00:33:34 <impomatic> Is anyone here a ghostscript wizard? I've got a file where all the pages are set to letter size, but the actual content is half-letter.
00:34:20 <impomatic> I can resize the pages, but the actual content is half on the final page, half off. I just need to figure out how to shift it down a bit.
00:35:25 <b_jonas> impomatic: I think the page size is included only in the DSC comments, so you can edit that. but there's a chance that the content wasn't aligned to the origin of the postscript coordinate system, in which case you'll get the empty half of the paper.
00:35:38 <b_jonas> impomatic: can you try that first? if that doesn't work, I'll try to look for some other solution
00:41:22 <zzo38> impomatic: I use Ghostscript.
00:41:38 <zzo38> You can set the page size using command-line arguments, or using setpagedevice.
00:42:04 <zzo38> (I don't use DSC though, but I know that you can use setpagedevice to set the page size)
00:43:01 <impomatic> I am using this command-line: gs -o tcwn11.pdf -sDEVICE=pdfwrite -g3960x6120px spring92.ps
00:43:20 <impomatic> On this file http://pauillac.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/tcwn/spring92.ps.gz
00:43:21 <zzo38> If you want to shift down the contents of the page, you can use set your own transformation matrix.
00:43:44 <impomatic> It's resizing the pages, just half the text isn't on the page.
00:46:09 <zzo38> You would use the translate command to move the origin of the coordinate system.
00:47:06 <impomatic> Thanks, just going to look up translate
00:51:27 <b_jonas> impomatic: the pstops tool from impomatic can resize pages and translate the contents without rewriting anything, so it keeps basically all the info that was in the postscript
00:54:19 <b_jonas> so I recommend pstops, it's probably the best solution unless you generated the postscript file yourself
01:18:49 <b_jonas> I found a copy of some old #esoteric memories on my hard disk: rano's toy compiler called bcompiler, buu's buubot2 and buubot3, and most importantly, simcop's Farnsworth interpreter
01:20:26 <b_jonas> you can get the latter from CPAN: https://metacpan.org/release/Language-Farnsworth
01:23:50 <b_jonas> but I think the other two fell off the internet
01:24:05 <b_jonas> though of course there might be mirrors somewhere
01:24:47 <b_jonas> does Farnsworth count as an esolang?
01:25:33 <b_jonas> it's a toy language, that might be enough to make it esoteric
01:35:06 <esowiki> [[Farnsworth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74213 * B jonas * (+1078) simcop's Farnsworth language
01:49:23 <esowiki> [[Farnsworth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74214&oldid=74213 * B jonas * (+571)
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02:49:56 <zzo38> Are there common formats for storing halftone patterns? I have an idea about applying halftoning to a input file in the separations output format, and to produce a output file in the same format but with the halftoning applied. It might or might not change the resolution, and might or might not change the set of separations (one reason they might change is in case you are doing CcMmYK printing).
02:56:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think those are usually stored mostly temporarily and in whatever format the printer accepts, since the halftoning you use will depend on the printer
02:59:57 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, although using printer-specific formats is probably only useful if the halftoning is implemented in the printer, isn't it?
03:06:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think so. the printer-specific format can contain a compressed bitmap form of the halftoned images, already halftoned, plus possibly some text, in which case the printer needn't implement halftoning, only decoding the bitmap and rendering text
03:06:53 <b_jonas> that would be the case for at least old matrix printers
03:07:22 <b_jonas> and possibly also some old laser printers too, from before they started to put hundreds of megabytes of RAM into them
03:07:54 <b_jonas> though it's possible that laser printers intrinsically need that much RAM because they have to print quickly and so need to render a whole page in memory before printing,
03:08:27 <b_jonas> unlike inkjets and matrix printers, which can print line by line or in even smaller granularity as long as the data comes in the order corresponding to physical movements of the hand
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03:56:28 <zzo38> Yes, of course if they are already halftoned then you will convert it to the printer format
04:32:02 <zzo38> Do you know if it is common or even if it is sometimes done at all to print different separations at different resolutions?
04:32:53 <zzo38> (Currently, the "separations output format" that I made up only supports one resolution for all separations on a page.)
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08:19:15 <b_jonas> showing Creative Commons's round icons for the cc-by license to indicate that the content is under the cc-by-nc-nd 4.0 license: SO FUCKING USEFUL, WEBPAGE! are you trying to DELIBERATELY TRAP SOMEONE INTO AN ACCIDENTAL COPYRIGHT VIOLATION?
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08:25:34 <b_jonas> apparently it uses a webfont to display the icons
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08:33:30 <moony> I think i've grown to like VAXen too much
08:33:32 <b_jonas> sorry, I'll just write to their contact address
08:33:41 <moony> i'm contemplating geting a physical copy of the architecture manual
08:34:10 <b_jonas> moony: print one in a copy shop and spiral bind it
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08:34:32 <moony> b_jonas: but real thing is more fun (and probably cheaper if I get it alongside a bunch of other manuals)
08:34:33 <esowiki> [[Farnsworth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74215&oldid=74214 * Keymaker * (+24) Fixed code tags.
08:35:38 <moony> found an offer that includes PDP-11 manuals alongside it which is a fun bonus
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08:37:07 <moony> b_jonas: if I plan to use any of the manuals for extended periods of time i'll probably print-shop it to protect the manuals
08:38:11 <moony> architecture itself has turned out to be really fun to work with
08:38:19 <moony> (not so much to emulate tho D:)
08:41:30 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74216&oldid=73988 * Chris Pressey * (-13) Example sections: make more consistent and remove excessively deep nesting.
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09:26:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Klaus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74217 * Chris Pressey * (+492) Created page with "=== Declarative paradigm, really? === I think this language is miscategorized as declarative -- it's described in terms of statements, instructions, loading integers into reg..."
09:36:08 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74218&oldid=74173 * Dion * (+1956)
09:36:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Klaus/Dense]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74219 * Chris Pressey * (+300) Created page with "=== Exclamation points or periods? === The text consistently states that a track ends in an exclamation point, but in the example programs the tracks consistently end with pe..."
09:44:10 <esowiki> [[ByteByteJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74220&oldid=63901 * Chris Pressey * (+36) Fix computational class.
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09:48:21 <esowiki> [[BitBitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74221&oldid=50709 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Whatever it is, it's not an LBA. Fix cat.
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09:52:35 <esowiki> [[1mpr0mp2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74222&oldid=73031 * Chris Pressey * (+17) Fix computational class in infobox.
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10:03:56 <esowiki> [[2DP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74223&oldid=21609 * Chris Pressey * (-1) Fix computational class.
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10:25:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:BitBitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74224&oldid=70053 * Chris Pressey * (+1332)
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10:53:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74225&oldid=73879 * Chris Pressey * (+131) +see also Special:Categories
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10:58:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74226&oldid=74225 * Chris Pressey * (+162) Note a point of site policy regarding caregories.
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11:21:22 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74227&oldid=74216 * Chris Pressey * (+39) +cat
11:25:34 <esowiki> [[Enigma-2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74228&oldid=72882 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (I haven't actually checked computational class though)
11:25:54 <esowiki> [[Morsefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74229&oldid=72873 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (I haven't actually checked computational class though)
11:26:53 <esowiki> [[Wishmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74230&oldid=72909 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (without arguing about the computational class)
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11:34:26 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74231&oldid=74127 * Chris Pressey * (+0) Fix cat (I haven't actually checked computational class though)
11:35:02 <esowiki> [[EGSHEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74232&oldid=70778 * Chris Pressey * (-1) Fix cat
11:45:08 <esowiki> [[Burro/TM2Burro.hs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74233&oldid=73511 * Chris Pressey * (+22) +cat
11:56:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74234&oldid=70383 * Chris Pressey * (+236) /* BSM */ Approve vote, sort of
11:59:59 <arseniiv> b_jonas: rain1: on that minpoly algorithm, if you wish to review its description, here it is: https://github.com/leovt/constructible/issues/4 maybe if it’s incomprehensible your advice would neat it up for the repo’s author
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13:07:44 <esowiki> [[DINAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74236&oldid=74235 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Subpages */ cat
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13:16:41 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74238&oldid=72127 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* New instructions */ cats.add(cats.Languages, cats.TuringComplete, cats.TuringTarpits);
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13:29:28 <esowiki> [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74242&oldid=57490 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+161) /* External resources */ cats + copy refimpl
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13:46:48 <cpressey> There's a Turing machine that writes a `1` onto its current tape cell, then moves the tape head left, then repeats this indefinitely, with the property that the tape has one more `1`s on it at each step.
13:47:35 <cpressey> either that or turn the TM around 180 degrees
13:54:33 <Taneb> Or start the infinite tape in the middle
13:55:11 <Taneb> cpressey: so, what's interesting about this TM to you
13:59:00 <cpressey> If you have a language, and you can't write a program that has this behaviour in that language, then that language isn't Turing-complete.
13:59:43 <Taneb> The only observable behaviour being "it doesn't halt"
14:00:19 <cpressey> I want to know who claims Turing machines have "observable behaviour" as distinct from "unobservable behaviour".
14:00:33 <cpressey> These are terms from operational semantics, not computability.
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14:00:57 <cpressey> A Turing machine is a mathematical object.
14:01:06 <cpressey> Who is telling me there are parts of it I can't look at?
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14:09:49 <cpressey> arseniiv: In Tandem (R | S) & (S | T) is also 0, because of the overlap (S). If this messes up distributivity, well, I don't know how to fix it atm.
14:11:49 <cpressey> Could maybe make the overlap criteria based on what is actually matched (at "runtime") rather than the labels that appear at the patterns?
14:13:25 <arseniiv> cpressey: my incomprehensible advice would be establishing denotation semantics formally in any manner you see fit, and then runtime behavior and allowed identities would follow :D
14:13:47 <arseniiv> ah, also did I guess correctly that lα → α is not 1?
14:18:46 <cpressey> Well... 1 is an artificial rule that somehow always matches and changes nothing. If we can assume l is actually in the program somewhere then 1 is something like: (l"" -> "" | l"a" -> "a" | l"b" -> "b" | etc ad infinitum)
14:19:31 <arseniiv> ah, I forgot about “always matches” part
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14:20:00 <arseniiv> but if l had a value α, then succesfully applying lα → α would mark l as modified?
14:21:32 <cpressey> Stacks don't really get marked as modified or not; it's more that rules are considered to have succeeded or failed to match.
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14:26:49 <cpressey> I should probably try implementing it in Haskell and see if it clarifies anythign.
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14:27:49 <arseniiv> hmm. If a rule R, applied to the state s, first changes l from α to β and then from β to α (it has asteration somewhere inside), and a rule S (applied to s) changes l from α to γ, then what should happen when trying to apply R | S to s, in the deterministic mode? Should this raise an error or proceed normally?
14:30:48 <arseniiv> ultimately I think I haven’t got yet what M(R) represents
14:32:13 <cpressey> ((la -> b | lb -> a)* | la -> g) should be detected as non-deterministic, I think, yes.
14:33:11 <cpressey> M(R) is the set of redexes for R.
14:34:14 <cpressey> I should probably just call it that.
14:36:18 <arseniiv> which would be pairs (label, string), right?
14:36:36 <arseniiv> (and then L(R) should be derivable from M(R)?)
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14:40:09 <cpressey> Yes, it would be a set of pairs (label, string). (Or maybe it has to be a multiset? But basically yes.)
14:40:55 <cpressey> L(R) is derivable statically from R -- it's just the set of labels that appear in the patterns in R. Unlike M(R) it doesn't depend on the state.
14:41:10 <cpressey> (the state of the object being rewritten at any particular point in execution)
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14:43:34 <cpressey> arseniiv: Thanks for asking these questions, it's making me think about how it could be explained better and where there might be gaps
14:43:57 <arseniiv> I’ll show you implementation I’ll end with, too
14:44:09 <Taneb> cpressey: "Turing completeness", as I was taught it, is about whether a program can accept any language that can be recognized by a Turing machine. The Turing machine you gave neither accepts nor rejects any string, hence cannot be said to recognize any language particlularly well
14:44:43 <arseniiv> though I intend to write just the essential part, the runtime, without a parser and maybe without IO yet
14:58:17 <cpressey> Taneb: OK. There is a single TM that inputs a number in binary and accepts iff it is a prime number, no matter how large that number is.
14:58:44 <cpressey> If you have a language and you can't write that TM in that language then that language isn't Turing complete.
15:02:13 <cpressey> My point is that, sometimes, a language is claimed to be Turing complete, and often the counterexample is a very simple Turing machine.
15:06:09 <cpressey> Or rather, that I've seen the same misconceptions over and over about what makes a language Turing-complete, and I'm trying to come up with simple-to-understand counterexamples for them.
15:11:11 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74243&oldid=69886 * 20kdc * (+23) /* Differences from Brainfuck */ Clarify the non-existence of - with information from the Boolfuck website.
15:11:17 <arseniiv> cpressey: “In this mode, if M(Ri | Rj) contains more than one element, an unrecoverable error to the effect of "ambiguous rewrite choice presented" occurs.” => should it be dependent not on M(Ri | Rj) having many elements? It can contain many and still not indicate Ri and Rj change the same stack?
15:12:35 <cpressey> Right, that needs to be rephrased significantly.
15:12:41 <arseniiv> I’d say, if (l, αi) ∈ M(Ri) and (l, αj) ∈ M(Rj) with αi ≠ αj?
15:15:25 <cpressey> If M(R) contains more than one match involving the same stack, there should be an error.
15:15:40 <esowiki> [[Boolfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74244&oldid=74243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29) /* External resources */ cat
15:16:46 <arseniiv> but for conjunction, there would be 0 instead?
15:18:29 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74245&oldid=70541 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+97) /* Syntax */ cats
15:18:44 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74246&oldid=74245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2)
15:20:04 <cpressey> If M(Ri | Rj) is ambiguous, is M(Ri & Rj) = 0? Yes, I think so.
15:20:33 <cpressey> Or rather, is Ri & Rj = 0. Yes.
15:21:07 <cpressey> Because L(Ri) intersect L(Rj) would never be empty in that case.
15:22:26 <esowiki> [[Iflang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74247&oldid=70155 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) cats + bold
15:34:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:COVID-19]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74248&oldid=71394 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) unsigned
15:36:31 <esowiki> [[COVID-19]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74249&oldid=71393 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+110) /* Predecessor */ c a t s
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15:45:14 <cpressey> An even better counterexample TM might be one that accepts only squarewords like "abcabc". If a language can't stand up to the pumping lemma for regular languages, it definitely isn't Turing-complete.
15:46:06 <esowiki> [[SoT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74251&oldid=73527 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48)
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16:11:09 <esowiki> [[ALT-4]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74252 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2303) Add ALT-4
16:11:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74253&oldid=74240 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* A */ + [[ALT-4]]
16:13:14 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74254&oldid=74111 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+81) /* Languages */
16:15:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74255&oldid=74226 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Concurrency */ move if needed
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16:22:51 <arseniiv> tried my implementation with a push-down automaton example and it doesn’t halt :(
16:38:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74256&oldid=74255 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* See Also */
16:38:47 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74257&oldid=74246 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Syntax */ cat
16:39:25 <esowiki> [[Nuts]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74258&oldid=71256 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) cat /* Links */
16:39:51 <arseniiv> ah this is the error in the automaton itself :D
16:40:27 <arseniiv> cpressey: see the last rule `Q0 -> 0 & I -> & O... -> Y` is applicable indefinitely at the end, so it applies
16:41:00 <arseniiv> I changed it to `Q0 -> 2 & others` and that works like a charm
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16:46:14 <arseniiv> you can find my partial impl here: https://hatebin.com/gnbvdqgvrh (only rule DSL and runtime, no parser, no pragmas and no modes other than the deterministic one)
17:12:08 <esowiki> [[Langlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74259&oldid=68708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+109) /* halting problem solved */ cats
17:13:56 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74260&oldid=72187 * 20kdc * (+959) /* Implementations */ Add a ByteByteJump truth-machine
17:13:59 <esowiki> [[!!Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74261&oldid=69346 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Hello World */ CATS
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18:05:11 <b_jonas> cpressey: that is not easy though. if the language doesn't fail on any of the trivial tests, most importantly if you can't implement it with a one-stack machine with finite control, nor can you simulate it with a program whose runtime is bound by a computable function of the input, then it's hard to prove that the language is not Turing-complete
18:06:01 <b_jonas> there are some other stupid ways to fail, but they don't come up often about languages that people try to claim Turing-complete
18:09:35 <esowiki> [[ByteByte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74269&oldid=19147 * 20kdc * (+1894) Hypothetical construction of a ByteByteJump interpreter in ByteByte.
18:18:46 <zzo38> Isn't it a trademark violation to show the icons for the cc-by license to indicate that the content is under the cc-by-nc-nd 4.0 license?
18:19:27 <t20kdc> zzo38: it's at least a sanity violation
18:20:54 <zzo38> t20kdc: Yes, but I thought the Creative Commons icons are trademarked
18:22:33 <t20kdc> zzo38: ...well, https://creativecommons.org/policies#trademark is pretty explicitly a "yes"
18:23:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe, I don't really care about the trademark violation here, but the misleading license indicator that may make someone think that the photo is distrib'd with a permissive license when it actually isn't
18:24:31 <b_jonas> they should either put the correct indicators or remove the circular icons entirely and leave only the descriptive text and link to license that's above it
18:25:07 <zzo38> Yes, I agree, they should do one of those two things.
18:25:31 <zzo38> But the trademark violation means that they can be sued if they do not comply, I think.
18:43:21 <esowiki> [[MAWP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74270&oldid=74237 * Dion * (+45)
18:45:17 <arseniiv> I shouldn’t ever read comments, I shouldn’t ever read comments, I shouldn’t ever read comments. period
18:45:17 <arseniiv> “COMEFROM is alive and well, and very widely used. The only change made was that the marketing guys rebranded it as ‘exception handling’.”
19:05:16 <HackEso> olist 1205: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
19:10:55 <zzo38> Do you know if any HTML viewing software (such as a web browser) has a table of contents function?
19:14:32 <int-e> arseniiv: hrm that's just wrong
19:17:01 <int-e> arseniiv: the sad truth is that come from is just a goto with the roles of labels and goto interchanged. Exceptions can be used to implement a limited form of goto. That is ignoring threaded INTERCAL, which does not match exception handling at all.
19:17:25 <int-e> Exceptions respect a form of dynamic scope; goto/come from don't.
19:18:20 <int-e> What is true is that various facets of unstructured programming are alive, more or less controlled. Exceptions are closer to the uncontrolled end of the spectrum than not.
19:21:32 <zzo38> Sometimes this role reversal is useful. I sometimes use COME FROM in assembly language programming. I implemented a COME FROM command in the MIXPC assembler because it can be useful for implementing jump tables.
19:21:33 <imode> I never had much stock in strictly structured programming ever since I saw how "forced" a lot of things are when you disallow unstructured constructs.
19:22:05 <zzo38> (It will be compiled into code that use goto instead of come from)
19:22:31 <int-e> speaking of come from, what happened to aspect-oriented programming?
19:23:00 <int-e> is that still a thing outside of property systems with update notifications/modifiers?
19:23:39 <int-e> (and, I guess, event systems in general)
19:23:52 <zzo38> But I also think that unstructured constructs are useful in addition to structured constructs.
19:23:58 <arseniiv> <int-e> arseniiv: hrm that's just wrong => exactly!
19:27:26 <arseniiv> I thought I would find some arguments against the precomposed unicode character … but I found only a meagre one (in many fonts it renders almost like plain ... concatenation of dots and that’s for many people is not good, they want more space, usually NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE
19:27:34 <HackEso> [U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS]
19:29:22 <int-e> arseniiv: I prefer ... in fixed width fonts, … is just too short.
19:29:33 <arseniiv> precomposed / plain / with narrow nbsp / with nbsp: … ... . . . . . .
19:29:56 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, … in monospace makes me uncomfortable too
19:29:59 <int-e> for the same reason, narrow nbsp = nbsp, of course
19:30:19 <int-e> And IRC is a monospace environment.
19:30:41 <arseniiv> I didn’t get about narrow nbsp
19:30:43 <int-e> because this is a terminal
19:31:07 <arseniiv> ah, you just stated that they are same length
19:31:12 <zzo38> I also don't like ligatures in fixed width fonts; unfortunately 2600 used ligatures in fixed width fonts, I wrote to complain, and they said they didn't have that but if they did, indeed it shouldn't use ligatures in fixed width fonts, but they still didn't fix it, anyways.
19:31:26 <int-e> arseniiv: they are indistinguishable :P
19:31:49 <arseniiv> so, monospace fonts screw us both on part of … and \.\s\.\s\.
19:32:05 <int-e> maybe if … was a wide character (which, for some reason, do exist. Japanese and Chinese are too popular I guess.)
19:32:15 <arseniiv> int-e: yep space isn’t even a grapheme as there are no strokes :D
19:32:40 <zzo38> Maybe if you didn't use Unicode and use a better character set for fixed width text on grid based displays, can be better
19:32:44 <int-e> (And they don't break the invariant that each character has a corresponding integer cursor position)
19:32:58 <arseniiv> <int-e> maybe if … was a wide character (which, for some reason, do exist. Japanese and Chinese are too popular I guess.) => this is actually a very good proposal
19:33:32 <int-e> zzo38: Could you stop with these purely hypothetical exercises that assume some kind of better world...
19:33:49 <zzo38> Well, I was making a better character set for this purpose.
19:34:48 <int-e> Unicode is a blessing, because it's seeing so broad adaptation. We don't need the n+1st standard that throws us back into the heterogenic past where non-ASCII messages never looked the same for sender and receiver.
19:34:57 <arseniiv> my friend had an intention to make a better encoding once, but then they stopped for some reason
19:35:18 <zzo38> Even with Unicode they don't always are the same, especially with different versions sometimes
19:35:28 <zzo38> (such as if they change the width of the characters)
19:35:43 <zzo38> arseniiv: What was their use of the better encoding?
19:35:59 <zzo38> (I think that different encodings can be good for different uses; you can't have one good for everything)
19:36:05 <int-e> arseniiv: there are also all those arabic ligatures before they learned better
19:36:06 <arseniiv> (soon in your nearest movie theater)
19:36:28 <int-e> But Unicode is firmly in the "good enough" category in my book.
19:36:54 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, actually I thought one of arguments against … precompose would be “that’s outdated like ā”
19:37:00 <zzo38> Yes, emoji is bane of Unicode too. One thing Unicode is workable for (although emoji doesn't help it, and other things also don't help so much) is for searching many documents in many languages, although someone on this IRC suggested before "Duocode", which might be even a bit better too
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19:37:26 <arseniiv> zzo38: hmm I don’t particularly remember but they intended to make it cover at least a part of CJK I think
19:38:00 <arseniiv> there was an intent to use scoped modes in the text for different sub-encodings, which is all I still remember
19:38:07 <zzo38> Even if you do use Unicode, simply specifying the character code as "Unicode" is actually insufficient, for a few reasons (one of them being han unification).
19:40:50 <arseniiv> <int-e> all those arabic ligatures before they learned better => BTW also Turkish İ and ı which pair with ASCII i and I respectively. Poor choice for implementability of text algorithms
19:42:04 <arseniiv> (the better one would be maybe to add duplicate non-ASCII i and I. I know it adds to characters many can misplace but but but)
19:43:08 <arseniiv> and I’m very glad I don’t write in languages that use letters which are represented by these codepoints
19:44:16 <zzo38> My own is UTCS, which is designed only for fix pitch text, although there are wide characters. There is both a 8-bit encoding and a 16-bit encoding. Both encodings are compatible with ASCII, and you can determine the widths of characters using a simple rule (no need for long tables).
19:44:56 <zzo38> (The width of a character is simply the sum of the widths of the bytes that make it up (or, in the case of the 16-bit encoding, the sum of the widths of those 16-bit units).)
19:45:52 <zzo38> The widths of bytes are: 0x00-0x1F and 0x7F = undefined, 0xC0-0xFF = zero, 0x20-0x7E and 0x80-0xBF = one.
19:46:15 <int-e> arseniiv: even the emoji are probably a good thing, because the ideal alternative world where nobody embeds emojis inside text messages just doesn't exist. this way, such messages can be exchanged between different vendors and look more or less the same
19:46:59 <zzo38> They don't look the same; the icons they use are different, even though they are similar, even the minor differences sometimes they call it a problem.
19:47:20 <HackEso> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+002E FULL STOP]
19:47:43 <arseniiv> (I added this simulacrum to my AutoHotkey script)
19:48:15 <myname> i learned here that "invisible plus" is a thing
19:48:31 <arseniiv> <int-e> this way, such messages can be exchanged between different vendors and look more or less the same => yeah, though that leaves much space for grumblings anyway
19:48:36 <myname> i still fail to understand why anybody would ever need that
19:48:50 <arseniiv> like, “a woman with bunny ears? really??”
19:49:06 <int-e> arseniiv: compromises everywhere
19:49:10 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
19:49:23 <arseniiv> myname: ^ though you know that probably way earlier
19:50:16 <arseniiv> int-e: yes that’s really the one mature thing to say (and think), but boooriiing (no)
19:51:50 <int-e> arseniiv: The same is true for all the things that are missing... no smiley with dollar symbol eyes? (I think. It's hard to be sure.)
19:51:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: like I said, with the turkish i, we're screwed no matter what we did. Even if you had a time machine to go all the way back before telegraphs and bribed every single inventor, there's nothing you could do to handle both the latin iI and the turkish iİıI sanely, short of murdering Kemal Atatürk so his alphabet never spreads.
19:52:23 <int-e> (Maybe Disney would sue the Unicode consortium over this.)
19:52:51 <b_jonas> Everything else, including the various cyrillic alphabets and vietnamese etc, can be fixed, but turkish i versus the rest of the world is just hopeless.
19:53:06 <zzo38> Is there a version of xterm that supports the DEC technical character set directly rather than using Unicode? (You can select the DEC technical character set, but it internally converts to Unicode for font lookup, which results in some characters being missing.)
19:55:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, I don't use xterm anymore (I have it installed as a fallback just in case urxvt becomes broken somehow and I need a terminal to reinstall urxvt). I didn't notice any missing characters, but if there are, you can probably modify the lookup tables in the source code of the terminal emulators to fix that.
19:55:45 <myname> my favourite thing related to the turkish I is the php bug that made it nearly unusable in turkish locales
19:55:46 <b_jonas> In particular, I do have the DEC technical snowman.
19:56:20 <HackEso> [U+1F911 MONEY-MOUTH FACE]
19:56:32 <int-e> what a great description.
19:56:46 <arseniiv> hopefully it either renders on your side with a good font or doesn’t at all. At my side it’s quite terrifying black-white. In Telegram it was way nicer
19:57:15 <int-e> I should've realized that it's "MONEY"
19:58:29 <myname> basically, what php did was to lowercase every class and interface name for classloading purposes. even the included ones. this results in "class Foo implements Iterator" to try loading ıterator which it fails to find
19:58:37 <zzo38> Some of the characters are not even in Unicode, so I want to convert internally to UTCS instead, which does include all of the characters in all DEC terminals, Atari, Apple, Commodore, Infocom, PC, etc.
19:59:23 <zzo38> Here is so far my specification: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce
19:59:54 <zzo38> Another thing I like about xterm is it uses bitmap fonts, so they aren't fuzzy
20:03:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: I am typing in an urxvt with my bitmap font right now (except some characters that are in neither of the two fonts I've chosen, like some emojis, might use vector fonts as a substitute, but these don't come up much on #esoteric )
20:08:31 <arseniiv> but these don't come up much on #esoteric => 🤔
20:09:19 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that appears as just a double-width box, so no problem
20:10:21 <zzo38> On my computer it appears as a single-width box.
20:13:21 <arseniiv> personally I don’t intend to use emoji on IRC as my client/OS is bad at them
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