←2020-07-11 2020-07-12 2020-07-13→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:07:36 <esowiki> [[Keys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75849&oldid=62183 * Bangyen * (+100)
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02:38:46 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75850&oldid=75845 * Bangyen * (+30) /* Implementations */
02:53:38 <shachaf> int-e: Ah, now I agree that thinking of this algorithm as picking a permutation is obviously better.
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03:53:25 <zzo38> Book Mill {4} Artifact ;; Whenever you mill, if ~ is untapped, you gain that much life. ;; {4}: Mill 2 cards, and then put a card from your graveyard on the bottom of your library. This ability cannot be used if ~ is tapped. ;; Cycling {2}
04:03:21 <int-e> shachaf: My thinking was, the algorithm makes P(n,k) choices (permutations, k out of n), so if it's correct then there should be a bijection of runs to these permutations.
04:05:07 <shachaf> int-e: Right, once I thought that I realized it must be a permutation algorithm.
04:05:25 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFwHazFAPok (Nakamura plays Minesweeper) is a drinking game... count the number of times Nakamura says "last one"...
04:05:33 <shachaf> I wonder what one that makes P(n,k)/k! choices would look like.
04:06:44 <int-e> Hmm, hard to imagine, at least if those choices are supposed to be uniform.
04:07:11 <zzo38> In the Pokemon Pinball game, too many points can be earned in the Mewtwo stage. So, to avoid that, I play the Mewtwo stage without touching the flippers; you can try that if you want to.
04:07:18 <int-e> (non-uniformly you can break it down to binary choices which is relatively easy... pick the first element or not, unless forced)
04:08:04 <int-e> Which actually exists as an algorithm: to select k elements out of n, pick the first element with probability k/n, then proceed.
04:09:11 <Sgeo> Apparently in 2012 I posted "
04:09:11 <Sgeo> Can elephants juggle more than seven chainsaws?", and then made a comment about googling the entire question. That chat log is now the only result.
04:09:16 <int-e> (This is uniform in the end but relies on a non-uniform choice internally.)
04:09:54 <Sgeo> (My best first guess would be Triangle and Robert quote)
04:14:45 <int-e> hrm, there was a cute term for google queries with unique results... can't remember :-(
04:15:06 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75851&oldid=75816 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ mention [[Spiral Rise]], the new and improved version of this language
04:15:32 <Sgeo> Relatedly ohnorobot (comic search engine) is dead.
04:16:51 <Sgeo> No, just the embed on T&R
04:22:12 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75852&oldid=75774 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ punct
04:29:29 <esowiki> [[1+/Snippets]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75853&oldid=74306 * TwilightSparkle * (+96) /* Easy */
04:56:55 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75854&oldid=75137 * TwilightSparkle * (+158) /* Turing-Completeness */
05:05:32 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75855&oldid=75854 * TwilightSparkle * (+191) /* Turing-Completeness */
05:06:35 <esowiki> [[1+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75856&oldid=75855 * TwilightSparkle * (+78) /* Turing-Completeness */
05:10:56 <int-e> shachaf: the discouraging thing about trying to make C(n,k) choices uniformly when sampling combinations is that C(n,k) factors awkwardly. Things like... C(49,7) is divisible by 7, but C(56,7) is not...
05:12:12 <int-e> So I'm inclined to believe that there's no natural way to do this.
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06:23:49 <esowiki> [[Magic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75857&oldid=58724 * JimmyChaos * (+21) Added the category "thematic"
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06:25:56 <miracle2511> hello, is there any good C11 book for beginners?
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06:40:22 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75858&oldid=75842 * The Esolanger * (+187) Add New Commands
06:58:55 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75859&oldid=75858 * The Esolanger * (+321) Added jumping and ifs
06:59:53 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75860&oldid=75859 * The Esolanger * (+4) /* The Commands */
07:01:55 <esowiki> [[Spare Change]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75861&oldid=75860 * The Esolanger * (+23) Added category
07:14:05 <esowiki> [[6-5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75862 * The Esolanger * (+330) New Article!
07:15:11 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75863&oldid=75862 * The Esolanger * (+12) Added a list
07:15:40 <esowiki> [[6-5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75864&oldid=75863 * The Esolanger * (+0) /* Instructions */
07:16:29 <zzo38> Perhaps, in TeXnicard the possibility should be added for change sets to be digitally signed.
07:31:12 <int-e> . o O ( TeXnicard is, surprisingly, neither vaporware nor written in SQLite. )
07:33:55 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75865&oldid=24136 * Amakukha * (+1276) copied from [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]]
07:35:51 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75866 * D * (+564) Created page with "[[DDuuaall]] is a language invented by [[User:A]], inspired by [https://github.com/JonoCode9374/Vyxal Vyxal]'s zipmap. == I/O Specifications == There's implicit input, but you..."
07:35:56 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75867&oldid=75865 * Amakukha * (+97) +categories
07:36:10 <zzo38> Well, TeXnicard uses SQLite, although it is mostly written in C; some parts are written in PostScript, though.
07:37:24 <imode> what exactly is TeXnicard.
07:37:44 <imode> I strive to have a project that I'm passionate about as long as you've been passionate/talkative about TeXnicard.
07:38:05 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75868&oldid=75866 * D * (+346)
07:38:35 <zzo38> A Fossil repository can be found at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui Have you used Magic Set Editor or similar software? TeXnicard is an alternative program.
07:39:32 <imode> I have not.
07:39:37 <imode> don't even know what that is.
07:39:42 <zzo38> (The Fossil repository also has a description of it, and also includes full documentation and full source codes, so that you can see its working.)
07:40:04 <zzo38> It can be used to make cards for card games such as Magic: the Gathering.
07:40:15 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75869&oldid=75868 * D * (+370) /* Hello, World! */
07:41:48 <zzo38> Does that help to explain it? Do you like to make up any custom cards for Magic: the Gathering?
07:42:49 <imode> I don't, but that's neat! really neat.
07:44:18 <zzo38> What about other card games?
07:45:25 <imode> I don
07:45:29 <imode> *don't play card games.
07:45:32 <zzo38> (There are, as far as I know, two other alternatives to MSE as well, although I do not know much about them.)
07:45:43 <zzo38> imode: O, OK.
07:46:14 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75870&oldid=75867 * Amakukha * (+374)
07:46:47 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75871&oldid=75869 * D * (+566)
07:47:06 <esowiki> [[Timeline of golfing languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75872&oldid=64652 * Amakukha * (+8)
07:47:31 <esowiki> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75873&oldid=73001 * Amakukha * (+4) /* APL */
07:51:37 <zzo38> In writing TeXnicard, I found a bug in Ghostscript with the printobject and writeobject commands, which I have managed to fix, so if you use those commands and you use Ghostscript, then maybe you might find this patch useful.
07:53:04 <zzo38> (The bug can be fixed without recompiling Ghostscript, since the patch is implemented purely in PostScript.)
07:55:33 <zzo38> If you know anyone who is interested in my software, see if they would like to see it and/or to help with it.
07:58:35 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75874&oldid=75870 * Amakukha * (+266)
08:02:15 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75875&oldid=67565 * Amakukha * (+4)
08:03:08 <esowiki> [[J-bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75876&oldid=67393 * Amakukha * (+23)
08:03:34 <esowiki> [[Vafix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75877&oldid=75875 * Amakukha * (+22)
08:04:03 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75878&oldid=75874 * Amakukha * (+22)
08:04:10 <esowiki> [[Jelly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75879&oldid=75814 * Amakukha * (+22)
08:05:13 <esowiki> [[Category:APL-like]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75880 * Amakukha * (+22) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]]"
08:05:37 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75881&oldid=75878 * Amakukha * (+23)
08:06:44 <esowiki> [[Inca]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75882&oldid=40996 * Amakukha * (+25)
08:07:31 <esowiki> [[Multi-Set Manipulator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75883&oldid=75711 * Amakukha * (+4)
08:08:41 <esowiki> [[ParScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75884&oldid=34958 * Amakukha * (+4) /* Description */
08:09:15 <esowiki> [[Arity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75885&oldid=71443 * Amakukha * (+4)
08:16:13 <esowiki> [[LYaPAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75886&oldid=25396 * Amakukha * (+26)
08:16:42 <esowiki> [[Unilinear]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75887&oldid=23222 * Amakukha * (+4) /* History */
08:18:12 <int-e> hmm, software infelicity of the day? mplayer has a -softvol option that causes volume is adjusted in software. but when playing multiple file, the volume is reset between files :-/
08:21:50 <zzo38> Do you have to specify the -softvol option for each file, then?
08:22:25 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75888&oldid=75745 * Amakukha * (+4) /* APL */
08:23:55 <int-e> zzo38: no it means I have to use -volume if I want to use -softvol and adjust the volume to something other than the default, rather than adjusting the volume on the fly using the / and * keys.
08:24:02 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75889&oldid=75881 * Amakukha * (+56)
08:24:56 <esowiki> [[Category:1962]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75890 * Amakukha * (+18) Created page with "[[Category:Years]]"
08:26:14 <zzo38> I should think that if you adjust the volume while it is playing, it ought to keep the setting when the next file is played, at least by default.
08:27:02 <int-e> yes, but it doesn't.
08:53:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bauripalash * New user account
09:03:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75891&oldid=75846 * Bauripalash * (+300) Added my introduction
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09:10:32 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=75892 * Bauripalash * (+144) Added first edits
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09:15:52 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75893&oldid=75892 * Bauripalash * (+4)
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09:24:25 <ondroed_> fungot do you have a stable irc access on your phone?
09:24:25 <fungot> ondroed_: that's already null terminated, isn't it? you can just try to keep it
09:24:41 <ondroed_> oops wrong nick
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09:27:21 <fake_arseniiv> I thing those awful disconnects of old should have been the work of the old router. I don't see any this time
09:28:28 <fake_arseniiv> so I'll be able to spam here while not home, finally
09:33:22 <fake_arseniiv> > exp (Complex 0 (2 * pi))
09:33:24 <lambdabot> error:
09:33:24 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: Complex :: Integer -> Double -> a
09:34:59 <fake_arseniiv> > exp (Complex 0.0 (2 * pi))
09:35:00 <lambdabot> error:
09:35:01 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: Complex :: Double -> Double -> a
09:35:19 <fake_arseniiv> ah, now I see
09:36:09 <fake_arseniiv> should have seen from the start, actually. No Num constraints etc.
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09:36:31 <esowiki> [[6-5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75894&oldid=75864 * Bangyen * (+1)
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10:29:48 <b_jonas> > exp (0.0 :+ (2 * pi))
10:29:50 <lambdabot> 1.0 :+ (-2.4492935982947064e-16)
10:39:46 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75895&oldid=75871 * A * (+757)
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10:45:38 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75896&oldid=75895 * A * (+604)
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10:49:05 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75897&oldid=75896 * A * (+539)
10:52:57 <esowiki> [[DDuuaall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75898&oldid=75897 * A * (+158) /* Special Arity Rules */
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11:32:22 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75899&oldid=75101 * A * (+69) /* Instruction list */
11:38:23 <arseniiv> int-e: shachaf: do SAT or SMT solvers usually have means to iterate all possible solutions, not just give a single model if one exists?
11:39:29 <arseniiv> hm wait lambdabot haven’t said I have messages :\
11:40:10 <arseniiv> @tell cpressey wow this sounds interesting! but I haven’t understood what it means yet
11:40:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:41:49 <int-e> arseniiv: the latter. one reason is that enumeration doesn't work well with restarts (which the solvers tend to do... a lot)
11:42:59 <arseniiv> int-e: thank you!
11:43:11 <int-e> arseniiv: but they often have an incremental mode, where you can alternate between checking satisfiability (with model) and adding new constraints. So if there are few models you can rule out the ones you've seen with an additional constraint and continue.
11:43:35 <int-e> For example, this works well for checking uniqueness of solutions of puzzles.
11:44:40 <arseniiv> int-e: is there a way to enumerate all possible moves for a given position in e. g. checkers or backgammon?
11:45:26 <arseniiv> maybe an advanced SMT solver language may express it directly?.. and you have a single solution which contains the list of moves
11:45:33 <int-e> nah
11:46:20 <arseniiv> so then my Prolog-esque (and totally unimplemented) thing may be a better solution as I feared
11:46:37 <int-e> Well, I say "nah" but really I just don't know of anything like this.
11:47:11 <int-e> It does sound more like Prolog. Answer set programming may be relevant, I never figured out what that is exactly.
11:47:53 <arseniiv> answer set programming, haven’t heard about that yet
12:15:32 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75900&oldid=75893 * Bauripalash * (+626) added infobox
12:18:41 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75901&oldid=75900 * Bauripalash * (-26) Fixed code examples
12:21:54 <esowiki> [[MewMew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75902&oldid=75901 * Bauripalash * (+84) Added Github Repo Link
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13:03:08 <shachaf> arseniiv: I think there are all sorts of tricks for model counting, but if you're just using a regular solver and not looking for a large number, you usually do the thing int-e said.
13:04:25 <shachaf> https://github.com/marijnheule/allsat is a modification of minisat that does it automatically.
13:04:52 <shachaf> (I also added this to my solver.)
13:06:39 <shachaf> I was considering extending the input format to let you mark which variables are important, so it would only negate those.
13:06:59 <shachaf> But so far I'm not using encodings that have this problem.
13:08:59 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75903&oldid=75899 * A * (-13) /* Instruction list */
13:09:49 <arseniiv> shachaf: interesting
13:14:55 <esowiki> [[DIVCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75904&oldid=75903 * A * (+52) /* Explanation */
13:16:44 <shachaf> Now I wonder how much disabling restarts is worth for model counting.
13:17:00 <shachaf> Probably not that much? Hmm.
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16:52:56 <arseniiv> a book has some strange vocabulary: (a module or an algebra) “reduces to zero”, “isomorphy”
16:55:03 <b_jonas> > exp (0.0 :+ (2 * pi)) -- arseniiv:
16:55:06 <lambdabot> 1.0 :+ (-2.4492935982947064e-16)
16:55:52 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks, though my mermory is short
16:56:34 <arseniiv> if I wrote in Haskell more regularly, I’d should known it by heart
16:57:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: in that case, try the documentation: https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.6.3/docs/html/libraries/base- https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch17.html#x25-21800017
16:58:19 <b_jonas> they're not perfect, but they forget less
16:58:30 <b_jonas> also, did you have a question about J and did you get an answer for it?
16:58:33 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thank you :′)
16:58:38 <b_jonas> or more like, do you still have a J question?
16:59:04 <b_jonas> I'll AFK for 90 minutes so I won't answer immediately, just wondering
16:59:05 <arseniiv> I usually search in there with hoogle anyway, I just wrote from the phone that time :D
16:59:27 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> also, did you have a question about J and did you get an answer for it? => hm I think no
17:00:14 <arseniiv> maybe I don’t remember what of my questions might have been related to J…(??)
17:04:39 <b_jonas> I'll check the logs, it was probably someone else then
17:31:52 <zzo38> I like that Heirloom-mailx allows specifying pipes in many cases where a filename is expected. Why don't many other programs do things like that?
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18:00:02 <t20kdc> zzo38: because they have forgotten their roots
18:00:30 <t20kdc> (or assume that /dev/stdin and /dev/stdout is available on the system and it's thus not-their-problem)
18:01:20 <t20kdc> to be honest I suspect it'd be more of a problem if shells were more configurable in regards to complex pipelines
18:01:26 <zzo38> t20kdc: For non-interactive software, using stdin/stdout works fine, but many programs have an interactive mode.
18:01:37 <zzo38> (Heirloom-mailx is interactive.)
18:01:53 <t20kdc> zzo38: then... if pipes are being specified, how?
18:02:58 <zzo38> In the case of Heirloom-mailx, when you tell it to save attachments, it will ask you for the filename for each one (with the default filename filled in, but it can be removed); if you write something starting with | then you can specify a pipe instead.
18:03:14 <zzo38> (For example, you can write |display to display a picture.)
18:03:20 <t20kdc> ooooh, I see
18:04:23 <t20kdc> that seems specific to interactive terminal applications, but when that is the case, that definitely sounds useful
18:04:48 <t20kdc> I was thinking you meant in terms of non-interactive applications, which definitely have a problem with complex pipeline routing
18:05:15 <t20kdc> specifically, the solution seems to be "more mkfifo"
18:05:38 <t20kdc> ...which is not very universally applicable
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19:08:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:1962]]": early esolangs are grouped into [[Category:Before 1993]]
19:08:48 <esowiki> [[APL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75905&oldid=75889 * Ais523 * (+7) cat
19:13:38 <arseniiv> how do you call a linear combination with zero weight sum?
19:14:04 <arseniiv> I think I heard “neutral combination” but I’m not sure at all
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20:39:49 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75906&oldid=30380 * Bangyen * (-1067)
20:40:59 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75907&oldid=75625 * Bangyen * (-1367) /* Polynomial */
20:42:00 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75908&oldid=75907 * Bangyen * (+27) /* PlusOrMinus */
20:43:48 <b_jonas> zzo38, t20kdc: my opinion is that most of the things that you want to do with pipes you can already do with shell piplines and the other shell feature (foo <(bar)), then you should probably use a regular file, and that people should trust that OSes handle temporary regular files efficiently these days.
20:44:40 <b_jonas> but on the other hand, for interactive programs like ed or vim, it probably does make sense to add commands to read/write from piped command lines, so that might apply in the case you mentioned originally
20:50:21 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75909&oldid=75908 * Bangyen * (+157)
21:09:36 <esowiki> [[Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75910&oldid=75906 * Bangyen * (+1747)
21:11:08 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75911&oldid=75850 * Bangyen * (+18) /* Implementations */
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21:34:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: For non-interactive programs, you are certainly correct; you can use the shell features.
21:35:56 <zzo38> Interactive programs that support specifying piped commands do include ed and vim, as well as Heirloom-mailx, and some programs I wrote myself (such as bystand, and the interactive mode of TeXnicard), but many newer programs unfortunately don't support such thing.
21:37:33 <b_jonas> such as most interactive editors
21:38:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, it can help for domain-specific programming languages too, TeX has such an extension these days
21:38:38 <b_jonas> even when they're not interactive
21:38:57 <b_jonas> general purpose programming languages of course already have such a feature, and I do use it often
21:39:41 <b_jonas> I even found out that Windows 7 uses a tiny pipe buffer by default, and if you want to send large amounts of data through a pipe with performance, you have to increase it with a system call
21:39:51 <zzo38> Yes, although TeX does have an interactive mode too. Ghostscript also provides the %pipe% device which is a nonstandard extension to PostScript, and Ghostscript also has an interactive mode (which is a standard feature of PostScript, actually).
21:39:53 <b_jonas> linux has changed to a larger default buffer a while ago now
21:40:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I mean for TeX the popen extension is useful even without the interactive mode
21:40:35 <zzo38> Yes, it is useful even without the interactive mode.
21:41:17 <b_jonas> I used popens to ffmpeg and to qhull at work
21:41:39 <b_jonas> also ffplay, ffprobe, and imagemagick
21:41:55 <b_jonas> probably more
21:42:05 <zzo38> Isn't ffplay part of ffmpeg?
21:42:07 <b_jonas> oh yeah, also a popen to gnuplot
21:42:16 <b_jonas> yes, ffmpeg and ffprobe are the two other programs in ffmpeg
21:42:24 <b_jonas> I popened all three, and ffmpeg both for reading and for writing
21:42:44 <zzo38> How do you specify a pipe in TeX?
21:43:12 <b_jonas> also gnuplot, I wrote a weird development visualization program where I draw an animation with gnuplot, but control playback and settings real time with keystrokes on a command-line driver program
21:43:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't remember
21:43:45 <b_jonas> it's some kind of extension, not in Knuth's master version
21:44:46 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so
21:48:24 <zzo38> Best would probably be an extension to the syntax for filenames, since then it is still really TeX; some other extensions aren't TeX
21:48:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's possible that I was wrong, and it can only run shell commands, rather than popen them, and the man page says it has to do with \write18
21:49:03 <b_jonas> but I haven't looked up in detail how that works
21:49:16 <b_jonas> it's probably in one of the documentations installed with TeXlive and typeset with tex
21:51:01 <zzo38> Yes, I think I read that too, but it isn't very good and it contradicts the specification of TeX. (Being able to use pipes would be more useful though, that only to run shell commands.)
21:52:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it contradicts the specs, as it's optional and connected to a \write handle that a format could open by default, so it's like modifying a format
21:52:53 <b_jonas> and it will never be the default because of security reasons
21:52:59 <zzo38> Well, the problem (at least last time I checked) is a bug that occurs when that feature is disabled.
21:53:06 <b_jonas> oh?
21:53:22 <zzo38> (If that bug didn't occur, then it would be OK, I think.)
21:53:52 <zzo38> I don't remember the details of that bug, but I think it has to do with testing EOF.
22:00:00 <zzo38> Another bug is that if \write18 is disabled, then it should act the same as \write19, but instead it writes an error message to the log file.
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22:56:51 <zzo38> I have a different idea how to do it, which would probably result in a more useful way anyways, which is that \write18 writes the text to the log file and also copies the text into an internal buffer. If you then try to open the file called ::pipe for reading or writing, then it executes the command stored in the internal buffer and allows reading/writing the pipe.
22:59:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could try to implement some of that as a patch
22:59:26 <b_jonas> TeXlive is open source
23:01:09 <zzo38> Yes, I could do.
23:03:14 <zzo38> (Other similar extensions would also be possible, such as ::sql to be able to deal with SQL databases.)
23:05:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you use \write as the interface, then pipes are probably universal enough, because anything external that you may want to access by just writing text into a pipe you want as an external program so you can use it for things other than TeX, including an SQL interface
23:05:14 <b_jonas> but if you implement extensions, they can use something other than a \write interface
23:10:53 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75912&oldid=75911 * Bangyen * (+62)
23:13:21 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75913&oldid=70266 * Bangyen * (+79)
23:13:32 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75914&oldid=75913 * Bangyen * (-2)
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23:18:48 <b_jonas> Question. What are the most popular video games where you play a member of a D&D-style small adventuring party, where other members of that party are played by the computer, and this happens in a symmetrical way, in that depending on your choices, you could play different characters in a similar adventuring groups, so at least two members are potentially PCs, and this is a primary mode, not something
23:18:54 <b_jonas> badly tacked on to a multiplayer game?
23:18:57 <b_jonas> This doesn't restrict the genre too much.
23:21:47 <zzo38> Yes, they can; they could also be new commands. However there is the possibility that you might not want to change other stuff since it would be incompatible with other implementations of TeX, since some file might expect the working certain ways. (What I proposed pretty much guarantees that everything else continues to work, even if the extension isn't disabled.
23:22:08 <zzo38> (The two problems with the existing \write18 is that it seems to be write-only, and furthermore even if that feature is disabled, it doesn't work properly.)
23:22:26 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you have examples of such game (even if they are not so popular or well known)?
23:27:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know any examples, or at least can't think of any
23:27:26 <b_jonas> but I don't play many such adventuring games
23:27:35 <b_jonas> not even ones where you control the whole party
23:52:15 <esowiki> [[Lightlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=75915&oldid=75914 * Bangyen * (+784) /* Examples */
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