< 1594339208 691241 :Rick!43a9ad09@c-67-169-173-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net NICK :Errick < 1594339345 188597 :Errick!43a9ad09@c-67-169-173-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1594340473 915318 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1594340621 540112 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dotlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75717&oldid=68673 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-23) 10/* Implementations */ > 1594340657 237369 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dotlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75718&oldid=75717 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-2) 10 > 1594340704 23996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Bangyen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75719&oldid=75694 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+22) 10/* Implementations */ < 1594340732 996196 :bangyen!6c1cb4d2@pool-108-28-180-210.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594341229 906424 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric > 1594341568 34629 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dotlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75720&oldid=75718 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* Computational class */ Wouk < 1594342680 82006 :bangyen!6c1cb4d2@pool-108-28-180-210.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1594345429 65383 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you can post follow up messages to <1594277001.bystand@zzo38computer.org> on un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.custom if you want to write comments/complaints about my custom set of Magic: the Gathering cards. < 1594345567 689253 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zzo38mtg < 1594345570 633952 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38mtg? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1594345593 570231 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zzo38card < 1594345594 789784 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38cards are at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt < 1594345597 963476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zzo38mtg.php < 1594345599 101685 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php < 1594345657 617568 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Instead of MD5 I recommend a slow key-derivation sort of function. < 1594345742 620465 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( MD5 run through homeomorphic encryption ) < 1594345768 193982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No, this isn't supposed to make any actual sense.) < 1594345813 661820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This whole (fully) homeomorphic encryption business is a bit of a mystery to me. It's hard to conceive of applications. < 1594345830 699917 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit like blockchain, which essentially has *one* application. < 1594345853 681667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is to make some electricity companies rich) < 1594345889 234953 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the main application was to scam people? < 1594345916 624368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an additional layer on top. < 1594345977 842512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as overall global transfer of wealth goes, I imagine there's more of that? Though I don't really know. < 1594346114 290182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, not sure it's all that significant < 1594346115 719841 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OK, although those are old; see http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/zivstr/ for the newest one, which is a specific card set. < 1594346121 649075 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably not) < 1594346165 26404 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NNTP server at zzo38computer.org does not require you to register an account to post. < 1594346179 155269 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, global transfer of wealth as a result of Blockchain Technology < 1594346192 394654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I really don't like the grammar that "blockchain" has taken on. < 1594346201 823717 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We used blockchain to do X and Y" < 1594346263 442166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we blocked X by chaining it to Y < 1594346289 896810 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people are using "coronavirus" similarly now, and it also irritates me. < 1594346316 449670 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we used coronavirus to do X and Y? < 1594346340 855299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean the lack of articles < 1594346345 978798 :ipk!~ipk@static.71.2.243.136.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594346349 517920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like the lack of articles, I guess. < 1594346393 291464 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Let's compensate: We used a shachaf to confuse #esoteric. ) < 1594346587 687734 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also a mirror of this card set on Magic Multiverse, although that is mainly for testing the Magic Multiverse export template for TeXnicard, although nevertheless it is there in case it is preferred by someone. < 1594346945 992626 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Also, the reason I used MD5 is because of the specification of HTTP. < 1594346970 149994 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you use HTTP digest authentication. < 1594346995 269699 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I shouldn't be surprised. < 1594347136 963354 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354094 185489 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qxeanxvqxmyvzwwt QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354094 748647 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 134486 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 422948 :grumble!~Thunderbi@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 526162 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 629275 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 804584 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 804642 :trn!jhj@prone.ws QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354095 943728 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354096 429794 :hakatashi3!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354096 916457 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354096 916574 :Deewiant_!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354097 196227 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-psvgehvifigejdfj QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354098 761469 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354098 869168 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354098 869212 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354098 869221 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.140.76 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354098 972132 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354099 75127 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354099 442752 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354100 509882 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vrihopqwenybvgle QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354100 884762 :lucky!~joel@unaffiliated/lucky QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354101 301307 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354101 466427 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354101 665133 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/ansible.staff.relrod QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354101 665179 :vertrex!~vertrex@unaffiliated/vertrex QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354101 863014 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354101 965971 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354102 849250 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354103 929111 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354104 554384 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-6-58.79c806.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354104 682127 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjgomsyvapriwpnm QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354105 123411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354105 123451 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354105 309190 :shig_!~davidb@inara.oztechninja.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354105 522889 :haavard!root@haavard.me QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354105 723317 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354105 723373 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354106 205796 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354106 455456 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-106.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354106 984081 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iijqccrdukenjenc QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354106 984143 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354106 984160 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354107 294623 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354107 397689 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354108 389400 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354108 389444 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354108 389455 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354108 492948 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354108 692179 :ornxka_!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354108 821313 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354109 18449 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354110 253536 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354110 593166 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354110 593215 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354110 702125 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354111 481458 :^[_!sid43445@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rijewdndniaefggr QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354111 742776 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354111 845938 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354111 971549 :gitlogger!~gitlogger@206.ip-51-91-102.eu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354111 971592 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354112 135083 :ipk!~ipk@static.71.2.243.136.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354112 135129 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354112 382645 :catern!~catern@catern.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354112 758278 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354112 922176 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354112 922226 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0480e-37.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354114 16669 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354114 412548 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354114 412586 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354114 925349 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-udoqujlzplzgfovy QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354115 212593 :dog_star!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cubjfhaqgqstwptv QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354115 384524 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tsacgxdiuyzmdrkk QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354115 523723 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-bebelkwvifzjgufa QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354115 667173 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354115 838530 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354116 393806 :dnm!sid401311@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-njnkvbvegpwtmpvg QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354116 735816 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354116 735906 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354117 160843 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594354401 580922 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582015 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582044 :myndzi!myndzi@tetrisguide.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582059 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582073 :spruit11!~unknown@ip56522cc1.speed.planet.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582135 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582169 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582199 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582239 :haavard!root@haavard.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582281 :shig_!~davidb@inara.oztechninja.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582305 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582366 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjgomsyvapriwpnm JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582379 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-6-58.79c806.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582445 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582461 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-b0480e-37.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582474 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582515 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 582540 :catern!~catern@catern.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685118 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685163 :ipk!~ipk@static.71.2.243.136.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685172 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-psvgehvifigejdfj JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685197 :^[_!sid43445@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rijewdndniaefggr JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685218 :dog_star!sid310875@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cubjfhaqgqstwptv JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685240 :dnm!sid401311@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-njnkvbvegpwtmpvg JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685248 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tsacgxdiuyzmdrkk JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685267 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685306 :gitlogger!~gitlogger@206.ip-51-91-102.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685328 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685337 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685356 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685365 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685384 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685404 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-bebelkwvifzjgufa JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685413 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685433 :stux!stux2@grid9.quadspeedi.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685448 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685468 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354401 685494 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354411 188619 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 314646 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 417897 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-234-164-48.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 417945 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 417958 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 417991 :ornxka_!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 418004 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354418 418031 :orbitaldecay!~bob@forder.cc JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354428 617070 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qxeanxvqxmyvzwwt JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354446 185636 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354446 185688 :Deewiant_!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354457 850018 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vrihopqwenybvgle JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354457 850104 :lucky!~joel@unaffiliated/lucky JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354457 953053 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354457 953099 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354457 953112 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/ansible.staff.relrod JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354457 953124 :vertrex!~vertrex@unaffiliated/vertrex JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 834168 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 834228 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 834242 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 834254 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.140.76 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 834266 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 834278 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354468 937158 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354482 313193 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354482 416207 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354482 416259 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iijqccrdukenjenc JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354482 416270 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354482 416280 :j-bot!~jbot@hagall.firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354482 416312 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-112-4.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354499 626525 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354499 729679 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354499 729737 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354499 729752 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-106.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 414823 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 414889 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 517859 :grumble!~Thunderbi@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 517902 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 517912 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 517936 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354512 517945 :trn!jhj@prone.ws JOIN :#esoteric < 1594354516 877031 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-psvgehvifigejdfj QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1594354519 676088 :^[_!sid43445@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rijewdndniaefggr QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1594354521 658601 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qxeanxvqxmyvzwwt QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1594354763 999391 :^[_!sid43445@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjmmandciuozckvb JOIN :#esoteric < 1594355025 11905 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mnymeobhmynyrwpq JOIN :#esoteric < 1594355281 539210 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1594355859 475942 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594355993 345922 :ipk!~ipk@static.71.2.243.136.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1594356691 155662 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-knabxlxkntjrilfx JOIN :#esoteric < 1594356691 155716 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gbntwmvgotkdeynl JOIN :#esoteric < 1594356953 403223 :lucky!~joel@unaffiliated/lucky QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1594358857 400899 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1594360183 272466 :joel2!~joel@2607:fea8:3360:2287:10da:67ff:fec1:6437 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594363278 986263 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: ... < 1594363458 516282 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1594363610 403620 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594367121 437478 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1594368853 237650 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's oerjan when you need somebody to discuss the latest TWIST in GG... < 1594368978 25696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also wondered about small variations of that sentence. > 1594368982 407455 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Back14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75721&oldid=61875 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+104) 10 > 1594369025 720054 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Bangyen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75722&oldid=75719 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+11) 10/* Implementations */ < 1594369795 85321 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes where is oerjan < 1594370440 977253 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1594370800 301022 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I guess GG is one of the more inane topics to ask this about :) < 1594370835 86597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(GG = Girl Genius) < 1594370888 415137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I mean, it's no password of the month. < 1594370910 423147 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that's a critically important topic. < 1594370918 93434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, nobody cares about the potm. < 1594370919 628576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1594370939 260516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe 3 weeks from now. < 1594370946 904750 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i `learn The password of the day is [...] < 1594370951 983711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for now, the topic is done, over and best left to rest. < 1594370980 175093 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I jammed up my SAT solver with a couple of extra features and it made a big qualitative difference. < 1594370992 568241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it can quickly solve instances that it wasn't able to solve previously. < 1594371042 443582 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how does it compare to minisat? < 1594371060 372217 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is kind of the baseline solver) < 1594371084 515246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some of them -- like n-queens -- it solves a lot faster than MiniSAT! Somehow. < 1594371104 429194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Was the line I just had in my text buffer, when I switched to the other window to verify that it was n-queens. < 1594371109 575787 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's interesting, unless it knows somthing about symmetries. < 1594371125 636368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't. I think it's just getting lucky using silly simple heuristics. < 1594371143 909346 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though hmm, those tend to be satisfiable, right? < 1594371153 283587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to implement better restarts. I finally added restarts, but I don't even save level-0 assignments when I restart. < 1594371164 609484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so luck may be a factor :-/ < 1594371179 713277 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I should probably have more UNSAT problems. < 1594371180 684573 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried to solve puzzles like slitherlink with your SAT solver? < 1594371211 246436 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is sudoku a puzzle like slitherlink? < 1594371217 606807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slitherlink is a bit awkward to encode... < 1594371219 583561 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's unlike slitherlink < 1594371222 742142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've solved sudoku and knight's tour. < 1594371230 424795 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it is created by the same author < 1594371233 3778 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knights tour is kind of silly since there's a linear time algorithm for it. < 1594371240 374695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though if you have knight's tour you can also do slitherlink. < 1594371258 240703 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Slitherlink is Loopy. < 1594371264 65633 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's also a tour. < 1594371283 148824 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some kind of quadratic encoding for knight's tour. < 1594371285 582315 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah encoding that into SAT seems interesting, because you have global/topological constraints < 1594371295 304520 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, slitherlink = loopy < 1594371324 851501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IME these puzzles that involve tours or connectivity are better solved with incremental SAT-solving. < 1594371338 174320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, this UNSAT problem -- pigeon-hole-10.cnf -- is interesting. < 1594371370 20335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's UNSAT, and I solve it quickly if I use static variable ordering, but not any of my really terrible dynamic variable orderings. < 1594371450 303700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What I do is look for solutions without the connectivity constraint. Then, if there's a loop, I assert that I only want solutions that use one of the edges *adjacent* to the loop (for each loop) and continue. Or something closely resembling that.) < 1594371513 730884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My static variable ordering is just to sort variables by the number of occurrences in all (initial) clauses. < 1594371532 903286 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And whenever I need a new variable I linearly scan through the list until I see one that isn't assigned. < 1594371535 542923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's for hamiltonian (or close to hamiltonian) cycles that appear in Slitherlink. For connectivity, I do the same thing but for cuts through the underlying graph: For each cut in the candidate solution, one of the involved edges must be in the solution. < 1594371564 242646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's interesting. < 1594371567 567381 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this make sense? Not sure anybody is reading this. If not I should probably stop :) < 1594371595 227610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you can easily just add clauses incrementally, for CDCL solvers. < 1594371599 32003 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some kind of polynomial time witness to a sat problem being unsatisfiable? < 1594371605 579256 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I do that anyway for model counting. < 1594371654 81130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I"m surprised that this kind of thing works better than asserting connectivity upfront. < 1594371664 160202 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that just because it's really awkward to encode? < 1594371670 785230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There's *some* difficulty connected to simplification (which some SAT solvers do and which may eliminate variables) but nothing that can't be dealt with by some additional bookkeeping. < 1594371682 473013 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1594371705 627854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For those puzzles it's a *huge* unwieldy constraint (compared to all the other, local constraints). < 1594371720 26434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which takes time to generate, and slows down unit propagation and all that. < 1594371730 821834 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there other kinds of constraint satisfaction problems that let you express that kind of thing more easily? < 1594371749 297706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at least for human solvable puzzles, the connectivity/single loop constraints tend to play a rather minor role. < 1594371813 476382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's actually an SMT solver that incorporates such things, https://github.com/sambayless/monosat < 1594371825 747391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I've never got around to play with... < 1594371863 117675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I view the incremental SAT solving approach I outlined as a poor person's version of SMT solving :) < 1594371920 426497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Rather than checking the theory constraints on the fly, one waits for a complete solution of the propositional skeleton, and analyzes that for theory conflicts. Those become new clauses, and then the SAT solver can proceed.) < 1594371957 177216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And hopefully this finishes before the clauses exceed the available memory.) < 1594371958 80084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, you're viewing the circuitude as a theory constraint. < 1594371965 996464 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1594371985 51289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to learn how SMT solvers work better. < 1594372137 210478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you liked minisat, you're sure to like microsat: https://github.com/marijnheule/microsat/blob/master/microsat.c < 1594372224 846110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that coding style... < 1594372240 578454 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's great, isn't it? < 1594372244 560122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing per line, with a comment. < 1594372283 803222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thing" < 1594372328 338235 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines 33 and 34 alone... < 1594372390 854804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though tbf, MiniSAT isn't all that pretty either, for different reasons.) < 1594372446 749274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My solver is ~1000 lines of C right now. < 1594372483 876292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: btw do you use github often enough to confirm my suspicion that they moved the link to the commit history recently? < 1594372514 895070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I should hunt down an older screenshot... that may be easier than asking people < 1594372524 409428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They redesigned the whole page recently, right? < 1594372537 131623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.blog/changelog/2020-06-23-design-updates-to-repositories-and-github-ui/ < 1594372650 678591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also found myself flummxed on this specific task since then. < 1594372731 655289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's an old screenshot, with "$nnn commits" at the top https://d1jnx9ba8s6j9r.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Cloning-how-to-use-github-Edureka.png ... I'm pretty sure that was a link. < 1594372762 693564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I'll get used to the change in a month or two. < 1594372768 332597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for now it's pretty annoying. < 1594372777 496909 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric : like that coding < 1594372781 445768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was. < 1594372786 498701 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be a fucking pest to work on without editor support < 1594372786 924538 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another screenshot: https://tonsky.me/blog/github-redesign/10_as-is.png < 1594372811 740482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1594372853 24727 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594372952 584979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing I've been wondering is who that 'Add file' UI is supposed to be for. < 1594372966 897438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm pretty sure it's not for developers. < 1594373007 444097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1594373010 882350 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or maybe... they are unifying the github and gist UIs?) < 1594373018 863982 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I clicked the "Add File" button and it automatically forked the repository?! < 1594373050 267251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes some amount of sense. < 1594373058 592043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it needs my password to delete it. < 1594373066 703638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it also seems rather surprising. < 1594373086 300431 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not particularly a fan of the whole forking model in GitHub. < 1594373087 650210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, because deleting repos requires a password. < 1594373090 163014 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUN. < 1594373094 580315 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi #esoteric < 1594373127 380882 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1594373131 593409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, but it matches the git model... to make a change, you get your own copy of the repo, modify that, and then make a pull request. < 1594373149 64934 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did y'all see https://github.com/shachaf/mustardwatch ? < 1594373152 592147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or send the patches by email.) < 1594373162 672174 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1594373166 530406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You've talked about it at length. < 1594373169 808557 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1594373183 168742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like the kind of thing I might do. < 1594373197 748340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the GitHub pull requests aren't really part of the whole git model in the first place. < 1594373203 465968 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're a separate code review tool. < 1594373217 669474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's some connection to regular git pull requests. < 1594373253 695017 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" is there some kind of polynomial time witness to a sat problem being unsatisfiable?" => not in general, because that would mean NP = coNP which we can't prove (though a few people suspect that it's true) < 1594373261 850829 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's false < 1594373293 521376 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think this is what you get if you combine the review-by-email and pull-from-this-repo requests in one UI, and modify it to be web-friendly. < 1594373307 724923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's not the same, but most of the spirit seems to be preserved. YMMV. < 1594373336 581108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't NP=coNP lead to some sort of hierarchy collapse? < 1594373370 788884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it's weaker than the infamous NP = P. < 1594373387 76101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I think means no. < 1594373395 454971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure :-/ < 1594373442 88650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says "If NP = co-NP then NP = PH." < 1594373451 184849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should know these things properly. < 1594373486 9474 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" They redesigned the whole page [github] recently, right?" => yes, they needed to do that to hide the change that they -- wait, Wikipedia? don't you look that up in the Complexity Zoo? -- show some other branch name instead of "master" < 1594373495 636150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1594373505 921163 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked it up on the Google. < 1594373530 845652 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no way, last time I heard about this we certainly didn't know that < 1594373555 745846 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still get master branches. < 1594373602 215170 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ok, maybe not then < 1594373603 103285 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm thinking about it and I'm not even sure what sorts of things are in PSPACE and not in PH. < 1594373629 294169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a thing in PH requires you to specify the number of quantifiers upfront rather than being part of the input. < 1594373647 372899 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess I actually do know. < 1594373652 35250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, PSPACE-complete stuff like QBF... < 1594373655 522201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, unless PSPACE = PH.) < 1594373656 729710 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the sokoban kind of problems, where you need to find solution that may be exponentially long < 1594373677 761027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but my question would have been, why is QBF not in PH? But then I figured it out. < 1594373680 101246 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or your favorite PSPACE-hard problem, #SAT. < 1594373693 56127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless I'm mixing things up again. I may.) < 1594373725 397752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :#SAT is PSPACE-hard? Hm, what does that mean? < 1594373732 988473 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1594373740 246732 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I can see the fun there... each QBF instance is in PH. < 1594373744 391655 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594373751 965468 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you said PSPACE-complete again somehow, despite typing a different phrase. < 1594373771 461268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure what it means, since #SAT isn't normally a decision problem, but maybe you just do the usual thing. < 1594373837 50086 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Well, the GitHub pull requests aren't really part of the whole git model in the first place." => yes, the original git model is sending patch sets by email < 1594373888 914764 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :github does the same but tries to remove the email part and do a web forum thread for pull requests instead of an email threads, because email is harder to centralize (at least if you're Microsoft not Google) and so harder to monetize < 1594373901 836766 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's logical < 1594373909 918771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the complexity wiki just has the weaker statement that PH is in P^{#P} < 1594373965 254987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last time I looked, GitHub didn't look like a good code review tool. < 1594373971 49841 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people say it's better so maybe it's better? < 1594373981 553316 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: can you give a link to where wikipedia says that if NP = coNP then NP = PH? < 1594373997 584347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_hierarchy#Relations_between_classes_in_the_polynomial_hierarchy < 1594374046 864103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda%27s_theorem < 1594374059 882092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is about #P) < 1594374133 79652 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it does say that there < 1594374151 496704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah by the preceeding discussion this falls short of making it PSPACE-hard. < 1594374212 928193 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nice thing about designing sudoku puzzles to be human-solvable is that id minisat doesn't find a solution within a few seconds, the puzzle probably won't be fun for a human. < 1594374213 139454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why? Maybe the reduction is exponential in the number of quantifier alternations or something like that.) < 1594374227 696126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least that's my heuristic. Maybe it's not entirely true. < 1594374260 19329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that's true. < 1594374277 837987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine the converse doesn't work :P < 1594374280 688979 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to find solving sokoban fun. It's a nice game in theory, but actually playing it just doesn't work well for me. < 1594374306 629448 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I used to play Sokoban *a lot*. < 1594374314 61442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you find solving Stephen's Sausage Roll fun? < 1594374326 359812 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Only up to a point. < 1594374354 397730 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I found puzzles that were extremely restrictive with the SAT solver, so I thought they would be interesting for humans. < 1594374368 207993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it turns out to be too difficult, at least for me and a couple of other people. < 1594374373 354038 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, you are right < 1594374375 131298 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Petting_Zoo#PH < 1594374376 14015 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up on it, around the point where puzzles started to rely on detaching the fork. < 1594374381 334704 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that confirms your statement < 1594374401 634340 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what Stephen's Sausage Roll is < 1594374449 975703 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I have an algorithm design question for you #esoteric < 1594374509 629320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSR put some twists on a Sokoban-like game. < 1594374563 437378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My main complaint is actually that you don't get access to all the levels from the start, even though there's actually a reason for that... < 1594374620 130504 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have N small boxes, where let's say N <= 40000. Each box has two states: empty or full. Initially all boxes are full. Then I want to perform an interactive sequence of three types of steps. (A) Query the state of a bunch of boxes. (B) Set a bunch of boxes from full to empty. (C) Given a number K, fill exactly K empty boxes such that the set of < 1594374620 658585 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boxes filled is chosen uniformly among all empty boxes and independently from previous random choices. < 1594374697 131371 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice, the boxes are in pages often accessed together, so I'll query all boxes in a few page together or fill a set of boxes that are some of the boxes within a few pages. < 1594374720 194249 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know at least one way to do this, but I'd like the best practical way, in terms of memory efficiency and time efficiency. < 1594374790 584114 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh I forgot how this works, wasn't there a way to turn the sausages... < 1594374826 702801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I know. < 1594374858 738574 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best method I found so far is to store the empty boxes in a binary heap, with a dense index table from all boxes into the heap. For (A) we just look up which indexes are filled in the index table; for (B) we add boxes to the heap with random weights, (C) we remove the box with the highest weigh repeatedly K times. < 1594374928 359600 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can alternately use a treap, sorted by box number, in which case you don't need a separate indexing table because you can traverse a section of the treap in order, but this doesn't seem better, it takes slightly more memory, and now you have child pointers among the nodes which a binary heap doesn't need. < 1594374943 886620 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They involve a bunch of random access in either case. < 1594374977 254300 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably some better method by amortizing stuff, marking how many more boxes you have to fill in each page, but it doesn't seem trivial. < 1594375019 202700 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does my question make sense? < 1594375129 657804 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So (A) and (B) are just operations on a boolean array? < 1594375191 220876 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which does not support (C) efficiently by itself, but I'm trying to understand the problem here.) < 1594375473 107475 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it not? < 1594375489 353563 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll have to scan the whole thing < 1594375542 827466 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was thinking of a slightly different problem. < 1594375576 676835 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm referring to the thing starting with "I have N small boxes" < 1594375601 767354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly I'm trying to clarify what (A) and (B) are. < 1594375661 879682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "bunch of boxes" is confusing me. < 1594375663 832350 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: all of them are operations on a boolean array, yes, but if you have only a boolean array, (C) will be slow. that's correct. < 1594375689 592711 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each box is a boolean < 1594375695 980852 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're numbered to be in an array < 1594375715 138319 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if they aren't entirely dense that doesn't matter, we'll just never empty those boxes then) < 1594375719 440226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah "they're numbered" is what I was fishing for. < 1594375754 138583 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hah, it feels odd to type "fishing" without 'ph'.) < 1594375781 609027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fiphing? < 1594375798 69633 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the phunster at work < 1594375801 190321 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1594375858 329977 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594375875 487744 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could keep a counter for each page for the number of balls to be distributed < 1594375900 151726 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to do (C), I iterate on all pages and generate the balls I add to the count in the correct distribution, < 1594375915 297371 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I think you can somehow do with binomial magic... I'll have to look that up < 1594375948 289717 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could even do that hierarchically on a high-arity tree with the boxes in the nodes < 1594376637 337688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the context of this problem? < 1594376787 64010 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the motivation is a hypothetical game where the balls are resources that the player can collect then spend, like coins or ammo, a box is a fixed place on the map where the player can collect the resource, but unlike in traditional games, you can't just collect infinitely many resources by just replaying the same one level (whichever is < 1594376787 479190 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy and fast and has lots of boxes), but there's also not just a finite amount of resources you can collect, they respawn in levels when you spend them. < 1594376848 824877 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pages are levels or rooms, or just regions of the map handled together for efficiency if there are no level/room boundaries. < 1594377338 824635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: not sure what you want to do with the page constraint https://paste.debian.net/1155884/ is a sketch of something that I might try < 1594377404 299046 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: pages are not a constraint, they're just a hint that may make it possible to optimize the real-world implementation, especially on a machine where RAM doesn't have uniform access time. < 1594377436 234806 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be useful because the heap solutions that I mentioned use a lot of ugly random access of single records each across many cache lines. < 1594377484 584977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing I'm sketching doesn't have brilliant locality properties either < 1594377499 51627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's way simpler than a heap < 1594377569 268030 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594377626 141473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's related to the trick that you use to get constant time operations (including initialization to zero) using two arrays) < 1594377646 379996 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Do you find solving Stephen's Sausage Roll fun? < 1594377665 348302 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this game a lot, but it's hard. I haven't completed it < 1594377665 348364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that trick, I was just thinking about that. < 1594377690 579038 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I was thinking about it after seeing your code. < 1594377778 798617 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1594377784 424429 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1594377897 351713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: how many sausages did you get? < 1594377922 217564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(174 here) < 1594377938 523441 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :105 < 1594377972 998656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel better ;) < 1594378010 441989 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, seriously, it's hard. It *starts out* with levels that would be hard in other games, and mostly it just gets harder. < 1594378021 993495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that's how I recall it, I've played this years ago. < 1594378125 821767 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently (looking at save files) May 3 2017 is when I started, May 13 2017 is when I solved my last level. < 1594378158 703870 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it starts out very very hard < 1594378162 849014 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, you have a right-growable array that stores the indexes of the empty boxes in an arbitrary order, and a full array that stores for each box the index into that full array. You keep the two in sync. < 1594378164 127296 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it gets way harder < 1594378175 489618 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the courage of a game to do that, baba is like that too < 1594378196 87105 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1594378212 93708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Baba has some tutorial levels at least. Hmm. < 1594378225 582122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm confused by your code, actually. < 1594378244 816359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried, but I may have gotten it wrong. < 1594378253 261501 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For (A) you just look in the second array, for (B) you push a value to the first array an mark its index in the second, for (C) you repeatedly pick a random element from the first array, remove it, keep it dense by moving an element from the there, adjust first array in both places. < 1594378267 205908 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does work and is better than what I suggested. I should have thought of it, thank you. < 1594378279 432923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Say you empty 3, and then empty 1, and then fill 3. What's the state you're supposed to be in? < 1594378294 405909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the idea is that -1 in `filled` represents filled boxes and each empty box has a corresponding entry in the `avail` array; these two entries point to each other. < 1594378317 452495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I understand that bit, with the dense and sparse arrays. < 1594378327 461535 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also confused by the code, but to be fair int-e said "sketch" < 1594378328 666582 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I'm missing an update to `filled` when I move avail[i] = avail[free-1]; < 1594378335 304008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, I may have gotten it wrong. < 1594378354 450663 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you want to be setting avail[filled[i]] < 1594378360 349004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The missing bit is setting filled[avail[i]] = i. < 1594378392 337872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a bit more complicated than that? < 1594378416 552474 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :filled[avail[i] = avail[free-1]] = i; < 1594378443 715336 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more local version needs to do the ugly binomial calculations, which is sort of a tradeoff of more time for less storage. < 1594378474 299566 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not sure why it needs to be more complicated than that < 1594378538 416262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose C++ frowns upon using `free` as an identifier ;-) < 1594378540 834731 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could do an intermediate thing where instead of binomial calculations you just repeatedly increase the delay counters by one. You still need a weighted random choice, but that's not that bad. < 1594378559 376240 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think it only frowns upon using it as a *global* identifier or macro < 1594378580 514938 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're fine using it as local < 1594378640 441654 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also don't try to use j0 as a global function name in C, as I learned from mysterious linker errors... < 1594378681 762572 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bessel < 1594378683 894736 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor nl, beacuse curses is old and pollutes the global C namespace with nonsense like that, and we couldn't get rid of it yet < 1594378749 421548 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: I've started a new game just to see what it was like and... how do you figure out what the objective is ;) < 1594378760 400541 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's part of the fun! < 1594378773 108017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I remember it. < 1594378786 122506 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the objective is to get the credit screen to appear... wait, what game is this? < 1594378792 716898 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't recall how I figured it out. < 1594378797 224371 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :replaying it, I find different win conditions < 1594378808 127659 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it still the sausage roll? < 1594378814 159120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1594378838 561426 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry, I was thinking baba < 1594378848 655213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1594378857 988552 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baba made it easier, I think < 1594378921 971286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see.I deleted all my progress anyway < 1594378948 659224 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Baba has the first level say "flag is win" or some such thing, right? < 1594379035 323700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: OK, I think you want something like: { int f = filled[i]; if (f != -1) { avail[f] = avail[free-1]; filled[avail[f]] = f; filled[i] = -1; free--; } } < 1594379070 339791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't ever want avail[i], I think, probably you meant avail[f]? That's the bit that was confusing me. < 1594379126 589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: yes. and the level is designed in a way that doesn't tempt you to mess with the text < 1594379195 876529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/baba_start.png < 1594379296 801529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ah yes. that looks like what I want indeed. < 1594379300 976829 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594379328 911188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some universe you would have different types for sparse and dense indices. < 1594379332 675672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not this one, though.) < 1594379346 844233 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this solution is good. I like it. < 1594379406 758567 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: thanks for the link < 1594379461 527616 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: nah, I'd just use uint16_t or uint32_t for both, depending on whether I can have more than 65000 coins < 1594379484 915526 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean machine types but type checker types. < 1594379504 29161 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's actually a great idea, but I do think it's easy to mix them up. < 1594379519 448182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the problem of sampling k integers (in the range [0,N)) without replacement? < 1594379553 169937 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but still no, because this is simple enough to not require types. I might choose better identifier names of course. < 1594379572 578540 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I tried to figure it out I came up with an OK answer, with the right asymptotic behavior, but it turned out there was an even nicer algorithm. < 1594379581 404681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Yes, that's why I said it's not in this universe. < 1594379668 538389 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, I actually researched that. the dense case (k is on the order of magnitude of N) is well known. For the sparse case, TAOCP has one solution, but there's another solution that seems equally good, and was either invented or independently reinvented by Roger Hui, and that I should send as an improvement ticket to TAOCP, but I'm lazy and < 1594379669 76694 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have been putting it off as Knuth won't work on volume 2 for a long time. < 1594379695 233464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: What are the two solutions? < 1594379697 355007 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think either solution is clearly nicer than the other. < 1594379722 10936 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My solution used a lookup table, int->int, whereas the nicer solution only used a set of ints. < 1594379730 290184 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, not a lookup table. < 1594379736 449750 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A map, modified at runtime. < 1594379772 851343 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: both solutions need a hash of size constant times k where the keys are indexes up to N, but in both cases the hash part is easy because you can use a trivial hash function because you will be storing random keys only. < 1594379782 908335 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are two ways to use that hash to pick a sample of size k. < 1594379810 375465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: whoa, somehow I didn't make that observation, that you can use a simpler hash table because your keys are guaranteed random. < 1594379835 46673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are they? Hmm. < 1594379860 486120 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe you should read TAOCP then? the solution in TAOCP is to use the hash to store which items have been picked, keep picking a random item out of the N, redo the pick if you have already picked the same item, and repeat until you got k successes. < 1594379864 225766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Oh looks like 105 is actually a relatively nice phase of the game where you have plenty of levels to choose from (but it's hard to say) < 1594379895 714641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Redo the pick? Doesn't that have arbitrarily long worst case runtime? < 1594379914 876386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do this with exactly k calls to the RNG. < 1594379920 99709 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but again it's uniform random so it's exponentially fast, < 1594379948 734616 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in both cases you do this only if k is significantly less than N, so the probability that you pick the wrong thing is less than k/N, which is less than 1/5 < 1594379962 738194 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just do the normal dense solution if 5*k>=N < 1594379987 863505 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the difficulty curve isa lot kinder < 1594379989 992585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Anyway, at the point I reached I have one level to solve and I got totally stuck on that one. Which is... meh. < 1594379990 747619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but there are nice algorithms that just works in all cases. < 1594379992 944358 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still ends up being a super hard game < 1594380001 644691 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e in SSR? < 1594380007 183858 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: yeah in SSR < 1594380012 264796 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that in the fire zone? < 1594380025 59655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm past that. < 1594380026 476253 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roger Hui's solution is to simulate the dense algorithm, which maintains a permutation that is initially the identity permutation. It will change k random items and the k last items in that. So you store the k last items in a dense array, and any other items that don't match the identity in your hash. In this case the hash has values too, not just < 1594380026 967625 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :keys. < 1594380028 366171 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh exciting < 1594380031 629254 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought this was the last zone < 1594380052 611595 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Oh, that's my solution. < 1594380056 377146 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case there's still potential redo: it comes from the algorithm to pick a uniform random number from a size that's something between N and N-k+1 < 1594380057 309477 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a sort of vikings zone < 1594380074 632442 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, that's why I think Roger Hui may have independently reinvented the solution < 1594380088 500452 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Floyd's solution is even better. < 1594380091 810317 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: note that generating the single random pick comes with a chance to redo in first place < 1594380108 518146 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Floyd's solution? < 1594380109 646897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, noted. < 1594380148 434907 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can have ANY solution with no chance to redo, because you have to pick one solution among binomial(N,k), and that's usually not a power of 2 < 1594380198 500646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was taking "pick a single random number in [0,n)" as a primitive. < 1594380222 795973 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can probably only be a power of 2 if k<=1, and k=1 is a special case with well-known solution, k=0 is trivial < 1594380228 508309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can remember Floyd's solution and the phrasing I liked. < 1594380232 920685 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594380233 23676 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594380233 23718 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.140.76 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594380233 153525 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594380233 412094 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1594380261 666675 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can do that, but then you're cheating with accounting. in exchange for perhaps slightly more retries, the TAOCP solution has less bookkeeping and an easier implementation. < 1594380281 820416 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hash table stores only values, not keys, and you only have to modify one element, not two. < 1594380287 665376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a fair argument that I hadn't thought of. < 1594380303 775 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no special case for when you pick one of the last elements either. < 1594380305 561791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floyd's algorithm also stored only values rather than key-value pairs. < 1594380348 16023 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can remember it exactly. It took me a bit to convince myself it was correct, but with the right phrasing it's hopefully obvious. < 1594380350 813635 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if there's a "Floyd's solution" that isn't clearly worse than the TAOCP solution, why is that not in TAOCP in first place? < 1594380371 623968 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, the same is true about Roger Hui's algorithm, since I read it in source code form < 1594380374 175623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. I've only read the SAT section of TAOCP. < 1594380398 808 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1594380409 622793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: there's a huge area to the south that goes all the way back (eastward) to the starting island... and probably beyond but that's about where I'm stuck < 1594380421 110791 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that solution is later or close in time to the third edition of vol 2 of course < 1594380451 434524 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1594380451 434587 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1594380451 434601 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.140.76 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594380451 434610 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1594380451 434618 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1594380580 530677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To sample k numbers < N: First sample a smaller set of k-1 numbers < N-1. Then choose a random number i < N. If i isn't in the smaller set, then just add it. If i is in the set, add N-1 instead. < 1594380629 237554 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1594380853 965610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr-south-of-start.png ... actually I'm stuck quite a bit east from there. < 1594380873 136783 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1594380885 723785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: and if I place the area correctly, the fire area is a good way west (and a bit to the north) from there. < 1594380895 454019 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ssr world is huge. < 1594380916 923133 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive restarted the game a couple times, to reintegrate the knowledge from earlier levels < 1594380931 226987 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i havent got past the fire zone yet < 1594380963 115318 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what the twist in that area was... I played one level where you had to kind of plan for your way back < 1594380997 286159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you had to work pretty hard on turning a roll by 90 degrees < 1594381022 979435 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-104-154.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594381054 380950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But meh, I think it'll just be an unfinished game for the time being. Lots of other games around. < 1594381111 219549 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what other games do you like? < 1594381193 447912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :IntSet sample(int N, int k) { IntSet s = empty_set(); for (int i = N - k + 1; i <= N; i++) { int v = rand(i); if (!has(s, v)) { add(s, v); } else { add(s, i-1); } } return s; } < 1594381205 288880 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594381227 377879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just better than the simulated shuffle algorithm I came up with (which I guess Hui did first?). < 1594381289 88171 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If TAOCP has a section on sampling naturals sparsely without replacement, and it doesn't mention this algorithm, that's a glaring omission. > 1594381299 931645 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03The Esolanger 5* 10New user account < 1594381300 818239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that's the situation of the world. < 1594381320 5895 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :claim your $2.56 < 1594381340 895241 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know who did first. I heard the solution from Roger Hui, and he confirmed in an email that he came up with the solution idependently, but this is something multiple people could have invented. < 1594381504 792878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: I guess the genre that I play most is click&point adventures. But I kind of want to finish a first person shooter at some point. I almost made it through Bioshock Infinite... and then I lost the savegame in an OS reinstall (because it was in a place I didn't think to back up). > 1594381505 766605 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75723&oldid=75539 5* 03The Esolanger 5* (+188) 10/* Introductions */ < 1594381567 756034 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: it's not an error but a significant suggestion, so it's worth only $0.32, and that only if you're the first to suggest it < 1594381576 371216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the only hard constraint is that I don't do multiplayer. < 1594381595 466123 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't understand why that solution works yet < 1594381721 159171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't feel uniform < 1594381734 983855 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. But it uses trickery. < 1594381838 259732 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of want to finish a first person shooter at some point => I think the most popular ones are Doom, Hexen, Perfect Dark, Half-Life. < 1594381859 373631 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most popular as story in single-player mode that is, as opposed to multiplayer fights. < 1594381884 365435 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should probably at least know about those four before deciding what to play. < 1594381909 247544 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I think I get it. When you use i-1 you pretend that the element you clashed it actually had that index. < 1594381932 529445 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But using a set obscures that fact, you should really sample an ordered list. < 1594381987 91750 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: both the TAOCP algorithm and Roger Hui's algorithm actually samples an ordered list < 1594382069 358476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you've sampled k numbers < N, stored in a set S. So each number 1594383330 402449 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Obfuna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75724&oldid=36826 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-3) 10 < 1594383352 339956 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, int-e does a linear traversal, which works for small k only < 1594383357 819307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't actually read your description of Roger Hui's solution carefully. My solution doesn't store the dense array, only the hash table, and extracted the result from the hash table keys later. < 1594383372 382512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Sure, but if you want to store both an array and a set, you can do that. < 1594383385 677092 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594383390 367129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same transformation applies to both algorithms. < 1594383395 333350 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: or you can permute randomly afterwards < 1594383396 302133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, hmm, maybe I'm just saying nonsense. < 1594383536 497131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you don't care about the order of the elements, you can just store a hash table, without the dense array, for the algorithm you described. < 1594383538 287687 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAOCP 3.4.2. exercise 16. and it asks for a sorted output, so that Floyd thing is acceptable for that < 1594383550 707156 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, and you only store keys in the hash table, not values < 1594383618 321878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have TAOCP unfortunately. > 1594383716 325201 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Recurl14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75725&oldid=23463 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+66) 10notice < 1594383765 783786 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this is presented as an exercise, not a full thing discussed in the main text? > 1594383778 651583 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75726&oldid=58495 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10fix term < 1594383790 666681 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1594383795 960009 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dense case is in the main text < 1594383800 3547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: again, I wrote that code not to be fast but to be clear and simple < 1594383802 313350 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it has no obligation to be complete. > 1594383814 244166 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amicus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75727&oldid=58499 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10erm < 1594383822 643803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: because I didn't understand why the sampling was uniform when it was phrased in terms of a set > 1594383844 586939 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus Severus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75728&oldid=57642 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-7) 10unpipe & term > 1594383883 252473 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hyperamicus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75729&oldid=58494 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10link > 1594383896 879054 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hyperamicus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75730&oldid=75729 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10user a < 1594383904 581732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the dense case "do a Fisher-Yates shuffle, but stop once you've shuffled the last k elements of the array"? < 1594383921 15478 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes > 1594383931 873064 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75731&oldid=67212 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Overview */ < 1594383945 634652 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main text also discusses the problem where you read N records in sequence once and want to keep k random records from them, but you don't know N in advance > 1594383955 262051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75732&oldid=75731 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+23) 10/* External resources */ cat langs < 1594383978 172400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing called reservoir sampling? < 1594384007 522747 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1594384014 627310 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wait, I might be wrong here about the dense case, let me reread < 1594384126 626481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of these things seem almost too simple to have names. < 1594384159 781451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh the "Add file" UI isn't new, it's just much more visible now. < 1594384179 327624 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main text says "Algorithm P can easily be modified to yield a random permutation of a < 1594384179 884785 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :random combination" where Algorithm P is the shuffle < 1594384197 13195 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1594384220 418502 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they don't really have names to me, I just look them up in Knuth and refer to a chapter number or algorithm in a chapter number or an exercise in a chapter number < 1594384238 97175 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAOCP is one of the bibles for this, so those references are as good as canonical names > 1594384241 483293 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07StubScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75733&oldid=73062 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+364) 10interpreter and cats > 1594384256 522273 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07StubScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75734&oldid=75733 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+6) 10bold < 1594384358 269651 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, a few of them also have fancy names < 1594384376 804321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, nothing wrong with naming things, but I think I came up with simple versions of both Fisher-Yates shuffles and reservoir sampling when I first thought about these problems. < 1594384389 126982 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need those fancy names to be able to mention them in the short description of what will be in the exam < 1594384390 246615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that that means it was trivial originally, of course. > 1594384436 644906 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BrainCurses/implementation.js14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75735&oldid=53986 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+22) 10back < 1594384456 390591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Floyd's algorithm I did not come up with, even though it's super duper simple and (in retrospect) obviously the right thing. < 1594384469 699563 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remembering which name refers to what theorem was actually non-trivial for me for the calculus exams, and I think the dual problem of writing concise but clear names on the exam topic sheet is also nontrivial. < 1594384482 625715 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I read the algorithm, didn't understand it, and then realized that it was "obviously" correct in the shower the next day. < 1594384506 88032 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, as they say, programming has two hard problems, naming, off-by-one errors, and caching. > 1594384506 122887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BrainCurses14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75736&oldid=51089 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+18) 10 > 1594384578 468392 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75737&oldid=65587 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10ok < 1594384587 287700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh, the paper I linked to actually mentions a variation of your variation. > 1594384601 809011 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lisp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75738&oldid=70712 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10 < 1594384605 802534 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the third page, "Floyd's Permutation Algorithm". < 1594384610 999276 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'll have to look at that later then < 1594384618 438195 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing we have channel logs > 1594384620 843716 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Topline14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75739&oldid=69673 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-8) 10rm redundancy > 1594384691 86132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Urban Mller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75740&oldid=69972 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10 > 1594384775 556210 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75741&oldid=70769 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* Computational class */ link > 1594384864 61255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75742&oldid=70604 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10l > 1594384911 806873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BitCycle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75743&oldid=50900 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* Computational class */ l > 1594384961 208118 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Haddock14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75744&oldid=65159 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+55) 10/* Implementing Haddock */ cats > 1594385016 204236 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75745&oldid=72890 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+56) 10/* External resources */ cats > 1594385156 62130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Obfuna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75746&oldid=75724 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+5) 10"a unary" is correct, "yoonary" has a consonant start sound > 1594385222 664662 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Back14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75747&oldid=75721 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10 < 1594385791 721543 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1594387712 566996 :BWBellairs[NNRF]!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric < 1594387793 803144 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1594387794 557484 :BWBellairs[NNRF]!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs NICK :BWBellairs < 1594387828 605454 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tsacgxdiuyzmdrkk QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1594387858 283427 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1594387916 223923 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso JOIN :#esoteric < 1594387921 55775 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbakyafzimfhdqyg JOIN :#esoteric < 1594388081 250089 :deschutron!~deschutro@2406:3400:512:c8c0:2d8:61ff:fe2e:ce6a JOIN :#esoteric < 1594388478 142158 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I found my slitherlink solver. < 1594388519 392815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Haskell, uses an unpublished minisat binding, and has snarky comments that are pretty useless. < 1594388578 584327 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, for posterity: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/SL.hs < 1594388688 521394 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the input format was. < 1594389231 751959 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's the dimenstions on two lines, then the puzzle constraints as digits, with '4' for no constraint) < 1594389266 563694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I have no sample inputs. not that it matters because I won't be compiling this anyway) < 1594389916 851870 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's Haskell, uses an unpublished minisat binding, and has snarky comments that are pretty useless. => rofoldr > 1594391037 129582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75748&oldid=75670 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+2) 10 > 1594391565 652412 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75749&oldid=75748 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+2) 10 > 1594391738 130294 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75750&oldid=75749 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-7) 10 > 1594391892 314909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75751&oldid=75750 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+55) 10 > 1594391911 482744 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75752&oldid=75751 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-5) 10 > 1594392038 930007 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75753&oldid=75752 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-16) 10 > 1594392337 505576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75754&oldid=75753 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+88) 10 < 1594393441 111466 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed < 1594394545 250689 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-6-58.79c806.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1594394848 487462 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75755&oldid=75754 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Syntax */ grm > 1594395780 866593 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Dig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75756&oldid=75691 5* 03DeybisMelendez 5* (+534) 10/* Length of Duration Underground */ > 1594396677 117502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ReThue14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75757&oldid=73214 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+118) 10 < 1594397143 690549 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1594397814 243765 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ni14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75758&oldid=75187 5* 03DeybisMelendez 5* (+531) 10Major update > 1594397911 887240 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ni14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75759&oldid=75758 5* 03DeybisMelendez 5* (+3) 10little error > 1594398321 965222 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SYCPOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75760&oldid=53791 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+56) 10 > 1594398342 422654 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07COBOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75761&oldid=66152 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+6) 10 < 1594398928 689100 :joel2!~joel@2607:fea8:3360:2287:10da:67ff:fec1:6437 NICK :lucky < 1594398934 747939 :lucky!~joel@2607:fea8:3360:2287:10da:67ff:fec1:6437 QUIT :Changing host < 1594398934 748002 :lucky!~joel@unaffiliated/lucky JOIN :#esoteric > 1594400289 708569 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75762&oldid=68163 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+15) 10fix tmp > 1594400297 317257 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75763&oldid=75762 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10link > 1594400351 195080 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Befunge/index.php14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75764&oldid=30388 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10 > 1594401401 80742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75765&oldid=75755 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-4) 10 > 1594401408 657251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07COW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75766&oldid=72358 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+28) 10cat > 1594401419 304583 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07COW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75767&oldid=75766 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* External resources */ > 1594401895 904359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75768&oldid=75765 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+829) 10+hello world compiled < 1594402355 462670 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1594402965 595300 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mind reader14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75769&oldid=68828 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-776) 10I'm ashamed of this < 1594403244 960328 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1594403245 84502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mind reader14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75770&oldid=75769 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+108) 10 > 1594403293 124790 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07InDec14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75771&oldid=44554 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+37) 10ca > 1594403334 339293 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Meander14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75772&oldid=73035 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+24) 10ns notice > 1594403369 163612 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AlphaBeta14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75773&oldid=66410 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-20) 10rm reduntant pipes > 1594403466 767619 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Re:direction14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75774&oldid=58999 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10/* Hello world program */ ln > 1594403545 614787 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Colambda14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75775&oldid=20549 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10 > 1594403651 186461 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Numeric Batch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75776&oldid=39048 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+47) 10 > 1594403668 230669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Numeric Batch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75777&oldid=75776 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Information */ fix > 1594403743 506050 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Gopher14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75778&oldid=64377 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+38) 10link, cat, __quine > 1594404863 429386 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75779&oldid=75715 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1366) 10 < 1594405680 885004 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric > 1594405953 840336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75780&oldid=75779 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+654) 10/* Truth-machine */ is tc < 1594405988 896484 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a musing about programming concept where I want to explain to you #esoteric teddy bear style, and ask for references and names < 1594406118 594436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how all APLs have this feature where a lot of basic operations, including most arithmetic like multiplication, automatically maps over arrays, so if you write (x + y) where y is an array then that's the same as (map (x +) y) < 1594406143 645762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only this gets more complicated because of multi-dimensional arrays and because of uncurried multi-arity functions > 1594406304 684214 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eitherf*ck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75781&oldid=68887 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+25) 10 > 1594406374 850003 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mindwhipper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75782&oldid=70028 5* 03Asasnat 5* (+155) 10 > 1594406469 430163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75783&oldid=75780 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+136) 10 > 1594406488 936888 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75784&oldid=75783 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+6) 10/* Computational class */ > 1594406594 570664 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mindwhipper14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75785&oldid=75782 5* 03Asasnat 5* (+189) 10 > 1594406618 35574 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mindwhipper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75786&oldid=75785 5* 03Asasnat 5* (+27) 10 > 1594406727 88986 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75787&oldid=75784 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+32) 10/* BREAK */ > 1594406763 702518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75788&oldid=75787 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-18) 10/* END */ > 1594406979 914910 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow/(Unnamed language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75789&oldid=75788 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-2468) 10Blanked the page > 1594406995 454594 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point Break14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75790 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2501) 10add Point Break > 1594407103 116314 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Poochiewuddledumpling-Boobledarling14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75791&oldid=35646 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+63) 10link & impl > 1594407143 341521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DmilkaSTD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75792&oldid=75683 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-1056) 10 > 1594407214 267754 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-ASM:814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75793&oldid=75768 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+91) 10 > 1594407235 546460 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Code is eso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75794&oldid=75406 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+91) 10 > 1594407250 151825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MineScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75795&oldid=69873 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+91) 10 > 1594407269 256453 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asvi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75796&oldid=74387 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (+91) 10 > 1594407282 11803 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asvi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75797&oldid=75796 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-230) 10 > 1594407491 16009 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Anarchysm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75798&oldid=75240 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-23) 10 > 1594407626 645908 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75799&oldid=75698 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+18) 10/* P */ +[[Point Break]] > 1594407671 957592 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fscratch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75800&oldid=74654 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-296) 10 > 1594407688 170522 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75801&oldid=75800 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5* (-60) 10 > 1594407739 812947 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PPAP++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75802&oldid=60767 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+171) 10 > 1594407747 530611 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PPAP++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75803&oldid=75802 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10/* External resources */ > 1594407839 244345 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75804&oldid=75699 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+77) 10/* Languages */ < 1594408774 446649 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: please go on < 1594408903 19205 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally I sat up to listen to a recording of a course on Clifford algebras but this is just the introduction and overview I hadn’t yet climbed over (in that course). Want my knowledge on them be systematic and general, and hopefully I’ll get spinors after it < 1594408908 636280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry I am sidetracked < 1594408914 463946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll return < 1594408960 304517 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and there is some bibliography! < 1594409141 414741 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: BTW that’s an interesting topic for a language design—an unambiguous notation for various function actions which is simple to use. What APL does may be one extreme and what e. g. Haskell does may be another (though with careful type classes, one can make (+) work in interesting ways and at the same time not too mysteriously) < 1594409219 89713 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1594409516 854025 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, so in APL all arrays are mapped over like this, but there's also a possible design where ordinary arrays don't have this property, but you have a special type of immutable arrays that does this, and ways to convert both ways. The only language I know that clearly takes this path is perl6, where the latter kind are called junctions. J and its boxed arrays are somewhat similar, but in J the < 1594409522 882878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :default array type is the unboxed one that does map through. < 1594409570 225639 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you could also imagine a language where the mapping is done not in the primitives but in every function by default, so if you define a function the simplest way, it will map over all its array arguments, but you can define special kinds of functions that don't do this and let you introspect an array eg. index it. < 1594409648 586236 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course for some functions, mapping outside and mapping inside are equivalent, or are related by transposing the axis of the results, and in those cases an interpreter may transparently optimize between them, in both directions in fact because sometimes one is better sometimes the other, and < 1594409711 457997 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can even optimize to the middle ground where it breaks an input array to L1-cache-sized chunks and calls the function for each chunk, looping over the elements of the chunks in the primitives that the function calls. < 1594409779 888036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now there's another phenomenon: perl 5 has lists where if you pass the list to an ordinary function, it will automatically splat it to multiple arguments. Mathematica has that kind of list too, IIRC called List, but it's not the default kind of array. In both cases, there are some functions and/or builtins < 1594409816 10360 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :where arguments aren't splatted, and these can be used to introspect such a list, although a vararg function can introspect them too if you have vararg functions. < 1594409840 897423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can even do this one with static typing if you only allow this sort of list to have a length known at compile time. < 1594409847 517868 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: in Mathematica, it should be a Sequence if I understood correctly < 1594409899 420085 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now what I'd like to know is if there's a name for these two types of immutable arrays, and/or the phenomenon where a language has them. I think the former is called "array languages", that's the grouping for APL and matlab/octave. < 1594409914 198797 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iirc maple also has the latter kind of lists. < 1594409918 913946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure about that. < 1594409931 610142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a third phenomenon, which is not about lists, but might be related here. < 1594409990 126961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely in Mathematica, when you call an ordinary function, it first evaluates each of the arguments that you pass, just like an ordinary function in any language, and this applies to new functions you define. But you can define special macro-like functions that don't do this, and they can do anything they want with their unevaluated arguments. < 1594410031 381863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normal languages either always evaluate the arguments of functions before calling, which is eager evaluation, or postpone evaluating them to when they're first needed, which is lazy evaluation, < 1594410049 358169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some languages like scheme allow you to define macros that do neither, and can introspect their unevaluated arguments. < 1594410109 420997 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica also has a simple container that contains one unevaluated value, called Hold, and maple sort of has its equivalent, backticks, except that in maple, there are some arithmetic evaluation rules that are always done even inside backticks. < 1594410162 900756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think cpressey has a language where functions are primarily macro-like, but the standard library has a macro to define a lambda function, which is a special kind of macro that always evaluates its arguments before doing anything else. < 1594410182 69464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And doesn't access the unevaluated arguments in any way other than throught their evaluations.) < 1594410220 721008 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica went even further and added Defer in ≈v8 which works thus: Defer[e] evaluates into unevaluated e and then you can evaluate it once more and that will evaluate e < 1594410221 990215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd also like to know the name of this feature, or more examples for any of the above. < 1594410253 298778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ah, I know an example for that primitive! < 1594410289 416834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor) < 1594410305 880918 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also there's TeX, in which normal functions that you define are macro-like, they don't evaluate their argument < 1594410358 489915 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course if everything is macro-like then the question is, how do you actually call those macros < 1594410366 151115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I think languages with sufficiently lispy macros may have several different approaches to the second thing too, though the good way I think is to treat arguments as valid ASTs. Sequence-like splats were in some lispy languages too < 1594410375 372463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and TeX's answer is, the top level evaluates a macro call < 1594410428 829693 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1594410430 358751 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weyl algebras < 1594410431 867777 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also SIMPLE is somewhat based on m4, which also has this defer feature < 1594410431 978676 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, expansion evaluates macro calls, and expansion can sometimes occur inside of other stuff too. Some tokens are unexpandable and are executed only after they reach the top level, though. < 1594410471 918788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, inside romannumeral IIRC, which you can use as a kludge to initiate expansion in a place that doesn't normally expand anything < 1594410563 618399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :frankly I don't really understand how TeX works, and I understand METAFONT to an even lesser degree. the latter has to do with TeX/METAFONT's localized tokens combined that interacts with the expansion and with multi-token names in a way that I don't understand < 1594410566 368749 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, \romannumeral will expand its argument, and is expandable, but it won't expand if expansion is suppressed. < 1594410598 229554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not a TeX hacker and really don't feel how TeX programming works < 1594410615 769550 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One way to expand something when expansion is normally suppressed is to use \expandafter, and you can also use \edef or \xdef to expand the definition of a macro at definition time, rather than later < 1594410634 45776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's some really interesting esoteric parts of TeX and METAFONT that might be worth for someone to study for furthering esoteric languages < 1594410704 904075 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In METAFONT, you can define a macro to evaluate its arguments either before expanding its definition or to don't do that; if the type of argument is expr then it will evaluate it and substitute a "capsule" where its name occurs inside of its body. < 1594410712 973693 :bangyen!6c1cb4d2@pool-108-28-180-210.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594410796 640662 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it is Knuth who devised TeX in all its esotericity is bothering < 1594410846 834472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: why? < 1594410875 101226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that's one of the defining features of Knuth < 1594410891 273973 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well he wanted to write software to be simple I hope < 1594410922 677567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean that's one of the defining features of Knuth => is MIX as esoteric? I haven’t look at it in detail and assumed it’s pretty normal < 1594410933 289076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple in what sense? he had a goal, to be able to typeset TAOCP vol 2 and further volumes. he made whatever he could for that. < 1594410971 130465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: MIX isn't esoteric, but it's old, in the sense that TeX is old in that it doesn't have lambdas and lexically local variables because back then those weren't standard features of an interpreted language < 1594410988 451340 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1594411004 377894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MMIX may be esoteric, and I argue for that it is in the wiki article, but it's stealth esoteric in that it does a good attempt at the esotericness being plausibly deniable, < 1594411033 889473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it seem like it could be a real machine, but make it subtly impractical to make sure it will never be a real machine on hardware, or at least not one that spreads. < 1594411063 850274 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594411103 725404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If MIX is esoteric in that sense, then I'm too old to notice that, I don't know much about archeological computer design, and don't recognize any way how it's not like what could be a real computer at that time. < 1594411126 91265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe someone who designed computers back then and really understood what that entails would notice such details. < 1594411203 291001 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some features I don't know if it is, such as automatic character set conversion, and having the possibility of both binary and decimal versions of the same kind of computer, but maybe they are, I don't know < 1594411310 404635 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what do you mean by automatic character set conversion? any Hollerith card reader does that, because there are 12 holes but the reader encodes them in an Ebcdic byte that has less than 12 bits. MIX just uses an encoding to a character code that isn't used elsewhere. < 1594411331 683332 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but MIX doesn't use EBCDIC. < 1594411360 728297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses a similar encoding that is easy to encode or decode between Hollerith cards, at least on a decimal MIX < 1594411384 235155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for letters and numbers, bottom hole encodes the second digit, top hole if any encodes first digit < 1594411411 156207 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it differs because EBCDIC is an eight-bit encoding and MIX has six-bit bytes < 1594411426 697656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and EBCDIC has a shitton of variants, like ASCII has a lot of ISO-646-* variants < 1594411462 877376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIX character code probaly has variants with different printers printing different ones, and possibly for Hollerith cards too < 1594411489 159031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :since some codes don't correspond to characters, or correspond to characters that not all card readers or card punchers or printers or teletypes can read/write < 1594411538 127024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why the two different version of what two of the three greek characters in the character sets are isn't necessarily a bug, there may be MIX printers with different characters of the corresponding head or place of the head < 1594411566 76477 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how 8-bit computers have video cards with different accented characters in some places by different ROMs < 1594411606 247947 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 8-bit BASIC-based personal computers where instead of @ they display an É or something < 1594411627 432692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to write PRINTÉ instead of PRINT@ to write to a text file < 1594411652 639916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the difference isn't in how BASIC works, just what character is shown on the monitor < 1594411908 17267 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think how some of the punctuations are encoded in MIX are not a standard card code, nor is the encoding of spaces matching codes of punch cards < 1594411958 425310 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is that even for punctuation that all MIX card readers are required to be able to read? < 1594411990 803045 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not remember, unfortunately. But, I suppose that is a valid point. < 1594412056 318769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, crap, my lip is swollen. If this worsense too much doesn't improve soon enough, I'll have to go to a weekend doctor or dentist, which always sucks. < 1594412070 661413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It started to swell during the afternoon. < 1594412334 370528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the swelling is moving around my lip, counterclockwise when viewed from the font < 1594412337 526134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the front < 1594412769 740796 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1594415131 390947 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594415256 140844 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.4.55.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1594415748 375983 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1594416049 204106 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@nat-pool-13-124.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1594416232 718356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the swelling worsens a lot, then I'll need a night dentist/doctor, which is even worse < 1594416249 273230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's true for just about any condition that may need a weekend doctor < 1594417651 742465 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-81.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a M:tG card that gives both you and the opponent an advantageous effect, but one of you get to choose who gets which one? < 1594417717 957970 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but, maybe, make up such a card. > 1594418435 848051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Eval14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75805&oldid=73752 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+99) 10 > 1594418460 23291 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Bangyen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75806&oldid=75722 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+11) 10 > 1594419198 272377 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dotlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75807&oldid=75720 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+64) 10/* Examples */ < 1594419667 862032 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1594420849 844503 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1594421005 932624 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1594421017 619230 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1594421374 757172 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1594421393 982329 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1594421532 954762 :mniip!~mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 606 seconds < 1594422160 100278 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1594422165 159949 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1594422265 799840 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:844d:dece:9bd4:fbb2 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1594424271 395302 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07*brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75808&oldid=34061 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10knil > 1594424321 226414 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75809&oldid=35160 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+3) 10nolc > 1594424370 67634 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keta14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75810&oldid=69685 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-193) 10stub template > 1594424411 700018 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75811&oldid=69692 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+10) 10 > 1594424448 235376 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75812&oldid=75685 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+40) 10/* yrotsiH */ > 1594424463 452298 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75813&oldid=75812 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-1) 10fix/* =yrotsiH */ > 1594424564 129711 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jelly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75814&oldid=49881 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+92) 10inter wiki < 1594424774 583649 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1594424793 269078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`" < 1594424795 259165 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:817) i wrote a better version once but it was broken \ 77) (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) < 1594424803 357554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1594424806 269422 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:tc//Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally. \ j//J started out as a synonym for I, but then branched out into an array of other uses. \ internationale//You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee. \ boredome//The Boredome is a dangerous place swarming with woodpeckers, dentists, and bookworms. \ stume//A stume cowears and goatears you. That is t < 1594424810 503375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1594424811 738774 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:he main reason why the often look so ackward. < 1594424856 977170 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1594425375 607565 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[077Basic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75815&oldid=65115 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+45) 10(Cat and bold and link and fix_hw)() > 1594425400 533603 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07High Rise14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75816&oldid=58740 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+4) 10Link > 1594425472 286151 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[076ix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75817&oldid=69810 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+8) 10Link bold > 1594425527 615400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[075-logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75818&oldid=20653 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+27) 10Cat