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05:23:52 <zzo38> Will some software other than TeXnicard implement the Separations Output Format?
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07:06:34 <rain1> http://www.evan-doorbell.com/production/Overview-rough.mp3
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07:13:03 <rain1> https://esoteric.codes/blog/esoprogramming-and-computational-idealism
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08:10:34 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74634&oldid=74599 * Orisphera * (+10)
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08:20:56 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74635&oldid=50790 * DmilkaSTD * (+9) added the stub
08:22:21 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74636&oldid=58989 * DmilkaSTD * (-6) added the link to your user
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08:25:02 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74637&oldid=74238 * DmilkaSTD * (-32) cant explain
08:29:24 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74638&oldid=74485 * Chris Pressey * (+324) Add section on commutors and distributors
08:30:07 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74639&oldid=66122 * Hakerh400 * (-11) fix title
08:36:37 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74640&oldid=74638 * Chris Pressey * (+235) Stack labels can be strings now, not just single characters.
09:16:12 <esowiki> [[Snowflake (Orisphera's edition)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74641&oldid=74634 * Orisphera * (+4)
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09:31:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:ZOWIE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74642&oldid=66231 * Chris Pressey * (+188) /* Turing completeness */
09:36:23 <esowiki> [[ZOWIE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74643&oldid=30950 * Chris Pressey * (+173) I claim that this language is Turing-complete.
09:50:29 <cpressey> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Would_BF_still_be_TC_with_do-while_loops.3F
09:50:37 <cpressey> https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/47603/does-a-do-while-loop-suffice-for-turing-completeness
09:51:15 <cpressey> It's widely received knowledge that the language of "WHILE programs" is Turing-complete whereas the language of "REPEAT programs" isn't.
09:51:28 <rain1> I would guess yes by the principle of impossibility of avoiding turing completeness
09:51:44 <rain1> wwow you're saying it's NOT TC? that's exciting
09:53:14 <cpressey> "widely received knowledge" => "most people believe this, including people who write research papers"
09:53:44 <cpressey> We have two claims, I would love to see an actual proof.
09:55:07 <rain1> I'm surprised this problem is not already cleanly solved
09:55:46 <myname> well, unless you have some way to make a loop iteration be a nop or revertable depending on the state of a cell, you pretty much lose the ability to branch
09:57:02 <rain1> but you can branch
09:57:08 <rain1> it's just 1 or 2 instead of 0 or 1
09:57:36 <rain1> so this suggests trying to implement a reversible turing complete language is doBF
09:57:51 <myname> that's not really branching
10:05:41 <cpressey> I can see how using reversibility could help (do it zero or one times ~ do it twice, then undo it once or twice)
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11:12:31 <t20kdc> cpressey: is a limited-memory Brainfuck interpreter sufficient to prove the status of bounded-storage-machine?
11:18:04 <cpressey> t20kdc: I think so? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Smallfuck is an example of a brainfuck derivative that explicitly has finite memory, so is a bounded storage machine.
11:19:26 <t20kdc> in which case, any ByteByteJump with some minimum amount of memory (unknown, but at most 16K) is at BSM level
11:19:49 <t20kdc> proof for the 3-address-bytes/16MB case is at https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:20kdc/HypotheticalBrainfuckToByteByteJump#A_Much_Less_Hypothetical_Implementation
11:20:19 <t20kdc> the techniques used in it are described elsewhere on that page
11:24:29 <t20kdc> though to avoid wasting a lot of RAM, the tape uses up most of available memory, and is shared with the program content
11:25:02 <t20kdc> the theoretical description assumes a Brainfuck->ByteByteJump compiler, but this is an interpreter
11:26:34 <t20kdc> on the basis that an interpreter cannot perform any trickery
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11:34:10 <cpressey> There would be some overhead with an interpreter, but that doesn't really matter (it would kind of be expected.)
11:36:50 <t20kdc> even for a compiler, there's an expected overhead of 768 bytes
11:37:20 <t20kdc> (increment, decrement, check-zero)
11:39:36 <t20kdc> and conditional branches have either page alignment requirements (which gets costly fast) or 12 instructions of additional setup code...
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12:01:32 <esowiki> [[ThisIsNotARealLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74644&oldid=24123 * DmilkaSTD * (+28) +joke languages category
12:04:22 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74645&oldid=74438 * DmilkaSTD * (+5) just "wikified"?
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12:05:09 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74646&oldid=74637 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11)
12:05:48 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74647&oldid=74646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) external link -> link
12:06:04 <esowiki> [[BytFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74648&oldid=74647 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1)
12:09:13 <esowiki> [[( )fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74649&oldid=65072 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) bold + cats
12:14:39 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74650&oldid=71018 * DmilkaSTD * (+145) links fixed
12:17:21 <esowiki> [[Timefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74651&oldid=16628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+228) cats + misc
12:18:03 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74652&oldid=74650 * DmilkaSTD * (-39) links fixed, again
12:21:47 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74653&oldid=74645 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Essentials */
12:23:01 <esowiki> [[Fscratch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74654&oldid=74653 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6)
12:27:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74655&oldid=74616 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+490) /* LET me PRINT the CURSOR */
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12:32:56 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74657&oldid=71200 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24)
12:34:10 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74658&oldid=74657 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Hello, World! */ header->fix();
12:35:45 <esowiki> [[Les Accents Franais]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74659&oldid=55578 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) emphasis on idea
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12:40:41 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74661&oldid=74660 * DmilkaSTD * (+17) grammar bad++
12:41:56 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74662&oldid=74661 * DmilkaSTD * (-9) not a stub anymore
12:42:30 <esowiki> [[Z3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74663&oldid=61294 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+29)
12:44:05 <esowiki> [[ThisIsNotARealLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74664&oldid=74644 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51)
12:44:19 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74665&oldid=74662 * DmilkaSTD * (+37)
12:45:11 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74666&oldid=74635 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9)
12:45:53 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74667&oldid=74665 * DmilkaSTD * (+386) added palindrom example
12:46:33 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74668&oldid=74667 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) everyone makes oopsies
12:48:04 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74669&oldid=74668 * DmilkaSTD * (-29) +palindrom
12:48:43 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74670&oldid=74669 * DmilkaSTD * (+15) palindrom sequel movie hd
12:49:12 <esowiki> [[+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74671&oldid=49038 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+798)
12:50:44 <esowiki> [[Encapsulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74672&oldid=74639 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Interpreters */
12:51:28 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74673&oldid=70613 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Interpreters */
12:51:40 <esowiki> [[Intramodular Transaction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74674&oldid=74673 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) unpipe
12:53:07 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74675&oldid=74636 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+108) cats,link,bold
12:55:08 <esowiki> [[XENBLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74676&oldid=73269 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+72) /* Loop until the user says "stop" (case-insensitive) (9 bytes) */
12:56:26 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74677&oldid=72974 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30)
12:58:18 <esowiki> [[XENBLN/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74678&oldid=74677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) update commands (did anything change?)
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12:59:13 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74680&oldid=74670 * DmilkaSTD * (+190) meh
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13:09:44 <esowiki> [[User:DmilkaSTD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74683&oldid=74484 * DmilkaSTD * (+29) +tuplary
13:10:26 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74684&oldid=74682 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) oopsy daisy
13:10:38 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74685&oldid=74684 * DmilkaSTD * (+1) ?
13:12:18 <esowiki> [[+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74686&oldid=74671 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+84) /* External resources */
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13:14:04 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74687&oldid=74685 * DmilkaSTD * (+60) +hi
13:22:23 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74688&oldid=74687 * DmilkaSTD * (+270) im going to end it later
13:31:37 <cpressey> arseniiv: One of the things I like about Tandem is that it seems to lend itself to variations, e.g. some of the decisions you made in implementation would also be reasonable variations. If you remove the ls...->t form, then you do have the property that, the state was changed iff the rule succeeded. But then the main distinction between 0 and 1 is erased, and I don't know where that leads to algebraically.
13:32:19 <cpressey> btw I made a small change to the language (labels can be strings, not just characters). Not really worth implementing (unless you want to generate Tandem code using some other program)
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14:07:17 <cpressey> arseniiv: Named rules is also interesting to consider (mainly as a way to define infinite rewriting rules (like you observed in asteration being 1 | R | R&R | etc.)) I have no idea where that goes.
14:08:15 <arseniiv> I’d hope named rules don’t add anything special, as there is asteration already and the language is TC already, but I think they may add something…
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14:10:20 <cpressey> Well, originally, my idea was sort of a semiring awkwardly stuck halfway between a Kleene algebra and a distributive lattice. To make it work out, I pushed it towards Kleene algebra. But pushing it the other way would also be interesting -- somehow make & and | distribute over each other. Having infinite rewriting rules might fit in well there (but that's just a hunch.)
14:12:19 <cpressey> (Because there you wouldn't have asteration, but you'd still want to iterate the rewriting somehow, and maybe infinite rules could do that, maybe.)
14:13:43 <cpressey> Well, obviously they could if you could define asteration using them.
14:14:12 <cpressey> I don't think I'm quite up for thinking about this though, not at the moment
14:14:49 <cpressey> I just learned a little about Chu spaces and they are... very interesting.
14:21:23 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74690&oldid=74689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+470) /* LET me PRINT the CURSOR */
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15:40:28 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74691&oldid=74640 * Chris Pressey * (+150) /* Syntax */ Clarify role of whitespace. Other tweaks.
15:46:28 <esowiki> [[Tandem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74692&oldid=74691 * Chris Pressey * (+675) /* Implementing Automata in Tandem */ Show how a Minsky machine can be implemented.
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16:12:55 <esowiki> [[Tuplary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74693&oldid=74688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat /* External resources */
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16:47:48 <arseniiv> => As such it is a model of Jean-Yves Girard's linear logic (Girard 1987).”
16:48:25 <arseniiv> <cpressey> I just learned a little about Chu spaces and they are... very interesting. => oh! “As such it is a model of Jean-Yves Girard's linear logic (Girard 1987).”
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18:25:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gogotron * New user account
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18:35:41 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74695&oldid=73635 * Gogotron * (-1) The direction pointer doesn't start at the upper-right-most codel, but the upper-left-most codel. If it started on the right, facing right, it would just hit the edge of the image.
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19:37:56 <esowiki> [[MinISCule]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74697&oldid=65537 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* External resources */ cAt
19:37:59 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74698&oldid=74605 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1919)
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19:50:59 <esowiki> [[Printf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74700&oldid=74699 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0)
19:51:05 <esowiki> [[Printf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74701&oldid=74700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) CA
19:52:27 <esowiki> [[Pedo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74702&oldid=38897 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65)
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20:13:51 <esowiki> [[Totally Accurate Malbolge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74704&oldid=66250 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Implementations */
20:14:32 <esowiki> [[Total BF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74705&oldid=52146 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35)
20:14:49 <esowiki> [[Total Vacuum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74706&oldid=49790 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31)
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21:03:37 <esowiki> [[Gibberish/JavaScript/HTML interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74707&oldid=42724 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3)
21:05:17 <esowiki> [[Gibberish/JavaScript/Escape sequence]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74708&oldid=42734 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31)
21:08:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74709&oldid=74256 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Languages */ Somehow I doubt this category was approved...
21:10:05 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74710&oldid=74703 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2936) Blanked the page
21:10:29 <esowiki> [[Interstack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74711 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2972) add Interstack
21:11:10 <esowiki> [[Brainstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74712&oldid=70682 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) /* Categories */ rm needless header
21:11:47 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74713&oldid=74610 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Languages */
21:12:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74714&oldid=74628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) /* I */ + [[Interstack]]
21:13:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74715&oldid=74713 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Languages */
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21:46:59 <esowiki> [[Transposed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74716&oldid=74633 * ZippyMagician * (-30) Update factorial program
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23:14:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74717&oldid=74709 * IFcoltransG * (+6) /* Paradigm */ Alerted people to the fact that Turning is not a typo of Turing
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23:19:03 <esowiki> [[TECO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=74718 * IFcoltransG * (+1268) Created page with "{{serious|URL=TECO_(text_editor)#As_a_programming_language}} '''TECO''' is a 1963 language created for use in the text editor of the same name, designed for performing arbitr..."
23:42:06 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=74719&oldid=74710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+314)