20:41 I'm less afraid of those. they won't cause rules problems. they may cause playability problems, but wizards is aggressively checking for those, at least in standard, so it probably won't happen. 17:21:07 it's certainly better than the workarounds like static abilities that apply "as long as" a permanent has a certain type of counter 17:21:54 Yes, it won't have rules problems, and avoids workarounds like that too. 17:22:13 Although as I said I would have done it as tokens instead 17:22:33 or the ones that just modify characteristic forever without any marker like a counter, like Balduvian Frostwaker 17:22:45 compared to those, an ability counter is a cleaner solution 17:23:07 obviously they have to be careful balancing them so that they don't cause playability problems in formats with larger cardpool 17:23:15 Although there are disadvantages to using tokens too, such as status. 17:23:19 `card-by-name Aquitect's Will 17:23:20 Aquitect's Will \ U \ Tribal Sorcery -- Merfolk \ Put a flood counter on target land. That land is an Island in addition to its other types for as long as it has a flood counter on it. If you control a Merfolk, draw a card. \ LRW-C, DDT-C 17:23:28 ^ this is an example for the "as long as it has a flood counter" thing 17:25:36 there's also the solution where they print tokens and do abilities like "create an aura enchantment token with shroud and enchant creature and 'enchanted creature has flying' attached to target creature", but it gets long and ugly to print such abilities, so it's not useful when they want to do in large numbers 17:28:00 anyway, +X/+X counter tech has existed forever in Magic, so it's technology that's proven to work if they don't overuse it 17:29:27 I just wonder if there's any clash with existing names of counters that happen to be ability words 17:29:48 Yes, I wondered about that too. 17:32:30 the rules manager probably knew for a decade that ability counters may come one day, but would he have the authority to veto the *name* of a keyword ability on that ground? 17:44:14 I don't know. 17:44:46 Another idea I thought of is for ability counters to use the words "[ability] ability counter". 17:49:34 Also, perhaps they will have to add a new sub-layer for ability counters. 18:06:54 `card-by-name Soul Echo 18:06:54 Soul Echo \ XWW \ Enchantment \ Soul Echo enters the battlefield with X echo counters on it. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Soul Echo if there are no echo counters on it. Otherwise, target opponent may choose that for each 1 damage that would be dealt to you until your next upkeep, you remove an echo counter from Soul Echo instead. \ MI-R 18:08:22 zzo38: ^ echo counter. echo used to be a keyword ability without a parameter. 18:10:54 imagine suddenly having to pay WW for each counter on Soul Echo each turn 18:11:17 Echo costs only apply once. 18:11:31 O, OK, so there is one (although now that keyword ability has a parameter, so it is perhaps not as bad as the other one). 18:12:07 oh true, you'd only pay it one turn 18:12:30 like I said, echo didn't use to have a parameter. even the Comp rules mentions that. 18:12:35 see the printed text of Acridian 18:13:09 Yes, I do know that. 18:15:02 well, at least in this case, at worst they have to oracle patch it to use echo - {0} counters, or better, some other kind of named counters 18:15:47 Yes. 18:16:24 hi 18:16:55 Still, I said it is messy due to things like this, and would prefer explicitly calling them "ability counters" in the text. The effect is the same, although it is more clearly what it means and provides better forward and backward compatibility. 18:19:14 oh yeah, there are fuse counters, but they'd be really hard, probably impossible, to get them to a situation where it's ambiguous 18:19:20 `card-by-name Goblin Bomb 18:19:21 Goblin Bomb \ 1R \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of your upkeep, you may flip a coin. If you win the flip, put a fuse counter on Goblin Bomb. If you lose the flip, remove a fuse counter from Goblin Bomb. \ Remove five fuse counters from Goblin Bomb, Sacrifice Goblin Bomb: Goblin Bomb deals 20 damage to target player or planeswalker. \ WL-R \ \ Goblin Bombardment \ 1R \ Enchantment \ Sacrifice a creature: Goblin Bombardment deals 1 damage to 18:19:34 mentioned on multiple old cards 18:19:46 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70597&oldid=70574 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1124) 18:20:03 The other possibility, other than explicitly saying they are ability counters in the effect that adds them, is to extend rule 111.10 similar to how I mentioned before. 18:20:34 (Although this results in a different effect than the other one.) 18:21:04 they could also just explicitly list which named counters are ability counters 18:23:01 Yes, although I don't like that much either, since it interferes with unofficial cards. 18:34:10 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70598&oldid=70597 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+162) /* Operators */ 18:34:53 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70599&oldid=70598 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) /* Syntax */ 18:35:28 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70600&oldid=70599 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* Syntax */ 19:22:26 -!- MDude has joined. 19:23:01 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:26:21 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:34:36 [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70601&oldid=68927 * Void * (+33) /* General properties */ 19:47:30 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:23:43 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Usernametaken * New user account 20:30:39 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70602&oldid=70584 * Usernametaken * (+430) /* Introductions */ 20:31:38 [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70603&oldid=65759 * Usernametaken * (+1) /* Hello, world! (without string reversion) */ 20:33:52 [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70604&oldid=70603 * Usernametaken * (+0) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */ 20:38:01 -!- Remavas has joined. 21:04:36 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:27:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:28:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:28:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:57:07 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:58:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:00:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:48:59 int-e: I ended up just using id (\ 1) instead of bottom inside simpE, which has the exact same behaviour 22:59:14 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:24:10 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 23:27:23 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:33:33 -!- tromp has joined. 23:37:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:38:00 -!- xelxebar has joined. 23:54:49 I thought some idea of ais523's card game. Possibly the overspill for Reconnaissance resource can be moving cards from the bottom of your spent pile to the bottom of your regular pile. 2020-04-03: 00:53:09 -!- kmc has quit (Changing host). 00:53:09 -!- kmc has joined. 01:03:43 everyone knows that naming something "final version" is almost always a bad idea, because there will be a later vesrion. and "modern" or "contemporary" is also almost always a bad idea, because your book title WILL read stupid a few decades from now. but I'm starting to suspect that naming technological things "mini" or "micro" or "nano" or "tiny" or "compact" is also a bad idea, because something 01:03:49 smaller will come along later and your name will sound silly. just look at "compact flash cards" and "compact disks" 01:08:31 zzo38: right, I should have looked on the scryfall wiki first: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Hero_(card_type) 01:12:03 -!- tromp has joined. 01:16:13 O, so that is what it is. (It still isn't quite so clear how it is working. Vanguards aren't permanents, but heroes presumably would have to be, in order for their functions to work.) 01:16:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:20:15 -!- tromp has joined. 01:25:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:27:42 -!- tromp has joined. 01:29:18 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:32:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:33:35 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:45:16 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:01:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:01:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 02:01:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:10:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:07:32 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:12:57 -!- olsner has joined. 03:17:17 -!- tromp has joined. 03:22:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:12:28 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 04:53:37 * pikhq yawns, waves for the first time in some time 05:15:53 yawn-wave 05:16:44 somebody should try that in a stadion... get a column to yawn simultaneously, see how infectious yawns really are) 05:21:39 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:25:40 Lol 05:33:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:36:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:49:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:52:55 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 06:28:06 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:44:37 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:48:07 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:59:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:01:55 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:02:37 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:03:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:06:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:19:22 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70605&oldid=70558 * Challenger5 * (-164) 07:28:14 -!- imode has joined. 07:34:12 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 07:34:32 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 07:35:02 -!- noomy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:22 -!- wlp1s1 has joined. 07:35:46 -!- moony has joined. 07:36:23 -!- moony has changed nick to noomy. 07:36:25 -!- iczero has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:47:43 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 07:57:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:11:18 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:11:39 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 09:27:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:28:39 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:29:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:29:29 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:31:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:38:40 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:13:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:16:21 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:43:07 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:09:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:12:11 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:40:45 -!- spruit11 has joined. 11:43:53 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 11:44:27 -!- arseniiv__ has joined. 11:45:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:48:27 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:52:08 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:55:40 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:09:19 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 12:52:28 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:00:08 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:13:13 [[Talk:2KWLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70606 * LegionMammal978 * (+232) Created page with "Are the Unicode double quotes ( as opposed to "") part of the syntax, or are they unintentional? ~~~~" 13:33:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:46:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:49:30 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:01:35 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:52:17 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nomennominatur * New user account 14:54:31 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70607&oldid=70602 * Nomennominatur * (+113) 14:55:13 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70608&oldid=70607 * Nomennominatur * (+0) 15:17:17 -!- hakatashi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:17:22 -!- hakatashi1 has joined. 15:17:26 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:17:59 -!- diverger has joined. 15:37:47 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:43:59 -!- tromp has joined. 16:31:59 -!- esowiki has joined. 17:21:17 int-e: i'm working on resolving the remaining TODOs in BB.txt 17:24:09 -!- rain1 has joined. 17:36:18 -!- imode has joined. 17:56:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:59:48 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:12:59 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:16:09 -!- arseniiv__ has changed nick to arseniiv. 18:24:43 -!- imode has joined. 18:59:42 -!- MTGBusyBeaver42 has joined. 19:03:23 -!- aloril has joined. 19:08:01 For those interested in an update on the MTG deck using The Waterfall Model to get BB numbers while still not going infinite, our current bound is BB_16(120) 19:08:04 where BB_1(x) is the normal busy beaver function and BB_2(x) is BB_1(x) nested instances of BB_1(x) 19:10:08 We still have a little room and are no longer restricted to 6 clocks (now over 100) 19:10:50 what would be helpful would be knowing whether the Flooding variant is Turing complete or not. 19:20:40 MTGBusyBeaver42: I wanted to ask, what is the defn of BB_k? 19:21:34 you only say what BB_2 is and it"s not clear how to continue 19:30:08 also doesn't BB have two inputs, the nr of clocks and the bound on the matrix elements, and you vary only the latter? 19:30:49 Bound on the matrix imput 19:31:27 BB_n+1(x) is BB_n(x) nested BB_n(x) times 19:32:50 do you always have 120 clocks? what is the matrix elt bound at the start? 19:33:12 once we have more than 6 clocks we can implement a UTM where the simulated TM is bound by the input 19:33:44 I mean it might not matter, you get a number that's larger than I can imagine 19:34:08 we max out our clocks at half the number of creature types 19:35:01 the 120 constant is the number of large life gains we can get in the setup 19:36:07 which is mostly from the limits of the opponent's deck size 19:38:17 We have them draw 53 cards and discard 60 for 113 just from their deck 19:40:49 how do you get the output value from the waterclock machine? 19:42:07 we make mana via Mana echoes and turn that into storm for Thousand Year Storm 19:43:14 And eventually run out of attack steps so we have the last one trample over and kill them 19:45:31 But what value does that read from the abstract machine? it's just that 120 sounds too small and I want to see this can even start to grow 19:46:21 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70609&oldid=70590 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) /* M */ 19:47:11 -!- MDude has joined. 19:50:04 Well theres a bit of rounding being lost in the bound. We get a few iterations just using our starting life total, and we can easily make our starting matrix for the first computation have values far more than 10^^^^10 19:51:31 which was what ais theorized was required to get BB numbers with the 6 waterclock version 20:00:04 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:01:50 (I'm not sure exactly how big we can get the first computation, most of the tiers we get for the BB function also apply to our pre BB setup to get up to 10->10->16, but it doesn't show in the overall estimation) 20:02:28 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:03:16 [[ADDI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70610&oldid=65119 * LegionMammal978 * (+7730) copied operator tables 20:05:31 anyway, iterating BB_n BB_n times to get BB_{n+1} is crazy 20:05:38 so our first computation would last on the order of BB(x) ticks, and we's get BB(x) colorless mana, which becomes BB(x) storm, and then BB(x) extra combat steps at the cost of a red mana 20:05:39 that will result in even larger numbers than I can imagine 20:05:48 and then you do BB_16 20:06:16 that sounds crazy big, unless you messed something up and it just doesn't work and the deck can just deal 500 damage or something 20:07:08 more likely is we have missed an infinite and the deck is disqualified :( 20:07:28 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70611&oldid=70600 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Syntax */ 20:08:57 that too 20:09:16 BB(BB(10^^^^10)) is already much larger than any number that I can imagine 20:09:23 very likely even BB(10^^^^10) is 20:12:34 even BB(1919) is beyond ZFC set theory 20:15:11 in that someone has explicitly made a 2 symbol, 1919 state Turing Machine that halts IFF ZFC is inconsistent. 20:15:50 MTGBusyBeaver42: yes, but that's for the turing machine BB, not for the waterclock BB 20:15:59 for waterclocks, 1919 is probably not enough 20:16:24 10^^^^10 is way more than enough with a few dozen clocks 20:17:04 true, but they still grow at an uncomputable rate 20:17:11 that said, that particular 1919 state machine probalby does not halt 20:17:14 so it doesn't really help you 20:17:52 the rate, sure, I was just afraid that if you start form 120, then you get something silly like BB(120) = 1, and you can't even start to increase your numbers 20:18:05 but I hope you checked that that's not the case with your construction 20:19:25 oh no we can easily grow faster, consider the examples on the tutorial http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/ 20:19:43 by the way, beaver is particularly thematic for a waterclock machine, because they build dams 20:20:05 so it should be like "busy ant" for a turing machine, and "busy beaver" for waterclock 20:20:42 all of the halting examples take more than their maximum value to halt 20:22:20 and yes, the name and theme of TWM is particularly suited to this challenge 20:23:58 I guess it would be "busy bee" for a machine with a RAM, and "busy bird" for something based on combinator calculus or lambda calculus 20:25:10 tromp: do you call it busy bird function? 20:25:22 the binary lambda calculus one that is 20:27:35 lno; i just call it BB_lambda 20:28:13 as you can see at https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form 20:29:28 if you define one for combinators it's gonna grow slower 20:38:58 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:46:49 BB.txt updated in repo 21:02:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:17:41 Can division by zero errors be caught in Turbo Pascal? 21:21:38 zzo38: division of what type? 21:22:28 Integer division. 21:23:27 sure, but 16-bit or 32-bit? because 16-bit is a cpu built in instruction, but 32-bit need not be if you're compiling for 286. also, for what target? DOS or Win16? 21:24:00 for DOS and 16-bit, you can probably just override the interrupt handler, as long as you restore the original handler when your program exits 21:24:08 Sixteen bits. Target is DOS. 21:24:32 then probably override the interrupt handler. 21:25:05 turbo pascal has a well-defined register use ABI so you can interface it with machine code 21:27:17 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:29:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:30:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:33:19 Do you know if Turbo Pascal has a IF expression (like C has the ?: expression)? 21:33:44 zzo38: I don't think it has one, but you'll have to check the help 21:34:09 zzo38: do you need a lazy one? 21:34:21 I mean a shortcut one 21:34:53 Yes. 21:35:17 I think you need a proper if statement, but I'm not sure 21:35:20 (Of course I can do without, although it would be helpful to have it if it does have.) 21:36:30 zzo38: could you use borland C++ instead? you can even link compilation units among them together if you write C prototypes of the pascal functions, and compile exported C functions with the pascal calling convention 21:36:50 it even has a slightly better optimizer 21:37:08 and a comparably good library that comes with them 21:37:26 though really ancient, confusing if you are used to modern C or modern C++ 21:37:46 I doubt it is a good reason to change everything to C just due to such an operator, since a IF expression isn't really needed 21:37:53 in particular, be REALLY careful with code that uses the "long long" type, because the borland compiler believes that's just a strange spelling of "long" and accepts it without warning and gives you a 32-bit integer 21:38:59 zzo38: sure, that alone isn't a good reason to change 21:40:32 also the pascal compiler is at least small. I could put turbo.exe (the GUI) and the few files it needs (but not the command-line compiler) to my compressed boot floppy with enough space for other programs, that's impossible for the borland C compiler with just a single 1.44 MB floppy 21:41:49 but then you can probably afford multiple floppies, or a hard disk 21:42:11 Yes, I am storing the files on the hard disk 21:42:32 termbot had both the pascal and the C compiler runnable from command line from its hard disk 21:42:40 (also qbasic) 21:43:22 (but qbasic is very hard to use, because its PRINT statement and error messages don't write to stdout/stderr) 21:44:12 I doubt that C is the best programming language for real-mode PC programming, due to the memory segmentation. 21:44:33 zzo38: borland C has extensions to C for that 21:45:39 you can declare pointers that point to specific program segments, dereference pointers to a specific segment, even have variables of type pointer to segment and dereference using those, or just have far or huge pointers 21:45:39 O, OK. 21:46:01 IIRC there's a special infix operator :> to combine a segment with an offset 21:46:25 of cousre you may still want to write some or all of your program in assembly, simply because the compiler doesn't optimize too well 21:48:26 The reason I am using Pascal is because I am modifying a program that is already written in Pascal, anyways. 21:49:26 and do you want to compile it for DOS, as opposed to port it to a more modern linux pascal compiler? 21:50:26 Yes, I am compiling it for DOS. (I have no intention to port this program to other operating systems, although some other people are, either in Pascal or by rewriting it in C.) 21:50:57 It is ZZT. Do you like ZZT? 21:51:22 I don't know, I don't follow these game engines much 21:55:58 I have made many changes, including removing the editor (in order to save memory; but there are external editors that can be used instead), allowing pushing X to clear the message line during game play, making HOME and END keys work in popup text windows, displaying file modification times in the save game menu, getting rid of the configuration menu and help menu (to save both memory and time), etc 22:03:18 Does DOSBOX implement EMS? 22:03:26 I hope so 22:05:13 but if not, there are other emulators 22:12:09 zzo38: try to run the MEM command, that should at least tell if EMM is enabled in your current config 22:13:22 It says 15168 Kb free expanded memory, so it looks like it is implemented (although I don't know if there are problems with the implementation). 22:18:30 Another emulator is Zeta, which is sometimes used with ZZT, although Zeta does not implement EMS as far as I can tell (even though the author of Zeta has also written the code to allow ZZT to use EMS) 22:20:52 zzo38: I used Dosbox very little. I just ran most of my DOS programs on a real MS-DOS in a machine emulated by Bochs 22:21:02 well, after I stopped running native DOS that is 22:21:56 and DOS windows in Win16 22:24:09 although that's sort of orthogonal, I have ran Win16 in the Bochs virtual machine 22:32:07 There is only one 16-bit Windows program I intend to run on my computer, which is Hero Mesh, so that I can test the behaviour to see that the behaviour of Free Hero Mesh in compatibility mode matches that of Hero Mesh. 23:41:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:49:17 -!- xelxebar has joined. 23:58:55 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2020-04-04: 00:09:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:10:13 hi MTGBusyBeaver42 00:11:16 sorry that I haven't been doing much on the M:tG busy beaver construction, I've been too busy playing Netrunner 00:11:24 (which, sadly, is probably not Turing-complete; I have tried, of course) 00:48:16 ais523: Did you read my comment of the card game you wrote the rules for? (Also, maybe we can print cards for that game using TeXnicard, if you want to, I suppose) 00:48:27 (I have some other comments too, which I did not mention yet.) 00:50:22 Also, I think some people on this IRC may be playing mahjong? To those people, I want to ask what rule variations do you use, e.g. do you use any red fives (and if so how many), and do you use kuitan ari or kuitan nashi? 01:17:42 Also, what you thinking of the ability counters and other new rules of Magic: the Gathering cards? 01:36:16 zzo38: I read your comment but didn't immediately have an opinion about it 01:36:23 I'd have to remember how my game worked 01:37:02 I think in order to make it into a proper game, you'd need to experiment with multiple versions of the rules until you found something that worked 01:37:19 I have a copy of your file in case you lost it. 01:37:21 what are ability counters? 01:37:57 Something new in Magic: the Gathering apparently, that permanents with an ability counter have the corresponding ability. 01:38:16 hmm, Netrunner has had that for ages 01:38:21 (I should think a new sublayer would be added to handle this, like there is a sublayer for power/toughness counters, presumably.) 01:38:26 they're called "condition counters" and have abilities that affect the card they're on 01:38:34 although, the only way to create them is that a card turns itself into the counter 01:38:46 (this makes it easy to remember what the counter does, by seeing what card it is) 01:39:36 An idea I had before they did this was ability tokens, which is just another kind of predefined tokens. 01:42:19 -!- hakatashi1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:42:42 -!- hakatashi has joined. 01:44:11 No worries ais523, there have been a lot of changes to the deck recently packing in more optimizations 01:48:07 I'm more worried about the judge calls about the new companions 01:48:25 at least for the prerelease (if that even happens) 01:48:32 in Netrunner? or in M:tG? 01:48:39 in MTG 01:49:04 ah right, I was confused because the new netrunner sets also have a mechanic called "companions" that are likely to cause judge calls 01:49:15 (they lead to a lot of undos when playing online, and you can't really play not-online atm…) 01:49:47 well these companions have a deckbuilding restriction 01:50:10 I'm worries specifically about Lutri, the Spellchaser 01:50:26 "Companion — Each nonland card in your starting deck has a different name. (If this card is your chosen companion, you may cast it once from outside the game.)" 01:51:18 ugh, "starting deck" implies that the restrictions can be met or unmet as a consequence of sideboarding 01:51:26 not only is that a complete freeroll in any izzet edh deck, its the only restriction that is easy to cheat on 01:51:28 if not for that, you could probably just verify them in deck checks 01:51:49 and will require deck checks 01:53:03 anyway, when I saw the Amonkhet spoilers I thought it'd require too many counter/token types to work 01:53:10 and still think I was right in retrospect 01:53:20 I dislike keyword counters for a similar reason 01:53:51 I dislike ability counters for a different reason, which is namespace collision 01:54:56 (One way to avoid this is to write "flying ability counter" or "banding ability counter" instead of "flying counter" or "banding counter". Although my idea previously was tokens instead anyways, which has its own advantages and disadvantages over this way.) 01:55:32 Please don't give out Banding counters 01:55:55 "bands with other creatures with bands with other counters" 01:57:24 you monster 01:58:45 it demonstrates the namespace collision, though 01:58:50 it's really hard to parse 01:59:15 fwiw, I think the M10 rules update ruined banding 01:59:24 when damage went on the stack, it was pretty easy to explain 01:59:59 the more recent version of the combat rules is less loopholey but much more complex, and banding seems more complex still because it effectively sets the combat rules back to the older way of doing things 02:00:32 Yes, although I think some of that has to do with how damage prevention effects work; they work differently before and after Sixth Edition rules. 02:01:32 I don't think banding is too confusing, although there is a problem with the "bands with other" rules, that I wrote some alternative rules for which I think is better and less confusing. 02:06:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:06:41 In Fifth Edition, all damage went on the stack, although it is a different stack than the stack in the modern game. You could also only play spells and abilities that target whatever is on the top of the stack. 02:11:13 (I think destruction events also used the stack; effects which regenerate a permanent targeted the destruction events.) 02:26:04 ais523: *sigh* no, 02:27:09 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:28:42 yes, they already know how to handle the case when the card turns itself to an enchantment etc. but they want repeatable effects like on a planeswalker, and if they really want to do those, I admit that then counters that by themselves grant abilities is the cleanest solution. 02:29:20 I mentioned Balduvian Frostvaker earlier, which has the same problem, it has a repeatable effect that modifies a permanent without a timeout, so you want to mark it somehow 02:29:33 since you would mark it with a bead anyway, it's better if the rules treat it as a real counter 02:29:36 That is probably correct. 02:30:27 yes, it gets complicated because there are multiple different types of counters that your deck can give to any creature, but since they want to do such an effect in just this set, ability-granting counters are probably the best 02:33:23 and yes, it will get ugly even in limited, because in just this one set Ikoria, you can get +1/+1, menace, deathtouch, trample, lifelink, flying, hexproof counters, just from commons and uncommons; 02:34:29 it'll likely slow down tournaments a lot, because you can no longer just look at a creature's art and number of counters to know its stats 02:34:45 and if you have rares, "Chevill, Bane of Monsters" puts bounty counters on any creature, other rares can add first strike, reach, vigilance counters (mind you, first strik counter probably apperas on an unrevealed uncommon too). 02:34:50 ais523: exactly 02:35:03 (OK, sometimes people played auras, but not very often in constructed tournaments) 02:35:08 it's not a very good gimmick for a set, but there's probably been worse gimmicks 02:35:35 ais523: and the decisions get hard too, because there are rares that by themself can grant many different type of counters 02:35:40 Amonkhet had ridiculously complicated tokens 02:35:57 back when I played, tokens were mostly just 1/1 creatures with no abilities, and you could represent them using beads 02:36:24 I just took a piece of paper and tore it and wrote the characteristics of the token on the paper. 02:36:39 ok, admittedly that's just one card so far, "Vivien, Monster's Advocate" and it puts three types of counters 02:36:55 plus "Crystalline Giant" which puts counters on itself only, and randomly 02:37:11 apparently "Crystalline Giant" is rare, not mythic 02:38:00 ais523: heck no, when I played, tokens were 1/1 green elves and 1/1 black-green elves and 1/1 green saprolings, and you had to distinguish them to know which ones get bonuses from the elf lords 02:38:41 and I have to follow which ones are tapped, which ones have summoning sickness, and I want to have a lot of them, because the elf decks only wins if it takes the opponent over by growing big 02:38:42 Yes, and for effects which say "non-black" or "protection from black" or otherwise cares about the colors 02:38:53 so it isn't that trivial to keep up 02:39:30 zzo38: or just fear 02:39:44 fear isn't used in standard-legal sets nowadays 02:39:48 I know 02:39:56 which I think is a pity 02:39:57 Yes, fear, too 02:40:01 but we were talking about how magic was played back then 02:40:09 in old magic, some colors had advantages in the ways that other colors interacted with them 02:40:21 e.g. black creatures were harder to destroy, because many removal spells had a "nonblack" requirement 02:40:25 Make up custom (unofficial) sets with fear and whatever else, if you want to do, I think. 02:40:47 but nowadays those requirements aren't kept to consistently, so any benefits of a card have to be on the card itself 02:41:02 I guess it's clearer to new players to do it that way 02:43:59 ais523: right, with Terror and Befoul (target nonblack nonartifact creature). but then it got uglier because we started to run removal like Doom Blade (target nonblack), Deathmark (target green or white creature), Soul Reap (target nongreen creature), Eyeblight's Ending (target non-Elf creature), and more weird ones 02:44:08 as well as universal ones that just target any creature of course 02:44:48 and those are just the black removal spells, the white ones are weird in different ways 02:44:58 the black ones and the white ones also have varying effects 02:45:24 it all gets complicated if you don't just run a red deck with simple lightning bolt style spells 02:46:05 at least we lost "it can't be regenerated" clauses, which is a good thing 02:48:30 I think that regenerate should have been templated as "the next time this creature would die, regenerate it instead" 02:48:43 (with the word "regenerate" redefined to fit the new template) 02:48:49 that would be much clearer on how regeneration works 02:49:14 ais523: it might not fit on some of the more complicated cards though 02:49:15 What I don't like about "regenerate" is how it means two different things (although related), so that would help. However, I think that text is too long. 02:52:09 regenerate is probably bad because it is one of those complicated keywords that appeared on many cards since early sets and the rules had to maintain and its use was continued as a sort of tradition, similar to protection and banding 02:52:36 it's possible that the early sets shouldn't have started that tradition, but it's sort of too late now, and it would be even uglier to have a different regenerate-like ability in parallel 02:54:10 such an ability exists and is commonly used, "gains indestructible until end of turn" 02:54:14 this is still better than the simpler abilities that existed in lots of different versions, like reach, shroud, hexproof, lifelink, deathtouch, and all those triggers that grant +X/+X when the creature is (a) attacking (b) blocking (c) blocked (d) unblocked (c) blocked but with multipilicity (f) blocking but with multiplicity etc 02:54:18 I think regenerate, protection, and banding are all fine, although the wording for regeneration is bad due to how I mentioned. 02:55:05 ais523: gains indestructible is somewhat more powerful though, because it doesn't remove the creature from combat 02:55:25 though that only matters if there's more than one damage assignment time I guess 02:55:28 or such things 02:55:53 Yes. One card I made up though is "Universal Salvation", which regenerates all permanents when it resolves. 02:56:09 I have also written cards with "regenerate and then destroy this permanent". 02:56:19 `card-by-name bear umbra 02:56:20 Bear Umbra \ 2GG \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/+2 and has "Whenever this creature attacks, untap all lands you control." \ Totem armor (If enchanted creature would be destroyed, instead remove all damage from it and destroy this Aura.) \ ROE-R 02:56:33 ^ this is how regenerate should have been done originally, but it's incompatible with our regenerate 02:57:38 with "The next time this creature would be destroyed" for repeatable abilities of course 02:58:41 also lets you use {T} abilities of the creature after combat 02:58:52 yes, I guess that one is somewhat similar to what ais suggests 02:59:15 the "gains indestructible until end of turn" 02:59:37 that might indeed be better 03:05:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:07:15 I like the way regeneration works; it prevents from destruction only once rather than twice, and the regenerated permanent is tapped, too, which can be meaningful. 03:08:38 -!- imode has joined. 03:10:47 I think creatures should have to tap to block 03:11:24 it'd be easier to track the gamestate, and also reduce the number of unintuitive interactions (like blocking with Prodigal Pyromancer and also tapping it, to damage the creature it's blocking twice) 03:14:51 I do not think it is unintuitive. 03:23:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:35:25 [[Talk:Baba is program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70612&oldid=67809 * Hakerh400 * (+953) Updated the interpreter to match the specification 03:48:42 -!- MTGBusyBeaver42 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:20:54 -!- wlp1s1 has changed nick to [iczero]. 04:55:56 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:31:39 [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70613&oldid=66136 * Hakerh400 * (+15) 05:36:37 I thought making up a keyword ability for Magic: the Gathering where you can play the card from the ante zone (if you own it), at the cost of anteing two cards of your choice from your hand (in addition to any other applicable costs). 05:42:01 [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70614&oldid=67426 * Voltage2007 * (-210) 06:41:33 -!- [iczero] has changed nick to iczero. 08:09:37 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nonameremote * New user account 08:10:28 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70615&oldid=70608 * Nonameremote * (+109) 08:10:52 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 08:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:31:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:44:37 -!- abrex has joined. 08:45:00 hello 08:45:39 -!- abrex has left. 08:49:30 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:50:13 -!- tromp has joined. 08:54:28 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:58:27 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:28:27 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:29:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:29:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 12:02:00 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:13:43 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 12:43:50 -!- user24 has joined. 12:45:39 tromp: I see you filled the gaps for BB(32) 12:47:54 yep. so we can consider the 298 proven 12:48:13 i'll work on 33 cases next 12:48:32 to see if 1812 is true max 12:49:33 computations for 34 seemm to blow up (using way obave 32GB) 12:52:06 Yeah, I have not investigated why. 12:53:38 I tried lowering the depth and then it went through, but it didn't produce the right maximum either (leaving the (\1 1 1 1) (\\2 (2 1)) case to be done) 12:57:37 But tbh I was after low-hanging fruits only anyway... so 31 was a very sweet spot to stop in that regard. 13:12:05 i sure am curious to see if BB(34) > 5*2^16+6 though :) 13:17:27 seems unlikely... 13:17:34 those busy birds 13:18:31 busy bodies :-) 13:44:49 can #esoteric recommend any youtube channels? 13:50:58 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:46:51 [[Aeon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70616&oldid=68588 * LegionMammal978 * (+24) fixed link 15:29:08 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:42:08 -!- MDude has joined. 15:43:13 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:46:40 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:52:32 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:03:55 -!- imode has joined. 16:16:26 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:50:10 `olist 1198 16:50:16 olist 1198: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 16:50:45 rain: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiyuYC0D4-AO0AonCfMifPQ hr-Sinfonieorchester – Frankfurt Radio Symphony 17:09:38 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:20:20 -!- kritixil1 has joined. 17:22:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:45:43 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:49:05 -!- kritixil1 has joined. 17:59:20 [[Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70617&oldid=70614 * Areallycoolusername * (-11) The C Interpreter is not official. The C++, VB.Net, and brainfuck interpreters are. 17:59:47 [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70618&oldid=70617 * Areallycoolusername * (+2) 18:14:59 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:22:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:22:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:29:33 -!- diverger has joined. 18:30:31 -!- diverger has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:33:48 -!- divergence has joined. 18:34:03 -!- kritixil1 has joined. 18:42:16 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70619&oldid=70611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Operators */ 18:42:17 Recently someone posted to my NNTP about a chess variant called "corona chess", in which pieces only move 1 square distances, and must go home every 10th move. I think there are some problems with that, and it could be improved, though. 18:45:51 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70620&oldid=70619 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) /* Gotos */ 18:46:40 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70621&oldid=70620 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) /* Syntax */ 18:50:24 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70622&oldid=70621 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Operators */ 19:00:23 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:12:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:12:37 I can set up a NNTP to discuss the card game that ais523 was making, if this is wanted (or ais523 can set it up on their own server, if they have one). 19:19:45 I do have some other ideas. One is flags, which is another statistic; a card might either have or not have a flag. I can also think of a possible overspill effect for reconnaissance; one possibility is moving cards from the bottom of your spent pile to the bottom of your regular pile (maybe I mentioned this already). I also have some ideas about layers (this is kind of similar to the layers in Magic: the Gathering, but without any time 19:21:33 The set of flags would be fixed by the rules, and which ones are defined is according to what would be needed. I am not so sure I like the rule about max health reductions, although I don't know what would be better. 19:25:20 The layers might be: [I] Deleting aspects. [II] Adding aspects. [III] Changing flags; if the same number of effects add and remove the same flag, the flag remains unchanged, otherwise whichever is more wins. [IV] Numerical effects (addition and subtraction of constant or calculated values, as described by the existing rules). [V] Adding manoeuvres. [VI] Deleting manoeuvres. 19:25:49 Aspects can see the changes made by previous layers but not changes made by the current layer. Later layers override earlier layers. 19:29:31 (If an effect alters a manoeuvre without adding or deleting it, it is treated as though it adds the altered one and deletes the old one, and is treated as a layer V effect for the purpose of determining what values it can see. This means that layer VI effects will see both the original and altered manoeuvre.) 19:48:09 Another idea is to use some computer programming language to implement these rules, perhaps in Haskell. 20:02:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GigoG * New user account 20:08:37 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70623&oldid=70615 * GigoG * (+165) /* Introductions */ 20:09:47 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70624&oldid=70623 * GigoG * (+120) /* Introductions */ 20:10:56 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70625&oldid=70624 * GigoG * (-52) /* Introductions */ 20:19:58 -!- kritixil1 has joined. 20:20:17 -!- kritixil1 has quit (Client Quit). 20:20:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:21:08 zzo38: I did have an idea about layers, although it might restrict the cards you could make too much 20:21:18 the idea was to design the cards so that the layer sequence never mattered 20:22:53 [[Magenta]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70626&oldid=30997 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+230) Now you too can read about bear food 20:27:21 Actually, I thought of adding the layers for the opposite reason, since the lack of timestamps makes some restrictions anyways, this layer system I suggest would add more flexibility; there are some things that are immutable anyways, with or without layers, and some effects which don't work anyways. I think the current system you have doesn't work at all with effects other than adjusting numerical values anyways. 20:34:00 [[Arbol]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70627&oldid=25343 * LegionMammal978 * (+78) /* External resources */ fixed link 21:01:35 -!- spruit11 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:30:11 -!- ap0calyps3 has joined. 21:31:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:31:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:34:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:47:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:02:38 [[AttoASM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70628&oldid=33532 * LegionMammal978 * (-104) /* External resources */ fixed link 22:03:56 -!- ap0calyps3 has left. 23:25:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:37:55 -!- xkapastel has joined. 23:52:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2020-04-05: 00:11:42 [[Az]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70629&oldid=40982 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 00:19:13 -!- iczero has changed nick to mooooooooooooooo. 00:20:16 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 00:28:58 [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70630&oldid=70622 * Hakerh400 * (+128) Add interpreter 00:29:12 [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70631 * Hakerh400 * (+320) /* Implementation */ 00:42:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 00:50:36 -!- ski has joined. 01:03:39 [[BugSophia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70632&oldid=30922 * IFcoltransG * (+23) Languages category 01:05:13 -!- divergence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:09:55 -!- diverger has joined. 01:13:12 -!- mooooooooooooooo has changed nick to inb4. 02:05:57 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:07:17 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 02:13:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 03:22:19 [[BDAMD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70633&oldid=30443 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link 04:27:34 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:46:26 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:51:36 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:01:33 Actually ais523's card game design already has one thing that can be called a flag, which is the "General" flag. However, I have ideas of a few other flags, such as one flag that allows you to play other manoeuvres (except ones with the tactics track as source) before giving your opponent the chance to play, after playing to the tactics track. 05:04:47 -!- inb4 has changed nick to iczero. 05:35:51 `learn The password of the month is starving for attention. 05:35:54 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is starving for attention. 07:14:15 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:17:47 Do you have any of Bohm's brainfuck programs? 08:19:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:18:38 -!- xelxebar has joined. 09:30:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:30:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:31:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:46:57 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70634&oldid=70582 * RocketRace * (+2517) Detail the statement syntax. 10:10:19 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70635&oldid=70634 * RocketRace * (+49) Fix formatting 10:12:04 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70636&oldid=70635 * RocketRace * (+21) Further fix formatting 10:13:04 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70637&oldid=70636 * RocketRace * (+47) Wording 10:27:06 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 10:34:36 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:48:16 -!- xkapastel has joined. 10:56:30 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 11:07:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:21:44 -!- tromp has joined. 11:32:23 [[Preposterous Programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70638&oldid=21367 * IFcoltransG * (+22) Added concepts category 11:50:21 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:59:42 [[Preposterous Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70639&oldid=35673 * IFcoltransG * (+342) Wording rewrite and categories 12:00:23 [[Preposterous Programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70640&oldid=70638 * IFcoltransG * (+34) Added Computational Models category 12:00:54 [[Preposterous Programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70641&oldid=70640 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Sheepishly fix category capitalisation 12:04:39 [[SimPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70642&oldid=70570 * IFcoltransG * (+0) Fixed TC category 13:25:06 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70643&oldid=70630 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) 13:49:01 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 14:43:07 -!- MDude has joined. 15:49:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Manna5 * New user account 16:10:17 -!- rain1 has joined. 16:26:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:39:03 int-e: many of the TODOs in 32 and 33 follow a pattern similar to the one for 29 16:40:47 the most general pattern that captures them is T = \x. K^j x^k (\y. y (x y ...)) 16:41:36 oops, I should add some parentheses as in T = \x. K^j (x^k (\y. y (x y ...))) 16:42:06 where K is const function; I could also write \_ ... \_ instead of K^j 16:42:30 and k >= 1 of course, making T strict 16:44:31 If we then set T_0 = T, and T_{i+1} = \y. y (T_i y ...), then we can show by induction that T T_i reduces to a tern with T T_{i+1} in head position 16:44:39 thus proving divergence 16:46:14 so we can try to define this pattern with a function isW2, and then replace isW a && isW b by isW a && (isW b || isW2 b) 16:46:22 which should eliminate a lot of TODOs 17:10:50 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 17:11:46 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:15:45 -!- ArthurStrong has left. 17:19:52 -!- imode has joined. 18:58:44 -!- ositoblanco has joined. 19:08:51 [[BAM128]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70644&oldid=32357 * LegionMammal978 * (+42) /* External resources */ fixed link, added categories 19:15:42 Do you know how to convert Fermat's Last Theorem into a Magic: the Gathering puzzle? 19:19:44 [[Duck Duck Goose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70645&oldid=70594 * LegionMammal978 * (-19) updated link 19:19:55 [[Cheers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70646&oldid=70557 * LegionMammal978 * (-10) updated link 19:20:06 [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70647&oldid=70536 * LegionMammal978 * (-15) updated link 19:20:17 [[And]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70648&oldid=70535 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) updated link 19:28:36 not sure! 19:28:40 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 19:42:03 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:47:01 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:03:54 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zerojl * New user account 21:06:10 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70649&oldid=70625 * Zerojl * (+58) 21:08:27 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70650&oldid=70649 * Zerojl * (+54) 21:29:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:32:19 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:32:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:45:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:48:53 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70651&oldid=70650 * JonoCode9374 * (+21) 23:02:05 [[Backpackr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70652&oldid=54153 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 23:48:32 [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70653&oldid=69331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Cheating Quines */ 23:58:27 One of the AI opponents in Pokemon Card GB2 has a "invincible deck", which would be good if the AI was not too stupid to handle it. 2020-04-06: 00:00:31 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:01:17 -!- xelxebar has joined. 01:03:55 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:05:50 -!- imode has joined. 01:24:09 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:26:16 -!- imode has joined. 02:11:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:20:07 [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70654&oldid=50725 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 02:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:26:31 [[Binary lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70655&oldid=60332 * IFcoltransG * (+436) Added IO description 02:27:56 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:37:08 [[Beta-Juliet and Portia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70656&oldid=30458 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 02:38:12 I loaded DOSBOX and then it was just black and wouldn't respond to any keys, nor to SIGINT, although SIGQUIT did terminate it. Di you know why? 02:47:58 O, it seems to do that due to a recursive batch file. But I should think it should still try to allow to be interrupted in such a case? 03:02:57 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Bfstack]] to [[BFStack]]: fix capitalization 04:17:29 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 04:19:59 -!- MDude has joined. 05:17:02 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 05:59:20 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 05:59:54 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 07:03:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:16:44 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:17:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:18:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:18:59 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:05:37 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:07:18 -!- b_jonas has joined. 08:18:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:12:28 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 09:14:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:17:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:18:54 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:21:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:29:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:33:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:33:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:42:23 [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70659&oldid=70631 * A * (+181) 09:45:11 [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70660&oldid=70659 * A * (+5) 09:48:39 -!- xelxebar has joined. 10:50:03 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:25:10 [[Pikobrain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70661 * Hanzlu * (+295) Created page with "Pikobrain is an operative system created by [[User:Hanzlu]], link: [https://github.com/Hanzlu/Pikobrain]. I guess you could call it esoteric. Files are accessed by numbers. I..." 12:36:32 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 12:39:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:15:52 [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70662&oldid=70643 * A * (+91) /* Resources */ 13:25:50 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in). 13:25:50 -!- laerlingSAP has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in). 13:39:16 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:07:40 -!- laerlingsap has joined. 14:08:04 -!- laerlingsap has left. 14:57:01 funny to see dutch article that "Beavers are on the rise" 14:58:13 as we're studying here just how fast the busy beaver function rises:) 15:03:53 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:04:21 -!- xelxebar has joined. 15:10:49 -!- ski has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:11:05 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:31:18 [[Binodu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70663&oldid=27204 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 15:44:48 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:46:53 Well anyway there's https://catseye.tc/installation/Mascarpone running on a web page now 15:48:29 -!- imode has joined. 15:52:42 Next I'm going to try update Burro. Not just putting it on a web page, lots of stuff needs updating there. 15:59:08 [[BitZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70664&oldid=46435 * LegionMammal978 * (+28) /* External resources */ fixed link 16:12:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:37:58 [[Blo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70665&oldid=46273 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 16:40:24 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 16:54:11 -!- ArthurStrong has left. 18:05:21 -!- dnm__ has joined. 18:05:55 -!- Lymee has joined. 18:06:19 -!- moony has joined. 18:06:29 -!- wlp1s1 has joined. 18:07:17 -!- glowcoil_ has joined. 18:08:05 -!- dnm_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:08:05 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:08:05 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:05 -!- noomy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:05 -!- iczero has quit (Excess Flood). 18:08:05 -!- stux has quit (Quit: Aloha!). 18:08:05 -!- dnm__ has changed nick to dnm_. 18:08:06 -!- Lymee has changed nick to Lymia. 18:08:07 -!- glowcoil_ has changed nick to glowcoil. 18:09:18 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 18:12:35 -!- stux has joined. 18:33:44 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:34:11 -!- _________more has joined. 18:34:59 <_________more> out of the people on this channel, how many of you are on the unofficial esolangs discord? 18:40:25 <_________more> it seems weird to me that the communities operate almost entirely separately... 18:46:14 -!- _________more has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:48:22 weird indeed 18:48:25 sowing discord 18:48:26 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 18:48:57 int-e: and reaping disoutlet? 18:50:08 Hmm, I have not thought about what the fruit would be. 18:51:12 I imagine it's really just more discord. 19:00:23 hard to disagree 19:07:15 arseniiv: no, you got it all wrong; it's easy to disagree, which is why discord is so common :P 19:08:01 `? discord 19:08:07 The unofficial Esolangs and code golf Discord server: https://discord.gg/3UXSK5p 19:08:11 `quote discord 19:08:13 No output. 19:08:42 `? irony 19:08:43 irony? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:12:16 int-e: I disagree I got it all wrong 19:12:33 that's the spirit. 19:12:40 maybe it was wrong before I got it :P 19:16:30 . o O ( irony is the kind of taste you feel when you are the fat lady of Limbourg and you taste a sample of iron ) 19:19:46 ( and furrow your brow ) 19:26:34 irony is too serious to joke about 19:31:42 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 19:34:41 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:47:09 -!- baidicoot has joined. 19:53:03 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 19:53:31 I was tinkering with my router. I think no luck 19:54:18 the route of all evil 19:58:21 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:03:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:11:15 -!- tromp has joined. 20:29:44 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[BotEngine]] to [[Bot Engine]]: changed spacing to match repo 20:30:06 [[Bot Engine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70668&oldid=70666 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) spacing 20:31:03 -!- imode-ruby has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6). 20:38:00 I thought one idea a keyword ability in Magic: the Gathering which allows playing the card from the ante zone if you ante cards from your hand, possibly also affecting the cost by doing so too, somehow. 20:44:19 [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70669&oldid=61575 * Rottytooth * (-661) Moved now-obsolete "concise folders" to "previous versions" 20:45:31 int-e: after implementing my W2, there are only 7 TODOs for 33 20:45:57 [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70670&oldid=70669 * Rottytooth * (+97) details for "literal value" storage 20:47:59 see latest commit. let me know if you find a bug in the new rule 20:51:10 [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70671&oldid=70670 * Rottytooth * (+79) /* Expressions */ 20:51:16 or in its implementation 20:53:33 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70672&oldid=70662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+145) /* Syntax */ 21:32:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:33:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:35:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:40:35 -!- moony has changed nick to noomy. 21:52:48 [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70673&oldid=70671 * Rottytooth * (+527) /* Instructions */ 22:01:47 [[BrainSpace 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70674&oldid=14790 * LegionMammal978 * (+101) fixed links 22:04:12 int-e: i suspect there is some simpler generalization of your W that includes my W2 22:20:28 how about B^V ::= W^V W^V | W^V B^V | \v. B^V | B^V T ? 22:38:58 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:41:22 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:15:17 -!- xkapastel has joined. 23:53:54 [[Brainflop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70675&oldid=67836 * LegionMammal978 * (+18) fixed link 2020-04-07: 00:22:15 Actually, I like the idea of the ability counter which allows it to band with other creatures that also have that counter. (Tokens will not work so well in this case.) 00:34:17 [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70676&oldid=70660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+231) /* Clarification */ 00:36:07 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70677&oldid=70672 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Gotos */ I see why you were cobfused 00:37:50 [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70678&oldid=70676 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) 00:40:34 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70679&oldid=70581 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) 00:43:49 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70680&oldid=70679 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 00:44:19 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:47:12 [[Brains]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70681&oldid=24741 * LegionMammal978 * (+39) fixed link 00:50:51 [[Brainstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70682&oldid=69681 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 01:15:29 -!- baidicoot has joined. 01:18:58 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:38:14 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oatmealine * New user account 01:51:11 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:13:06 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:17:21 Man, the axiom of choice sucks. 02:19:09 Also, equating cardinality with size. 02:20:25 We all know that R has a greater cardinality than N. But I don't think we should define "bigger" as "having a greater cardinality", and so I don't think we should necessarily consider R to be *bigger* than N. 02:41:45 Then how should you define "bigger"? 02:53:15 I don't think "bigger" necessarily needs to mean anything. 02:54:15 OK 02:54:22 Though of course, from a practical standpoint, it's *useful* to use the word "bigger" to mean "having a greater cardinality". 02:55:12 Yes, that's what I thought. 02:56:19 Just like it's useful to use the word "open" to mean "containing a neighborhood around every point". 03:04:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:14:54 [[Folders]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70683&oldid=70673 * Rottytooth * (+0) type correction 03:50:17 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Softengy * New user account 03:55:59 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70684&oldid=70651 * Softengy * (+176) 04:25:31 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 04:32:00 [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70685&oldid=68845 * Softengy * (+237) 04:41:50 [[ELIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70686&oldid=24473 * IFcoltransG * (+30) Added category 04:42:32 [[ELIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70687&oldid=70686 * IFcoltransG * (+1) Fixed category 04:43:24 [[ELIP/Unlambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70688&oldid=24425 * IFcoltransG * (+30) Added category 05:05:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DomJob * New user account 05:26:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70689&oldid=70684 * DomJob * (+249) 05:26:24 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70690&oldid=66763 * DomJob * (+286) Added an algorithm for x or y 05:56:00 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70691&oldid=70690 * Int-e * (+45) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) (wrapping) */ golfing 05:57:00 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70692&oldid=70691 * Int-e * (-1) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) (wrapping) */ match indentation 06:01:10 weird page, that 06:01:50 way too many different styles of commenting the code 06:03:29 Oh, there's a convention for temporary location introduced at the very top, that resolves some of the confusion. 06:31:16 int-e: the generalized rule gives no TODO's up to 31, 6 for 32 (of which 4 are handled by another rule), and only 3 for 33 06:41:38 and only 15 on 34 06:42:20 including the 5*2^16+6 one 06:43:03 largest non-TODO at 34 is 27380 07:04:01 -!- MDude has joined. 07:15:38 starts swapping at 35 after finding 12 TODOs 07:16:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:17:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:22:03 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 07:23:56 tromp: impressive. I wonder how far this can push the halting probability. 07:30:09 still focussing on BB for now, which is less arbitrary than blc halting probability (which depends on my IO conventions) 07:34:00 can you check the generalization in BB.txt ? 07:39:41 -!- laerlingsap has joined. 07:40:25 I will get around to it. 07:42:11 I am tinkering more on the AIT side of things though... I've decided I don't like the KP definition all that much, because programs can cheat too easily (looking ahead on the input) and once you enhance the universal machine to prevent that, it can actually compute the tail itself. 07:44:23 (KP is the definition where programs are supposed to produce pairs where o is the result and xs is the unconsumed input; my tinkering basically drops the xs part.) 07:54:42 -!- izabera has changed nick to flawful. 07:55:03 -!- flawful has changed nick to izalove. 07:55:28 -!- izalove has changed nick to iza. 07:55:57 -!- iza has changed nick to izakitten. 07:56:03 i thought programs couldn't cheat 07:56:30 -!- izakitten has changed nick to izabera. 07:58:14 as they can never apply the z in U(p:z) 07:59:03 how is dropping the xs part different from using KS ? 07:59:24 oh, no input end marker, ok 08:02:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:03:28 Yeah, the end of input is determined by the last cons (if any) that is forced during evaluation evaluation to normal form. 08:04:41 It's actually fairly pleasant to define (much in contrast to Chaitin's universal machine, which I find quite crazy) if you use open lists with nil = omega (ensuring the absence of a normal form when the tail is inspected by the program). 08:05:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:07:23 (Chaitin's machine (from his thesis/book, chapter 6) evaluates all prefixes and suffixes together with the given program and takes the result of the first one to terminate... in order to ensure prefix-free programs. Which makes it awful to actually implement...) 08:07:41 -!- laerlingsap has left. 08:10:17 Err, just the input, not the (lisp-ish) program itself. But that's bad enough, really. 08:10:48 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:11:29 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:14:15 yes, chaitin's construction is a horrible hack 08:16:09 (I reread that chapter last month, for the first time in 10 years I guess, and I finally got what that machine is doing.) 08:18:29 i reread the jot spec last night and finally got it 08:18:34 Hmm, of course programs-with-inputs also define a Busy Beaver function. 08:19:01 the SKI translation in the article is pretty clunky though, i'm interested in minimal translations 08:19:36 (A Busy Beaver function for every flavor... oh well, that should not be a surprise; you have one for every model of computation that has a quantifiable program size.) 08:20:23 just jot it down 08:24:00 it's somewhat interesting that leading 1s in a program are pointless 08:24:43 I don't really like Iota/Jot, it's sacrificing too much for perceived minimality (compared to SK combinatory logic) 08:25:07 i mean jot is just meant to be a goedel numbering 08:26:25 It's also sacrificing too much (for my taste) if your goal is to assign a program to every bit string. 08:26:30 -!- laerling has joined. 08:26:33 why? 08:27:01 other goedel numberings are even uglier 08:29:40 It's so, what's the word you used, clunky. 08:33:18 the injection of SKI into jot is, the mapping from jot into the lambda calculus is very sleek 08:33:45 i certainly can't envisage a better one 08:33:51 I mean, it is an amazing feat in some way... making {AB} -> 1{A}{B} work, in particular, is impressive (though it's intimately tied to the translations of K and S. But 5 bits for K and 8 for S is ridiculous. And if you don't stick to the fragment defined by {.} I honestly have no clue what programs mean. Neither [F] S K nor S (K [F]) really make much operational sense to me. 08:34:53 Just use ordered pairs to encode binary trees like everybody else. 08:36:27 Phantom__Hoover: Let me stress again that this is a matter of taste to me. There's nothing objectively wrong with Iota or Jot, I think. They're just ugly ;-) 08:37:21 i'm in perfect agreement with int-e :-) 08:37:56 might be that we have similar taste... 08:41:51 ah but that's what gives jot its sexy air of mystery 08:42:26 clearly the vast majority of programs aren't simple encodings of SKI expressions so what's going on there? 08:43:27 I expect it's just a terrible mess of chaos. Not that I've ever stared into that abyss at any depth ;) 08:44:18 (this all started when i wondered how to encode church lists of ascii text out of boredom with normal online 'translate your text to binary!' converters) 08:45:23 obviously {.} will give you a completely boring result 08:46:00 tromp: I think we both like lambda calculus (and by extension, combinatory logic--I don't think either of us can program combinatory logic directly, but abstraction elimination does the trick without blowing programs up too much), and we both can be tracked down into golfing efforts (which favor concise encodings, obviously). 08:47:22 Phantom__Hoover: If you find a way to navigate the swamp (yeah I'm changing analogies) that lies off the trodden path defined by {.}, I think you can really impress a few people :) 08:48:55 you could see how far you get with a BB_jot 08:49:42 How do you even measure the result size? 08:50:14 there's always the blc size:-) 08:51:31 or bcl size, I guess 08:52:31 But I guess this is another source of ugliness... you can't do evaluation in the language that you write your programs in. 08:52:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 08:53:01 yes that's another issue, there are no clear reduction rules in terms of the 1/0 language 08:53:34 Phantom__Hoover: Anyway I don't want to discourage you from studying this beast. 08:54:28 i'll be impressed if i can find a concise encoding of 2 tbh 08:54:43 1 is just... 1, i'm p sure 08:55:35 oh there's another snag which is that the majority of jot programs arent in 'normal form', i.e. the 1[A][B] construction is invalid for them 08:56:10 but you can get around that by padding it on the left with enough 1s, and i think the number required is in general significantly less than you get from {.} 09:26:38 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:28:23 -!- xelxebar has joined. 09:33:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:34:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:34:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:30:30 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:33:38 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 10:38:42 -!- baidicoot has joined. 11:06:25 -!- spruit11 has joined. 11:21:43 -!- baidicoot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:22:05 -!- baidicoot has joined. 11:41:32 [[Talk:Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70693&oldid=70678 * A * (+147) Forgot to sign 11:45:08 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70694&oldid=70680 * A * (+5001) 11:45:33 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70695&oldid=70694 * A * (-13) 11:47:10 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:48:13 int-e: tromp: Phantom__Hoover: hm seems Jot enjoys a very interesting rule jot (f (unjot s)) = (jot f) s, how was it derived (don’t see it at Chris Barker’s page on it) and wasn’t that how Iota/Jot was constructed in the first place? 11:57:23 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:18:29 -!- baidicoot has joined. 12:34:56 arseniiv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot#Jot sketches a proof of that 12:37:07 int-e: thanks, the more general form of that statement, with arbitrary w, helps 14:23:24 int-e: i checked all my TODOs for 34. so we can say that BB(34) = 5*2^16+6 = 327686 14:24:24 that cannot happen with TM BB; predicting a value far in advance of checking it:) 14:25:10 Well, granularity. 14:25:24 What is a 34 bit TM? :) 14:26:12 a 4 state TM takes more than 34 bits to describe 14:26:21 Also up to this point the fairly naive filters (not counting the W or W2 criteria which are a bit more clever) have been embarrassingly effective. 14:27:07 and BB(4) = 13 14:27:14 for TMs 14:27:21 (I still haven't looked at the W2 thing, and I think it'll be a couple of days before I do... I really want to give this problem a bit of thought first.) 14:27:57 There is also some simplicity to BLC. 14:28:51 yes, it's simpler, more fine-grained, faster growing, and naturally expressed in bits. seems better in every respect... 14:30:03 The thing is, on an abstract level, what makes programming feasible is code reusage... giving a piece of code a name, and using it by that name somewhere else. Lambda calculus basically turns that principle into an evaluation mechanism, using substitution to put code where it's used so it can be evaluated. So it's eminently programmable, which is in stark contrast to Turing Machines. 14:30:56 So perhaps it's not completely surprising that the human understandable (\x. x x x x) 2 is also an actual good busy beaver. 14:31:33 (At least once you discover the Church numeral accident that exponentiation is just application.) 14:32:54 But I still think the main factor is the better granularity of measuring program size. 14:33:30 bits beat states 14:38:02 Is there an analogue for http://oeis.org/A052200 (number of n-state 2-symbol TMs) modulo the obvious symmetries (permuting states, and I guess demanding that all states are reachable, at least in the graph given by the state transition diagram?) 14:39:39 > log (20^8/24)/log 2 -- naive estimate 14:39:41 29.990462258377743 14:48:55 tromp: So... if we count closed terms... we reach that number (20^8/24) at size 41... 15:03:12 the normal count is (4n+4)^2n for n state TMs 15:10:03 4*2*log(4*4+4) = 34.6 15:15:01 in a straighforward encoding, you're use a whole number of bits per transition, and it would rise to 4*2*ceil(log(4*4+4)) = 40 15:15:08 you'd use 15:42:00 -!- imode has joined. 15:44:02 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70696&oldid=70692 * Softengy * (+59) Added improved x = x * x algorithm 16:04:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 16:10:56 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70697&oldid=70696 * Softengy * (+1) Edit to work with x=0 and not require wrapping 16:12:33 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:12:42 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70698&oldid=70697 * Softengy * (-6) /* x = x * x */ Fixed algorithm from incorrect previous edit 16:32:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:49:31 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 17:06:36 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70699&oldid=70698 * Softengy * (+367) /* x = x / y */ Added wrapping algorithm 17:49:22 well i started enumerating all jot programs to find 2 but i gave up on trying it in web browser haskell 18:15:58 [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70700&oldid=70685 * Softengy * (+257) 18:21:45 [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70701&oldid=70700 * Softengy * (+228) Improved algorithm for x = x != y 18:28:31 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[CaneCode]] to [[Cane Code]]: fix spacing 18:31:03 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 19:45:52 [[Chevron]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70704&oldid=69927 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title 20:08:14 My paper about Mersenne Twister cracking method I used for Seed golfing will be publicly available in Phrack Magazine p71 20:08:29 also, there's a sneak peek on my homepagE: http://kspalaiologos.now.im/?id=9 20:08:44 maybe someone's interested in this 20:10:05 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:50:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:40 -!- tromp has joined. 21:08:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:32:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:34:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:34:25 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:50:43 [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70705&oldid=66263 * Ais523 * (+109) link to kspalaiologos's guide to Seed programming 21:51:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:52:04 kspalaiologos: I was interested, although your algorithm is more complex than I expected; I was expecting there to be an instant reversal that produced optimal output, but maybe not? 21:53:04 I looked into reversing LCRNGs a while back, if you have all the bits it's trivial, if you have only a few bits of consecutive elements then reversing the sequence appears to be NP-complete but typically easy in practice 21:53:26 (I forget the details but vaguely remember that you might be able to encode the subset sum problem in it) 21:57:41 Play Washizu Scrabble, which like Washizu mahjong, you can see half of your opponent's cards, it is played with teams, and only one player on each team has a score that counts. 22:03:25 [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70706&oldid=70705 * Ais523 * (+777) reference formatting, cats, difference between Turing- and -complete, the existing proof is for -hardness but Turing-completeness is also possible 22:04:54 hmm, I wonder how hard it is to write a Befunge-98 program which you can append anything to, and the resulting program will calculates its own length in bytes and interpret that as a program in some TC language 22:05:11 err, anything made up of printable ASCII and newlines 22:05:23 I guess there's an issue that trailing newlines might or might not be visible 22:05:35 Trailing spaces on a line wouldn't be visible either. 22:05:50 ah yes, and that could be a larger problem 22:06:08 hmm, Seed would actually still be TC if the Befunge-98 program ignored whitespace 22:06:34 it'd be harder to calculate the length value you needed, but still fairly easy, as that only requires running the Mersenne Twister forwards and observing where the whitespace would be output 22:07:09 there are some interpreters where you can deduce the presence of trailing spaces, though, aren't there? 22:08:03 I imagine so, but I don't think there's a portable way. Even the 'y' command's bounding box is defined in terms of "a non-space cell", not the original program source. 22:08:24 (Even though it goes on to say: "These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file.") 22:11:31 I guess you could "simply" multiply the length value by 2¹⁹⁹³⁷-1 and have the program detect how many repeats of itself existed, although that would require proving that passing the Mersenne Twister through the modulo operation didn't create an output with a quotiented period 22:13:46 Knuth's SGB defines a defines a random number generator based on linear feedback. it's a pity that that one didn't become as well spread and used as a standard as the Mersenne twister. it's probably because SGB doesn't define an initialization method that takes more than a word of seed. 22:15:15 the Mersenne Twister's internal state is kind-of ridiculous :-D 22:15:36 is there a benefit to having it that large? 22:18:48 ais523: dunno. the SGB random generator has an internal state of 55 words, 32 bits each, plus an index into that. 22:22:23 NH4's PRNG has a 96-bit state, IIRC 22:23:04 ais523: but that has a different goal, doesn't it? NH4 wants to have an RNG that at least tries to be cryptographically secure, and sacrifices speed for that. 22:23:39 the Mersenne twister and the linear consomething generators don't try to be crypto secure at all, instead they try to be as fast as possible on near future machines when they were designed 22:25:09 TAOCP chapter 3.6 exercise 7 asks you to show that a linear congruential generator is very bad for cryptography, as in, find an attack 22:26:13 NH4's PRNG is not cryptographically secure, there are two requirements for cryptographic security, it only aims to satisfy one of them 22:26:39 (specifically, it cares about the property that observed output cannot be used to deduce future output, but not about any other CSPRNG properties) 22:27:23 ais523: I know it's not cryptographically secure, but it at least tries to be closer to it 22:28:17 right, it wants to make it hard to predict future outputs, whereas the Mersenne twister (and lcgs and multiply random generators) don't 22:28:41 that already makes NH4's random generator necessarily somewhat slower 22:28:51 to make it fully cryptographically secure would be an overkill and even slower 22:29:37 ais523: doesn't NH4 also care about that you can't deduce anything about past output other than what was told to you? 22:29:51 oh yes, good point 22:30:12 I haven't seen that mentioned as a cryptosecurity property in the past 22:30:30 that's because it's implied by stronger properties I think 22:30:39 anyway, 96 bits seems pretty small even for that, 22:30:42 right, the stronger property is "you can't deduce past output from knowledge of the seed" 22:30:52 but then, we're not basing our banking system on the NH4 random generator, it's just a game 22:31:16 and of course, if you /can/ deduce past output from future output, then you can deduce it from knowledge of the seed simply by generating some future output from it and using it to calculate past output 22:31:32 ais523: that's not quite precise 22:31:57 I also require that you can't deduce past output from the combination of future output and other past output before that 22:32:01 "you can't deduce past output from knowledge of the current internal state" is the precise formulation, I think 22:32:08 oh, of the property that NH4 has 22:32:09 just the current seed isn't enough for that 22:32:23 yeah 22:34:18 "if you have a sequence of RNG outputs where some are unknown, you can't deduce the unknown elements from the known elements" 22:34:51 of course this is trivially false if the length of the sequence exceeds the period of the RNG, but we're assuming that the number of outputs which will ever be requested is small compared to the period 22:35:02 ais523: sort of, but technically you need even stronger, because your knowledge need not be granular to individual elements of the sequence 22:35:35 what is the period of the NH4 random generator (at an order of magnitude)? 22:36:01 same as the state size, 2⁹⁶ 22:36:42 well, I don't know that for certain, but if it isn't, the cryptographic hash I'm using is utterly broken :-D 22:37:45 ok 22:39:05 actually, it's pretty certain that the period is 2⁹⁶ because the only way it couldn't be would be if the hash function ignored the first bit of its input entirely if it happened to be exactly 96 bits long 22:39:21 and there's no way that brokenness of that magnitude wouldn't be noticed 22:40:13 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:01:25 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:27:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:27:45 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:45:26 [[Alphaprint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70707&oldid=70489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Output */ fixed 23:49:58 [[LogicF---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70708&oldid=70473 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+28) Cat fix /* Examples */ 2020-04-08: 00:04:58 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:05:08 -!- FreeFull has joined. 00:20:39 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 00:24:00 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:36:30 [[Parenthesis Hell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70709&oldid=18413 * IFcoltransG * (+4) Linked to inspiration, Lisp 00:41:08 [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70710&oldid=70475 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Syntax */ Yes // is Integer divison 00:41:49 [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70711&oldid=70710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-86) /* FizzBuzz */ 00:46:26 [[Lisp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70712&oldid=70114 * IFcoltransG * (+430) /* List processing */ Added section on pronunciations and composed cars and cdrs 00:51:38 maybe some common sense can set me straight: I'm building a service. bit of a "high-class" version of LambdaMOO with an economy attached to the middle of it. in it, I need to be able to run user-submitted code. arbitrary user-submitted code. 00:52:30 this code needs to be sandboxed. so, I turn to "popular" tools. node.js springs to mind. seems alright enough. I have a couple of things like a job queue, an SQL ORM, websocket support... 00:52:58 I'm at a crossroads between two options. do I use something like a Forth, or PostScript. or do I use sandboxed JavaScript. 00:53:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:53:48 I figured I'd first ask the esolangs channel because, why not. esolangs are kind of at the opposite end of the UX spectrum. 00:54:25 imode: I'd do some sort of language-independent sandboxing instead 00:55:00 FreeFull: I'd take that route too. but there's a lot of variables associated with that. 00:55:01 Actually, no, language-independent wouldn't be enough 00:55:27 bear in mind. user code runs per-command. 00:55:35 Maybe Lua? 00:55:46 no good way to do memory limits. 00:55:55 or CPU time measurements. 00:56:18 imagine 10k+ users, all frothing at the chance to knock your machines out of memory. 00:57:54 it's essentially a choice between creating a slightly user-hostile environment, sacrificing user experience for simplicity and control, vs. using V8 isolates via an npm package called `isolated-vm`. 01:02:58 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:03:27 I'd go for something where there's a separate sandboxed process, and some sort of API to communicate with the main server process 01:08:32 I guess I'm also discounting what people did for the DCPU-16 or whatever that was. 01:09:17 for a game that never even released. 01:13:46 You could have an entire virtual machine with its own instruction set, but that's definitely a bit overkill 01:14:20 I already have some prior work that does this. 01:15:15 which is why I'm torn. it brings up questions as to why JavaScript grew to be so popular, and whether an application's extensability mechanism will be used in spite of its current popularity. 01:20:38 Be careful if using the sandboxing in Node.js; use Object.create(null) to create the sandbox object, and don't put in any objects that come from outside of the sandbox. 01:20:53 I'd be using https://github.com/laverdet/isolated-vm 01:21:00 Javascript is popular because it's pretty much only programming language all popular web browsers support 01:21:48 However, PostScript might work (in -dSAFER mode, which is now the default; you can also use writable systemdict to delete some entries that you don't want before locking it; for example, you probably don't need any of the graphics operations or device operations), and making your own variant of Forth could also work. 01:22:15 You could also use other implementations of JavaScript, and write your own interface to it. 01:22:59 There are many other possibilities too. 01:23:18 FreeFull: right. so it's popular based on the strength of its userbase, because its userbase is derived from people that use a web browser, and people that want to create things that fit in a web browser. 01:23:44 But in order to do memory limits and CPU time limits, you would do something else, such as setrlimit. 01:24:32 There is also, as mentioned, Lua, and also SQL, even. And actually there are many other possibilities too. 01:27:37 which possibilities will people actually tolerate, is the question. 01:28:20 I think different people may tolerate different things, perhaps. 01:28:57 I don't think my users want to do stack juggling in their heads. 01:29:20 Something that other programming languages can be compiled to might be helpful, maybe. 01:29:32 I was looking into WASM, but it's very immature. 01:32:00 I might use a VM such as Glulx, although as far as I know none of the other programming languages listed can be compiled as Glulx code (and you may need your own I/O system too; this is possible if needed) 02:03:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:46:39 [[ALIMBIHNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70713&oldid=70209 * IFcoltransG * (+94) Add cats, because everyone loves cats 02:51:22 [[Brainfuck.NET]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70714&oldid=61456 * IFcoltransG * (+82) Some categories 02:52:39 [[Brainfuck Contest]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70715&oldid=56236 * IFcoltransG * (+37) Added category (even though it doesn't exist) 02:53:29 [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70716&oldid=68696 * IFcoltransG * (+38) Added a nonexistent category 02:54:47 [[Brainfuck Contest 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70717&oldid=56237 * IFcoltransG * (+37) Added a category that as yet doesn't exist 02:57:12 [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70718&oldid=49987 * IFcoltransG * (+18) Even though the language is gone, a date category is still helpful for the sake of history 02:58:46 [[Brainfuck Substitutor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70719&oldid=51660 * IFcoltransG * (+76) Added a couple categories 03:02:17 Does the FOR command in Pascal have something like the STEP in BASIC? 03:05:10 [[Brainfuck derivatives with nontrivial computational class proofs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70720&oldid=58333 * IFcoltransG * (+20) Added Proofs category 03:05:40 [[Brainfuck in Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70721&oldid=57063 * IFcoltransG * (+28) Added implementation category 03:05:41 -!- ski has joined. 03:06:10 [[Brainfuck in Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70722&oldid=70721 * IFcoltransG * (+1) Fixed Implementations category 03:07:30 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70723&oldid=53416 * IFcoltransG * (+81) Added some categories 03:25:39 [[Aperture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70724&oldid=50609 * IFcoltransG * (+1349) Unblanked this page with a new joke language of my own invention 03:27:56 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70725&oldid=70045 * IFcoltransG * (+107) Added (re-added?) Aperture 03:30:47 [[User:IFcoltransG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70726&oldid=70005 * IFcoltransG * (+116) Added Aperture lang 03:31:09 [[User:IFcoltransG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70727&oldid=70726 * IFcoltransG * (-3) /* Published Esoteric Languages */ removed extraneous word 03:47:26 zzo38: look that up in http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Loops/For_with_a_specified_step 03:52:07 OK, they say it doesn't have it 03:53:45 [[Armok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70728&oldid=61332 * IFcoltransG * (+69) Added some categories 03:54:05 [[Armok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70729&oldid=70728 * IFcoltransG * (-2) What is up with my spelling today? 03:57:15 [[Cactusi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70730&oldid=68799 * IFcoltransG * (+43) Added categories 04:20:55 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:04:57 [[Talk:Parenthesis Hell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70731&oldid=69951 * IFcoltransG * (+327) /* Blog post */ new section 05:18:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:24:23 -!- tromp has joined. 05:28:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:56:12 -!- tromp has joined. 05:59:09 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:00:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:05:39 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:09:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:17:37 -!- tromp has joined. 06:18:42 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:19:12 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:19:48 @tell ais523 the algorithm is instant. the BXn one I haven't published isn't. 06:19:49 Consider it noted. 06:22:29 @ais532 the state size makes the generator maybe go a bit faster, and allows some room for vectorization. 06:22:30 Unknown command, try @list 06:23:57 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:44:49 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:44:59 sorry but my IRC client is going nuts 06:45:31 @tell ais532 the state size makes the generator maybe go a bit faster, and allows some room for vectorization. 06:45:32 Consider it noted. 06:47:57 Do you have a guess when pokemon numbers will exceed three digits and when pokemon numbers will exceed sixteen bits? 07:41:54 if you're asking me => I don't know anything about pokemon(s) 07:59:40 zzo38: exceed three digits => probably when the first pair of generation 9 pokemon games are released, in 2 or 3 years. sixteen bits => never, the video game franchise won't last that long. 08:02:05 zzo38: however, it's possible that the National Pokedex numbering scheme will be abandonned some day, so there will be pokemon with no clear number in it. there are already variant pokemons with no separate numeric indexes. 08:02:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:17:50 well, assuming they are using unsigned 16 bit and they will introduce 200 pokemon each year, it will happen 323 years after exceeding three digits 08:18:01 i would also expect that to be unlikely 08:22:40 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 08:24:33 . o O ( s/introduce/release/ ) 08:27:57 into the wild! 08:30:00 You do have to capture them, don't you? 08:34:07 #esoteric -> welcome to the world of pokemon & mtg fans, mathematicans and crazy harp tuners 08:34:32 every single of these topics is something I don't understand :p 08:34:34 someone maybe have to but I’m not interested, let them go forth and multip… er, live in peace 08:34:47 int-e: ^ 08:34:56 kspalaiologos: crazy harp tuners? 08:35:10 arseniiv: forth is another big mystery to me ;) 08:35:12 `?q harp 08:35:14 ​?q? No such file or directory 08:35:17 `q harp 08:35:18 1280) hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps 08:35:22 ^ this 08:35:28 ahh 08:35:48 kspalaiologos: you forgot the punsters 08:36:14 how could I... :p 08:36:44 int-e: erm I retcon I actually meant “go fourth”, in light of harp tuning it makes more sense. Then they may go fifth and maybe a seventh and them bam microtonality and mass extinction 08:37:09 `? harp 08:37:11 harp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:37:21 `? hairpin 08:37:22 hairpin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:37:29 `? harpoon 08:37:32 harpoon? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:37:35 hm 08:38:10 why jbot died 08:38:10 kspalaiologos: int-e killed it so that you don't spam the channel :-) 08:38:14 my favourite so far xD 08:38:51 arseniiv: The fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, the major lift, the baffled king composing hallelujah? 08:39:20 kspalaiologos: ais523 is the harp tuner, the crazy are some other ones of us #esoteric members 08:39:49 `? alice 08:39:50 Alice doesn't want to go among mad people. 08:39:53 int-e: oh, I actually didn’t know the lyrics so this is a coincidence 08:40:21 yeah I remember 08:40:32 though also there are far too many songs about songwriting 08:40:55 like, are there that much paintings about painting? 08:41:07 I only know this one because of Shrek. 08:41:10 or sculptures of sculpting 08:41:40 arseniiv, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Paintings_about_painting 08:41:46 or esolangs abou… oh 08:41:54 arseniiv: there are paintings about collecting paintings 08:41:59 kspalaiologos: thanks :DD 08:42:03 arseniiv: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawing_Hands 08:42:04 b_jonas: :o 08:42:09 basically reader's digest paintings, so that kings can show their rich painting collection to other people 08:42:12 serious 08:42:15 ah, the hands I do know! 08:42:34 I don't know many sculptures of sculpting 08:43:15 a sculpture about sculpting would be hard to make 08:43:34 movies about movies 08:43:35 as far as I'm oriented in art, lol 08:43:44 the crazy are some other ones of us => is that property decidable? 08:43:45 tv shows about television 08:43:45 int-e, there's just too many of these, lol 08:44:09 articles about journalism 08:44:25 observations about observations 08:44:36 where does it stop? 08:45:04 human culture is too obsessed with itself ;) 08:45:24 kspalaiologos: the parliament building has a bunch of small statues decorating the top of indoor columns, each depicting a different profession. they're pretty nice, but there's a surprising lack of photos of them on the internet, so I don't recall whether there's a sculptor. I think there's a painter. 08:45:53 but it's fascinating 08:49:42 is there a resource on binary lambda calculus that will explain it to me like I'm five? 08:50:27 where does it stop? => that’s precisely the question 08:51:32 five is 101, so yes, no and yes^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W 08:51:50 alright so from what I can understand, one can simply create a lambda and execute it on a certain bit 08:52:07 kspalaiologos: maybe the missing part is de Bruijn indices which are used there 08:52:19 But 5 is 0000011100111001110011100111010 ;) 08:52:22 and 1x0 construct lets you grab nth in the depth parameter? 08:53:00 kspalaiologos: one can simply create a lambda and execute it on a certain bit => ah, not quite that. This is just plain lambda calculus, just expressed via bit strings 08:53:12 kspalaiologos: Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_index may help. 08:53:16 I' 08:53:18 m reading this 08:53:26 why on this image attached 2 is reffering to the first lambda 08:53:43 it skips two terms, right? 08:54:16 kspalaiologos: it skips the green one; the blue and orange lambdas aren't in scope, so the red one is next 08:54:22 kspalaiologos: sculptures of sculpture, see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sculptures_of_sculptors ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Carpeaux_au_travail is a good example, it shows a human holding a statuette and a tool in hands 08:54:22 (okay I’ll go eat something already) 08:54:32 okay 08:54:41 I get it, theoretically 08:54:48 still I can't see how can it be useful 08:54:49 kspalaiologos: this may make more sense if you draw the term as a tree 08:54:52 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Monument_%C3%A0_Emmanuel_Fr%C3%A9miet_by_Henri_Greber_(1913) might be an even better example 08:55:28 I wonder how much did it take to squeeze a brainfuck interpreter into this 08:55:41 kspalaiologos: (a tree where lambdas have one child, and applications have two children... then you can resolve the indices by walking up the tree) 08:55:49 b_jonas: thanks too 08:55:49 fine 08:55:56 I'll try to understand some examples 08:56:41 how can this language have I/O 08:56:55 it just outputs the final list/whatever? 08:57:18 you pass in a (lazy) list of bits (or bytes) and produce a similar list of outputs as a result 08:57:20 also it may be clearer if trying to write some functions on those terms, like substitution or something 08:57:39 and one can supply input to the program, right 08:58:02 from what I can see, this language seems to have the same problem of O(n) complexity when storing constants 08:58:12 like this five you've posted is absurdly long 08:58:17 So fundamentally you'll have to understand how data is encoded... that will probably take a while to become fluent with. 08:59:21 kspalaiologos: It's only that big because it's the full Church numeral (\f\x. f (f (f (f (f x))))) 09:00:09 (Outputting much more than 300 bits in Perl will land your computer in swap hell.) => lmao 09:00:19 does blc consume this much memory? 09:01:22 Asymptotically the program size doesn't matter... at a few hundred bits you can write decoders for much more efficient data formats. 09:02:13 hmm. I suppose golfed blc code doesn't tend to be very friendly to garbage collection. 09:03:55 Oh primes. The underlying algorithm uses a quadratic amount of memory I think (and the constant factor isn't small either). 09:04:10 kspalaiologos: try reading https://tromp.github.io/cl/Binary_lambda_calculus.html 09:06:07 The quadratic memory usage is a result of golfing; the constant factor could be improved by a better VM I suppose. 09:07:20 int-e: i still need to fix the proof of the W2 rule. It's not true that B^V has (W^V)^+ W^V in head position 09:08:32 the other observations still hold 09:09:07 it would suffice to show that W^V is strict 09:09:55 tromp: I'll take your word for it (still mulling over the problem myself) 09:10:08 (so haven't looked at what your proposed generalization is) 09:31:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:33:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:34:42 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:34:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:36:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:36:02 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:45:28 -!- xelxebar has joined. 09:54:28 [[Cactusi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70732&oldid=70730 * Salpynx * (+0) correct (I hope) year category 10:12:39 -!- MDude has joined. 10:23:11 int-e: see latest commit for proof fix and added conjecture on which proof rests 10:30:06 -!- baidicoot has joined. 10:56:14 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:20:08 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 11:28:49 -!- Melvar has joined. 11:51:11 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:02:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:03:15 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:47:52 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:48:50 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais532. 12:48:52 @messages 12:48:55 -!- ais532 has changed nick to ais523. 12:48:58 @messages 12:49:37 mroman asked 5y 11m 9d 17h 22m 55s ago: can you do a "programming languages with no Hello world" list? ← I wonder if mroman is still interested in this 12:50:00 if my nick had been correctly spelled the first time, there wouldn't have been the ~6-year wait 12:50:56 Do you have a guess when pokemon numbers will exceed three digits and when pokemon numbers will exceed sixteen bits? ← there's a lot of evidence that Game Freak is planning to abandon the National Pokédex numbering scheme, so it's likely that the numbering scheme will change before either of those benchmarks are reached 12:53:32 @tell mroman I think most esolangs don't have a hello world, in many cases because they aren't capable of producing text output; making a list of esolangs which can hello world but don't have one would likely have to be done manually and be very time consuming 12:53:32 Consider it noted. 13:42:13 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:43:20 -!- baidicoot has joined. 14:06:16 Petition to start calling categories monoidoid (by analogy with semigroupoid, groupoid) 14:23:49 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EvoEvoEvoEvoLution * New user account 14:37:56 hi 14:38:17 Yo 14:38:46 [[Neg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70733&oldid=65727 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Superpositions */ fix typo 14:45:27 how are you doing? 14:46:03 [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70734&oldid=70371 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) /* Truth-machine */ 14:46:21 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70735&oldid=70386 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) /* Eso2D */ Added Eso2D 14:47:17 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70736&oldid=70735 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* XENBLN */ Updating 14:51:12 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70737&oldid=70736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+115) /* DINAC */ 14:52:28 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70738&oldid=70737 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Implementations */ 15:04:17 [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70739&oldid=69838 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Resources */ 15:11:51 -!- imode has joined. 15:12:33 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1256) 2D version of PlusOrMinus 15:13:28 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70741&oldid=70738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+327) /* PlusOrMinus 2 */ 15:14:22 -!- kiedtl has joined. 15:16:11 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70742&oldid=70740 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Commands */ 15:16:22 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70743&oldid=70742 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Commands */ 15:30:50 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Css Script]] to [[Css script]]: fix capitalization 15:32:46 [[Css script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70746&oldid=70744 * LegionMammal978 * (-19) formatting 15:40:47 [[Cubically]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70747&oldid=52173 * LegionMammal978 * (+87) added repo link 15:41:59 lmao what, css script? 16:05:12 [[D1ffe7e45e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70748&oldid=62325 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 16:07:17 the css script website appears to be a dead link already 16:07:33 although the repo is up 16:09:00 it appears to be a primitive-recursive language with a large number of primitives for graphical output 16:09:08 I'm not sure what relationship it has to CSS 16:10:14 ah no, I think it supports recursion, which would make it TC given bignums 16:10:20 (e.g. you can implement Blindfolded Arithmetic) 16:10:56 unless, hmm 16:11:11 I don't think it has any conditionals and I'm not convinced that the arithmetic allows two variables as arguments 16:14:40 OK, looking at the implementation, does seem to allow two variables, so yes, you can do Blindfolder Arithmetic 16:14:59 and the relationship to CSS appears to be that the implementation's output is in CSS 16:16:07 although, the output is hardcoded to go into the file C:/Users/Dell/Desktop/entry/git/css-script-candy/css_script/output.html, which strikes me as a fairly awkward API 16:16:46 also the output appears to actually be HTML+CSS, not pure CSS 16:19:37 that's a little disappointing, I was secretly hoping it would be CSS with a .html extension 16:22:42 ais523: but doesn't the division operator do floating point division? 16:22:48 also doesn't it use floating point numbers? 16:23:21 if it's fixed size machine floats, then you can't do too much blindfolded arithmetic 16:25:09 hmm 16:25:14 I bet you could do something using floating-point errors 16:25:14 hmm no, it is floor division, but it's still machine floating point 16:25:22 if it really were float division) 16:25:23 64-bit floating point 16:25:32 although it would still be sub-TC due to the floats only having finitely many values 16:25:52 but Python has arbitrary-precision integers 16:26:02 I'm not sure what happens if you add one of those to the floored result of a division 16:26:43 python has arbitrary precision integers, but this impl doesn't do arithmetic on those 16:27:09 https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ/css-script/blob/master/css_script/main.py#L322 16:27:29 float is the built-in floating point type, which uses 64-bit machine floats 16:27:53 unless of course there's some trick elsewhere in that code 16:28:06 it appears to use isdigit() to parse constants 16:29:18 so constants are any strings consisting entirely of digits 16:29:44 I think variables will be stored as Python integers throughout 16:30:02 unless rand/sine/cos/abssine are used 16:30:20 or, hmm, no 16:30:20 was probably posted today to the wiki because it has a function called passover: https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ/css-script/blob/master/css_script/main.py#L351 16:30:34 if you assign a constant to a variable the value seems to be stored as a string (?) 16:30:52 oh, I see 16:31:07 it uses floats to do arithmetic, even though it uses ints to store the result of transcendental operations, and strings to store constants 16:31:21 (constant numbers) 16:32:06 so yes, sub-TC because each program can only have finitely many variables 16:32:19 ais523: no, it uses int to store the input of the transcendental constants, and yes that's weird 16:32:25 err, ints are for the /argument/ to the transcendental operation 16:32:29 * operations 16:32:39 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:32:47 I cannot refute the hypothesis that types in this language were just picked at random until it appeared to work 16:33:32 that said this seems ot be the sort of interpreter where the author just adds the features they need at the time, and they may edit more features into it later as they want to write more programs, so it might just eventually grow more powerful by the time 16:34:18 yes 16:34:24 maybe they'll even get the domain name they want! 16:36:30 ais523: yes, they claim to be a web developer 16:37:20 although they also claim to do "IoT" and "Machine learning" and "Desktop development" so it might just be a fashionable keyword for the cv 16:37:39 I think they're a web developer, just probably not a very good one 16:41:44 also has an introductory programming book at https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ/Think-Python-Fr/blob/master/all_in_one.md , let me see if that has code that looks better 16:46:57 the main issue I note is that the indentation is wrong 16:47:04 which, considering that this is Python, is something of an issue 16:47:21 not always, but sometimes 16:48:54 ah, I see 16:49:04 it's a translation of a book by someone else 16:49:15 "traduction du livre: Think Python, How To Think Like A Computer Scientist d'Allan Downey" 16:49:33 and apparently unfinished, because the formatting goes crazy towards the end 16:51:30 ais523: yes, the indentation of some code got lost somewhere in the conversions 16:53:13 yes, probably because it's in progress 16:54:11 this helps confirm my belief that indentation-sensitivity is too fragile for a serious programming language 16:54:19 because code may be conveyed in formats that don't retain indentation well 16:56:35 Collect a sequence of code points that are ASCII digits from input given position, and interpret the resulting sequence as a base-ten integer. 16:56:50 it goes to a huge amount of trouble to specify everything in great detail, but forgets to specify the endianness here 16:56:56 I wonder if I should submit a bug report 16:57:38 also, apparently -0 is a valid nonnegative integer in HTML, which is interesting as nonnegative integers are defined with a different parser from integers 16:58:02 ah, wait, it isn't 16:58:13 the parser for nonnegative integers will accept it, but you aren't allowed to include a minus sign in the input 16:58:18 the first 9 chapters are formatted correctly and the code indentation looks fine in them 16:58:21 err, a hyphen-minus sign 16:59:13 heh, the endianness of the fractional part of a float /is/ specified, even though the endianness of the integer part isn't 16:59:37 -!- baidicoot has joined. 17:01:24 ais523: where is that from? 17:02:51 I'm reading the HTML standard 17:03:04 probably I won't get through the whole thing 17:03:09 the specific page is https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html 17:04:14 [[Hello today I am a unicorn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70749 * Hakerh400 * (+2592) +[[Hello today I am a unicorn]] 17:04:17 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70750&oldid=70609 * Hakerh400 * (+33) +[[Hello today I am a unicorn]] 17:04:21 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70751&oldid=70591 * Hakerh400 * (+33) +[[Hello today I am a unicorn]] 17:13:48 [[Hello today I am a unicorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70752&oldid=70749 * Ais523 * (+524) explain why this is TC; remove reference list because there aren't any 17:22:15 [[The Great Spell]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70753&oldid=69567 * Qwertyu63 * (-1) 17:23:17 [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70754&oldid=70753 * Qwertyu63 * (+71) 17:25:00 [[Hello today I am a unicorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70755&oldid=70752 * Hakerh400 * (+1) fix typo 17:27:11 [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70756&oldid=70754 * Qwertyu63 * (+17) 17:29:07 [[PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70757&oldid=49066 * Qwertyu63 * (+43) /* Syntax */ 17:29:07 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:30:15 [[PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70758&oldid=70757 * Qwertyu63 * (+29) /* Commands/Moves */ 17:31:20 [[PokBattle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70759&oldid=70758 * Qwertyu63 * (+75) /* Pokemon */ 17:35:58 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:40:46 Petition to start calling categories monoidoid (by analogy with semigroupoid, groupoid) => yesss 17:52:02 no big secret we can do some calculations with affine geometry, dipping an affine space into a one-more-dimensional linear space and treating vectors from this (now) subspace as points and vectors parallel to it as point translation vectors. Introducing exterior algebra, one can even join two points into a line with using plain exterior product ∧ on them. But one can’t join two coplanar lines this way, as they would wedge to zero, b 17:52:02 eing factorizable as a∧b and a∧c for some a, b, c. This boils down to the question, how can I calculate the union of two subspaces in an arbitrary linear space, using exterior algebra elements as representations of subspaces? 17:53:08 (and also intersections, but we can just dualize a working way to do union after finding it) 17:55:09 I read a bit things about “geometric algebra”, which is just an applied real Clifford algebra theory, and I hadn’t found a description of this failure to do meet. They seem to simply take ∧ and I can’t believe no one needed to compute a union of the sort I mentioned 17:55:35 this is suspicious 18:05:47 [[DOGO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70760&oldid=30155 * LegionMammal978 * (+29) /* External resources */ fixed link 18:20:28 `? ayacc 18:20:30 ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc 18:21:10 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70761&oldid=70572 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+121) /* Languages */ 18:23:36 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70762&oldid=70761 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+102) /* Possibly useful regexes */ 18:28:50 [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70763&oldid=70711 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+53) /* FizzBuzz */ Fixed some errors 18:35:36 [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70764&oldid=70763 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+287) 18:36:30 [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70765&oldid=70764 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* FizzBuzz */ 18:39:30 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70766&oldid=69631 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* MineFriff */ Fixing link to ><> and brainf 18:50:09 [[User:Hakerh400/How to write quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70767&oldid=69424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Initial draft */ typo fixed 19:07:31 this is suspicious => ah now I at least see why those linear meet and join need to evaluate to zero in the unfortunate cases. If the orientation of the result cannot be determined uniquely from orientations of the arguments, then zero is the only sensible option. Maybe I need to find another framework for affine subspace operations, then 19:07:47 unfortunate, unfortunate 19:30:04 by analogy with monoidoid and monoid, what is a mon? 19:32:49 ais523: mon is abbreviation for Monday 19:34:07 I don't think that works category-theoretically 19:38:52 good night. 19:38:56 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:39:51 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70768&oldid=70743 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+346) /* Auto-formatting */ 19:45:19 [[Dc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70769&oldid=55321 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 19:45:49 Why did I rekindle my interest in Tcl? It's a ridiculously unsafe language if used wrong, and whenever I write Tcl code I invariably end up with a memory leak because of fundamental limitations to its GC 19:50:04 [[DcScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70770&oldid=69670 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 19:50:23 because it's incredibly tempting. 19:58:03 I don't know much Tcl 19:58:16 it looks intruiging but I've never had a sufficiently compelling use case for it to be worth learning it 19:58:24 (although, I did learn enough to add it to the polyglot) 20:01:37 I seem to recall Eggdrop was scripted most commonly in Tcl. 20:01:44 b_jonas: why the check of ayacc, incidentally? 20:01:46 Some of the building of SQLite and its documentation is using Tcl, I think. 20:01:50 I can currently work on it a bit more freely than usual 20:01:53 but haven't had a need to 20:04:36 ais523: someone on IRC mentioned that they made a different custom yacc for some project they need, plus a lexer to go with it 20:04:56 ais523: http://repo.hu/projects/byaccic/ with a push parser (stackless) 20:05:22 (Although, I think the coding for generating source files should be written in C and/or shell scripts, the coding for documentation generation should be written in PostScript, and the testing codes should be both Tcl and C.) 20:05:29 also they searched for "ayacc" on google and found a different yacc that generates ada code or some such 20:05:39 https://github.com/Ada-France/ayacc 20:05:44 apparently the name is not unique enough 20:06:30 maybe you should have called it aiyacc 20:07:09 Some things are going to have the same name due to not knowing that is something else called that, I will think, and other reasons too 20:07:45 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:07:47 Another alternative to yacc is Lemon 20:08:05 zzo38: we did look at that, but we agreed with ais523 that we don't like its interface 20:08:30 I have been planning a more radical parser framework of my own, separate from ayacc (which exists to run pre-existing yacc programs) 20:08:53 oh no... not a framework. I hate frameworks 20:09:03 those are always the worst software to actually work with 20:09:04 well, not a framework in /that/ sense, probably at least 20:09:13 the basic idea is to combine the parse and lex phases via allowing the use of a state machine (effectively a regular expression) to do lookahead 20:09:51 Yes, if you do not like Lemon, then you do not have to use it, although I like the features of Lemon (although the documentation for Lemon now says that apparently Bison also has some of these features too, so it will work too). 20:09:52 this means that if the grammar requires unlimited lookahead to function correctly (which it will in many cases), you will still need two passes over the input, although this time the first one goes backwards and the second one goes forwards 20:10:06 zzo38: which specific features do you like? 20:10:39 the other basic idea is, instead of running user-supplied code to split the input into data structures, to use optimized general-purpose data structures that are more efficient than linked trees 20:11:07 although this means they can't be changed in-place, rather code that manipulates them works by treewalking an existing tree and creating a new tree as it does so 20:11:28 the idea is to take advantage of vectorisation and memory locality 20:11:41 That you can have multiple parsers. 20:11:59 The tokenizer calling the parser is also useful for some programs. 20:12:24 multiple parsers are trivial to implement even in yacc 20:12:35 by adding an extra token at the start to choose between them 20:12:41 although ayacc allows a more direct API for that 20:12:48 -!- Maris has joined. 20:13:04 ohi 20:13:19 hi Maris 20:13:39 The %fallback command is also useful for some programs, such as SQLite, and so are some of the other commands. 20:17:14 ais523: O, OK. I should look at the ayacc, although it is just a 403 error apparently because it requires darcs to work (although maybe 406 is better, or perhaps is better for it to download the files anyways, such as in a tape archive) 20:20:41 zzo38: I can try to create a tarball for you, give me a moment 20:21:54 zzo38: try http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz 20:22:21 although, it will unpack into a folder called "mainline" 20:22:27 it's actually ayacc though 20:23:26 OK, I downloaded that. 20:23:27 zzo38: fun, that's what everyone complains about. I just pasted it temporarily to https://dpaste.org/qorS/raw though. 20:23:49 -!- baidicoot has joined. 20:24:26 `? ayacc 20:24:27 ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc 20:24:45 `learn ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc 20:24:48 Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc 20:24:55 hmm no wait 20:24:57 `? rules of wisdom 20:24:59 unless essential for the entry‘s humor, \ they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation 20:25:28 `learn ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) . 20:25:30 Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz or from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) . 20:25:38 b_jonas: the pastebin thing is only temporary, I think 20:25:40 is that the proper punctuation? or do I double-quote the first url? 20:25:41 because it won't automatically update 20:25:45 You should fix the error message so that it tells you to use darcs or to download the .tar.gz file. 20:25:49 ais523: yes, I said I temporarily pasted it there 20:26:03 b_jonas: no, I mean the NH4 pastebin 20:26:07 oh 20:26:12 also, I believe the proper quotes for a URL are <> 20:26:24 ais523: no, it's either double quotes or angle brackets, and I prefer double quotes 20:26:26 I'm not sure on the proper quotes for a shell command, but I like «» because anything else seems potentially ambiguous 20:26:39 I use parens for a shell command because that's actual shell syntax 20:27:11 `learn ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) or a snapshot from "http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz". 20:27:14 Relearned 'ayacc': ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from (darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc) or a snapshot from "http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ayacc-2020-04.tar.gz". 20:27:36 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:28:19 oh, parens are plausible, they'd be no-ops in most circumstances 20:28:32 although not in cases where the command would run differently in a subshell 20:28:44 there's a difference between «cd /tmp» and «(cd /tmp)» 20:33:17 -!- Maris has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:33:46 -!- nona has joined. 20:39:17 ais523: I'm not sure it even makes sense to embed a shell command that doesn't run in a subshell into non-shell text. is there a shared library version of the shell that can run in other processes to do that? 20:39:35 like for that cd thing 20:41:32 b_jonas: you clearly haven't come across /bin/cd yet 20:41:49 although admittedly that one was a joke 20:42:00 you can embed perl or python that way and call their chdir functions and it affects the whole process 20:42:13 although, if you're giving someone instructions 20:42:23 it makes sense to intersperse shell commands and text, doesn't it? 20:42:34 yeah, it can make sense 20:43:09 maybe someone made a literate shell syntax somewhere, where every line not prefixed with a > is a comment that is used only when you typeset the program 20:43:32 but the embeddable shell library sounds more esoteric 20:45:01 why do languages have their own literate syntaxes, anyway? 20:45:20 wouldn't it be more sensible to have a document format designed for literal programming, that can compile into a programming language? 20:45:26 but it doesn't care about which one you're using 20:46:01 ais523: there is such a generic preprocessor I think, but the problem is that a lot of languages use most ascii characters, so there's no single quote format that's convenient for everything 20:46:17 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:47:01 well, prefixing lines with > is pretty convenient for everything 20:47:36 that can't possibly clash with anything in the program, the only potential clashes would be with the /document/ 20:47:50 ais523: sure, but then you want to refer to code snippets in the documentation part, and that's what gets ugly in them, as well as in all the javadoc/doxygen syntaxes too 20:48:10 you mean, without them running? 20:48:12 also some preprocessors allow you to change some or all of the magic characters, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor) 20:48:31 that seems to contradict the idea of literate programming a little 20:48:36 ais523: usually yes, but I think CWEB even has some preprocessor macro thing that it can insert into code blocks or something 20:48:50 incidentally, I realised that POD is a sort of mix between literate and illiterate programming 20:48:57 I don't really know how this works, I don't really like literate programming so I never use it 20:48:58 instead of having a comment marker for non-code, or a code marker for code 20:49:12 having comment blocks and comment headers, doxygen-like, that's fine 20:49:12 it has separators that are placed between code and non-code (and vice versa) 20:49:25 and having a preprocessor can be interesting too 20:49:39 ah, as the topic was about parsing a while back, how often do you encounter regex libraries supporting streams of arbitrary objects and not just characters? and maybe regexes for tree-like structures, do those exist at all? 20:50:25 the former definitely should exist, but maybe doesn't 20:50:38 what properties do these arbitrary objects have that distinguishes them from characters? 20:50:40 I was actually thinking of a preprocessor variant of Consumer Society too. It needs three magic characters, but you can't find three convenient characters that work in all programming languages, so you'd use eg. `@$ in C but `?$ in python or something 20:51:07 and I think `$~ in rust 20:51:25 CWEB also has the commands to specify if the next section is a named program block, unnamed program block, or documentation; you don't need any prefix for each line. WEB does more preprocessing though, in order to implement things that Pascal doesn't do by itself (although some modern implementations will do those things automatically). 20:51:27 arseniiv: there are regex libraries that support arbitrary byte streams 20:51:38 isn't @ unused in Rust at the moment? 20:51:42 ais523: no 20:51:48 ah, it got recycled? 20:51:48 ais523: @ is used for bind patterns like in haskell 20:51:51 also do you like parser combinators receiving arbitrary tokens and not just characters, and how much useful do you think is parser-driven tokenization (when the source can be tokenized differently based on what parser expects) 20:52:33 arseniiv: parser-driven tokenization is required for some languages, if you want to have a separate parser and lexer 20:52:43 but I think combining the parser and lexer is a more interesting goal 20:52:45 ais523: as in if let x@C(y,z) = t { # matches if t has the constructor C, and binds fresh variables x, y, z 20:53:01 $ is used for metaprogramming though, also like in haskell 20:53:17 parser-driven tokenization is really confusing, though, so it's normally avoided where it isn't required 20:53:28 b_jonas: Python has byte stream regexes too, though there’s a strange issue with named group names (non-ASCII names allowed for some reason) 20:53:40 I think PCRE supports byte streams (it can also use UTF-8 though). 20:53:42 an example of where it's used in practice is parsing precedence overrides in C-INTERCAL 20:54:26 SIMPLE allows you to override each of its magic characters, but that doesn't help you too much if you want convenient syntax, because it has like a dozen magic characters 20:54:40 parser-driven tokenization is really confusing, though, so it's normally avoided where it isn't required => I was afraid that would be the case, and that’s why it came to mind to ask, yeah 20:54:41 it's also hard to use for other reasons 20:55:18 arseniiv: it's worth mentioning that INTERCAL's grammar is actually ambiguous 20:55:29 I wish I could definitely claim that it's esoteric, but there is a little evidence that David wrote it to preprocess some HTML files that are non-esoteric originally, so it's not pure esoteric in purpose 20:55:33 the INTERCAL-72 manual has a note which basically just says "don't write programs that do that, it probably won't work" 20:56:30 and there are some programs which are technically unambiguous but need infinite lookahead to sort the "ambiguity" out, so C-INTERCAL can pick the wrong parse earlier on 20:56:48 (the manual gives it explicit permission to do that, though, probably because the original implementation had the same problem!) 20:56:53 ais523: well, INTERCAL was created when ambiguous FORTRAN was one of the most used programming languages, so it makes sense that it takes _that_ feature from it 20:57:10 what's the ambiguity in FORTRAN? 20:57:26 ais523: I think it's not actually ambiguous, just requires too much lookahead 20:57:30 I'm not sure 20:57:52 what properties do these arbitrary objects have that distinguishes them from characters? => for example they can be a countable set, but nonetheless with several known subsets and constants to use in matching. Though that still can be encoded via byte sequences, yeah 20:57:55 something like in basic where it doesn't require whitespace, so DOFOO=2 is an assignment, DO FOO=2,3 is a loop head, but the space doesn't matter 20:58:02 and the 2 can be a complicated expression 20:58:26 just like A XOR 1 vs AX OR 1 in some old basic interpreters 20:58:28 I'm not used to FORTRAN program using multiple-character variable names :-D 20:58:41 ais523: what, they can have variable names up to 6 characters 20:58:46 b_jonas: oh, there's an ambiguity like that in INTERCAL too! 20:58:48 that's much better than basic, with its 2 characters 20:58:59 DO READ OUT #1 versus DO REA DO UT #1 20:59:21 that one caught out a few lesser-known INTERCAL interpreters when people started golfing 20:59:22 Can you put parentheses to resolve the ambiguity? 20:59:37 zzo38: INTERCAL doesn't use parentheses as precedence overrides 20:59:40 At least some BASIC programs I have seen they only use one letter for variable names, sometimes followed by digits too 20:59:46 ais523: Yes, I mean in BASIC 20:59:55 however it has two different precedence override syntaxes and you can always solve an ambiguity caused by one by using the other instead 20:59:58 ais523: wait, how is that disambiguated? 21:00:03 and what's UT? 21:00:11 b_jonas: it isn't but syntax errors are legal in INTERCAL 21:00:13 does that work only when the statement is only ran when ignored? 21:00:16 yeah 21:00:43 I think all current interpreters arbitrarily ignore the DO in DO READOUT, at least if the statement is otherwise syntactically valid 21:00:45 zzo38: yes, one letter is shorter 21:00:53 it's unclear whether this is the correct course of action or not 21:01:02 but it's INTERCAL, the spec is not exactly the most unambiguous of things 21:01:32 incidentally, at least one INTERCAL programmer has seriously argued that spaces should be permitted inside keywords and even inside numerical constants and variable names 21:01:41 but that isn't widely implemented 21:01:47 however it has two different precedence override syntaxes and you can always solve an ambiguity caused by one by using the other instead => esoteric 21:02:24 arseniiv: Google's style guide suggests alternating between them to a) avoid any risk of an ambiguity that confuses the compiler, b) make it easier to read for a human 21:02:38 ais523: are they storing INTERCAL programs on 5-bit ticker tape? 21:03:01 I don't think so 21:03:08 ais523: wait, there’s a Google style guide for INTERCAL? :o 21:03:10 or transfer it by 5-bit modem? 21:03:15 in fact there's no real evidence that Google has written any more than one INTERCAL program 21:03:22 arseniiv: it was part of their April Fools thing one year 21:03:47 Tcl's return is... complicated. 21:03:57 ais523: that’s probably neat :F 21:03:59 :D * 21:04:13 it's offline nowadays, and the Internet Archive is down 21:04:19 I have a saved local copy but will need to check the license before rehosting it 21:04:38 don’t worry, the sole existence of it is enough for me :) 21:05:09 I don’t know enough INTERCAL to appreciate the style guide sufficiently 21:05:17 (maybe) 21:05:23 the funny thing is, their INTERCAL program had a bug (or at least a nonportability) 21:05:30 I sent them a pull request and they gave me commit access 21:05:39 the repo ceased to exist shortly afterwards, when they closed the repo host 21:05:50 so I was probably the only person outside Google to ever have commit access to it 21:06:31 ugh, no explicit license on the repo :-( 21:06:35 so I guess it's default-all-rights-reserved 21:06:48 so I was probably the only person outside Google to ever have commit access to it => hehe 21:07:54 oh, btw if someone uses Freesound.org, they had an anniversary a couple days ago 21:09:23 hmm, I found an archive of the program itself, on a Google host, with an apache2 license on it 21:09:29 unfortunately the style guide is not in the same archive 21:10:24 thus the license doesn't apply to it 21:13:15 -!- baidicoot has joined. 21:18:07 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:21:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 21:33:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:36:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:36:35 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:49:11 [[Derpcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70771&oldid=59452 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 22:11:51 -!- nona has quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)). 22:28:58 -!- baidicoot has joined. 22:37:55 -!- baidicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:50:54 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 22:53:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:57:22 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:11:48 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:12:23 -!- tromp has joined. 23:23:07 -!- baidicoot has joined. 23:25:14 -!- baidicoot has quit (Client Quit). 23:34:36 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 2020-04-09: 00:37:54 [[MyScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70772&oldid=70448 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Functions */ 00:45:16 [[Symbols]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70773&oldid=63960 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Javascript */ fixing varName 02:05:03 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 03:36:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:49:03 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 03:56:50 Why does a "cure heart" decrease your health from 121 to 100? 06:32:01 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70774&oldid=70689 * Luke1337 * (-362) Undo revision 53161 by [[Special:Contributions/Luke1337|Luke1337]] ([[User talk:Luke1337|talk]]) 06:40:32 [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70775&oldid=60033 * Luke1337 * (-120) This implementation claims to "fix" bugs but diff reveals it actually doesn't; fails test case; incorrect handling of ''; inelegant wraparound handling; outdated etc. 07:10:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 07:50:28 zzo38: maybe it drains some of your general or average health to fix a problem specifically in your heart, and you should use that spell only if you have a risk of heart problems and can afford some of the health of the rest of your body, as in your liver? 07:51:41 It's like many real world medications, they can't magically add health to you, but they can redirect your body to focus to something more in exchange of something else, like in the tradeoff between antibiotics vs antihistamines. 07:53:09 Antibiotics can kill a bacterial infection, but in exchange you get worse allergies, so if you have both bacterial infections and allergies it's hard to cure, which is one of the big difficulty with organ transplantation. 07:57:59 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:01:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:04:24 neoletters has been updated with better arabic 08:09:30 it also now includes two letters from the language "poliespo" invented by a esperantist murderer 08:14:18 specifically "overstruck p and w" and "overstruck t and v" 08:14:39 encoded at  and  respectively 08:29:18 [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70776&oldid=63150 * Salpynx * (+104) /* Languages I have created */ Isthmus Cyclicus Crypticus 08:38:58 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70777&oldid=62050 * IFcoltransG * (+292) /* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */ Devil's advocate 08:50:31 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 09:34:52 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:36:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:36:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:48:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:56:56 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:01:27 -!- MDude has joined. 10:41:20 For a long time I've held this conjecture: the weakest computational class in which a self-interpreter can be written, is Turing-complete. 10:42:50 This was based on the observation that there is no primite-recursive function which can interpret arbitrary primitive recursive functions, and other examples like that. 10:43:11 But I've known this is just a conjecture, and I'm very interested in counter-examples. 10:43:55 And I think I found one the other day but I haven't looked into it yet. 10:45:26 http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/popl16/ 10:45:51 Which claims to be an interpreter for F_omega, written in F_omega. 10:46:33 Now, I also understand that F_omega is strongly normalizing, which means F_omega programs always terminate, which means F_omega is *not* Turing-complete. 10:48:10 Although what computability class F_omega represents, I don't know. I imagine that it is at least primitive recursive, and probably beyond primitive recursive to some degree. i.e. I would not be surprised if you could write the Ackermann function in F_omega. But again, I don't really know, yet. 10:50:30 I don't know much about F_omega except that it's one corner of the lambda cube. Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than "From a computing point of view, λω is extremely strong, and has been considered as a basis for programming languages", which I guess would be consistent with this result. 10:51:14 Oh sorry, that's lambda_omega, not F_omega 10:51:31 WP says even less about F_omega. 10:52:18 What the heck is lambda_omega anyway. 10:53:36 Uh, sounds like F_omega and lambda_omega could be the same thing? 10:53:44 Well anyway. 10:54:55 I guess I should try to read the papers. 11:12:12 -!- xelxebar has joined. 11:18:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 11:23:59 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:24:13 -!- tromp has joined. 12:28:46 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:37:17 There is another, much older result related to that conjecture I mentioned earlier, which is this: there's a CFL that's "CFL-complete" in the sense that it's as least as complex to parse it, as it is to parse any other CFL. But I don't know if that counts as "universal" in the same sense as a self-interpreter does. It's certainly similar in some ways though. 12:39:15 Pretty sure that result was by Greibach in the 1970's though I can't find my notes on it atm. 12:47:53 Aha, found it: https://epubs.siam.org/doi/10.1137/0202025 12:50:09 IIRC, the CFG constructed in that paper takes a string and a description of a CFG and accepts iff the given CFG accepts the string. 12:50:43 Which sounds like a "universal CFG" to me. 12:56:18 `olist 1199 12:56:18 olist 1199: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 12:57:48 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:14:51 -!- kiedtl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:17:04 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:18:00 -!- xelxebar has joined. 13:20:36 [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70778&oldid=68935 * LegionMammal978 * (-10) fixed link 13:22:17 int-e: I think I properly fixed the proof for the generalized W rule, see latest commit 13:38:31 [[ESOPUNK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70779&oldid=58027 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) /* Interpreters */ updated link 13:44:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:45:06 For a long time I've held this conjecture: the weakest computational class in which a self-interpreter can be written, is Turing-complete. ← what about "the language where all programs do nothing"? that can self-interpret 13:45:11 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:45:14 and has a very weak computational class 13:45:24 I think the question needs to be formulated more precisely, but am not sure how 13:45:58 -!- birdt has joined. 13:47:05 Nah that's probably just false... there seems nothing in a self-interpreter that makes a language more expressive than it already is. 13:47:16 (You can add it as a primitive if all else fails.) 13:47:44 [[ETalk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70780&oldid=13379 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 13:48:03 -!- birdt has quit (Quit: Fucking off.). 13:48:30 ah right, "weak language + self-interpreting primitive" makes for another good counterexample 13:49:03 I was also going to mention things like Easy but I think that's naturally TC 13:49:16 given that it embeds BF 13:51:44 I'm not saying it's not an interesting question though. Also the question of what adding self-interpretation does to a model of computation may be interesting, too. For example, it seems that PR (primitive recursion) + interpreter for PR (with a sane encoding for functions that can be manipulated with primitive recursive functions) goes beyond PR (because it escapes the leveling restriction). 13:53:16 `? olist 13:53:18 olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html 13:53:23 lmao what 13:53:57 (Actually, if we call that PR'... PR' is not obviously capable of self-interpretation. I suspect it's not...) 13:55:00 kspalaiologos: there's a few of those 13:55:50 `? slist 13:55:52 Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck. 13:55:54 `? smlist 13:55:56 Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega. 13:56:03 `listlist 13:56:06 FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ bobadventureslist* \ calesyta2016list* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ testlist* \ xkcdwhatiflist* \ ysaclist* 13:56:17 `listlistlist 13:56:18 listlistlist? No such file or directory 13:56:29 heh, stylist 13:56:52 `? calesyta2016list 13:56:53 calesyta2016list? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:57:00 this one can probably be removed :P 13:57:08 `? mlist 13:57:09 mlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:57:30 `hbrl mlist 13:57:31 hbrl? No such file or directory 13:57:35 aww 13:57:40 `hurl ../bin/mlist 13:57:41 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/mlist 13:59:37 int-e: in "the language where all programs do nothing", all programs are self-interpreters. You could add "non-trivial" to exclude this. 14:01:25 "mlist" is obscure... https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-03-03.html#lRj ... I don't get it. 14:01:48 cpressey: ais523 made that point; I actually made it non-trivial. 14:01:53 And much like how we can forbid "cheating quines" like 10 LIST 10 in BASIC, we can forbid any language that has a "self-interpret instruction". 14:02:15 that's hard though 14:02:29 Any language where you have a self-interpret instruction, but it's not *obviously* a self-interpret instruction, is fair game 14:03:41 int-e: I was alluding to the technical meaning of "non-trivial" like it's used in Rice's theorem, but yes, ok, whatever, it's not important 14:03:59 Oh sorry yes 14:04:01 There's a huge spectrum between strange machines that accidentally can interpret your language to something like a bytecode interpreter to interpreting the language itself. 14:04:09 I meant to reply to ais523 14:04:54 Arguably you want to draw the line between the first two categories, and that seems to be very hard to capture formally to me. 14:05:18 I'd be interested to know what languages F_omega can and can't recognize 14:05:54 It must be more than PR, but less than RE 14:06:07 `? F_ω 14:06:09 F_ω? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:06:15 (I should probably know this) 14:06:33 eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F#System_F%CF%89 14:08:07 Ah, there's also an implementation of Coq in Coq, which (assuming it's legit and not cheating somehow) suggests a similar thing might stand for that other corner of the lambda cube 14:10:28 cpressey: in "http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2017-08-18.2460.html" the article that defines the (0) esolang, David Madore explains how you should define "self-interpreter" in a language that can't self-interpret in a traditional sense, like one that has only the power of primitive recursive 14:11:48 in particular, if you restrict (0) to integer inputs, it's exactly as powerful as primitive recursive (BLoop), but he needs more generality than that there 14:13:37 namely he wants to know what the easiest way is to prove that certain of those languages are equipowerful, and their computational complexity isn't as well known as the primitive recursive or the turing complete thing, and the only proof he knows is a really difficult one via such a full interpreter, which is annoying 14:21:48 cpressey: Does it show that though? You'd have to check what kind of axioms the formalization uses. 14:25:57 int-e: That's what I meant by "assuming it's legit". I was in fact assuming it was invoking some kind of cheat, until I came across the F_omega self-interpreter paper - now I'm not so sure. 14:26:54 Well, I'm not convinced the F_omega thing isn't cheating somehow too. But I really just need to sit down and read it. 14:28:49 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 14:38:36 int-e: Wait though. Say you have an interpreter for language L, and L is in computational class C. Then you add a self-interpret instruction to L to obtain L'. L' might no longer be in computational class C. So you haven't shown anything about computational class C by doing this. 14:39:02 (This is in response to your "That's probably just false".) 14:39:10 Been down that path (see PR' above) 14:39:47 Obviously the self-interpreter should take itself into account. This /may/ push it into RE territory. 14:40:31 (because at least naively it involves some sort of fixed point) 14:41:14 OK, yes. I was thinking "add to L an instruction that interprets L programs", that's not quite the same thing 14:42:02 Yes, there are lots of knobs to tweak here. 14:47:24 [[Element]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70781&oldid=69991 * LegionMammal978 * (-20) /* Interpreter */ fixed link 14:56:08 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:56:26 -!- MDude has joined. 15:05:23 I find it hard to see how Coq could self-interpret, assuming it's consistent 15:05:35 if it's consistent it can't typecheck itself, thus it can't prove a Coq program is total 15:05:51 this means that you can't prove that the self-interpreter itself exits, so the program as a whole won't typecheck 15:07:41 isn't type checking still decidable 15:07:51 (in CoC) 15:08:27 int-e: yes, but you need something more powerful than the CoC itself to decide it 15:08:44 ais523: see above, there's an alternate definition for self-interpreter that works for self-interpreters in languages like BLoop 15:08:59 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70782&oldid=70106 * Palaiologos * (+540) up-to-date stuff 15:09:26 b_jonas: I'm really slow at reading French though 15:09:28 ais523: basically you define a function that takes a program and a number, and the function interprets the program except it stops after as many steps as that number 15:09:33 and need to look up words sometimes 15:09:36 the number is called fuel 15:09:43 yes, me too 15:09:46 b_jonas: ah right, the "run this program for this many steps" function 15:09:52 that's much easier to implement than a true self-interpreter 15:10:12 "easier" hehe 15:10:17 Hmm, do the inductive definitions add power? 15:10:20 kspalaiologos: aren't there six general-purpose registers now? 15:10:30 the article still says four, and then names six of them 15:10:30 yes yes 15:10:35 I may have overlooked that 15:10:40 sorry 15:10:55 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:11:02 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70783&oldid=70782 * Palaiologos * (-1) 15:11:05 done 15:11:09 it's OK, I just thought I'd let you know the mistake while you're around to fix it 15:11:14 yes, thanks 15:11:20 I really appreciate it 15:11:34 a long time ago I was writing my own asm-for-BF, and a gcc backend to targe it 15:11:45 but the code has been lost, I think, due to gcc being too large to fit in my backups 15:11:50 cool, what kind of ISA did you have? 15:11:54 also I remember I stalled trying to find a good multiplication algorithm 15:11:55 I' 15:12:12 m going to either for Watcom C or my own compiler 15:12:23 the ISA was very bf-specific, it contained instructions like tadd x, y (which sets x to x + y and y to 0) 15:12:38 also I've made a c=>brainfuck compiler before supporting C89, but it outputs too big binaries to be reasonable 15:12:41 and the stack pointer was magical 15:12:44 haha 15:12:44 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:12:54 you actually dont need a stack pointer 15:12:57 believe me or not 15:13:05 anyway, gcc wasn't as flexible as I wanted, it made too many assumptions which weren't correct in a BF context 15:13:15 yeah I'm working with Watcom C for a while now 15:13:20 kspalaiologos: I think you do if you want to work with gcc's backend 15:13:27 it's quite hard to get pre-existing C compilers to implement recursion without one 15:13:36 (even though it is of course theoretically possible, they just aren't set up to use alternative methods) 15:13:44 outputs simple yet beautifully small 8086 assembly 15:13:53 I've got a push/pop only stack for now 15:13:59 I plan or adding effective adresses soon 15:14:11 so you can like do [sp-5] to get 5th element from the top 15:14:12 oh, the stack pointer as a non-accessible register 15:14:14 I think I did it like that too 15:14:17 but sp isn't actually a register 15:14:24 it doesn't exist and the value is unknown 15:14:29 yet it still works ;) 15:14:36 I had 64 general-purpose registers because general-purpose registers are cheap in BF 15:14:47 (I was targeting a BF interpreter that used RLE optimization internally) 15:14:58 I've split the memory into permagen with registers and temps, stack of definable size and peek/poke taperam 15:15:24 now I'm working on general fixes involving infrastructure to make it more welcoming to beginners (although there aren't any) 15:15:39 my split was GP registers, followed by interleaved stack and heap and temps 15:15:50 interesting 15:15:57 (most of the temps were for navigational purposes, to remember where you were when moving between GP registers and stack/heap) 15:15:58 my stack and taperam are actually separate from each other 15:16:06 yeah 15:16:17 as far as I remember my permagen is just 20 brainfuck cells big 15:16:22 and it supports very complex operations 15:16:37 and soon I plan on creating a virtual machine that would hint the brainfuck interpreter about the assembly code so you can debug asm2bf eaisly and test your programs 15:17:00 I vaguely remember a point in the code where I multiplied something by 128 to determine whether it was odd or even 15:17:06 so I assume I was targetting 8-bit wrapping 15:17:08 haha 15:17:12 right 15:17:24 my ISA assumes 16-bit cells, but it runs just fine on smaller cells aswell 15:17:31 and on bignum cells too 15:17:52 because it becomes a bit hairy if you run an 8bit interpreter, because you can index just 256b of taperam 15:18:25 but I've got a bconv program that translated 16-bit compiliant bf code to 8bit compiliant one 15:18:28 I used multiple consecutive cells to hold addresses 15:18:32 just like real CPUs do 15:18:49 ^ we don't use segment:offset adressing since 90's :p 15:19:00 a relic of the past, 64-bit adress lines are here 15:19:13 but I've implemented segments as well 15:19:16 for god knows what reason 15:19:18 well, we still use multiple consecutive bytes to hold our 64-bit addresses 15:19:18 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70784&oldid=68928 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 15:19:26 yes but you've got cells in brainfuck 15:19:33 hmm, now I'm wondering what the fastest algorithm to seek to a cell by number is 15:19:36 and a cell doesn't map to a byte really 15:19:58 you can look it up in my code 15:20:04 you'd want to drag the number with you rather than going back each time to decrement it 15:20:12 -!- imode has joined. 15:20:27 yeah possibly 15:20:36 but I'll make a VM that will execute these programs faster 15:20:50 so it doesn't bother me at all, because it works as brainfuck and VM is just a performance perk 15:21:03 the same will go with my to-malbolge-private-compiler-suite 15:21:55 I plan on implementing aliases rn 15:22:11 like this: https://pastebin.com/raw/xdEqY8x4 15:22:24 another thing I've been thinking about is SSA compilation of counter machines (including balanced parts of brainfuck programs) 15:22:27 or arguably "decompilation" 15:22:36 aa right 15:22:40 I once got interested in this 15:22:47 but never got to creating such a tool to perform this 15:23:09 because I laid a lot of requirements (like the brainfuck to 2/3 register counter machine compiler) 15:23:36 no sorry 15:23:43 I started, but got stuck because I didn't have clear enough rules for what was allowed to refer to what and what changed in the PHI nodes 15:23:44 I meant inf cell brainfuck to 3 cell brainfuck 15:23:53 whats a phi node 15:24:01 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/ssapmmn.tar.gz if you (or anyone else) is interested 15:24:18 kspalaiologos: well, the point of SSA is that nothing ever changes, you create new variables rather than overwriting old ones 15:24:31 but if the program contains any loops, at some point you have to overwrite an old variable with a new value 15:24:37 because you only have finitely many 15:24:49 good old C code utilizing lex/yacc 15:24:53 that's what I wanted to see today 15:24:58 and a phi node is one of the tricks used to do that, it defines a variable to mean one of two different things depending on the history of the code's control flow 15:25:03 love it already without reading the code 15:25:17 how do you want to analize the control flow history 15:25:28 I don't think I understand it well enough to implement it correctly :-D 15:25:51 it 15:25:55 's massive though 15:26:10 but if you view things at the asm level, it's as simple as putting a phi node at a goto target and checking to see whether you got there via goto or via falling into it 15:26:22 also I wonder is there a C interpreter for rle-based brainfuck already 15:26:25 or I'll have to code it myself late 15:26:31 there are loads, I think 15:26:38 because rn I'm decompressing the code and then running it but it's stupid very 15:26:42 the problem being that there are /so many/ BF interpreters that finding the right one is hard 15:26:48 yep 15:27:29 you could probably just modify a BF Joust interpreter, RLE is part of the spec in BF Joust (although timing is also part of the spec so they will loop over RLEd sections one command at a time) 15:27:41 the bigger problem would be finding an optimizing interpreter that takes RLE as input 15:30:42 I've been meaning at some point to redo SSAPMMN but with more rigorous rules for how the internal asm-like format works, and accepting languages like BF, The Waterfall Model, etc., not just PMMN 15:50:50 ais523: Bill Buzbee's retargeting a C compiler to Magic-1 is like that. Magic-1 has an accumulator instr set, sort of like 6502, so he lied to the compiler that there are 8 gp registers, but those are actually in memory 15:50:58 http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ 15:51:43 only Magic-1 does not have zero-page addressing 15:51:53 [[EnilKode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70785&oldid=69288 * EnilKoder * (-41) 15:58:24 yes I've seen that going on 15:58:28 it's quite normal 15:58:40 when implementing Subleq to Brainfuck translator/interpreter (yes) 15:58:44 that's what I did 16:11:01 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:13:27 -!- diverger has joined. 16:23:39 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:41:08 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 16:56:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 16:56:49 -!- xelxebar has joined. 17:12:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:14:01 -!- xelxebar has joined. 17:28:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:29:39 -!- tromp has joined. 17:58:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:59:37 -!- sprocklem has joined. 17:59:39 [[First.go]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70786&oldid=55956 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 18:05:22 tromp: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/ is what I've been playing with (Kolmogorov complexity with open (self-delimited) inputs). The equivalent of pairup is 853 bits at the moment; I think that's not too bad compared to the 657. 18:05:43 (for KP) 18:06:37 tromp: I'll look at the proof over the weekend. I think I want to have a look at the April Ponder This challenge first. 18:10:05 i should look at that Ponder too 18:15:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: reboting). 18:17:20 tromp: you might enjoy https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/I1_c.lam which is a 71 bit length function (which is a bit shorter than what I've found in the AIT repo). 18:17:52 err, make that 69 18:50:29 -!- ARCUN has joined. 18:54:45 [[FuckbeEs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70787&oldid=53228 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 19:02:43 -!- noomy has changed nick to MoonyTheDwarf. 19:03:05 -!- kmc has changed nick to kmcallister. 19:03:07 -!- kmcallister has changed nick to kmc. 19:03:07 -!- MoonyTheDwarf has changed nick to noomy. 19:05:02 b_jonas: if the registers are actually in memory, why not have lots of them? register spills are a disaster in such an architecture because you're copying things from one memory location to another for no good reason 19:05:19 actually, I'd say otherwise 19:05:22 and providing additional registers in such an architecture is very cheap 19:05:51 in RLE'd BF, providing additional registers is actually free because seeking to a fixed address has a constant cost regardless of the distance 19:06:06 I mean if you're keen on making zillions of registers, then go ahead and index the whole tape 19:06:16 but remember that you need a stack and taperam going 19:06:24 and this makes things hairy 19:06:28 why not operate on memory references then 19:06:31 instead of registers 19:06:40 add [0], [3] 19:06:57 if the memory addresses have fixed locations on the tape then that's fine 19:07:04 but I don't see a reason why they necessarily would 19:07:08 they can be arbitrary aswell 19:07:23 and if you're feeling eccentric enough, they can be nested 19:07:50 I think I can see an argument for a zero-register construction 19:08:05 I can't see an argument for a construction that has a number of general-purpose registers that's greater than zero, but small, though 19:08:40 I've got 6 registers now 19:08:45 and I think it's surely enough, at least for the time being 19:08:58 I'm sure I'll extend it the later day, but remember that RLE'd brainfuck ain't a standard 19:09:16 I've gone exactly through the same mindset as you, so my C compiler produces a 12MB brainfuck binary :v) 19:09:32 *"binary" <- not a binary actually, just the output file 19:10:09 I plan on adding a register or two for effective adresses 19:10:17 and a couple of registers for the floating point operations 19:11:01 how do you implement multiplication, btw? just a repeated addition loop? 19:11:14 part of my motivation for using an 8-bit tape was to prevent operations like that being very slow 19:11:21 1[d+1-]d[2[1+e+2-]e[2+e-]d-] 19:11:38 right, that looks like a repeated addition loop to me 19:11:41 I preserve the registers aswell 19:11:44 I felt that that wouldn't have the sort of performance I wanted 19:11:53 what more do you want, I doubt one can do something about it 19:12:05 and if it's actually possible to do that in a better way 19:12:09 I'll happily learn how 19:12:39 I'm not sure you can do something about it, either 19:12:48 this is the point at which I gave up on my C-to-BF compiler 19:12:55 because i couldn't find a solution to this that I was satisfied with 19:13:22 ofc, optimizing BF compilers will recognise that sort of multiply and optimize it out anyway 19:13:30 so maybe it isn't a real issue in practice 19:13:56 >worrying about brainfuck code performance 19:14:00 well 19:14:25 Anyone here who could support an arxiv submission of an Egel paper of mine? 19:14:30 why can't I worry about BF performance? 19:14:49 you obviously can 19:14:51 spruit11: oerjan is the first name that comes to mind, but isn't here at the moment 19:14:54 but I can't find a point for this 19:15:10 How do I contact oerjan? 19:15:14 of course, it would rather depend on how eso the paper was 19:15:14 use @tell 19:15:32 fizzie might be able to? not sure 19:15:39 I mean - brainfuck isn't the best language for writing at least mildly performant applications in it's pure form 19:15:49 and to do something more interesting and fast you have to extend it 19:15:53 and it's a defeat of the purpose 19:16:00 kspalaiologos: I see programming as communication, you're trying to tell a computer (or another human) what you mean 19:16:04 @tell oerjan Could, or would, you be so kind to support an arxiv submission of a paper I wrote? 19:16:04 Consider it noted. 19:16:16 Thanks people. 19:16:34 and that allows for optimization at both ends of the computation, both for the person writing it, and for the computer understanding it 19:16:45 ais523, that's right, and that's a good mindset 19:16:58 BF is a particularly simple form of programming, but a fully general one, so getting humans to be able to express ideas more efficiently, and computers to be able to understand and run them more efficiently, seems valuable 19:17:12 OISC? 19:17:16 simpler form of programming 19:17:29 I care about OISCs too! 19:17:44 I used to have a very similliar mindset on programming back in the day 19:17:53 actually, most of the esolangs I care about are either a) simpler than BF in some senses, or else b) particularly interesting ways of conveying information about what you mean 19:18:21 interesting 19:18:28 for instance, which languages? 19:18:47 Brachylog is one of my favourite languages 19:19:03 it gets further than most languages at allowing you to express the problem, rather than having to describe a solution to it 19:19:39 and brachylog solves the problem, right? 19:19:59 right, given a description of the problem, it attempts to determine a solution to it without being explicitly told an algorithm 19:20:04 -!- ARCUN has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:20:09 it isn't perfect at doing this, but it's better than most non-esolangs and almost all esolangs 19:20:25 wait 19:20:27 this has made it a particularly good language for programming competitions 19:20:30 let's get to normal Prolog for a second 19:20:43 normal Prolog is also pretty good at this, but it's rather low-level 19:20:58 and you often have to pay attention to how it works internally to make your programs work 19:21:11 are there some higher-level extensions? 19:21:29 yes, Brachylog incorporates at least one (a constraint solver for integer arithmetic) 19:21:37 that not necessairly make the engine create an O(N^N^N^N^N^N) solution 19:21:37 also, its standard library just understands more concepts 19:21:48 oh, performance is, of course, a huge issue when doing this sort of thing :-D 19:22:03 for instance, what about a factorial 19:22:11 what kind of algorithm will it come up 19:22:16 (in terms of complexity) 19:22:33 `! brachylog 100ḟ 19:22:35 ​ \ true. 19:22:38 `! brachylog 100ḟw 19:22:39 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 \ true. 19:22:47 because I'm starting to find the potential for this 19:22:49 the thing is, Brachylog already knows what a factorial is 19:22:57 (unlike Prolog) 19:23:08 man, for example one could solve like logical riddles or something like that using prolog 19:23:11 that's actually amazing 19:23:31 and it would be ten times more amazing if it fit on my TI-83+ 19:23:56 `! brachylog 100⟦₁×w 19:23:58 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 \ true. 19:24:07 there, that's without using the builtin 19:24:17 "product of all the numbers from 1 to 100 inclusive" 19:24:59 `! brachylog ⟦₁×93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000&w 19:25:01 100 \ true. 19:25:09 interesting 19:25:10 see, you can't do /that/ from the definition in most languages 19:25:16 and the performance still seemed to be pretty good 19:25:26 `! brachylog ⟦₁×93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000001&w 19:25:32 just curious as to whether it realises that's impossible 19:25:39 can you write a program that calculates factorial of 1,000 and displays how many digits does it have? 19:25:40 this is one of the biggest problems with Brachylog 19:25:55 I want to "test" something 19:26:03 No output. 19:26:05 mostly on tio.run, I won't kill HackEso xD 19:26:05 `! brachylog 1000ḟlw 19:26:10 2568 \ true. 19:26:15 cool 19:26:39 I'm basically 100% sure it actually calculated every digit, then counted them 19:26:46 rather than doing anything to optimize the calculation 19:27:29 Brachylog's biggest downside is that it the algorithms it uses look only locally, it knows what it's doing for each individual command in the program but looks at them in order and doesn't handle any sort of long-range optimization 19:28:51 the syntax takes a bit of getting used to, too, but that's common with esolangs 19:29:19 Brachylog: Real time: 1.940 s C: Real time: 0.286 s 19:29:26 Factorial of 1000 19:29:36 I mean that's understandable that it took around 10 times more time 19:29:45 because it's very convenient to write 19:30:01 what bignum library is the C program using? 19:30:03 but I wouldn't make long term computations in it 19:30:05 I'd expect that to dominate the time 19:30:07 no bignum library 19:30:23 oh, then the C program is probably just calculating the low 32/64 bits 19:30:25 I just wrote a tiny multiplication algorithm over char array 19:30:32 I'm not this foolish :p 19:30:38 ah, so a handrolled bignum library 19:30:44 it's literally 20 lines long 19:30:50 seems about right 19:31:00 numba's stored as base256 19:31:50 anyway, it's clear to me that a "more intelligent" brachylog-alike could realise that 100!+1 is not the factorial of any number (e.g. by realising the factorial function is increasing) 19:32:14 I doubt one would put time in this 19:32:20 but our current declarative languages aren't up to the task of realising that and will keep brute-forcing possibilities for ever larger numbers forever 19:32:25 I'd train an AI to solve these riddles for me because it's more probable 19:32:45 hmm, /isn't/ this training an AI to solve riddles for you, in a way? 19:32:58 you don't train an AI 19:33:02 you just feed it data :p 19:33:14 also the AI has been trained manually by prolog developers 19:33:18 so it's kinda pants 19:33:37 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Galapagos * New user account 19:33:40 ah, hmm 19:33:50 there's a difference between strong AI, which figures things out itself from training data 19:34:00 and weak AI which has more things hardcoded and is more specialised to one particular job 19:34:02 I know nothing about AI 19:34:09 don't speak the language of aliens to me 19:34:55 I wish I knew more about theory of CS 19:35:11 but never got around to learning it, because the sources are a bit uncomprehendable 19:35:23 and even if the sources, there was no one to learn me it 19:35:27 *teach 19:35:37 well, CS theory is my job 19:35:43 but it's a very big field, and I'm only interested in parts of it 19:35:47 aren't you a harp tuner? 19:35:59 I swear someone has been harp tuner over there 19:36:04 `q harp 19:36:06 1280) hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps 19:36:17 a, only formally trained, ok 19:36:17 kspalaiologos: I was formally trained to tune harps, that doesn't mean it's my current job (or indeed that I've ever done it for money) 19:36:29 it's more just a random fact 19:36:37 fine :p 19:37:04 how exactly do you monetise your CS knowledge 19:37:14 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70788&oldid=70774 * Galapagos * (+254) /* Introductions */ 19:37:24 in my case, it's more like monetising my esolang knowledge 19:37:29 haha 19:37:33 when a CS researcher comes up with an idea for a new style of programming 19:37:36 I wish I found a way to do that 19:37:38 they need someone to test it out and see if it could work 19:37:57 and, well, there aren't that many people who are up for programming in newly invented languages, especially if they have to implement the language too 19:38:09 so you're essentially a guinea pig for CS researchers? 19:38:20 right, or was; my current job's drifted away a bit from that 19:38:29 one can't write Brainfuck-based casino software forever :p 19:38:54 `? kspalaiologos 19:38:55 kspalaiologos is a brainfuck addict and a late night Perl hacker. He's secretly disassembling brainfuck code for a casino that lost the source code. Apparently knows the secret of Malbolge. 19:38:57 it's still here 19:39:09 hmm, this implies that the casino compiled to BF 19:39:14 which seems like an odd thing to do 19:39:26 (otherwise, their BF code would /be/ the source code) 19:39:44 yes thats right 19:40:02 but they didn't tell me the name of tool 19:40:05 it seemed decent 19:40:16 supossedly the developer took it with him lol 19:40:25 I love the idea that BF is fulfilling a similar role in industry as BANCStar 19:40:41 or I should say "commerce", casinos aren't very industrial 19:40:49 what is this 19:40:51 BANCStar? 19:41:07 it's basically a (really terrible) bytecode format that was used as the backend for some sort of commercial GUI program 19:41:19 but the frontend that compiled to it was bad enough that people started programming in BANCStar directly 19:41:38 lmao 19:41:39 it's generally considered one of the worst programming languages to exist, other than ones which were intentionally created as bad (maybe even then, because it has less of an excuse) 19:41:41 why was it invented 19:41:54 what about COBOL or JavaScript 19:41:57 they're terrible too 19:41:58 the issue is that because it was a commercial product, nobody seems quite clear on the specs 19:42:05 it is way worse than COBOL or JavaScript 19:42:21 impossible 19:42:24 let me look it up 19:42:32 https://esolangs.org/wiki/BANCStar 19:42:46 lmao what the hell is this 19:42:50 what's the application of this 19:43:27 I'd rather program in Malbolge 19:43:50 BANCStar is a specialist computer programming language for financial applications.[citation needed] The language is an internal language for the National Financial Computer Services, Inc (later Broadway & Seymour) BANCStar application, which is software to automate the operations of a bank branch 19:44:04 I knew that before 19:44:13 but is there something like specific 19:44:18 a name of software written in it 19:44:20 a screenshot, photo 19:45:08 actually, BANCStar was the name of the software written in it, but became attached to the language itself somehow 19:45:21 the language itself was originally called "screen code" but it isn't a very memorable or searchable name 19:45:43 it was intended to write user interfaces for banks, we don't know all that much beyond that though 19:46:20 if I was the guy who wrote it 19:46:21 Some things have been figured out by looking at the existing programs, although some things are unknown, and some people (including myself) disagree about the ideas of what some of the commands are supposed to mean. 19:46:36 I wouldn't admit I made it 19:47:01 I mean, it makes /slightly/ more sense as a bytecode format than a programming language, but it's clearly terribly designed for either role 19:48:12 if I knew malbolge before 19:48:16 like, how to program it 19:48:19 anyway, your casino programmer probably compiled to BF in the hope that the casino wouldn't then be able to fire them 19:48:22 without willingness to remove my eyes 19:48:25 because nobody would be able to do anything with the resulting code 19:48:39 they wanted to have a Brainfuck or Malbolge solution 19:48:44 because security standards :v) 19:48:46 so maybe BANCStar has a similar purpose? it looks like the sort of thing that would only be created by a large collaboration though 19:49:03 I would think using BF or Malbolge would be security through obscurity more than anything else 19:49:25 raw uncommented BF isn't that much harder to understand than raw uncommented machine code 19:50:09 I think BANCStar was legitimate, and may have been originally designed to write the code directly but the designer decided it wasn't very good for that purpose and so made the screen generator instead and then never documented the code. 19:50:21 ha ha ha 19:50:25 now tell me 19:50:29 if I wrote this in malbolge 19:50:39 (Of course I don't know, so, I just guess.) 19:50:40 would there be a person willing to reverse enginner it? 19:50:46 what's this about a casino using bf? 19:50:48 just for a financial gain of few hundred points 19:51:00 kspalaiologos: there are definitely people who would try just for the challenge, I'm not sure how far they'd get before giving up 19:51:03 *pounds 19:51:09 :p 19:51:11 note that I believe that Malbolge is considerably easier to read than it is to write 19:51:36 because the hardest part in Malbolge is making everything fit together so that it's encryption-stable and keeping control of the C and D pointers 19:51:40 yeah, a bit like that 19:51:45 and a reader doesn't have to do that, only a writer 19:51:58 you're missing a very important thing:p 19:52:20 a decent safe malbolge program would be around 10MB 19:52:29 consume around 4GB of RAM I presume 19:52:36 most of it would be no-ops, though, wouldn't it? 19:52:41 wrong 19:52:54 or, well, you can't put a stable no-op everywhere 19:53:07 they would act a bit like these 19:53:11 so I guess much of it is code that doesn't do anything but is not obviously a no-op 19:53:12 but they wouldn't be these 19:53:26 we need to distinguish malbolge code and a bit optimized malbolge code 19:54:39 that's a good point, though, distinguishing padding from useful code is going to be hard without prior knowledge of which is which 19:55:28 yes 19:55:35 sometimes you unroll the loop 19:55:39 and it's viable 19:56:02 you can view some malbolge samples and get a taste of this 19:56:11 https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions 19:56:15 there should be around 30 of them 19:56:20 I haven't found a good environment for reading Malbolge yet 19:56:33 raw Malbolge is hard to read, normalized Malbolge doesn't contain all the information you'd need and doesn't really help much 19:56:43 there are normalized malbolge translators 19:56:46 yeah 19:57:17 tbh I didn't write any RE tooling for malbolge 19:57:19 just compilers 19:57:40 simple small abstraction layers 19:57:48 peephole opt 19:58:49 anyway, something like https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/codegolf-submissions/blob/master/60106.mb, I can tell that it's pretty NOP-heavy even without normalizing 19:59:34 also, that appears to be not Malbolge, but rather HTML-escaped Malbolge 20:00:00 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:00:07 but not everywhere, some lines aren't escaped 20:00:38 now I'm curious as to how that happened 20:00:56 lol 20:00:57 what 20:01:19 I genuinely have no idea 20:02:04 there aren't this many nop slides cmon 20:02:13 they aren't long slides 20:02:24 more, you have 20 commands in a row and perhaps 14/15 of them are nops 20:02:48 I think, at least, it's a pain working out which of the 8 sequences a given reverse-ASCII sequence is 20:03:09 I must be one of the few people who tries to sightread Malbolge, and it's mostly just to confirm it as Malbolge and get a feeling of the shape of the code 20:03:24 hah 20:03:26 I haven't gotten very far programming in it, I mostly just help beginners on Stack Overflow 20:03:37 you help beginners program malbolge on stackoverflow 20:03:38 lmao 20:03:47 also brb I'll be back in a second 20:03:49 (the idea is to fix whatever misconception they had that was making them think it was easier than it actually is, then they give up) 20:04:00 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:04:23 My guess is that command 3100 in BANCStar means that if the condition isn't true then it is an error and you have to rekey the input. 20:04:45 (This guess is based on how the command is used in the known programs.) 20:05:32 zzo38: I'm just intrigued that BANCStar manages to be /so/ horrible it drives a brainfuck and Malbolge developer away in horror 20:06:00 although I guess neither brainfuck nor Malbolge was designed to be a bad language (although neither was BANCStar…) 20:06:09 Malbolge was designed to be hard to program in, which is different from being bad 20:06:29 I forget the exact goal brainfuck was optimizing for, but it was something related to size or simplicity 20:07:11 int-e: I read your AIT notes. excellent research! your note say that I1_f uses KO(t|s) but I guess you mean KO(t|s*) ? 20:08:04 tromp: KO(t|u) is defined in terms of u^* just like Chaitin does. 20:08:32 the main advantage of my KP is that such a thm with KP(t|s) instead of KP(t|s*) would be rather trivial. Ah, Ok. I thought it better to make the * explicit 20:09:03 Which is a bit awkward, but it is what makes the other direction of the symmetry of information tick. 20:09:31 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Rutherfordium. 20:09:35 -!- Rutherfordium has changed nick to Bowserinator. 20:09:36 an implicit * is just too confusing though 20:09:52 As I said, I'm just following Chaitin there. 20:09:59 and doesn't allow you to express the simple version 20:10:37 I might change it. Maybe. 20:10:39 i know, but I think this is one place where Chaitin should not be followed:) 20:10:58 Opinion noted. 20:10:59 :P 20:11:19 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70789&oldid=70768 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Commands */ output 20:11:57 I quite like your KO version too. But I'm not ready to replace KP with it. Maybe they should live side by side:-) 20:12:07 Sure 20:12:41 you will get a different halting probability. a simpler one. so that is one point in favor of yours 20:13:17 Chaitin's u^* is a bit of a red herring actually... what is essential for the second part of the symmetry of information is knowing both H(u) and u. 20:13:50 indeed 20:13:51 (Because H(u) gives you a baseline for the probability P(u)) 20:16:18 btw, in a fit of optimism (about @w correctness and my manual proofs) I added BB(33) and BB(34) to OEIS 20:16:28 W2 correctness 20:16:32 what's the OEIS sequence number? 20:16:51 ah, found it, http://oeis.org/A333479 20:16:52 https://oeis.org/A333479 20:19:04 that sequence grows surprisingly slowly 20:19:22 at least to start with 20:19:33 I suspect BB(35) = 38127987424941 20:19:34 being a busy beaver sequence, it won't be long before it grows at rates too fast to comprehend or describe 20:19:56 ah, that's more like it :-D 20:20:18 what function is being approximately computed? or is it not easy to tell? 20:20:28 most small busy beaver numbers "summarize" well 20:20:30 we have BB(53) being an exponential tower with well over 256 levels 20:20:50 `` printf "%x" 38127987424941 20:20:50 22ad5d257ead 20:21:20 tromp: Hmm, are you collecting those lower bounds somewhere? 20:21:50 the math overflow has some, and this one I added as note in my OEIS draft 20:22:04 it's just 3^3^3 20:23:17 `! brachylog 3^₃^₃w 20:23:18 19683 \ true. 20:23:27 ah right, I associated that wrong 20:23:47 size(church_n) = 5*n+6 20:24:08 `! brachylog 3^₃;3~^w 20:24:11 ​ \ false. 20:24:14 `! brachylog 3^₃,3~^w 20:24:32 Ah, 3^3^3, of course. 20:24:46 brachylog isn't very good at reassociating things 20:24:50 No output. 20:24:56 and I keep getting , versus ; versus : confused 20:24:58 > 5*3^3^3 + 6 20:25:00 38127987424941 20:25:06 `! brachylog 3^₂₇w 20:25:07 7625597484987 \ true. 20:25:20 `! brachylog 3^₂₇×₅+₆w 20:25:21 38127987424941 \ true. 20:25:26 there we go 20:25:40 `` dc <<<'3dd^^5*6+p' 20:25:41 38127987424941 20:25:45 fwiw, I figured out there was a pattern from the hexadecimal 20:26:12 it looked a lot like it was something multiplied by 5, based on what digits resulted 20:26:16 `` dc <<<'16o3dd^^5*6+p' 20:26:17 22AD5D257EAD 20:26:18 `` printf "%x" $((38127987424941/5)) 20:26:19 6ef79077fbc 20:26:39 although I'm not sure that helped, now it just looks random :-D 20:27:21 I had an advantage... I already knew the 5n+6 part. 20:28:21 3-powers are bound to look random in binary:( 20:29:30 2-powers seemed likely to show up before 3-powers, perhaps not though 20:30:19 anyway, on another topic: what does the fastest possible FizzBuzz look like? 20:30:37 I have a suspicion that you might not generate it in order 20:30:54 (the aim here is to output the longest FizzBuzz sequence you can in, say, 1 second or 10 seconds) 20:31:03 yes, BB(4) corresponds to 2^2^2^2 20:31:18 BB(34) 20:32:16 ah right, and that isn't on OEIS yet 20:32:34 65536 is possibly the non-small number that most commonly appears in busy beavers 20:32:52 because there are a lot of different ways to construct it and it thus appears in a lot of different fast-growing sequences 20:32:54 pretty awesome to have two consecutive comprehensible busy beaver numbers 20:33:38 they're awaiting approval 20:34:00 Well there's https://oeis.org/draft/A333479 20:35:09 So we can see what you're doing if we want to :) 20:35:43 Oh apparently that link format is not easily discoverable without an OEIS account. 20:42:53 TMs describable in 35 bits only reach a busy beaver value of 13 :-( 20:44:59 and those describable in 46 bits likely reach only 4098 20:45:57 TMs are awkward to program 20:46:13 a brainfuck busy beaver would struggle similarly 20:46:17 by contrast, Brachylog reaches a program whose halting status is unknown in 24 bits 20:46:54 sounds worthy of a blog post! 20:47:19 https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/97004/does-the-code-terminate/177438#177438 20:47:27 thankcs 20:47:44 I mean, if you look at how we program TMs in practice, the number of states is a fair measure of program size. There's a lot of messy behavior outside the fragment we actually have a chance of understanding well enough for actual programming. 20:47:51 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 20:48:48 BLC also has a lot of garbage programs, of course, but the programmable fragment feels bigger. 20:49:54 I can compute 0.291652 now, time for bed. 20:50:10 golfing languages aim to maximise the size of the programmable fragment, more or less by definition, so you'd expect them to hit unknown BB values faster 20:50:17 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70790&oldid=70789 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Examples */ 20:51:07 this particular program is weird, though, it's using string operators on numbers and generates the Smarandache sequence 20:51:34 which is a weird sequence because every element checked so far is composite, even though there doesn't seem to be any particular reason why it should be 20:53:37 someone did a busy-beaver-like search in number theory, too, and the simplest statement that neither they nor their program could prove true or false was "there are infinitely many prime numbers of the form x²-2" 20:54:18 (the number 0.291652 is from http://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/April2020.html ) 20:54:23 but that can't easily be converted into a program that searches for a counterexample, you'd need a proof both ways 20:58:02 that statement seems no simpler than goldbach's conjecture 21:00:24 tromp: simpler in terms of the number of primitives needed to express it in the language they were using 21:01:06 they were able to prove it could not be expressed more concisely? 21:01:22 or maybe just by best effort? 21:01:41 what language was that? 21:03:48 -!- mra90 has joined. 21:03:52 must be a language with universal and existential quantifiers... 21:16:20 -!- ski has joined. 21:22:51 tromp: peano arithmetic with universal and existential quantifiers 21:23:14 the brute-force search found a few statements that were all effectively equivalent to each other 21:23:23 and there was nothing simpler that couldn't be easily proven true or false 21:34:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hdjensofjfnen * New user account 21:36:20 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70791&oldid=70788 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+158) 21:37:48 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:37:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:38:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:38:20 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:39:09 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70792&oldid=70741 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+28) 21:39:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:47:41 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70793&oldid=70792 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+43) /* Hexagony */ 22:15:47 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:22:44 -!- Cale has joined. 22:38:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:50:23 [[Talk:INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70794&oldid=35649 * Ais523 * (+287) /* Binary operators */ this actually happened 23:07:39 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 23:07:42 -!- noomy has quit (Quit: Bye!). 23:07:46 -!- wlp1s1 has quit (Excess Flood). 23:09:49 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 23:10:04 -!- moony has joined. 23:10:33 -!- iczero has joined. 23:12:15 -!- iczero has quit (Excess Flood). 23:13:28 -!- iczero has joined. 23:29:36 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 23:29:51 Of course I didn't run away in horror :p 23:30:27 I've been interrupted three times now so the second has became around 3 hours 23:31:09 They had three very interesting topic though so I couldn't resist 23:31:30 Wrecking 1300's in chess, chernobyl disaster and my mental health 23:31:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:22 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:50:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 23:50:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:55:32 [[User:JonoCode9374]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70795&oldid=70766 * JonoCode9374 * (+20) /* Languages I like */ 2020-04-10: 00:38:49 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70796&oldid=70790 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) Add cat 00:45:46 [[Function x(y)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70797&oldid=70765 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Syntax */ no floats 00:58:39 -!- tromp has joined. 01:00:27 [[Gecho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70798&oldid=69710 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 01:02:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 01:02:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:07:51 Do you like to play any chess variant? 01:32:20 -!- tromp has joined. 01:36:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:37:30 Do you know if 2600 will still be printed? 02:07:11 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:19:31 [[Goruby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70799&oldid=46968 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 02:26:46 -!- tromp has joined. 02:30:23 -!- xkapastel has joined. 02:30:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:51:05 ais523: "if the registers are actually in memory, why not have lots of them" => well, I remembered wrong. what I was about the registers was just false 02:51:09 [[GreenBerry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70800&oldid=68591 * LegionMammal978 * (+16) fixed title 02:52:41 the info about the compiler is actually at "http://www.homebrewcpu.com/retargeting_lcc.htm" , it says the compiler knows of only the A and B registers of the machine, the memory register hack is used only for 32-bit integers because the machine has no such registers, and those are mapped to the stack frame (which has short addressing modes), not global memory 02:59:21 [[Groinfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70801&oldid=53825 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title 03:02:17 [[Gtltem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70802&oldid=45923 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 03:05:50 " so maybe BANCStar has a similar purpose?" => no, that one is probably because the interpreter was used for a much more suitable use in another bank or something, and then the customer bank decided that it must be a good framework and was willing to buy it and pay their engineers to buy it, just for the brand or name recognition, without realizing that it's not suitable for the kind of programs 03:05:57 that they want, 03:06:41 and especially that the previous team actually had the source code for thethe interpreter too and added more features to it whenever the target app needed functions more complicated than just adding a new field to a form, 03:07:08 but this customer didn't realize that that was necessary, and just payed a software dev team to program in the existing framework. 03:07:35 at least that's my very biased guess. 03:09:55 Maybe. Or, maybe not. 03:14:21 int-e: OEIS format is documented at http://oeis.org/eishelp1.html 03:28:29 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:28:49 -!- sprocklem has joined. 03:31:36 [[Talk:Forte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70803&oldid=50817 * Quadril-Is * (+660) 03:31:59 [[Talk:Forte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70804&oldid=70803 * Quadril-Is * (-6) 03:39:05 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70805&oldid=70307 * YamTokTpaFa * (+275) /* Where can I find a compiler/interpreter of ABCDXYZ? */ new section 03:45:12 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70806&oldid=70805 * YamTokTpaFa * (+490) /* Should Nuts be deleted? */ new section 03:50:53 I am writing a new ZZT external editor, which is Linux-based rather than ZZTQED which is DOS-based and is slow. This new one is much faster and is written half in C and half in SQL, and can (optionally) use the new features of FreeZZT. 03:51:54 I also wrote two C files used with it, display.c which emulates a PC text screen, and zzt.c which is dealing with ZZT worlds; other people might also find these programs useful even when used with other stuff too, maybe. 03:52:07 (However, display.c requires SDL 1.x, so if you don't have that, then it won't work) 04:14:58 -!- tromp has joined. 04:19:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:20:07 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:45:47 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:47:18 -!- xelxebar has joined. 05:48:25 Finite discrete categories are like natural numbers, isn't it? And then you can also add, multiply, exponent, of categories too, and is the same thing, as with the natural numbers in the case of discrete categories, I think. I think that actually natural numbers will occur a lot in mathematics, isn't it? 06:15:55 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:17:05 -!- diverger has joined. 06:49:26 -!- tromp has joined. 06:54:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:01:14 -!- tromp has joined. 07:30:37 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:00:15 -!- joast has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:14:46 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:41:18 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:48:24 So... barring bugs, I'm done with the April Ponder This? That went better than anticipated. 09:07:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:20:46 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 09:37:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:38:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:14:37 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:49:06 looks like straightforward (dynamic) programming 10:49:47 huh 10:50:48 (Maybe, but it doesn't match how I thought about it at all.) 10:55:05 you enumerated all 8 node graphs? 10:55:13 basically 10:55:31 i expect it can't be done with 7 nodes:) 10:55:46 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 10:55:48 plausible 10:56:26 you used Haskell? 10:56:28 Oh maybe I do know what you meant with DP. 11:00:26 computing the probability that a particular subset of nodes is the set of infected nodes after i steps 11:24:41 Okay, then I did interpret the DP reference correctly after all. 11:24:51 But I saw a Markov chain and matrix multiplication :P 11:43:19 Hrm, why did I put that here. 12:08:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:11:51 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 12:22:29 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:46:04 how can one write a program that will guess a formula for given equation 12:46:31 if x = blah, y = blah, and (some formula involving x and/or y)=known z 12:46:36 bruteforce is it? 12:46:45 or there's some smart-ass way I don't know 12:48:40 i'm guessing you don't mean x*y*0+z 12:51:14 :p 12:51:21 given a, given b, given z 12:51:27 wait 12:51:30 that's actually smartass 12:51:40 but let's assume you can't do that 13:12:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:21:02 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:21:47 -!- joast has joined. 13:23:59 -!- rain1 has joined. 13:33:45 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:34:05 [[Hatemath]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70807&oldid=69897 * LegionMammal978 * (+2049) fixed title, added old interpreter from revision 54384 13:34:38 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 14:07:59 lmao wtf this python code 14:08:40 is it a joke or sth 14:09:07 yo 14:12:13 kspalaiologos: if it was a joke, surely it would be using else: if: with proper indentation 14:12:40 for a second I thought these were normal ifs 14:12:50 so this entire code was essentially a no-op lol 14:13:58 I've seen worse. (Haven't we all.) 14:22:47 well, this code is not great not terrible, I've seen worse and I have to admit it. 14:23:14 but it's just a cheering thing to see this afternoon 14:28:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:30:15 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:06:20 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Hunter]] to [[HUNTER]]: fix capitalization 15:06:43 [[HUNTER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70810&oldid=70808 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed title 15:34:40 ' Although what computability class F_omega represents, I don't know. I imagine that it is at least primitive recursive, and probably beyond primitive recursive to some degree. i.e. I would not be surprised if you could write the Ackermann function in F_omega. But again, I don't really know, yet.' => apparently even F2 can do ackermann 15:35:04 slide 114 of http://www.cse.chalmers.se/research/group/logic/TypesSS05/Extra/miquel_sl1.pdf 16:11:12 All you need is proper (polymorphic) Church numerals. 16:11:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:28:53 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:29:18 so how much more powerful is F_omega? 16:33:38 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:34:01 -!- tromp has joined. 16:49:06 -!- imode has joined. 16:59:00 [[Talk:I like frog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70811 * LegionMammal978 * (+855) Created page with "A few questions: * For like i, how are ternary numbers converted into bits? Do the inserted bits start at the cell at the pointer or the cell to the right of the..." 17:14:07 Hi people! 17:14:24 I am still looking for an endorser for arxiv. 17:14:37 oerjan didn't respond yet. 17:33:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:34:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:42:16 [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70812&oldid=66936 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+34) /* Instructions */ 17:43:58 [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70813&oldid=70812 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+22) /* Instructions */ 17:44:31 [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70814&oldid=70813 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-35) /* Instructions */ 17:53:28 chill, oerjan ain't a 24/7 CS problem IRC hotline :p 17:53:29 give him some time, maybe the problem is complex 17:54:20 [, 47 17:54:20 oops 17:58:11 -!- ArthurStrong has left. 17:59:55 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 18:14:58 -!- APic has joined. 18:14:59 -!- MDead has joined. 18:14:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:14:59 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 18:14:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:14:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:19:59 [[Metatape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70815&oldid=70814 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-4) /* Language overview */ 18:39:18 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:39:18 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 18:39:18 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:43:06 more and more creative usernames everyday 19:34:04 Oh, okay. 19:36:12 -!- user24 has joined. 19:52:59 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:12:06 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:13:06 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 20:15:48 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 20:21:17 i'm getting confused about kinds and types, so if α:*, β:*, (λa:α.b:β):α→β, is the type of 'α→β' '*' or '*→*' (i think its the former)? so would Πα:*.α be of type *→*? 20:21:19 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 20:23:46 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:30:07 -!- tromp has joined. 20:42:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:56:17 -!- tromp has joined. 20:59:23 yes and yes 20:59:38 and they aren't here anymore but maybe will read the logs or something. 21:11:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:26:13 [[Talk:ABCDXYZ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70816&oldid=65857 * Ais523 * (+7712) paste the implementation onto the talk page 21:27:17 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70817&oldid=70806 * Ais523 * (+199) /* Where can I find a compiler/interpreter of ABCDXYZ? */ I put it on [[Talk:ABCDXYZ]] 21:28:18 -!- tromp has joined. 21:29:44 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70818&oldid=70817 * Ais523 * (+765) /* Should Nuts be deleted? */ where does the content come from? 21:32:26 kritixilithos: no, (Πα:*.α) is still of kind * 21:33:11 [[Talk:Forte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70819&oldid=70804 * Ais523 * (+675) /* The first error */ it's an error by definition; why I defined it to be an error 21:36:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:39:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:39:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:44:31 * kmc forgot what Π means maybe :/ 21:57:22 I thought yes and yes too. 22:12:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:36:35 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Icecream17 * New user account 22:40:47 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70820&oldid=70791 * Icecream17 * (+306) introduce 22:50:13 -!- budonyc has joined. 23:00:05 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:25:57 -!- Maitor has joined. 23:26:19 [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70821&oldid=70601 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 23:27:56 [[KeyVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70822&oldid=70821 * LegionMammal978 * (-14) unfixed title based on repo 23:33:46 [[Kitanai]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70823&oldid=60539 * LegionMammal978 * (+82) added repo link 2020-04-11: 00:26:06 [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70824&oldid=66891 * LegionMammal978 * (-148) it's pretty obviously Python 00:38:04 -!- tromp has joined. 00:42:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:10:52 [[Lazy Bird]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70825&oldid=20117 * LegionMammal978 * (+33) /* External ressources */ fix link 01:14:37 O, now the new rules of Magic: the Gathering say that companion cards must be shown when the game begins. 01:17:28 [[Leszek]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70826&oldid=22715 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link 01:18:20 Now counters have timestamps too, and I don't really like that much. 01:20:19 [[Lhooq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70827&oldid=50016 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 01:30:33 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:32:07 -!- tromp has joined. 01:36:24 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:36:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:38:14 -!- rain1 has joined. 01:50:18 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:54:22 [[User:Icecream17]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70828 * Icecream17 * (+5886) ugh this is hard. but i finally did it 01:54:28 -!- budonyc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:55:43 -!- rinakra has joined. 01:59:47 [[User:Icecream17]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70829&oldid=70828 * Icecream17 * (+271) reassurance, comment 02:03:58 -!- rinakra has left. 02:07:53 -!- budonyc has joined. 02:14:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:33:23 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Logstack]] to [[LogStack]]: fix capitalization 02:39:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:40:43 -!- xelxebar has joined. 02:54:17 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70832&oldid=70605 * Challenger5 * (-10) 02:58:05 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[M-code]] to [[M-Code]]: fix capitalization 02:58:05 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:M-code]] to [[Talk:M-Code]]: fix capitalization 02:58:58 [[M-Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70837&oldid=70833 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) re-fixed capitalization based on the interpreter's documentation 03:04:35 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70838&oldid=62346 * LegionMammal978 * (+129) added categories 03:09:09 [[Rogex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70839&oldid=69579 * Lebster * (+1) /* Hello, world! */ 03:16:11 [[Rogex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70840&oldid=70839 * Lebster * (+146) /* Commands */ 03:41:31 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:43:31 -!- budonyc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:44:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:56:56 -!- budonyc has joined. 04:04:19 -!- budonyc has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:10:53 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 04:17:27 -!- budonyc has joined. 04:25:33 According to "ncal -e" and "ncal -o", the Orthodox Easter is one week after the Catholic Easter this year. 04:30:11 -!- Maitor_ has joined. 04:32:02 -!- mniip has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:33:03 -!- Maitor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:46:52 imagine if televisions and analog cameras had originally been designed to scan lines alternatingly left and right, boustrophedon style! it would have made the PPUs of computer terminal so much more complicated, then later the computer software complicated, we'd still be dealing with some of the fallout from it, just like how we sometimes have to deal with interlaced video 04:49:15 Yes, although they didn't do that. Also many computers used 240p in order to avoid interlacing anyways, I think. 04:51:14 zzo38: true, partly to avoid interlacing, and partly because the CPUs do 8 bit arithmetic, so having the width and height of the screen in pixels be just a bit lower than 256 (in the NES and the game boy) is both convenient for manipulating sprites and causes some amusing wraparound bugs (NES Jekyl and Hyde has the weirdest one, but there are minor ones in many other games) 04:54:22 Although the CRTC chip used in PC has a interlacing mode, although it isn't used in PC. (It also has a cursor blinking mode, which also isn't used in PC; the PC has its own logic for cursor blinking. I have the schematics, so I know how it is working, including the undocumented cyan/red/white mode.) 05:23:32 I often see smbc comics that are very close to an xkcd strip, or backwards, but today is I think the first time when the strips for the same day are similar: 05:24:12 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/inching vs https://xkcd.com/2292/ (for the future, because SMBC makes it very hard to find the strip for a given date) 05:29:02 I'm reminded of https://futurism.com/coldest-hottest-temperatures-known-universe-infographic where a few of the higher temperatures are clearly estimates in Kelvin, converted to Celsius. (I remembered one, 99,999,999,726°C, but there are also 36,926°C and 6627°C. 05:29:06 ) 05:29:31 * int-e wonders how many single-line closing parenthesis he has in the log. Must be quite a few. 05:29:52 ( 05:30:01 maybe I should try to compensate for them like this.) 05:32:05 Oh I still missed a couple. But I'm sure you can find them yourself. :P 05:45:44 int-e: yes, that's the smaller side-effect of pop articles refusing to write big numbers in mantissa-exponent form. the bigger side effect is that they write numbers like "100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000" that are totally uninformative unless you take the time to have a computer count the digits 05:46:24 or similarly "hundred thousand million million million million million million" 05:47:10 It's better than the unadorned 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000. 05:47:42 dunno, at that point I don't bother counting by hand anyway, just have a computer do it 05:47:52 well, at least in a digital text 05:48:17 admittedly in printed text, the commas are better 05:48:41 Well the groups of three do help. For example, they make 100,000,000,000 quite manageable to decipher. 05:50:52 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:51:16 (But pushing it beyond 4, maybe 5 groups, isn't very helpful. It's not like I have any sense of how big those numbers are anyway, except by switching to a logarithmic scale and pretending it means something.) 05:52:03 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:52:15 -!- iczero has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:52:21 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:52:26 And basically that switch is what scientific notation does. 06:12:43 int-e: yes 06:16:38 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:16:54 -!- xelxebar has joined. 06:19:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:45:14 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:05:18 -!- Maitor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:06:16 -!- tromp has joined. 07:06:49 -!- Maitor_ has joined. 07:06:57 -!- voidio has joined. 07:07:41 -!- probablymoony has joined. 07:07:58 -!- iczero has joined. 07:08:28 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 07:13:21 -!- voidio has changed nick to iovoid. 07:46:24 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 07:47:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 08:18:01 -!- Maitor_ has quit (Quit: Maitor_). 08:18:20 -!- Maitor has joined. 08:46:19 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:47:34 b_jonas: thanks, i am able to follow this type derivation from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube#Formal_definition, but i guess i don't have the intuition yet 08:55:31 kritixilithos: don't believe what I say about that type system either, I don't really understand it 08:57:27 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the international hatchery for esoteric programming discussion, design, egg-plants, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/. 09:17:04 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:17:19 -!- xelxebar has joined. 09:37:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:38:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:39:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:46:57 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: even though the storm calmed down, the bitter end is just a matter of time). 09:49:18 -!- grumble has joined. 10:16:54 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:17:11 -!- xelxebar has joined. 10:20:39 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Noxomix * New user account 10:26:57 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70841&oldid=70820 * Noxomix * (+278) edited 10:30:51 [[WebFuckLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70842 * Noxomix * (+27) Created page with "[[Category:Joke languages]]" 10:32:21 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70843&oldid=70842 * Noxomix * (+27) 10:40:09 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70844&oldid=70843 * Noxomix * (+213) /* What is WebFuckLang? */ 10:40:45 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70845&oldid=70844 * Noxomix * (+13) 10:45:05 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70846&oldid=70845 * Noxomix * (+8) 10:48:37 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70847&oldid=70750 * Noxomix * (+70) 10:53:50 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70848&oldid=70846 * Noxomix * (+146) 10:58:12 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70849&oldid=70848 * Noxomix * (+133) 10:59:08 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70850&oldid=70849 * Noxomix * (+109) 10:59:29 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70851&oldid=70850 * Noxomix * (+0) 10:59:37 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70852&oldid=70851 * Noxomix * (+0) 11:03:35 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70853&oldid=70852 * Noxomix * (+352) 11:06:40 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70854&oldid=70853 * Noxomix * (+144) 11:07:45 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70855&oldid=70854 * Noxomix * (-150) 11:08:42 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70856&oldid=70855 * Noxomix * (-1) 11:08:56 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70857&oldid=70856 * Noxomix * (-20) 11:09:09 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70858&oldid=70857 * Noxomix * (-15) /* The basic Syntax */ 11:09:49 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70859&oldid=70858 * Noxomix * (+67) 11:15:31 -!- Maitor has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:17:00 -!- Maitor has joined. 11:28:46 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 11:37:28 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70860&oldid=70859 * Noxomix * (+678) 11:45:59 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70861&oldid=70860 * Noxomix * (+445) 11:51:43 [[MemPanic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70862&oldid=11368 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 11:53:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:54:40 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70863&oldid=70861 * Noxomix * (+309) 11:57:57 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70864&oldid=70637 * RocketRace * (+746) Add examples of valid/invalid statements 12:00:26 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70865&oldid=70863 * Noxomix * (+111) /* The basic Syntax */ 12:08:30 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:11:37 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70866&oldid=70865 * Noxomix * (+497) /* The basic Syntax */ 12:12:51 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:13:08 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70867&oldid=70864 * RocketRace * (+581) Begin the runtime section. (Due to an interruption, I will continue this later.) 12:16:28 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70868&oldid=70866 * Noxomix * (+247) /* The basic Syntax */ 12:17:28 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:25:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:33:28 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:47:17 hi hi a kind is kind, but a type isn’t that type 12:49:08 umm? 12:49:42 hm I might have used “kinds” and “types” as I initially planned but then I thought that “types ... that type” would be for some reason ungrammatical, poor me 12:52:12 kspalaiologos: there was a conversation about 20:21 UTC yesterday about kinds and types and I’ve read it only now :D 12:52:46 fine 12:53:29 -!- szewczykgej has joined. 12:55:48 -!- szewczykgej has left. 13:11:44 -!- unrooted has joined. 13:12:20 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:17:40 -!- tromp has joined. 13:30:16 that went way smoother than they advertised it to 13:30:26 at first it sounded like the networks gonna collapse 13:58:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:02:41 [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70869&oldid=67362 * Palaiologos * (+60) link to seed article 14:04:37 [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70870&oldid=70869 * Palaiologos * (+118) irc nickname 14:05:18 [[User talk:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70871&oldid=67378 * Palaiologos * (-1460) clear my talk page 14:05:29 ^-- no idea how to remove my user page 14:05:34 so I'm just removing the content 14:14:31 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:07:17 kspalaiologos: maybe fizzie knows? 15:08:02 Not even sure I added myself or my language Egel. 15:08:06 Have a look. 15:09:02 Oh, right. It is there. 15:09:09 kritixilithos: hi, if you don’t logread (as I am lazy to do very often, for example), there are some answers to your yesterday’s questions about kinds, approx. 21:00 UTC yesterday, and later 15:10:27 arseniiv: i've seen them, i even replied to b_jonas today, it seems you are the one who hasn't been logreading :P 15:13:58 kritixilithos: yep I’m too late and I definitely hadn’t logread, I agree 15:14:09 :D 15:14:39 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:19:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:29:40 [[User:Icecream17]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70872&oldid=70829 * Icecream17 * (-6032) decided to put it in an article 15:35:41 [[Stopwatch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70873 * GDavid * (+1877) Created page with "Stopwatch is a language invented by [[User:GDavid]]. == Program structure == A Stopwatch program consists of function declarations. The Main function is called on start. ==..." 15:36:45 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70874&oldid=70847 * GDavid * (+16) Stopwatch 15:47:00 [[Stopwatch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70875&oldid=70873 * GDavid * (+715) Examples 15:47:48 [[Stopwatch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70876&oldid=70875 * GDavid * (+33) sleep N return value 16:09:50 -!- tromp has joined. 16:10:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:17:24 I added another card (called "Master Shuffler") to my Un-cards file. 16:17:52 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:33:49 How to access a SQLite database from a standalone PostScript program? (There is %pipe% to communicate with other programs, but it is only a one way pipe.) 16:41:51 zzo38: you probably need to write an extension to the postscript interpreter in a way that's dependent on the specific interpreter for that 16:45:28 -!- imode has joined. 16:47:50 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:49:16 [[Powder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70877&oldid=65461 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) 17:01:10 It is one thing I thought that should be done in level 4 PostScript, to define a C API for extensions, and a dlopen operator which takes a filename and dictionary, and then the extension writes into the dictionary when loaded (the dlopen operator would not be allowed in safe mode, although if you use it before switching to safe mode, the extension that is already loaded is still usable). 17:02:56 Other things I thought should be done in level 4 PostScript is some of the stuff currently specific to Ghostscript, such as dictionaries in binary object format and the makeimagedevice operator and the %pipe% file, and also to make copypage to depend on the device whether or not it will erase the contents of the page, and a few other things. 17:06:16 Ghostscript does not support dynamic extensions; all extensions must be compiled in. 17:13:27 -!- tromp has joined. 17:18:46 (Ghostscript itself is usable as a dynamic extension for other programs, though.) 17:20:33 I wonder how much overhead does yacc add compared to a hand-written parser 17:20:45 because I'm not entirely sure is writing own parser worth it 17:21:05 like, in terms of performance obviously 17:23:12 It might depend on what syntax you need to parse, perhaps. 17:28:09 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:32:53 -!- tromp has joined. 17:33:00 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70878&oldid=70832 * Challenger5 * (+176) 17:36:12 -!- budonyc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:56:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:10:07 -!- MDude has joined. 18:10:51 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Uriel * New user account 18:19:48 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70879&oldid=70841 * Uriel * (+100) 18:24:58 [[Bunk bed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70880 * Hakerh400 * (+7344) +[[Bunk bed]] 18:25:02 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70881&oldid=70874 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Bunk bed]] 18:25:05 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70882&oldid=70751 * Hakerh400 * (+15) +[[Bunk bed]] 18:28:27 [[Bunk bed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70883&oldid=70880 * Hakerh400 * (-4) /* Syntax */ 18:35:16 -!- tromp has joined. 18:38:40 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:40:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:57:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:00:50 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70884&oldid=70059 * Uriel * (-94) Edited descriptions (with formatting), added language box panel, added implementation 19:05:40 zzo38, +50 and more rules, small amount of symbols, rules are usually at most 3 deep 19:06:07 I decided to get a hand-written parser running 19:06:11 and so far it's paying off 19:08:02 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:08:43 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70885&oldid=70884 * Uriel * (+87) 19:09:03 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70886&oldid=70885 * Uriel * (-34) 19:09:51 -!- tromp has joined. 19:11:09 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70887&oldid=70886 * Uriel * (+21) 19:16:12 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70888&oldid=70887 * Uriel * (+26) 19:16:30 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70889&oldid=70888 * Uriel * (+1) 19:21:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:28:35 Saw a rumor about a famous mathematician dying from COVID-19. Not sure if I should repeat. 19:28:57 [[Tac Toe Toe Grow]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70890 * Icecream17 * (+8529) New language! (Copied from user page and edited) 19:30:09 which mathematician. 19:30:16 Conway 19:30:32 https://twitter.com/CardColm/status/1249038195880341505 19:31:27 https://twitter.com/alexbellos/status/1249044593817116673 19:32:20 doesn't seem to be reliable..? 19:33:22 hoping it isn't reliable. 19:33:53 `? life 19:33:56 ​‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’ 19:35:09 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Icecream17 * moved [[Tac Toe Toe Grow]] to [[Tic Tac Toe Grow]]: How in the world did I make this mistake???? 19:36:39 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 19:52:36 [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70893&oldid=61602 * Structuresend * (-256) 19:56:41 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70894&oldid=70878 * Challenger5 * (-101) 19:57:17 [[Flurry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70895&oldid=70894 * Challenger5 * (-2) 20:11:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:16:17 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:17:44 -!- sprocklem has joined. 20:27:30 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 20:42:22 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:45:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:48:47 [[User:Uriel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70896 * Uriel * (+180) Created page with "Hi! I'm Uriel. I'm mostly active on [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/65326/uriel PPCG]. I wrote the [https://github.com/urielieli/py-four py-four] interpreter for [..." 20:56:42 -!- tromp has joined. 21:01:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:02:12 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:05:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:19:07 Do you like my "Master Shuffler" Un-card? 21:25:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:26:40 You can shuffle one or more of: target planeswalker or player, target player's mana pool, your hand, each planar deck and each scheme deck, the layer system, and/or all timestamps. 21:39:08 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:41:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:41:59 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:15:56 -!- tromp has joined. 22:25:01 -!- unrooted has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 22:37:14 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:51:01 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 23:11:44 -!- nona has joined. 23:48:52 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:55:36 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 2020-04-12: 00:02:07 -!- LKoen has joined. 00:03:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Client Quit). 00:05:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:06:30 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Palaiologos]]": Author request: normally user talk pages aren't deleted, but no relevant warnings/communication from others was present 00:08:10 -!- nona has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:08:56 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Tac Toe Toe Grow]]": redirect from unlikely misspelling (notwithstanding that it was created due to that misspelling) 00:14:55 I find the HTML specification really creepy and unnatural 00:15:04 it starts off innocently enough 00:15:19 but after a while, you realise that it is an entire web browser written in pseudocode 00:15:29 [[MiniUSPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70897&oldid=30402 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 00:15:40 with corrections for bugs, a library system, and similar other things you would find in programming languages 00:15:45 (but you can't run it because it's pseudocode) 00:16:32 ofc programs are substantially shorter in pseudocode because you can just gloss over details, invent builtins on the fly, and the like 00:16:35 but it's still creepy 00:20:29 ais523: yes, including a lot of compatibility stuff for old and broken webpages (though not the MSIE compatibility stuff), defining all the DOM interface for javascript, except you have to add the CSS spec because that's in a separate document 00:22:08 plus I guess the SVG and MathML spec if you want to support those 00:24:53 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70898&oldid=54427 * LegionMammal978 * (-1763) fixed code blocks 00:25:57 I think that some things could be implemented differently, possibly subject to user configuration. Some things should be implemented different anyways, depend on view modes, etc. 00:42:04 [[Minkolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70899&oldid=49842 * LegionMammal978 * (+93) added repo link 00:45:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:51:29 -!- imode has joined. 01:12:52 [[Comefrom0x10]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70900&oldid=52432 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0) /* Types */ 01:39:22 [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70901&oldid=70893 * Structuresend * (-44) 02:03:54 [[Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70902&oldid=59419 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 02:04:01 -!- tromp has joined. 02:08:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:05:05 -!- tromp has joined. 03:09:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:22:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:53:01 -!- tromp has joined. 04:57:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:47:26 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 06:42:13 -!- tromp has joined. 06:43:24 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:46:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:48:10 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:16:22 -!- tromp has joined. 07:33:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:42:05 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 07:53:44 -!- Guest76489 has joined. 07:53:57 hi 07:54:42 `relcome Guest76489 07:54:45 ​Guest76489: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 07:56:02 happy easter 08:01:50 who here is in the process of applying to unemployment 08:02:46 hey int-e 08:04:23 I never knew you need to apply in order to be unemployed 08:09:36 -!- Guest76489 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:15:51 -!- name has joined. 08:16:23 myname I hope you're having a good Sunday morning! happy easter 08:19:33 anyone playing any video games right now? 08:21:42 I'm on webcomics 08:22:37 which one are you reading now? 08:23:15 I used to play M&B warband 08:23:37 name: Too many. Apocalyptic Horseplay is a recent addition. 08:24:44 but I'm waiting for Bannerlord to be stable so I can pirate^H^H^H^H^H^H buy it obviously 08:28:19 name: basically webcomics work like this https://xkcd.com/609/ on a somewhat slower scale. 08:34:27 kspalaiologos M&B warband kind of reminds me of Blade and Sorcery at first glance 08:35:05 not really 08:35:18 you're missing the strategical POV, the map screen 08:35:40 oh well 08:35:44 google images don't show it 08:36:31 Sgeo_: https://mobile.twitter.com/SamWangPhD/status/1249132655737790464?p=p <-- getting closer to confirmation :-( 08:37:26 int-e if you're into webcomics, I just started working with some friends on one as a way to raise money to build an installation for burning man 2020 08:37:29 int-e: imo, webcomics are not _that_ likely to link to other interesting ones 08:37:39 (TheGuardian picked it up) 08:37:40 I'll let you. know how it goes 08:37:48 myname: You'd be surprised. 08:38:25 the apocalyptic horseplay one looks nice. I just read a few pages 08:38:44 myname: IME, if a webcomic author lists 10 comics that they like, and you like their stuff, you'll like 2 or 3 of those comics as well. 08:39:46 (Obviously there are duplicates... but it's still a growing pool.) 08:40:14 oh xkcd is cute! I can see why you're into webcomics. just in the few suggestions you sent, I'm already spiraling deeper into the void 08:48:36 -!- name has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:18:38 -!- unrooted has joined. 09:39:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:40:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:41:17 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:45:05 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70903&oldid=70868 * Noxomix * (+549) 09:46:41 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70904&oldid=70903 * Noxomix * (+66) /* Examples */ 09:54:13 [[WebFuckLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70905&oldid=70904 * Noxomix * (+717) 09:57:58 -!- unrooted has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:58:49 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:02:47 -!- olsner has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:06:36 [[Bunk bed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70906&oldid=70883 * Hakerh400 * (+10) /* Comparing mappings */ fix typos 10:12:37 -!- MDude has joined. 10:16:21 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70907&oldid=70867 * RocketRace * (+15) Easier searchability 10:43:07 -!- olsner has joined. 10:52:05 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:01:54 I've found another use for unshare() :-) http://paste.debian.net/1139892/ 11:13:18 hm, so that has to be setuid to be allowed to unshare? always seemed counterintuitive that sandboxing requires *additional* privileges... anything should be allowed to go further down its own rabbithole 11:14:16 olsner: you can use most of clone unprivilaged 11:14:22 and do some sandboxing for it 11:14:47 but I think you need to be root to set up bridge network devices in the containing host, which is very useful for sandboxing 11:14:48 b_jonas: oh, can I do that, hmm. 11:15:33 olsner: anyway, that you can do sandboxing as user is a noble goal, and the Linux devs are trying to go there, but the fact is, it's really hard to get right, and we don't want to compromise the kernel with security bugs because of that, so it's going slow 11:16:08 "Only a privileged process (CAP_SYS_ADMIN) can employ CLONE_NEWNET." 11:16:35 int-e: yes, which make sense, you couldn't modify the network devices in the other namespace as non-root anyway 11:17:07 in practice, you set up the sandbox with root privilages, then let the non-user access it 11:17:25 I should probably learn about that. (At least set up a loopback device) 11:17:51 int-e: sadly I don't know the details of sandbox network setup. I should learn about it some day. 11:18:19 Yeah exactly my point, I don't know about it either. 11:18:25 I guess start from (man 8 ip) and ask on irc 11:19:16 There's also network_namespaces(7). 11:19:26 makes sense that to e.g. bridge to a physical interface you'd need outside-system privileges, but it ought to be possible to e.g. set up an isolated sandbox and talk to it (e.g. do user-space port forwarding) without ever going "up" in privileges 11:20:22 olsner: but why put all that policy into the kernel when you can write a userspace daemon to do all that 11:22:11 (At the cost of messing up the process parenthood story.) 11:23:42 Anyway, some day... and in the meantime I'll enjoy the 5 minute hack. 11:24:18 b_jonas: Another starting point is the unshare command line tool, which supports at least some of the networking stuff. 11:27:34 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:28:17 `? password 11:28:19 The password of the month is starving for attention. 11:30:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:37:13 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70908&oldid=70907 * RocketRace * (+4990) Document YOU 11:50:57 [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70909&oldid=68863 * IFcoltransG * (+626) Added a link to another esoteric discord server 12:21:13 `? bfgen 12:21:16 bfgen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:21:19 `? bftextgen 12:21:21 bftextgen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:21:25 `bfgen text 12:21:26 bfgen? No such file or directory 12:21:34 how is this brainfuck generator named 12:21:34 I think it's called bfasm and asmbf 12:21:40 no, not this one 12:21:48 I mean the brainfuck code generator from a string 12:21:58 what's the fungot prefix, I forgot 12:22:10 nvm he's dead 12:22:20 the one that generated the casino program? you haven't got the source code of that, so unless it put a doc comment into the compiled code, you won't know the name 12:22:36 :P 12:22:55 `? genbf 12:22:56 genbf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:23:01 ``` type genbf 12:23:02 genbf is /hackenv/bin/genbf 12:23:07 ``` genbf --help 12:23:08 fold: invalid number of columns: '--help' 12:23:12 eh HackEso has had a brainfuck text generator 12:23:15 that's what I need right now 12:24:20 maybe the wiki links to one 12:28:41 eh nvm 12:28:45 I'll just use my old, inefficient one 12:43:51 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:44:29 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70910&oldid=70796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+294) /* Auto-formatting */ 12:45:46 -!- sprocklem has joined. 12:47:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:48:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:48:46 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70911&oldid=70910 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+157) 12:49:49 [[PlusOrMinus 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70912&oldid=70911 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* Resources */ 13:00:53 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70913&oldid=70762 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Languages */ 13:20:50 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70914&oldid=70326 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) 13:24:30 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:28:25 b_jonas: Oh great. Interfaces are created via the netlink (more specifically rtnetlink) protocol... the tools (iproute2) are developed in tandem with the kernel so this area is underdocumented. In particular, there's an IFLA_INFO_KIND attribute which one can set to "veth" to create that kind of device that I believe is not documented at all. 13:29:04 int-e: right. that's why the next step is to ask people on irc. 13:29:21 but you still have to look at the docs first before that 13:33:10 (Of course you can just execute the 'ip' tool with the right parameters in whatever namespace you want to manipulate.) 13:33:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:34:05 In any case, it can be figured out ... none of this is rocket science. :) 13:35:04 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70915&oldid=70913 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) 13:35:12 Reading the iproute2 sources is doable as well (that's how I found the IFLA_INFO_KIND thing in the first place... well, after also looking at the veth.c in the kernel sources and finding a reference to a "kind"). 13:35:40 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70916&oldid=70915 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) 13:35:55 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70917&oldid=70916 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64) end test 13:36:34 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:52:34 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70918&oldid=70914 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+620) 13:53:06 [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]]: another unnamed language 13:57:11 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70921&oldid=70919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+436) /* Operators */ 13:58:42 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70922&oldid=70921 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+87) /* Operators */ 13:58:51 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70923&oldid=70922 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Examples */ 13:59:10 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70924&oldid=70923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Examples */ 13:59:23 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70925&oldid=70924 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Operators */ 14:30:07 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70926&oldid=70889 * Uriel * (+44) added memory system category 15:03:56 int-e: i determined that the hanging/memory-hogging behaviour of BB(x) 35 is due to just a handful of terms 15:04:51 so we can subject BB(35) to manual analysis 15:13:40 in fact i have only 8 terms left to analyze 15:14:25 including one candidate for beating 3^27 15:25:19 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 15:26:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:28:40 [[Talk:NEGATOR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70927 * LegionMammal978 * (+215) Created page with "The closing brace mentions a "condition you put immediately after it"; what is the syntax of such a condition? ~~~~" 15:29:03 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:32:25 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:48:38 -!- imode has joined. 15:56:05 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70928&oldid=70925 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1089) 15:59:13 [[Ndef]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70929&oldid=36781 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 16:00:40 [[4]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70930&oldid=70926 * Ais523 * (+49) merely colon-linking to a category isn't enough to categorise, you have to add it to the category list too; also add [[Category:Implemented]] as well, while I'm here, because the page lists interpreters 16:07:47 [[NegaPosi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70931&oldid=8033 * LegionMammal978 * (+100) fixed links 16:11:07 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:14:01 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:17:05 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:20:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:28:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:55:04 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:58:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:58:54 huh, so it turns out that there's a practical use for the imp 16:59:25 on early models of the IBM 1620, the operator manually entering and running an imp was the standard way to clear memory between programs 16:59:41 I guess this is an argument for making the all-zeroes instruction an imp in a new processor design 16:59:47 ais523: what imp? 16:59:57 what is an imp? 17:00:00 an implementation? 17:00:01 an imp is a machine code instruction that copies itself to the next memory location in memory 17:00:15 so immediately after running, the next instruction now contains an imp too 17:00:21 ah 17:00:34 so it's a weird way to memset? 17:00:34 it will inevitably end up filling all of memory unless it hits a page fault or some other thread overwrites it just as it's about to run 17:00:47 ok 17:00:52 well, I didn't think imps had any practical use 17:00:57 but I was wrong, which is why I commented on it here 17:00:59 but many machines already have copy instructions that you can use to fill memory 17:01:08 as in memory copy instructions 17:01:10 [[Nine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70932&oldid=67039 * LegionMammal978 * (+173) added repo link and categories 17:01:30 and they work on overlapping memory if you want to make many repeated copies of a pattern (even a single byte) 17:02:15 and in the ones that don't, that's because there's a fast way based on normal instructions to do a block copy 17:02:28 yes, but that's not great for zeroing all of memory because a) it'll end up overwiting itself at some point, b) it's likely to be more than a single instruction long 17:02:49 ais523: sure, you zero all the memory other than that code instead 17:03:00 I did some research into the fastest way to bulk-store memory on a modern processor, it appears to involve nontemporal writes of 128 bits at a time from multiple different source registers 17:03:14 and that's a /lot/ of code 17:03:49 ais523: so? why is that a problem. isn't this for zeroing memory to make sure that no information from before remains? just make sure when you load that block of code that it doesn't have holes, so nothing but that code remains. 17:03:51 trying to get that to zero itself might be possible, though, because each loop iteration zeroes a huge amount of memory, so you could probably make the last iteration of the loop overwrite the entire program front-to-end 17:04:06 b_jonas: I guess, but it's inelegant 17:04:16 but if you want to zero that, you could use a slower but smaller zeroing method to zero that 17:04:46 actually, I can see one potential issue with using an imp to zero memory: because all of memory is now filled with an imp, it guarantees that the entire state of the running program will be wiped out if the instruction pointer ever goes out of bounds, making it hard to debug what happened 17:05:17 (unless your program counter doesn't wrap) 17:05:52 ais523: also that only works if the memory that you want to write forms a single solid contiguous segment, which is not always true in machines with bank changing or ROM or something 17:06:14 yes 17:06:20 it doesn't need a page fault, just a ROM that ignores writes 17:07:01 Does the Name „Imp“ come from Corewar? 17:07:01 anyway, on a vaguely related topic: does anyone know of computer storage devices that are reasonably possible to obtain in modern times, that store data (and transmit it to the computer) in 3-bit or 6-bit chunks? 17:07:02 or an unmapped memory area that ignores writes, in case of those old cpus that are in sync with the RAM 17:07:03 APic: yes 17:07:07 k 17:07:26 ais523: does it have to be hardware? I can emulate such a thing in software 17:07:28 six-channel paper tape would be an obvious choice but a) tape readers aren't readily available nowadays, b) six-channel is an uncommon size 17:07:55 b_jonas: ideally yes; I can emulate it in software too, and was planning to, but if the software is itself stored on an 8-bit disk it doesn't fit the intended usecase 17:08:01 I haven't heard of six-row paper tape 17:08:08 only 5 row and 7 row 17:09:16 I think 8-row was also used 17:09:21 but yes, 6 was not a standard size 17:11:05 ais523: on some floppy disk hardware, you could define a custom disk format that uses 6-bit bytes 17:11:24 or 12-bit words or something 17:12:42 I was wondering about reformatting a disk to use words that weren't 8 bits long 17:13:01 I don't have that much of a grasp about how low-level reformatting of a disk (changing tracks, cylinders, etc.) works 17:13:12 most of the "formatting" I'm aware of is actually file system creatino 17:13:14 *creation 17:14:19 ais523: on modern floppy drives, yes, because the hardware floppy controller handles most of those low level ops. but on the Commodore 1541, the floppy drive that is used the most often used with the Commodore 64, there's a cpu and rom and small RAM in the floppy drive that allows the user to reprogram it, 17:15:20 and the program that runs on the floppy drive handles individual low level bit read/write one by one (the cpu is fast enough for that), where the low level bits are such that you can't write more than three consecutive 0s or else it won't reliably read back or some such, 17:15:51 so the floppy drive program encodes 4 logical bits to 5 of those hardware bits, and it decodes an entire sector of I think 256 bytes before it reads it to the computer / after it writes it to the computer 17:16:10 ooh, maybe you need to reprogram the floppy drive firmware 17:16:12 I bet it's writable 17:16:15 but programmers often reprogrammed the floppy drive because the default program in the RAM is very slow, 17:16:22 actually figuring out how to write it is probably much harder tohugh 17:16:26 which is why there's a lot of practical information on the web about how to reprogram it 17:16:58 I don't know if anyone reprogrammed the drive to store 6-bit bytes, or how practical that is, because it's used with 8-bit computers 17:18:15 on the PC, you can't change that part of the program, because the floppy controller handles that part of the decoding itself. you can still change some parts of the floppy format, but I believe not the part of how many bits a byte has. 17:19:00 ais523: I think you can set the serial port of the PC to send and receive 6-bit bytes on a direct serial line, but that doesn't count as storage 17:19:22 b_jonas: agreed 17:20:05 setfdprm appears to think in terms of bytes, not bits, so I guess so does Linux 17:20:15 and probably PC hardware as a whole 17:20:30 so I guess you'd need to do sixbit-to-byte translation in the drive firmware 17:23:53 apparently the Amiga's floppy drive controller can be configured to any word size, that's "only" 30 years old 17:27:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:30:59 [[Noit o' mnain gelb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70933&oldid=27090 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 17:36:03 tromp: Hmm, looking at your criterion, I did re-discover that one myself in the meantime, with the same idea that ω-like terms are strict. (Pushed a more detailed proof.) 17:38:30 hmm, there seem to be philosophical issues about how much data a disk can store 17:39:38 with magnetic disk storage, there are physical limits to how densely you can pack transitions between 0s and 1s, but if you don't have any transitions for a sufficiently long time, it's difficult to read because you don't know where you are on the disk 17:40:06 so, e.g., on a CD, every 8-bit byte of data is encoded as 17 bits on the disk 17:40:36 tromp: I can't claim it's independent... you dropped a couple of hints on the channel. 17:40:41 CD is rather different from magnetic storage though 17:41:04 not really, you're right that it's optical rather than magnetic but much the same restrictions apply 17:43:20 data CD has a lot more error correction codes than floppy disks, apparently mostly to survive scratches of the foil part of the CD 17:43:36 admittedly it's newer 17:43:50 ah right, error correction 17:44:02 anyway, this leads to the philosophical question about just how large a file is 17:44:30 -!- ositoblanco has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:44:35 especially given that EOF needs to be encoded somehow 17:47:15 [[Nouse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70934&oldid=34796 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 17:48:19 it's quite crazy just how few error correction old floppy disks have. it's usually just a one or two byte checksum per sector. 17:48:52 and the checksum isn't even CRC, it's just a bytewise XOR checksum. wouldn't that lead to corrupted files that aren't detected? 17:49:04 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited <-- oh, fancy, there are some prefix codes in there 17:49:54 int-e: it wouldn't surprise me if optimal RLL codes /never/ had an integer number of bits per word 17:50:49 well, nobody wants to implement an optimal code 17:51:21 ais523: no, but they get pretty close. the code that the Commodore floppy uses encodes 4 bits to 5 physical bits, and there are 17 permissable codes for those 5 physical bits, of which 16 are used, IIRC 17:51:31 int-e: it'd let you fit more data on your drive 17:51:45 that's not optimal of course, because an optimal one would need to have much longer segments 17:51:58 or some dependency between the adjacent chunks 17:52:11 if you have a non-integer number of bits per word 17:52:19 then I think you have dependency that lasts forever 17:52:28 the last chunk on the disk might theoretically depend on the first chunk 17:52:38 (assuming a perfect code) 17:52:56 this would of course be bad for random-access writes, but might still be useful on a disk intended to be read-only 17:54:41 hmm, maybe tape drives would be better for this than floppy disks 17:56:51 even then you probably want units smaller than a whole disk. (it needn't be as small as the 256 byte sectors of course.) that doesn't lose you much with the encoding density if the chunks aren't too small. 17:58:30 Actually the unit should probably be below a sector... to reduce latency. 17:58:48 256 byte sector? What hardware is that... 17:59:00 int-e: no, it could be incrementally decodable 17:59:53 b_jonas: Hmm, not reliably. 18:00:08 int-e: 256 byte sectors for the default format for the Commodore 1541 floppy drive still, but I think also PC floppy drives in some of the lower density modes 18:01:50 int-e: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floppy_disk_formats 18:02:58 hmm no, that page says that PC floppy disk has formats with sector sizes 128, 1024, and 512 bytes. funny. 18:03:29 and the first two only for the big floppy disks, so mostly just 512 bytes per sector 18:03:45 so the Commodore formats then 18:06:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:14:08 int-e: i'm glad to hear you find the new rule sound 18:19:13 with the new rule, your BBx.hs will be able to examine all 35-bit terms except for some that follow this pattern: 18:19:19 > toughtriples :: DB -> Bool 18:19:19 > toughtriples (DBApp (DBLam (DBApp (DBApp (DBVar 0) (DBVar 0)) (DBVar 0))) (DBLam (DBLam (DBApp (DBVar 1) (DBApp (DBVar 1) _)))) ) = True 18:19:19 > toughtriples _ = False 18:19:23 :1:131: error: 18:19:23 parse error on input ‘=’ 18:19:23 Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block? 18:19:23 error: 18:19:23 Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘DB’ 18:19:25 :1:16: error: 18:19:27 parse error on input ‘=’ 18:19:29 Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block? 18:19:41 lambdabot: woah, hold your horses 18:19:54 tromp: this is a good argument against literate Haskell ;) 18:19:57 ok, so pasting from literate Haskell is not the brightest idea:( 18:20:47 it's terms like (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (???))) 18:21:12 right, (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 _)) 18:21:43 including our friend 3^3^3 18:21:44 Oh is that the thing that explodes? 18:22:01 and the inscrutable (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) 18:22:03 Makes sense, I guess. 18:22:12 which could beat it 18:23:21 possibly I may be having a brainfart right now, but I can't figure out one thing 18:23:29 b_jonas: As far as I can see, the IBM BIOS had no function for querying the sector size... so from some point onwards everybody assumed 512 bytes. 18:23:32 imagine an uint of given size 18:23:38 note the similarity with the BB 31 recordholder (\1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) 18:23:42 b_jonas: the PC one, I mean 18:23:58 now if it contains a certain value, and I'll keep subtracting a certain value from it over and over again 18:23:59 tromp: Yeah I noticed the similarity. 18:24:12 how can I determine will it ever reach zero 18:24:48 \\2 (2 (1 2)) is the evil twin of \\2 (2 (2 1)) :-) 18:24:52 kspalaiologos: check which of the value has more 0 bits at the end. 18:25:17 5 and 3 will finish 18:25:30 5 has more of them 18:25:52 5 and 6 won't finish 18:25:58 and 5 still has more 0 bits at the end 18:26:12 ka = b (mod m) has a solution k if gcd(a, m) divides b. In this case, m is a power of 2, 2^n, and the gcd can be found by looking at the trailing 0 bits. 18:26:18 int-e: is that for the floppy or for the hard disk? 18:26:24 b_jonas: yes. 18:26:31 both 18:26:45 isn't sector size saved in BPB? 18:26:55 so there's ultimately no reason to query BIOS 18:27:25 well having a uniform sector size is certainly convenient for software 18:28:37 anyways 18:31:58 Hmm. INT 13 - HARD DISK - PS/1 and newer PS/2 - IDENTIFY DRIVE 18:32:20 Okay, I'm confused here. 18:33:05 Ah. Microsoft added extensions to INT 13? One of which allows to query the sector size. 18:35:09 kspalaiologos: But yeah you're right, this is stored in the BPB (which I conveniently forgot about. It has been about 20 years since I actively knew this stuff...). 18:35:33 My mistake was to look at INT 13 alone, but there is INT 1E - SYSTEM DATA - DISKETTE PARAMETERS 18:35:49 also 18:35:53 why would you query BIOS 18:35:56 CMOS contains all this data 18:36:13 I forgot which registers are they, but I'm 100% sure it contains data you need 18:36:27 Well, eww. 18:36:43 The BIOS is there so you don't have to do everything with in/out. :P 18:37:17 writing CMOS is much cooler 18:37:26 and faster! 18:37:29 Does any modern PC include a programming environment in ROM? I think it ought to do, whether it is BASIC, Forth, or assembly language. This way the computer is usable even without an operating system. 18:37:57 ... 18:38:38 Back in reality, no it doesn't, unless you count the utilities for flashing a new BIOS. 18:39:48 you can "accidentally" set a BIOS password 18:40:10 switch drive geometry around 18:40:19 flash AMI/Award/Phoenix BIOS :P 18:41:01 I prefer a computer in working order. 18:41:18 it's just a personal preference :P 18:41:32 Let me rephrase. 18:41:41 This may sound extreme, but I prefer a computer in working order. 18:41:46 yes, I know 18:42:08 and I stated that I (may) like my old PC screwed 18:42:10 I'm okay with it not running and Malbolge code though. 18:43:30 I wonder could one smh find a vulnerability in the stock Malbolge interpreter 18:43:33 Oh I have fond memories of a particular HDD failure. It was a 70MB MFM drive, no important data left on it (I think)... for which one of the address bits was broken. 18:44:00 a week ago I ran my malware on an old DOS computer 18:44:02 checkdsk & co. had a field day with it... and it took me some poking around to figure out just how broken it was :) 18:44:09 now it doesn't boot from any device 18:44:26 the hard disk contents are trashed 18:44:37 mal(bolge soft)ware 18:44:40 lmao 18:45:11 I may have discovered a piece of code back then that may make CRT monitors explode 18:45:16 but personally, didn't test it :P 18:46:17 I wonder would dgx-2 run my chess engine 18:46:18 capacitors, blue smoke 18:46:28 in malbolge 18:46:59 (You should not be able to blow up the CRT itself. But the high frequency circuit driving the beam... that's an entirely different story.) 18:47:07 [[Nyarlathotep]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70935&oldid=44425 * LegionMammal978 * (+24) /* External resources */ fixed link 18:48:15 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:48:26 I don't miss CRTs, except for one small thing... 18:48:37 ...the psychedelic color effects that you could achieve with a magnet. 18:48:40 thank god CRT monitors are gone 18:48:50 I don't miss a single thing about them 18:49:08 But really, that's the only positive thing about them that I can remember :) 18:49:31 if I had a CRT monitor to spare 18:49:33 Somebody should emulate it in an LCD. ;) 18:49:40 and balls big enough to test the code 18:49:49 we'd know definitely :p 18:50:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:50:07 but it may explode only the cheapy monitors 18:50:19 I could write a fuzzer though 18:50:37 I *have* seen a blown up capacitor that was responsible for the horizontal ray alignment in a monitor I used to have. 18:50:50 The good thing about CRT is that it works OK even if the resolution is wrong. Other than that, I think CRT is not as good as LCD. 18:51:18 I repared that actually... later it totally lost the green beam. That I didn't fix... got a new monitor soon after. 18:51:27 also X-Rays 18:51:30 that CRT emits 18:51:40 (I know that it's not the beam that's colored, obviously.) 18:52:07 also what's the blue smoke 18:52:14 I've never had a crt monitor do that 18:52:19 a capacitor is it? 18:52:27 I'm not sure what specific component burns blue 18:52:32 capacitor smoke is normally gray, in my experience 18:52:35 "the face is typically made of thick lead glass so as to be highly shatter-resistant and to block most X-ray emissions" 18:52:38 although maybe it depends on the type of capacitor 18:52:46 I don't think the x-ray was a big issue in practice? 18:52:58 ais523: I did not actually see the smoke :) 18:53:16 kspalaiologos: re: deleting pages, it can't be done without an administrator verifying the deletion is appropriate/necessary, so that people can't unilaterally delete the history of content 18:53:19 one can make a capacitor out of many things 18:53:27 I guess blue is kind of the default color for smoke I've never seen myself, for no good reason. 18:53:30 and especially for User talk: pages, which are often used to send people warnings, it's important to maintain a record 18:54:02 so I wouldn't be surprised to see a capacitor emit blue smoke 18:54:04 however, if there's no reason not to delete something and it's primarily the work of one person, we normally delete it on request unless there's a reason not to 18:54:25 well my talk page is empty right now, deletion would be a cosmetical change but I don' 18:54:26 t really care 18:54:56 also, how often it happens that users get warned 18:55:10 this wiki isn't moderated like very carefully and amount of trolls is moderately low 18:55:21 kspalaiologos: haha, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Degauss_in_progress.jpg 18:55:47 whoa 18:55:51 (didn't expect to see a picture of that... on Wikipedia) 18:56:01 wow, it only just crossed my mind that plenty of today's computer users will never have seen a degauss 18:56:09 back when I was in school we used to degauss monitors for fun 18:56:19 (which was ultimately good for the monitors too, of course) 18:56:52 I didn't see it being performed :P 18:57:03 when CRT monitors were in use, I was just an average PC user 18:57:10 most monitors of the time period had built-in degauss circuits 18:57:24 so all you needed to do is to know which controls on the monitor triggered them 18:58:23 how did you do that manually 18:58:33 like when the circuit is not present at all 18:58:46 you'd probably need a portable degaussing coil 18:58:50 held close to the screen 18:59:36 The picture is lacking the *foom* noise that went with the process though... let's check youtube. 18:59:37 hmmmm 18:59:44 I didn't know such things existed 18:59:58 the noise of a degaussing is quite hard to describe 19:00:05 kspalaiologos: apparently they were originally invented for use on warships 19:00:11 so they'd have to be scaled down a lot to be used on a CRT monitor 19:00:37 (warships benefit from being degaussed because many automated warship-detection devices used magnetism to do the detection) 19:00:53 [[OOo CODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70936&oldid=50071 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ note 19:01:04 11:56 < ais523> back when I was in school we used to degauss monitors for fun 19:01:05 same 19:01:12 and when you degaussed one monitor it would slightly mess up the one next to it 19:01:44 and yeah, the Navy had a degaussing station in San Francisco 19:01:51 you can still go look at the shack which used to contain it 19:05:10 Wikipedia says that portable degaussing coils for use on monitors exist, but give no information about what they look like, what shape they are, etc. 19:06:55 it strikes me that maybe ebay will have listings for them 19:07:14 yep 19:07:42 there seem to be multiple different designs, some circular, some more wand-like 19:08:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy-T6m7F_aQ is similar to what I remember 19:08:24 (degauss sound) 19:08:48 quite expensive nowadays, but that likely makes sense, I imagine there's not much call to manufacture new ones, so the supply will reduce faster than the demand 19:11:33 when we first had TFT monitors, I liked CRTs because they had more vivid colors. but TFT monitors have improved since. 19:12:03 and CRTs have other drawbacks, like a less sharp image and often flickering unless you drive it on a very high refresh rate 19:13:10 CRTs often have lots of unnecessary additional circuitry for marketing reasons that slows their response time 19:13:17 * TFTs, and later OLEDs 19:13:24 it's the CRTs that typically don't 19:13:54 I forget what technology modern screens typically use 19:14:00 I think TFT is outdated by now 19:14:55 hmm, maybe not, it was apparently used almost universally in 2013 but I can't find newer dat 19:14:57 *data 19:15:25 kspalaiologos: "deletion would be a cosmetical change" => it got deleted hours ago I think 19:15:59 I see now 19:16:24 ais523: "(warships benefit from being degaussed because many automated warship-detection devices used magnetism to do the detection)" => interesting, I didn't know this 19:16:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:17:06 hmm, aparently OLEDs didn't catch on due to having a few issues that were hard to work around 19:17:10 so probably we still use TFT variants 19:17:12 ais523: I think the TFT part is still up-to-date (as far as LCD displays are concerned); what has changed are the mechanisms by which the liquid crystals affect the light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin-film-transistor_liquid-crystal_display has a list. TN is traditional, IPS is probably most common 19:18:05 there are weird points in the comparison, e.g. OLEDs use less power than TFTs to display black, but more to display white 19:18:29 so which is more efficient depends on what images are being viewed 19:19:42 ais523: I think that's because they use these stupid heuristics where if the image is mostly dark, they turn the brighness of the leds down, which makes sense for stuff like TV films, but less for a computer interface. You can't really do with the fluorescent back lighting that traditional TFTs use. 19:19:56 wait, they use more power to display white? how? 19:20:48 don't LEDs automatically take half or a third of the power of the most efficient non-LED lighting because they are more narrow spectrum, it's just that they also have worse spectrum which is annoying 19:20:57 b_jonas: the lighting on a TFT is also LED, though 19:21:06 so maybe OLEDs draw more power than regular LEDs 19:21:36 also, TFTs use white LEDs for their backlighting 19:21:41 whereas an OLED uses a mix of red/green/blue 19:21:44 which may well make a difference 19:21:54 ah 19:22:13 hmm, I miss being able to use computer monitors with the backlight off 19:22:16 but aren't white leds also a mix of different colored leds? 19:22:19 it was never very practical, but it was sort-of doable 19:22:23 the magic part is the blue leds 19:22:24 b_jonas: two rather than three (blue + orange) 19:22:39 and they still are worse in blue than other light sources 19:22:47 ok 19:22:49 one of my older laptops, with the backlight off the monitor worked just fine in direct sunlight 19:22:56 (but you had to turn it back on again in dimmer lighting conditions) 19:23:00 ais523: is that a color monitor? 19:23:04 yes 19:23:09 [[Object oriented thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70937&oldid=54004 * LegionMammal978 * (-22) /* External resources */ fixed link 19:23:21 yeah you just need a sufficiently reflective back surface i'd guess 19:23:26 * ais523 visualises a CRT laptop 19:23:38 ais523: there are "portable computers" with CRT 19:23:41 they made sense back then 19:23:49 I think the word "luggable" is often used for those 19:23:51 rather small CRTs, mind you 19:23:56 careful, your neck might collapse under the strain 19:24:32 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Object oriented thue]] to [[Object oriented Thue]]: fix capitalization 19:24:32 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Object oriented thue]] to [[Talk:Object oriented Thue]]: fix capitalization 19:24:41 what are the limits on the geometry of a CRT like anyway 19:25:00 like there's obviously a maximum practical angle on the cone but idk what constrains it 19:25:59 to get the deflection of the beam (which is what moves it within the cone) you need huge voltages 19:26:21 also, the greater the deflection angle, the more accurate you have to be 19:26:25 yeah 19:27:16 so you're trying to rapidly change the voltage on the deflector coils to a sequence of accurate, very high values, very rapidly 19:27:29 and that's not very easy to do 19:27:54 especially given the deflector coils are presumably inductors 19:28:14 yes 19:28:37 although in this case the back-emf is basically only a problem during power on and power off, and maybe hblank 19:29:05 because you're changing the value in a set pattern and can allow for the inductance in advance 19:29:25 (also, during hblank, the beam is turned off so it doesn't matter if the voltage doesn't change instantly or linearly) 19:30:51 so a typical TV's deflector coils would be in the 1-10 kilovolt range 19:30:55 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED#Efficiency_of_blue_OLEDs is one ingredient to the power efficiency puzzle 19:33:01 Another, probably smaller, part is that perhaps there's more loss due to resistance between power supply and the actual LEDs. (All the energy emitted by the display has to be transported to some individual pixel, whereas for LCDs only a comparatively smaller power for driving the crystals plus the transistor has to be pushed to individual puzzles.) 19:33:18 huh, according to Wikipedia, there are such things as CRT printers 19:33:24 what 19:33:29 they electrostatically charged the paper 19:33:35 But the absence of efficient blue OLEDs seems more significant. 19:33:35 then it was placed next to electrostatically charged ink 19:33:37 that would be a laser printer 19:33:49 ais523: fun. 19:33:52 b_jonas: but with beta radiation, not electromagnetic radiation 19:34:04 which I guess is the fundamental difference 19:34:21 a laser printer electrostatically charges the paper, then discharges it with a laser beam anywhere where it wants to leave that white, then puts the paper next to the toner casette so it electrostatically attracts black ink 19:34:33 I see 19:34:47 that sounds rather impractical 19:34:51 b_jonas: isn't it the drum that's being charged and discharged 19:34:57 b_jonas: well it was abandoned in the 1960s 19:35:01 so probably it was actually impractical 19:35:12 int-e: I don't really know 19:35:21 back then it took a while to discover the practical computer technologies, so they had to make do with eso computers until they found a practical way to do things 19:35:22 superceded by better technology. 19:35:32 I just use this nonsense as a customer 19:35:48 b_jonas: I'm pretty sure it's the drum... otherwise buying the right paper for a laser printer would be a huge hassle. 19:36:06 int-e: why? ordinary paper can be charge electrostatically 19:36:24 crt printer still seems less out there than using crt for main memory which was totally mainstream for a while 19:36:32 There is no "c" in "supersedes"; even the specification for netnews articles says there is no "c" in "supersedes". 19:36:50 b_jonas: charged and discharged reliably at 600 dpi? 19:37:11 Phantom_Hoover: you have to realise just how terrible the available read/write memory technologies were in the 1940s 19:37:17 int-e: only discharged at that resolution, they're charged uniformly 19:37:28 there were no good options, so all the bad options were explored quite comprehensively 19:37:30 i mean i know about mercury delay lines so im well aware 19:37:39 b_jonas: I can't refute the idea, but I'm pretty sure it's the drum... which is a more or less fixed part of the printer so much easier to control anyway :P 19:37:46 when magnetic core memory was invented in 1955 it was a huge relief to everyone 19:37:54 (even though it's /still/ a terrible storage technology by modern standards) 19:38:08 ais523: no surprise, because SRAM became practical only with integrated circuits 19:38:31 it required at least the transistor one assumes 19:38:48 was there a period where using discrete transistors for RAM was practical actually...? 19:39:05 I have an old book about computers which is post-transistor but pre-integrated-circuit 19:39:27 it talks about the use of transistors for logic, and also for amplification (for use in analog computers) 19:39:47 but assumes magnetic core as the only practical memory technology for storing large amounts of read/write data 19:40:10 ais523: only? doesn't it assume magnetic disks are available for that? 19:40:24 I know they're not random accessible 19:40:29 b_jonas: disks? no 19:40:35 I'm not sure if magnetic tape had been invented at the time 19:40:42 but disks are way newer than the book 19:40:46 oh, pre-integrated-circuit 19:40:55 that must be really old 19:41:05 oh more crazy old memory devices... https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/williams_kilburn_williams_kilburn_ram.html 19:41:08 i legit didn't know tape was still widely used until i heard about it in training for my current job 19:41:20 which is honestly somewhat surprising given how much general reading i do 19:41:32 Phantom_Hoover: it's _optical_ tape that's currently widely used, for high capacity backups 19:41:41 magnetic tapes are no longer widely used 19:41:46 sceptical 19:41:48 -!- nona has joined. 19:42:17 > object oriented thue 19:42:20 error: 19:42:20 Variable not in scope: object :: t0 -> t1 -> terror: Variable not in sco... 19:42:23 oh boy, what is it now 19:42:29 tapes are where the magneto-optical recording technology went, isn't it 19:42:29 magnetic tape was still widely used for backups fairly recently 19:42:30 and I don't think magnetic takes ever worked really well for digital data; they were used for analog data as in voice or video because the hardware is cheap, but the tape degraded too quickly 19:42:36 ais523: oh ok 19:42:47 (I'm not sure whether people would use "tar" for communicating with it, though!) 19:42:50 then I'm just wrong 19:43:05 this is amazing, but isn't it like 19:43:07 yeah i think they're still the standard bulk archive medium in industry 19:43:17 when a P/L is nondeterministic it's not the best idea to let it allow filesystem and stuff 19:43:45 thue is only nondeterministic if you let it 19:44:03 I get annoyed because most people interpret Thue's "nondeterministic" as "probabilistic" 19:44:13 when I'm pretty sure it's nondeterministic in the CS theory sense, like a nondeterministic finite automaton 19:44:31 i just read it as 'the choice of substitution is implementation-defined' 19:44:33 this means that most existing Thue interps don't actually interpret it properly 19:45:08 ais523: no, I think it's nondeterministic in the third sense, which is that the behavior is underspecified, interpreters choose whatever is the most convenient for them 19:45:12 MIT wanted to charge IBM $0.02 per bit royalty on core memory. 19:45:19 i'm v much with b here 19:45:35 well, bear in mind that semi-Thue grammars were intended as a computational model 19:45:35 not in the sense where it's probabilistic, nor in the sense where they theoretically find the one succeeding path among exponentially many failing paths 19:45:50 the thue spec doesnt talk about that kind of branching execution anywhere, it's the parsimonious reading 19:46:07 ais523: having worked in rewriting, I agree with what b_jonas said 19:46:13 I'm trying to imagine where computer memories would be today if the royalty payments were 2¢ per bit 19:46:33 also NFA semantics are kind of defined in terms of a machine accepting a language which makes no sense given thue's semantics 19:46:43 which is why confluence is held in such high regard in the field because it largely says that the reduction strategy doesn't matter. (modulo non-termination issues) 19:46:53 a modern computer would cost 80 billion dollars just in memory royalty payments alone 19:47:01 (although maybe people would write more memory-efficient programs!) 19:47:18 ais523: But maybe you'd also have a paycheck of corresponding size :P 19:47:41 int-e: you think the problem would be solved using hyperinflation? that's ingenious, but would likely bring its own problems 19:48:30 the value of the currency is indexed against the bit 19:48:35 this is the true bitcoin 19:48:41 Phantom_Hoover: <3 19:49:02 I think it's But is it art that is nondeterministic in the theoretical CS 19:50:11 b_jonas: yes BIIA? is CS-theory-nondeterministic 19:50:20 and a few other languages like that 19:50:40 most notably https://esolangs.org/wiki/Precognition, which I feel would be used much more if only I or someone else put in the necessary thought and time to implement it 19:51:02 ais523: isn't that a patent royalty though, with the patent expiring in like 20 years? 19:51:10 Phantom_Hoover: Let's make that a love parade: ☙♡♥❣❤❥❦❧🂱🎔💓💔💕💖💗💘💞🖤😍 19:51:40 b_jonas: assume the lawyers could figure out some way to extend it :-D 19:51:50 (that isn't legally meant to be possible, but patent law is a mess) 19:52:06 they could extend it to 30 years. that'd still have expired 30 years ago. 19:52:34 the way to extend it is to make an improved version so people use that instead of the original one, right? 19:52:56 like they could patent DRAM 19:53:17 and maybe patent different variants of DRAM 19:53:33 patent the version with the sense/inhibit wires combined 19:53:36 only of course IBM didn't come up with those 19:53:38 but only when the first patent is running out 19:54:11 . o O ( degauss your core ) 19:55:07 int-e: that would basically just delete the entirety of memory, wouldn't it? 19:55:10 int-e, its fucked up how there are like 1000 heart emojis but 0 emojis aboutr the boys being back in town 19:55:15 though wait, isn't most of the RAM made in China these days, and patents don't work there? 19:55:16 replacing its contents with ½ bits (which are somewhere between 0 bits and 1 bits) 19:55:29 Phantom_Hoover: it's a cruel world 19:55:43 it's unclear what happens when a digital memory controller reads a memory cell with a value of ½ 19:55:46 b_jonas: of course they work if they want to sell the stuff abroad 19:56:00 presumably it would be interpreted as either 0 or 1, but whether this is deterministic or not depends on the exact details of the circuitry, I expect 19:56:02 b_jonas: China is now patenting more than the US though :P 19:56:13 int-e: the question is not how much they're patenting 19:56:18 the question is how patents are enforced 19:56:34 now im no expert but i believe quantum computing is basically when all your bits split in half and they tell you the prime factors of everyones private keys 19:57:23 b_jonas: ask the WIPO. 19:57:48 what is the WIPO? 19:57:50 `? WIPO 19:57:52 WIPO? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:57:58 Phantom_Hoover: You didn't have to elaborate after "im no expert" ;) 19:58:26 World "Intellectual Property" Organization 19:58:32 ah I see 19:58:35 (I think they prefer it without the quotes) 19:58:53 you can put the quotes in other places too 19:58:59 "World" Intellectual Property Organization 19:59:04 World Intellectual Property "Organization" 19:59:04 ^ yes, because of China 19:59:09 these are probably less accurate, but it's fun 19:59:19 ais523: I like the former 19:59:39 world "intellectual" property organisation 19:59:50 these frauds couldnt tell their picassos from their nabokovs 20:00:04 World Intellectual "Property" Organization works too in some sense 20:00:10 (because it is about the so-called "developed countries" exploiting the so-called "developing countries" 20:00:13 ) 20:02:52 fungot: where are you? 20:04:22 a guy has inboxed me a few minutes ago 20:04:30 he's made a proof-of-concept asm2bf IDE 20:04:59 with language server, linter, syntax checking, formatter, syntax highlighting and code completion 20:05:08 "inbox, v. ???" 20:05:21 it's getting hillariously serious by now 20:05:44 . o O ( Don't blame Hillary for that one ) 20:06:43 I wonder how many brainfuck IDEs the world needs 20:06:50 esotericide is probably enough by itself 20:07:01 and now there's another one? 20:07:16 kspalaiologos: so this like plugs into MS visual studio? 20:07:23 or Eclipse or whatever? 20:07:30 standalone IDE 20:07:32 terminal-based 20:08:36 int-e: did you find Chaitin's thesis online? 20:08:53 tromp: not recently 20:10:21 I like IDE plugins since some time now. A major IDE is usually well-debugged, functional etc., and to write it all from scratch? oh no. And usually the support for this or that language needs not as much work, for it to be done with quality, if writing it as a plugin for an existing IDE 20:10:26 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 20:10:29 the programs on https://int-e.eu/~bf3/AIT/ are not accompanied by the theorems they're proving 20:10:39 I hadn’t written any plugins yet, though 20:10:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:11:31 tromp: the statements are in the notes. 20:11:43 it's all very much preliminary 20:12:02 I see 20:14:06 arseniiv, a language server makes it easy to plug asm2bf to vscode for instance 20:15:36 -!- nona has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:17:18 kspalaiologos: I seriously looked into VS Code's language server / plugin architecture 20:17:21 I hate it 20:17:36 I don't use VSCode, problem solved 20:17:42 meme made by Vim gang 20:18:11 well, I really do like the idea of having a standard for communication between editors and programming language implementations 20:18:22 I just really don't like the details of the Language Server Protocol 20:18:32 I don't need key combinations to pilot a car. this post was made by the nano gang. 20:18:55 and the existence of a current standard that's bad is really frustrating, because it reduces the chance of getting a good standard (because you don't want two standards coexisting) 20:21:53 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 20:22:18 mediocre is the enemy of good? 20:22:40 (It seriously is. I wonder whether it's something people commonly say.) 20:23:34 int-e: people say it both ways 20:23:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:23:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 20:23:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:24:08 I do know the "perfect is the enemy of good" version is a thing. 20:24:32 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:24:40 every Language Server Protocol message must be prefixed by "Content-Length:", then a decimal number indicating the length, then two \r\n pairs, then a JSON object which contains the key/value pair "jsonrpc": "2.0" 20:24:58 that's a crazy amount of overhead for every single message, much of it redundant 20:25:33 also, this is the first time I've seen a string format which is somehow delimited and length-prefixed at the same time (the delimiter used to determine where the length ends) 20:25:44 Does it specify a maximum length of the first line? 20:26:09 no 20:26:26 nor is there a theoretical maximum length, because JSON allows arbitrary amounts of whitespace 20:26:28 Content-Length: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000...0000000000000000042\r\n 20:26:47 oh, or that :-D 20:26:52 I wonder how VS Code would react to that 20:26:54 int-e: yeah, there are HTTP clients that have bugs with stuff like that 20:27:08 b_jonas: color me unsurprised 20:27:28 :((( I hoped VS Code would be better than this, ow 20:27:36 arseniiv: this isn't even the worst bit 20:27:40 I can't remember what the worst bit was 20:27:47 and am unsure whether I should keep reading the specification to rediscover it 20:27:51 like they receive FFFFFFFFFF\r\n for chunked encoding chunk header, and they try to allocate terabytes of memory and crash 20:27:54 I believe 20:29:01 ais523: I hope what's inside is actuall a json-rpc message at least. 20:29:27 int-e: it's a compatible format, so yes 20:29:41 (which mandates that version field) 20:29:51 https://dailyvoice.com/new-jersey/mercer/obituaries/covid-19-kills-renowned-princeton-mathematician-game-of-life-inventor-john-conway-in-3-days/786461/ 20:29:52 (it uses a subset of json-rpc, but defines the API in such a way that the remaining functionality could never be used) 20:30:11 (Wikipedia considers this source sufficient) 20:30:23 Sgeo__: ouch 20:31:01 RIP John H Conway 20:31:18 it's been confirmed? damn.. 20:31:23 Sgeo__: still based on the tweets we've already seen it seems 20:32:03 [[Omnifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70942&oldid=44612 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 20:32:11 another great Mathematician lost after Jiří Matoušek, Marvin Minsky, and Raymond Smullyan 20:32:30 man fuck it was covid too? 20:32:37 imode: Well, there's a tweet by a Princeton guy who presumably has first-hand information, so there isn't too much doubt. 20:33:15 imode: But the article does not indicate any information beyond that. 20:33:21 if it turns out to be the same thing as 2015 it's gonna be hilarious. 20:33:35 I'm expecting an update at https://www.math.princeton.edu/ next week. 20:33:37 what happened in 2015? 20:33:51 his death was reported, and he was like "uh, I'm still here." 20:34:05 iirc. 20:34:14 But that was April 1st. 20:34:25 ah. forgot the date. 20:34:30 also, not during a pandemic 20:34:36 poor Conway :( 20:34:36 don't really see how an obituary could've appeared with details like him getting a fever and dying in 3 days without being deliberately made up whole cloth 20:35:22 wait lol this means he was about the same age as kenny rogers 20:35:29 Not the first story of covid-19 killing old people quickly (and without severe symptoms) that I've read these days. 20:35:52 wonder what secrets he kept in his head. 20:36:19 well, I hope this story is made up, at least; jokes in bad taste are bad, but people dying is worse 20:36:48 it's starting to get harder to deny that he's dead. here's hoping he's not and we have a laugh about it. 20:36:51 i would more or less write off that chance tbh 20:37:05 i mean people die anyway, especially when they're 81 20:37:24 Phantom_Hoover: ordinary people. not ones like Conway. 20:37:32 imode: maybe whether the Euler—Mascheroni γ is rational or not 20:37:41 Phantom_Hoover: 82 acturally 20:37:55 rrrrrally. 20:38:10 rrrrrrrr 20:38:24 81 would have been smoother 20:39:29 oh yeah that is 82 20:41:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:42:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:43:37 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:06:10 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Owhelgossip]] to [[OwhelGossip]]: fix capitalization 21:06:10 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Owhelgossip]] to [[Talk:OwhelGossip]]: fix capitalization 21:10:08 [[Indent]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4914) Named after function blocks 21:10:11 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70948&oldid=70928 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2354) this language? 21:11:02 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70949&oldid=70917 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Languages */ 21:11:25 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70950&oldid=70881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* I */ Indent 21:17:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:35:17 [[Owl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70951&oldid=55994 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 21:36:56 [[OwoScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70952&oldid=60044 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 21:38:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:41:27 [[P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70953&oldid=11661 * LegionMammal978 * (+38) /* External resources */ fixed link 21:42:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:42:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:49:21 [[PHL 1.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70954&oldid=53786 * LegionMammal978 * (+78) fixed links 22:08:07 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Pac]] to [[PAC]]: fix capitalization 22:15:34 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:21:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:23:35 [[Parenthetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70957&oldid=32099 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed capitalization based on repo 22:25:54 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:28:03 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:28:34 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/life-2 SMBC did an obituary strip already 22:28:44 we'll see what xkcd posts a day from now 22:47:35 https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4732 obituary by Scott Aaronson 22:52:24 comments section has reactions by other people 22:52:51 also https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/john-conway/ 22:57:35 [[Pile.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70958&oldid=46341 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 23:09:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:11:02 should we do something to https://esolangs.org/wiki/John_Horton_Conway ? 23:18:08 well, the obvious is -> was. 23:21:03 that's sad 23:21:38 RIP :( 23:27:41 tromp: (\1 1 1) (\\2 (2 (1 2))) is not a winner, it has a normal form of size 4186155666, which the reduction engine in the blc tool can actually compute in a few minutes. 23:28:45 > 3^27 / 4186155666 23:28:48 1821.6230100858843 23:29:14 > (6*3^27+5) / 4186155666 -- small margin 23:29:17 10929.7380605165 23:29:24 hrm 23:29:31 > (5*3^27+6) / 4186155666 23:29:33 9108.115050430855 23:31:23 tromp: which is disappointing because I spent quite some effort on working with smaller terms, only to find that it was all manageable from the outset. 23:31:51 [[HaltJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70959&oldid=69384 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 23:32:19 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70960&oldid=70949 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) 23:33:05 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70961&oldid=70950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* H */ 23:33:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:53:17 [[Pointer-ng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70962&oldid=45230 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) fixed title 2020-04-13: 00:01:47 -!- shachaf has joined. 00:02:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imquk_3oFf4 is pretty impressive. 00:06:14 [[Talk:Pointless.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70963 * LegionMammal978 * (+384) Created page with "It might be a good idea to call this "Pointless (Qpliu)" or something to make it more explicit that the language name does not include a literal period. (Potentially, Pointl..." 00:30:45 Does someone play Magic: the Gathering with draft and duplicate sealed both together? 00:33:06 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:35:55 [[Printf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70964&oldid=68188 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 00:45:39 [[Probie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70965&oldid=69686 * LegionMammal978 * (-8) fixed link 00:48:13 One idea I thought of for Magic: the Gathering, is there is meld to make a single object from two objects, which are then two objects again when it leaves the battlefield, so I thought the other way would be something that causes the card to become two objects once it enters the battlefield, and then moving either or both of them causes it to become a single object again. 00:51:34 That is even more confusing, I think, but perhaps rules can be written which can work. 00:55:04 I thought, each half can have different characteristics, timestamps, controller, counters, status, damage, etc, but never different owners or zone. 01:01:24 [[PyText?!.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70966&oldid=53077 * LegionMammal978 * (+17) fixed code block 01:08:09 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Q-Bal]] to [[Q-BAL]]: fix capitalization 01:08:40 [[Q-BAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70969&oldid=70967 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) fixed capitalization 01:09:39 The problem is in case two effects conflict in which zone they are trying to move the two halfs to. 01:15:06 But, I think there are solutions to this too. One is the case of replacement effects, in which case the normal rules for replacement effects apply. The other case is if an effect tries to move one half to one zone and the other have to another zone, then it moves to the first zone, and the other half is no longer in the battlefield so the effect fails to find it and fails to move it. 01:31:34 -!- sftp has joined. 01:32:02 [[QKAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70970&oldid=45919 * LegionMammal978 * (+54) fixed links 01:46:02 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 01:46:18 -!- sftp has joined. 01:58:10 [[Qwertyuiopasdfghjkl;vb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70971&oldid=56020 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 02:00:59 What file formats allow for one file that can be read in multiple formats? 02:14:10 Can you explain better what you mean, perhaps? 02:19:27 Sgeo__: you mean like a polyglot? 02:19:53 the main restriction is that the two formats can't require conflicting bytes at the same byte position (e.g. magic numbers that clash) 02:20:01 Yes, like a file format polygot, png and something else for instance. I copuld have sworn I saw one in a book about web securit 02:20:02 y 02:20:22 normally, if there isn't something that obviously blocks it like that, you can make it work 02:20:38 I vaguely remember that zip has its header at the end, so zip/something polyglots are common 02:21:30 yep 02:21:38 Windows PE files don't have their header at the beginning, if I remember correctly? 02:21:41 oh wow this format is stupid 02:22:06 the zip file header comes at the end of the file, but its last field is free text (length-prefixed), it's variable length, and the header is at the start 02:22:19 this implies among other things that it's possible to polyglot zip with itself without violating the format 02:22:22 s oyou get an ambiguous zip file 02:23:13 shachaf: there are two headers, one is the "MZ" magic number that has to go at the start but just indicates a DOS/Windows executable in general, there's a second header at a fixed offset that clarifies what sort of executable 02:23:32 You could have PNG and ZIP together; I have done that. 02:23:47 Hmm, maybe the MZ is still required, which would make sense. 02:24:04 But I vaguely remember something about a PE polyglot of some sort. 02:24:18 "MZ" is probably short enough to work into a polyglot with something else 02:24:24 source code, for example 02:24:53 oh wow, could you create source code that compiles into itself? 02:24:56 a sort of compile-time quine 02:25:19 Treating the compiler as an interpreter. 02:26:05 [[Rand.Next()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70972&oldid=31579 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 02:26:18 I suspect it wouldn't be possible with typical architectures and languages. 02:26:18 well, you could go further and make the resulting executable print itself when actually run, too 02:26:46 the problem is that languages have a fixed executable stub, normally, which clearly isn't valid source code 02:26:58 at least if we're talking about Windows .exe 02:27:11 You could generate .com 02:27:11 and I'm not sure what sort of linker magic you'd need to replace it 02:27:17 .com would be a lot easier, yes 02:27:21 COM format DOS programs do not have MZ at the beginning; it is x86 instructions. 02:27:45 But even that doesn't sound very feasible with most languages. 02:28:11 you just need to start a comment in one or the other language as soon as possible 02:29:02 Hmm. 02:29:30 bleh, '/' isn't a valid machine code instruction on x86 02:29:36 err, on x86_64 02:29:42 .com is 32-bit, though, it might be valid there 02:30:20 ooh, it is 02:30:22 also, I'm wrong 02:30:24 .com is 16-bit 02:30:50 Hmm, https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/das 02:30:53 but "/*" corresponds to DAS followed by the first byte of a SUB instruction 02:30:55 we can live with that 02:32:06 actually we can't, short of inline asm 02:32:14 but I guess inline asm is acceptable in a challenge like this 02:32:27 or defining main as raw machine code, I guess 02:32:37 I thought your input would be assembly in the first place. 02:32:43 oh, I was thinking C 02:32:50 if very system-specific C 02:33:35 ; is CMP 02:35:02 aww, I have a 16-bit compiler on this system but it seems to be missing the appropriate libraries to compile to DOS .com 02:35:22 I guess the next question is "why do I have a 16-bit C compiler on this system" but I assume there was a reason at the time 02:36:01 it takes K&R C as input; again I'm not entirely sure why 02:36:08 but in my test program I had to correct "int main(void)" to "int main()" 02:36:27 `asm cmp eax, [rax] 02:36:28 0: 3b 00 cmp eax,DWORD PTR [rax] 02:36:33 `cat ../bin/asm 02:36:33 ​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" > /tmp/asm.s; for o in ',' '-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg,-M intel'; do if as ${o%,*} /tmp/asm.s -o /tmp/asm.o 2>>/tmp/asm.err; then objdump ${o#*,} -d --insn-width=20 /tmp/asm.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d" | perl -pe 'if (/^\s*(\w+:)\s*((?:\w\w )+)\s*(\S.*)$/) { ($a,$b,$c) = ($1,$2,$3); $_ = "$a $b ".($c =~ s/\s+/ /rg)."\n"; }'; exit; fi; done; cat /tmp/asm.err 02:37:03 shachaf: you want most of the machine code program to be inside a string literal or comment from the point of view of the asm, and most of the asm to be goto'd over from the machine code program 02:37:17 Yes. 02:37:29 I was thinking of ; comments in an assembler. 02:37:52 It's easy enough if your language allows unprintable characters in comments, which I was thinking it wouldn't for some reason. 02:39:55 that depends on the lexer more than anything else 02:40:07 many languages even allow unprintables in string literals 02:43:42 [[Redivider]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70973&oldid=25372 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link 02:48:29 There is different assembly language for different computer and also different assembly language for the same computer too. 03:00:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 03:00:37 [[Revomer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70974&oldid=20094 * LegionMammal978 * (+50) /* External resources */ fixed links 03:01:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 03:11:49 Not sure I understand the .zip header thing. Can I have another format's magic at the end still? 03:12:10 WorldsPlayer .world files always begin with PERSISTER Worlds, Inc. 03:12:16 and end with END PERSISTER 03:14:27 Sgeo__: I don't know about ZIP. What I do know though is that you can append a ZIP archive to another file. 03:18:55 Turns out WorldsPlayer doesn't actually read past END PERSISTER. Thank you zzo38 03:21:46 [[Rflct]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70975&oldid=37107 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 03:22:03 It didn't work 03:22:56 zzo38, you're saying this should result in a valid zip? cat WorldsPlayer-956.world WorldsPlayer-956.zip > WorldsPlayer-9567.zip 03:24:07 Yes, although it is possible that some programs might not recognize it. It also might not work if the code that identifies the beginning of a ZIP file is found somewhere inside the WorldsPlayer file (it is "PK\x03\x04") 03:26:09 That's not the case here, so why isn't it opening 03:26:49 Oh maybe because what you said 03:27:28 Another possibility might be that the index at the end of the file requires absolute offsets, although I don't know whether or not that is the case. 03:28:16 But I don't think so; I seem to remember I have once concatenated a PNG and ZIP together and was able to open it with either a PNG or ZIP program just fine. 03:31:23 Not sure I understand the .zip header thing. Can I have another format's magic at the end still? ← yes, the last field of the .zip header (which goes at the end of the file) is "comment", which gives you room to stick another magic number in there 03:31:58 also, the .zip file header references other parts of the file relative to the /start/ of the file, so a pure concatenation won't work 03:32:10 ...how did unzip work? 03:32:18 you can append to a .zip file without rewriting the first part of the file, but that requires small changes to the second part 03:32:34 Maybe I misremembered; I don't know 03:32:38 Sgeo__: as far as I can tell from the specification, the format is ambiguous; you can write one file that's valid as a zip file in two different ways 03:32:45 so presumably unzip has to pick one arbitrarily 03:32:46 [[Rogex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70976&oldid=70840 * LegionMammal978 * (-181) /* Interpreter */ fixed code block 03:33:23 O, maybe different implementations work differently. That is also who I was unable to unzip a PDF/ZIP combination file with one program but another program worked, I suppose. 03:35:42 warning [WorldsPlayer-9567.zip]: 2438 extra bytes at beginning or within zipfile 03:35:42 (attempting to process anyway) 03:48:59 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 03:59:17 [[Cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70977&oldid=66898 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+31) 04:21:40 -!- MDude has joined. 04:35:32 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:36:16 [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70978&oldid=65919 * CatIsFluffy * (-7) This is a little embarrassing (up to 11 verified optimal under 1000 steps and 4998 stack characters 04:46:16 [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70979&oldid=70978 * CatIsFluffy * (-14) Trivial improvements 04:46:50 [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70980&oldid=70979 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) I swear this is the last one of this round 04:47:28 -!- Cale has joined. 04:56:38 -!- hashtar has joined. 04:56:45 well ma friendz 04:57:03 does anyone have a knowledge about angels pls help me! 04:58:42 aaaaa neeed knowledge about two specific angels 04:58:55 and a voice in my head a man/woman voice speaking to me from depth 04:58:57 what is it? 04:59:58 step two forward and three left and own down to the right 05:00:01 where are you? 05:00:19 thats called the flash of lights 05:00:25 into the pit 05:01:30 [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70981&oldid=70980 * CatIsFluffy * (-1) Sorry 05:01:48 [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70982&oldid=70981 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) Not this again 05:05:05 `? esoteric 05:05:10 This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet. 05:07:10 [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70983&oldid=70982 * Ais523 * (+37) cat; the category is arguably misnamed but it's our usual category for things like this 05:34:39 I don't have knowledge about angels, and I doubt many people here do, nor do I understand what you are talking about. 05:35:10 (You could try EFnet or DALnet, like the message from HackEso says, I suppose. Maybe they know, and if they don't know either, then I don't know who to ask; sorry.) 05:36:31 Is anyone think something about my idea I mentioned about the Magic: the Gathering? I thought to call it "fission", so, it is a fission card. 05:42:40 ok 05:42:43 thanks for your help 05:48:43 -!- Maitor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:51:04 -!- Maitor has joined. 05:54:20 -!- mniip has joined. 07:04:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:08:01 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:14:03 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:14:23 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:18:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:48:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:07:17 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:09:14 "Welcome to the international hatchery for [...] egg-plants"? 08:09:26 what's wrong with eggplants 08:09:59 -!- hashtar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:17:22 -!- hashtar has joined. 08:43:31 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70984&oldid=70783 * Palaiologos * (-843) Major cleanup 09:23:36 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:26:46 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:35:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:40:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:40:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:42:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:44:05 -!- kapilavashtu has joined. 09:56:55 [[User:GDavid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70985&oldid=57391 * GDavid * (+15) Stopwatch 10:04:07 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70986&oldid=70578 * GDavid * (+17) /* Based on dimensions */ 10:28:50 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:35:04 hi what did I miss^W^W^W^W 11:07:43 ais523: but the slash doesn't have to be the first byte of the instruction 11:25:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:31:39 Spam subject line of the day: "Re: Best human hair" 11:34:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:34:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 11:34:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:46:23 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:09:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 12:10:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Guest48241. 12:43:09 -!- hashtar has quit. 13:02:01 [[Ser2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70987&oldid=52441 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 13:41:39 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:57:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:01:14 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:10:01 -!- joast has joined. 14:16:59 -!- imode has joined. 14:32:26 int-e: i don't understand the step from line 108 to 109 in latest BB.txt 14:32:56 (i pushed some commits) 14:52:27 [[Slistp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70988&oldid=20914 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 14:54:49 Sgeo__: this yes, some files can contain fixed strings that help users identify the type of file, but aren't actually read by the reader, so they're optional. 14:55:33 eg. many of my perl or python scripts start with a shebang line that is not really used for anything but helpful as a programmer 14:55:45 #!perl or #!python3 15:01:26 aren't shebangs supposed to be absolute paths? 15:01:49 which is why you are seeing /bin/env python or the like 15:02:01 myname: if you want to execute the script directly then yes 15:02:08 but I don't do that, I execute them with perl or python3 15:02:21 perl still reads command-line options from there 15:02:34 and python has a py wrapper that reads the version number (python2 vs python3) and a bit more 15:02:41 but I don't really use those features 15:02:50 these are just mostly for convenience as a human 15:03:10 also the .pl extension is terribly ambiguous 15:03:27 at one point I wondered if we should just use .pm as the extension of all perl scripts 15:06:43 @pl \x y -> y x 15:06:43 flip id 15:06:59 together with Perl and Prolog that's at least three meanings of pl 15:07:15 that too, yes 15:07:21 also I think there are circumstances under which shebangs work without the / 15:07:31 but it probably depends a lot on the shell and OS 15:07:50 there are some UNIXes which treat the magic number for an executable as "#! /" (four bytes) 15:07:58 which is why I typically put a space in my shebangs 15:08:07 even though I think that's an obsolete way of doing it 15:08:07 I didn't know that 15:08:14 I never put a space 15:08:43 I just like shebang as a human-readable way to declare the type of a file, even to people not familiar with that file format 15:09:06 obviously there are many formats where it doesn't work because they have a magic number at the start 15:09:25 but file formats could be designed such that the magic number isn't at the start, so you can put a short comment at the start 15:10:18 especially esoteric file formats 15:10:19 It has been claimed that some old versions of Unix expect the normal shebang to be followed by a space and a slash (#! /), but this appears to be untrue;[citation needed] 15:10:20 OK, that makes things even more interesting 15:10:21 especially the {{cn}} 15:10:51 [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70989&oldid=62150 * LegionMammal978 * (-571) rewrapped code blocks 15:12:25 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:12:46 in a work-in-progress version of Underlambda I put a shebang /in/ the magic number 15:12:46 but it was controversial 15:12:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:12:55 ais523: does linux even allow a space between the shebang and the interpreter filename, for the purpose of plain execve? 15:13:27 oh also, it can be worth to design a file format such that it at least ignores a shebang line 15:13:55 modern shell scripts already have that property, as well as perl and python scripts 15:14:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:14:09 b_jonas: I believe it does 15:14:32 one of the larger reasons for # comments is so that they're shebang-compatible 15:14:35 tromp: how are you defining busy beaver in BB.txt? 15:14:44 and there are some languages that don't have # comments, but ignore the first line if it starts with #! 15:15:02 ais523: no, I think that's backwards, the shebang magic bytes were chosen because they're compatible with shell script comments 15:16:00 b_jonas: can't both be true? 15:16:16 kritixilithos: see https://mathoverflow.net/questions/353514/whats-the-smallest-lambda-calculus-term-not-known-to-have-a-normal-form 15:16:20 new language uses # comments, to be compatible with other tooling that assumes # comments 15:18:15 ais523: probably, for some new languages 15:18:47 also it's a pity that C preprocessors don't ignore the #! line, not even if you use a double slash at the start of the path 15:19:13 so there's probably no way to start a C source file with a shebang 15:23:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:24:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:24:25 not until someone adds an extension to the C preprocessor where #! is a null directive 15:33:35 tromp: i see, thanks 15:33:51 `? blind alley 15:33:53 blind alley? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:50:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:59:22 #! just gives me an warning 15:59:50 hmm 16:00:36 Oh, right, that's because I'm using tcc 16:00:51 lol I forgot that my "cc" command is tcc 16:01:07 gcc throws an error 16:01:52 ah 16:02:25 tcc supports shebang lines so you can have executable C "scripts" 16:02:27 also, you invoke cc ? I always invoke gcc or g++ directly, rather than cc and c++ 16:02:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:03:58 b_jonas: based on experience with the megapolyglot, we believe the most portable way to start a program is with a "pre-preprocessed #line directive" 16:04:06 which looks like # then a number then a string 16:04:16 ais523: for a pre-processed file, sure 16:04:22 pre-processed C file 16:04:28 but then you can't use the preprocessor 16:04:35 b_jonas: most C compilers are happy to accept pre-preprocessed input and will preprocess it a second time 16:04:42 that doesn't hurt the polyglot much, but in real world C source files I want to use preprocessor directives 16:04:56 wait really? they just accept a line directive? 16:04:57 nice 16:05:01 as are, oddly, many implementations for languages other than C, even if they don't normally use the C preprocessor 16:05:03 I mean an output line directive 16:05:36 yep, just tested 16:05:57 ok 16:05:59 # 1 "hello.c" \ int main(void) { \ puts("Hello, world!"); \ } 16:06:13 compiled under gcc I get a warning for "hello.c" even though the file is named something else, about the implicit definition of puts 16:06:20 and the resulting executable works fine 16:06:24 um, that doesn't actually have a preprocessor directive like #include after the line directive 16:06:50 OK, I added a preprocessor directive, and it was honoured 16:06:54 good 16:07:08 which is not surprising, how would it know to turn the preprocessor off when it encountered the compiled-#line? 16:07:33 yeah. I just expected that the output preprocessor line would give an error in the preprocessor 16:07:45 it works in clang too: https://tio.run/#c-clang 16:07:47 err 16:07:54 https://tio.run/##S9ZNzknMS///X1nBUEEpIzUnJ18vWYlLOSU1LTMvVaG4pLRAoaC0pJgrM69EITcxM0@jLD8zRVOhmksBLKmh5AHSo6NQnl@Uk6KopGnNVcv1/z8A 16:08:22 and tcc: https://tio.run/##S9YtSU7@/19ZwVBBKSM1JydfL1mJSzklNS0zL1WhuKS0QKGgtKSYKzOvRCE3MTNPoyw/M0VToZpLASypoeQB0qOjUJ5flJOiqKRpzVXL9f8/AA 16:08:28 I've run out of C compilers to check on TIO now, though 16:10:37 anyway, for ages the polyglot started with a compiled-#line directive then /* 16:10:52 which causes a huge number of languages to temporarily suspend the parser 16:10:55 https://rextester.com can compile with MSVC :-) 16:11:17 (the filename was chosen to put lots of esolangs into a comment / string literal / large jump, too) 16:12:04 source_file.c(1): error C2019: expected preprocessor directive, found '1' 16:12:06 aww 16:12:29 I don't know what version of MSVC it runs though 16:12:32 I guess it wouldn't be the first time MSVC didn't follow a de-facto standard that nonetheless wasn't an actual standard 16:12:39 Microsoft (R) C/C++ Optimizing Compiler Version 19.00.23506 for x64 16:12:55 that's recent 16:12:55 nice 16:15:46 yeah when I compile things I use cc typically, i think because one of my first computers had gcc installed as "cc" and didn't accept a "gcc" command 16:16:00 I see 16:16:43 what's really weird is now you see people with clang installed as "gcc" 16:17:15 that's not too weird, clang is pretty closely compatible to gcc 16:18:27 but what that means is, "gcc" has become so intrenched as "the command to compile stuff" 16:18:56 cc has been forgoten, even though it's one less letter to type 16:19:12 yes, because before linux and gcc got so spread, there were computers with separate cc and gcc commands. that's why autoconf scripts try gcc first, before cc 16:19:41 also now there's c99 as a command name too 16:19:57 because of POSIX or something like that 16:20:47 oren: my first UNIXish environment had cc as provided by the OS manufacturer, it wasn't gcc 16:21:18 it also had c99 but I didn't discover that for ages, and it was presented as though it were an entirely separate program from cc (although of course they probably shared a lot of code) 16:21:43 so I still think of cc as being "the OS stock C compiler" and gcc as being a specific C compiler 16:21:54 and on Linux, assume that the two are the same, as gcc is the standard C compiler on Linux 16:22:00 (but this doesn't hold on other Unices) 16:22:29 just as glibc is also the standard on linuxes, but it might be one of the other brands of libc that imitate glibc 16:22:54 "gcc" on Mac OS X is normally actually clang, isn't it, nowadays? 16:23:18 now I'm interested in what "cc" typically is on BSD 16:23:36 may depend on which BSD 16:23:55 I was wondering about that 16:24:35 I'm surprised that BSD doesn't get more attention, actually; it's a perfectly solid OS and for most programs, it's very comparable to Linux, with easy porting both ways 16:25:32 hardware compatibility, probably 16:26:08 that sort-of makes sense, I assume it has a smaller community of driver-writers 16:26:24 I'd expect the hardware compatibility to be at least decent on older machines, though 16:28:24 I suspect that BSD doesn't get much attention because it's non-proselytizing, or however that word is called, that is, there is a small community of people who use BSD, but they aren't actively trying to convince other people to also use BSD, whereas Linux fanatics try to convince people to use Linux all the time 16:29:01 well, when programmers proselytize, they often do so by writing code to make things more user-friendly 16:29:13 -!- xkapastel has joined. 16:29:42 that's the good kind, yes 16:31:33 plus I think it's also that at least some BSD activity focuses on using BSD in servers and routers and the like 16:31:58 rather than workstations or mobile phones 16:32:20 huh, assuming you aren't on Windows: http://localhost:631 16:32:32 I kind-of hope that thing's firewalled by default 16:33:06 just look at https://www.pcbsd.org , they used to brand themselves as a FreeBSD variant useful as a desktop environment for ordinary home users, but the distribution has disappeared or got renamed, and they now target servers 16:33:20 I guess that's one way to make a semi-major part of an operating system OS-independent but it still seems really weird 16:33:22 ais523: is that the printer server? 16:33:49 I don't have anything running on that port here 16:34:12 b_jonas: yes 16:34:20 it even has Apple branding 16:34:25 despite me being on Linux 16:35:03 it seems to contain a list of everything I've ever printed, too 16:35:15 (although I hardly ever print things so it's quite short) 16:49:24 hmm, I wonder what the greatest proportion of the set of all bytestrings is, such that after all common sorts of encoding-related damage, the original string can be uniquely reconstructed 16:49:57 obviously sticking to printable ASCII survives all common forms of encoding-related damage, but I think you safely can expand this into some of the control codes and high-bit-set characters 16:50:19 (but not all of them, because you need to be able to, e.g., distinguish an unchanged source from mojibake) 16:51:27 [[Stacked Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70990&oldid=39483 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* Implementation */ fixed link 16:52:11 that may depend on what you count as encoding-related. does word-wrapping count? HTML turning whitespace sequences to single spaces? 16:52:33 old forums that output HTML from wiki-like input that change some spaces to nbsp? 16:54:47 I think all those examples count 16:54:55 so sticking to printable ASCII is not in fact enough 16:55:05 (another encoding-related issue that can happen in printable ASCII: & becoming &) 16:55:50 oh yes, that too 16:56:18 there's also the case of stray = signs from quoted-printable 16:56:28 which can affect even input that's entirely alphanumeric 16:56:39 would it count when web thingies replace anything with an @ sign in it with some javascript email address protection thing? when twitter or twitch chat replaces anything with a dot in it with a http hyperlink? 16:56:43 and ASCII/EBCDIC misinterpretation, I guess, although that isn't common nowadays 16:57:14 b_jonas: the former of those is done by Cloudflare under some circumstances, isn't it? 16:57:18 which makes it very common 16:57:23 and the latter is also frequently seen 16:57:36 I've first seen it on the FSF's mailing list archive web interface 16:57:48 (another related issue: ASCII sequences that look like emoticons being replaced with Unicode or even -tag-based smileys) 16:58:07 b_jonas: oh right, mailing list archives do that too 16:58:08 oh yeah, Mibbit 16:58:27 as well as some phpbb, and in fact twitch chat too now that I think of it 16:58:51 changing the :D to a smiley in Data::Dumper, turning :) and :-) to the same thing 17:00:12 ASCII-as-UTF-16 misinterpretation has to be pretty rare 17:00:17 there's also some wordpress-based web comment forms that turn ascii double quotes to fancy quotes 17:00:30 although didn't Notepad do that once? 17:00:50 ah yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts 17:01:01 I think that usually happens backwards, reading an utf-16 file as if it was some ascii-compatible encoding and adding nul bytes between 17:02:04 b_jonas: yes but in that case it's normally really obvious what happened 17:02:27 if you see a file that looks like ASCII but there's a NUL byte every other byte, you can typically figure out what went wrong even if you've never heard of UTF-16 17:02:39 (and some formats, like VT-100, ignore NUL, so the file will even appear to work) 17:02:40 ah, I didn't know about that one 17:02:49 (assuming it has no non-ASCII characters) 17:03:18 usually yes. not if I just try to run a grep command, get no matches, and forget that the file is utf-16 encoded 17:03:37 that happened to me a few times recently 17:04:42 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 17:06:04 `unicode U+0D0A 17:06:07 ​ഊ 17:06:19 hmm, that seems wrong 17:06:21 `unicode 0D0A 17:06:22 ​ഊ 17:06:40 `unidecode ഊ 17:06:41 ​[U+0D0A MALAYALAM LETTER UU] 17:06:49 perhaps not 17:06:58 I'm reading blog posts about the Notepad misdetection 17:07:19 and one of them mentions that the CRLF character is explicitly illegal in Unicode, presumably to make detection easier 17:07:22 I think it's just lying though? 17:07:26 `unicode 0A0D 17:07:27 ​਍ 17:07:36 oh, there's also some encoding-related garbage that you can get from perl's encoding io layer, which is somehow messed up in more than one way 17:07:42 hmm, perhaps it only detects it that way round 17:07:55 but it'd be weird to have such a detection for one endianness but not the other 17:08:22 I guess this is one argument to prefer UTF16-LE over UTF16-BE 17:08:30 in particular, on windows with a native win32 perl, when I try to write a file with layer :encoding(utf-16-le):crlf , I get garbage. no, it doesn't just output the crlf wrong, it outputs everything wrong after some point in the file. 17:08:42 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70991&oldid=70882 * Hakerh400 * (+134) /* Languages */ 17:08:47 many years ago I saw the encoding layer cause to output some lines twice. 17:08:55 b_jonas: how does that compare to :crlf:encoding(utf-16-le)? 17:09:13 I'd expect at least one of those to replace all the 0x0D bytes in the Unicode encoding with 0x0D/0x0A pairs, which would throw off the byte pairing 17:09:25 ais523: I don't recall the details, I think it's just :encoding(utf-16-le) that's buggy, because :crlf is the default 17:09:43 a workaround is to use :raw:encoding(utf-16-le) and then put crlf at the end of my lines manually 17:10:23 ais523: no, it isn't just messed up in any of those trivial ways, and the output that I tried to write is mostly ascii 17:10:40 I didn't really try to isolate the bug, I just gave up 17:10:43 and worked it around 17:10:54 and also trying to move away for perl, not only for this reason 17:11:05 heh, the blog post later discuses the MALAYALAM LETTER UU issue 17:11:20 b_jonas: what are you planning to move onto? 17:11:45 ais523: python3. I already have a csv reader and writer in python, and a lot of more specific scripts related to work. 17:12:13 eventually I should make a patched python3 that adds extra syntax so I can write python in a single line, useful for command-line or IRC 17:12:36 it can be done in a sane backwards compatible way, I already have a candidate for the syntax 17:12:47 b_jonas: I'm considering looking for alternatives to Perl, however I dislike Python and don't consider it a reasonable alternative for me 17:12:50 ideally should get that thing into vanilla python, because I'm not the only one who's missing that feature 17:13:02 but I'm not getting my hope up 17:13:33 still, it's a pure syntax extension, so the modified python would be compatible with all existing python code, which is the whole point 17:13:43 ais523: any specific reason why you dislike python 17:14:00 one advantage of python is that the standard library is more suited to native windows 17:14:30 not perfectly suited, it's still written by unix programmers, but you don't have to install CPAN modules to open files with non-ascii filenames or any of that nonsense 17:14:50 b_jonas: I think the largest design flaw is to have a language where values carry types, with strong restrictions on how types can be combined + context-sensitive overloading, /but/ no static typing 17:15:20 although Perl started to move in that direction over time with operator overloading, at least most packages keep the normal meanings of the operators 17:15:38 + and * in Python can do two unrelated things based on where the arguments come from 17:15:42 ais523: if you want static typing, there's always rust and C++, and you can mix them with python just as you can with perl 17:15:50 `! python print("2" + 3) 17:15:51 ​/hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/python: No such file or directory 17:15:56 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70992&oldid=70984 * Palaiologos * (+275) 17:16:11 `` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 t.py 17:16:12 python3: can't open file 't.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory 17:16:16 `` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/tt.py 17:16:17 python3: can't open file '/tmp/tt.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory 17:16:19 `` echo 'print("2" + 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py 17:16:20 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/t.py", line 1, in \ print("2" + 3) \ TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "int") to str 17:16:25 `` echo 'print("2" * 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py 17:16:26 222 17:16:31 `` echo 'print(2 * 3)' > /tmp/t.py; python3 /tmp/t.py 17:16:32 6 17:16:53 so there's this big distinction between "2" and 2 in how they behave, and code will only be correct for one or the other 17:17:11 ais523: I don't find that too much of a problem, but ok, that's a good specific answer 17:17:14 but there's no sensible way to have this checked automatically 17:17:29 Perl doesn't have this problem because "2" and 2 act very similarly in any numeric context 17:17:30 I understand why you'd want different names for the concat and repeat operators 17:17:36 and, indeed, in any string context 17:17:58 you can distinguish them if you really want to, but normally you don't want to 17:18:18 also this has lead to bugs in practice 17:18:27 the Python program I most often use is the Jelly interpreter 17:18:30 right, but in python, "2" and 2 never act similarly, so this generally doesn't cause confusion 17:18:38 just like in C 17:19:04 about the only time when they act similarly is if you pass them to the int or float constructor 17:19:08 and it leads to programs like the following quine: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8//9R4z4gerhjCRD9/w8A 17:19:14 which isn't even valid Jelly but the interpreter doesn't notice 17:19:41 b_jonas: the confusion is the lack of a type error when passing a value of the wrong type 17:20:07 other things I dislike are the way it does variable declarations, and the whitespace-sensitivity 17:20:56 also the package manager, but cpan the package managing software isn't all that great either (I'm fine with CPAN the repository, though, and with cpanm) 17:21:26 ais523: right, but it doesn't occur often. the + operator for add vs concatenation, the * operator for multiplication vs repeat, the str function semi-pretty-printing things, int and float converting numbers or parsing strings, plus the [] operator for arrays vs dictionaries, those are about the only cases when this happens 17:21:38 most of the time when I pass the wrong type of value, I get an error 17:21:58 the ⁾⁾ḤḤ quine exploits the second case 17:22:12 as for variable declarations and whitespace sensitivity, those complaints I do understand 17:22:16 ⁾ creates a 2-character string, and a string in Jelly is an array of characters 17:22:17 I want to fix the whitespace sensitivity 17:22:31 I probably don't want to fix variable declarations, though there could be an extension fixing that 17:22:33 so it creates the string ⁾Ḥ 17:22:40 then Ḥ doubles a number, or all numbers in an array 17:22:41 mind you, Julia's rules for variable declarations are way worse than python's IMO 17:22:47 and you can guess what happened next :-D 17:23:10 anyway, gtg 17:23:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:25:05 more likely in that crazy esolang idea that I'll probably never develop, the configurable one where you can choose between APL order and C order and even more for function calls, I'd have 2*2 options for how variable declarations and scoping work, as in 2 for explicit my and implicit nonlocal vs explicit nonlocal and implicit my, and if/while/for creating a scope vs if/while/for not creating a scope 17:26:14 and allow to toggle those lexically within a scope 17:37:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:44:19 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 17:51:16 -!- Guest48241 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:59:45 tromp: hmm, what's the issue with that step from line 108 to 109? It splits X^V' into W^V' and B^V', expands W^V'[v := X^V] as before and B^V' using the undyction hypothesis? 18:00:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:00:22 Hah, "undyction" is beautiful. 18:01:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:05:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood). 18:05:49 -!- Guest48241 has joined. 18:06:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:12:23 int-e: induction on size of term in B^V' ? 18:14:02 tromp: I'm treating B^V = H[W^V X^V] = H[W^V (W^V u B^V)] as the inductive definition of B^V. 18:14:14 tromp: But yes, induction on the size will work as well. 18:14:43 tromp: it's proper because while H may be empty, we take at least one W^V off. 18:14:47 ok, i'll add an intermediate line = H[W^V'[v := X^V] (W^V'[v := X^V] ∪ B^V'[v := X^V]) ] to make the steps clearer 18:15:50 Funny that we both added an nf[_]size command. 18:17:42 i only did so after you mentioned it (but before checking the repo) 19:10:06 so essentially if I wanted to write a JIT or AOT compiler based on my current interpreter in JAva 19:10:20 should I target java bytecode, C, x86 assembly, llvm... ? 19:10:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 19:10:59 I'm not really sure because I don't want to kill portability Java offers and overload my program with unnecessary external libraries or programs 19:11:09 Homestuck music update! 19:11:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Guest51731. 19:11:30 I don't know, there are advantages and disadvantages in each case. 19:12:39 -!- Guest48241 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:13:01 that's what I think 19:13:08 so I can't make a decision really 19:13:16 I think I may go with Java bytecode 19:13:19 where are you intending to run this. 19:13:30 and is this like a brainfuck interpreter? 19:13:31 but then I'll have to clog my program with BCEL 19:13:54 imode, said that already, I want it as portable as possible; and this is a brainfuck interpreter now, but I can eaisly transform it into a compiler 19:15:15 C code may be more portable, or a simple code using an emulation 19:15:32 you haven't said it in my logs, so I don't think asking is out of the question. 19:15:46 kspalaiologos: if you're writing in Java, then Java bytecode may be a good target format, as the Java runtime will JIT that once you generate it 19:15:47 if you want portability, yeah, you can hardly beat Java. 19:15:55 so you basically have a platform-independent JIT 19:16:12 if you want _actual_ portability, compile it to C. every platform has a C compiler at some point. 19:16:18 well then 19:16:23 at work I use a library called ASM (confusingly) to generate Java bytecode at runtime 19:16:31 C is a good target language if you want AOT rather than JIT 19:16:33 I'll go with BCEL instaed 19:16:42 what about performance 19:16:45 and optimization 19:17:08 C compiler optimizers are pretty good nowadays, although I can normally beat them programming by hand 19:17:23 C may be orders of magnitude more performant than Java 19:17:28 although, the workings of modern computers are confusing, and optimizing for speed is really counterintuitive sometimes 19:17:39 depends on your knowledge on the platforms 19:17:46 cache lines, instruction alignment 19:17:54 it all becomes logical at certain point 19:18:03 out-of-order execution has a much larger impact than instruction alignment 19:18:11 yeah this too 19:18:20 and it interacts with caching in weird ways 19:19:34 yeah, I'm going with java 19:19:41 a while ago, to test out my optimization skills, I decided to aim for the following challenge: given a simple (inlinable) function that generates a continuous stream of bytes in a way that doesn't take up much of the CPU's time 19:19:47 write the resulting bytes to memory as quickly as possible 19:19:53 ha, C, Java. I plan to compile something into Python (as for programs written in it it’s pretty logical; there’s a module to work with its own AST and a function for compiling it) 19:19:54 I thikn computers should be designed less confusing 19:20:21 it took a lot of attempts and experimentation to find an optimal (or as optimal as I could get it) solution, but I beat the C compilers fairly quickly 19:20:22 python doesn't seem like a good target 19:20:37 C is hard to optimize by the compiler 19:20:42 you can't even reassociate math 19:20:47 You could also allow it to support multiple targets 19:20:49 without changing behaviour of some snippets 19:21:03 zzo38, not today, that's too much effort :P, I'll maybe support C later on 19:21:10 (for people who are wondering, take a couple of 128-bit registers, store intermediate results there, and then write them using nontemporal writes; this is fastest even though GPR→vector register copies are documented as slow) 19:21:32 (oddly, this was fastest even though the CPU had 256-bit registers available) 19:21:54 it's always cheering to see a fellow assembly programmer 19:21:55 python doesn't seem like a good target => for production code, I more or less agree, but for quick proof-of-concept things why not 19:22:11 ^ yeah, for a proof of concept python is sufficient 19:22:33 assembly programmers are magicians 19:22:56 Malbolge programmers are true magicians 19:23:08 as any true magician, an assembly master is a rare sight 19:23:09 I don't write in asm much, but I think it's an important language to know, especially when trying to work out how to write the quickest possible code 19:23:26 seducers, thiefs, simonists 19:23:29 I consider asm to be a fairly easy language to write (if you aren't aiming for performance), incidentally, it's just really time-consuming 19:23:44 that's true 19:24:01 Malbolge programmers are true magicians => hmhm maybe they are abstract theoretical magicians then, and assembly ones, practicing ones ;D 19:24:01 writing my Assembly implementation for the Seed generator has been a quite long process 19:24:08 [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70993&oldid=70947 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* Examples */ 19:24:15 in fact, it took around 2 days to get it up and running 19:24:20 did you check the code btw? 19:24:26 I'm always up for some optimization tips 19:25:05 I looked at it but didn't really read it 19:25:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 19:27:28 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70994&oldid=70146 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) Removed redirect to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] 19:29:24 though in view of wanting to call myself a bit of a magician too I need to postulate Haskell-or-other programmers should be magicians too, just of a school almost incompatible in its workings to an assembly ones. It’s even plain to see: an assembly magician assembles (with others) and a haskell one, well, “has call”, which might mean that they can talk to one another at a distance, which is quite a good trait these times. I’ll s 19:29:24 how myself out 19:30:22 There are different assembly language for different computers and VMs, so you might know one way better than other one. 19:30:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 19:32:43 I have used the assembly language of 6502, MIX, MMIX, Glulx, Z-machine, and maybe a few others 19:33:28 If you want to write a text adventure game, you may want to learn Glulx or Z-machine programming; there are some tricks I have figured out 19:37:30 -!- MDude has joined. 19:38:21 Infocom put in some features in Z-machine that they then didn't use. And then, there are many other tricks they didn't consider, such as the SET->BCOM optimization, etc. So, if you write programs for Z-machine, then you can learn this, please. 19:42:54 [[Tttt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70995&oldid=67806 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-19) /* the symbols */ Fixing your ordered list so it is legible 19:55:44 [[Elevated Parser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=70996 * Hakerh400 * (+8045) +[[Elevated Parser]] 19:55:47 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70997&oldid=70961 * Hakerh400 * (+22) +[[Elevated Parser]] 19:55:50 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70998&oldid=70991 * Hakerh400 * (+38) +[[Elevated Parser]] 19:58:38 ais523: Which instruction set and what CPU were you writing the program you mentioned is fastest? 19:58:52 [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=70999&oldid=70996 * Hakerh400 * (+11) /* Processing abstract syntax tree */ 20:01:10 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:01:35 [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71000&oldid=70999 * Hakerh400 * (-1) 20:03:29 [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71001&oldid=71000 * Hakerh400 * (+2) 20:04:19 [[Elevated Parser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71002&oldid=71001 * Hakerh400 * (+0) 20:08:46 Hrm. "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" 20:08:56 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:09:05 I clicked "Cancel" rather than "Ok" and then wondered why nothing happened. 20:11:14 That isn't very good, they should write (Y/N) instead 20:12:49 you cancelled the cancelling 20:13:24 i agree with zzo38, that isn't very good 20:14:42 (This is github btw, when cancelling editing of a comment.) 20:15:12 (But are those labels provided by the JS code or by the browser, hmm.) 20:15:34 aww @xkcd 20:16:56 can a cell cancel 20:18:19 If it is in the browser and is provided by a JavaScript prompt() function, then that isn't a problem, since they just have to make the expectation (although maybe they should put labels true/false). If it is a confirmation the browser puts by itself, perhaps due to an altered but not yet submitted form (this would be a better way, subject to user configuration), then it should use better writing. 20:21:55 yeah, this xkcd is poetic. A glider ensouled takes into the sky and expands the boundaries of life 20:23:25 though maybe it doesn’t quite reach the surreal, and that’s a pity 20:29:54 it's pretty good 20:30:52 arseniiv: what do you want, the glider breaking out of the frame and psychedelic rainbow colors when the glider hits the edge of the browser window? 20:31:34 (the former would be kind of cute, but hard to do with just an animated gif :) ) 20:32:22 int-e: hmmm the idea is nice but I don’t know if it would be linked to surreal numbers by many 20:34:09 i kind of thought it would break out of the frame 20:35:34 I was wrong, this isn't actually happening on github (which phrases the message differently); it's just its sibling, gist. 20:38:19 Huh. Can't reproduce? Maybe my brain read something that wasn't there. In that case... let me get back on the project of detonating the Sun to erase all evidence of this ever happening. 20:41:25 -!- shachaf has left. 20:42:55 `? int-e 20:42:56 int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. 20:43:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:43:20 I'm not sure if I should continue reading the HTML spec, it just continues to get weirder and weirder 20:43:22 hm yes I still haven’t learned this language 20:43:48 for example, it uses the three-word phrase "will declaratively refresh" as though it were a single-word noun 20:44:06 e.g. "If document's will declaratively refresh is true, then return." 20:44:21 arseniiv: Yes, it is mentioned in there. 20:44:55 which, given that most of the document is written in pseudocode, I'm not even sure I can argue that this is wrong because variable names can be anything without changing the meaning 20:45:17 but you'd have thought that reasonable programs would try to use something less unwieldy 20:46:54 int-e: (could you maybe try the Moon first? If it’ll be sufficient then at least someone will still have the Sun) 20:48:30 arseniiv: No, the whole point of this endeavour is to be thorough. 20:48:51 arseniiv: Unfortunately, I don't even know where to begin. ;) 20:49:01 int-e: but the Sun may be not enough 20:49:20 arseniiv: True, true. 20:49:34 arseniiv: However you should make up your mind about what you want. 20:50:03 Hrm. "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" ← I'm having problems working out a good interface for that, especially because by the normal interface guidelines, /both/ buttons should say "Cancel" 20:50:14 (this is assuming that there's no easy way to undo the cancel once it's started) 20:50:24 (otherwise, you just cancel and have an "undo cancel" button, which is 100% clear) 20:50:31 ah, so I need to distract you with blowing up Sagittarius A* after all 20:50:42 int-e: ^ 20:51:17 that might be a fun question for the user interface design stack exchange 20:51:31 I think nowadays my main usage of stack exchange is asking ridiculously hard questions that I don't expect there to be a good answer to 20:51:37 I think (Y/N) is best, but that is not applicable to HTML. I suggested displaying true/false if the confirm() function is used. 20:51:45 Since, those are the return values of the confirm() function. 20:51:53 (nothing is lost if I'm right, but something amazing often happens when I'm wrong, so the overall expectation is very positive) 20:52:09 I'm really miffed about not being able to reproduce it, and not knowing whether it's a corner case or something I just imagined. 20:52:48 Not enough to go diving into github's code, but it's kind of a close call. 20:54:31 int-e: I tried to cancel editing my own comment now at my gist, and it asks “Are you sure you want to discard your unsaved changes?” with OK and Cancel (translated) buttons 20:54:53 is it what you think you have seen? 20:56:28 ah, btw the browser is Firefox and the dialog is seemingly by Firefox, so it should be a standard JS function being used, yep 20:57:19 arseniiv: That is what I'm seeing when I try to reproduce the problem :P 20:57:38 ah sorry 20:57:44 arseniiv: But it's not what I thought I saw. 20:58:01 arseniiv: Don't worry. It's nice to get *something* right. :P 20:58:15 though at least what you see instead is more reproducible that it was known prior 20:59:17 int-e: *something* right => then not the Sun, Sagittarius A* 21:03:08 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71003&oldid=70994 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+859) 21:04:29 arseniiv: Nah, I also try to keep my goals realistic. If I'm to shoot at stars, I'll start with the Sun. 21:05:05 still, I have some time to dissuade you 21:05:44 Perhaps so, but all you're accomplishing is to strengthen my resolve. 21:09:04 int-e: hmm it came to my mind if I blow up Sgt A* first (and in the right way), you woudn’t get a chance with the Sun… hm 21:10:08 though this is a goal no less distant to me too, so I’m just musing alound 21:10:58 though no, I should pick Betelgeuse 21:11:18 are there any natural languages where the natural translations of "yes" and "no" start with the same letter? 21:30:12 A table on the Internet says that in the Bambara language (which is "mostly written in the Latin script") those are Awɔ and Ayi respectively. But another dictionary page writes the yes as "ɔwɔ", and there is an uppercase Ɔ as well, so maybe not. It does seem to be a different vowel, at least. 21:34:18 The Hawaiian ʻae (yes) and ʻaʻole (no) might count. (I don't know any of these languages, just guessing.) 21:40:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:42:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:43:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:49:45 The user interface guidelines are perhaps no good then. What is done in vi is better, you must type :q! if you want to discard your changes, if you type :q and there are unsaved changes, it tell you that you must type :q! instead if you want to discard the unsaved changes or :w to save changes, or :wq to save and quit. 22:03:16 -!- joast has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:25:15 zzo38: that's a good solution for a command-line interface 22:26:09 hmm, the best dialog button names I can think of for this are "Confirm cancel" and "Continue, don't cancel" 22:27:42 Perhaps "discard" and "continue editing" (and possibly also "save changes") 22:30:18 zzo38: if it's just for an editor, then yes, that's the standard 22:32:16 Yes. For other things, there is other stuff. Such as, if an operating is processing and then will be completed by itself in time, to put: Copying interrupted. Push space to resume copying or ^C to cancel copying. 22:48:08 Maybe the overspill for reconnaissance should be you can look at the top card of any player's regular pile. 22:50:25 (You cannot look at the card underneath the top card even if you have more than one reconnaissance, but if you have two reconnaissances then you can look at both your own and your opponent's card.) 23:00:49 -!- Guest51731 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:20:39 -!- joast has joined. 23:58:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 2020-04-14: 00:21:40 [[Systemf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71004&oldid=52502 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) fixed title 01:01:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: No route to host). 01:02:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 01:08:58 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 01:11:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:25:15 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:25:18 [[Tbf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71005&oldid=40952 * LegionMammal978 * (+5) fixed title 01:27:48 [[Tbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71006&oldid=71005 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link 01:48:23 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:48:48 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:52:24 [[ThETA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71007&oldid=16258 * LegionMammal978 * (+31) fixed title 01:53:45 [[ThaM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71008&oldid=30198 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link 01:54:19 [[ThaM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71009&oldid=71008 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed other link 02:03:42 Do you like Sean Uy's puzzles? 02:07:03 [[Thotpatrol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71010&oldid=51367 * LegionMammal978 * (+15) fixed title 02:47:01 [[TinyBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71011&oldid=50225 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 03:07:00 -!- Maitor has left. 03:30:17 Is someone on today? 03:31:05 * pikhq is, actually 03:32:52 Is there a option in Firefox and/or other web browsers that cookies can be disabled except for redirects? 03:33:07 I have not seen such an option, no 03:34:06 What do you think of my idea of "fission" ability for Magic: the Gathering cards? 03:35:39 I must say, I missed your discussion of it, so I can't say 03:36:13 * pikhq should maybe get back into Magic after this is all over... 03:36:49 Starts at UNIX timestamp 1586738893. 03:37:33 Even if you are alone, you can still compose and/or solve puzzles of Magic: the Gathering, which is something I like to do. 03:38:15 My wife knows how to play, but I'm more into it than her, and she's been preoccupied with Final Fantasy 7 lately 03:38:44 otoh could do internet stuff 03:38:47 Do you like puzzles of Magic: the Gathering? 03:38:58 I have never really gotten into 'em 03:39:16 For me a decent chunk of the appeal of Magic _is_ the fact you're playing with other people 03:39:47 Like, yes, the game itself is appealing, but I also enjoy the social nature of it 03:40:01 There are some free open source implementations of Magic: the Gathering; one I looked at (but never used; I only looked at the code) is Xmage, which does not implement text changing effects. 03:40:14 Yeah, I've used some in the past 03:41:25 I thought to implement a RDF-based format which can implement many features of Magic: the Gathering much better. So, that is my suggestion to someone who is implementing Magic: the Gathering. 03:42:37 * pikhq wonders if she should rope her girlfriend into learning Magic :P 03:42:56 Probably not, unless she waaaants to... 03:43:45 You could ask if you want to, I suppose. 03:44:10 * pikhq nods 03:44:53 Chess (and many chess variants, too) can also easily be played by computer without specialized software, using IRC or a direct connection or whatever (or even by telephone, too, actually) 03:45:24 Card games is more difficult to do by computer without the specialized software, but chess game can be done easily. 03:45:31 Yeah, I mean, chess is trivial to do remotely. 03:45:43 Correspondence chess has been a Thing for ages, after all 03:46:56 Yes, it must have been. I don't know how old it is exactly, but I think it was even done by telegrams in the past 03:47:24 pikhq: I've basically given up on Magic as a game to play, as opposed to a game to theorize about 03:47:41 I've disliked the direction it's been going in for quite a while 03:47:53 I've only played Magic in kitchen table formats, thankfully 03:47:58 Dod you read my "fission" ideas about making a card that becomes two objects in the battlefield but only one outside (like the reverse of meld)? 03:48:50 ais523: I don't like many of the features of the rules either (or some of the card designs), but in some cases I have thought of how to make a variant rules, trying to make it close to the official rules though 03:51:38 the basic problem is that Wizards are trying to make too many products for too many audiences, and are being pulled in too many directions and the quality has gone way down 03:52:10 Although some of these rules aren't so new, and some of them they have fixed (for example, I didn't like the planeswalker redirection rule and I am glad they removed it), but one rule I dislike is names for tokens, which seems mathematically klugy to me in the way the spelling works. Subtypes should be a separate namespace from names and shouldn't interact in this way (with the possible exception of conventional basic lands). 03:52:13 actually, something similar to this is why I gave up on Pokémon (the video game, not the card game, and not the video game /of/ the card game) 03:52:52 hmm, would "a land token named Island" tap for blue? my guess is no (but "an Island land token" would) 03:53:01 * pikhq shrugs 03:53:07 ais523: I agree with you about the land tokens. 03:53:18 tbh my time is nevertheless likely to be occupied 03:53:39 Since, "a land token named Island" still doesn't have the subtype Island, so it doesn't implicitly have "{T}: Add {U}". 03:53:57 anyway, the M:tG Busy Beaver people are apparently trying to figure out a way to create an Ackermann-like function only it has the busy beaver function rather than an increment 03:54:14 zzo38: right, I was just wondering whether there was a special rule for things named Island, or whether that only applies to cards 03:54:31 like, a card named Island implicitly has the Island subtype 03:54:38 if it's printed that way 03:54:44 due to how Oracle text works 03:55:02 but I guess that doesn't affect tokens that were created with the same name as a card due to Artificial Evolution 03:55:09 or even naturally 03:55:30 (IIRC think "Splinter" is both a card name, and a name of a token that can be created without text-changing effects) 03:55:41 ais523: O, yes, that is a rule of Oracle text for conventional basic lands. And, yes, it won't affect tokens of course, or even cards, just, I should think it should mean, as far as the game is concerned, a card printed with a given name has the text specified by the Oracle text as its initial text. 03:56:27 The exception I mentioned for conventional basic lands doesn't mean that names are subtypes, only that the name of "an Island land token" would compare as equal to the name of a card named "Island", but this isn't the case for creature tokens that are not explicitly given names (if they are explicitly given names, then they do compare equal to card names that are spelled the same way in English). 03:57:03 I think removing special cases would be helpful 03:57:07 `card-by-name Spreading Seas 03:57:08 Spreading Seas \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Spreading Seas enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land is an Island. \ ZEN-C 03:57:48 That changes the subtype, not the name. It wouldn't change under the rules I mention. 03:57:49 my preferred templating for the second ability would be «Enchanted land is an Island with "{T}: Add {U}" and no other subtypes or abilities.» 03:58:17 as it is, there's a special rule that changing the subtype of a land removes all its abilities, and there's a special rule on the Island subtype to add the ability to tap for {U} 03:59:07 Yes, those are special cases. The special rule about changing the subtype of a land removing all abilities I agree is a bit klugy, but the rule that those subtypes implicitly cause it to have those abilities is I think probably important to keep how it is. 03:59:26 the implicit rule for the Wall subtype got removed 03:59:54 Yes, and that is good that they removed the rule for Wall. 04:00:00 Yeah, that got swapped over to being an explicit ability, and thank goodness 04:00:07 I don't like that sort of hidden magic in game design 04:01:03 (Also, I mentioned "possible exception"; maybe my new rule should not have the exception for names of conventional basic lands. I am not sure. Either way, it won't affect non-conventional basic lands.) 04:01:19 I do like design guidelines like "black creatures are hard to destroy" but those don't have to be part of the game rules 04:01:35 * pikhq nods 04:02:03 That's the sort of thing you don't have to explain to people to learn the game, but will _inevitably_ pick up if they play enough 04:02:22 that's one thing that the Pokémon video games do well, the power of something can be in how other things interact with it rather than in its own rules 04:05:07 although it can lead to things getting a little broken sometimes when the delicate chain of interactions breaks down 04:05:18 e.g. see https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-mark-ii-roa-edition.3468567/page-53#post-8317201 and the answer two posts below (I'm callforjudgement) 04:05:21 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement. 04:05:23 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 04:05:36 Yeah... 04:07:08 the funny thing is that Arena Trap started off as a safety valve against one strategy, and ended up, many years later, making another strategy too strong by countering its counters 04:07:33 There are some unofficial implementations of Pokemon battles too, with different generations. 04:08:08 What does the Arena Trap ability do? 04:08:51 it prevents grounded opponents from switching out as long as the Arena Trap user is in battle, without the help of an item that ungrounds them (Air Balloon) or that allows them to ignore trapping effects (Shed Shell) 04:09:02 OK 04:09:41 but all its users are very defensively vulnerable in order to compensate for the fairly good ability 04:10:04 so normally there's not much point in trapping the opponent with it because they just KO you and regain the ability to switch out that way 04:12:40 OK 04:12:49 oh, I think the Run Away ability might also allow you to ignore trapping effects, not sure though, they keep changing what abilities do and most of the changes have been really good ideas, but it makes the rules hard to remember sometimes 04:13:30 Well, just you should agree which generation you are playing, and then, you should use the rules for that generation, I should think. (With any alterations for the specific match, if any, I suppose.) 04:14:05 zzo38: I agree; it's just that there are eight generations now and trying to remember the rules for each of them is complicated 04:14:42 there was a really major rules change in generation 8 (the turn order isn't locked in at the start of the turn, rather it's recalculated for every Pokémon that hasn't moved yet after each move) which I dislike 04:14:55 and which keeps catching me out in generation 8 battles 04:15:44 Yes, I suppose it is difficult like you said. 04:16:34 I thought turn order was based on speed? If that is how it work then I should think the result is same either way? Does it do another way? 04:17:10 zzo38: yes, based on speed 04:17:27 but say there are four Pokémon on the battlefield and their speeds are in the order A, B, C, D 04:17:44 now if Pokémon A uses a move to make Pokémon D faster, it could go next if its speed is increased to now be faster than B's 04:18:49 whereas under the old rules, Pokémon B and C would move next, then Pokémon D, but the turn afterwards Pokémon D would move sooner 04:19:09 O, OK. Now I know what you mean. 04:21:23 the drawback of speed-boosting moves used to be that they did nothing on the turn you used them, and they were balanced accordingly, but now (except in battles with only two Pokémon) there is very little counterplay to them, other than by building a team which would naturally go at the end of the turn order anyway (making the moves redundant) 04:21:35 so it's made battles much more matchup-dependent than they used to be 04:22:12 and means that many battles end up being decided by guesses made in the Team Preview phase 04:23:33 OK 04:25:24 (generation 8 also invented Max Airstream, which is probably the most broken move ever in Pokémon, and is speed-boosting, although oddly it's somehow even more broken in singles, where the changes to turn order calculation have no effect) 04:26:26 hmm, we could do with a Pokémon video games version of `card-by-name, I guess, but probably these conversations don't come up often enough for it to be worth the programming effort 04:27:49 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71012&oldid=70793 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+32) 04:28:06 I have thought of a system for custom Pokemon battles, involving various rule customization and time controls customization (the time controls is more general and can be applied to many different games). 04:28:45 there are simulators that understand a lot of custom rules already 04:28:50 although your rules might not be included 04:30:13 I mentioned to someone about text-based pokemon battle game (that you can connect using telnet or SSH), but they mentioned it is good except Spinda. But, once I looked it up, I can see how it is working, so, I think the solution is that if your pokemon is Spinda, then your opponent is allowed to see all values derived from the personality value (or encryption constant in gen VI). 04:31:50 (If you specify rules that data of opponent's pokemons is visible anyways, then of course it is irrelevant.) 04:32:59 -!- diginet_ has joined. 04:33:59 I think at some point Spinda's personality value stopped being visible from its graphics, I forget which generation though 04:34:04 -!- ornxka_ has joined. 04:34:18 in practice, I don't think I've seen anyone reverse-calculate Spinda's personality value in a competitive battle anyway 04:34:36 (it's normally only done to peek at the state of the random number generator) 04:35:20 -!- jix_ has joined. 04:35:25 -!- kmc_ has joined. 04:35:40 -!- int-e_ has joined. 04:35:43 -!- izabera_ has joined. 04:37:33 I forget which generation they added chess clocks, although I remember once my brother told me. Of course, in a unofficial program, it could allow the rules to customize time controls independently of the generation. 04:38:23 zzo38: 5, I believe, although it doesn't work quite the same way as regular chess clocks 04:38:39 there are actually /three/ clocks, one of which runs permanently (even when it's neither player's turn) and causes a draw if it runs out 04:39:09 and an additional clock which limits how much time you have for each individual move, so that's a fourth clock 04:39:14 if it runs out your turn is decided at random 04:40:06 Ah, OK 04:40:19 -!- ornxka has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- diginet has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- gitlogger has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- paul2520 has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- izabera has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:19 -!- kmc has quit (*.net *.split). 04:40:24 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 04:40:29 So the chess clock is just one of three 04:40:38 yes 04:40:45 I think the reason the system is so complex is for online tournaments 04:41:16 which needed to avoid running out of time for a round even if the players used moves with very long animations every turn (perhaps because they were colluding in an attempt to break the servers) 04:44:00 Could they disable animations? Did they have an option for that? 04:45:00 -!- kmc_ has changed nick to kmc. 04:46:31 -!- paul2520 has joined. 04:47:19 zzo38: the games have had options to disable animations since gen 1, but oddly, in competitive/link battles the animations are forced to be turned on, ignoring the option 04:52:38 OK 04:53:54 wb kmc 04:54:28 ais523: Frankly that always annoyed me 04:54:36 If I wanted animations off, it should just let me 04:55:33 Yes, I should think so too, at least if both players turn off animations, then it should be turned off. 04:56:10 (Animations should also be forced off if any kind of time controls are specified, I think.) 05:12:06 -!- watermelon3D has joined. 05:13:46 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:15:12 I also don't like the rule in Magic: the Gathering that double face cards and meld cards cannot be faced down (rules 711.10 and 712.10); it is easily enough to represent, by placing the checklist card face-down on top or by using opaque card sleeves. 05:59:17 ok 06:02:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:12:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:15:48 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:25:27 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:31:30 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:44:21 -!- Cale has joined. 06:52:25 yep, like I guessed, xkcd's comic today is a tribute to John H. Conway too 07:18:03 -!- watermelon3D has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:27:49 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e. 07:29:33 -!- int-e has changed nick to int-e_. 07:29:49 -!- int-e_ has changed nick to int-e. 07:38:08 I once dreamt that someone saved the details of a magic trick on their computer, but it saved with a .''' extension which meant that the magic trick was bad. 08:03:17 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 08:04:13 arseniiv: re "assemble vs has call" => that is the most groanworthy pun that I've read about this pandemic so far 08:04:55 int-e: re "Are you sure you want to cancel this operation? [Cancel] [Ok]" => in the 7-zip GUI, when you interrupt a compression operation, it asks the question the same way, but the answers are Yes, No, Cancel 08:06:52 int-e: "detonating the Sun to erase all evidence of this ever happening" => please merge it with a few other stars so that it's large enough to go supernova, then we'll get those sweet heavy elements as construction material for our civilization 08:11:47 ais523: "are there any natural languages where the natural translations of "yes" and "no" start with the same letter?" => try https://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/yesnomaybe.htm 08:12:08 Ah, fizzie probably looked at the same one 08:15:25 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:17:10 ais523: re Magic, then you could play Magic games in a homebrew format where the pool of cards is restricted to cards older than a certain cutoff date 08:29:21 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:35:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:39:11 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:39:11 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: killed). 08:39:38 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:39:39 -!- xavo[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:53:09 -!- wmww has joined. 08:57:42 -!- tromp has joined. 09:28:36 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:31:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:37:56 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 09:37:56 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 09:37:56 -!- xavo[m] has joined. 09:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:42:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:42:21 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:13:01 -!- MDude has joined. 10:24:04 [[TinyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71013&oldid=71011 * LegionMammal978 * (+25) /* External resources */ fixed link 10:24:40 I'm re-reading some old forum posts, and ran into a mention of the angels vs devils game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_problem , which is also due to John H. Conway 10:33:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:35:54 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:48:07 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:48:28 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 10:48:33 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Ttml]] to [[TTML]]: fix capitalization 10:48:33 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Talk:Ttml]] to [[Talk:TTML]]: fix capitalization 10:52:47 [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71018&oldid=39935 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 10:54:49 I wonder how inefficient would a mandelbrot fractal viewer be in Malbolge 11:18:13 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:19:56 -!- sprocklem has joined. 11:23:53 [[Uncomment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71019&oldid=32463 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link 11:24:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:25:21 -!- sprocklem has joined. 11:29:14 -!- ornxka_ has changed nick to ornxka. 11:48:46 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/asmbf/master/rave/src/rave/pass/ComparisonPass.java <- that's how code ends up when you pretend to write in a functional fashion lmao 11:49:33 oh no, java generics 11:49:48 oh yes, lack of builtin tuple data typ 11:49:58 and you automagically save on obfuscators 11:50:06 because after writing such code, you don't need one 12:01:45 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:03:47 -!- sprocklem has joined. 12:08:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:09:21 -!- sprocklem has joined. 12:09:57 [[Version2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71020&oldid=33857 * LegionMammal978 * (+36) /* External resources */ fixed link 12:15:46 [[Vowels]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71021&oldid=40963 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) fixed title 12:27:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:28:42 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sinjoro * New user account 12:30:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:30:58 [[Wait]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71022&oldid=30726 * LegionMammal978 * (-13) /* External resources */ 12:32:20 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71023&oldid=70879 * Sinjoro * (+141) 12:34:56 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71024&oldid=71023 * Sinjoro * (+49) 12:36:35 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:36:46 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71025&oldid=71024 * Sinjoro * (+27) 12:46:17 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:46:47 [[PureBrainz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71026 * Sinjoro * (+680) First Commit 12:47:45 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71027&oldid=71026 * Sinjoro * (+1) 12:49:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:53:45 [[Wiki]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71028&oldid=25347 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) /* External resources */ fixed link 12:54:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:56:27 int-e: do you think we can extend the X^V rule to X^V ::= W^V | B^V | ? 13:00:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:06:18 actually, that's no good. never mind 13:08:19 I noticed that \x. x^2 could be added to W, but not sure where exactly to add it 13:09:33 [[Worstscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71029&oldid=55333 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 13:19:14 [[XEec]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71030&oldid=44650 * LegionMammal978 * (+14) fixed title 13:20:32 int-e: perhaps extend W^V rule to W^V ::= V | W^V | \v. B^({v} ∪ V) ? 13:23:04 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:23:37 [[XS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71031&oldid=67243 * LegionMammal978 * (+12) /* External resources */ fixed link 13:26:38 [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71032&oldid=55597 * LegionMammal978 * (+2) fixed link 13:29:20 tromp: That would yield (\1 (\1 1)) in B, which terminates. 13:30:55 no, it would put that in W 13:31:19 oh. hmm. 13:31:23 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71033&oldid=71027 * Sinjoro * (+2699) Created the table of instructions 13:31:55 actually, the <> could be replaced by any number of nested <> (including 0) 13:33:51 so we cauld have W^V ::= V | W^V K^V | \v. B^({v} ∪ V) and add a rule K^V = K W^V | 13:34:32 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 13:35:35 -!- kapilavashtu has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:36:00 [[Ybc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71034&oldid=51853 * LegionMammal978 * (+135) fixed code block 13:39:37 [[Yo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71035&oldid=36273 * LegionMammal978 * (-86) fixed code blocks 13:39:39 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71036&oldid=71033 * Sinjoro * (+272) 13:40:20 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71037&oldid=71036 * Sinjoro * (+0) 13:50:27 -!- ocharles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:51:35 -!- ocharles has joined. 13:52:50 tromp: Okay, do it like this then: It puts \(\1 1) (\2) into W. 13:54:03 don't see how you get that in W 13:55:36 hmm 13:56:32 Oh, because I shouldn't have the initial lambda. 14:00:33 then \2 makes no sense 14:00:42 that's K 1 14:00:56 Yes, I have a free variable now. 14:01:13 W is set of closed terms?! 14:01:39 Yeah I should just stop thinking aloud. 14:02:52 conceptually, the extra option for W^V looks ok, since W^V K^V reduces to W^V 14:03:24 But you ought to be able to get K^V in front as well, and that'll break things 14:03:48 So I don't really believe it. But it's obviously more convoluted than I thought. 14:04:00 what do you mean by getting K^V in front? 14:05:06 I will make you a believer yet:-) 14:05:34 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:06:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:10:34 [[Universal Lambda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71038&oldid=44126 * YamTokTpaFa * (+102) cat! 14:21:08 tromp: here we go then: (\x. x (\_. x) x) (\x\_. x x) is in B. (the second \_ is part of a head context) 14:23:14 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71039&oldid=71037 * Sinjoro * (-4) 14:24:46 which is the W^V K^V part? 14:25:04 ugh 14:25:20 (\_. x) is in K W^{x} 14:26:22 [[Universal Lambda]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71040&oldid=71038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* External resources */ cat fix 14:27:05 You broke the invariant that elements in V will always become bound to values in W^V' for some V'. 14:27:24 [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71041 * LegionMammal978 * (+139) Created page with "An output command might be useful. ~~~~" 14:27:31 So I would've been very much surprised if this had worked out. 14:30:26 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71042&oldid=71039 * Sinjoro * (+40) 14:30:44 [[Golden sunrise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71043&oldid=69856 * Hakerh400 * (-31) 14:32:28 I should've been quicker to find that example though, those false attempts were embarrassing. 14:37:55 thx for counterexample. W K only gives to a W in head position, where I assumed one at top 14:40:06 is there a better way to include \x. x^2 in W ? 14:41:48 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71044&oldid=71042 * Sinjoro * (+0) 14:42:25 tromp: not without changing B. (\x. x (x (\z. z (\_. x)))) (\x\_. x x) has a normal form. 14:43:08 by changing B I mean, drop all the head context stuff... you'll get a completely different story then, and tricks like these may just work 14:44:49 i mean I could add an option to B^V where it can be W^V^2 14:46:03 hmmm, that's no good 14:46:17 i mean v^2 for v in V 14:46:34 but i'm trying to get a little more general 14:47:09 I understand the desire, but the W/B thing is extremely delicate already. :) 14:47:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:47:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:49:24 oh gosh 14:49:36 I made a legit mistake while writing the makefile 14:49:43 pushed it over and it passed CI, so I released it 14:50:01 it turns out, due to my mistake, on "victims" PC, `rm -rf /bin' is executed 14:50:29 kspalaiologos: you got that by expanding a shell varible that's undefined, right? 14:50:35 hope victim is not running as root:) 14:50:36 yes 14:50:42 tromp, he was 14:51:00 like, rm -rf ${installprefix}/bin 14:51:10 yup 14:51:11 and then ${installprefix} is not defined 14:51:20 I patched it now 14:51:26 but meeeeh 14:53:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:54:29 so how much did it mess up the victim's computer? 14:54:49 he's got some utilities left in /bin somehow 14:54:52 but most of it is gone 14:55:11 I told him to reinstall coreutils using apt 14:55:36 [[Talk:2KWLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71045&oldid=70606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+181) 14:59:03 so adding v^2 for v in V in B is no good either, since v can be bound to your \x -> K (x x) ?! 15:00:32 [[2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71046&oldid=70272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) quote fix, etc 15:05:52 [[XENBLN/Commands]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17684) Created page with "| This language was designed to have minimal errors. | Note: If a command takes an integer or float/double as a parameter, it will try to convert those parameters to integers,..." 15:06:10 tromp: yeah. 15:06:21 [[XENBLN/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71048&oldid=71047 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+67) 15:07:10 [[XENBLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71049&oldid=70441 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-44) /* Commands */ 15:07:51 kspalaiologos: sure, but just coreutils is not enough 15:07:57 yeah 15:08:08 I pasted him over a snippet that will reinstall all the packages hes got already 15:08:46 kspalaiologos: but down in the line that will probably try to run something from /bin during installation 15:09:03 he's got coreutils already 15:09:47 kspalaiologos: you need bash and/or dash and probably more 15:09:58 he's got zsh already 15:10:12 the installer scripts will try to run sh, not zsh 15:10:18 everything is fine by now 15:10:20 symlink 15:10:28 oh good 15:11:23 reminds me of the day I uninstalled libacl from my gentoo system 15:11:50 (that broke most of coreutils) 15:12:57 oh, I recall when I accidentally uninstalled X from the package manager by asking to uninstall what turns out to be a dependency, running startx, and it did nothing with no error or log message. it turns out that the package manager just symlinks X to false if neither Xfree86 or X.org is installed or some such nonsense. 15:13:13 yes, that was back when XFree86 was an option 15:22:17 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71050&oldid=71003 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+140) 15:24:45 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71051&oldid=71044 * Sinjoro * (+104) 15:26:30 -!- imode has joined. 15:32:05 damn, xfree's a few years older than me 15:37:22 well obviously it was a newer version 15:39:44 yep, I presume 15:39:57 but I'm talking about the initial release date 15:40:26 and it's quite possible that XFree86 wasn't actually available at that time already, but the alternative symlink system was still in place for historical reasons 15:40:44 I have actually used XFree86 at some point though, back before I knew about X.org either 15:44:37 #esoteric predates X.org. 15:45:01 Assuming Wikipedia's "Initial release: 6 April 2004" is accurate, anyway. 15:45:47 we should falsify a few more years of back history to #esoteric and HackE?o by the way 15:46:17 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 15:46:31 "Welcome to the international center for esoteric language design, development and deployment, established in 1873." 15:46:47 the wiki too I guess 15:51:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:55:24 b_jonas: I think the opposite, we should be founded in the future 15:55:38 Taneb: hmm, that's an interesting option too 15:55:56 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:02:59 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71052&oldid=71051 * Sinjoro * (+24) /* Powers of 2 */ 16:03:53 that's actually amazing to see the traffic on the wiki 16:04:00 and the fact that there are actually 100 connections to this channel 16:04:40 wow, exactly 100 16:05:09 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71053&oldid=70997 * Sinjoro * (+17) 16:08:58 without fungot too 16:12:52 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:13:09 [[And]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71054&oldid=70648 * LegionMammal978 * (-9) updated link again 16:13:11 [[Cheers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71055&oldid=70646 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again 16:13:13 [[Duck Duck Goose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71056&oldid=70645 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again 16:13:14 [[Noodle Soup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71057&oldid=70647 * LegionMammal978 * (+0) updated link again 16:13:33 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 16:14:26 b_jonas: another option is we are established right now 16:28:14 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:28:37 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 17:09:35 in all seriousness though 17:09:46 that's a shame some old members left 17:09:53 Eh, people have lives 17:10:21 true 17:22:08 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71058&oldid=71052 * Sinjoro * (+113) added Fibonacci sequence 17:24:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:30:00 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Willicoder * New user account 17:31:44 Wha, where's fungot? 17:31:51 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71059&oldid=71058 * Sinjoro * (+540) 17:31:54 And how long have we been fungot-deficient. 17:32:56 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71060&oldid=71025 * Willicoder * (+403) 17:33:48 -!- fungot has joined. 17:34:41 fungot: How are you feeling? 17:34:41 fizzie: this hasn't been so important in the overall organization and they're thinking about removing lambda in version 3, with scheme48 as some fnord infty 17:35:06 All subsystems nominal, I guess. 17:39:48 -!- Willicoder has joined. 17:45:45 -!- orbitaldecay has joined. 17:47:42 -!- Willicoder has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:23 luckily HackEso has mostly been picking up the slack 18:17:03 fungot: as some fnord infty => I’d very like to meet that kind of infty 18:17:03 arseniiv: i dropped the libertarian thing when i was using 18:18:48 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:22:26 fungot, what is a fnord? 18:22:26 kspalaiologos: be back in 18:23:10 a, that's something like foo or bar 18:26:33 From a strictly technical sense & for fungot specifically, it's any infrequent word. There's a feature in the language model training to replace all with less than N occurrences with a special "UNK" token, which can generally speaking result in better (in terms of a performance-to-size tradeoff) models for analysis, but of course in synthesis the bot has to say *something* when the UNK token happens to 18:26:34 fizzie: julia is forcer's sweetie.). it already uses autotools? is that from 18:26:39 come up. 18:32:10 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71061&oldid=70920 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) 18:45:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:46:44 fungot: fnord fnord fnord fnord fnord 18:46:44 arseniiv: where a/ b: a-b, fnord, write it. and when i rebooted and tried it again, this time with good cause i need to 18:46:50 yes! 18:47:01 I win 18:49:03 [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71062&oldid=70983 * CatIsFluffy * (-13) Optimizations 18:51:24 [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71063&oldid=71062 * CatIsFluffy * (-2) Someday I will actually fix this before saving changes 18:55:28 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 18:55:54 [[Perception]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71064 * Baidicoot * (+452) Created page with "= Perception = This is a WIP (by which I mean 'I am currently trying to see if this language is a duplicate') Esolang where the user percives the language as one that can solv..." 18:57:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:02:21 [[Eso2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71065&oldid=70734 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Resources */ cat add 19:04:37 [[LogicF---]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71066&oldid=70708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) 19:05:37 [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71067&oldid=70096 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Commands */ 19:05:42 -!- orbitaldecay has joined. 19:06:12 [[Nybblang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71068&oldid=71067 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Turing-Complete Nybblang */ memory is like a stack 19:08:34 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:09:11 [[ROTfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71069&oldid=70546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) 19:10:58 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71070&oldid=71059 * Sinjoro * (-10) /* Print Function */ 19:11:34 -!- orbitaldecay has joined. 19:28:32 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71071&oldid=71050 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Infinite cat program */ 19:49:39 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:58:20 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71072&oldid=71012 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Microscript */ 19:58:43 [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71073&oldid=65647 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+1) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */ 19:58:53 [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71074&oldid=71073 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0) /* Truth-machine (3 bytes) */ 19:59:14 [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71075&oldid=71074 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+0) 20:00:15 [[Microscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71076&oldid=71075 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Truth-machine (4 bytes) */ Shoot, I forgot this was implicit 20:00:44 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71077&oldid=71072 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) /* Microscript */ 20:10:05 Would it be possible to make a simple assembly language that compiles to FRACTRAN? 20:12:43 Maybe. 20:13:59 well, based on TCness it's definitely /possible/, the question is more as to how efficient the resulting language is and how direct the compilation is 20:14:46 that said, asms for The Waterfall Model seem reasonably easy to write, and there's a more or less direct TWM → Fractran compilation (although the resulting Fractran probably isn't very idiomatic) 20:16:40 I should think to specify names by factors by prime numbers or whatever 20:32:18 oh btw, this comment mentions J. H. Conway running a fractran program that presumably he wrote => https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/john-conway/#comment-552187 20:32:37 one that finds prime numbers 20:33:29 I guess I should link that from the wiki page 20:34:57 [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71078&oldid=62112 * B jonas * (+202) /* External resources */ 20:44:33 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71079&oldid=71071 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+303) /* Examples */ 20:50:34 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:07:26 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71080&oldid=71079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) 21:18:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 21:20:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:41:43 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:43:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:44:34 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:20:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:25:31 -!- xkapastel has joined. 22:31:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:39:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:42:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:42:46 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:34:37 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 2020-04-15: 00:29:51 -!- A35 has joined. 00:30:58 fungot: Sdofg 00:30:59 A35: r2q2 is the wind behind my back. i use ultraedit and notepad++.) 00:31:21 fungot: Who invented Sdofg? 00:31:21 A35: the option type is a type ( stm t), what should i say 00:31:34 fungot: Why did they invent Sdofg? 00:31:34 A35: hmm you're right caseium... pltcollects doesn't work anything like a union in java. some people here have websites in dmoz? 00:32:13 fungot: How does Sfofg work like? 00:32:13 A35: the moral of the story but the whole point of this thing called ' considering going outside' 00:33:20 I didn't know how Sdofg was useful in the first place. 00:34:05 fungot: Do you like to get recorded into the logs? 00:34:52 fungot: Got↔Fun 00:36:27 -!- A35 has left. 00:36:51 -!- the has joined. 00:38:25 I chose the most frequent English word as my name. 00:38:42 This enables me to be nosy about every single message. 00:39:52 Wait, I start to get notifications from one year ago! 00:44:12 When an edit is started, if you click preview, the edit is modified by a bot. 00:44:33 If you submit the edit though, your content is being edited by another bot. 00:44:49 You consistently recieve edits to your userpages by bots. 00:45:10 Unfortunately the system has hid all these bot edits because you've turned them off. 00:45:44 Once these bots edit your computer's memory you won't be able to edit anymore. 00:46:21 These bots don't exist in any memory and always affects you. 00:46:55 Which means that you can not use any software to delete them. 00:48:09 Since I'm basically saying nonsense I'd invite fungot. 00:48:09 the: i have ironed my shirt once already today, minion! 00:48:55 For example, Bots like fungot don't really exist anywhere but on the Internet. 00:48:56 the: and it's some unicode char like _ but at the moment, so i can fold them into a memory address 00:49:15 If you try to search for fungot in your computer you won't be able to find anything. 00:49:16 the: you could do it 00:50:02 However, these bots are really powerful. E.g. fungot has already posted 1 million messages here already! 00:50:02 the: lemme check if i'm just an outsider, eh :-p) if that's what you told 00:51:00 Although you only see fungot posting inside the chatroom, they secretly edit wiki pages! 00:51:43 Like most other bots, fungot randomly edits wiki pages without the system's notice. 00:52:44 Don't believe it? If you drag fungot's username onto the Desktop your computer will immediately be unusable. 01:06:10 Are you using Windows? 01:11:49 zzo38: Yes. 01:12:14 Well, that explains it, then. 01:12:40 Explains what? 01:13:09 Why if you drag fungot's username onto the Desktop your computer will immediately be unusable. 01:13:09 zzo38: so actors don't get access to those nice macros to help make an icfp contest team? ( you're on both channels, i see 01:13:20 I use Linux, so there is no "Desktop", so it doesn't apply to me. 01:14:18 zzo38: I was just saying nonsense. Before that message I verified twice to make sure that the username is not draggable. 01:14:39 Even if you dragged it, it will pretty much do nothing to your computer. 01:14:58 That depends what IRC client you are using whether or not it is draggable, I think. 01:17:34 (Although I don't know if any IRC client allows dragging usernames) 01:23:22 Do you like custom Magic: the Gathering cards and puzzles? 01:24:33 I dislike esolangs in general. 01:25:15 Other than, for some reason, golfing languages. 01:25:39 O. Well, there are a few golfing languages. 01:29:41 -!- are has joined. 01:33:51 zzo38: Go ahead. 01:34:10 Go ahead to do what? 01:34:58 zzo38: What's your purpose of mentioning "there are a few golfing languages" then? 01:35:40 There is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Golfing_language 01:35:51 (or make up your own) 01:35:51 if you dislike esolangs, why are you here. 01:36:18 Code golf can be made with other programming languages too, though. 01:36:35 imode: yes? 01:41:01 -!- the has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:46:01 -!- are has changed nick to the. 01:52:18 -!- the has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:08:11 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:09:40 Goodness it has been a long time since I actually esolanged. 02:20:34 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:46:10 Will you do again today, though? 02:59:58 idk, maybe 03:00:13 It's hard working up the energy for more tech stuff after spending a day job doing tech stuff 03:00:48 And frankly Kubernetes-brand YAML feels like an esolang some days 03:37:43 [[Octo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71081 * Apollyon094 * (+2151) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{infobox proglang |name=Octal Composite Turing-complete OISCs |author=[[Asher I]] |year=[[:Category:2020|2020]] |memsys=tape-based |dimensions=one-dimensional |..." 03:38:38 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71082&oldid=71081 * Apollyon094 * (-16) 03:39:09 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71083&oldid=71082 * Apollyon094 * (-24) 03:39:32 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71084&oldid=71083 * Apollyon094 * (+8) 03:40:23 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71085&oldid=71084 * Apollyon094 * (+0) 03:40:46 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71086&oldid=71085 * Apollyon094 * (+13) 03:41:36 [[Asher I]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71087 * Apollyon094 * (+30) Redirected page to [[User:Apollyon094]] 03:43:08 [[User:Apollyon094]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71088&oldid=70438 * Apollyon094 * (+86) 03:44:01 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71089&oldid=71086 * Apollyon094 * (+0) 03:44:15 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71090&oldid=71089 * Apollyon094 * (+0) 03:44:34 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71091&oldid=71090 * Apollyon094 * (+1) 03:45:25 [[User:Apollyon094]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71092&oldid=71088 * Apollyon094 * (+113) 03:53:02 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71093&oldid=71091 * Apollyon094 * (+114) 03:53:20 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71094&oldid=71093 * Apollyon094 * (+1) 04:39:05 -!- imode has joined. 04:40:43 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Watermelon3D * New user account 04:44:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71095&oldid=71060 * Watermelon3D * (+163) /* Introductions */ 04:56:57 The Wikipedia page on FRACTRAN feels so much more illuminating than the esolang wiki page 05:17:50 [[FishScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71096 * Watermelon3D * (+4904) FishScript is a fish-based language. 05:52:44 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:24:50 -!- konrads has joined. 06:26:25 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71097&oldid=71096 * Watermelon3D * (+153) 06:26:25 -!- konrads has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:28:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:29:07 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71098&oldid=71097 * Watermelon3D * (+23) 06:35:15 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 06:52:32 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 07:37:24 -!- FreeFull has joined. 07:59:25 -!- shinh_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:03:02 -!- shinh has joined. 08:57:23 `ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/index.html Due to current world events, we are extending the 27th IOCCC until 2020-May-15 06:26:49 UTC 08:57:24 ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/index.html Due to current world events, we are extending the 27th IOCCC until 2020-May-15 06:26:49 UTC: b_jonas rain2 rain1 09:02:38 oh kspalaiologos found my easter-egg 09:02:56 hmm? 09:03:03 the one about eggplants? 09:03:06 the one I planted in the topic :P 09:03:12 :P 09:03:20 ya got anymore of them? 09:03:26 (that's why it has a hyphen) 09:04:02 Well the 5th word is also egg-inspired. 09:05:02 But Easter is over, so maybe it's just egg-spired now. 09:07:02 Egg-spire sounds like a Minecraft construction. 09:08:09 hmm, stacking eggs 09:08:49 maybe you could build a bridge out of eggs and then you could walk on eggshells 09:18:31 [[PureBrainz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71099&oldid=71070 * Sinjoro * (+21) /* Commands */ 09:21:28 b_jonas: alternative idea: we are established in the ever moving now 09:29:35 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:40:59 Taneb: the twist to that story is, maybe it's not moving at all. 09:42:09 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:44:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:44:31 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:05:10 . o O ( Modern clickbait... "10 things you don't care about and never will" ) 10:23:27 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 10:33:44 https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/04/finally-we-may-have-a-path-to-the-fundamental-theory-of-physics-and-its-beautiful/ 10:35:49 zzo38: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/comprehensive-rules-changes-2020-04-10 10:36:01 it mentions fuse counters explicitly 10:36:44 fuses 10:36:56 re https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-04-02.html#lkc 10:38:46 . o O ( "As long as this card is in play, "fuse" is a valid counter subtype." ) 10:42:45 also, lands printed with three basic land types 10:46:37 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:47:51 -!- izabera_ has changed nick to izabera. 10:50:37 . o O ( L-systems failed to describe nature... let's try graph rewriting instead. ) 11:33:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:34:28 `quote Stephen Wolfram 11:34:29 No output. 11:43:43 -!- Kiwi61 has joined. 11:44:00 -!- Kiwi61 has left. 11:45:14 -!- Kiwi61 has joined. 11:45:40 -!- Kiwi61 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:55:03 `quote wolfram 11:55:04 618) wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game \ 1027) would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners \ 1105) i find some deep satisfaction in the fact that the legacy wolfram will leave is as the man who made calculus homework orders of magnitude easier 12:07:48 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71100&oldid=71053 * Watermelon3D * (+17) /* F */ 12:10:16 [[User:Watermelon3D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71101 * Watermelon3D * (+41) Created page with "hi i am water melon i made [[FishScript]]" 12:17:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:35:57 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 12:42:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:49:55 -!- tromp has joined. 13:13:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:21:21 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:24:10 Good morning all 13:27:15 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 13:54:02 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:02:45 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ardie * New user account 14:04:50 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:07:09 -!- Frater_EST has left. 14:13:31 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71102&oldid=71095 * Ardie * (+194) 14:14:25 [[User talk:Ardie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71103 * Ardie * (+45) Created page with "I'm here looking for a language to formalize." 14:19:20 [[User talk:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71104&oldid=69595 * Ardie * (+158) 14:19:37 [[User talk:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71105&oldid=71104 * Ardie * (+2) 14:19:51 [[User talk:Ardie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71106&oldid=71103 * Ardie * (+77) 14:28:31 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71107&oldid=71080 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+340) /* Examples */ 14:29:55 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71108&oldid=71107 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Truth-machine */ 14:33:20 -!- spruit11 has joined. 14:34:27 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71109&oldid=71108 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+390) /* Variable Def */ 15:23:22 -!- imode has joined. 15:25:43 int-e: do you know how our BB programs deal with (\1 1) (\\1 (2 2)) ? 15:29:01 wib_jonas: I have seen that. However, I should wait to see when the rules are actually published, to know what they are (although about mutate and companion is mainly what I want to look for; my questions about ability counters have been answered in that document already) 15:29:23 tromp: that's just a simple loop? 15:29:56 tromp: T = (\\1 (2 2)), T T -> \1 (T T) and the (T T) is the next redex. 15:30:55 zzo38: as for the new rules for mutate and companion, the release notes tells most of that: "https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ikoria-lair-behemoths-and-commander-2020-edition-release-notes-2020-04-10" 15:32:08 the pau day is 06-10 (recalculated from 04-71) 15:32:52 int-e: Easter isn't over. 15:32:57 int-e: but it's not detected with isW ? 15:33:22 wib_jonas: O, I didn't see that. Now I can see. 15:37:01 tromp: it shouldn't be. 15:37:02 In the past I have generalized haunt, so that cards that are now haunt will become "haunt creature", but allowing new haunt cards to haunt other objects and/or players (it is not limited to permanents). So I thought also of a similar thing with mutate, where existing mutate becomes "mutate non-Human creature" (mutate is limited to permanents, though). 15:37:38 int-e: and it's not detected with r `S.member` s ? 15:38:02 tromp: it should be detected there. 15:39:10 i thought s collects the whole terms in a reduction 15:39:39 It collects redexes... the T T redex, which occurs again. 15:43:29 ah, I see 15:43:53 The "unusual situations" described for mutate seem to follow from the other rules, merely being clarification. 15:45:35 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 15:46:48 int-e: after hacking my program, it reports (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\1 1) 1)) as unknown, which i didn't see before 15:47:32 doesn't come up as TODO in yours either 15:47:57 I think I have seen that one before 15:48:31 +-- TODO: (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\1) 1) 1) 15:48:38 from the first BB.txt commit. 15:48:47 So, that's different. 15:49:52 that has id in it, this has (K double) in it 15:49:52 tromp: But I have seen quite a bit of trouble resulting from interaction of the loop detection and simplification. 15:50:01 17:48:47 So, that's different. 15:51:15 Also I'm not working on any of this right now. 15:53:21 Even if fuse counters did grant fuse, fuse isn't a meaningful ability for permanents anyways. But I still like explicit ability counters such as "flying ability counter" instead. 15:56:52 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:58:04 zzo38: yes, the echo counters were slightly more worrying to me. but the update bullet says that it clears that up. 15:59:01 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:59:46 zzo38: I don't like that wording though. "flying ability counter" sounds ok, but it sounds worse with some of the other relevant keyword abilities 16:05:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:08:55 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 16:12:07 -!- b_jonas has joined. 16:18:56 should we put the IOCCC news to the topic? 16:19:02 wib_jonas: Another possibility is to add quotation marks if it doesn't look good without it, I suppose. (This would also be used for parameterized keyword abilities and that stuff) 16:19:32 I guess that's old news, it's dated to three weeks before now 16:19:38 s/before now/ago/ 16:35:53 zzo38: another possibility would be to call them something other than "counters", even if they mostly behave like counters, which would be useful because "counter" is an overloaded word anyway 16:36:16 Yes, perhaps. But I don't know what to call it. 16:38:46 Also, even if I use that in my unofficial cards I probably would not change it, since I don't want to make too many major incompatible changes to existing rules. 16:40:26 zzo38: they need not be incompatible if you say that it's just a different wording, like a synonym 16:41:48 an incompatibility would be when a game situation that can come up in both your variant and vanilla diverges to a different game state 16:43:58 O, OK. 16:49:07 on the plus side, we finally have payoff for the old rules change that turned lifelink to be no longer a trigger on the damage 16:50:46 Ikoria has lifelink counters, and multiple of them on the are mostly redundant (except to costs or effects that consume an arbitrary counter from a permanent, eg. Medicine Runner or Power Conduit) 17:02:45 Yes, although there are other advantages to that change of lifelink too 17:06:34 zzo38: sure: surviving combat more often because you gain life from your lifelink blocker knights the same time as you lose life from the opponent's creatures combat damage 17:14:46 Maybe "rune" can mean ability counter. (I think I have seen some other games using "rune" in this way. The problem with this is if "rune" becomes a new type or subtype.) 18:11:14 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71110&oldid=71109 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Truth-machine */ 18:16:07 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:23:12 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:39:35 -!- MDude has joined. 18:58:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:05:33 -!- MDead has joined. 19:05:42 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 19:07:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 19:08:41 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:08:48 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 19:14:57 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:14:58 [[P]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71111&oldid=36345 * Nonameremote * (+156) Added external resource 19:59:41 -!- atslash has joined. 20:03:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 20:04:01 -!- stux has quit (Quit: Aloha!). 20:04:09 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:06:13 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 20:07:03 -!- stux has joined. 20:49:57 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71112&oldid=71110 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+744) 20:59:32 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:00:28 [[Bunk bed]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71113&oldid=70906 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Reverse bits */ 21:15:18 [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71114&oldid=71098 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) cat add 21:17:25 -!- Melvar has joined. 21:43:21 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:45:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:46:11 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:11:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:13:33 -!- imode has joined. 23:45:39 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:55:46 -!- preston has joined. 2020-04-16: 00:02:59 "If you dont know, Fractran is an esoteric programming language. That means it is extraordinary difficult to write any program in Fractran." 00:03:08 I feel like it's immediately critical to disprove it. 00:03:19 HQ9+ depending on program desired? 00:03:57 Also it might say something not great about me that I instantly desired to nitpick the ascribed meaning of esoteric programming language 00:04:26 https://malisper.me/building-fizzbuzz-fractran-bottom/ 00:05:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:08:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:08:39 The article about category theory on Wikipedia does not mention category of matrices, it look like to me. 02:37:26 [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71115&oldid=59475 * Watermelon3D * (+107) 02:38:31 [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71116&oldid=71115 * Watermelon3D * (+2) 02:43:34 -!- preston has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:55:41 -!- Elderberry has joined. 03:04:44 [[Chicken]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71117&oldid=71116 * IFcoltransG * (+16) Swapped a few categories around 03:07:25 -!- imode has joined. 03:27:36 -!- Elderberry has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:34 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:56:11 -!- atslash has joined. 03:58:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:58:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:09:36 in English, is there a rude or taboo word matching /^([klmnrst][aiu]|[aiu][klmnrst]){2}/i , including a misspelled word that could still be considered rude like "fukc", but other than "kaka"? I'm trying to make a human-typable encoding for something, but want to make sure it won't result in words that people may consider insulting. "kaka" doesn't matter because repeated syllables are not allowed. 04:09:53 If there is, I can change those set of letters (while keeping the cardinality). 04:12:21 I don't know, but does PCRE have a way to specify that this repetition is not allowed? Also, do you need the set of letters to be same regardless of the order? 04:14:27 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:16:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:21:04 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71118&oldid=70908 * RocketRace * (+56) Add external resources section 05:22:09 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71119&oldid=71118 * RocketRace * (+54) Fix link formatting 05:26:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 05:26:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:01:24 @messages-loud 06:01:24 spruit11 said 6d 10h 45m 19s ago: Could, or would, you be so kind to support an arxiv submission of a paper I wrote? 06:02:30 spruit11: i have never submitted to arxiv, and haven't had an academic position in nearly two decades, so i don't think i'm eligible. 06:02:54 @tell spruit11 i have never submitted to arxiv, and haven't had an academic position in nearly two decades, so i don't think i'm eligible. 06:02:54 Consider it noted. 06:04:48 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:12:13 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:12:35 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:13:47 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:18:49 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:18:58 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LorryWoodman * New user account 06:19:32 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:24:07 -!- iczero has quit (Excess Flood). 06:24:40 -!- iczero has joined. 06:26:36 -!- rodgort has joined. 06:28:37 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71120&oldid=71102 * LorryWoodman * (+239) /* Introductions */ 06:31:09 [[Subleq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71121&oldid=67339 * LorryWoodman * (+10) Correct TechTinkering URL 06:31:27 So, Agatha's being reminded of the waters of the Dyne in today's GG, right? <-- i thought so, i was basically expecting the next strips to suggest the Dyne _was_ the cause (assuming the true source of the Dyne is outside the time bubble, it can't flow through the castle's curse-extraction machinery anymore) 06:32:05 but that was several strips ago, and nothing said 06:33:25 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: No route to host). 06:36:54 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:37:37 -!- kmc has joined. 06:47:52 _what_ 06:51:09 kspalaiologos: where? 06:51:46 what is this message about 06:54:29 which message 06:58:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:06:38 -!- A-ee has joined. 07:07:36 Just like you can't fold a sheet of printing paper over 7 times. 07:08:05 But by the time you get to that, you are obviously doing something wrong. :) 07:08:47 -!- A-ee has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:12:06 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:15:26 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:20:05 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71122&oldid=71114 * Watermelon3D * (+48) /* Commands */ 07:46:52 -!- tromp has joined. 07:51:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:54:15 -!- tromp has joined. 08:06:06 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:22:10 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:22:36 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 08:48:51 zzo38: I could write a regex that doesn't allow repetitions, but I wanted my question to be human-readable, so I didn't 08:51:42 zzo38: same regardless the order: yes. this is for representing the moves in a board game, in a video game implementation. there's a board that is a square grid of size 7x3, a player chooses two distinct squares for their move. I want to label the columns and rows, and the players will represent that move towards my software by typing four letters. it's enough to always write the squares with the column 08:51:48 consonant first and the row vowel after, 08:52:09 and that's how I'll print moves, but I want the game to be easily usable without much of a learning curve, so I want to accept the other order too. 08:53:45 so my current plan is to label the columns KLMNRST and the rows AIU, but I have a lot of freedom here 08:57:36 `grep -E '^([klmnrst][aiu]|[aiu][klmnrst]){2}$' /usr/dict/words|grep na|head -1 08:57:37 grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERNS [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information. 09:10:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:10:36 b_jonas: is there any reason you can't use letter-digit pairs? 09:10:45 that's the usual solution to this problem 09:11:21 that said, I think most swearwords in English are consonant-heavy, but I think potentially offensive combinations are almost impossible to avoid because of all the languages they could be potentially offensive in 09:11:30 (it's not enough to just avoid /English/ swearwords) 09:43:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:45:00 ais523: I could use letter-digit pairs too, yes 09:45:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:45:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:47:07 ais523: but some of the audience is fluent in leetspeak and replacing letters with digits, so even with digits you have to be careful. the move could spell K1K3 or something. 09:49:18 I could even go with digits only, with 3456789 for the columns and 123 for the rows. 09:50:37 surely you want 0 in there to avoid the duplicated 3? 09:51:05 why? what's wrong with a duplicated 3? 09:54:03 I could go with a boring ABCDEFG for columns and 123 for the rows. it works for chess so it can't be too offensive. 09:55:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:55:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 09:55:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:55:34 b_jonas: you'd have an ambiguity if /two/ digits were duplicated; there's no ambiguity with one digit duplicated but it may be hard to mentally parse because you don't know what a 3 means without looking at the other one 09:56:27 that's true. I plan to display the moves visually on the board, so mental parsing isn't too much of a problem, but it might still be better to avoid. 09:56:39 and in chess you occasionally get ambiguites that need to be resolved as, say, Rcc3 and R3c3, a duplicated 3 would make that sort of ambiguity even more confusing to resolve 09:58:01 in chess notation, yes. this isn't chess notation and there are no kings and rooks and bishops and knights. 10:30:11 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1). 10:41:44 oh fungot is here, rejoice 10:41:44 int-e: my parser doesn't do character classes, so harder for anyone but him why shouldn't he do that 10:55:12 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:09:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:18:38 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:18:54 -!- tromp has joined. 11:19:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 11:34:57 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 11:40:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:00:53 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 12:29:02 int-e: what output would you expect from print $ nf $ let lid = Abs (Var 0) in Abs (App (Var 0) (Abs lid)) `App` lid ? 12:29:35 would you expect Nothing? 12:35:22 or even simpler, from print $ nf $ App (Abs (App (Var 0) (Var 0))) (Abs (Var 0)) ? 12:36:54 -!- Elderberry has joined. 12:49:13 Is the room usually active, or often dead? 12:52:38 int-e: the problem is that simplify ends up doing the reduction that is later done by nf, and then nf seeing a repeating redex 12:53:24 here's my debugging output for illustration: 12:53:29 nf [] (\1 1) (\1) 12:53:29 (\1 1) (\1) simplifies to \1 12:53:29 r = \1 case \1 1 of 12:53:31 nf [\1] (\1) (\1) 12:53:33 (\1) (\1) simplifies to \1 12:53:35 r = \1 case \1 of 12:53:37 repeating redex \1 12:53:39 Nothing 12:55:16 -!- pimlu has joined. 12:57:02 hey guys, for anyone who has an interest in FRACTRAN, I made a really fast FRACTRAN interpreter 12:57:29 it should make more classes of programs runnable than previously was possible 12:57:33 https://pimlu.github.io/fractran/ 12:58:23 tromp: I would not expect it to terminate on infinite terms, precisely because simplification is pretty eager 12:58:56 -!- Elderberry has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:59:02 it mistakes a term with normal form for one without 12:59:05 * int-e thinks 12:59:35 i'm gonna try to do the simplification at start of nf, before the case analysis 12:59:36 hrm 13:00:08 I just should not IRC before waking up. 13:00:23 (never mind that it's the middle of the afternoon) 13:00:45 that seems to work better 13:01:00 enjoy your coffee:-) 13:01:00 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:02:51 So what you're saying is that I have a bug. 13:02:54 Good to know. 13:04:31 yes. my bugfix produces lots more TODOs 13:04:40 probably connected to simplifying redexrs before adding them to the list of seen redexes. 13:04:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:05:47 ahhh man the font is messed up in the help menu. no such thing as releasing without bugs 13:09:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:10:49 tromp: I undid the offending change (which I never intended to commit in the first place... but it happened and I thought the code was kind of okay at that point) 13:11:13 the dangers of commit -a 13:17:07 okay, should be fixed now. anyway, the fast interpreter uses big integers for the register values 13:17:17 (and can actually run for example, 2^100 iterations of some programs) 13:22:50 tromp: reverted the corresponding list in BB.txt as well 13:25:46 tromp: Sorry about that. I had played with the code one very late evening and ended up with something I no longer understood. 13:27:07 But I had no intention of committing it so I thought that was fine. 13:30:15 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:30:39 the revert doesn't support B^V = W^V B^V anymore? 13:37:01 -!- preston has joined. 13:37:09 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:37:55 esopriveteric 13:39:01 [[TheSingularity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71123&oldid=65722 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-6) /* Conditional statements */ 13:42:10 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elderberry * New user account 13:42:44 int-e: your current BBx bombs with a BBx: BBx.lhs:(25,3)-(27,29): Non-exhaustive patterns in function size 13:43:23 everytime I see a word elderberry, I automatically think of Monthy Python's "your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries" 13:47:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Fetchez la vache!). 13:48:12 -!- Melvar has joined. 13:55:09 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71124&oldid=71120 * Elderberry * (+273) 14:19:11 -!- Elderberry has joined. 14:22:10 -!- Elderberry has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:30:34 -!- pimlu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:38:08 -!- imode has joined. 15:17:50 [[Talk:FishScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71125 * Willicoder * (+156) Created page with "What does "doubles the fish in front of it" mean? (with the tilde) ~~~~" 15:35:36 [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71126&oldid=70992 * Palaiologos * (+79) newest instruction format 15:54:36 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 16:05:54 [[Talk:FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71127&oldid=71125 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+441) 16:07:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:13:58 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:14:18 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 16:31:31 tromp: there is no BBx.lhs 16:32:00 tromp: or, if there is, it's yours, not mine. 16:36:23 int-e: i had one, but renamed it. and now when i do ghc --make BBx.hs, it somehow compiles my other program and calls it ./BBx 16:37:44 sorry for false alarm 16:42:12 tromp: maybe it's a timestamp problem? BBx.hs older than BBx.hi and BBx.o... 16:44:36 It's a possibility at least... which is kind of funny because nowadays, the recompilation check is intelligent enough to catch changes in optimization flags. 16:44:58 But apparently the source file name is not on the list of criteria :) 16:45:35 [[Talk:2KWLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71128&oldid=71045 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-12) better wiki style 16:45:59 [[Talk:FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71129&oldid=71127 * Willicoder * (+160) 16:46:28 -!- Frater_EST has left. 16:59:15 tromp: And right, the revert dropped all changes, including the (sound) extension to W. 16:59:59 I'm not in a good mindset to think about this, so I just reverted to a known safe version. 17:14:03 I'm happy, I may have found a deterministic reproduction of the frequent crashes of the software we use at work. Tomorrow I'll have to work to reduce it to as small as I can. 17:15:03 what beam was that? 17:15:16 sorry, wrong channel for the last line 17:19:06 fungot: what beam was that? 17:19:06 int-e: i think i'd prefer a way of thinking. be careful though... scheme is killin' me here!! 17:19:31 that one was pretty good. 17:19:43 `grwp scheme 17:19:45 boily:“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque. \ ciol:ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming 17:20:53 `2 grwp scheme 17:20:54 2/3:ing language that has insults as commands. \ cipation:A cipation is an evil scheme that only works if no one is prepared for it. \ keming:Keming is a text compression scheme popular in Word processors. \ madbr:madbr alternates between making sense, and being logical. He doesn't monetize the brotherhood scheme. \ oregon:Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left. \ taah:TaAH (Terrible and A 17:20:58 `n 17:20:59 3/3:d-Hoc) is the naming scheme used for HackEso commands. It is highly acronymous and portmantic. 17:21:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:23:10 [[AT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71130&oldid=70100 * Hakerh400 * (+52) Add pronunciation 17:25:59 [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71131&oldid=71130 * Hakerh400 * (-2) 17:26:47 [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71132&oldid=71131 * Hakerh400 * (+16) 17:45:17 -!- MDead has joined. 17:45:19 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:45:24 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 17:46:11 @tell oerjan oh. bummer. 17:46:12 Consider it noted. 17:51:49 -!- preston has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:55:39 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:05:56 Hmm. How unfortunate. 18:06:02 Now what? 18:07:45 what now? 18:19:20 there is a Rihanna song with this name 18:19:44 what no-o-o-ow 18:22:50 hllo 18:26:13 I wanted to submit some thingy I wrote to arxiv and need an endorser. But who? 18:26:29 Apparently not oerjan. Bummer. 18:26:54 Maybe try viXra if you cannot post on arXiv, I suppose. 18:27:39 Have a look. 18:28:43 Hmm. I'ld rather not, I guess. 18:28:51 Bit of a bad rep. 18:29:01 [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71133&oldid=71122 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+125) /* Interpreters */ Added Willicoder's repo 18:33:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:33:20 I don't konw if there is any prohibition against posting on viXra and then later post on arXiv too once you have an endorser. 18:35:15 O, I looked at the instructions and it says it is OK, apparently. 18:35:58 Yah, but it doesn't make sense to me. 18:36:06 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71134&oldid=71061 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) Removed redirect to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] 18:36:27 I mean, I can post it on Facebook too. 18:36:57 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71135&oldid=71134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+164) 18:36:59 ooh! post it on facebook 18:37:25 Uh, well. I already did. 18:37:40 But then, there's nobody there who would really care. 18:37:44 Hmpf. 18:38:44 Dunno. 18:39:36 What is the document about? 18:40:20 It's a bit of a lowbrow document about how my language, Egel, evaluates stuff. 18:40:35 Lemme give the link. 18:41:08 https://github.com/egel-lang/egel-tex/blob/master/semantics/semantics.pdf 18:41:38 I see nothing about subset of PDF to use, except that it should not embed executable files, but I think that they should be limited to a better subset, because many of the features of PDF is no good. 18:42:31 Uh? 18:43:26 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71136&oldid=71112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+416) 18:47:07 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:51:41 spruit11: wish you luck :) 18:52:46 I need an endorser, not luck! 18:52:54 But thanks, anyway. 18:56:26 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:07:07 [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71137&oldid=70993 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Int literals */ 19:07:17 Maybe I'll ask in #proglangdesign? 19:07:24 Let's try that. 19:07:28 [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71138&oldid=71137 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Examples */ 19:08:31 [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71139&oldid=71138 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* Functions */ 19:08:43 [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71140&oldid=71139 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) /* Examples */ 19:10:17 [[Indent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71141&oldid=71140 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+118) /* Variables */ 19:12:54 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:15:05 [[String]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71142&oldid=66282 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) Fixed links 19:20:14 [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71143&oldid=56716 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) fixed link; should this not be a concept article? 19:25:34 [[String rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71144&oldid=68285 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) template + cats 19:25:44 [[String rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71145&oldid=71144 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) template fix 19:31:37 [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71146&oldid=71143 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+128) 19:32:25 [[String-rewriting paradigm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71147&oldid=71146 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Examples */ 19:32:53 [[User:Willicoder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71148 * Willicoder * (+188) Created page with "Hi! I'm Willicoder and I love to code! I made an interpreter for [[FishScript]], and I might make an esolang someday. If you want to contact me, use User_talk:Willicoder|my..." 19:51:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:58:49 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:40:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:45:43 [[Strvar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71149 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1838) Created page with "'''Strvar''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] based on [[string]] [[rewriting]]. ==Syntax== Every line in a Strvar program is either a variable definition or..." 20:46:47 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71150&oldid=71077 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+202) /* Strvar */ 20:47:08 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:49:30 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71151&oldid=70960 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Languages */ 20:50:12 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71152&oldid=71100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* S */ 21:15:51 What is the most number of pieces to give check at once in xiangqi? I made up a quadruple check. 21:20:12 proc lambda {arguments body args} { 21:20:12 return [list ::apply [list $arguments $body] {*}$args] 21:20:12 } 21:20:35 What programming language is it? 21:20:42 Tcl 21:32:04 -!- preston has joined. 21:43:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:44:22 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:46:14 -!- preston has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:46:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:46:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:32:15 int-e: my current BB.lhs has only 1 TODO at 32, 2 at 33 and 34 each 22:33:14 using generalized W rule, triple loop detection, and argument reduction on strict functions 22:33:46 also found no slowdown of lists instead of S.Set 22:34:37 will try 35 tomorrow, after dental visit 23:20:50 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2020-04-17: 00:00:59 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:20:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:23:00 Yeah, that's pretty Tcl alright 00:47:18 "pretty Tcl" as in, that Tcl snippit looks nice, or "pretty Tcl" as in, that snippit is very Tcl-like? 01:00:37 -!- Soni has changed nick to SoniEx2. 01:49:32 Can you make TeX to keep a question mark on the same page as the beginning of the sentence it belongs to? I can think of a few possibilities, but have not tried it. 01:50:14 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:51:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:26:31 Do you know Setext? Like Markdown and reStructuredText, it is made to be readable without specialized software. However, Wikipedia lists the MIME type only for Markdown. 02:31:27 [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71153&oldid=71063 * CatIsFluffy * (+2972) Because 131 wasn't enough 02:34:25 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71154&oldid=70818 * CatIsFluffy * (+316) /* Adding Underload numbers */ new section 03:46:59 Sgeo: The snippet is Tcl, and rather elegant 03:48:23 any of y'all ever play a MOO/MUSH/MUCK before. 03:49:34 I have a slight presence on M*U*S*H and LambdaMOO 03:50:37 I have an account on ifMUD 03:51:28 I have but never really got _into_ it 03:52:04 fascinerating. 03:52:04 A fictional world in my head is based on a LambdaMOO-like universe 03:53:57 it kind of bothers me that services like that haven't been "mainstreamed" in a style similar to Discord. 03:56:16 the fun people could have together could be unimaginable. 03:59:13 Sgeo: have you ever written any MUSHcode? 03:59:30 seeing it makes me think it should have an esolangs wiki entry. 03:59:41 Can you give a short example? 03:59:56 A little bit. Enough to make a random "maze" (not actually consistent enough to really be called a maze) 04:00:37 zzo38: https://github.com/volundmush/mushcode 04:01:07 I don't understand half of what's going on here. 04:02:10 The u() function is important. 04:02:15 I'm helpful! 04:02:52 lmao. 04:02:58 The lines starting with &Q seem to contain SQL codes after the equal sign. 04:05:03 Other than that, I don't know. 04:07:06 [[Octo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71155&oldid=71094 * Apollyon094 * (-52) 04:07:59 "Let's look at the anatomy of a very simple command. 04:07:59 &cmd_hello #1234=$hello:@pemit %#=Hello, world!" 04:08:04 http://www.mushcode.com/File/Moes-Mushkode-Manual---Rules-of-Code--Beginning-Commands- 04:08:35 Sets an attribute on object #1234 called cmd_hello with those contents 04:09:47 [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71156&oldid=70811 * Apollyon094 * (+158) 04:09:57 Ah, OK. 04:12:47 This is an example of a ifMUD code: @print("Today is ",@let(1,@add(@switch(@time("mon"),0,-1,1,30,2,58,3,89,4,119,5,150,6,180,7,211,8,242,9,272,10,303,11,333),@time("mday")),@switch(@print(@time("mon"),"/",@time("mday")),"1/29","St. Tib's Day", @print(@switch(@mod("%1",5),0,"Sweetmorn",1,"Boomtime",2,"Pungenday",3,"Prickle-Prickle",4,"Setting Orange"),", ",@switch(@idiv("%1",73),0,"Chaos",1,"Discord",2,"Confusion",3,"Bureaucracy",4,"T 04:13:08 (That is a code I wrote.) 04:15:06 The @print() function actually does string concatenation; it doesn't actually print anything. 04:18:15 it's interesting that this is intended to fit on a single line. 04:18:30 MUCKcode looks a bit better by comparison. 04:23:20 MOOcode is so much cleaner. 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05:15:22 -!- clog has joined. 05:15:22 -!- myndzi has joined. 05:15:22 -!- sparr has joined. 05:15:22 -!- HackEso has joined. 05:15:22 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:15:22 -!- Banana51 has joined. 06:04:43 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:04:58 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:48:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:51:44 -!- spruit11 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 07:09:51 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:10:13 -!- quintopia has joined. 07:12:28 -!- spruit11 has joined. 07:21:01 -!- rain1 has joined. 07:22:53 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Frogstair * New user account 07:25:42 -!- rain1 has quit (Client Quit). 07:27:35 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71158&oldid=71124 * Frogstair * (+196) /* Introductions */ 07:32:18 [[User:Frogstair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71159 * Frogstair * (+2604) Created page with "frog stair ,,//,,*(/,,/(*,,//,,/(*,,//,,*(/,,//,,*(/,,/(*,,//,,/(*,,//,,*(/,,//,,*(/,,/(*,, ,,/(,,*(/,,/(*,,(/,,/(*,,//,,*@@%%%%@%*(/,,/(*,,(/,,/(*,,//,,*(/,,/(,,*(/,,/(*,,..." 07:33:14 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 07:33:15 [[User talk:Frogstair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71160 * Frogstair * (+4) Created page with "dont" 07:43:22 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71161&oldid=71152 * Frogstair * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */ 07:49:03 If I want to make a SVG file for use with Wikipedia or something like that, would it be suitable to use Ghostscript to produce a PDF and then use pdf2svg to convert it to SVG? 07:55:34 -!- craigo has joined. 08:37:35 [[4RL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71162 * Frogstair * (+1146) Created page with "4RL (pronounced "for real") is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Frogstair]] in April 2020, and is a breed of [[brainfuck]] The language can be compiled..." 08:54:58 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:56:42 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:45:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:46:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:47:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:11:29 tromp: Yeah I know I'm lagging far behind your efforts. 10:14:48 we should write a joint paper on this BB 10:28:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:39:56 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71163&oldid=71154 * Ais523 * (+658) /* Adding Underload numbers */ try to avoid making the page /too/ large 10:50:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:50:46 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 10:51:00 I'm adding 23 new instructions to asm2bf 10:51:10 I wonder when it'll be classified CISC 10:51:44 currently it has around 50 10:56:26 kspalaiologos: it's not really just the number of instructions that matters there. MMIX has tons of instructions, but it's a RISC because they don't have random side effects, parameters, and encodings, wired in to try to improve code density or speed 10:56:53 well, actually these instructions do improve density and speed 10:56:59 and some of them are quite peculliar 11:00:37 obviously all this can change as you add extensions. ARM used to be a nice simple RISC cpu, but they kept adding all sorts of extensions to optimize it, until it became what you might regard a CISC 11:01:15 whereas x86 started out as CISC, but with 64-bit mode banning some of the more crazy instructions, and adding tons of vector instructions with nice simple regular behavior, it's getting closer and closer to a RISC 11:01:52 actually nah 11:01:59 the total number of instructions is 69 11:02:26 off by 4 11:09:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:13:14 i'm still looking for ideas of what kind of stuff pack into asm2bf 11:13:19 in terms of instructions 11:13:30 I thought of floating point math (can microcode in brainfuck, no problem 11:14:22 kspalaiologos: have you written an interpreter that directly runs the bfasm code, so that we can get just rid of the annoying brainfuck layer once and for all? 11:14:54 theoretically, yes 11:15:00 that's also great to mask errors in the to-brainfuck compilation, but we don't need that 11:15:37 but the interpreter doesn't currently recognize 100% of the ISA as I'm still working on it 11:16:11 nice 11:16:18 that could be useful for bfbot 11:16:30 yep 11:16:39 but the source code's nost 11:16:41 *lost 11:16:50 because of hardware failure that I had 11:16:50 I mean the new new bfbot 11:16:56 yep 11:16:57 that's this one 11:17:18 I started again from scratch 11:17:29 extended the bfi to be able to print onto stderr using a custom instruction 11:17:36 stderr goes to shell, stdout goes to telnet 11:17:50 this way you can read files 11:17:57 and communicate with the IRC server 11:18:25 also, we've got a B to asm2bf compiler my friend made out of boredom 11:18:33 wait, you're writing bfbot in brainfuck? 11:18:36 it works quite well, but output quality is kinda garbage 11:18:36 yes 11:18:43 but... 11:18:47 how will it run brainfuck then? 11:18:56 interpreting brainfuck in brainfuck is hard 11:18:57 write a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck? 11:19:09 and how will it run asmbf? 11:19:11 or utilize the shell 11:19:22 call asm2bf, read the output 11:20:02 that sounds a weirder idea than fungot being written in befunge, or NotJack's J bot being written in J 11:20:02 b_jonas: i haven't really taken a tern for the worst 11:20:10 lol 11:20:12 true 11:20:28 but hey, it's esolangs, the weirder the better 11:20:29 J has easy access to evaluate J code, and fungot doesn't try to evaluate befunge 11:20:29 b_jonas: if so, you're saying ' worse is better"? i think i'll have to think about 11:20:41 ^ see 11:20:57 xD 11:21:12 love markov chains of fungot 11:21:12 kspalaiologos: am not. :) i'm in soft eng" that's called " bad coding" 11:22:59 also, I thought about a shell based on asm2bf 11:23:31 but that'd be annoying to use as hell 11:35:05 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 11:45:02 -!- tromp has joined. 11:47:03 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:47:29 -!- xelxebar has joined. 11:55:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:57:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 12:00:02 [[4RL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71164&oldid=71162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+155) cats, style, & it's not just BF 12:00:52 [[4RL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71165&oldid=71164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38) 12:08:11 [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71166&oldid=71133 * Willicoder * (+12) Change link to my repo because I changes the name of the repo. 12:08:16 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:12:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:17:52 [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71167&oldid=70989 * Voltage2007 * (+394) 12:25:23 There's actually a command to "evaluate" Befunge, but it just writes the line into the playfield and directs control flow there. It's an admin-only command for obvious reasons. And I don't think I've ever actually used it successfully. 12:26:38 There's at least two Befunge-93 self-interpreters (with smaller-than-standard playfields, of course) though. 12:27:09 And https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters lists six for Brainfuck. 12:33:16 fizzie: makes sense 12:34:34 you have to be careful with admin-only commands. there was a very old bot written in perl that had both normal commands and admin-only commands, so it would accept admin-only commands from the person who ran the bot (unless I could guess their password), and some of the admin-only commands could eval, 12:34:54 but then while reading the source, I noticed that one of the commands that obviously should have been admin-only wasn't marked admin only 12:35:07 I reported that so it got fixed 12:52:29 [[Deadfish~]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71168&oldid=66659 * Voltage2007 * (+6) 12:54:28 Look at my 6x6x6 Rubik's cube ;-) http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/6x6.jpg 13:02:35 [[Sunny morning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71169&oldid=69999 * Hakerh400 * (-30) /* References */ 13:06:33 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:10:56 [[Brainfuck extensions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71170&oldid=69812 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) 13:12:26 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71171&oldid=71166 * Willicoder * (+884) 13:12:53 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71172&oldid=71171 * Willicoder * (-12) /* Small Hello World */ 13:16:02 -!- atslash has joined. 13:17:06 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 13:31:41 [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71173&oldid=71172 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreters */ 13:37:35 [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71174&oldid=70532 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) /* Echo */ The original author seemed to have thought cat program is echo program. 13:54:03 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:58:45 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 14:00:29 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:21:42 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71175&oldid=71126 * Palaiologos * (+2626) conditional instructions 14:23:20 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71176&oldid=71175 * Palaiologos * (+502) B compiler 14:24:09 >41KB, wow, that's a big article 14:24:23 I think on somehow breaking it down, because currently it feels too big 14:25:18 [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71177&oldid=71176 * Palaiologos * (+4) uh-oh, forgot about closing the tags 14:25:55 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:26:08 `? timecube 14:26:12 timecube? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:26:14 `? time cube 14:26:16 EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools. 14:26:34 how many springs and summers are there? 14:28:04 what is this 14:28:05 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:29:18 `? lambda cube 14:29:19 lambda cube? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:29:26 kspalaiologos: look for time cube on wikipedia if you really want to know 14:29:33 it's an infamous website that is now defunct 14:29:49 it's much much longer than what fits into two wisdom entries, so these are just samples 14:29:52 `? gene ray 14:29:53 Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA. 14:30:00 that's the other wisdom that samples from i 14:30:06 lmao, okay 14:32:11 -!- orbitaldecay has joined. 14:51:44 `olist 1200 14:51:45 olist 1200: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 14:52:37 `thanks HackEso 14:52:37 Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso. 15:13:03 is there a method for drawing a sierpinski triangle without bitops that won't take a lot of space? 15:13:37 -!- SoniEx2 has changed nick to Soni. 15:15:28 kspalaiologos: I'm not sure your question is well-defined. care to elaborate? 15:15:51 there's a common method for drawing a sierpinski triangle that utilizes bitand (&) 15:16:04 I've been wondering is there any other algorithm that would utilize just basic arithmetic 15:16:11 and I think I may go with recursive approach 15:28:42 -!- imode has joined. 15:43:10 depends on how you define space, how you want the output to look like, etc 15:43:39 like, it has a very simple description as a Lindenmeyer system 15:43:44 Lindenmayer* apparently 15:44:11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Example_5:_Sierpinski_triangle 15:46:22 kspalaiologos: oh, another classic is deriving it from Pascal's triangle 15:49:46 I've got a neat algorithm already 15:49:48 now I'm implementing it 15:51:35 [ binview (1,1,~ 2| }:+}.)^:(<16) 1 15:51:35 FireFly: ⣗⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ 15:51:36 FireFly: ⣗⣄⣗⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 15:51:36 FireFly: ⣗⣄⠀⠀⣗⣄⠀⠀ 15:51:36 FireFly: ⣗⣄⣗⣄⣗⣄⣗⣄ 15:51:39 whee 15:52:19 nice 15:56:37 leaning left 15:56:38 [ (~:_1&|.)^:(<20) 0=i.20 NB. FireFly: or like this 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:39 b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:40 b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15:56:40 b_jonas: ... 16:02:36 > [[if (x .&. (y-x)) == 0 then 'x' else ' ' | x <- [0..y]] | y <- [0..]] 16:02:39 ["x","xx","x x","xxxx","x x","xx xx","x x x x","xxxxxxxx","x x","xx... 16:03:14 * int-e wonders which bit trick b_jonas' code uses 16:15:56 b_jonas: well yeah, fair, you can express it that way too 16:16:31 I should've used ~: instead of (2|+) 16:27:31 [[Minimal operation language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71178&oldid=70677 * Hakerh400 * (+45) Dead link 16:30:43 i am way too confused about .&. 16:31:59 [ (,.&0,,.~)^:4,1 NB. FireFly: or you could use this comma-heavy thing 16:31:59 b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:31:59 b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:31:59 b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:31:59 b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:31:59 b_jonas: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:32:00 b_jonas: 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:32:00 b_jonas: 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:32:01 b_jonas: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16:32:01 b_jonas: ... 16:33:16 is there an unicode character corresponding to a printable ASCII sequence? 16:33:53 [ ([:{&' .'':'_2:#.&.|:\0&<) (,.&0,,.~)^:4,1 16:33:54 b_jonas: :. 16:33:54 b_jonas: :.:. 16:33:54 b_jonas: :. :. 16:33:54 b_jonas: :.:.:.:. 16:33:54 b_jonas: :. :. 16:33:54 b_jonas: :.:. :.:. 16:33:54 b_jonas: :. :. :. :. 16:33:55 b_jonas: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. 16:34:09 kspalaiologos: I don't understand your question 16:34:23 so imagine you have an unicode character 16:34:28 the unicode character has it's codepoint 16:34:37 that is, representation in form of a sequence of bytes 16:34:56 for instance, ▲, corresponds to E2 96 B2 16:35:10 [ (,.&' ',,.~)^:4,:':.' NB. perhaps better 16:35:10 b_jonas: :. 16:35:10 b_jonas: :.:. 16:35:10 b_jonas: :. :. 16:35:11 b_jonas: :.:.:.:. 16:35:15 b_jonas: :. :. 16:35:19 b_jonas: :.:. :.:. 16:35:19 b_jonas: :. :. :. :. 16:35:23 b_jonas: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. 16:35:23 b_jonas: ... 16:35:35 kspalaiologos: do you mean UTF-8 16:35:39 possibly 16:35:46 now, I want to find an unicode character, whose codepoint has it's code point, that when interpreted as ASCII will be printable 16:35:59 UTF-8 is designed to not overlap with ASCII 16:36:06 Err 16:36:16 meh, bad news 16:36:18 kspalaiologos: how about 'b' 16:36:24 It overlaps with ASCII, but it maps ASCII to the first 128 Unicdoe points. 16:36:51 b is fine, but it's too small 16:36:58 all ASCII characters when encoded in UTF-8 are printable (as themselves) 16:37:02 So it extends ASCII. 16:37:03 I mean, it's codepoint value is too small 16:37:10 I'm confused too.. 16:37:25 kspalaiologos: The answer is no. 16:37:26 kspalaiologos: why is disambiguity bad? 16:37:28 so all in all, there's no printable ASCII sequence that's a single valid codepoint for UTF8? 16:37:30 (well, er, all *printable* ASCII characters specifically :p) 16:37:43 kspalaiologos: no because ascii is a subset of utf-8 16:37:46 There's a UTF-7 though. No clue how it works. 16:37:49 alright 16:37:52 that's what I wanted to know 16:37:54 thanks 16:38:12 i still don't get why this should be bad 16:38:17 this is actually very good 16:38:25 int-e: wait, there is? I know of UTF-9 and UTF-18, don't remember if I've seen UTF-7... 16:38:52 oh hm.. email thing 16:39:35 it is good 16:39:42 but I'm trying to golf a certain thing :P 16:39:54 FireFly: Yeah by the looks of it it's basically unused. 16:40:17 kspalaiologos: use a different ball. 16:40:35 * FireFly . o O ( different (type)ball ) 16:40:56 int-e: *nod*, which makes for fun tech history trivia though :p 16:41:39 UTF-7 was probably designed so that you can punch unicode onto a 7-row paper tape in a way that's reasonably transparent, i.e. you can still read and write most of the ASCII subset straightforwardly 16:41:52 and other non-8-bit-clean transport methods 16:41:57 7 bit serial lines 16:42:08 b_jonas: yes, specifically SMTP apparently 16:42:17 (which I didn't realise apparently wasn't guaranteed to be 8-bit clean) 16:42:49 FireFly: Too modern. Stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory is much more interesting :) 16:43:58 hehe 16:44:00 FireFly: in theory you could use it in MIME email headers and bodies, but I think nobody uses UTF-7 there, 16:44:23 yeah, I think it's just quoted-printable in practice.. 16:44:26 instead people use two other encoding methods: the quoted-printable thing that puts two hexits after an equals sign, and, in bodies only, some sort of base-64 encoding 16:44:42 *nod* 16:45:17 The worst encoding is probably the IDN one. 16:45:31 (turns out, reading the Wikipedia article, that UTF-7 actually essentially base64's individual codepoints outside a specific set (and annotates the base64'd part with delimiters)) 16:45:32 (For Unicode) 16:45:49 IDN as in punycode? 16:46:16 it's.. certainly a fascinating way to encode non-ASCII codepoints 16:47:36 Ah, Punycode. Yes, indeed. 17:11:31 TIL apple released a pair of tyres / wheels for Mac Pro for $700 17:11:45 allowing transition from Mac Pro to a $10k racecar 17:17:34 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:04:04 I downloaded the new rules for Magic: the Gathering. 18:04:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:18 [[Special:Log/move]] move * LegionMammal978 * moved [[Emotebatch]] to [[EmoteBatch]]: fix capitalization 18:18:15 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71181&oldid=71150 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-2) /* Metatape */ 18:18:43 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:33:05 -!- user24 has joined. 18:33:41 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71182&oldid=71178 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-32) /* Resources */ template add 18:34:55 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71183&oldid=71163 * CatIsFluffy * (+100) /* Adding Underload numbers */ 18:37:31 [[Underload/Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71184&oldid=71153 * CatIsFluffy * (+20739) Even more numbers 18:40:57 [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71185&oldid=71157 * Apollyon094 * (+328) 18:42:23 [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71186&oldid=71185 * Apollyon094 * (+56) 18:43:54 [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71187&oldid=71186 * Apollyon094 * (+62) 18:45:24 [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71188&oldid=71187 * Apollyon094 * (-76) 18:51:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:04:57 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 19:05:05 Is "GODSPEED" in the newest Scrabble dictionary? It is a word my opponent once wanted to play, although it isn't in the dictionary we were using (the third edition), so it isn't allowed. 19:08:35 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:10:22 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8). 19:10:38 -!- imode has joined. 19:26:03 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71189&oldid=71136 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Misc */ 20:06:15 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:27:11 [[Procedure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71190&oldid=70553 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1936) Documentation + SeeAlso 20:28:24 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71191&oldid=71161 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* P */ add pure 20:31:42 [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71192&oldid=71190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) 20:32:12 [[Procedure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71193&oldid=71192 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) 20:48:32 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 20:55:13 [[Nairb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71194&oldid=63954 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 21:22:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:28:23 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:29:20 -!- xelxebar has joined. 21:40:18 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in). 21:40:37 -!- nchambers has joined. 21:48:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:48:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:51:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:02:13 -!- LBPHacker has left ("Leaving"). 22:03:02 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:23:35 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:25:16 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:34:41 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:38:34 int-e: just completed all TODOs for 35. last one was toughest:) 22:39:03 i mean the (\1 1) (\1 (\\1 (2 1)) 1) one 22:39:30 should now be able to add BB(35) to OEIS with some confidence 22:41:27 let's run BB 36 and see where it crashes 22:45:07 strangely it seems to hang without increasing memuse 22:55:17 oh, it's on term (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\2 (2 1)))) 22:55:36 which, if i'm correct is 2^256 :-( 23:31:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 2020-04-18: 00:27:12 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:29:01 -!- sprocklem has joined. 00:40:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:41:05 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:28:17 -!- craigo has joined. 01:54:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:04:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:11:57 I made this programming language http://sprunge.us/5jA9Q3 it isn't completed yet, though. Please make a comment of it 02:14:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:24:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:26:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:32:11 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71195&oldid=71173 * Watermelon3D * (-4865) 03:18:57 -!- Elderberry has joined. 03:19:33 Anyone online? 03:24:27 I am on, today. 03:26:56 -!- Elderberry has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:35:37 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71196&oldid=71195 * Watermelon3D * (-589) /* Commands */ 04:14:15 -!- ArthurStrong has left. 04:39:29 I think the reason sometimes my computer uses more RAM that it should is something to do with graphics, since it increases when loading a PDF even after the program to view the PDF is terminated. 04:45:41 one thing I've seen a couple times is memory fragmentation in graphics areas 04:46:24 well, not graphics, per se, but X, which is in charge of graphics 04:48:23 Terminating and restarting X did not seem to help the last time I tried that 05:29:53 I don't like the common convention of writing the stack effect used in PostScript, and I think the convention of Forth is better, so I use the Forth convention even when writing programs in PostScript, too. 06:22:48 -!- user24 has joined. 07:06:08 I wish simpler languages like Forth had become mainstream vs. what we have now. 07:06:18 have had trouble even picking a language to write services in. 07:28:32 You could write a program in Forth, if you want to do, I think. 07:35:48 But Forth is a very odd word processor. 07:46:24 int-e: wow, was able to complete BB(36) search! 07:46:44 (36,1441774,(\1 1) (\1 (\\2 (2 1)) 1)) 07:47:15 so that Church 2^256 is BB(36) 07:48:02 assuming all TODOs are loops 08:20:51 [[User:LyricLy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71197&oldid=52451 * LyricLy * (-1) 08:54:02 -!- probablymoony has changed nick to noomy. 09:08:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:15:04 BB 37 run doesn't do so well, seems to explode in mem even without troublesome terms 09:15:36 better work on proving BB(36) 09:28:33 -!- shachaf has joined. 09:34:23 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 09:46:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:49:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:49:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:11:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:21:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:21:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:26:06 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:30:57 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 11:08:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:12:29 [[Seclusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71198&oldid=67003 * Hakerh400 * (-84) Remove references template 11:33:38 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:46:29 [[Talk:2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71199&oldid=68664 * YamTokTpaFa * (+689) 11:55:45 [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71200&oldid=66203 * YamTokTpaFa * (+200) 12:13:53 -!- Soni has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 12:27:15 `? thunk 12:27:17 thunk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:30:32 [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71201&oldid=69533 * YamTokTpaFa * (+17) /* Perl interpreter */ nowiki-tagged two quotation marks to prevent them from getting treated as beginning of italic. 12:32:52 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:35:22 -!- craigo has joined. 13:03:28 [[Talk:FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71202&oldid=71129 * Willicoder * (+196) 13:06:17 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:06:34 what has happened to gitlogger 13:06:51 it died 2020-04-14 04:29:14 13:07:29 -!- gitlogger has joined. 13:07:33 there we go 13:07:41 it's been offline for four days, no idea what has happened 13:08:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:37:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:47:35 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 14:13:04 just realized that 0^0 = 1 also holds in Church numerals 14:14:19 kspalaiologos: once upon a time, the Event happened. A few it was noticed by, and by none was it been known that the noble gitlogger had been knocked out flat by it, and that it was its sole effect 14:14:23 tromp: wow 14:14:48 arseniiv, lol 14:18:31 > gitlogger has quit (*.net *.split). 14:18:33 :1:36: error: 14:18:33 parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) 14:20:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:42:04 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:02:39 -!- batman_nair has joined. 15:03:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 15:04:04 -!- batman_nair has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:04:51 -!- batman_nair has joined. 15:05:39 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:05:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:05:55 -!- user24 has joined. 15:08:14 -!- user24 has quit (Client Quit). 15:20:36 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 15:21:22 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:32:14 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:32:48 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 15:58:16 [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71203&oldid=71196 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+591) /* Commands */ 16:00:25 [[FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71204&oldid=71203 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* Commands */ Fixed commands (nowiki tag) 16:02:44 [[Talk:FishScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71205&oldid=71202 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+252) 16:04:29 I managed to squash the sierpinski program and hunt down some bugs 16:04:45 currently it's down to 219 bytes, relying on some compiler voodoo 16:04:51 @a/clrr2/@b/pshr1/movr4,r2/@c/movr5,r1/modr5,2/movr6,r4/modr6,2/mulr5,r6/cger5,1/cmor5,1/cjn%d/asrr1/asrr4/jnzr1,%c/jnzr4,%c/clrr3/@d/cger3,1/movr3,42/cmor3,32/outr3/popr1/incr2/cger2,64/cjz%b/out10/incr1/cger1,64/cjz%a 16:04:52 Unknown command, try @list 16:12:34 [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71206&oldid=71149 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Syntax */ 16:13:09 [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71207&oldid=71206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-35) /* Truth-machine */ 16:20:53 [[HGFTSNOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71208&oldid=70472 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Either */ 16:24:53 [[Asm2bf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71209&oldid=71177 * Palaiologos * (+202) v1.3.6 release notes 16:31:34 [[Classical CT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71210&oldid=55693 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) fix your assignment 16:31:56 [[Classical CT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71211&oldid=71210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 16:37:23 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71212&oldid=71209 * Palaiologos * (+14) lowercase template 16:40:21 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71213&oldid=71212 * Palaiologos * (+23) Add the low-level tag 16:55:37 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71214&oldid=71182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Syntax */ 17:01:14 -!- batman_nair has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:02:47 -!- batman_nair has joined. 17:05:00 [[FishScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71215&oldid=71204 * Willicoder * (+9) 17:11:54 [[`]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71216&oldid=67531 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Hello, world! */ fixed 17:12:49 -!- Soni has joined. 17:13:00 [[`]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71217&oldid=71216 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) fix headings 17:16:02 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:20:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:24:10 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 17:24:47 -!- imode has joined. 17:29:15 -!- batman_nair has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:42:59 -!- batman_nair has joined. 17:48:38 -!- batman_nair has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:10:22 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+103) Created page with "

ABCDEFG

Hello, World!

==Hello, World!== " 18:10:47 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71219&oldid=71218 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "wikitext" to "plain text" 18:10:47 [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PythonshellDebugwindow * PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "wikitext" to "plain text" 18:11:18 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71220&oldid=71219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-59) 18:11:28 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71221&oldid=71220 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "plain text" to "JSON" 18:11:28 [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PythonshellDebugwindow * PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "plain text" to "JSON" 18:12:38 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71222&oldid=71221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+90) 18:14:36 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71223&oldid=71135 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+59) 18:15:09 [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71224&oldid=71207 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) 18:21:52 [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71225&oldid=71224 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+152) /* Interpreter test cases */ 18:22:23 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:34:09 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:44:28 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 19:02:22 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:23:01 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:23:37 -!- erdic has joined. 19:44:35 "The result of mounting a file system nosuid varies across Linux kernel versions: some will refuse execution of set-user-ID and set-group-ID executables when this would give the user powers she did not have already (and return EPERM), some will just ignore the set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits and exec() successfully." 19:45:49 I think that if the user does not have permission to read the file, and nosuid is used, then executing files with set-user-ID and set-group-ID should also be prohibited. 19:47:37 Also, they didn't tell you what version of Linux will have what effect. 19:48:28 zzo38: there is a mount flag noexec though if you want to just deny executing anything on the fs 19:51:53 OK, that makes sense, although it should also make sense to me that if it is with nosuid even though the set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits are set, then it should also refuse execution if the user does not have permission to read the file, unless those bits would correspond to the current user and group anyways, in which case it would still be allowed. Since, otherwise, it would allow the user to do something which is otherwise prohibi 19:55:27 zzo38: sure, but we can't change that in old kernel versions so you have to know about the behavior 19:57:58 Yes, althought hey should mention what versions, rather than merely saying it varies across Linux kernel versions. 20:06:39 [ (,.&' ',,.~)^:4,:':.' 20:06:40 spruit11: :. 20:06:40 spruit11: :.:. 20:06:40 spruit11: :. :. 20:06:40 spruit11: :.:.:.:. 20:06:40 spruit11: :. :. 20:06:40 spruit11: :.:. :.:. 20:06:40 spruit11: :. :. :. :. 20:06:41 spruit11: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. 20:06:41 spruit11: ... 20:07:10 [ (,.&' ',,.~)^:5,:':.' 20:07:11 spruit11: :. 20:07:11 spruit11: :.:. 20:07:11 spruit11: :. :. 20:07:11 spruit11: :.:.:.:. 20:07:11 spruit11: :. :. 20:07:12 spruit11: :.:. :.:. 20:07:12 spruit11: :. :. :. :. 20:07:13 spruit11: :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. 20:07:13 spruit11: ... 20:16:21 [ $ ,: ':.' 20:16:22 FireFly: 1 2 20:16:27 ah right 20:40:16 [[Strvar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71226&oldid=71225 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) /* Resources */ 21:35:11 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:41:36 -!- heroux has joined. 21:46:33 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:49:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:49:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:40:19 -!- Umbrage has joined. 23:40:27 Hello? 23:40:34 This is my first time here. 23:41:08 !help 23:41:39 OK, what is it you wanted, then? 23:42:02 I came here to see if anybody wanted to discuss esolangs. 23:42:22 OK, do you have specific questions or other comments about it? 23:42:45 I'm developing an esolang. 23:42:56 cool 23:43:01 what's your main source of inspiration? 23:43:12 Cellular automata. 23:43:51 Do you have any further details? 23:44:00 Yes, I do. 23:44:06 The compiler is finished. 23:44:42 OK 23:45:16 Here's the pastebin of the compilation if you are interested: 23:45:20 https://pastebin.com/Nc8NGSbK 23:46:34 Do you want to hear more? 23:47:14 Yes, OK 23:49:15 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:50:30 `welcome Umbrage 23:50:32 Umbrage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 23:53:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:56:00 Okay, here we go. 23:56:16 So basically, the code starts out disguised as brainFuck 23:56:21 it's not brainfuck though 23:56:32 It's really binary. 23:56:55 so if the program was ][, in binary it would be 100101 23:57:29 Then, I run it though an elementary cellular automata with rule 90 (A XOR C) 23:58:18 If the XOR operation accesses a cell with a value below 0, it returns a truthy value. 23:58:48 If the XOR operation accesses a cell with a value greater than or equal to the number of cells, it returns a falsy value. 23:59:39 After an equal number of iterations of the elementary cellular automata to the number of bits in the binary, it stops, and saves the binary. 23:59:48 Then, it converts it to code and runs it. 23:59:51 Simple. 2020-04-19: 00:00:35 OK 00:00:49 O.K. 00:01:23 For simplicity, XOR is [ A NAND ( A NAND B ) ] NAND 00:01:33 NAND logic and all that. 00:01:46 I think it's turing complete. 00:02:07 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:02:17 I can prove turing completeness for half of all computable problems, but I don't have a proof of the others. 00:02:47 Specifically, problems with odd numbers of instructions are the issue. 00:02:54 Any ideas on how to prove it? 00:04:04 -!- Umbrage has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:58 -!- heroux has joined. 01:04:25 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:10:47 -!- heroux has joined. 01:16:50 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:22:35 -!- heroux has joined. 02:01:14 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 02:15:46 -!- craigo has joined. 02:30:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:31:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 02:51:12 Why is the Adobe font metric format not like a PostScript format? I think the TeX font format is better. Some people say that METAFONT doesn't do outline fonts or hinting, but actually it does both. The mainly problem with TeX fornat is the limits, and the kerning/ligature programs can't look ahead more than one character, but the Adobe format seems to be similarly limited from what I can see. 02:52:13 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 03:05:22 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:09:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:28:50 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:58:53 This is the Magic: the Gathering major template for TeXnicard so far: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/dir?ci=tip&name=templates/magic Do you have any comments/complaints of it please? 05:52:14 -!- tromp has joined. 05:56:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:13:31 -!- tswett[m] has quit (*.net *.split). 06:13:31 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 06:15:22 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 06:15:22 -!- APic has joined. 06:19:11 -!- batman_nair has joined. 06:21:11 -!- batman_nair has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:41:49 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71227&oldid=71181 * YamTokTpaFa * (+112) /* Pxem */ 06:46:44 -!- tromp has joined. 06:51:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:10:27 -!- tromp has joined. 07:36:47 -!- user24 has joined. 08:03:02 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:25:41 [[Functasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71228&oldid=65706 * Hakerh400 * (+7289) Add better highlighting 08:31:50 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:38:21 -!- heroux has joined. 09:01:15 [[Ral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71229&oldid=68419 * Herman-L * (+1436) 09:02:25 -!- batman_nair has joined. 09:28:43 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:29:34 -!- heroux has joined. 09:37:30 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:45:01 -!- heroux has joined. 09:48:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:50:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:00:27 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71230&oldid=71119 * RocketRace * (+2291) Document GROUP 10:03:16 [[User talk:RocketRace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71231&oldid=71105 * RocketRace * (+161) 10:03:25 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 10:03:35 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:16:13 -!- batman_nair has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:16:19 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:31:47 -!- mra90 has left ("Leaving"). 10:54:00 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71232&oldid=71230 * RocketRace * (+4447) Document LEVEL and IMAGE 10:57:00 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71233&oldid=71232 * RocketRace * (+225) Document EMPTY 10:57:53 Hah @xkcd. 10:58:24 . o O ( So... statistics is the art of refining garbage into something resembling reliable data. ) 10:58:27 `? statistics 10:58:30 statistics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:01:21 hi 11:05:05 `lear Statistics is the art of refining garbage into data. 11:05:08 lear? No such file or directory 11:05:08 `learn Statistics is the art of refining garbage into data. 11:05:14 Learned 'statistic': Statistics is the art of refining garbage into data. 11:05:25 (I think it's passable. Feel free to improve.) 11:05:39 Or would that be s/improve/refine/ ;-) 11:12:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:23:27 fungot, what kind of video games do you play? 11:23:27 b_jonas: are any of you have a copy? 11:23:34 fungot: a copy of what? 11:23:35 b_jonas: to, even. doesn't that count for something. 11:25:41 fungot: it it's even it may be two. 11:25:41 int-e: that's just wrong. 11:25:52 fungot: I'm sorry you think that. 11:25:52 int-e: that only accepts a bf interpreter that takes i/ o 11:32:37 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:01:14 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71234&oldid=71233 * RocketRace * (+8156) Document the entire god damn runtime 12:07:35 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71235&oldid=71234 * RocketRace * (+8199) Add examples (oh no......) 12:09:02 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71236&oldid=71191 * RocketRace * (+15) Add Babalang 12:12:15 [[Babalang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71237&oldid=71235 * RocketRace * (+100) Categorize the page 12:12:52 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71238&oldid=71237 * RocketRace * (-8) Change wording in description 12:13:10 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71239&oldid=71238 * RocketRace * (-4) Fix broken link 12:33:52 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71240&oldid=71222 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) 13:00:26 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:26:49 [[Welcome To...]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2108) Work in progress 13:38:51 -!- heroux has joined. 13:53:37 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:54:06 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:54:11 -!- heroux has joined. 14:58:03 -!- Elderberry has joined. 14:58:17 Anyone online? 14:59:38 yeah 14:59:55 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:42:09 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:39 -!- Cale has joined. 16:04:34 [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71242&oldid=71148 * Willicoder * (+265) 16:08:04 -!- Elderberry has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:33 [[Functasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71243&oldid=71228 * Hakerh400 * (+25) Fix typo in the code 16:27:13 -!- imode has joined. 16:38:06 -!- rain1 has joined. 16:55:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:56:21 for everyone who doesn't know how UTF-7 works: all of ASCII encodes itself apart from the "+" character, which is encoded in UTF-7 as "+-" 16:56:28 and then sequences starting with + are used for non-ASCII characters 16:57:22 Thanks for the Explanation! 16:57:23 I'm not 100% sure on the encoding after the +, but if I'm remembering correctly, it's just UTF-16 written in hexadecimal 16:57:47 (terminated by - if the next character is a hexadecimal character or -, or with no explicit terminator if it's outside the hexadecimal range) 16:58:27 that sounds really inefficient 16:58:37 that's probably why it didn't catch on 16:59:17 the main design goal appears to have been that a recipient could guess what it meant even if they didn't know the format, but that possibly isn't a useful design goal 17:00:13 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:00:42 ah no, it isn't hexadecimal, it must be something more efficient than that 17:00:48 maybe base64'd utf-16? 17:01:03 I just encoded a BOM into utf-7, it encoded as +/v8- 17:01:21 it's a base64 variant wedeged between + and -. 17:01:21 `` echo '/v8' | base64 -d | od -t x1z 17:01:23 base64: invalid input \ 0000000 fe ff >..< \ 0000002 17:01:29 yes, that looks like base64 to me 17:01:48 (With the +- exception that maps to + as you said) 17:02:13 base64 is still a bit inefficient but it isn't as inefficient as base16 17:02:55 now I wonder how many editors will interpret files as UTF-7 if they start +/v8 followed by - or a non-base-64 character 17:02:59 probably not many 17:03:29 'Older versions of Internet Explorer can be tricked into interpreting the page as UTF-7. This can be used for a cross-site scripting attack as the < and > marks can be encoded as +ADw- and +AD4- in UTF-7, which most validators let through as simple text.' 17:03:42 So it did have serious applications :P 17:03:58 oh right, IE 17:04:08 I seem to remember someone managing an XSS attack against the #esoteric logs 17:04:17 because IE was so permissive with encodings and MIME types 17:04:44 And yes, it stacks on top of UTF-16. What a mess. 17:05:56 I still think that, in a way, it's a pity that UTF-1 didn't catch on 17:06:32 the rise of UTF-8 caused serious standards incompatibility problems, because UTF-8 uses C1 control codes for purposes other than their assigned meanings 17:07:28 although, given that a C1 control code cannot appear in UTF-8 except immediately after a G1 character, this ambiguity should be fixable, but nobody I know of but me actually tries to fix it 17:09:19 I guess part of the problem is that many of the C1 control codes are kind-of silly 17:11:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:31:01 -!- tromp has joined. 17:33:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:33:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:35:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:01:35 oh nice. that's like the XSS attacks when a browser guesses that something is HTML even though the HTTP response header Content-Type says text/plain 18:12:33 This encoding is a bit inefficient but it seems OK. 18:12:43 The one that I don't get is Punycode. What's with that? It seems so complicated. 18:16:39 Yeah, Punycode is pretty awful. It seems to be designed for a language like German where words are mostly ASCII with maybe one or two non-ASCII characters. 18:17:29 "Punycode is a simple and efficient transfer encoding syntax [...]" 18:17:30 But even so, it seems completely unreadable by humans. 18:17:59 unreadable by humans, annoying to implement.. 18:18:07 I don't agree with this use of the word "simple". 18:18:52 `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["aaa", "aaaλ", "aaaaλ", "aaaλbbb"]])' 18:18:53 ​['aaa-', 'aaa-3ga8g', 'aaaa-tia7i', 'aaabbb-5la5m'] 18:19:11 thunycode 18:19:25 shachaf: Well one can kind of guess what "Mnchen-3ya" stands for. 18:19:41 But not by knowing anything about the string "3ya"! 18:19:53 Sure. 18:19:56 Welcome back btw. 18:20:10 You might as well write "M�nchen". 18:20:33 (Except it doesn't even tell you where the replacement character is.) 18:20:44 You might not have to implement Punycode, at least. 18:20:54 I'm probably only sort of back? Hard to say. 18:21:09 How do you meant only sort of back? 18:21:12 The only good thing about punycode is that you generally don't see it in encoded form. 18:22:27 How about this Punycode replacement: You write "m-nchen--fc.com" for "münchen.com". 18:23:17 Each code point above 127 and - gets encoded as a -, and then they're listen in order in hexadecimal after the -- 18:23:22 That's probably not very good. 18:23:29 Too verbose. 18:23:57 `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["привет"]])' 18:23:58 It helps since you can write domain names purely in the ASCII form. You can disable non-ASCII domain names and then it will still work, and avoid the homoglyph problems and missing fonts and so on, too. 18:23:58 ​['ae7lman4b1hcbbfh'] 18:25:11 However, I should think they should not have needed support for domain names containing any characters not already valid in domain names anyways 18:26:26 shachaf: I guess there's one advantage to punycode that's easy to miss: some character set restrictions (like domain names not containing dots) can be enforced on punycode encoded strings without decoding them 18:26:47 But overall it doesn't seem very nice. 18:27:08 How does that work? 18:28:21 the . would become part of the unencoded base character sequence before the final minus sign 18:30:08 (This is assuming that base characters can't be encoded in the final encoded part, which I believe is the case.) 18:30:25 So you mean it doesn't have an equivalent of overlong encodings of ASCII characters. 18:30:33 Right. 18:30:42 -!- tromp has joined. 18:31:18 But you can still have encoding errors, right? Overlong encodings are already an error in UTF-8. 18:32:50 I suppose so 18:32:54 -!- tromp_ has joined. 18:33:12 But I don't know for sure. 18:33:28 (I'm not interested enough to check this in detail.) 18:34:17 I'm now reading about how Punycode actually works and it's kind of ridiculous. 18:34:30 `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["München"]])' 18:34:31 ​['Mnchen-bma9c'] 18:36:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:37:22 It is kind of neat if you like arithmetic coding. 18:37:26 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Stub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) Created page with "Leave this page as a stub." 18:38:07 I guess it's pretty efficient, at least. 18:38:31 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71245&oldid=70695 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+228) 18:43:24 [[A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71246&oldid=68569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+153) /* External links */ 18:43:29 `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["bücher"]])' 18:43:30 ​['bcher-lka2c'] 18:43:45 What' going on there? Is it normalizing the Unicode into two characters before encoding or something? 18:44:04 `` python -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["bücher"]])' 18:44:06 ​['bucher-xba75c'] 18:44:22 [[Ellipsis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71247&oldid=63411 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+76) cats 18:44:43 Oh, of course it's not. 18:45:16 Oh, it's a Python 2 thing, isn't it. 18:45:35 `` py 18:45:36 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: py: command not found 18:45:41 `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in [u"bücher"]])' 18:45:42 ​[b'bcher-kva'] 18:47:10 `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["ü"]])' 18:47:11 ​[b'tda'] 18:47:25 okay I don’t get punycode at all 18:47:53 > foldr (\x y -> x + y * 36) 0 $ map (\d -> fromJust $ elemIndex d (['a'..'z'] ++ ['0'..'9'])) "tda" 18:47:55 127 18:48:06 ah, and I think I first thought that’s the same as what urlencode does 18:48:41 `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["ü"]])' 18:48:42 ​[b'u-ccb'] 18:49:18 > text [chr (127 + 125)] 18:49:20 ü 18:49:49 ah, so it seeingly first prefixes all ASCII codepoints from the string, if any, and then base-something-encoded string in full 18:50:01 though I might have read about it already somewhere 18:50:50 `` python3 -c 'print([s.encode("punycode") for s in ["aμb⚁cъd"]])' 18:50:51 ​[b'abcd-lnd86f056o'] 18:52:03 It encodes the code points and positions in base 36. 18:56:36 ah, now I have read a part of discussion above too :D should have done that earlier 19:06:59 ais523: also that's why we don't allow overlong encodings in UTF-8 19:24:41 For some applications, overlong encodings in UTF-8 is useful 19:25:41 Exploiting buggy software, for instance? 19:29:37 Maybe, although that isn't what I meant. 19:52:01 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:04:18 -!- tromp has joined. 20:06:15 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:07:42 [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71248&oldid=59315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* FizzBuzz */ add link 20:08:29 [[User:Hakerh400]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71249&oldid=70998 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Reorder sections 20:11:17 b_jonas: I think encoding NUL as 00 in UTF-8 was a mistake 20:11:33 ais523: why? 20:11:42 I would prefer an encoding of C0 80, to allow an "out-of-band" string termination character 20:12:12 In some applications you can use C0 80 to encode a null character in a UTF-8 string, to use 00 as a string termination. But in other cases you don't do that. 20:12:43 ais523: you can always define a custom escaping transform, that should be independent of the encoding itself. you can even use 0x80 or 0x81 20:13:26 ais523: I don't usually trust that strings that claim to be utf-8 are really valid utf-8 anyway, so I wouldn't trust that they don't have a 0x00 or 0x80 or whatever 20:13:38 b_jonas: I would also prefer that C1 control codes are encoded as themselves, but that's more controversial (the encoding is still self-synchronizing but to a lesser extent) 20:14:26 Maybe programs I write I design to use ASCII and not Unicode, anyways 20:15:45 hmm, that reminds me, I came up with a binary format that has similar purposes to JSON, in which all strings encoded themselves (in UTF-8), and all nonstrings used invalid UTF-8 sequences 20:16:17 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 20:19:24 Can you encode surrogates if needed? 20:19:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:19:46 (You might need it if the data isn't Unicode, for example.) 20:21:10 And then, what about characters beyond the range of Unicode? 20:22:36 Do you have the documentation for your format? 20:23:26 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:24:29 zzo38: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/gsap.txt 20:25:45 I think out-of-range characters and surrogates can be encoded in the format, but the format is meant to disallow them because strings are meant to be Unicode only 20:26:01 if you have a string of character-like things that is not Unicode, it should probably be stored as an array of bytes 20:27:25 also I think there's a missing " in the example near the start 20:27:28 I haven't looked at this file for ages 20:31:12 I do not see anything about byte arrays; also, it doesn't seems to be able to use lists of exactly one element when dynamic types are used, from what I can tell. 20:31:56 a list of one element is equivalent to the element itself 20:32:06 and a byte array would be represented as a nonliteral containing the bytes as arguments 20:32:19 e.g. (bytes 2 12 255 0 255) 20:32:39 this is intended for use with schemas / strong typing, so you can always distinguish a singleton list from an element 20:32:54 Yes, that is what I thought about a list of one element, but if a distinction is needed between lists and non-lists then that won't work when dynamic types are used. 20:33:37 It says the format can be either statically or dynamically typed. With static types what you say will work, for the reason you mention, but that won't work so well for dynamic types, I think. 20:34:48 well, there are two ways to think about dynamic typing 20:35:16 IMO in a dynamically typed language, you should just treat the data as whatever type you're expecting it to have, and not care about what type it actually has 20:35:26 Also, the byte arrays done in the way like you mention does not seem to be efficient. 20:37:07 ais523: that's perl typing or dwim scalars 20:37:53 zzo38: yes, but this is a very uncommon use case 20:38:17 b_jonas: yes, it's the only sensible way to do dynamic typing I think 20:38:22 the other method is to write programs sort of like in a strongly typed language, except you omit some enum constructors in favor of storing multiple types and checking for them, mostly with a nul type versus other types, or an array versus a number 20:38:36 and I prefer that style 20:38:41 well, that and stringly typing, where everything is stored as a string (or else in some format that isn't a string but acts like one) 20:38:54 yes, there's that too 20:39:09 b_jonas: I think that style is kind-of terrible unless you have a huge supply of enum constructors that can just be used anywhere 20:39:19 and do in fact use them everywhere 20:39:39 "this function takes a string or an integer" is horrible in terms of self-documentation, and can't easily be modified into taking a string or a different type of string 20:40:14 For storing structured data which does not need to be parsed into other data structures after it is read, I like the format http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/PostScript_binary_object_format but it has the disadvantage that, unlike your format, it does not support streaming writing, and will require two passes to write. 20:41:02 ais523: what do you call the kind of typing that x86 machine language or forth does, which isn't dynamic typing because there are no type tags in data, but also no type information at compile time? 20:41:41 b_jonas: "everything is just bits" 20:41:46 I'm not sure if it has a proper name beyond that 20:42:25 hmm, actually I think this conversation has helped me clarify my understanding: type tags in data that just store the type rather than the meaning are about as useful as Hungarian notation that just stores the type rather than the meaning 20:42:59 occasionally it helps, but only in programs where each type can only have one possible meaning, which is rare 20:43:20 Another format is RELOAD, which also supports efficient byte arrays like PostScript does, but that is with another different use. In RELOAD, all names are indicated by numbers, and which names correspond to which numbers is listed at the end. Although it requires parsing, it allows a program to write out using its own numbers, while when reading it can efficiently create a table mapping the file's numbers to its internal numbers. 20:45:20 the gsap format I linked, the main motivation was to be able to implement most parser-like operations using only a single stack, + an append-only output 20:45:33 to make the best possible use of memory bandwidth and cache 20:45:41 ais523: is it "everything is just bits" even if you aren't manipulating bytes or fixed-size words, but nonnegative bignums such as in Amicus? 20:46:00 b_jonas: well, the bignum is also just bits 20:46:07 you have to know it's a bignum some other way to be able to operate on it correctly 20:46:16 ais523: Yes, it does have those advantages at least. 20:47:10 ais523: well it is manipulated in binary 20:49:13 ais523: meaning of the data => yes, which is some modern dynamically typed languages are object-oriented. 20:50:35 anyway I find that in practice, Python or JavaScript programs nearly always are only meant to allow one type in each function argument / variable 20:50:57 and this has to be documented and verified to always be the case by humans (or via some sort of typing extension to the language) 20:51:20 so the dynamic typing mostly just serves to increase the risk of bugs and increase the amount of manual effort 20:51:23 I quite like python's type system: objects have a class, which you can imagine as if all objects (except maybe small integers) have a class pointer in them, and the class determines the representation of the rest of that object, as in what fields it has for normal objects, or whether it's a variable sized object like tuple or bytes or str that has an variable sized array allocated inside the object (so 20:51:29 it can't be resized). 20:51:49 whereas if you're using Perl-style typing, it's very hard to get wrong because you can't accidentally pass a string rather than an integer or the like 20:51:57 the actual representation could differ, this is just the notion 20:52:08 ais523: There are some exceptions though, sometimes I do use support for multiple types in a variable/argument although usually it is only one type. Especially if it accepts null in addition to another type. 20:52:15 the basical problem here is to do with references, which are a fundamentally different thing from strings and integers 20:52:32 and you can define new classes, and either you tell what fields they have, or you inherit from a class with one of those special variable sized representation. 20:52:33 Another case in JavaScript is sometimes a function might accept either a string or a byte array; this is used in Node.js to represent file names, for example. 20:52:54 zzo38: "null or X" arguments have been a huge source of bugs historically, though; most modern programming languages use some techniques to ensure that nullability is always clear, and that the null case is handled if it could happen 20:53:16 it's very easy to write a function where some input could be null but the programmer didn't realise it while writing the function 20:54:04 ais523: Yes; if you are using Haskell then you can use Maybe, although in JavaScript programs at least, I write it the way I need and it still works anyways. 20:54:48 in any case, you can use python's class-object system to write programs where your functions accept many different types if you want 20:58:31 I am now trying to write a specification of a change set format for TeXnicard, which is intended to be readable ASCII text which can be included in netnews articles. 21:00:30 Do you have any comments about doing such a thing? 21:17:51 Well, do it 20 years ago... 21:20:10 I can't do it 20 years ago; I will do it now. It won't be useful to do it before TeXnicard is written, anyways. 21:21:29 zzo38: do TeXnicard 20 years ago too 21:22:36 Well, I cannot do that, so I will have to do it now, instead. 21:27:06 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:34:08 int-e: TODOs at 36 completed manually. so BB(36) = Church 2^256 is proven modulo bugs in BB.lhs 21:35:46 some TODOs could be eliminated if we can have H ::= □ | \v. H | H T | freeV H and B^V ::= W^V X^V | \v. B^V | B^V T | freeV B^V 21:39:57 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:43:59 tromp: that's probably fine 21:44:55 thanks for probable blessing:-) 21:49:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:50:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:52:11 tromp: you can generalize that a bit further to freeV T^* H 21:52:35 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:52:42 (that * is replication, not function iteration) 21:53:02 -!- tromp_ has joined. 21:55:15 oh, good point, a normal form normalizes all arguments of a free variable 21:56:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:09:13 Here is my document for TeXnicard change set format: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/7fd7e8d9db30a7ca or http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/raw/changeset.doc?name=7fd7e8d9db30a7ca2cb46cc5b0e3c03e064f7173 Now you can see if it is good or not, and what comment you have of it. 23:50:29 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 23:50:31 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:55:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 2020-04-20: 00:11:46 -!- imode has joined. 00:56:44 How to add something to the list of application ID numbers of SQLite? I tried to tell them but doesn't seem to do. 02:02:06 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 02:10:29 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:29:33 -!- craigo has joined. 03:33:20 Resistor colours seem to be made to make it easily enough to remember, even without mnemonics, I think. 05:15:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:15:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:36:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:26:25 -!- user24 has joined. 07:33:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:40:28 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 08:01:45 [[Mama]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71250 * Watermelon3D * (+64) Created page with "'''Mama''' is a work in progress language based on Cooking Mama." 08:02:03 [[Mama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71251&oldid=71250 * Watermelon3D * (+25) 08:13:29 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:16:35 -!- tromp has joined. 08:25:16 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 08:57:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:13:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:14:31 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:20:01 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Z423x5c6 * New user account 09:22:56 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71252&oldid=71158 * Z423x5c6 * (+182) 09:36:49 [[Nuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71253&oldid=68434 * YamTokTpaFa * (-51) 09:49:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:52:25 -!- watermelon3D has joined. 09:52:44 -!- watermelon3D has quit (Client Quit). 09:53:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:04:27 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:51:33 [[Nuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71254&oldid=71253 * YamTokTpaFa * (+82) 10:54:08 [[Nuts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71255&oldid=71254 * YamTokTpaFa * (+9) 10:59:35 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:01:27 -!- sprocklem has joined. 11:16:40 int-e: or further to freeV T^* H T^* 11:24:05 tromp: that makes no difference 11:24:41 because H ::= ... | H T | ... 11:28:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:33:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 11:45:19 (obviously it may make a difference to how you implement it) 11:45:46 tromp: Maybe rename H to S though (for "strict context" rather than "head context") 12:29:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:01:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:01:29 int-e: z T H T is different from z T (H T) 13:09:49 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:12:55 tromp: (z T H) T 13:14:14 oops, right you are 13:33:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:35:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:19:15 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 14:29:12 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 14:33:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:54:22 -!- batman_nair has joined. 14:59:08 -!- imode has joined. 15:12:02 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 15:41:24 testing my impl of strict heads... 15:42:17 so far it eliminated -- TODO: \(\1 1) (\1 (\3 (2 1))) 15:51:53 and -- TODO: \\(\1 1) (\1 (\3 (2 1))) 15:53:43 oh dear, i forgot how to make dwarfs haul trash 15:54:07 -!- Frater_EST has left. 16:04:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:05:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:05:58 and 4 more TODOs at 36 16:06:09 not bad 16:12:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:17:09 myname: set a dump zone with i, then mark each item as "dump", either individually through the k-interface, or for an area with d 16:17:47 yeah i found that out. it's interesting what i actually remember 16:18:17 i dodn't play in years, but qad to queue manufactoring of a door was still quite natural to me 16:19:26 i hope, pigs still don't need gras 16:21:19 I cleaned my home keyboard 16:21:23 Seems like it, per the wiki 16:24:13 the wiki is poor if you want to look up _how_ to do stuff sometimes 16:24:43 the entry about doors mentions three main settings but not how to toggle between those 16:44:46 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:47:24 what game is this? 16:48:52 Dwarf Fortress 16:49:03 best game 16:52:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:52:14 -!- joast has joined. 17:02:16 [[Nuts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71256&oldid=71255 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) deadlink + typofix 17:06:45 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 17:15:50 [[42]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71257&oldid=58478 * Silver * (+426) linked an implementation 17:17:33 [[User:Silver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71258&oldid=69629 * Silver * (+49) added 42 implementation link 17:40:55 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:54:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 18:05:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:22:10 [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71259&oldid=67444 * OsmineYT * (+108) 18:22:14 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:22:25 [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71260&oldid=71259 * OsmineYT * (+1) 18:22:46 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Client Quit). 18:29:55 [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71261&oldid=71242 * Willicoder * (+141) 18:30:13 [[User:Willicoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71262&oldid=71261 * Willicoder * (+9) 18:31:44 [[USERA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71263&oldid=67475 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+159) cats, typofix, example 18:33:44 [[H]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71264&oldid=67674 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Examples of programs */ you had two commands in your quine h and q, so fixed 18:34:32 -!- batman_nair has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:35:44 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:42:50 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71265&oldid=71236 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* U */ 18:43:10 [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71266&oldid=71262 * Willicoder * (+357) 18:47:58 [[Jsfunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71267 * OsmineYT * (+18) Created page with "{{lowercase}} Yeah" 18:58:07 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:00:57 [[Secretary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71268&oldid=42219 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) User:Wingpad has a capital W 19:05:39 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 19:15:53 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:16:06 -!- rain1 has joined. 19:21:10 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 19:21:41 oh fuck, i have a dead donkey in my dining room 19:31:21 `? donkey business 19:31:24 donkey business? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:57:52 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:09:07 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:42:19 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71269&oldid=71240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "JSON" to "CSS" 20:42:19 [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PythonshellDebugwindow * PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "JSON" to "CSS" 20:44:07 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71270&oldid=71269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "CSS" to "wikitext" 20:44:07 [[Special:Log/contentmodel]] change * PythonshellDebugwindow * PythonshellDebugwindow changed the content model of the page [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] from "CSS" to "wikitext" 20:44:23 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71271&oldid=71270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-144) Replaced content with "A hello World" 20:44:53 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71272&oldid=71271 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+18) 20:44:56 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Cmt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71273&oldid=71272 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) 21:00:00 [[Welcome To...]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71274&oldid=71241 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1177) /* Board file */ 21:40:45 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:49:28 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:52:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:52:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:26:15 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 22:52:28 [[JvN29]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71275 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+56) Created page with "# REDIRECT [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]]" 22:52:36 [[JvN29]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71276&oldid=71275 * Hdjensofjfnen * (-1) Redirected page to [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]] 23:02:23 [[John Horton Conway]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71277&oldid=30873 * Hdjensofjfnen * (+14) 23:21:07 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:37:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:58:23 [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71278&oldid=69616 * DMC * (+105) /* Functions */ 2020-04-21: 00:40:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:41:06 [[Solo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71279&oldid=68168 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+116) Example + cats 00:41:55 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71280&oldid=71265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* S */ add Solo 00:54:49 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:55:18 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:21:13 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:22:32 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:27:51 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:28:21 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:38:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:11:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:12:12 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:27:24 -!- iczero has quit (Quit: rip). 02:27:50 -!- iczero has joined. 02:49:19 Is there a command in CSS to replace a sequence of text characters with a picture? 03:48:40 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 04:09:43 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 04:10:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 04:21:19 Now the source code of Super ZZT is also available. Super ZZT has some creatures that ZZT doesn't have, but two are unimplemented, and one is only partially implemented (it looks like to me that it is meant to chase the player with a zig zag path, although it tries to use unsigned variables as signed and fails to even update the sign correctly, too) 04:46:28 -!- tromp has joined. 04:47:34 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:48:48 -!- tromp__ has joined. 04:50:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:51:59 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:53:43 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:55:36 -!- tromp has joined. 05:00:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:14:56 -!- craigo has joined. 05:56:33 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 06:02:07 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:02:42 -!- atslash has joined. 06:06:08 [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71281&oldid=71267 * OsmineYT * (+18) 06:07:14 [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71282&oldid=71281 * OsmineYT * (+0) 06:09:20 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:10:22 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:28:53 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:29:20 -!- atslash has joined. 06:29:53 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:41:30 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:43:28 -!- tromp has joined. 06:46:29 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:48:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:10:46 I added into TeXnicard a command to use the external editor to edit user variables (which may be used for such things as notes for the card set). I also started making a card set using TeXnicard now. 07:31:05 -!- tromp has joined. 08:26:33 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:30:49 Since we call the numbers 0, 1, 2, ... the natural numbers, I've taken to calling all other numbers, unnatural numbers. 08:31:01 -1 is unnatural. 08:31:06 0.5 is also unnatural. 08:40:43 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:42:03 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 08:42:42 cpressey: and call (1+i) an unimaginary number 08:49:04 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 08:58:29 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 09:04:58 what about a big number nobody commented on yet? 09:20:42 [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71283&oldid=71282 * OsmineYT * (+147) 09:20:59 [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71284&oldid=71283 * OsmineYT * (-1) 09:22:54 [[Talk:Jsfunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71285 * OsmineYT * (+239) Created page with "== General discussion == Yeah, I know this is stub, because I don't had enough time to write this article. Maybe this will be changed in the future. --~~~~ duh." 09:23:54 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71286&oldid=68691 * OsmineYT * (+34) 09:24:25 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71287&oldid=71286 * OsmineYT * (+27) 09:24:34 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71288&oldid=71287 * OsmineYT * (+4) 09:29:32 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:33:23 [[Grid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71289&oldid=70015 * Hakerh400 * (-44) Use internal links for wikipedia articles rather than external references 09:35:08 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 09:42:01 -!- Melvar has joined. 09:50:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:51:46 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:51:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:51:51 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:06:19 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:16:15 [[User:Saka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71290&oldid=66469 * Saka * (+53) 10:19:45 -!- Melvar has joined. 10:43:55 real queston: how constraining is it, when underload strings may be at most 32 bytes lonf 10:44:01 does it make the language unusable or something? 10:44:46 What exactly do you mean by "strings"? 10:45:55 values on the stack are strings 10:46:00 now what if 10:46:14 I limited their length to 32 bytes a string 10:46:18 instead of unlimited bytes 10:46:25 does it break Underload severely? 10:54:22 is there something that prevents me from implementing my own c-style like strings on there? 10:55:18 like, if the last byte is not a zero, get the next value from the stack and interpret it as a continuation of the current string 10:55:37 slight drawback is a maximum of 31 byte overhead per string 11:09:33 Underload is hard enough (well, IMO) anyway, even without attempting to deal with a limitation like that. 11:16:08 A lot of programs contain (...):^ where ... is a substantial chunk of the program, and that involves having ... on the stack. It's not immediately obvious how to translate that to requiring less stack size. 11:44:11 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:46:49 no I don't mean that 11:46:51 stack is unlimited 11:46:55 but a size of a string is fixed 11:47:08 you can push as many things onto stack as you want 11:47:17 BUT size of a single element can't exceed certain size 11:53:36 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:53:45 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:55:31 -!- craigo has joined. 12:01:32 int-e: was able to complete a BB(37) search with latest code. got 49 TODOs... 12:07:46 wow that's exciting! 12:08:07 kspalaiologos: That's what I meant. If you have a big outer loop, the natural construction is (...this is a long sequence of code, probably more than 32 bytes...):^ and it's not trivial (if it's even possible) to do that in pieces. 12:08:46 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:31:06 i suspect that BB(37) = BB(35) + 2 :-( 12:35:01 What's the worst-case slowdown translating a turing machine into lambda calculus, I wonder? 12:43:26 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:05:32 Taneb: it's basically functional programming... the tape becomes two stacks (cons lists), and the rest is finite control, so it's a constant factor for any fixed TM. 13:06:25 Is it therefore appropriate to expect BB_TM to be proportional to BB_LC? 13:06:34 No. 13:06:59 The finite control plus two stacks is a vanishingly small fragment of what LC can do. 13:07:21 But on the other hand, sizes are not comparable at all either. 13:08:35 If you're explicit about the construction you'll find functions f and g (probably polynomial) such that BB_TM(n) <= BB_LC(f(n)) and BB_LC(n) <= BB_TM(g(n)). 13:09:35 But those bounds will be very coarse. 13:10:15 (Because they'd be obtained by mapping lambda terms to a small fragment of Turing machines, and Turing machines to a small fragment of lambda terms.) 13:16:27 f(n) <= 2*n*ceil(log_2(4*n+4))+O(1) 13:18:42 g(n) is probably sublinear 13:20:48 tromp: Uhm, that's a different BB_LC. 13:21:12 (One with input.) 13:22:49 The one we're currently studying (more you than I) doesn't have a dense encoding for bitstrings. 13:26:13 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:27:34 so then the 2*n shld be replaced by 28*n 13:27:41 It's easy to encode 1 bit in 4-5 bits or 2 bits in 3-7 bits. 13:28:14 you can do stuff like 1 (2 (1 (2 3))) for [0,1,0,1]. 13:28:44 oh, right 13:29:08 (4-7, not 3-7, of course) 13:29:46 I suppose you can get quite a bit more elaborate than that and get some way below 3.5 bits per bit. 13:30:29 > 8/logBase 2 5 13:30:30 3.4454124645871445 13:30:51 (But base 5 is ugly when talking about bitstrings.) 13:31:16 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 13:36:10 > (4.5, 5.5/2, 6.5/logBase 2 6, 7.5/3) -- actually we can reverse the meanings of 1 and 2 (or 1..4) to make sure we get an encoding that only uses the average length, even in the worst case. 13:36:13 (4.5,2.75,2.5145432470245206,2.5) 13:36:28 huh. 13:36:40 > (4.5, 5.5/2, 7/logBase 2 7, 7.5/3) 13:36:42 (4.5,2.75,2.493450309756155,2.5) 13:37:05 (I misread which base gave the optimal number of bits in this setting) 13:38:04 So, 2.5 bits per bit if we encode in base 8. That's... better than expected already. 13:39:24 > [(4 + (n-1)/2) / logBase 2 n | n <- [2,4,7,8]] 13:39:27 [4.5,2.75,2.493450309756155,2.5] 14:03:32 kspalaiologos: my guess is that 32 bytes would be very limiting, but with a much larger constant size you could probably still implement a turing machine 14:03:47 or a finite control two-stack machine or whatnot 14:04:15 it's just that each of those elements will be very long because they each contain full a program for that two-stack machine, 14:04:26 but since you can write a univeral machine for that, the size is effectively constant 14:04:32 I could be wrong here 14:07:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:07:32 this would be a rather inefficient means of computation of course, worse than brainfuck 14:07:47 because I thought about implementing underload in Brainfuck 14:07:50 but now, meeeeh 14:08:11 it requires a lot of dynamic memory allocation I can't really simplify this much 14:10:38 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 14:45:12 -!- rain1 has joined. 15:02:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:03:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:13:17 [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71291&oldid=71188 * Apollyon094 * (+2) 15:14:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:17:54 [[I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71292&oldid=71291 * Apollyon094 * (-1) 15:31:28 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:32:16 -!- atslash has joined. 15:35:41 did wolfram discover rule 30 15:44:02 oh philosophy 15:44:06 it was always there 15:44:09 I think that is one thing that is genuinely due to him. He invented the numbering scheme used for the simple 1D cellular automata. 15:46:03 yeah I was going to ask about the numbering scheme 15:46:18 (and also about who made this study systematic) 15:46:58 it blows my mind that nobody enumerated the 1d CAs before 15:47:02 In general, Wolfram seems to like taking credit for other people's work though, so it wouldn't really surprise me much to find out that it was someone else. 15:47:05 and noticed that rule 30 was interesting 15:47:16 yeah that's my reason for asking 15:47:31 Well, who knows what people do in their basement (so to speak). 15:50:02 > The concept was originally discovered in the 1940s by Stanislaw Ulam and John von Neumann while they were contemporaries at Los Alamos National Laboratory. While studied by some throughout the 1950s and 1960s, it was not until the 1970s and Conway's Game of Life 15:50:05 :1:39: error: parse error on input ‘in’ 15:50:55 There was a point in time at which if you wanted to know how cellular automata would play out, your best bet would be to get some graph paper and start filling in squares 15:52:00 im trying to look into what these 2 folks did on CA first 15:52:01 Yeah hard to imagine doing this systematically without at least a matrix dot printer, and preferrably a pixel-oriented monitor. 15:53:33 But also the basement thing... it's easy to dismiss concrete cellular automata as a cute hobby that's not worth publishing. 15:57:27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_cellular_automaton 15:57:41 it seems like the original guys were working on 2d CAs, similar to wireworld kind of 15:58:13 I imagine the self-replication by simple rules was the driving idea there. 16:01:06 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cellular-automata/#BrieHist 16:05:44 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis%E2%80%93Hedlund%E2%80%93Lyndon_theorem is anyone familiar with this? 16:06:52 rain1: we have an article at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_29-state_cellular_automaton too 16:12:55 is anyone reading any good new math or CS books? 16:19:59 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:31:13 I'm reading some good old maths or CS books (there's a lot of them to work through) 16:32:13 what are your favorite ones? 16:33:01 Currently reading Quantum Computation and Quantum Information by Nielsen and Chuang 16:33:09 oh yeah that's a good one 16:33:10 -!- xelxebar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:33:30 -!- xelxebar has joined. 16:33:54 -!- tromp has joined. 16:35:50 -!- imode has joined. 16:36:56 -!- batman_nair has joined. 16:38:05 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:41:05 -!- ocharles has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:41:15 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:42:07 -!- mich181189 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:43:24 -!- ocharles has joined. 16:44:00 -!- glowcoil has joined. 16:45:46 -!- ProofTechnique has joined. 16:46:09 -!- mich181189 has joined. 16:47:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:56:59 -!- tromp has joined. 16:58:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:55 -!- tromp has joined. 17:10:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:15 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:14:25 -!- atslash has joined. 17:23:42 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 17:24:50 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 17:25:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:47:03 what are you reading rain1? 17:47:56 nothing right now! I'm trying to find something good 17:48:18 I last read a good one about basic particle physics explained via lego 17:56:50 -!- tromp has joined. 18:16:22 -!- batman_nair has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:24:03 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:31:32 -!- kritixilithos has joined. 18:33:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:33:43 -!- dnm_ has changed nick to dnm. 18:34:12 -!- dnm has changed nick to Guest95546. 18:37:08 rain1: cool, do you have a link to that? 18:38:30 i've started reading these lecture notes on computablity, arithmetical hierarchy, ... https://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~fstephan/recursiontheory-pdflatex.pdf, but have been meaning to get back at it sometime 18:39:10 -!- kritixilithos has quit (Quit: quit). 18:41:50 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Particle-Physics-Brick-Ben-Still/dp/184403934X 18:42:38 these notes look fun 19:04:51 -!- tromp has joined. 19:10:11 I would hope that some of us can make working together on making TeXnicard and on the templates. Even though I would probably write most of the C/SQL/PostScript codes myself, I would hope other people can help too, such as contributing templates, making bug reports and feature requests, examining the way the codes are written in order to complain about it, improving documentation, etc. 19:12:49 I do not know who to ask, really. 19:15:41 -!- Guest95546 has changed nick to dnm. 19:21:43 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:30:13 https://www.twitch.tv/stephen_wolfram 19:31:40 zzo38: TeXnicard? 19:41:06 dnm: It is a program to managing and rendering custom cards for games such as Magic: the Gathering. It is an alternative to Magic Set Editor. 19:41:49 [[FileCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71293&oldid=69675 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) cat adds 19:55:40 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71294&oldid=71189 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) 19:59:19 Perhaps, I should add a frequently ask question section too. 19:59:33 There is a Fossil repository available at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui 20:03:20 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 20:03:25 zzo38: Thanks for the link. Just checked out the Fossil site. 20:04:57 Among other things, I had never heard of Farbfeld before, so now I know something about that (mostly, that it exists). 20:08:49 The link to Farbfeld Utilities describes the file format, which is simple. Farbfeld can be a useful format to process pictures within pipes; I personally do not use it as an on disk storage format, although the inventor of the format suggested using farbfeld compressed with bzip2 as an on disk storage format. 20:43:42 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71295&oldid=71245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) 20:45:40 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71296&oldid=71294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2384) /* Unnamed language 2 */ 20:46:08 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71297&oldid=71296 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Unnamed language 2 */ 21:24:08 `quote limerick 21:24:11 No output. 21:32:31 `quote animated 21:32:32 1107) Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them 21:32:33 unicode 21:32:42 animated emojis 21:33:14 or just a blink attribute 21:33:25 handled by the VGA card 21:34:17 why do VGA cards even have a mode with blink attribute for text mode? blinking cursor, that I can see, but blinking characters are just annoying 21:34:27 why'd they build that into hardware? 21:35:22 I mean, in VGA it's mostly redundant because you could just emulate it by changing palette colors 21:35:25 but still 21:35:49 The other PC video cards have that too in text mode 21:35:54 It isn't only VGA 21:36:04 zzo38: right, but why? 21:36:54 I am not really sure why they put that in, although that function can be disabled. 21:36:58 I'm guessing it was less of a "this is super useful" and more of a "we have this leftover attribute bit and this can be implemented with minimal hardware" 21:37:16 it could be used for error messages to get the user's attention 21:37:42 Yes, probably. ZZT also uses it for flashy water 21:38:00 or as decoration in like moves about hacking 21:38:04 if the hardware supports blinking cursor then not much extra hardware is required for blinking arbitrary text 21:38:40 Yes, although the CRTC chip they used already supports cursor blinking, and yet they didn't use it, implementing their own instead. 21:38:54 Also, the cursor blinking rate and text blinking rate are different (although they are synchronized). 21:40:35 huh 21:40:36 okay 21:40:43 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:40:56 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:41:13 -!- xelxebar has joined. 21:43:24 -!- tromp_ has joined. 21:46:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:46:45 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:50:38 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:52:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:53:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:58:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:58:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:13:25 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:20:01 -!- tromp has joined. 22:24:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:30:22 if the time cube 22:30:27 `? time cube 22:30:28 EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools. 22:30:43 teaches that Earth is a cube, then is http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html the Time square? 22:34:29 -!- tromp has joined. 22:37:37 ok gn 22:39:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:42:02 . o O (And how's that linked to Times Square?) 23:09:33 lol 23:13:15 Well, follow a road to Rome, then find the road from Times Square (which also leads to Rome) and traverse it backwards. 23:13:36 (universal directions) 23:14:43 `unidecode ⊠ 23:14:44 ​[U+22A0 SQUARED TIMES] 23:16:20 i,i MAY YOU LIVE IN N-ARY TIMES OPERATOR 23:20:03 fizzie: oh nice 23:47:20 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71298&oldid=71295 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 2020-04-22: 00:00:28 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:00:51 -!- xelxebar has joined. 00:59:40 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 01:20:34 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:40:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:47:58 Hello 03:45:48 [[Egaharjb]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71299 * DanielCristofani * (+1691) Created page with "This is a very simple language I designed accidentally. It consists only of regex find-and-replaces with loops; it's meant for banging text files into a different shape, but i..." 03:59:16 -!- tromp has joined. 04:03:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:05:27 Hi 04:10:39 -!- tromp has joined. 04:16:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:27:17 -!- tromp has joined. 04:31:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:32:11 Maybe the version control file in TeXnicard should store multiple versions 05:21:26 -!- tromp has joined. 05:26:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:37:51 -!- tromp has joined. 05:42:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:55:26 -!- craigo has joined. 06:32:03 -!- tromp has joined. 06:37:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:00:47 -!- tromp has joined. 07:47:13 http://www.froup.com/tr/tr.pl?242 07:56:06 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:07:05 -!- wlp1s1 has joined. 08:07:25 -!- iczero has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:55:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:00:56 -!- tromp has joined. 09:06:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:13:35 [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71300&oldid=71299 * DanielCristofani * (+531) 09:14:16 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 09:17:31 [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71301&oldid=71300 * DanielCristofani * (+740) 09:20:24 "given two rooted trees, calculate minimal amount of leafs to remove so that the trees are isomorphic" <- is there a smarter solution to that than bruteforce? 09:22:59 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71302&oldid=71280 * DanielCristofani * (+15) /* E */ 09:26:47 [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71303&oldid=71301 * DanielCristofani * (+0) 09:34:32 kspalaiologos: are those trees ordered or unordered? 09:35:13 they are unordered 09:35:55 (just clarifying, it may not even make any real difference to hardness) 09:36:17 I've heard that there's a more optimal solution to this problem 09:36:20 but I can't figure it out 09:36:42 "more optimal" :-/ 09:37:27 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:38:22 has lower computational complexity 09:40:38 hi! 09:42:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:42:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:45:22 [[Cell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71304&oldid=68083 * OsmineYT * (+56) 09:45:35 kspalaiologos: but rooted, I hope 09:45:44 yes obviously 09:46:05 I suspect this one is actually in P. 09:48:44 It's amenable to dynamic programming (in order to figure out the answer for the root, first compute the answer for all pairs of children of the root), with maximum weight bipartite matching to combine those values. 09:49:17 (For this purpose, the value that is to be maximized is the number of leafs kept.) 09:52:10 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71305&oldid=71288 * OsmineYT * (+16) 09:52:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:52:59 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71306&oldid=71305 * OsmineYT * (+1) 09:53:26 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71307&oldid=71306 * OsmineYT * (-16) 09:53:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:53:49 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 09:55:02 (Any unpaired children end up with 0 leafs; they are deleted in full. There may well be an off-by-one error in this logic, but essentially it should work like this.) 09:58:15 I've already done the Newick parser 09:59:59 Eww, Firefox, why? Why enlarge the location bar when it's focused? 10:12:12 Meh. It can be disabled, at least for now, https://lifehacker.com/how-to-disable-firefox-75s-new-address-bar-1842728031 10:18:48 -!- wlp1s1 has quit (Excess Flood). 10:19:02 (It's actually kind of impressive just how offensive I find this idea. I feel like they're pushing that thing into my face. But it probably comes from having trained myself to notice and act upon minor visual cues from the UI for decades. Oh and I hate change.) 10:19:11 -!- wlp1s1 has joined. 10:19:22 kspalaiologos: parsing seems to be the easy part :P 10:19:30 yes 10:19:43 I'm essentially in a point where I have the labeled tree's hashmap built 10:19:55 and I think I'm up to something 10:21:50 [[Egaharjb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71308&oldid=71303 * Keymaker * (+194) Added some categories. 10:30:07 [[Daniel B. Cristofani]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71309&oldid=30550 * DanielCristofani * (+18) 10:37:09 https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence perhaps this question is of interest to folks here 10:49:33 [[Beatnik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71310&oldid=67619 * OsmineYT * (+65) 11:07:56 I wonder which substrings do not occur 11:08:45 or do all substrings occur? but some occur multiple times 11:08:55 BB*36) looking mighty impressive on https://oeis.org/A333479 11:17:26 how much do you trust those numbers? 11:19:36 not with my life, but would be willing to stake some money on them 11:20:30 [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71311&oldid=71308 * DanielCristofani * (+18) 11:21:23 [[Egaharjb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71312&oldid=71311 * DanielCristofani * (-4) 11:23:33 so about as much as i trust numbers in https://oeis.org/A094777 11:24:44 Hmm. 11:32:05 tromp: Hmm, on the OEIS page, maybe you could mention the 5n+6 thing? 11:33:45 tromp: And about the Go enumeration, do you have the number(s) of edge states somewhere? 11:37:14 Ah, the paper has it. 363,324,268,018 11:37:28 yes, also mentioned on my webpage 11:38:27 sure, i can add 5n+6. and links to the BB files 11:41:40 [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71313&oldid=51805 * IFcoltransG * (+1432) Added a few more control flow examples and the Concepts category 11:48:08 Hip, hip, hooray! My little paper is on arXiv. 12:12:57 [[Modulo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71314 * OsmineYT * (+183) Created page with "'''Modulo''' is esolang invented and created by [[User:OsmineYT]]. All commands must start with "%" (modulo, percent) sign. == Syntax == Every Modulo command starts with modu..." 12:22:53 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:30:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:39:18 [[User:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71315&oldid=71307 * OsmineYT * (+95) 12:45:10 . o O ( There are three kinds of people, those who believe in the law of excluded middle and those who don't. ) 13:02:09 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 14:00:23 Hmm... True, false, neither. Technically correct? 14:06:13 [[FarTooGeneral]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71316 * Baidicoot * (+2337) Created page with "= FarTooGeneral = FarTooGeneral (FTG) is an esoteric 'execution architecture' created by [[/wiki/User:Baidicoot|User:Baidicoot]] during the COVID-19 pandemic as a means of not..." 14:10:46 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71317&oldid=71316 * Baidicoot * (+199) /* Execution */ 14:11:22 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71318&oldid=71317 * Baidicoot * (+13) /* Example Data Structures */ 14:32:12 [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71319&oldid=70544 * Orby * (+85) 14:34:49 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71320&oldid=71318 * Baidicoot * (+1169) 14:36:33 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71321&oldid=71320 * Baidicoot * (+133) /* Example Program */ 14:37:12 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71322&oldid=71321 * Baidicoot * (-25) /* Example Program */ 14:38:57 [[Disan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71323&oldid=65501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) cats 14:39:22 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71324&oldid=71302 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* D */ 14:46:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:56:06 [[ASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71325&oldid=70435 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+10) /* Examples */ fix link 14:56:38 [[ASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71326&oldid=71325 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* Examples */ pipe trick 14:58:41 int-e: the following appears to be looping, but is still a bit of a challenge to prove: 14:58:43 -- TODO: (\1 1) (\1 (1 (\\2 (3 1)))) 14:59:36 -!- xelxebar has joined. 15:00:34 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:01:34 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:17:54 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:18:40 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:42:59 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:44:55 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:53:04 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:54:51 -!- sprocklem has joined. 16:14:26 -!- imode has joined. 16:42:56 Do you have some ideas about the change set format and version control file format of TeXnicard? I thought that perhaps the version control file should store multiple versions, just writing the new version at the end after the previous version. Two new fields can be added in the header, one points to the most recent key frame (since there is no need to read previous frames), and other one points to the end of the file. 16:43:33 (You need one to point to the end of the file in case the data is partially written at the end, so that it is possible to recover from it.) 16:53:34 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:54:06 -!- atslash has joined. 17:14:54 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:28:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:32:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:35:01 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:41:13 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:41:16 -!- imode has joined. 17:41:46 -!- atslash has joined. 17:46:48 [[Gummy Bear]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71327 * Hakerh400 * (+15940) +[[Gummy Bear]] 17:46:53 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71328&oldid=71324 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Gummy Bear]] 17:46:57 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71329&oldid=71249 * Hakerh400 * (+17) +[[Gummy Bear]] 18:16:37 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:19:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:20:06 -!- tromp has joined. 18:32:15 I recall someone in here playing ifMUD. 18:32:18 zzo38: was it you? 18:32:25 imode: Yes. 18:32:50 how do permissions/ownership principles work in ifMUD? if a person designs an object and others use it, how malicious can it be? 18:33:21 imode: It can teleport the user, but not much else. 18:34:20 I see. can one user's object interact with another user's object? is there a dedicated permissions system? 18:34:59 No, there is no permission system, unfortunately. 18:35:07 interesting. 18:35:27 (Well, there is a very limited one: If an object has the "examinable" flag set, then other users, and programs by other users, can read that object's fields; otherwise they are unreadable.) 18:36:24 There are also listening exits, which it would seem can be triggered by programs, so this can be done to activate another object remotely by a program even if you do not own it. 18:37:25 I wanted a more sophisticated permission system, where you can define group/other permissions (similar to UNIX permissions) on field names and on prefixes of field names (where the "group" is actually a channel), although this is not currently implemented. 18:37:47 why do all putty-based terminal software hate diacricits 18:38:31 does anyone know of a terminal software that doesn't hate diacritics? 18:38:36 zzo38: how easy/difficult would you say it'd be to implement something like this purely in ifMUD coe? 18:38:39 s/coe/code 18:40:01 imode: The permissions system I mentioned I think would have to be done in Perl, although there are many things that can be done in ifMUD code; you can look at some of my object codes (most of them are set examinable) in order to see how I have done some of them 18:40:47 is ifMUD extensible via perl? 18:40:58 huh. 18:41:26 It is written in Perl, although only the server operator can alter its code (although apparently it is possible to alter it while it is running; I am not sure how that works, though) 18:42:06 the reason I ask is that I'm debating between including a permissions system for my project or allowing "world builders" to add it via plugins (along with other pieces of code). 18:42:30 right now all I do is hand you a postfix lang, a key-value db and a chat system. 18:42:46 and a way to import procedures via a "package manager". 18:44:13 I think that a permission system should be added, more than what ifMUD currently has (which is only the "examinable" flag, which isn't much) 18:50:18 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 19:09:49 Perhaps the prefix-based permissions like I mentioned might do. 19:13:52 thanks for the info. I think I've decided to have a very, very basic set of permissions that are applicable regardless of intent. owners of "servers" can determine who can use what procedures and primitives, and create roles for people that join. 19:16:25 OK 19:35:44 imode: oh you are making a multi-world-something-thing? 19:37:53 and using that queue-based language we’ve discussed a handful of times? how had it evolved, did you add something else to threading? 19:45:09 arseniiv: yup! I'm taking a majority of the language and turning it into a multi-"world" multi-user environment. 19:45:24 I scrapped the concurrency features. 19:45:48 but I added things like lists, strings, floats, local and global (across all procedures and persistent) variables. 19:47:14 if you make a user account, you can join "worlds" other users have created. 19:48:10 each of these worlds constitutes a key-value database, a set of procedures, and a set of groups. there's also a package manager and a central package repository for importing new features into your world. 19:48:30 that’s interesting. I’ll help you test this thing if you’d be interesting and I would be able to set up the things it would need 19:48:37 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:49:41 I'd love that! I plan on launching a private alpha to interested parties to test things out. eventually, I plan on having world ownership be a subscription service. 19:51:40 tiered by resources, essentially. if you want a larger call depth, more key-value entries, longer programs and larger scratch space, you can have that. 19:53:57 imode: BTW how do you see (hm I forgot the accurate term) a “named-field spreadsheet” thing where if X is defined using Y and Y’s definition changes, X’s value would change automatically (and if X depends on itself, the system would strongly criticize you and not do anything)? It may or may not be useful in such setting. Certainly not for all definitions, but maybe for some specially marked ones 19:55:01 I'd see that as a dataflow graph. 19:55:32 if you change a cell, all cells that depend on that cell would have to update, and all cells that depend on the newly updated cells would have to update, so on and so forth. 19:55:51 (in any case you can lambdabot me if I won’t be around, I’m lazy to logread for a long long time now) 19:56:04 yeah that’s how I understand that thing is implemented 19:56:15 there's not much else you can do. 19:56:15 and you check for cycles when a definition changes 19:56:19 yup. 19:57:12 it can be made into a its own kind of storage if it’s useful, but I didn’t experiment with this before, only read about it 19:59:32 I am not so interested in what imode is making unless perhaps the source code will be freely available and fully documented, and can be used with a telnet client. I also have no interest in joining a private alpha, regardless of the conditions. 20:01:49 well, if it helps, I plan on releasing a self-hostable version in the future that's FOSS. 20:02:38 Yes, that can help. 20:02:47 gotta make money somehow in the interrim. 20:03:18 Yes, OK, and even if the self-hostable FOSS version is available, you can still charge money for using on your server too, anyways, I think 20:04:18 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:05:04 correct. typically there's a good stretch between when something is available and when the product is open sourced. the start-up costs involved are made back by the exclusivity in the first couple of months, and then after that you have an existing user base that's already present on your infra. 20:05:30 OK 20:05:46 so people who really wanna dig into the code and self-host will be happy, but I can still pay my engineers and offer convenience. 20:11:38 Today I was pondering about what monads in the poset of sets and the subset relation, considered as a category, look like 20:11:58 Then the friend I was talking to googled and apparently they're closure operators, which are apparently a thing 20:14:26 I love it when things are things 20:15:45 and comonads there are… damn, I forgot the part where I read about functions on set algebras being the other way. They had a name for that too 20:17:09 Coclosure operator? 20:19:42 Taneb: they had a usual name too, I think that was a chapter in Pierce, on recursive types, maybe regarding to the difference between μ and ν. That required a more general theory which I’ll try to find now what it was there about 20:20:12 Kernel operators? 20:26:53 TeXnicard seem not the only alternative to Magic Set Editor; I also found something called PrincessEdit, although I cannot seem to find any documentation about how to use it. 20:26:58 ah, I found that part. There, several properties of a subset X ⊂ U, given a function F: P(U) → P(U) (P is powerset), are defined: X is F-closed if X ⊂ F(X), is F-consistent if F(X) ⊂ X (and a fixed point if F(X) = X, but that’s not interesting). So that’s not too related to closure operators but if it somehow is, co-operators may be called “consistency operators”, hm 20:30:03 ah, I see. For F being a closure operator at least requires any X ⊂ U be F-closed 20:30:30 so F being a “consistency operator” should require any X be F-consistent 20:31:08 as of monotonicity and idempotency of F in this case, I don’t know 20:33:34 ah there is a simpler axiomatization: X ⊂ F(Y) iff F(X) ⊂ F(Y). Now it’s obvious how to dualize that! F(X) ⊂ Y iff F(X) ⊂ F(Y). And also we can plainly see monadic bind and comonadic extend here too, yeah 20:34:05 in Kleisli or something something form 20:34:25 I don’t know what I’m saying here 20:35:09 ah, yes, they say on en.wikipedia the dual is called a kernel operator indeed! Or also an interior operator or a dual closure 20:36:53 also when axiomatizing closure via monotonicity, idempotency and “any X is F-closed”, they say the dual has both first and second unchanged 20:40:39 oh jesus, pointless topolocy 20:40:46 this channel can get weird about mathematics 20:42:11 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71330&oldid=71297 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2408) /* Unnamed language 2 */ 20:43:38 b_jonas: topology is pointless, resistance is futile. We are fixed point 20:53:08 [[Phile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3276) Created page with "'''Phile''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Syntax== Each line in Phile is one of the following: OPEN ''fname''; WRITE ''fname'' ''value''; OVERWRITE '..." 20:54:56 [[Phile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71332&oldid=71331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) 20:57:13 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:57:31 does a word for cold (an illness) in your languages have something in common not with being cold/chilled/frozen? 20:59:52 We typically call the common cold "flunssa", which as a word is obviously related to influenza/flu, which we call "influenssa". 21:00:16 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flunssa 21:00:48 fizzie: interesting! 21:01:04 I was afraid I caught a cold and I noted once more that in Russian it related to being in the cold toom roughly it translates as “a state related to having been in the cold earlier” 21:01:15 (if it translates at all) 21:02:30 Finnish does also have a cold-related synonym "vilustuminen", which is roughly "becoming cold" except not quite. 21:02:32 s/toom/too, 21:02:53 yeah, the details! 21:03:42 That is, "vilu" is specifically the sensation of feeling cold, not so much a low temperature in an absolute sense. 21:04:27 (The latter would be "kylmä".) 21:05:27 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71333 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1208) Created page with "This program will output ten random letter combinations with a length of 5 to 8 characters. function gen(n) { I like distinctions like these in languages! So varying 21:06:18 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71334&oldid=71151 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) 21:06:37 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71335&oldid=71334 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* Random name generator */ 21:06:47 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71336&oldid=71333 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) 21:06:58 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71337&oldid=71335 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) 21:07:16 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71338&oldid=71328 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* P */ 21:08:42 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71339&oldid=71227 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+197) /* Phile */ 21:28:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 21:28:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:45:59 Do any of you fine esolangers know of an existing Forth that's based on SK calculus? 21:46:20 I wrote one, but I don't want to add an entry to the wiki if it's already something that has been done. 21:46:29 https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth 21:47:26 -!- kmc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:47:26 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:47:55 -!- spruit11 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:48:07 -!- kmc has joined. 21:48:10 -!- izabera has joined. 21:48:29 -!- spruit11 has joined. 21:49:54 orbitaldecay: nice 21:50:24 Thank you! I think it's pretty neat. I'm excited about the idea. Did you look at boolean.skf? 21:50:38 It seems to be possible to bootstrap a normal forth implementation using sk calculus 21:50:57 that file is the beginning of that 21:50:58 provided you can simulate things like RAM. 21:51:13 yeah, that gets tricky 21:51:37 I mean, theoretically possible, but probably a really slow way to go 21:52:39 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:52:58 I'll probably eventually introduce an integer type to speed up arithmetic, but I want to avoid doing that sort of thing as much as possible 21:54:26 a forth based on SK combinator calculus? that sounds like contradiction 21:54:31 do you have a link? 21:54:54 https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth previously posted. 21:54:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:54:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:58:35 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:07:18 Don't get too excited, its basically unlambda in post-fix notation with the forth : ; syntax 22:07:29 orbitaldecay: Did you look at boolean.skf? => yeah 22:08:09 arseniiv: cool, I want to write a standard lib to build up the language like a regular forth 22:08:16 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone too far). 22:08:41 I was surprised at how quickly I was able to get away from using function application 22:17:35 orbitaldecay: ok, I wouldn't call that either unlambda or forth 22:26:11 b_jonas: I'm actually glad to hear you say that. I was trying to make something sufficiently different from both. 22:28:53 The way the tokens are parsed and the : ; is very forth, hence the name. But under the hood it's totally different obviously. 22:57:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:36 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71340&oldid=71337 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-38) 23:52:45 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71341&oldid=71340 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+538) /* Languages */ 2020-04-23: 00:17:52 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 00:38:47 [[BF instruction extension]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71342&oldid=56223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+317) 00:40:08 [[BF instruction extension]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71343&oldid=71342 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+119) 01:18:57 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:24:22 -!- heroux has joined. 01:27:10 Is 12 kelvin more than the temperature in the room a reasonable temperature for a quad core Intel CPU? 01:32:54 That depends on the temperature in the room. 01:33:42 And also on what the CPU is doing and other things. 01:34:36 Temperature in the room is 17 Celsius, and the temperature of the CPU says 29.0 Celsius. 01:37:07 (Even when the temperature in the room is 21 Celsius, the CPU temperature seems to be from 10 to 12 kelvin higher.) 01:38:28 That seems like a reasonable temperature for a CPU. 02:05:28 quite cool in fact 02:05:32 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:08:37 [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71344&oldid=71313 * A * (+28) /* Redo statement */ 02:10:20 [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71345&oldid=71344 * A * (+283) /* Higher-level Things */ 02:10:34 [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71346&oldid=71345 * A * (-283) /* Try-Catch-Finally statement */ 02:37:05 -!- heroux has joined. 02:42:18 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:43:13 -!- heroux has joined. 02:44:56 -!- tromp has joined. 02:49:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:57:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:59:05 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OutRite * New user account 02:59:57 Be nice if that were how more CPUs were temp-wise 03:04:50 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71347&oldid=71252 * OutRite * (+234) /* Introductions */ 03:15:09 there has got to be a better way of writing web applications than spinning up a damn interpreted language every time you wanna do something. 03:16:17 I miss CGI. 03:17:40 You could use CGI. Fossil is written in C, so you could also use writing in C; Fossil also uses a special preprocessor so that you can include HTML codes directly in the C code without needing extra quoting and that stuff like you normally do in C. 03:18:08 FastCGI seems to have been "abandoned" standard-wise. 03:18:17 and I need support for server sent events. 03:19:59 If you need support for server sent events, a web application is probably the wrong way to do it. 03:21:02 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server-sent_events 03:22:32 A web application is still probably the wrong way to do things like that. 03:24:19 you're probably right: I considered wrapping an HTTP gateway around a raw TCP server. 03:48:46 -!- tromp has joined. 03:54:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:17:05 -!- wlp1s1 has left ("Leaving"). 04:53:52 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Durkenheimer * New user account 05:00:51 I honestly don't _get_ some of the FastCGI-like stuff 05:01:14 Some of them are basically running HTTP semantics, over a socket, with just an arbitrarily different protocol 05:01:30 At which point... why not just do HTTP with the expectation you'll have a reverse proxy in front? 05:01:48 If you're fully expecting a reverse proxy to be in play, an acceptable HTTP implementation is _not that hard_ 05:21:50 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71348&oldid=70455 * YamTokTpaFa * (+6) how about this design 05:36:42 -!- tromp has joined. 05:36:47 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71349&oldid=71348 * YamTokTpaFa * (+298) /* Examples */ truth-machine 05:41:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:25:34 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71350&oldid=71349 * YamTokTpaFa * (+35) /* Examples */ oops i almost forgot output command 06:26:21 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 06:53:22 -!- craigo has joined. 06:58:32 -!- tromp has joined. 06:59:02 I have started making up a set of Magic: the Gathering cards in a TeXnicard database, which is available at: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr.db 06:59:47 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:59:48 (It is a SQLite database, so it can also be opened by the SQLite command line, although it is probably more useful to open it using TeXnicard.) 07:03:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:03:14 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:29 -!- tromp has joined. 07:09:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:27:05 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:27:23 -!- FreeFull has joined. 07:29:55 -!- FreeFull has quit (Client Quit). 07:58:34 [[Modulo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71351&oldid=71314 * OsmineYT * (+65) 08:06:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 08:21:56 [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71352&oldid=46955 * DanielCristofani * (+52) /* See Also */ 08:35:06 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:36:52 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 09:11:36 -!- xelxebar_ has joined. 09:11:43 -!- xelxebar has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:12:49 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wzkchem5 * New user account 09:17:34 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:25:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71353&oldid=71347 * Wzkchem5 * (+172) 09:25:20 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71354&oldid=71350 * YamTokTpaFa * (+3) /* Examples */ 09:26:10 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71355&oldid=71353 * Wzkchem5 * (+58) 09:52:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:53:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:54:04 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:05:06 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:30:53 -!- craigo has joined. 10:49:54 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71356&oldid=71354 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* Examples */ right parenthesis! 10:57:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:58:08 [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71357&oldid=68930 * YamTokTpaFa * (+18) 11:07:22 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/A14!4 study]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71358 * YamTokTpaFa * (+386) Created page with "== mnemonic == OUT INX GO2 DLB SKP SXB SXF END BDS EDS RET CAL FGT INC DEC STR CSN CEN CSR CER CLR ABA AAC CN0 CN1 CN2 CN3 LXN VAX SUM DIF PRD AND XOR CW2 CW1 PM1 PM2 Can tho..." 11:26:13 these are some dope mnemonics 11:26:22 I didn't even think about adding numbers to my mnemonics 11:26:32 now it opens a whole new spectrum to code obfuscation 12:27:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:39:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:49:13 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:55:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:30:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:34:45 -!- relrod has quit (Changing host). 13:34:45 -!- relrod has joined. 13:36:01 I'm thinking about the categories of monads on the finite categories 1, 2, 3, etc 13:36:20 It seems these categories form (n-1) dimensional hypercubes 13:58:43 Taneb: how 1, 2, 3 are defined, are they just discrete categories on n objects or something more interesting? (can’t find anywhere for some reason) 14:00:36 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:01:00 in the morning I thought about counting all DAGs having only a single automorphism. Or maybe posets instead of DAGs, whichever would come easier 14:02:37 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:03:04 hm it seems 1, 2, 3 should not be discrete, or any endofunctor would be a monad and they won’t form cubes?.. 14:04:50 [[Happy Fantasy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71359 * Hakerh400 * (+1426) +[[Happy Fantasy]] 14:04:56 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71360&oldid=71338 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Happy Fantasy]] 14:05:00 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71361&oldid=71329 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Happy Fantasy]] 14:05:32 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:09:13 arseniiv: 3 for example has objects {0,1,2} and looks like 0 -> 1 -> 2 14:13:00 (plus identities and composits) 14:17:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 14:21:09 Taneb: ah, thanks! Linear orders, then? 14:21:30 Yeah! 14:23:26 so, a functor is a monotone function, and a monad… let me see… 14:27:59 You have x <= f(x) and f(f(x)) <= f(x) for all x 14:28:07 Which imply f(x) = f(f(x)) 14:28:22 So, f is monotone, increasing, and idempotent 14:31:00 (for a poset this is known as a closure operator) 14:31:31 what functors wouldn’t be a monad in this case? Hm maybe I shouldn’t try to think one up for 3, maybe 4 or 5 would be needed? 14:31:44 There's an example for 2 14:31:54 If you map everything to 0 14:32:03 That's a functor but not a monad 14:32:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:32:54 ah hmmm I can’t see what condition does it break 14:33:19 it’s idempotent at least 14:33:43 We need the property that x <= f(x) 14:33:55 But 1 > f(1) = 0 14:34:02 ah I parsed it the wrong way 14:34:13 now I get what did you call increasing 14:34:29 yes, that’s interesting! 14:34:40 I've seen that property called extensive 14:34:48 and I think I glimpse already how does it make cubes 14:38:52 so, we should increment each of 0, …, n−1 some steps up, but at the same time leave a segment at the top intact. Hm, no, I don’t see cubes yet. That should somehow give us 2^(n−1) possibilities but that seems too many atm 14:39:23 How many vertices does an n-dimensional hypercube have 14:47:17 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:47:37 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:47:43 Hmm, what's a monad in the category of monads in some category? 14:48:17 For these categories, the category of monads is a poset so this should be not too tricky 14:53:55 I wonder if a monad in the category of monads works out to be a "commutative monad" in the same way as a monoid in the category of monoids is a commutative monoid 15:03:08 I think the answer to that is "no" 15:03:19 Monad(Monad(2)) is a poset with seven elements, I think 15:08:44 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:13:11 A monad on a preorder is a closure operator. 15:13:38 How many vertices does an n-dimensional hypercube have => ah I should have written 2^n but that’s even more than 2^(n−1) so I don’t yet see how could we have that many different monads there. I’ll draw some pictures later and then I think I’ll see 15:17:22 I believe we have 2^(n-1) monads 15:19:47 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:21:26 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:22:07 For a 2^n directed hypercube? 15:22:18 For the linear order of n elements 15:24:24 Not 2^n? 15:24:39 No 15:24:39 Choose any subset, and let those be the closed elements 15:26:13 Closure operators on a partially ordered set are uniquely determined by the set of closed elements 15:26:17 Take the linear order on {0,1,2}. There are four monads on that, which I have written as 012, 022, 112, 222 15:27:27 yeah, hmm 15:27:48 We can't take the empty set, and we must include the top element as closed 15:28:05 Right 15:28:23 It's the forced inclusion of the top that divides the number of options in two 15:28:30 Yeah 15:33:21 That implies we can't take the empty set 15:35:04 I think more generally, for any set of elements, they must have a "least common closure" 15:36:23 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:41:40 -!- craigo has joined. 15:51:47 [[Stackint]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1805) Created page with "'''Stackint''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. Its only method of storage is, as its name suggests, a stack of integers. ==Memory model== Stackint uses an a..." 15:52:30 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71363&oldid=71341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) 15:53:04 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71364&oldid=71360 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* S */ 16:19:23 -!- imode has joined. 16:20:12 -!- tromp has joined. 16:25:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:36:48 -!- tromp has joined. 16:39:10 -!- tromp_ has joined. 16:42:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:44:50 [[Talk:Stackint]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71365 * Willicoder * (+117) Created page with "How would I print anything? ~~~~" 16:48:55 [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71366&oldid=71213 * Palaiologos * (-80) discord server link 16:51:13 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:59:38 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71367&oldid=71322 * Baidicoot * (+702) 17:01:52 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71368&oldid=71367 * Baidicoot * (+32) /* Extensions */ 17:02:50 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71369&oldid=71368 * Baidicoot * (+38) /* Extensions */ 17:03:07 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71370&oldid=71369 * Baidicoot * (+4) /* Extensions */ 17:03:39 [[FarTooGeneral]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71371&oldid=71370 * Baidicoot * (+13) /* Extensions */ 17:09:07 [[Talk:Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71372&oldid=71365 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+257) 17:09:41 [[Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71373&oldid=71362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* Examples */ 17:10:37 [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71374&oldid=70653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Real Quines */ > /* Stackint */ 17:14:25 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:19:43 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71375&oldid=71330 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+391) /* Package dependencies */ 17:20:38 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71376&oldid=71375 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3783) /* Unnamed language 1 */ 17:21:37 [[Packlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71377 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3899) Created page with "'''Packlang''' is an esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Packages== Packages define a function and all variables it will need. ==Variables== To define a variable o..." 17:22:08 [[Stackint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71378&oldid=71373 * Willicoder * (+135) 17:22:16 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71379&oldid=71363 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) 17:22:47 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71380&oldid=71364 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* P */ + [[Packlang]] 17:25:33 [[User:Willicoder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71381&oldid=71266 * Willicoder * (+17) 17:26:28 [[User:Willicoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71382&oldid=71381 * Willicoder * (-5) 17:27:23 -!- tromp has joined. 17:27:46 I didn't get to figuring out what is the difference between ##x and #x and even ###x channels on freenode, someone willing to explain? 17:28:15 from what I know, ##x channels don't have a strict topic, but for instance this channel doesn't have a strict topic too, but it's not prefixed with ## 17:29:46 recall that Freenode is ostensibly a resource for open source software projects, not a general chat platform 17:29:57 > Channels on freenode fall into one of two categories. Primary channels, which begin with a single # character, are reserved for on-topic projects. If you’d like to take over one of these channels, then you’ll need to be associated in some way with the project in question. Topical, or ‘about’ channels, begin with two # characters, and these are allocated on a first-come, first-served basis to the 17:29:59 :1:36: error: parse error on input ‘of’ 17:30:03 first person who registers it with ChanServ. 17:31:27 in theory all channels that start with a single # should be related to an open source software project of the same name 17:31:46 however there are many grandfathered exceptions 17:32:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:32:27 I'm not aware of a special meaning for ###, I imagine it would be treated the same as ## as far as network-wide policy goes 17:32:27 [[Talk:Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71383&oldid=71372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+316) 17:32:42 and none of this has any direct relation to how strictly the ops of the channel enforce any stated topic 17:33:19 I don't think off-topic chat in a #-channel puts you at risk of losing it or anything 17:35:45 fair point 17:38:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:38:53 -!- tromp has joined. 17:48:09 [[Talk:Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71384&oldid=20039 * Willicoder * (+68) 17:48:19 [[Talk:Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71385&oldid=71384 * Willicoder * (+90) 17:51:35 [[Talk:Stackint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71386&oldid=71383 * Willicoder * (+119) 18:00:48 This channel in particular probably works out fine as far as policy goes, considering we are _in fact_, not just de jure, associated with esolangs.org 18:07:24 yeah 18:07:42 and #trains is the official project channel of https://github.com/lexande/trainbot 18:07:45 :P 18:07:46 Which would make a good case for #esolangs 18:08:08 But as far as I'm aware nobody's has been asking the question. 18:08:18 (loudly enough to matter) 18:12:42 [[Stackint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71387&oldid=71378 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Commands */ 18:13:18 Do you have comments about my (incomplete) set of Magic: the Gathering cards? I would also want the help with rendering templates (especially graphics and fonts). 18:16:32 I may also later write a export template for HTML, although I want to fix it so that if CSS is disabled then the text will be visible and if enabled (and implemented) then it can display the icons. 18:18:58 fungot: anything? 18:18:58 int-e: the guy complains how the lisp code alone. the pattern is 18:24:24 Now I added into the TeXnicard documentation about a common/ subdirectory for export templates, which contains files associated with the exported files for all card sets. For example, if you are exporting HTML, then icons and CSS may be included here; if you are exporting TeX, you may put a macro file here. 18:26:05 MSE has the copy_file function, although it requires the file to be copied for each exported card set. 18:33:44 [[+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71388&oldid=70555 * Willicoder * (+4) 19:03:50 -!- craigo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:28:47 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:43:35 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:44:20 -!- heroux has joined. 20:51:29 -!- heroux_ has joined. 20:55:20 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:55:22 -!- heroux_ has changed nick to heroux. 20:59:34 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:00:42 -!- heroux has joined. 21:53:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:55:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:56:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:04:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:08:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:23:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:24:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:40:27 I am not the only SQLite user who wants NNTP access to their forum; it look like there is one other guy too, who like to do so. 22:42:08 Is it your brother? 22:43:59 No. 22:44:07 It is some other guy that I don't know. 23:04:36 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:19:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 2020-04-24: 00:06:37 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:16:15 gforth's socket library is surprisingly straightforward. 01:09:44 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:10:36 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:30:19 Oh? 02:33:43 -!- tromp has joined. 02:38:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:15:55 [[COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71389 * Wzkchem5 * (+12162) Created page with "The '''Computation-Oriented Virtual Infection of Disks, version 2019 (COVID-19)''' is an esoteric programming language. It ''infects'' the hard drive by making copies of the s..." 03:53:59 yeah, it's literally just "create a socket, pass around a buffer, receive into that buffer, do stuff with the buffer." 04:24:35 That's rather straightforward. 05:27:08 [[1+/Snippets]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71390 * TwilightSparkle * (+98) Created page with "== Easy == == Medium == == Hard == == Insane == == Obviously Medium-Graded == == Legendary ==" 06:38:42 shachaf: hey there! LTNS. 06:53:53 [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71391&oldid=65987 * Cortex * (+155) Added a command from CHIQRSX9+ 07:00:15 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:06:59 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:07:39 -!- clog has joined. 07:09:36 -!- tromp has joined. 07:22:04 hi dnm 07:23:55 shachaf: How goes it? 07:27:06 -!- xelxebar_ has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in). 07:27:26 -!- xelxebar has joined. 07:27:53 p. unenergetic nowadays 07:34:48 shachaf: Ah. Understandable. How are you doing with the whole COVID-19 lockdown? 07:36:41 Hmm, I'm not sure I should talk about it in here. 07:38:15 I have been staying at home for about a month and a half. 07:39:04 I guess a bit longer than that. 09:21:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:47:21 [[Talk:Modulo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71392 * OsmineYT * (+226) Created page with "== Missing commands == There are no commands yet, because I need to figure out how to search commands with args from raw string in Python 3. --~~~~" 09:51:27 [[COVID-19]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71393&oldid=71389 * Wzkchem5 * (-156) 09:53:22 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:53:51 [[Talk:COVID-19]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71394 * Wzkchem5 * (+279) Created page with "Hello, I'm the original author wzkchem5. I'm working on writing a 99 bottles of beer program using COVID-19. The page will only be made officially public after the 99 bottles..." 09:54:29 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:54:43 [[User:Wzkchem5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71395 * Wzkchem5 * (+37) Created page with "This page is intentionally left blank" 11:19:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:21:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:21:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:33:28 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:58:32 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 11:58:43 fungot, can markov chains replace women? 11:58:43 kspalaiologos: take define-syntax, make your bfasm be a backend. i'm sure they've got plans for it. :p 11:59:12 wow! fungot mentioned bfasm 11:59:13 kspalaiologos: it's the internet. the man sounds like a good, clean scheme parser written in c. 11:59:19 can't believe 12:21:22 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:21:58 hi 12:26:42 any thoughts on the substrings of the thue morse sequence? 12:41:43 [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71396&oldid=71391 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) add 1,3 in name 12:44:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:59:56 -!- tromp has joined. 13:00:49 [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71397&oldid=71396 * Willicoder * (-77) 13:01:35 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 13:03:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 13:05:22 [[Unified HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71398&oldid=71397 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+103) cat adds 13:22:32 -!- Phoenix_Rising26 has joined. 13:24:48 [[The Past]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+431) Created page with "'''The Past''' is a time-traveling esolang by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Memory model== The Past uses an arbitrary-size signed integer accumulator. ==Commands== {| c..." 13:27:23 [[The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71400&oldid=71399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) 13:29:05 [[Talk:The Past]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71401 * Willicoder * (+130) Created page with "How would the go back command even work? ~~~~" 13:31:07 -!- Phoenix_Rising26 has left. 13:39:01 [[W (A)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71402&oldid=70237 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) replace deleted repo with clone 13:39:03 [[Resource]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71403&oldid=68261 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) replace deleted repo with clone 13:39:05 [[Tq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71404&oldid=69732 * LegionMammal978 * (+11) replace deleted repo with clone 13:54:07 [[Talk:The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71405&oldid=71401 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+284) 14:13:42 [[Talk:Stopwatch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71406 * LegionMammal978 * (+154) Created page with "What's the difference between a step and a split? ~~~~" 14:14:44 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71407 * YamTokTpaFa * (+5110) I think I have perfectly made the proof. 14:16:32 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71408&oldid=71356 * YamTokTpaFa * (+178) 14:16:58 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71409&oldid=71408 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) WTF hyphen. 14:18:51 [[Talk:PureBrainz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71410 * LegionMammal978 * (+156) Created page with "Do you currently have a Python interpreter written? ~~~~" 14:21:15 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71411&oldid=71407 * YamTokTpaFa * (+196) /* Assumptions */ assign clarification 14:33:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:43:14 [[Talk:Modulo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71412&oldid=71392 * LegionMammal978 * (+196) 15:02:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:08:10 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 15:11:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:20:02 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:23:13 [[Talk:I like frog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71413&oldid=71156 * LegionMammal978 * (+691) 15:23:35 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:30:34 kspalaiologos: http://freenode.net/kb/answer/namespaces 15:32:22 that naming policy is enforced only when the ops need to interfere in who owns a channel, typically in taking over unused old channel names 15:33:52 so the policy is mostly just a suggestion, and many channels go against it 16:04:39 -!- imode has joined. 17:10:34 I saw someone's solution to sorites paradox is that it remains a heap as long as some of the sand is on top of the other sand 17:10:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:21:52 -!- Grimpoteuthis has joined. 17:22:26 Hello 17:33:33 Hello . 17:37:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:39:02 -!- tromp has joined. 17:40:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:32 -!- tromp has joined. 17:51:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:57:09 Does anyone know the name for what I'm doing with combinators here? https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators 17:58:05 Or a better way to approach it? 17:58:47 I'm basically poking around for binary operators on subsets of combinators that form quasigroups, semigroups, maybe even a group? 18:00:45 question #4 at the bottom is basically the whole point 18:04:26 my takeaway from this page is that I hate postfix notation for combinatory logic 18:06:37 postfix notation is deceptively simple. 18:08:00 1. is a cute puzzle... if you let T = (\x. x x) (\P x y. (\x. x x) P y x) then T x y ->> T y x. (Now do the abstraction elminiation and be happy.) 18:08:59 -!- tromp has joined. 18:09:21 int-e: cool! 18:10:11 I'm just dipping my toe in the water with combinators. Still have a lot to learn. 18:12:28 I think 3. is a very interesting question too. I have an intuitive feel for it, but haven't formalized it yet. 18:13:32 2. is standard pairing: (\x y p. p x y) 18:13:40 I don't understand 3. 18:15:03 4. probably has some silly (artificial) solution that embeds both ` and a representation of the starting term 18:17:33 3 is stating when is <*> closed under application 18:17:43 but what does that mean? 18:17:47 By definition it's closed under * 18:18:33 if x, y are in <*> when is (xy) in <*> where the operation there is application, not * 18:18:55 also what about silly things like \x y. x y 18:19:23 (that is, a deliberately binary version of I) 18:20:23 Let's call that I*, is actually pretty weird. For x, y in , x*y is always recursive 18:20:38 so it just blows up my interpretter whenever I try to compute it 18:20:39 haha 18:20:44 I guess that's just ` really 18:21:18 or maybe I'm thinking of I** 18:21:22 I forget which one I tried 18:21:39 So okay, 3 may be a difficult question... but why is it interesting? 18:22:12 Well, I'm interested in doing subturing computation in a context closer to a group 18:22:38 3 isn't terribly important, but it'd be nice to have 18:22:58 that way I could generate the set <*>, then the group operation would just be regular function application 18:23:11 maybe a quasigroup, or whatever 18:23:20 since associativity is probably a no go with any useful computation 18:23:32 just some way to do algebra on programs 18:24:30 associativity moves you close to string rewriting (semi-Thue systems). 18:24:51 Which are Turing-complete but also awkward to actually use. 18:25:13 It's been a long time since I've looked at semi-Thue systems. Lemme read the wiki real quick 18:26:03 Ah, I see. Yeah associativity would basically give you a semi-thue system 18:27:11 The crucial thing I want is for all x in <*> to have x^-1 in <*> where xx^(-1) = e 18:27:21 not necessarily matching on the left and right sides 18:27:56 either under the * operation, or under application (which I don't think is possible) 18:30:01 and x^(-1) unique of course 18:31:05 I believe it's called a quasigroup 18:34:57 I suspect this can be done but probably not in a satisfactory way; what I'd try is write a combinator that can distinguish S, K, and itself, and basically does symbolic evaluation on top of that. So... eww. 18:36:41 Hmm, sounds unsatisfactory. I'm going to spend some time exploring subsets of combinators and see what I can come up with. Even if I don't get to the point of doing useful computation, it would be cool to find something isomorphic to some algebraic structures 18:40:05 when you work at the level of quarks and gluons, don't be surprised when you have to build atoms. 18:58:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:06:01 touche 19:06:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:07:35 imode: but you don't have to enjoy it 19:11:40 who said anything about enjoying it. :P 19:20:33 -!- tromp has joined. 19:32:51 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:43:24 have you tried the combinator birds book, to mock a mockingbird 19:44:41 i feel like any inverse would work only a set that is not turing complete 19:55:58 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:12:50 -!- Sei has joined. 20:13:34 -!- Sei has left. 21:19:54 -!- Grimpoteuthis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:28:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 21:34:20 I am trying to figure out how to make the random pack function in TeXnicard. I have some ideas, but I thought one thing that would be needed is to be able to pair cards together so that one card requires or excludes another card or alters the probability of including that other card (or group of cards), but I am not sure what to do about that. 21:34:26 Do you have some ideas? 21:35:02 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:22:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:26:15 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 23:16:51 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:21:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:22:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:32:45 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:32:56 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:33:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:35:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:35:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:35:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:36:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:45:56 -!- noomy has changed nick to amnesiac. 23:46:22 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71414&oldid=71376 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+221) 2020-04-25: 00:24:04 How many points you earn in the BSD boggle game? 00:33:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:41:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:43:35 -!- imode has joined. 00:46:12 -!- amnesiac has changed nick to noomy. 00:59:23 -!- Grimpoteuthis has joined. 00:59:59 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:00:11 -!- j-bot has joined. 01:11:23 -!- Grimpoteuthis has left ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)"). 01:24:59 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:26:32 -!- imode has joined. 02:04:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:25:11 Now I added the temperature in the status window 02:25:31 Now it includes: temperature, mail, system load average, memory usage, and date/time. 02:33:31 PostgreSQL supports ORDER BY in non-window aggregate functions, and is something I wanted to have in SQLite too, since it is useful with some aggregate functions. If ORDER BY can be used in non-window aggregate functions, then FIRST_VALUE, LAST_VALUE, and NTH_VALUE should also be usable as aggregate functions, too. 03:31:45 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:33:04 -!- sprocklem has joined. 03:59:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:19:02 (dup == =)?dup == = 05:19:15 You must put a line break in place of the question mark. 06:06:10 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 06:06:28 Do you like Solar Hijri calendar? 07:09:55 fizzie: Does your version of curl have the double-EOF bug fix yet? 07:28:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:31:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:41:18 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:09:16 [[Happy Fantasy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71415&oldid=71359 * Hakerh400 * (+3) 08:14:36 [[Gummy Bear]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71416&oldid=71327 * Hakerh400 * (+11) /* Output */ 08:32:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:20:17 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:20:56 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:21:29 -!- rodgort has joined. 09:22:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:24:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:42:36 -!- aloril has joined. 09:49:35 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:59:31 -!- aloril has joined. 10:55:08 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:21:05 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:23:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:24:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:44:14 hello 11:46:33 -!- tromp_ has joined. 11:50:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:14:38 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71417&oldid=71379 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+56) /* Languages */ 12:22:47 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71418&oldid=71414 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+665) 12:59:02 [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71419&oldid=69337 * YamTokTpaFa * (+434) /* I think I have proven A14!4 to be Turing-complete. */ new section 13:00:18 shachaf: I think it probably does, if I remember right what the bug was. At least a single EOF on stdin is enough when pasting to ix.io. 13:09:52 -!- craigo has joined. 13:10:33 -!- craigo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:16:26 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 13:43:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:16:45 Hello all 14:25:06 hi! 14:25:09 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 14:32:28 Zuma-themed impossible(?) puzzle: suppose you have N types of balls and an endless sequence Z → {1, ..., N} of them, such that a ball at each position is picked uniformly at random independent of all others. You can insert a ball of your choice between the 0th and 1st places in this sequence, and then if that makes a sequence of 3 or more balls of the same kind, they vanish, the sequence collapses and the same check (are there 3 or mo 14:32:29 re balls of the same kind at the cut position) happens again and again if necessary. What is the mean count of vanishes? vanished balls? 14:34:51 why is that a function from Z, not N? 14:35:13 at first I thought to allow placing a ball at any position, but I think this would make the problem ill-posed: I’d suppose there would be a possibility to make any count of vanishes but obviously not an infinite one 14:35:48 The problem with using Z being that you have to specify what happens to the indices after removal 14:37:15 int-e: two one-sided subsequences after the cut should then concatenate back 14:37:56 and as in this case we remember the position of the cut point, we could put zeroth index anywhere we like 14:40:17 Ah I misunderstood... 14:40:56 so if you have 1122 and place a ball in the middle, you get two choices... which one do you pick? 14:41:12 about N instead of Z: hmm I think that wouldn’t be neat enough; in the game if you happen to remove balls from the end of the chain, and there is a cluster of ≥3 balls right near them, that cluster won’t wanish, but in this formulation it would (and if it wouldn’t, that would be a boring setting) 14:42:11 it's okay, I though it would collapse once and then you'd get to pick another ball 14:42:24 I didn't read properly 14:42:49 *thought (nor type, apparently.) 14:43:16 so if you have 1122 and place a ball in the middle, you get two choices... which one do you pick? => hm well maybe then we should first consider the setting where the ball is picked randomly not by us, and again uniformly of course 14:43:41 so basically... don't place any ball at all 14:44:03 also I think I word such questions in not the most understandable way too 14:44:16 int-e: yeah 14:44:30 "also I think...": I think you phrased that concern perfectly. 14:45:20 maybe I should name things more often 14:45:53 so I would backlink to them instead of using ambiguous anaphoric pronouns 14:46:48 But hmm. The first collapse is special, but after that we're always faced with a random sequence that has a 1/(N-1) chance of equal balls in the middle instead of 1/N. So this should be quite feasible. 14:48:53 don’t forget we need more than two, so we can’t just compare the ends 14:49:40 Oh sure but that's not a huge deal. 14:50:10 btw I have no solution to this, of course. I wanted to announce I won the main game mode in Zuma’s Revenge, but then I thought: wait, that can be made more on-topic 14:50:19 The probability that the first collapse happens should be (1 + (N-1)/N + (N-1)^2/N^2)/N^3, and for subsequent collapses it's (1 + (N-1)/N + (N-1)^2/N^2)/((N-1)N^2) instead. 14:50:51 I hoped I’d come up with something less tractable :D 14:52:11 full notes ;-) http://paste.debian.net/1142975/ 14:52:30 Oh wait, that's for four. 14:52:33 Stupid fenceposts 14:52:58 So the probabilities should be (1 + (N-1)/N)/N^2 and (1 + (N-1)/N)/((N-1)N) instead. 14:53:55 `? fencepost blaming 14:53:58 fencepost blaming? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:56:46 Basically two things happen here: a) rather than looking at the colors, look at whether adjacent balls have the same color b) after a collapse, there are only N-1 possible colors for the two adjacent balls, but otherwise they are still uniformly random. So the probability of equality increases to the aforementioned 1/(N-1) instead of 1/N at that one place. 14:59:18 (2n^2 - 3n + 1)/(n^4 - n^3 - 2n^2 + n) <-- look at this beauty (is it correct? who knows. it might be.) 15:00:16 that's for the expected number of collapses 15:00:42 -!- haavard has quit (*.net *.split). 15:01:50 -!- haavard has joined. 15:03:39 Funny, we cannot simply multiply that by 1 + 2/(1-1/n) to get the expected number of balls removed, because only one of the two cases captured in (1 + (N-1)/N)/N^2 can be extended to both sides. 15:03:51 (I'm mixing capital and lower case n, sorry.) 15:06:09 -!- sparr has quit (*.net *.split). 15:06:09 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 15:06:27 I prefer the lower case one, honestly, reserving the upper case one for the natural numbers. 15:06:44 -!- sparr has joined. 15:08:12 -!- divergence has joined. 15:09:28 -!- diverger has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:11:28 int-e: yeah I forgot there would be conflation in ASCII 15:12:03 -!- myndzi has joined. 15:12:33 `? prefixes 15:12:34 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =. 15:12:47 ^celebrate 15:12:47 \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/ 15:12:59 (and ℕ renders poorly in my client, and it’s 5 keypresses to input with my AHK script, so I almost never use it) 15:13:01 myndzi is still broken it seems 15:13:19 ~ 1+1 15:13:30 \o/ 15:14:11 @metar lowi 15:14:13 LOWI 251450Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW060 SCT070 BKN100 21/04 Q1007 NOSIG 15:19:02 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71420&oldid=71418 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+259) /* Functions */ 15:20:51 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71421&oldid=71380 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) /* F */ add [[function x(y)]] 15:29:19 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71422&oldid=70490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+358) /* Packlang */ 15:32:37 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71423&oldid=71422 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+192) /* Stackint */ 15:33:30 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71424&oldid=71417 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Languages */ 15:42:21 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71425&oldid=71423 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1361) /* PlusOrMinus */ 15:42:47 [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71426&oldid=70739 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1380) /* Resources */ 15:43:34 [[PlusOrMinus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71427&oldid=71426 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+141) /* Resources */ 15:55:49 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 16:35:20 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:45:02 -!- imode has joined. 16:51:34 I just placed a couple of GEL in a looped world in The Powder Toy and watch it fall 16:55:11 poor little Tron particles don’t know they could wrap around and insted they keep crashing into gel >:D 16:56:38 arseniiv: heh I wonder whether you'd like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23AY8Kdx00 (especially after the 1:40 mark) 16:57:25 -!- tromp has joined. 17:00:20 int-e: ahhhhhhhh!!! 17:02:19 I just saw a captcha that involved arranging puzzle pieces (on dreamviews.com). Apparently from KeyCAPTCHA 17:20:38 I see a lot of people praising Forth for its ease in implementation (almost to the level of occult worship), but I wonder if Tcl (or a similar language) would be a contender for ease of implementation. 17:20:44 int-e: awhile ago, after several tries I got how to make a hard caramel succesfully, including unsticking it from the surface when it’s cold (I pour it onto baking paper) and now rarely I make some and crush it into small pieces to use instead of sugar for tea or something. I like it’s like a real glass and maybe it can be glassblowed (I hadn’t tried) and it would be cool. Hm I’ll google that, maybe someone had done that already 17:21:51 imode: due to code quotes? (Though I don’t know almost a thing about Tcl) 17:22:25 arseniiv: mostly due to the fact that, at its base, it's just a list of commands that's specially formatted. 17:22:39 I think Forth may be _easier_ than Tcl, but a Tcl implementation is not especially difficult. 17:23:29 http://oldblog.antirez.com/post/picol.html Like, this is a reasonably straightforward and functional Tcl implementation in 550 lines of reasonably natural C code. 17:23:40 how about a really bare-bones Scheme? 17:23:57 on the gradient of "I can hack this up in less than a day" to "This is a multi-month project", I see Tcl as sitting a bit to the left above Forth. it's slightly more complex due to quoting. 17:24:27 Yeah, that seems about right. 17:24:43 It's not literally the easiest but nor is it that difficult, as far as these things go. 17:24:43 I don’t particularly like concatenative languages without quoting though. It’s hard to go without when you taste it 17:25:08 I don't mind them. honestly all I really care about is implementation simplicity. 17:25:36 you can write good abstractions and tools in just about any language, but it takes more work in some than others. 17:25:51 I can write good concatenative code without quotes. 17:26:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:28:16 it makes me wonder if there's some middleground between Tcl and Forth, without excess quoting and tokenization rules. 17:30:20 Q-BASIC^W I’ll show myself out 17:30:32 that picol interpreter, for example, is like 2x what I'd consider reasonable. 17:30:35 hah. 17:32:44 I wish I could turn Modal into something useful. it's deceptively simple. 17:33:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:34:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:48:49 pikhq, imode: there's a forth implementation on IOCCC (admittedly not within the size limit, but with a small external library over an interpreter), but no Tcl in IOCCC 17:51:29 b_jonas: I remember reading that when digging into Forth for the first time. 17:51:59 was neat. 17:53:07 there has got to be other "no-parse" languages out there, right? 17:56:51 -!- tromp has joined. 18:16:03 I try to win over The Powder Toy by making graphical designs out of experiments in it 18:16:19 though I’ve yet to use any of them 18:18:01 for example https://i.postimg.cc/G2v813Sn/traced-powdertoy.png 18:18:20 but that was thoroughly edited in Inkscape 18:25:04 also if someone knows Verve Painter by Taron (hope I remember names correctly), there is a rotating canvas mode which is neeeaaat. Even if you don’t know anything about drawing, it amounts to some great things 18:32:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:43:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:43:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:46:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:49:29 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:52:15 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:12:17 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:17:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone too far). 19:47:25 I found this comment in some text mentioning tarot cards: "The Fool is given the number 0 in the Trumps, and as a C programmer from a long time back I love any 0-indexed array." 19:48:24 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 19:48:24 -!- sparr has joined. 19:51:21 While in many decks the Fool is numbered zero, that isn't it's value. I have been told before why it is numbered zero (I asked them why), they said it represents the beginning of a journey, which I suppose I can see. Although depending on the game, its value may either be the XXII of trumps, or it may have an entirely different meaning (you can play it even if you would otherwise be required to follow suit, but it always loses the tric 19:53:10 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:55:45 I had ideas about tarot poker, where the Fool (or Excuse) counts as both 0 and XXII, similar to the ace in the ordinary poker. 20:07:29 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71428&oldid=71420 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+220) 20:09:41 I have thought of some ideas about tarot poker. Trumps could sometimes be treated as their own suit, and sometimes as cards of the same rank of any of the other suits (including cards that do not exist), so that you can have a "mixed flush" and "mixed straight flush", in addition to a "pure flush" and "pure straight flush". Five of a kind is also possible. 20:15:49 -!- ArthurStrong has left. 20:20:41 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 20:34:13 -!- grumble has changed nick to rawr. 21:12:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:29:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:45:35 int-e: making interesting progress on that combinator stuff https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators 21:45:49 Switched to using infix + to denote the binary operations which has made it much easier to read 21:46:57 In particular, https://wiki.forder.cc/wiki/Combinators#Associative_and_commutative_examples is interesting 21:50:43 that postfix notation... 21:51:13 (I've used Unlambda. This messes up my brain.) 21:51:56 Yeah, the interpreter I wrote uses postfix, which is why I keep switching 21:52:38 But I've started using infix for the most part in the wiki with + representing my custom binary functions and * representing application 21:52:52 But this is moving the goalpost from {S,K} and any kind of TC-ness. 21:53:21 Just trying to get a feel for what associative and commutative look like 21:53:30 with the ultimate objective of going back to TC-ness 21:53:32 You can /represent/ a lot of algebraic structures, obviously. And yes, Booleans are perhaps the most natural. 21:54:20 Yeah, I was thinking about that today that with a little work it would be easy enough to construct a of the natural numbers using church numerals, but it wouldn't bring me any closer to what I'm going for 21:55:12 Also, I'm already fairly familiar with programming lambda calculus (and, by extension, Combinatory Logic) so you should not feel bad if none of this surprises me. 21:55:37 Also remembered that if is generated by n elements and contains m elements then the associativity test is nm^2 rather than m^3 21:55:50 haha, thanks. I've only had a few cursory passes with it. learning as I gol 21:56:26 Which makes the associativity test m^2 if |C| = 1 21:59:02 The section on <`T``> was a little surprising to me. It wasn't immediately obvious to me that a non-trivial finite set could be generated using only I as the basis. 22:26:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:29:38 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:36:45 How common is custom (and mostly meaningless) headers for commentary in Usenet? 22:43:41 -!- tromp has joined. 22:43:47 I have seen it more than once. 22:48:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:53:16 [[Cortex language 3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71429 * Cortex * (+752) Created page with "[[Cortex language 3]] is a general term for an esolang, named after and defined by [[User:Cortex|]] operationally defined as "'''''any languge where ;' creates a..." 22:56:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:16:12 -!- tromp has joined. 23:17:31 What is the format of the .mcm file produced by Mednafen? It seems to be a screenshot file (since I told it to create a screenshot, and that is the file that resulted), but I don't know what format it is (ImageMagick does not know how to open it). 23:20:11 I found something that says that it is a movie, and that it starts with "MDFNMOVI", although that does not seem to be the case. 23:21:49 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:24:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:24:38 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:26:09 "movie"; sounds like it records game inputs, one per frame 23:26:41 . o O ( Details are to be found in the source code. ) 23:28:31 I didn't tell it to record a movie (and the documentation and quick help says F9 is for screen snapshots, not movie), and it doesn't have the format that it says is the format for movies, anyways, although the filename is the same as what the documentation about the movie says it is. 23:33:53 I'm not sure what you expected from us. 23:34:34 (But this is true for almost all your questions, so maybe I shouldn't complain.) 23:35:37 it's a movie. 23:36:12 Maybe it is, but it doesn't have the format that I read about, nor was I trying to record a movie. 23:36:25 http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Mednafen/MCM.html 23:36:40 sounds like a pebcak problem. 23:36:54 imode: I found that, hence the description above. 23:36:55 I read that, and, the file doesn't start with "MDFNMOVI", so it isn't a file of the format documented there. 23:37:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:37:07 zzo38: Have you tried "file" on the thing 23:37:26 zzo38: Also you actually have the file, we don't. I don't know how many of us are using Mednafen; I don't. 23:37:52 O, "file" says it is a gzip file; I can try that. 23:39:03 Yes, it does seem to be; it still doesn't start with "MDFNMOVI" though; it starts with "MEDNAFENSVESTATE". 23:41:12 OK, trying rgbff on it produces a screen-shot, although not the one I expected. 23:41:17 So... it's misnamed and ancient? 23:41:59 (Apparently that magic string was changed in 2012) 23:42:52 I'm not sure why I'm looking into this... I guess I just like hitting search engines with search terms. 23:43:34 I get a picture which is a screenshot from the correct game, although the state is not the state that I commanded it to make a screenshot of. 23:59:29 -!- Train has joined. 23:59:33 Hello. 2020-04-26: 00:00:40 Hello 00:00:50 I've finished my esolang at last. 00:02:36 Does anybody want to hear more? I also need to prove it's turing complete. 00:02:44 I'm almost certain that it is. 00:04:22 OK. What esolang is that? 00:04:38 2d tape. 00:05:05 It uses a 2d program with two pointers. 00:06:01 18 instructions. 00:06:27 One pointer moves in cardinal directions if the other pointer is passing over a cardinal trigger. 00:07:01 OK. If you write the document, then we can read it. 00:07:14 ok. 00:07:27 Should i just post a couple of programs? 00:07:52 I think you should post documentation, although you can post programs too if you want to do. 00:07:59 Okay. 00:08:07 Documentation is not finished yet. 00:08:15 I have an interpreter. 00:08:17 OK 00:08:34 So, here is Hello, world! 00:08:45 WcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcWcO!dlrow ,olleH 00:08:50 Here is a quine: 00:08:56 c 00:09:12 OK 00:09:14 Here is a CAT program: 00:09:15 SdcN 00:09:20 note that it is 8 bytes 00:09:29 Infinite loop: 00:09:32 SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanEcO 00:09:42 Sorry thats the truth machine 00:09:45 Eight bytes? How is that? 00:09:50 Two rows. 00:10:02 Top row is SdcN, bottom row is 4 spaces. 00:10:16 And here is the behemoth of all of my programs. 00:10:38 Ah, OK. 00:10:39 The ungolfed addition program, taking inputs that sum to any number less than or equal to 9 00:10:46 ---SdaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaV 00:10:51 357 bytes. 00:11:18 Well, it is golfed a little. 00:12:58 What do you think? 00:14:28 Well, I wouldn't know much yet, until I read the documentation, I think. 00:14:48 Alright. Time to make some documentation. 00:15:13 Hey, do you want to go to hackchat? It's easier to chat on than this. 00:15:43 I do not even know what is that, but I think this IRC is easily enough to chat on. 00:16:02 hackchat is a minimalist chat application. 00:16:06 Extremely secure. 00:17:45 I won't download any program, but if I can telnet to it, then I can try, I suppose. However, I think this IRC is better; it is where the discussions are for this and there is logs, which is also very useful, I think. 00:17:58 it's online 00:18:00 a website 00:18:16 and hackchat supports full latex and code highlighting 00:18:24 I'll quickly set up a chatroom. 00:18:50 https://hack.chat/?esoteric 00:19:38 I don't want to use a web site for the chat. If it is a telnet then I can try 00:19:50 Why not a website? 00:20:29 For one thing, is not compatible with my computer, also WWW is rather hostile 00:20:41 What? 00:20:43 (And, I am not sure that I believe you about "full latex highlighting") 00:20:50 Are you running some weird linux thing? 00:20:59 Or homebrew something 00:22:11 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:29 I am using Linux. Although, that isn't really relevant; IRC or telnet is better for interactive chat anyways, and the protocols are simpler you can use them without other software 00:23:17 So you don't have a browser. 00:23:25 -!- j-bot has joined. 00:23:28 I do, but not one compatible with hackchat 00:23:50 What? 00:23:51 For playing GURPS on the computer, since I am the only player at this time, I just use a direct connection, together with ts and tee for logging. It is simple and works well. 00:23:57 Oh right. 00:24:32 (I would also avoid using the web browser as much as possible; it is the worst program on the computer. The other programs are better designed.) 00:24:40 Okay. 00:25:44 (Although I didn't like the other IRC clients either, so I wrote my own; it isn't so difficult to write, really.) 00:25:55 Agreed, 00:28:39 Some people say IRC doesn't do that, NNTP doesn't do that, etc but that is not quite correct, because the protocol doesn't have to do those things; some things are independent from the protocol, and the user can use the client software they like, the server operator can set up and configure the server software they like. 00:29:15 . o O ( Just make an electron app *runs* ) 00:29:16 (I wrote my own NNTP client software too, actually. And my own NNTP server software.) 00:29:23 Nice. 00:29:25 Very nice. 00:29:33 (I'm really unhappy about Electron.) 00:30:38 I don't like Electron either. Although, if you document the protocol and then users can use whichever app they prefer, Electron or otherwise. 00:34:10 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:34:25 -!- j-bot has joined. 00:35:31 I am writing out the documentation. 00:42:54 OK 00:44:12 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:52:24 int-e: I am boycotting electrons. Positive charge only for me. 00:53:43 Unfortunately I have two Electron programs on my computer, though one of them is usually not running. 00:54:21 Can you rewrite the program to not use Electron? 00:54:59 Yes, you can rewrite programs. 00:55:02 It's a lot of effort. 00:55:37 I can but it's a lot of effort. 00:55:51 One program is signal-desktop, which some people like to use to communicate. 00:56:12 I could reimplement the protocol and I'm sure I'd end up with something better because this program is very buggy. 00:56:34 Hrm, why does that need the DOM part? 00:56:53 (nodejs is perhaps only half as terrible as Electron) 00:57:07 It's a chat program with a user interface. 00:57:19 Oh 00:57:25 Oh, you mean, why can't I just use the existing implementation? 00:57:32 Sorry, brain fart. I should've been able to recognize "signal". 00:57:49 I guess I could do that, though it would probably force me to use JavaScript and other nonsense. 00:58:22 Nah,I thought about generic signals and didn't see why it needed a GUI. 00:58:43 Node.js isn't that bad; it is a way to write programs in JavaScript. But, there are other programming languages too; they shouldn't need JavaScript for everything, because there is many other one for different purposes; some others are better for the other purpose. 00:58:59 ... 00:59:29 Also, you could use WebAssembly too if you want to; if you have a recently enough version of Node.js then you can also write in WebAssembly. But, you shouldn't need Node.js at all if you prefer to write in C instead, I think. 01:01:32 . o O ( Customer: "I want to cook a pot of tea." Programmer: "Okay, let's start with this food factory over there..." ) 01:02:25 @metar koak 01:02:27 KOAK 260053Z 28013KT 10SM SCT200 BKN250 19/12 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP166 T01940117 01:02:41 It is too hot for tea. 01:03:08 I was outside today! What an experience, being outdoors. The weather was nice. 01:03:51 Yes, it is nice here too, and I was also outside today. But with this virus, I am not leaving the property where I live, although I will go in the back yard sometimes. 01:05:09 I do not have a back yard. 01:05:58 Does anyone know what character is used on a traditional forth prompt? 01:06:02 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:06:04 I'm using $ right now 01:07:09 pop open gforth if you want an example. 01:07:35 yeah, I was going to do that. Just wondering if anyone could answer it faster than it takes me to type apt install gforth && gforth 01:08:11 Interesting 01:08:13 no prompt at all 01:09:11 The traditional Forth prompt is "ok" 01:09:22 yeah, adding that too 01:09:39 ed has the best prompt 01:12:11 how did this happen: bash: ed: command not found 01:12:45 I guess I'm not editing files much these days ;) 01:15:50 Looking for feedback on https://code.forder.cc/esolang/skiforth before I add it to the wiki. 01:15:59 Any thoughts are much appreciated, bbl 01:18:40 Without looking... just put it on the wiki? It can be edited and improved there after all... 01:19:18 yeah, will likely do tomorrow 01:31:30 -!- tromp has joined. 01:36:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:38:41 -!- Train has joined. 01:38:58 I'm back. 01:39:04 With documentation. 01:40:43 But i must go. 01:40:48 See you later. 01:40:55 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:57:03 I was able to get a screen shot from the .mcm file using the command: zcat | tail -c+33 | rgbff 160 144 But I still am not sure why it is the wrong screenshot. (Trying different offsets doesn't seem to help; I tried that) 01:58:29 I wrote that here so that we can remember its working. 02:26:32 . o O ( /join ##zzo38-notes ) 02:31:24 (Maybe you can tell what system the game is for by the command I used.) 02:49:46 int-e: Are you into Gröbner bases? 02:51:26 ... 02:52:16 `quote 1306 02:52:17 1306) int-e: Do you like this? It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it. 02:52:50 OK, but you seem like the sort of person who might be into them. 02:53:10 I guess I should have just looked at the logs before asking. 02:53:42 I have a reasonable idea what they are, and none about the fine points (like choosing good monomial orders). 02:56:43 I also shouldn't be awake right now. 02:57:22 OK, I read your explanation from 2014 and it makes sense. 03:19:34 -!- tromp has joined. 03:24:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:32:25 * pikhq snickers a bit 03:33:21 hichaf 03:43:18 Can you make Fermat's Last Theorem in Magic: the Gathering? 03:46:36 Also, if your opponent concedes a subgame, are you allowed to concede the subgame at the same time (to force the subgame to end in a draw)? 03:56:13 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71430&oldid=71339 * Cortex * (+66) 03:57:23 -!- Train has joined. 03:57:35 zzo? 03:58:20 I documented it. 03:58:33 Train: OK. 03:58:49 Here is the documentation: 03:58:58 Documentation for TrainCode 03:58:59 instruction pointer: 03:59:02 If it is any of ^V<>, change the direction of motion to the direction of the arrow. 03:59:04 direction of motion to right. Otherwise, set the direction of motion to down. 03:59:06 required direction. 04:00:55 Why don't you post it on esolang wiki instead? (I can interact with MediaWiki sites on my computer just fine, although you can't write on there if you do not have an account.) 04:01:14 I haven't made an account yet. 04:01:35 I'm asking you guys for feedback, and also because I need help proving the turing completeness. 04:01:38 You could also just post a text file, e.g. with sprunge, which is a simple paste bin 04:01:50 or cryptopaste 04:02:54 The advantage of sprunge is that you can use it either with a web browser or with curl, both to send and to receive, and no account is needed. 04:03:13 wait it supports curl 04:03:55 http://sprunge.us/7UDn3W 04:04:14 omg it does 04:04:25 How on earth did I not know this? 04:08:41 OK, it look like good to me. It won't be Turing complete unless it has unlimited memory, either by an unlimited number of cells or being able to store numbers of an unlimited range in each cell. 04:08:56 I've worked that much out. 04:09:05 (Even if it does, that isn't the only criteria for Turing completeness though) 04:09:11 I know. 04:09:22 It wasn 04:09:49 't actually Turing complete at first, but I added "n" to make it Turing complete. 04:12:48 Also, do you know how I could golf my addition program? 04:14:11 here it is: http://sprunge.us/CIxpGR 04:14:11 -!- tromp has joined. 04:14:13 From your examples, it look like the instruction grid is the same as the data grid, so maybe it is possible to be Turing complete by self-modifying code without the "n" command, although I am unsure of such a thing. I have not proven it either way. 04:14:42 Yes, you are correct. However, I don't think that it is possible for it to be Turing complete without "n". 04:15:23 If cells store numbers in an unlimited range, then possibly you can try to prove Turing completeness by a Minsky machine. 04:15:28 Here's my reasoning: it has to carry out a different set of instructions based on input, and it can't conditionally branch without it, due to the fact that it doesn't have the mathematical manpower. 04:15:55 I might change it to unlimited range instead of 1 byte. 04:16:27 With a limited grid and limited range of values in each cell, it won't be Turing complete. 04:16:32 I know. 04:16:47 But in a theoretical infinite case, it is Turing complete. 04:16:53 Just like brainfuck isn 04:17:01 't turing complete for a finite number of cells. 04:17:02 So you should change it to unlimited range, or else make the grid not wrap around (at least vertically, even if it does wrap around horizontally). 04:17:19 How would I go about I/O if I make it unlimited? 04:17:45 Input can still read a number in the range 0 to 255, and output can use the low 8-bits of the number. 04:18:03 Like the least significant 8 bits, or the most significant? 04:18:31 The least significant 8 bits. 04:18:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:18:43 Okay, so basically VALUE MOD 256 04:18:48 Yes. 04:19:01 Okie, modifiying the interpreter now. 04:19:21 It's great to talk to experts. 04:20:26 What about negative underflow? 04:21:51 Again, you can just use the low 8-bits, that is still defined for negative numbers, although the modulo operator in the programming language in use might not work with it; you can use "VALUE AND 255" if the programming language you use supports bitwise AND operator, then that would work. 04:22:27 So if I have -1, it wraps around to 255? 04:23:34 Yes, it is treated as 255 for purpose of output (although still store it as -1, if you want Turing completeness by unlimited range of values in cells). 04:23:43 Alright. 04:24:36 Why does it need to be able to be negative for Turing completeness? 04:26:15 It doesn't, although it doesn't make sense for -1 to wrap around to 255 but for 256 to stay 256. 04:26:46 So, what should I do? 04:27:39 An alternative is to keep cell values bounded (in which case wrapping around from 0 to 255 and vice versa probably makes sense) and to instead make the grid size unbounded vertically (or horizontally), instead of wrapping; that would also make it Turing-complete. 04:28:02 I thought about that, but I just don't like the idea. 04:28:17 OK. 04:28:49 [[L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71431&oldid=70824 * Voltage2007 * (-117) 04:31:13 What programming language is the implementation written in? 04:31:48 Python 04:32:58 OK 04:33:19 I don't know the capabilities of unlimited range numbers in Python, but hopefully you know what it is. 04:33:56 I do. 04:35:11 OK 04:35:58 I can't scroll. 04:36:08 nvm figured it out. 04:42:39 So, how should I set up underflow? 04:42:53 Should I just say "it can't go under 0" 04:43:11 That is another possibility, yes. 04:43:29 It is tidy I guess. 04:43:48 But it's a bit cheaty. 04:44:21 I've got I/O and addition worked out now. 04:47:01 What is your expert opinion? 04:48:32 I am not really an expert, even though I know some things about it, I do not know everything. 04:49:04 You're pretty good at this ngl. 04:54:27 testing 04:59:13 So, what do you think? You seem very experienced. 05:00:00 For one thing, I am not sure what exactly you are asking about. I did read the document you posted, and it look like OK to me, and these other stuff you now wrote also look like OK to me. 05:00:33 So if that is what you mean, then my answer is, I think it is good. 05:01:15 Okay, I'll rephrase. So, how should I set up negative numbers? Should I say "no, you can't have negative numbers" or should I just say "negative numbers allowed", or should i overflow it? 05:03:46 I think the mathematically sensible thing to do is to allow them, and use the low 8-bits for output, just like with positive numbers (it is well-defined how to do this). 05:04:07 Okay, so just reuse modulo again. 05:05:20 Yes, although in many programming languages, the result of modulo has the sign of the left operand, rather than the right, but if you have bitwise operators, use AND 255 instead of MOD 256 and then you avoid that problem (and the result is the same for positive numbers). 05:14:08 What on earth do you mean? I get the bit about the sign of the left operand rather than the right, but what do you mean by a bitwise operator? 05:15:02 Okay, I think I know what you mean. 05:15:10 I'll test it in Python now. 05:15:38 Okay, it works fine. 05:15:57 % is python's modulo operator, and -1%256 is 255 05:16:11 Uploaded to compiler. 05:16:17 Turing complete! 05:18:55 OK, then in Python the modulo operator does use the right sign, unlike C and dc, so it works. 05:19:08 Yep. 05:24:46 This can be tested: If you write "d" and then "a" 256 times (or "b" 256 times) and then "c" and then "n", it should output the same byte as the input but always go down instead of right, even if you input a space. Then it will use unbounded cell values correctly in that case. 05:25:32 alright, testing it now 05:27:42 Yes, it works. 05:27:52 The interpreter is free of bugs. 05:28:17 I also found a pseudo-quine: 05:28:18 c 05:28:37 Ah, yes, that will work. 05:28:58 (Although it won't terminate) 05:29:12 I know. 05:29:30 Are there any quines that terminate? (Other than the trivial case of the null program) 05:31:20 I will try to think of it. 05:31:58 I haven't been able to find any terminating quines, but I know that there are several different classes of non-terminating types. 05:32:09 Each class has an infinity of solutions. 05:36:11 Also, did you find a way to golf the addition program? 357 bytes is a lot! 05:40:40 No, although right now I will think of the quine, and then perhaps tomorrow I might look at the addition program again 05:41:15 Alright. 05:53:07 c ya 05:53:11 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:55:17 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:55:32 -!- Lymia has joined. 06:02:06 -!- tromp has joined. 06:06:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:56:22 -!- tromp has joined. 07:01:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:14:52 -!- tromp has joined. 07:19:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:24:12 -!- tromp has joined. 07:25:50 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:32:44 I think now I figured out how to make a quine with TrainCode. 07:33:03 (My program is ten bytes long) 08:04:59 [[L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71432&oldid=71431 * Hakerh400 * (+8) Two adjacent single quote characters must be escaped in order to be visible in the rendered HTML of the page 08:06:20 [[L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71433&oldid=71432 * Hakerh400 * (+8) ditto 08:30:27 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:58:18 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 09:14:30 [[Stopwatch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71434&oldid=70876 * GDavid * (+3) Step -> split 09:16:22 [[Talk:Stopwatch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71435&oldid=71406 * GDavid * (+134) 09:21:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:22:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:45:51 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:07:07 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 11:21:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:24:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:24:51 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 12:57:17 -!- rawr has quit (Quit: They're putting dbus in the kernel. For fairness, I want a Java RMI registry in the linux kernel too. dont @ me). 13:00:55 -!- rawr has joined. 13:41:38 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:54:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:08:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:09:27 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:26:05 fungot, are humans markov chains in disguise? 14:26:05 kspalaiologos: mind is fuzzed right now here we have both 14:26:28 [[Skiforth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71436 * Orby * (+1844) Creating Skiforth page 14:28:23 [[User:Orby]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71437&oldid=71319 * Orby * (+49) 14:30:02 [[Skiforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71438&oldid=71436 * Orby * (-1) /* Examples */ Fixing small typo 14:48:34 is there an interesting way to do diffusion-limited aggregation in The Powder Toy? I know a simple one: spam fog when ambient heat is off, then place a nucleus somewhere or just wait. But that makes pretty boring images 14:49:06 uh I probably should join #powder or something :D 15:09:59 ine-e: would you like to add a variation of BB_lambda to OEIS? 15:10:30 -!- Melvar` has joined. 15:14:22 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:25:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:33:44 tromp: surprisingly, that did not highlight me ;) 15:34:02 oops, typo 15:34:52 tromp: Somewhat tempting, but I haven't found motivation for basically anything this week. So for now, no. 15:35:28 (even though I do have an OEIS account) 15:35:34 would be a good way dto showcase your KO complexity 15:36:08 Sure, but it can wait. 15:37:38 PS: i completed the 36 TODOs in BB.txt 15:38:15 still waiting for latest draft to be published 15:48:27 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:58:23 -!- imode has joined. 16:01:48 -!- Cale has joined. 16:05:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:11:19 c,E,c,a,EP 16:11:43 That is the quine for the TrainCode that I figured out earlier 16:12:10 (Although I have not actually tried to execute this program on the computer, so it is untested) 16:18:35 [[Post Dominos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71439&oldid=65386 * Orby * (+4) FIxing broken link 16:23:33 [[Semordnilap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71440&oldid=65381 * Orby * (+4) Fixing more broken links 16:30:47 (The comma and P have no meaning.) 16:59:02 inetd/xinetd seems to have been forgotten by a lot of mainstream developers. putting your crap in the cloud should be as simple as throwing a binary up there along with a service interlayer that hooks the sockets up for you. 16:59:36 we're back to CGI with Lambda, why not general TCP/UDP serves. 16:59:43 s/serves/servers 17:00:52 I use xinetd. 17:01:28 good. 17:02:55 Although, that is mainly because I implemented my own NNTP server and Gopher server and QOTD server. 17:03:24 right. if you wanted to handle web requests, use CGI. 17:04:16 Yes, CGI is useful for handing web requests, and xinetd is useful for handling such things as NNTP and so on. 17:04:59 I currently work for Amazon and I'm kind of shocked at the kinds of architecture people are promoting internally. it is _literally_ like CGI apps of the early 2000's. 17:05:09 just using "modern infrastructure". 17:09:12 Do you like this quine program? 17:29:20 imode: so... simplicity by spawning a new process on every request? 17:29:40 yup. 17:30:03 imode: If so, will they reinvent fastcgi next to save the fork/exec overhead? :) 17:30:11 Or maybe preforking, preforking is cool too. 17:30:13 hahahaha, pretty much already have. 17:30:26 it's kind of disturbing. everything old is new again, but with accounting hooks attached. 17:30:43 What do they call it though... 17:31:00 hmm. single shot server 17:31:09 something like that, maybe a bit cooler. 17:31:46 lambda is essentially fastcgi in that it can pass stuff between requests. 17:34:24 eventually I expect someone to recommend me the bchs stack but un-un-unironically. 17:34:34 . o O ( Achievement of the day: I made the prompt of my Raspberry logins raspberry-colored. ) 17:56:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:23:25 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:34:42 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:38:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:50:46 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 18:52:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:57:30 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:10:03 i started writing a terminal ide for funciton. i am planing on a debugger, too. any non-obvious feature suggestions? 19:19:54 myname: I get it copy-pasting is obvious? Maybe some input/output/wire rearrangements? 19:19:59 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 19:20:24 actually, i didn't consider copy-pasting yet :D 19:20:48 what do you mean by rearrangement? 19:20:55 https://imgur.com/a/7rZNuzF 19:20:59 my current state 19:24:18 what do you mean by rearrangement? => a basic feature here would be simply moving (groups of) blocks to anywhere user wishes, with automatical rerouting of wires. I think there can be more to it, too, but I need to re-read Funciton page 19:25:07 arseniiv: i did consider that. like, removing wires where you are moving a block to and automatically extending at the other end 19:25:24 i am not sure how to feel about crossing wires yet, though 19:26:06 hm, also how about find/replace? Allow replacing a, say, single block with a several blocks, if inputs and outputs are somehow made into correspondence 19:26:40 that would be tough ui-wise 19:28:32 though hm I think the natural thing would be to move in the opposite direction: refactoring out functions from block groups. That would still require mapping inputs/outputs but maybe this case would be somehow easier 19:31:04 myname: or how about inputting not just single blocks, but also frequently used block groups? Though are there any quickly identifiable ones… 19:31:41 now my imagination is quite bounded, my suggestions are all variations on the same theme I think :D 19:37:09 now I remember the nop function is needed to make crossings 19:43:52 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:45:49 -!- Melvar` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:46:30 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton/Brainfuckiton ← I like a little ladder in there (in the giant BF◊ function) 19:48:08 myname: oh! maybe there could be a simple compactification feature utilizing these ladders 19:49:10 if no secret, what language are you going to use? 19:50:01 i am using js, because i really like blessed-js 19:54:39 the fluffiest tui library i have ever seen 19:58:36 huh, I didn’t expect that from js 19:59:06 me neither 19:59:14 -!- Melvar` has joined. 19:59:28 but if you are into tuis, give it a shot 20:03:54 https://github.com/embarklabs/neo-blessed 20:21:45 I have used blessed too (although not much) 20:22:06 what did you do with it 20:34:46 I tried to make a configuration TUI for mahjong rules, although since then I made up an entirely different thing which uses a plain text file and is far more flexible with the rules it is possible to define. 20:41:16 (I might also have other uses for blessed in future, although not right now; I am unsure.) 20:54:23 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:00:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:30:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:40:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:30 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:41:24 -!- tromp has joined. 22:00:34 -!- Train has joined. 22:00:40 Gudday. 22:04:13 Train: Hello, I figured out the quine. It is: c,E,c,a,EP 22:04:23 P? 22:04:52 Yes, P at the end. 22:05:09 why P? is it because of its value? 22:05:22 Yes; it is one more than O. 22:05:36 yep, okay 22:06:16 It outputs: 22:06:17 cEccaEFFGGHHIIJJKKLLMMNNO 22:07:18 O, it doesn't works. 22:07:28 dang 22:07:42 i'll give you the instruction log 22:08:24 (Possibly something I did not understand about it, or possibly just I made a mistake) 22:08:51 EcaEPcDcaEPcDbbEPcDbcFPcDbcGPcDbcHPcDbcIPcDbcJPcDbcKPcDbcLPcDbcMPcDbcNPcDbcO 22:08:57 That's the debug log. 22:11:31 I don't think there are any single-line quines. 22:13:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:18:35 I do not understand the debug log. What does it mean? 22:19:01 It's a list of the commands that the program cycled through. 22:19:38 Why doesn't it include the initial "c" and the commas? 22:20:14 -!- imode has joined. 22:20:30 Oh i didn't realise it needed commas 22:20:35 c,E,c,a,EP outputs c,E,c,a,EP 22:20:40 can you explain how you got it? 22:20:44 O, so it does work. 22:20:48 yep 22:20:54 How did you obtain the quine? 22:22:20 Well, I thought of a few different ideas, and then I thought it would have to avoid modifying some commands, so I put interleaved commands that are meaningless. But, finally it will have to terminate, so at the end I put P instead of a comma, so that it changes to O and then it will stop. 22:22:42 Ah right. 22:22:50 Thats really smart. 22:22:58 And you say you don't have much experience in this? 22:23:41 Well, I have more experience in this than people who do not have experience in this. 22:23:55 But these kind of things isn't everything I do in my life. 22:24:10 I have quite a bit of experience, but this is my first fully finished esolang which is a proper turing tarpit. 22:29:10 I'm trying to make a brainfuck interpreter in it right now. 22:29:22 That will properly prove it's turing complete. 22:30:37 Do you think that is easily possible? 22:31:00 Yes, that will, although a way to convert a Minsky machine to TrainCode would also prove it Turing complete. 22:31:09 Yes. 22:31:57 (And that also seems easier to me, although I don't actually know because I haven't actually tried, so I just guess.) 22:32:10 I don't really understand what a Minsky machine is. 22:32:35 I understand the whole "there are x unbounded registers with two operations" 22:32:47 but i don't understand the alternate state transition 22:33:55 Well, if one register is zero, then it won't decrement and instead will make an alternate state transition. In TrainCode, you would use 32 instead of 0, and you would write "na" (with the "a" to the right of the "n") to produce the failing decrement, and do something else instead in that case. 22:34:42 does it have to be anything specific, or can it just be literally anything 22:35:11 I do not understand your question. 22:35:28 in the case of the failing decrement, what do I do? 22:36:08 A successful or failed decrement will jump to a different part of the code, causing different code to be executed. (This is what your "n" command does.) 22:36:43 ah yep 22:44:43 I'll use 2 registers. Does that make it Turing complete? 22:46:05 Yes. 22:46:12 Two registers is sufficient for Turing completeness. 22:46:29 Sweet. I'll use the cells at 0,1 and 1,1 for the registers. 22:47:00 I'll also need some way to store the code, or I could just directly output it. 22:47:49 I suggested using an external program which is capable of converting any Minsky machine (of two registers) into TrainCode; if it can do that, that is sufficient to prove Turing completeness. 22:48:39 Okay... couldn't I just have an I/O for the code. 22:49:02 (The converter can be written in whatever programming language you want) 22:49:11 Okay... 22:49:32 You could just have an I/O for the code, although it is probably easier to convert it with a separate program. 22:49:44 I don't think so. 22:50:11 Because stacked "n" commands allow for really easy elifs, I reckon I could do that. 22:51:31 Yes, it does do that. 22:51:47 So what are the operations? 22:51:54 I think I need four operations...? 22:52:11 Add to R1, subtract to R1 and the same for R2 22:52:34 Yes, and flow control based on whether the decrement is successful or failed. 22:52:40 And if the subtraction operation fails, it jumps forward a certain amount? 22:52:47 Is that what you mean? 22:53:18 The program tells it where to jump to. 22:53:32 What do you mean? 22:55:04 How does the program tell it where to jump to? 22:55:18 I am not sure how else to explain right now 22:55:57 Can you explain it really simply, step by step, because I am reasonably new to esolanging. 22:57:56 Well, an alternative is The Amnesiac From Minsk; level 1 and 2 are Turing complete. 22:59:19 (Although I think Amnesiac From Minsk requires more than two registers to be Turing complete) 22:59:34 Yes, it does. 23:00:51 So, what does a failed decrement do? 23:00:58 Say we have both registers at 1 23:01:19 and we add one to the second one and decrement the second one twice. 23:01:23 what does that do? 23:01:36 Like a GOTO command, each decrement command in the program specifies what part of the program to execute next. 23:01:56 Yep, I follow. 23:02:08 So, how does a decrement say where to GOTO? 23:02:58 By specifying the address of the next instruction. 23:03:15 Okay... but it is just a decrement. 23:06:42 how does it specify an address? 23:07:12 Well, it is a parameter for the command. 23:07:12 The esolang wiki isn't very helpful either, and neither is wikipedia. 23:09:38 so the decrement command actually takes a parameter 23:09:59 so it's not just a decrement by 1 23:10:52 It is just a decrement by 1; the parameter is where to jump to. 23:11:23 Okay, so a decrement command takes 1 parameter, and if that decrement command cannot be executed, it jumps to that address in the program memory. 23:12:12 Yes. 23:12:19 Alright. 23:12:56 Is there a limit on how small the program can be to ensure turing completeness, or does it tend towards infinity? 23:13:02 I don't know. 23:13:14 Alright. 23:13:26 In theory, TrainCode should be able to implement a minsky machine.. 23:14:43 Because it has flow control with "n" 23:15:37 Yes. 23:20:08 First, I'll implement a Minsky engine which I can then use a python program to produce traincode that can be fed into the Minsky Engine. 23:21:05 Hrmmmm 23:21:14 This will be hard. 23:21:34 Just going to brainstorm on here, check me if I'm wrong. 23:22:05 -!- orbitaldecay has changed nick to orby. 23:22:10 So, Line 2 of the code will be the Minsky instructions. 23:22:11 -!- orby has changed nick to orbitaldecay. 23:23:30 mmm where is TrainCode? 23:24:07 Check the logs. 23:24:28 But here's traincode: http://sprunge.us/7UDn3W 23:24:33 just curl it 23:25:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:26:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:27:07 zzo38, I think TrainCode does already have an infinite memory because of the size of the program. 23:27:20 Additionally, I need a better name for it. 23:27:29 TrainCode is not a very good name. 23:27:44 look at this beautiful prompt color https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/fruit.png :P 23:28:16 The font hurts, but it is a nice colour. 23:28:39 it's a perfect raspberry color 23:28:51 The font... well I've been using that same font for more than 20 years. 23:28:58 Ouch. 23:29:02 It's hard to change now. 23:29:06 Why is the font hurts? It is the same font I use on my computer (but with different colours) 23:29:13 I prefer gridded fonts personally. 23:29:21 (obviously it's not scaled up like that) 23:29:24 Or MC enchantment table. 23:29:29 And I prefer it than the other font 23:29:39 Anyway, back to esolanging. 23:30:07 Train: basically as long as my eyes can take it I'll probably stick to this font... I know its quirks (e.g. how 0 and O or l and | look...) 23:30:09 I don't know what is the better name for it. 23:30:23 Train: But that doesn't mean anybody else should feel good about it :) 23:30:25 I'm thinking maybe something latin might sound nice. 23:31:26 Veritas sounds nice. 23:31:30 It's latin for Truth. 23:31:46 But, the size of the program doesn't cause it to have infinite memory; it only allows the programmer to set the memory to an arbitrarily large finite size, which isn't quite the same thing. Allowing the values of cells to be of unlimited range does give it infinite memory though. 23:31:54 Yes. 23:32:10 But in the special case of the minsky machine, there is no difference. 23:35:02 mmm mirrors 23:35:14 Mirrors? 23:35:58 Train: I just saw \ and /. And I'm reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Trajedy even though that's very different. 23:36:58 Huh. I'd never even heard of Trajedy. 23:37:39 I imagine that's probably true of most of the languages on the wiki :) 23:37:50 Lol, there's like 5000. 23:38:27 Trajedy actually sparked quite a bit of discussion here when it was new (involving myself as well) though so it stood out. 23:38:43 It's an interesting concept. 23:39:08 I'm surprised it's turing complete. 23:39:43 But I can see how it is. 23:40:13 Anyway, I call dibs on language name Veritas, and because this chat is logged, people can see this. 23:42:14 OK 23:43:07 * int-e wonders how terrible Traincode would become without the n. 23:43:53 yeah 23:44:04 n is the only thing that can make flow control 23:44:14 (you'd have to do *everything* with self-modifying code) 23:44:18 yeah 23:44:34 whioch isn't unheard of in esolangs 23:44:35 but I've already established that's impossible to do *everything* 23:44:40 in TrainCode 23:45:09 most problems are possible, but none are trivial without n, and there are some that are impossible 23:45:11 well, the wraparound kills the idea of infinite state, unless you start with an infinite grid 23:45:25 infinite number of states in each cell 23:45:26 which, conceptually, I believe you could do 23:45:39 I could easily make an infinite grid. 23:45:45 But I chose a finite grid. 23:46:32 The thing is, you could do that without radically changing the nature of the language. People have done similar things with Brainfuck. 23:46:54 Yeah, I made a brainfuck interpreter that had that. 23:46:56 ages ago 23:47:20 (The original Brainfuck had 30k byte-sized cells... few clones adhered to that) 23:48:20 Yeah I know. 23:48:43 In my interpreter I kept the byte-sized cells, but made it infinite. 23:48:55 Was the original brainfuck turing-complete? 23:49:27 Anyway, Traincode is a kind of minimal Befunge which judging by https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge#Related_languages is a surprisingly small niche. 23:49:41 No, the original Brainfuck suffered from the limitation of having finite state. 23:49:53 Okay. 23:49:55 Thx. 23:50:10 So a turing-complete system must have infinite states? 23:50:31 Yes. TC-ness is a bit overrated. 23:51:16 Yes, especially because esolangs are ESOTERIC 23:51:33 Almost any system is turing-complete. 23:51:44 Without too much effort. 23:51:50 The usual view on any computer is that it's a finite state machine with a ridiculously huge state space... easily 2^2^2^40 states *excluding* external storage. 23:52:16 So there's a disconnect between TC-ness (which computers aren't) and being useful for programming (which computers very much are). 23:52:20 Yep, but most esolangs deal with the hypothetical infinite case for the turing completeness proof. 23:52:35 An interesting esolang case is Malbolge. 23:52:51 Yes. 23:53:08 Remember that paper which showed a way to functionally program in Malbolge? 23:53:11 That was insane. 23:53:48 which has about 3^590490 states, which technically makes it a finite state machine, but you can still program it by selecting starting states that exhibit interesting behavior. 23:53:57 Yes. 23:54:29 No, I don't. I have not actually delved into Malbolge programming... still amazed that people actually accomplished it :) 23:54:32 Since it has a finite number of programs, is it Turing complete? I wouldn't think so... 23:55:15 Okay, it's not. 23:55:17 But it did change my view on what constitutes programming, and how it relates (or doesn't) to Turing-completeness. 23:55:34 Yes. Malbolge is one of the more out-there ones. 23:55:37 It's a finite state machine, so it's not TC. 23:55:42 Okay. 23:56:38 There's Malbolge Unshackled which lifts the memory constraint and is TC (as a programming language; implementations will be constrained by computer hardware). 23:56:47 Yes, I know. 23:57:07 It's just one of those languages that makes you think "who was sadistic enough to think of this" 23:58:22 Here's the Malbolge truth machine: 23:58:24 (aONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:98765FD21dd!-,O*)y'&v5#"!DC|Qzf,*vutsrqpF!Clk|ih 23:58:31 Wow. 2020-04-27: 00:01:09 zzo38, I got the first part of the minsky engine working 00:01:21 now i just need instruction handling 00:09:19 OK 00:13:54 https://esolangs.org/wiki/PATH is very similar to TrainCode 00:30:57 Malbolge is kinda interesting just by way of picking the least convenient option for each and every design decision that came up. 00:31:56 It's possible to make something more just straight-up weird I imagine, but I imagine not much less _useable_ without making serious sacrifices in theoretical capabilities. 00:32:05 Yeah. 00:43:13 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:56:32 [[Oxcart]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71441&oldid=66839 * IFcoltransG * (+1) /* Program structure */ Spelling error 01:15:40 [[Control Flow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71442&oldid=71346 * IFcoltransG * (+233) Clarifications and filling in missing sections 01:22:24 -!- TrainCode has joined. 01:22:36 Gudday! 01:26:23 -!- TrainCode has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:35:22 hum 01:35:41 hard to have a conversation with someone who isn't here, isn't it? :P 01:40:41 -!- TrainCode has joined. 01:41:36 Yes, I would think so. But you can still write, if you have something to write, I suppose. 01:42:56 And we can see what you have said through the logs. 01:44:22 So you can still have a conversation with them. 01:44:38 _test_ 01:46:53 lmao 01:46:59 yeah, i suppose that's true 01:47:31 * pikhq shall have to act as though people can read her words without being present 01:48:34 I forgot this channel has people who catch up on goings-on while absent by reading the public logs xd 01:48:39 It's been a while, admittedly 01:48:46 I do what. 01:48:48 *that. 01:48:54 Is that weird? 01:52:39 No, it's actually culturally normal _here_. I think this is the only channel I've been in where it's all that common though. 01:53:01 hack.chat/?programming has it happen a lot 01:53:14 * pikhq shrugs 01:58:18 It's kind of uncommon on Freenode. 01:58:42 I suppose it's not that surprising given the logs in the topic though 01:58:52 Which has been a thing for... ages? 01:59:15 Think that was there even back when I first joined. ... god, like 15 years ago 02:00:13 On hackchat, most people have some sort of logger bot. 02:00:28 Because the server doesn't store chatlogs. 02:00:39 I connect via a bouncer these days 02:01:07 Paranoid much? 02:01:37 Hrm? 02:02:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:02:29 The bouncer is being used for always-on and having shared client state between multiple systems, not for privacy reasons really 02:02:53 Okay. 02:03:04 Freenode server doesn't store chat logs either I think; there is the bots to store the logs. (It is possible though to make a IRC server that does make public logs of public channels, although most don't.) 02:03:28 Better not be for privacy, seeing as "pikhq" is what I go by basically everywhere and you can pretty trivially find where in the world I live and where I work from there :) 02:04:25 Hey, do you guys wanna talk on a hackchat? 02:05:22 Ooh, we have indeed had public logs for quite awhile. 02:05:26 [2003-01-18 02:49:02] < hcf> lament: would you like clog to log #esoteric? 02:05:26 [2003-01-18 02:50:58] < lament> i'm not sure. clog would talk more than an average regular :) 02:05:41 Wow... 02:06:16 So, uh, given that you can probably find out a _lot_ of stuff about me if you're willing to pour over logs long enough :P 02:06:36 Or, more accurately, about teenage-to-early-college me mostly 02:07:50 * pikhq has, admittedly, grown and changed a fair bit since the now long gone year of 2005 02:10:56 -!- diverger has joined. 02:11:35 -!- divergence has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:11:55 Hey, do you guys wanna meet me on https://hack.chat/?esolangs 02:14:18 * pikhq doesn't particularly care to, but 🤷🏻‍♀️ 02:15:52 I like hackchat more. It just feels... polished, ya know? 02:16:27 I'm rather fond of my client 02:16:39 What OS are you running? 02:17:11 This system is Windows, though my client is IRCCloud, which is useable from a lot of systems 02:17:25 Do you have Chrome? 02:17:33 Or python? 02:17:39 Or nodejs? 02:18:09 Currently I'm using Firefox; I do have a Python interpreter or 3 installed here, but I don't have Node because I really don't touch JS stuff 02:18:21 I've also got a _few_ C compilers at my ready... 02:18:33 -!- TrainCode has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:19:09 Lessee, we've got MSVC, Windows-targetting clang, x86_64-linux-gnu targetting gcc, x86_64-linux-gnu targetting clang, and x86_64-linux-musl targetting gcc... 02:19:50 Not to mention, a couple Rust installs 02:20:46 I'm contractually obligated to not use any chat systems not supported by fungot, and I don't think I can manage to write to a web thing from Befunge quite as easily. 02:20:46 fizzie: which is sort of what boolfuck is to brainfuck... and the format is a full statement) ( cond 02:21:02 (Also, it's sleepytime.) 02:21:06 valid 02:21:11 * pikhq pets fungot 02:21:11 pikhq: why are you dividing with the number one thousand one, the argument list with default values would be thunks that did possibly some i/ o systems changed significantly.' wikipedia 02:21:20 Good bot. 02:21:26 Is there a place I can read about the implementation of async/await in V8? Does it turn into something significantly different from the source code transformation something like Babel would do? 02:22:04 Hmm, now you have me curious, shachaf 02:23:08 iirc async stuff is thrown into the void as "might happen on another thread, might not". 02:28:35 Also, hichaf 02:35:12 hi 02:36:12 how's things? aside from the world at large being scow, of course 02:40:16 You gotta do what you gotta do. 02:40:22 * pikhq nods 02:45:31 Feeling like even more of a social recluse than usual while wanting to be more social than I had prior to about a year ago, personally. 02:45:37 It's... kinda weird 02:50:04 Yep, that's the "what you gotta do" part. 02:50:15 * pikhq nods 02:53:39 The switches I want in the "cat" program are not shared at all with what the GNU implementation does; the stuff that the GNU implementation does is stuff that it seem to me should be better in separate programs; the program "cat" would just concatenate files (and/or standard input) only. But, there is a few option I think should be put in, such as to tell what to do in case of errors reading and in case of errors writing. 02:54:23 Hmm, those actually do seem somewhat more useful than the random transformations that GNU (and indeed, traditional Unix) cat can do 03:00:29 The purpose of cat is to copy data from a file or file descriptor to stdout. Concatenating files is secondary. 03:00:48 "purpose" according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIWID 03:01:02 lmao, well, given thaaaat 03:01:19 granted. 03:01:32 Well, that is just the case where the number of files to concatenate is only one, which is of course a common case, and there is nothing wrong with that. 03:05:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:09:43 In a certain way of looking at it, I suppose 03:09:52 Just concatenating N files where N=1 03:09:55 Seems trivial but hey 03:13:39 How should this spawn function return values and errors? 03:14:00 I just changed it to return a positive PID on success and a negative errno on failure. 03:14:26 That seems reasonable enough, assuming your error results will fit in that 03:22:25 I guess I'll stick with it. 03:23:10 What about this file traversal API? How should it return errors? 03:23:33 Assuming you're limited to C APIs, kinda hard 03:23:42 There's a few options but none of them great 03:23:50 Right now it's used like this: "NNFTW nnftw; nnftw_start(&nnftw, path, flags); while (nnftw_next(&nnftw)) { ...nnftw.path, etc.... }" 03:24:23 There can be multiple errors as it fails to open directories and so on. 03:25:13 I could make it return an error, as in, you have to check nnftw.err before using the file name, but it seems easy to forget about that. 03:26:19 You can both set nnftw.err and then blank the file name too. 03:26:26 I was thinking that by default it'll silently ignore errors, but you can pass in a flag saying that you want them, and then you have to check .err before using it. 03:26:55 Some functions in SQLite that write the result to a pointer will write a null pointer when it returns an error (in addition to returning the error code, and saving it to be able to retrieve it later). 03:27:15 shachaf: Yes, that will work, I think 03:34:43 shachaf: I guess that works 03:34:56 API design is hard. 03:36:55 I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to skip errors silently by default. 03:36:58 -!- atslash has joined. 03:37:14 It's what nftw does (with no option to report errors), but maybe that's irrelevant. 03:38:26 If this were a not-C language I'd say maybe return some option type, but uh... well. 04:09:55 My file traversal program is 50-100% faster than `find` at printing all the files in /home. I would have expected find to be pretty fast at this task. 04:10:45 Huh. 04:21:04 [[Arity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71443&oldid=69413 * IFcoltransG * (+32) A few extra synonyms 04:25:26 In Pokemon card there is one "rainbow energy" card, which can be used as any energy but also damages the card it is attached to. It is good; I once won the game with it despite already having enough energy to attack. 05:05:57 [[Talk:Surreal FOREVER loop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71444 * IFcoltransG * (+676) Created page with "There are some useful total programming languages. Total means they always terminate. In order that a language implementing forever loops can be Turing complete, it would need..." 05:25:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:30:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:31:11 -!- imode has joined. 05:32:38 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:34:17 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 05:34:26 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:39:09 -!- imode has joined. 05:42:42 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:04:09 -!- tromp has joined. 06:09:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:25:05 -!- tromp has joined. 06:29:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:38:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:39:09 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:48:49 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:49:42 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:00:41 -!- tromp has joined. 07:39:52 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:41:00 -!- user24 has joined. 07:53:24 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:55:00 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:37:52 -!- interruptinuse has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in -- bye bye!). 08:38:04 -!- interruptinuse has joined. 08:44:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:47:11 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:05:51 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:48:56 I have an idea for an esolang 09:49:47 what ide 09:55:04 Concatenative version of the SK calculus. Doesn't need parentheses, then. But does need some extra combinators to manipulate the stack. Or maybe it's a queue instead of a stack and only has one extra combinator. 09:59:36 cpressey: Like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Zot ? 10:04:39 I was thinking of something with a stack or a queue. 10:07:10 So you have the combinator tree and a stack in the background? Interesting :) 10:11:24 For some reason reminds me of a distributed computing paradigm in which intermediate results are put into a shared pool and then taken out by another process 10:13:54 cpressey: look at lambda: the gathering. no parenthesis. 10:16:46 also didn't you just make such an esolang a few months ago, and I pointed you to LTG at that point too? 10:17:08 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wagon 10:18:57 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:20:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:20:24 Thue has been featured on the wiki frontpage for over a year. I think it's time to feature a new language. 10:35:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:37:52 int-e: "easily 2^2^2^40 states" => no way 10:42:29 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:58:21 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:05:47 I don't really see the resemblance between Wagon and the SK calculus, myself 11:06:05 Well anyway. 11:06:08 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 11:13:52 [[Quark]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71445 * IFcoltransG * (+344) Created page with "{{stub}} '''Quark''' is a minimal concatenative, functional, homoiconic language akin to [[Forth]] and [[Joy]]. == External links == * [https://github.com/henrystanley/Quark/..." 11:25:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:25:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:26:08 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:26:33 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has quit (Excess Flood). 11:27:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:29:37 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:36:21 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:55:41 b_jonas: oh yeah, that's one 2^ too many 12:55:51 b_jonas: I got carried away :) 12:56:54 Or maybe I went quantum. But that would put the "easily" in question. :) 13:11:23 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:14:13 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 13:14:29 a[256],c;main(){for(;~(c=getchar());a[c]++);for(;c<256;c++)while(a[c]--)putchar(c);} => ideas on golfing this tiny program? 13:15:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:25:05 eww, that accesses a[-1] 13:25:57 golfing c is often not done in a memory safe fassion, i guess 13:28:53 The access of a[-1] sounds fixable by making the latter loop `for(;++c<256;)` which would also be one character shorter than `for(;c<256;c++)`. 13:29:15 a[257],c;main(){while(c=getchar()+1)a[c]++;while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;} 13:29:27 is it possible to squeeze it all into a single loop? 13:30:01 well, it's possible of course, but is it worthwhile in terms of size? 13:33:07 oh there's this trick, too: a[257];main(c){while(c=getchar()+1)a[c]++;while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;} 13:33:31 damn :p 13:33:37 I forgot about it 13:34:32 a[257];main(c){for(c=getchar()+1;a[c]++);while(c<257)a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++;} 13:34:35 this is even smaller 13:34:46 wait: nope doesn't work 13:34:47 kspalaiologos: but doesn't work 13:35:01 need one more semicolon 13:35:07 then it's equal size :p 13:35:18 there's no point in replacing while(cond) by for(;cond;) unless you actually use those empty blocks for something. 13:36:06 yeah true 13:37:39 myname: it's a fine line... but out of bounds access can easily cause the program to misbehave, since you're relying on values of uninitialized (possibly not even present) memory. 13:43:05 hmm 13:43:45 how about a[c]--?putchar(c-1):c++; -> a[c++]--&&putchar(--c); to save one byte? 13:44:16 FireFly: cute idea, but it's off by one 13:44:23 oh bummer 13:44:37 oh yeah 13:44:49 it'd have to be (c-=2) and then it doesn't save you anything 13:46:01 wait, not quite.. but yeah, off-by-one in the output 13:47:55 `olist 1201 13:47:57 olist 1201: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 13:49:55 * int-e wonders how kspalaiologos feels about this kind of undefined behavior: a[257];main(d,c){for(;d<257;)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d]--?putchar(d-1):d++;} 13:50:08 I'm always up for UB 13:50:28 (and reliance on argc being 1) 13:50:45 it makes code "interesting" 13:52:13 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 13:52:19 [[Halt halt halt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71446&oldid=70593 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Properties */ typofix 13:52:44 but in any case, putting it all into a single loop seems to pay off. 13:53:53 there, a bit cleaner: a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d+1]--?putchar(d):d++;} 13:55:05 wait, what exactly is wrong with FireFly's trick then... 13:55:18 int-e: it should be --c-1 13:55:44 I accounted for the ++ with a -- but didn't account for the off-by-one in the value actually passed to putchar 13:56:09 yeah, but I changed something and now it applies: //a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[d+1]--?putchar(d):d++;} 13:56:15 uh 13:56:18 a[257],d;main(c){while(d<256)c?a[c=getchar()+1]++:a[++d]--&&putchar(--d);} 13:56:20 that one. 13:56:37 oh neat 13:58:53 (something: I shifted the counter by 1) 13:59:03 hi hello have a good day 14:00:01 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 14:00:57 That's 10 characters chopped off, as good a point to stop as any :) 14:28:27 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:30:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 14:38:41 [[Bugmaker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71447&oldid=54950 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Gotchas */ 14:58:41 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:03:21 I give up on my idea. Applicative languages something something concatenative languages something combinators something combinators something, that's my reason for why it doesn't work. 15:05:45 cpressey: if you want to do linear programming, you should go into math instead of computer science *runs* 15:08:12 * cpressey tries to work out the basis for that joke 15:09:05 concatenative -> linear representations of programs 15:09:22 I did it for the pun. 15:09:27 I have no excuse. 15:09:56 (And I'm assuming you're aware of the traditional meaning of "linear programming") 15:10:11 -!- rain1 has joined. 15:11:14 Oh, I thought it might be because I had so many unknowns in my statement. 15:11:54 That's also why I used 'basis' 15:11:56 Unknowns... maybe in isolation, but I had too much context for that, I think. 15:12:21 Oh, darn. I missed the "basis". 15:13:41 Which is pretty good in connection with the simplex algorithm (which is about identifying the right basis to make optimality obvious). 15:15:49 hello! 15:16:37 hi rain1 15:17:18 https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3627784/does-the-fraction-of-distinct-substrings-in-prefixes-of-the-thue-morse-sequence the problem about thue-morse substrings has been answered 15:25:23 . o O ( Is that a yes or a no? ) 15:37:13 [[Do loop until failure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71448&oldid=45251 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-15) /* Implementations */ fixed python logic error (what if doSomething() failed the first time? then the program would exit) 15:41:03 [[Call/cc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71449&oldid=69568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* A cryptic metaphor */ typo 15:52:31 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 15:53:29 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:58:55 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 16:00:14 [[C--]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71450 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+323) Created page with "'''C--''' is a programming language created by Simon Peyton Jones and Norman Ramsey. It is designed to be generated mainly by compilers for high-level languages, rather than b..." 16:12:32 -!- imode has joined. 16:17:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:19:44 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:20:20 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 16:25:33 -!- b_jonas_ has joined. 16:26:34 -!- Melvar` has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:34 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:34 -!- nchambers has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:34 -!- b_jonas has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:34 -!- ornxka has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:34 -!- aji has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:34 -!- myname has quit (*.net *.split). 16:26:35 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 16:27:09 -!- ornxka has joined. 16:28:49 -!- nchambers has joined. 16:31:50 -!- Melvar` has joined. 16:32:43 -!- aji has joined. 16:32:43 -!- myname has joined. 16:40:31 [[L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71451&oldid=71433 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-51) /* Python 3 */ fix py 16:46:16 [[MMP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71452&oldid=52999 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+78) fix typo,cat add,etc 16:56:17 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas. 16:58:32 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:00:57 [[11CORTLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71453&oldid=65079 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Syntax and commands */ remove Example || Example rows 17:20:58 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:26:18 -!- aji has quit (*.net *.split). 17:26:18 -!- myname has quit (*.net *.split). 17:26:18 -!- Melvar` has quit (*.net *.split). 17:29:33 -!- aji has joined. 17:29:33 -!- myname has joined. 17:29:41 -!- Melvar` has joined. 17:54:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:54:51 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:57:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:59:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:00:25 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:20:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:27:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:32:30 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:39:52 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:57:58 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:02:05 -!- cpressey has quit (Client Quit). 19:09:07 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 19:10:33 -!- Vorpal has joined. 19:10:33 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 19:10:33 -!- Vorpal has joined. 19:13:31 -!- tromp has joined. 19:14:04 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:14:56 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:23:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:32:23 -!- olsner has joined. 20:04:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:04:23 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:20:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:26:20 -!- tromp has joined. 20:27:14 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:27:30 -!- j-bot has joined. 20:27:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:32:44 Is this a figlet text? http://sprunge.us/wPJwBH 20:35:20 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:38:30 It looks identical to what I get as the output from `figlet 'Bye for Now'`, at least. 20:38:57 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:44:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:47:05 OK 20:50:48 [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71454&oldid=16220 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) fix link 20:51:56 [[KanjiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71455&oldid=61390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) fix link 20:54:18 [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71456&oldid=71454 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) fix link, remove redlink 20:54:34 [[Awib]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71457&oldid=71456 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) lower title 20:57:29 [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71458&oldid=58569 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-116) there is a python interpreter linked 21:13:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:17:20 -!- tromp has joined. 21:28:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:31:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:04:00 `smlist 516 22:04:01 smlist 516: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 22:09:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:10:29 [[Skiforth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71459&oldid=71438 * Orby * (+168) Adding link to bootable ISO 22:11:42 First stab at turning skiforth into a stand alone OS like a proper forth went pretty well 22:11:45 boots with grub 22:22:40 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:28:24 -!- tromp has joined. 22:39:20 anybody know of any other esolangs that would make interesting OSes? 22:39:27 I've got a framework now, might as well use it 22:39:34 I am not sure. 22:39:51 anything with a repl would work really 22:41:04 it'd be cool to have a bootable iso that could multiboot a variety of esolang OSes 22:41:11 what does you os different from an interpreter besides the ability to boot into it? 22:41:45 ring-0 access, so the ability to play with the hardware and full access to the cpu and ram 22:42:01 but for most uses, no major difference 22:42:11 would just be funny to write device drivers in brainfuck 22:42:31 orbitaldecay: so like easier to accidentally lose all your data with an OS 22:42:32 for various degrees of fun 22:42:55 but i don't see why you'd need a repl 22:42:56 b_jonas: indeed. virtualbox is probably a smart way to go. 22:43:02 just make an inbuilt editor 22:43:02 because there's no OS layer to enforce permissions on your user process 22:43:30 you're saying that like it's a bad thing ;) 22:43:52 some people consider it a good thing 22:44:09 having an editor and an interpreter would open your framework up to all ascii based 2d languages 22:44:37 myname: that's an interesting idea 22:44:47 i'd rather write a device driver in befunge than in brainfuck 22:45:30 brb 22:56:46 In principal you could have a standalone booting Brainfuck environment, but I foresee it being very difficult to do usefully. 22:58:09 Well, there's https://github.com/catseye/BefOS 23:01:58 "and lame" ;/ 23:02:25 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:29 There's also the https://www.bedroomlan.org/hardware/fungus/ if you wanted to design some hardware where that sort of thing would make more sense. 23:05:37 There was a CPU design course at the university where the main project was a MIPS CPU, but you could've gotten some extra points for adding a coprocessor of any kind, and we did think about doing a Befunge one but couldn't be bothered. 23:06:44 FWIW, any sort of "Befunge with subroutines" variant would probably be pretty practical as a basis for an environment. It's not particularly dissimilar from Forth, which people do use for that sort of thing. 23:07:44 i wonder if people actually made it possible to boot nodejs 23:15:25 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:23:32 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:26:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:26:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:39:45 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: activating thermonuclear warhead, please wait). 23:39:45 -!- noomy has quit (Quit: ZNC server is being destroyed by a catastrophic nuclear event. Please wait.). 23:39:45 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Segmentation fault). 23:52:25 [[MangularJS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+738) Created page with "'''MangularJS''' is a restricted subset of NodeJS by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Restrictions== * No periods are allowed in the source code, in a string or otherwise,..." 2020-04-28: 00:15:45 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:24:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:26:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:48:08 [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71461&oldid=71460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+527) Finish pop() 00:48:47 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71462&oldid=71421 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* M */ 00:59:44 Can a dictionary be installed with both Canadian spelling? "aptitude show ispell-dictionary" mentions American and British, but not Canadian (which uses a combination of American and British spellings; in most cases, Canadian spelling matches whichever spelling is older, which is often British but not always). 02:09:17 -!- imode has joined. 02:13:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 02:56:18 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:59:34 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined. 02:59:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:01:01 -!- iovoid has joined. 03:01:18 -!- Bowserinator_ has quit (Client Quit). 03:01:18 -!- iovoid has quit (Client Quit). 03:40:16 -!- Train has joined. 03:41:16 Gudday. 03:41:24 Hello 03:41:44 Wow. You seem like you are always online. 03:42:20 easy enough these days 03:42:26 what else is there to do, I guess 03:52:52 Do you like GURPS game? 03:53:16 yes 03:54:19 Haven't played it since, like, 2010, but I did enjoy it 03:54:31 No, I lied, 2012 03:57:54 I played the GURPS on Sunday on the computer, and also a few weeks ago also on the computer. I also recorded all of them on the computer I rewrote it to write the story to read it 03:58:16 nice 04:00:26 They are readable on a Fossil wiki at http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui but you can also download the Hamster archive with the files. If you find any mistake in it, please notify me. 04:01:29 The link I made to the figlet text from before is also from the GURPS game; since there is only one player I can use a direct connection and don't need IRC, and that is what the GM sent; I suppose he used a figlet text. 04:03:50 Train: I think that you should write about your esolang in the esolang wiki 04:04:55 (You can access http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.har if you want to download the Hamster archive file. A Hamster archive is a sequence of lumps, where each lump consists of the null-terminated ASCII filename, 32-bit PDP-endian data size, and then the data.) 04:05:37 Why am I not surprised you have a bespoke archive format. 04:06:06 I appreciate the PDP-endian size. 04:06:20 It is amusing, to be sure. 04:06:47 zzo38, I don't know if I should write about my esolang. It needs some tidying up. 04:08:03 I didn't invent it. (If I did, I probably would have used big-endian or small-endian instead of PDP-endian. The format is otherwise good though, and keeping the same format allows better compatibility with other programs using the same format.) 04:09:32 (PDP-endian isn't so bad either, since it is just as easy to work with, so I am not complaining about it.) 04:11:35 Train: What you wrote on sprunge seem like good enough to me 04:12:10 There are a few cases of undefined behaviour. 04:13:11 Ah, yes, such as you don't specify what happen in case of end of file. 04:13:23 It can never reach EOF. 04:13:46 In the case of the "d" command, the input might reach EOF, though. 04:14:21 no, because it only takes 1 byte of input, which is the first byte of input from the input 04:14:50 O, well, you didn't mention that in the document. 04:15:06 (Nor does that make much sense to me.) 04:15:12 Yeah, that's why the documentation is incomplete. 04:15:56 And if the lines are different lengths, the interpreter is just like: 04:15:57 https://i.imgflip.com/36qm8e.png 04:16:19 It doesn't specify the range of values in cells either, although based on what we discussed before it should be unlimited. 04:16:42 Yes. It has to be unlimited to be Turing complete. 04:17:21 And, yes, about the program lines being different lengths; presumably the program is not valid if the lines are of different lengths, although one thing that it could be made to do is to pad them with spaces on the right. 04:17:56 I thought about that, but then it does have some interesting repercussions on the complexity. 04:18:29 Another possibility is just to display an error message. 04:18:37 (and refuse to execute the program) 04:18:49 For example, it can either crash the interpreter or undefined behaviour. 04:19:19 You could also just explicitly specify that it is undefined behaviour if such a program is given. 04:19:39 Perhaps. 04:19:54 I think I'll do the error messages and tidy up the interpreter now. 04:23:17 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:27:55 -!- Train has joined. 05:05:06 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:39:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:45:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:33:21 Now I invented a chess variant, which is: If you en-passan an opponent's pawn, then you may optionally take any piece from off of the board (regardless of colour; you may even take the pawn that was just captured) and put it in the place of the captured pawn. You also must take a queen/knight/rook/bishop from off of the board for promotation; you can't have more than you started with. 06:50:23 -!- tromp has joined. 07:44:03 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:48:59 So I guess what it is, is this: in an applicative setting you can have combinators that operate on combinators to obtain new combinators; in a concatenative setting, you have, um, concatenatees, that operate on states to obtain new states, and which you concatenate together to produce new concatenatees. 07:51:02 If you insist on looking at concatenatees as combinators, each one takes exactly one other combinator, and produces a new combinator, but this has to terminate somewhere, and in the end you still have something that takes states to states instead 07:53:43 And if you say something like "states are combinators too", then that just sort of begs the question of where you draw the boundary between the combinators that are part of "the state" and the combinators that are part of "the program". 07:54:56 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:55:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:00:30 -!- TheLie has joined. 08:11:33 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 08:16:11 -!- LKoen_ has changed nick to LKoen. 08:30:39 Oh dear, joining #proglangdesign now requires "identification with services". 08:35:48 * cpressey is not sure it's worth setting that up just for a channel where most of the content is people trying to prove they have deeper understandings of substructal logics than other people 08:45:38 -!- TheLie has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:00:29 cpressey: A bunch of channels turned that on temporarily becaue of some spam. 09:02:49 Oh hi shachaf. Hadn't seen you around for a while, wondered if you had given up on IRC. 09:06:42 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:34:33 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 09:48:39 -!- kspalaiologos has joined. 10:24:00 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:40:20 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:40:26 -!- HackEso has joined. 10:58:53 -!- ArthurStrong has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:06:02 -!- lynn_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:15:05 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:16:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 11:24:32 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:27:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:27:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:32:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:43:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 11:58:45 Morning all 11:59:25 good day! 12:31:34 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:37:53 hi 12:41:20 hi 12:46:11 ive got into studying maths again 12:49:30 its hard to know the right thing to study though 12:50:02 [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71463&oldid=71461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Stack class */ 12:53:10 Springer just made a number of their textbooks free to download as e-books: https://github.com/alexgand/springer_free_books 12:53:56 In particular there's Kozen's "Automata and Computability": https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-1-4612-1844-9 13:02:19 rain1: Do you have any favourite parts of mathematics? 13:02:51 yeah algebra, number theory, codes and groups ithink 13:02:55 symmetries too 13:03:30 ill try that springer book, i grabbed 'proofs from teh book' 13:05:05 Proofs from THE BOOK is on the list, interesting. 13:05:51 interesting, i didn't know out uni president wrote something like that 13:07:02 Oh, rain1 beat me to that observation. Anyway, link: http://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-662-57265-8 13:07:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:20:25 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71464&oldid=71424 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Languages */ 13:22:23 "Introduction to Programming with Fortran" 13:24:30 "Entertainment Science" 14:00:40 cpressey: ah yes, a lot of publishers advertised such a deal with books. And when I follow them, it usually turns out that it only applies to a few uninteresting books, not the ones I'm looking for. 14:01:20 But I can be fooled once more, so I'll look at this Springer deal. 14:16:25 [[MangularJS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71465&oldid=71463 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+177) /* Restrictions */ 14:56:30 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:57:31 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:06:34 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 17:26:39 -!- TheLie has joined. 17:36:57 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:34 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:42 -!- tromp has joined. 17:51:54 -!- TheLie has joined. 18:09:47 [[Skiforth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71466&oldid=71459 * Orby * (+32) 18:20:51 -!- imode has joined. 18:36:42 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71467&oldid=71336 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+272) try it online 18:53:28 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:03:15 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:21:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:28:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:31:31 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:50:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:52:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:58:34 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:37:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:26 -!- tromp has joined. 21:15:57 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:17:36 -!- atehwa has joined. 21:18:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:18:59 I wrote this http://sprunge.us/jdR90S which is my current plan how to make the random pack generation working for TeXnicard. Do you think it is good enough? Do you have other comments of it please? 21:27:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:56:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:58:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:22:55 -!- opticnerve has joined. 22:31:35 A file I found mentions "simulated collation", which is simulating the printing and packaging process of official sets. This is something I have thought of for TeXnicard too, although I forgot when writing the document I linked, although I can easily add it; if you specify a name with / at first then it is a sheet name. 22:33:07 It says "Due to the required effort on the set designer's part of making card lists of the print sheets, no custom sets use this method so far", although with TeXnicard it will be easy enough to make card lists of print sheets, since rendering templates use the "setsheets" PostScript procedure to specify which sheet to print it on. 22:47:30 I found another set of documents about the card collation in Magic: the Gathering. 22:51:10 -!- imode has joined. 22:57:46 nice 22:58:42 I do not entirely understand it, though. 22:59:00 link? 22:59:19 http://www.lethe.xyz/mtg/collation/ 22:59:22 I decided to add automatic church numerals to skiforth and I have mixed feelings about it 22:59:25 I am reading it though to see how it is working 22:59:32 I think it's kind of useful, but not strictly necessary 22:59:35 cool 22:59:51 orbitaldecay: I expect adding automatic numbers would make the program run more efficiently 23:00:10 [[Minimal operation language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71468&oldid=71214 * Hakerh400 * (-13) /* Resources */ No longer dead 23:00:31 yes, definitely, I've been trying to strike a balance between some kind of usability and keeping it minimal 23:00:56 especially if I add RAM access, automatic numbers will be very handy 23:01:09 Yes. 23:04:33 I imagine that would be hard to use without them, yeah 23:04:40 -!- tromp has joined. 23:04:50 zzo38:: what piqued your interest in collation? 23:04:59 this is an interesting document 23:05:27 orbitaldecay: Well, I want to make the random pack generation working for TeXnicard. One way to do it would be simulated collation, although there is other way too. 23:05:47 What is TeXnicard? 23:05:49 I intend it can be supported both ways. 23:06:12 See http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui for a description of TeXnicard. 23:06:29 Are you interested in custom cards for Magic: the Gathering or other card games? 23:07:55 huh, interesting. I am interested in making card games, so it looks useful in that context. 23:08:11 I dabble in making games on ocassion 23:08:13 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:08:47 If you have further questions after reading the documentation, please tell me so that I may add them into the documentation and/or the frequently asked questions section. You can ask me here, or on my NNTP server, or in the Fossil ticketing system. 23:09:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:09:54 (Although the ticketing system is meant mainly for bug reports and feature requests. General discussion should preferably use the NNTP.) 23:10:59 Cool, will do! 23:11:23 I have a friend who is especially into making games (even moreso than myself) and would also find it very interesting 23:12:20 zzo38: would your texnicard software be recommended for card games other than magic? 23:12:35 say I want to make cards for dominion 23:13:03 orbitaldecay: you would probably be interested in Dvorak as well 23:13:17 LKoen: Yes, it is intended to be generic and not specific to Magic: the Gathering. 23:13:27 sounds great 23:15:49 orbitaldecay: see https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9010/dvorak and http://www.dvorakgame.co.uk/index.php/Main_Page 23:16:41 LKoen: Thanks! 23:17:18 the idea of the game is usually to make cards as the game goes 23:17:29 but the second link is a wiki full of pre-made decks 23:18:17 I should probably implement the paragraph formatting. (If you want to use it now, you would have to use PostScript text rendering instead, although I intend to implement TeX-like paragraph formatting too, using TeX fonts. PostScript text rendering will remain available, though, since that feature is included "for free".) 23:24:52 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:27:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:27:45 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:32:37 -!- opticnerve has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:55:14 [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71469&oldid=70456 * Rerednaw * (+99) 2020-04-29: 00:00:11 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:01:51 -!- xkapastel has joined. 00:05:21 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:47:43 One feature I do not intend to implement in TeXnicard is hyphenation, since it should hopefully be unnecessary. 01:15:25 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:23:13 -!- RAILR0AD has joined. 01:25:24 -!- RAILR0AD has left. 01:48:17 -!- tromp has joined. 01:51:22 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 01:53:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:54:30 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:11:09 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:17:46 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fwander * New user account 02:22:59 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71470&oldid=71355 * Fwander * (+303) 03:11:32 LKoen: I don't know about Dominion, although from the instructions on the wiki you linked about Dvorak game, it would seem making templates for Dvorak would nto be so difficult. 03:19:10 -!- craigo has joined. 03:37:26 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71471&oldid=71411 * YamTokTpaFa * (+65) Program modification: !'s were missing 03:38:01 [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71472&oldid=71471 * YamTokTpaFa * (+4) /* Assumptions */ noted->commented 03:49:31 -!- shinh has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:05:36 -!- shinh has joined. 04:12:13 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71473&oldid=67040 * YamTokTpaFa * (+432) 04:15:51 -!- Riccaird has joined. 04:18:44 -!- Riccaird has left. 04:20:46 -!- Riccaird has joined. 04:24:44 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71474&oldid=71473 * YamTokTpaFa * (+415) 04:50:08 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71475&oldid=71474 * YamTokTpaFa * (+748) 04:50:21 -!- tromp has joined. 04:55:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:58:13 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71476&oldid=71475 * YamTokTpaFa * (+171) /* Variations */ 04:58:38 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71477&oldid=71476 * YamTokTpaFa * (-367) 05:01:16 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71478&oldid=71477 * YamTokTpaFa * (-2402) moving by copy and paste 05:01:52 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71479 * YamTokTpaFa * (+2430) Created page with "The '''''' (''Zundoko Kiyoshi'') function, also known as '''''' (''Kiyoshi check'') or '''''' (''Zundoko chec..." 05:44:53 -!- tromp has joined. 05:49:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:09:00 ;; Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant permanent ;; When enchanted permanent would become tapped, instead that permanent becomes tapped and ~ gets a new timestamp. ;; Enchanted permanent loses all abilities while tapped. 06:10:30 [[Butterbrain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71480 * Fwander * (+8102) Created page with "=ButterBrain= '''ButterBrain''' is an esolang heavily inspired by [[Brainfuck]]. Butterbrain and brainfuck both share the idea of a strip of memory cells that can be looked at..." 06:13:43 [[User:Fwander]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71481 * Fwander * (+34) Created page with "===Contrbutions=== [[butterbrain]]" 06:15:23 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71482&oldid=71462 * Fwander * (+18) /* B */ 06:23:41 What name and mana cost and other changes? 06:31:07 -!- tromp has joined. 07:02:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:05:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:09:18 -!- tromp has joined. 07:21:19 -!- TheLie has joined. 07:22:33 -!- rawr has changed nick to grumble. 07:34:16 -!- Riccaird has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:03 -!- Ricciard has joined. 07:41:29 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:34:56 -!- Ricciard has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:36:53 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:48:04 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:48:07 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:56:36 -!- TheLie has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:00:48 [[Butterbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71483&oldid=71480 * Voltage2007 * (+6) 09:01:45 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:15:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:19:25 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:34:04 -!- TheLie has joined. 10:32:45 -!- rain1 has joined. 10:39:43 The Jot page gives a method for translating SKI terms to Jot terms but it doesn't seem to say what to do with parentheses. 10:39:58 Or am I missing it? 10:40:50 maybe the parens are not part of it 10:40:56 just working on the AST directly 10:41:43 http://www.nyu.edu/projects/barker/Iota/ -- scroll down to "Here are the rules for mapping an arbitrary CL program into Jot:" 10:42:04 I fail to see how that translation gives different results for, say, I(SK) and (IS)K 10:42:58 Or is it understood that you translate starting at the deepest nested terms? 10:43:20 let me see 10:44:18 so SK maps to *[i*i*i*ii][*i*i*ii] 10:44:37 and IS maps to *[*ii][*i*i*i*ii] 10:44:58 I think that's Iota; Jot is halfway down the page 10:45:07 oh yeah sorry im reading the wrong bit 10:45:26 oh and the square brackets aren't a thing 10:45:29 that's the mapping 10:46:13 so [I(SK)] = 1[I][SK] = 1[I]1[S][K] = 1[I]11111100011100 10:46:40 and [(IS)K] = 1[IS][K] = 11[I][S][K] = 11[I]1111100011100 10:47:06 so having the 1 is in a different place seems the only difference, for the bracketing 10:55:27 OK, so the translation has to follow the nesting. Thanks. 11:01:22 It's a bit clearer to me if I think of there being an implicit "apply" operator in between A and B in a term like AB. 11:01:34 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lunch.). 11:19:41 [[Talk:Unpseudorandom]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71484 * IFcoltransG * (+356) Created page with "I just realised: code after a . mightn't be redundant if it's within a loop. Loops that have . in a loop as their last command may be useful. If some..." 11:25:22 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:28:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:28:32 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:28:35 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71485&oldid=71239 * RocketRace * (+62) Add date and author 11:41:06 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:41:28 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:49:01 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: Well, would you look at the time. I've almost missed my ambiguous, non-existent appointment that I have scheduled just when I start to lose interest in my current conversation.). 11:54:02 -!- grumble has joined. 12:10:31 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:16:20 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:39:22 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:18:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 13:37:08 [[Babalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71486&oldid=71485 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Objects */ 13:43:25 -!- TheLie has joined. 14:54:38 [[User:AnimaLibera]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71487&oldid=66840 * AnimaLibera * (+308) ()Oo0 15:01:19 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:10:02 -!- craigo has joined. 15:13:23 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:16:40 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:19:11 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:31:45 -!- imode has joined. 15:53:15 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 15:55:27 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:56:02 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: A la prochaine.). 15:56:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:57:50 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:44:02 -!- rain1 has joined. 16:49:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:43:02 ``` words --pokemon 10 17:43:04 zekrow palon basauroth pet sawsbuck lycanroc decidueye munchkrok deerlia sandoom 17:43:15 nice 18:03:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 18:06:10 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 18:14:40 -!- iovoid has joined. 18:14:42 Do you like to play Pokemon card or Pokemon mahjong? 18:15:59 Maybe you know how to make my Pokemon mahjong rules work for next generation of Pokemon? 18:16:00 `coins 18:16:06 ​sbeescoin advvitcoin 108coin .coin prouplomicoin pureheadcoin hexcoin thcoin divzerofibcoin eloughcoin bagatacoin bam128coin ztracktrobaz,ohmy!coin decastaikcoin 157.6coin worbcoin fmularerowcoin enrokcoin ///coin ernameoncoin 18:16:39 `coins 18:16:40 ​polyncoin eta-julecoin tractcoin gasoitcoin bradolcoin steacoin junxcoin backing-boolcoin mdpcoin braicoin dolcoin nuctcoin verizzocoin barinworscoin rnadermacoin picoin carandahcoin eteneverscoin resorthtcoin restrecoin 18:17:25 manic dream pixie coin 18:17:49 -!- moony has joined. 18:18:47 So far I have rules for alternate forms of pokemons up to generation VII; I don't have generation VIII or IX or X yet, and I also don't know if other rules might need updated for that too. 18:19:20 (Note: The rules support playing any number of generations from only one to all of them, which effectively makes later generations optional rules.) 18:20:32 Also someone said they would abandon the numbering scheme of pokemon in future; if they do that then the mahjong game won't work with those generations, since the pokemon numbering scheme is a core part of the game. 18:22:52 kmc: Pretty 18:23:26 zzo38: I think they kinda already have -- since the national dex isn't even a thing anymore 18:23:30 * pikhq sad 18:25:29 O, they already did. Does that mean there are no more numbers for the latest generation? (Which generation is the latest one? I haven't kept track of it) 18:28:40 I don't think they have national dex numbers at all in gen IX, no 18:29:12 Gen VIII didn't have the national dex in the game, but Poke Bank did assign national dex numbers 18:29:31 (also, all the Pokemon were _in_ it, just w/out dex entries) 18:30:17 If, like gen II and later, they have internal numbers the same as the displayed numbers, then you can use those numbers even if they aren't displayed, I suppose, but depending on what they are doing, maybe that won't work. 18:30:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:33:18 -!- atslash has joined. 18:33:52 -!- tromp has joined. 18:37:04 -!- li_ has joined. 18:37:17 hi fuckers 18:38:19 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:39:18 -!- atslash has joined. 18:39:30 -!- li_ has quit (Client Quit). 18:52:27 My rules for Pokemon mahjong have many features that are not found in the standard Japanese mahjong game, such as the draft, wild cards, double-kind sequences, stones, the possibility to draw the dora indicator, additional irregular hands, etc. 18:53:08 (And, ippatsu does not count for tsumo win.) 19:19:43 [[Talk:Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71488&oldid=69988 * DMC * (+93) 19:28:33 The BSD boggle game says 0% if you did not find any words because there aren't any words in the grid. 19:35:09 -!- imode has joined. 19:45:02 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:49:52 -!- TheLie has joined. 19:56:16 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:57:34 -!- int-e has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:58:40 -!- int-e has joined. 19:59:03 -!- lambdabot has joined. 20:09:21 [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71489&oldid=62033 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Implementations */ 20:09:49 [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71490&oldid=71489 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* Implementations */ both dead links 20:19:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:20:58 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71491&oldid=71464 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) 20:44:57 -!- Train has joined. 20:45:30 Which random number generator should I use, ACORN or ISAAC or something else? 20:47:09 Depends on the use. It if's secure ISAAC, otherwise ACORN. 20:47:29 Depends on what you need it for, really 20:48:05 [[Uack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71492 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1415) Created page with "'''Uack''' is an esolang made by [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]]. ==Memory model== An arbitrary-length stack. ==Datatypes== Datatypes are function (which always take an inte..." 20:49:36 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71493&oldid=71491 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) /* Languages */ 20:50:38 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71494&oldid=71428 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1152) /* 2 */ 20:51:16 zzo38? 20:51:40 Well, I want it to be uniform and have a large period and difficult to predict 20:51:58 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/RandomNameGenerator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71495&oldid=71467 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+430) 20:52:20 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71496&oldid=71482 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* U */ + [[Uack]] 20:52:53 ACORN then. 20:53:28 The Wikipedia article about "Pseudorandom number generator" lists the BSI evaulation criteria, of which there are K1, K2, K3, and K4. I care about K1 and K2 and K3, although K4 is less important. 21:23:25 Of course there are many other random generators too. 21:26:06 [[Quark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71497&oldid=71445 * Zzo38 * (+23) 21:31:31 -!- Slyda1 has joined. 21:33:37 [07:29.18] there isnt really AI. It is all based on us, people. It is an Australia Army Simulation 21:33:38 [07:29.29] they want and may of simulated war in the 1950's 21:33:38 [07:29.32] they want to simulate war 21:33:38 [07:29.36] and enslave us all 21:33:38 [07:30.13] Jesus Christ was the first one to simulate in 1994 at Lloyd St Enoggera 21:33:39 [07:30.20] they want to kill him and simulate war 21:37:35 zzo38? I have another question about Minsky machines. 21:38:18 Train: OK, what question? 21:42:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:11 Do I have to implement the entire Minsky machine in TrainCode or can I make a python program to evaluate Minsky instructions and turn them into TrainCode? 21:45:42 You can use a Python program to convert Minsky instructions into a TrainCode program, although the calculation that the Minsky program performs will need to be performed by the equivalent TrainCode program. 21:45:54 (I don't know if I am being clearly enough, though.) 21:46:56 So can the python program decide on the decrement parts and do the flow control, or does the TrainCode need to do flow control?? 21:47:40 The Python program can convert the Minsky flow control into the TrainCode flow control. 21:49:10 1994 the simulation, my IP ends in 194 21:49:17 1996 the matrix concept 21:50:09 (i.e. The Python program, when it finds a decrement command in the Minsky program, would add a n command into the TrainCode program, and then add mirrors and stuff in order to direct the flow control to the target command in the TrainCode program corresponding to that point in the Minsky program, which the Python program would keep track of.) 21:50:13 Lloyd St Enoggera was where the first simulation happened 21:50:31 and coding is supposed to be like this... here's a coding language name for you... Leptorans 21:50:41 Tradesta 21:50:44 Trad-esta 21:51:01 not python, windows, angular, react... its just rape 21:51:09 thanks zzo38, so I can't have flow control in the python program. 21:51:14 this will be difficult 21:51:19 fun! 21:51:33 Yetoasda 21:51:39 how could would that be 21:51:45 Yetoasda coding language 21:52:03 but you use react, angular, javascript... and java probably was something 21:52:05 its the americans 21:52:11 start your own coding language 21:52:26 java... what was the image with that? 21:55:42 -!- tromp has joined. 21:59:44 Gudday. 22:00:06 is that how they talk! 22:00:13 you are finding out 22:00:26 but you need to know 22:00:34 ONLY Jesus Christ can do this 22:00:39 or a King 22:00:44 or THE king 22:01:10 have a look at the crows 22:01:10 Are you a bot? 22:01:15 no such thing 22:01:20 you think they are bots 22:01:24 they are simulated PEOPLE 22:01:31 who go through hell 22:01:33 Slyda1: Well, I do not understand what a lot of what you mean anyways. But there is not the king in England so far, just the queen. And, Jesus Christ is dead since a long time ago. 22:01:41 wonder why the internet is getting worse? bots you say 22:01:45 they are simulated PEOPLE 22:01:51 (There was the king in the past, but now it is queen) 22:02:03 zzo38 you WILL find out! 22:02:37 Englands old king died because they changed the bible because the royals had the saints and they could 22:03:01 edinburgh - garden of eden - phillip - lipton tea 22:03:13 zzo38, it's either a bot or a spammer. 22:03:16 The reason internet is getting worse is due to many things, including stupid people, idiotic people, and love of money. 22:03:39 dont say there are bots! wait, if you do, you would be american, and you need to realise, in america, you are owned by the TV and food 22:03:46 It displays behavior much like GPT-2 22:03:50 TV system america 22:03:57 americans are TVs 22:04:29 Look at the dates 22:04:30 2020 22:04:32 2021 22:04:34 2022 22:04:36 2023 22:04:38 2024 22:04:43 they have big meanings 22:04:45 and are defined 22:05:17 zzo38 22:05:20 are you being simulated? 22:05:23 what's that like? 22:05:26 it must suck! 22:05:32 but you just think its bad 22:05:35 try to be dirty then 22:05:35 o.o what's happening here 22:05:41 keep your clothes dirty 22:05:46 It's either a bot or a spammer. 22:05:49 Just ignore it. 22:06:01 if you are being simulated, be dirty then 22:06:04 get dirt on you 22:06:12 keep your hair not brushed and dirty 22:06:18 dont keep clean 22:06:31 keep things in your house as you are or want to be 22:06:43 not as you see it should be 22:06:53 あたし分からぬわ 22:08:12 I think you broke it with the non-ASCII chars. 22:08:48 do you know cars drive in simulated packets? 22:09:03 ever notice? 22:10:37 Get a gun. Get your computer. A real smart one. Re-visit code, similar words, if you see the word repeated twice like _get_ *get*... revisit it then type something predatory.... Australia Army have no skill are robots radio controlled because of what they did to the messiah 22:10:52 go to an army base with your computer 22:10:58 there is one in brisbane city 22:11:03 have a look on the walls 22:11:08 they are driving outside now 22:11:19 If any moderators are listening, please stop the spammer. 22:11:48 say you are interested in what they do there 22:11:56 then look at the pictures 22:12:01 they will tell you something about it 22:12:08 then have a look at your computer 22:12:12 bring a coding book 22:12:13 node.js 22:12:27 write some things down 22:12:31 have a look at a codex 22:12:39 or similar code 22:12:42 look at your code 22:12:50 then _program_ your code 22:12:55 be a programmer 22:12:58 not just a coder 22:13:07 ops: ping 22:13:17 program your code 22:13:20 revisit your code 22:13:31 highlight the code that strikes twice or four times 22:13:41 that is all 22:13:54 -!- Slyda1 has quit (Quit: IceChat - It's what Cool People use). 22:14:25 See, no need for any intervention. 22:14:38 It just doubled the size of today's log files. 22:15:04 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:15:22 I was off looking up the chanserv quiet syntax again. But it usually just gets people angry and avoiding and real noisy. 22:26:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:32:20 -!- Train has joined. 22:32:50 zzo38... I think there might be an easier way to prove that TrainCode is TC. 22:34:59 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:37 I can just prove that every brainfuck instruction has a series of TrainCode equations. 22:44:42 That match it. 22:46:22 That is a way to do it, at least 22:46:35 It proves TC is TC. 22:59:17 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:15:10 -!- tromp has joined. 23:20:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:28:27 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:28:39 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:31:15 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:38:34 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:48:33 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:50:49 -!- tromp has joined. 23:56:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 2020-04-30: 00:31:13 Yes, that will do it too 00:32:27 [[Double Helix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71498 * Hakerh400 * (+4892) +[[Double Helix]] 00:32:31 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71499&oldid=71496 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Double Helix]] 00:32:34 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71500&oldid=71361 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Double Helix]] 00:42:32 [[Unary Filesystem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) Wip 00:50:26 [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71502&oldid=51707 * Orby * (+1827) 01:39:01 -!- tromp has joined. 01:44:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:13:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 02:20:59 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:33:33 -!- tromp has joined. 02:38:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:35:25 Does C have any function like PostScript's /ReusableStreamDecode filter? 03:37:06 What is that? 03:38:38 It reads an entire file into memory at once so that now it is seekable. 03:38:51 (Even if the original file wasn't seekable.) 03:39:57 Do you mean in the standard library? 03:40:00 Yes. 03:40:09 I'm not sure such a function belongs in the standard library. 03:40:39 Maybe you are correct, but I also wanted to know if GNU or POSIX has it. 03:40:57 POSIX has mmap which might be better for many purposes. 03:47:11 Yes, for some purposes it is better. 04:15:46 C's standard library doesn't have a function like that. wouldn't that just be loading a file into memory byte by byte and operating on that. 04:16:05 -!- craigo_ has joined. 04:16:42 Yes, it is like that. Of course it is not a problem if it doesn't have; I just was wondering about it. 04:17:29 C has functions to actively seek through files without loading them into memory. 04:18:14 Yes, but some files are not rewindable. 04:18:51 -!- craigo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:19:05 such as? 04:19:53 Such as many files that aren't a disk file. 04:20:03 ah. 04:28:56 What is the API you want? 04:30:41 I was just wondering, actually. 04:31:58 There are all sorts of ways you might want to allocate memory for the file. 04:40:13 what happens if the file doesn't have an EOF character? 04:40:22 s/EOF character/EOF marker 04:41:33 Why would a file have an EOF character? 04:42:04 If it doesn't have EOF then it won't work, of course. 04:48:40 -!- PlasmaPower has joined. 04:51:56 -!- Train has joined. 04:53:49 Hello zzo38. 04:54:28 Hello 04:54:37 Hardly anyone uses an OS that has an EOF character as actually part of the file 04:54:47 I had an idea for an "improvement" on TrainCode. 04:54:57 Rather than just a weird artifact of APIs like getc() 04:56:50 I created this Befunge-98 snippet which freezes the cfunge and rcfunge interpreters: https://gist.github.com/PlasmaPower/39f01e1289d5d4bd84953335efd5f7de 04:57:19 I'm not sure if anyone's done this before, but it creates a flying IP that's always going to be out of bounds, then uses another thread to overwrite the currently executing instruction to put it in string mode and process a space 04:57:33 Impressive. 04:57:36 I'm guessing the interpreters get stuck trying to skip over future spaces 04:57:37 thanks :) 04:58:32 Train: What is your idea for "improvement" on TrainCode? 04:59:42 Multiple trains. 05:00:19 the character # splits a train. 05:00:46 It creates a new instruction and data pointer at it's position if the IP goes over it, and sets them to RIGHT 05:04:20 What do you think? 05:04:25 I suppose it can be a a possible extension 05:04:39 And two new chars: e and f 05:04:49 Change the relative data pointer for each IP 05:05:52 -!- PlasmaPower has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:06:09 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:06:11 I think that perhaps they should be called separate extensions or separate levels, similar to how SNUSP does 05:20:56 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 05:49:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:53:58 -!- tromp has joined. 05:59:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:22:37 -!- tromp has joined. 06:24:01 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:27:29 -!- tromp__ has joined. 06:28:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:28:33 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:29:03 -!- Train has joined. 06:30:40 zzo38, what do you think of multiple pointers? 06:31:32 Train: I mentioned after you disconnection, I can mention again 06:31:42 I think that perhaps they should be called separate extensions or separate levels, similar to how SNUSP does 06:31:56 Okay. 06:31:59 (Also, you did not quite exaplain how e and f are working) 06:32:25 -!- tromp__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:32:27 e decrements the reference for the data pointer for the current IP, and vice versa for f 06:32:40 so it changes the pairings of DP and IP 06:32:56 each IP has an assigned DP, and e/f change that assigned DP 06:33:30 O, OK. 06:43:22 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:49:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:23:25 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 07:23:36 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!). 07:23:47 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: iovoid has quit!). 07:53:03 -!- cpressey has joined. 08:02:33 I'll go one further on what I said yesterday: in Jot, the 1 combinator serves the role of a prefix application operator, which lets you construct programs in "forward Polish notation", which is how it can dispense away with parentheses. 08:02:51 s/dispense away with/dispense with/ 08:04:40 The "reverse Polish notation" in concatenative languages also lets you dispense with parentheses, and that's often stated as a selling point, but it's actually stronger than that: in a concatenative language, concatenation is associative, and that's the reason why you can dispense with pareentheses. 08:06:56 (I don't know if there is any actual signficant practical value to having concatenation be associative, actually, but it's aesthetically pleasing, at least.) 08:14:23 Are reverse and forward Polish notation actually different in that respect? 08:19:31 In the sense that in FPN a symbol sets up an expectation of what follows it (its argument(s)), and in RPN it doesn't, I would say yes. 08:27:15 But, I would admit that that's looking at it as syntax only. 08:33:48 If you reverse an RPN program, don't you get a PN program? 08:34:12 Maybe there's a practical thing where RPN is more amenable to things that takes a variable number of arguments or do other bizarro stack operations. 08:39:01 -!- Train has joined. 08:39:33 This is my fourth hour of debugging my interpreter... I've had to deal with the weirdest bugs. 08:40:06 -!- user24 has joined. 08:40:25 Hello. 08:44:47 shachaf: I don't really know; I'm mainly trying to explain to myself out loud why my idea for a concatenative version of the SKI calculus seemed obvious and easy when I first thought of it, but turned out to be much less obvious when I tried to work it out. 08:45:08 I've been converting my code, which was expressly designed for single-pointers into an n-pointer system, with two types of pointers and parallel processing. 08:45:10 Maybe it actually is obvious and easy and I'm just overthinking it. 08:45:45 Maybe, but many problems depend on your method of thinking. 08:46:12 For example, in my esolang, I couldn't find a quine for days, and zzo38 on here found one in less than an hour. 08:46:26 His method of thinking was very different to mine, and it worked far better. 08:46:34 Is 1 in Jot like ` in Unlambda? 08:47:13 Oh, not really. 08:50:13 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:50:21 Gudday mate! 08:56:35 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:56:39 -!- wmww has quit (Quit: killed). 08:56:53 -!- xavo[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 08:56:58 -!- xylochoron[m] has quit (Quit: killed). 09:12:49 -!- xylochoron[m] has joined. 09:24:07 -!- craigo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:26:35 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:30:29 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:30:33 -!- rain1 has quit (Changing host). 09:30:33 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:55:40 -!- xavo[m] has joined. 09:55:40 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 09:55:40 -!- wmww has joined. 10:41:25 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 10:46:56 https://www.lmfdb.org/NumberField/?galois_group=6T4 10:46:59 this i sa good site 11:27:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:29:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:29:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:43:10 -!- wib_jonas has joined. 12:04:23 -!- cpressey has joined. 12:33:49 -!- BWBellairs[NNRF] has joined. 12:34:04 -!- BWBellairs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:34:37 -!- BWBellairs[NNRF] has changed nick to BWBellairs. 12:54:26 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 12:54:45 -!- sftp has joined. 13:11:05 [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71503&oldid=71501 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+893) Finished 13:12:18 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71504&oldid=71499 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* U */ + [[Unary Filesystem]] 13:13:07 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71505&oldid=71493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Languages */ 13:13:26 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71506&oldid=71505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Languages */ 13:14:16 -!- TheLie has joined. 13:16:16 [[Double Helix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71507&oldid=71498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+36) 13:17:14 [[Double Helix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71508&oldid=71507 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) link + typo fix 13:25:02 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:59:17 [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71509&oldid=71502 * Orby * (-42) /* The set of PF languages is empty */ 13:59:49 [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71510&oldid=71509 * Orby * (-39) /* The set of PF languages is empty */ 14:02:30 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71511 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) Redirected page to [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] 14:03:25 Is oerjan still active? I haven't seen him around in a while. 14:05:20 orbitaldecay: yes, he hasn't disappeared yet 14:06:46 [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71512&oldid=63959 * Orby * (+163) 14:07:16 wib_jonas: cool. he and I were working a project a few years ago that I made some progress on yesterday. just trying to reconnect with him. 14:09:06 or anybody else who's interested in BF minimizations. I need some verification on a proof I wrote that there is no 2 command minimization of reversible bitfuck. 14:09:27 See the picofuck page. 14:09:32 proof is in talk section 14:12:18 [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71513&oldid=71506 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) /* Languages */ 14:13:14 [[The Past]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71514&oldid=71400 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+126) cats 14:13:35 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71515&oldid=71504 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* T */ + [[The Past]] 14:30:51 [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71516&oldid=71510 * Orby * (+664) /* The set of PF languages is empty */ 15:23:12 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 15:35:17 -!- imode has joined. 15:38:50 now I have one we will totally be proud of: V* is just a negation of V, assuming the scalar field is a contradiction 15:38:55 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 15:39:02 s/we/y’all 15:39:24 or *the* contradiction, hm 15:40:01 and it’s correct of course, as “negation of X assuming Y is a contradiction” is simply X → Y 15:40:45 -!- wib_jonas has quit (Quit: Connection closed). 16:41:17 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Leo1 * New user account 16:51:56 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:55:43 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:10:35 solvable 1d peg solitaire problems are regular 17:11:05 2d might as well 17:20:57 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:21:16 -!- hakatashi has joined. 17:23:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:29:33 -!- ArthurStrong has joined. 18:10:19 -!- orbitaldecay has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:19:31 -!- orbitaldecay has joined. 18:41:51 myname: 2d is apparently NP complete 18:42:04 im not sure i get how this is possible 18:42:12 :O 18:42:16 since it can be solved with an easy depth first search 18:42:33 and the maximum depth will be equal to the number of pegs 18:42:44 well, tsp can be solved by filling a matrix 18:42:46 does that leave enough room for it to still be NP complete? 18:42:50 -!- kevinalh has joined. 18:43:32 If someone claims to have the perfect programming language, he is either a fool or a salesman or both. 18:44:56 i fail to see how to solve it ith a simple dfs, though 18:45:34 like, wouldn't you need to make a dfs where each step is a new dfs? 18:49:02 i am not claiming that peg solitaire is a perfect programming language 18:49:22 Good. 18:50:24 [[Reversible Bitfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71517 * Orby * (+3970) Finally getting around to creating a standalone page for Reversible Bitfuck 18:50:34 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:51:10 rain1: i'd like to see your solver with a dfs 18:52:59 i dont have it, i wrote it a long time ago 18:53:15 it's very simple though, just list all moves at each step 18:53:20 [[Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71518&oldid=51581 * Orby * (-2496) Moving definition of RBF to its own page 18:53:40 i doubt that this will work with polynomial time 18:54:43 the previous to last move has 3 pegs with potentially 4 (minimum, can't think of more) moves 18:55:15 4 pegs can lead to different configurations of 3 pegs with more than one move 18:55:32 i fail to see how this is not exponential 18:55:53 [[Nanofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71519&oldid=69875 * Orby * (-6) Updating links to point to reversible bitfuck page 18:55:54 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:56:40 -!- iovoid has joined. 18:57:15 [[Reversible Bitfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71520&oldid=71517 * Orby * (+145) Adding categories 18:57:35 [[Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71521&oldid=71518 * Orby * (+145) Adding categories 18:59:29 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 19:00:06 -!- probablymoony has joined. 19:02:19 [[Nanofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71522&oldid=71519 * Orby * (+254) /* Reversible Bitfuck */ Nanofuck has a dual language, NF' 19:02:59 [[Nanofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71523&oldid=71522 * Orby * (+8) /* Reversible Bitfuck */ Fixing formatting. Sorry for edit spam. 19:10:53 [[Talk:Picofuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71524&oldid=71516 * Orby * (+56) Found a problem with the non-existence proof 19:11:18 Alright, done editing for now 19:11:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:11:56 This 2 command reversible bitfuck minimization problem is driving me nuts. I've been thinking about this in the back of my head for years. 19:12:18 It seems impossible, but I can't find the proof 19:12:39 I will check it out 19:12:58 Thank you, it's on the Picofuck page 19:13:16 Oerjan and I worked on it for like a month straight in 2017 and got nowhere 19:15:43 this is really cool stuff 19:15:49 i normally don't look into brainfuck related things anymore 19:15:52 but i like this 19:17:47 -!- kevinalh has joined. 19:20:12 [[Pure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71525&oldid=70523 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+32) /* See also */ 19:21:57 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Picofuck this seems like a very hard problem 19:22:22 -!- craigo_ has joined. 19:23:10 [[Pure]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71526&oldid=71525 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) It is not backwards compable 19:24:04 -!- kevinalh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:24:08 is it acceptable for a PF language to use 1/n'th of the tape for real data and the rest for scratch? 19:25:39 is there a 2 command version of brainfuck/bitfuck (non reversible) 19:28:16 rain1: yeah, PF is a hard problem. A PF language can use the tape however it wants provided it's a simple translation of RBF. 19:28:34 I don't know of a 2 command version of brainfuck (even excluding I/O) that's a "simple translation" 19:28:40 ah 19:29:07 2 command bfs are pretty easy 19:29:16 The simple translation definition formalizes the notion of "not cheating", otherwise you can do all kinds of context dependent nonsense and call it a minimization 19:29:24 have you considered candidate based on the language of matching brackets? [], [][], [][][], ..., [[]], [[[]]], ..., [[][]], type strings 19:30:17 i guess all candidates are like that actually 19:30:23 I have generally used [ and ] to discuss potential PF commands, but it is not known whether or not bracket matching of that type would be the appropriate grammar for a PF 19:30:41 The syntax might be two [ for each ], e.g. [[], or something else 19:30:56 interesting 19:31:22 what does "leave the machine in state t_1" mean in the definition of reversibility? the tape pointer? 19:31:31 tape pointer + tape contents 19:31:39 that comprises the entire state 19:31:47 ok 19:32:05 -!- kevinalh has joined. 19:33:08 2 command BFs are easy that are not what I call "simple translations" of BF. e.g. unary, turning tarpits, etc. 19:33:53 braincrash is the classic example of a turning tarpit that isn't actually a "simple translation" because it's context dependent 19:34:33 i wish i could solve this problem 19:34:46 i can't make my mind up if any PF exists or not 19:34:57 try to find one 19:35:07 I've been trying to prove they don't exist for years 19:35:46 nanofuck is as small as I've gotten and I suspect it's minimal 19:36:38 nanofuck is very impressive already 19:37:15 NF wasn't hard to find. I'm sure there are other interesting 3 command variants aside from NF and NF' 19:37:39 I mean, obviously there are an infinite number of 3 command variants, but most of them just contain huge swaths of nops 19:39:04 i wonder if you could do that makes [] act like * but [][] act like brackets 19:39:11 by using every second cell as a scratch space 19:39:44 The idea behind requiring a "simple translation" is to restrict context dependence, which in my view is cheating 19:39:57 it's questionable if this is reversible 19:40:08 if what is reversible? 19:40:44 maybe it would only be reversible if we add a restriction that we must write [X][X] (same contents each time), but then htis probabyl violates the simple translation requirement 19:40:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:41:11 yeah, how do you translate [ into an RBF string if [ has different meanings in different contexts? 19:41:33 you could store that context on the tape, but then you have to prevent it from being overwritten 19:41:46 yeah storing it on the tape is what i was thinking 19:42:18 i feel like the ability to use scratch space on the tape is what makes it hard to prove this impossible (or potentially gives us the ability to pull it off) 19:42:39 but we only get a finite amount of data from this 19:42:47 it depends on how you define the isomorphism between tapes 19:43:24 if you say the tape has to be literally the same, then scratch space doesn't fly, if there just needs to be an isomorphism between the tapes, then map each cell position n to 2n in the converted tape 19:43:31 that leaves 2n + 1 for scratch space 19:43:33 yeah 19:44:04 basically the pf language could only use the even cells and use the odd cells for storing context 19:44:27 It's not the most satisfying answer, but if that's all that exists I'd be happy with it 19:45:43 first priority would be making the tapes match exactly though 19:45:52 like they do between RBF and NF 19:46:10 maybe it could be proven that matching tapes is impossible 19:46:16 hmm 19:46:20 that's an interesting thought 19:46:23 what would this additional restriction of matching tapes imply 19:46:51 I mean, matching tapes is possible with 3 command simple translations because I've done it 19:47:07 I've generally been going for matching tapes when looking for 2 command simple translations as well 19:47:18 I haven't explored storing context on the tape very much 19:47:35 it seems like that is a little bit of a loophole 19:47:51 it might make sense to define simple translation as meaning identical tapes 19:48:21 I just wanted to allow simple translations between languages that use different models 19:48:28 like maybe one language doesn't have a tape and another does 19:48:40 there could still be simple translations between them 19:50:18 -!- TheLie has joined. 19:51:01 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asdfasdf1 * New user account 19:57:49 How common are using C programs on non-IEEE computers? 19:58:11 What do you mean by non-IEEE computer? 19:58:32 probably ones without floating point support. 19:58:49 Well, or using a non-IEEE-754 floating point format. 19:58:50 in that case super common, most 8 and 16 bit chips don't have floating point support 20:00:18 SDCC's (emulated) floating point routines are non-IEEE. 20:00:23 on those architectures floating point is simulated i software 20:00:34 interesting 20:00:57 They're "IEEE-ish", but don't support e.g. subnormal numbers. 20:01:52 OK, although I suppose it is not needed to port TeXnicard to non-IEEE computers, since TeXnicard is intended for 32-bit or 64-bit computers, not 8-bit and 16-bits. 20:03:04 Well, what does the C standard say about floats and doubles? If the C standard guarantees them to behave like IEEE floats and doubles, then I'd assume the compiler will take care of it. 20:03:12 It doesn't. 20:03:21 Bummer 20:03:25 I will need to study the discharged candidates on the discussion page tommorow 20:03:31 There's an appendix for IEEE floats and doubles, which the implementation can indicate by defining a macro. 20:03:47 zzo38: common if you count it when you deliberately enable some aggressive settings or optimization flags for compilation units, such as the runtime option to not generate and read denormals on x86_64 to speed up operations that would generate such numbers 20:03:48 rain1: cool, feel free to reach out 20:03:49 (And, I am not sure that SQLite works on non-IEEE computers anyways) 20:03:52 Other than that, the standard just gives a very abstract model, that can be implemented by a non-2 radix. 20:03:56 I'm bob@forder.cc 20:04:31 zzo38: that still uses numbers formatted as IEEE float, just not the IEEE float rules for arithmetic operations 20:04:37 so I don't know if you count that 20:05:18 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:05:30 "An implementation that defines __STDC_IEC_559__ shall conform to the specifications in this annex." 20:06:20 b_jonas: Well, my program only cares that the "float" type is a 32-bit floating point and that it is either IEEE or big-endian (or both), and that if you write to a union with a int and float as a int and read it back as a float, that it can be read. (The reason for this confusion is presumably a bug in Adobe Distiller, which is software I don't even use.) 20:07:45 zzo38: that part about the union sounds like it could be false on modern enough gcc because of how C handles unions, but I'm not quite sure 20:07:47 (Or possibly some other software from Adobe; I am not sure which.) 20:08:01 zzo38: wait, what do you do with the union? 20:08:13 Use of union for type punning is sort of sanctioned. 20:08:25 Merely write a int to it and read back a float from it; the union is not used after that. 20:08:25 read it back as a float and then read the union? 20:08:37 I have no idea how the C rules work for that so I'd just avoid that 20:08:54 as for float being 32-bit IEEE float format, that's probably true everywhere 20:09:32 b_jonas: There's a footnote about how it should work. "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called 'type punning')." 20:09:44 zzo38: could you use memcpy for that instead? that definitely works and is usually optimized away, while I'm not sure about the union 20:10:14 zzo38: also is this a C program or a C++ program? 20:10:19 It is C, not C++ 20:10:42 zzo38: I really don't understand the rules, and I suggest memcpy instead of a union 20:11:05 but it's possible that a union is safe too 20:11:38 Search for "#define obj_ufloat" in http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/39edd63855a81b2b 20:12:14 On a non-IEEE computer, the floating number is stored using the native order. 20:12:42 Yeah, if you want you could do that with memcpy. 20:13:28 `float f; memcpy(&f, &(int){x}, sizeof (int)); f;` or suchlike. But I do think the union's allowed as well. 20:13:30 float? No such file or directory 20:13:36 HackEso: Don't you start. 20:14:11 Actually, I guess you could do it entirely with compound literals, thanks to memcpy returning dest. :) 20:14:56 As in `*(float *)memcpy(&(float){0}, &(int){x}, sizeof (int))`. 20:16:11 fizzie: is that compound literal actually valid in C? 20:16:33 Should be. In C99 and above. 20:16:44 weird 20:16:45 Yes, I could use memcpy, although I did it this way, and the quoted footnote would suggest that it could work. Although that isn't the point I am trying to make anyways, which is rather the Adobe bug (despite none of Adobe's software is in use here). 20:17:56 I like `&(T){x}` over `(T[]){x}` when it's "conceptually" a pointer to a single object rather than an array of length 1, though they are equivalent. 20:18:32 -!- zseri has joined. 20:18:57 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 20:19:26 -!- zseri has joined. 20:19:39 -!- TheLie has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:20:50 I also don't know if possibly someone else might find the set of macros in the code I linked to to be useful in your own programs too maybe 20:29:37 [[Cortex language 3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71527&oldid=71429 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) 20:32:36 -!- TheLie has joined. 20:45:29 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:50:49 -!- TheLie has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:53:32 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 20:53:32 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 20:53:44 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:54:19 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 20:54:44 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71528&oldid=71298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+61) 20:55:13 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71529&oldid=71528 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) 20:55:32 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71530&oldid=71529 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) 20:55:46 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71531&oldid=71530 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) 21:00:06 [[Cortex language 3A]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=71532 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1483) WIP 21:00:27 [[Cortex language 3A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71533&oldid=71532 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) 21:04:52 [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71534&oldid=71437 * Orby * (+45) 21:05:24 [[User:Orby]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=71535&oldid=71534 * Orby * (-18) 21:33:03 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: zseri). 21:34:39 Hey everyone. 21:35:04 I'm pondrin' what Haskell would look like if we assumed it took place in the category of abelian groups. 21:35:32 There'd be a total function z :: forall a. a. 21:36:23 And another total function p :: forall a. a -> a -> a, which would be commutative and associative with z as the identity. 21:36:46 And n :: forall a. a -> a, the inverse for p. 21:40:27 Of course, the category of abelian groups isn't cartesian closed, so... good luck with currying. 22:03:40 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:19:21 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:31:59 -!- TheLie has joined. 22:47:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:48:34 -!- tromp has joined. 22:52:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:18 -!- TheLie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:31 -!- loops has joined. 23:07:06 -!- Train has joined. 23:07:43 -!- loops has left. 23:11:38 I've got the instruction pointers running in parallel, after almost 10 hours of debugging. 23:15:34 The data pointers were being initialised to the position of the # character, but so were the instruction pointers, so I ended up with hundreds of pointers even for simple, 9 byte programs. 23:16:41 I needed to do some "sorcery" with the arrays to make the data pointer start at the split and the instruction pointer start at the character immediately to the right mod the length of the program[0]. 23:17:17 zzo38, here's a demo of the splitting character #. 23:17:27 Code: 23:17:28 V 23:17:51 Output: #V 23:20:13 -!- tromp has joined. 23:20:21 I'm still implementing e and f. I'll send you the finished documentation. 23:22:53 Implemented them, after 10 hours and 22 minutes of debugging. 23:24:23 And the interpreter is only 4952 bytes. 23:25:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:26:47 All programs that worked in TrainCode v1 work in TrainCode v2, with a few specific exceptions. 23:26:55 So the quine still works. 23:27:39 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:29:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:29:40 -!- Train has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:30:31 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:52:16 -!- tromp has joined. 23:56:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).