←2020-07-19 2020-07-20 2020-07-21→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:21:33 <arseniiv> zzo38: saturation, intensity, hue as in CIELUV or CIEUVW (or alike), or like poor little HSL?
00:22:05 <arseniiv> sorry I initiated discussion and then I just log off
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00:28:44 <zzo38> arseniiv: I think is more closely related to HSL
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02:24:17 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76052&oldid=76036 * DanielCristofani * (+330) /* Examples */
02:30:08 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76053&oldid=76029 * Caenbe * (+35) Added cat
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05:06:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76054&oldid=74264 * Truttle1 * (+606) Added Subleq
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09:32:56 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76055&oldid=76052 * DanielCristofani * (+63)
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12:48:53 <Heavpoot> hi
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13:26:32 <moony> Heavpoot: Hello
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15:32:39 <esowiki> [[Rui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76056&oldid=76055 * Sinthorion * (+1470) Strict Rui
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18:02:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Duckologist * New user account
18:09:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76057&oldid=76048 * Duckologist * (+219) Introduced myself
18:10:52 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76058&oldid=65190 * Duckologist * (+0) Fixed misspelling ("commamd" > "command")
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18:31:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76059&oldid=65292 * Duckologist * (+375) /* "Stack-based" but uses variables? */ new section
18:32:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76060&oldid=76059 * Duckologist * (+92) Add "~~~~"
19:05:50 <zzo38> I could write some man pages for TeXnicard, although the distributor will have to edit some of them when making the package. Probably the man pages would be texnicard(1), texnicardpm(1), texnicardvc(1), and sepout(5), and the first three would mention what directory to find the other documentation files, as well as other files (such as system.ps and newdb.sql, both of which are needed at runtime).
19:06:44 <zzo38> How much is done with other programs, where the distributors will need to edit the man pages in this way?
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19:14:03 <t20kdc> zzo38: I recall that Miredo uses macroified manpages (as so: https://github.com/fgp/miredo/blob/1.2-patches/doc/miredo-server.8-in#L81 )
19:15:50 <zzo38> O, yes, troff macros would work, I suppose. Although, it looks like that isn't using troff macros; it is something else, it look like
19:26:07 <imode> managed to finish the `load` instruction for RAM. performs surprisingly quick.
19:26:27 <esowiki> [[256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76061&oldid=76058 * Duckologist * (+1) Fix typo ("lenth" > "length")
19:28:35 <imode> https://hastebin.com/axerexubam.txt
19:31:50 <imode> performance isn't great but I think I can just expose some builtins to seek to a particular pattern left or right.
19:32:09 <imode> as opposed to having to move through each and every data bit.
19:47:29 <int-e> Oh btw, I complained about github using "Cancel" in a confusing way a while back. I've run into this again and this time I understand my thought process. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cancel-cancel.png ... I'm trying to cancel something, that's the last thing I clicked. It doesn't really matter what the text inside the popup says.
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20:04:08 <esowiki> [[Palace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76062&oldid=76038 * Hakerh400 * (+1) /* Predecesor */ typo
20:04:30 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76063 * Caenbe * (+821) Created page with "I think of esolang ideas as hobbies/mathematical exercises. The only language I've posted to the wiki is [[Affine Mess]], but there may be more coming. I'm currently working o..."
20:06:27 <b_jonas> int-e: does it also have "Would you like to consider such-and-such process? Yes, No, Cancel"
20:07:52 <int-e> I have a preference for [Yes] [Ok] [Continue].
20:08:29 <int-e> But no, I don't think it has that kind of confusing ternary logic.
20:08:38 <fizzie> Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail.
20:08:46 <int-e> TRUE|FALSE|FILE_NOT_FOUND
20:09:05 <myname> ah yes, good old dailywtf
20:09:12 <int-e> fizzie: that's an actual DOS prompt, or close enough to fool me
20:09:16 <myname> does that still exist?
20:10:04 <int-e> myname: of course?
20:10:24 <int-e> (I know, nothing is certain on the WWW)
20:10:53 <int-e> It got boring after a while though.
20:11:14 <myname> i remember the quality (and espacially the quantity) varying widely between entries
20:11:28 <zzo38> DOS is still sometimes used, such as with DOSBOX. Some people still write DOS programs.
20:11:40 <int-e> myname: That goes with the territory.
20:11:43 <fizzie> int-e: I looked around, and while I really feel like "Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail" did exist, the Internet suggests it was just "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" and then in DOS 3.3 changed to "Abort, Retry, Fail?".
20:11:58 <int-e> myname: It's a bit like writing comedy but they don't discard the 95% that are not funny enough.
20:12:31 <myname> i still remember my favourite comments about the doRunRun()
20:12:45 <zzo38> fizzie: With my own experience of DOS, that is what seems to be the case, and not "Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail".
20:12:45 <int-e> fizzie: Having both Abort and Fail is pretty awful.
20:13:15 <zzo38> (Although it might depend on what the operation is.)
20:13:37 <myname> https://thedailywtf.com/articles/comments/A-Method-by-Any-Other-Name there it is
20:13:57 <myname> "You met it on a Monday and your heart stood still. The doRunRunRun(), the doRunRun()."
20:13:59 <int-e> fizzie: I'm actually satisfied by the fact that all four verbs featured at some point in time.
20:14:50 <zzo38> Now I added this file for the distributor to set the directory names to be listed in the man page: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/texnicard.ui/artifact/bfa6bfece7ddb6fd
20:15:07 <fizzie> Visual Basic famously had the 'On Error Resume Next' directive, for when you didn't want to worry about error handling.
20:15:30 <myname> loved that
20:15:38 <fizzie> Well, s/had/has/, it's not like it's gone anywhere.
20:15:48 <fizzie> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/visual-basic/language-reference/statements/on-error-statement "Specifies that when a run-time error occurs, control goes to the statement immediately following the statement where the error occurred, and execution continues from that point."
20:16:45 <int-e> myname: is that a setup for a Duran Duran joke
20:16:46 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, and in the DOS BASIC also.
20:17:22 <myname> int-e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-qqi7-Q19k
20:23:22 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76064&oldid=76063 * Caenbe * (+0) Removed ambiguity
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20:41:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76065&oldid=76060 * Caenbe * (+346)
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20:47:02 <esowiki> [[Transfinity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=76066 * Hakerh400 * (+4585) +[[Transfinity]]
20:47:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76067&oldid=76039 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Transfinity]]
20:47:13 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76068&oldid=76040 * Hakerh400 * (+18) +[[Transfinity]]
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21:05:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, and I might add, since visual basic has stupid conditions that you can only recognize by catching an error, even such as looking up an object by name in some collections of objects, you often want to ignore errors for just one line, in which case On Error Resume Next is simpler. I still tend to use On Error Goto <named label>, because it's cleaner, and more versions of visual basic support
21:05:38 <b_jonas> it.
21:11:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76069&oldid=76065 * Duckologist * (+160) /* -- (and ++) is used in code samples but not mention in specs? */ new section
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21:57:55 <esowiki> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76070&oldid=76061 * IFcoltransG * (+84) /* Computational class */ Weakened claim about Turing completeness
22:07:13 <esowiki> [[Unicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76071&oldid=69950 * IFcoltransG * (+130) A bit more detail
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22:44:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=76072&oldid=76069 * Caenbe * (+221)
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23:01:23 <ais523> <int-e> Oh btw, I complained about github using "Cancel" in a confusing way a while back. ← a reminder that under the modern UI principle where one button states the action you're trying to perform and the other states "Cancel", /both/ buttons should have been marked "Cancel"
23:01:51 <b_jonas> ais523: lol
23:02:08 <b_jonas> so it should be "Cancel, Cancel"? which one should be on the left?
23:02:34 <b_jonas> and which one should be the default for pressing enter, the other presumably getting activated from pressing escape or closing the window?
23:04:53 <zzo38> I should think, the one to perform the action is done if you push enter, and escape will make it to not do, can be the way to do.
23:05:07 <zzo38> (Although maybe it should be yes/no)
23:05:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but how about in the case of this "Cancel, Cancel" dialog?
23:07:34 <b_jonas> ais523: also, is that only when you cancel an action planned in the future where the action hasn't started and the UI is waiting in a dialog to give input for the action, or also when the action is already in progress and the user interrupted it and wants to abandon it mid-run?
23:10:54 <ais523> b_jonas: the button to accept the cancel is on the right, to cancel the cancel is on the left
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23:11:08 <ais523> Return should accept the cancel, Esc should cancel the cancel
23:11:32 <ais523> also I think the latter of your two cases is more important, in the former then cancelling the action normally shouldn't require a confirmation
23:11:47 <ais523> unless it involves other people, in which case better wording would be, e.g., "are you sure you want to delete this appointment?"
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23:12:35 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, though in windows, cancelling an installer before it starts making changes usually still asks for confirmation, even if it's effectively required because it told you it can't install something due to lack of a dependency
23:13:06 <ais523> this is mostly just the installer manufacturers being self-important, isn't it?
23:13:15 <b_jonas> a cancel dialog can make sense for cases like that when you've made lots of tricky data entry in the dialog for the action that you might not want to have to repeat
23:13:22 <ais523> and the installers taking ages to load
23:13:23 <b_jonas> yes, probably
23:13:38 <b_jonas> they used to, these days they don't take that much time to load (on a modern machine)
23:13:41 <ais523> really, though, on a well-designed OS, the installer should require very little configuration or user intervention
23:15:06 <zzo38> The user may wish to customize the installation though
23:15:29 <b_jonas> ... I'd prefer them to give more choices to me. there are installers that insist on changing system-global settings or user-global settings that don't need to be changed to use the program, and installers that insist on installing system-globally if your user is in the administrator group that can gain privilages to do that, even though the installer can install the program user-locally if you run it
23:15:35 <b_jonas> with a non-administrator user
23:15:43 <ais523> which OS is this on?
23:15:46 <b_jonas> windows 10
23:15:56 <b_jonas> and not all installers are like that, some are saner
23:16:04 <ais523> for NetHack4 I made the Windows installer system-global only, because the Windows Installer support for system-global versus user-global installation is actually broken
23:16:17 <ais523> it conditionally replaces some directories on the install path but not all of them
23:16:55 <ais523> there are other breakages, e.g. the intended use involves linking Start menu entries to registry entries for no obvious reason
23:17:19 <b_jonas> admittedly many installers on windows are much better
23:17:26 <ais523> NH4's installer hits a large number of validation failures if run through the official validator for installers, they're all intentional and all working around misfeatures
23:18:01 <b_jonas> I can install git for windows, which I install not really for git but for the usable MSYS installation and lots of simple MSYS programs bundled with it, and I can install that without changing anything global
23:18:09 <b_jonas> and there are other nice installers like that
23:19:30 <zzo38> Can it be downloaded without the installer?
23:19:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, as a self-extracting zip file that I can extract with 7zip
23:20:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I extract it, and then it has a post-install batch file that it says you have to run once to run git, but IIRC you don't need it to run MSYS
23:21:04 <b_jonas> this is how I install MSYS, with its putty-based mintty terminal, vim, and command-line utilities like find and grep, on windows machines these days
23:21:48 <b_jonas> it even installs a perl interpreter, though that one is one built for an MSYS target, which is not as good as one built for a windows target (in which windows support still sucks, mind you). this still applies to some of the other MSYS programs, but those are still usable.
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23:23:54 <zzo38> If you are on Windows 10 then you might want to install the program in WSL, perhaps, instead of MSYS
23:23:56 <b_jonas> I also install 7zip; that one does really need to access the registry, because I want the explorer plugin. If you only want the command-line client, you can just copy it; if you only want the 7z GUI program, I don't know if you need to install.
23:24:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: I haven't really researched WSL, but I don't think that's what I want
23:25:32 <b_jonas> I don't want a linux runtime on windows, I want utilities like grep and vim on windows, programs that make sense on either system, but I want a version that's close to something built to native windows, they just don't happen to have a native port close than that.
23:25:33 <zzo38> Certainly some programs you may want to be in Windows, although sometimes WSL will work, and sometimes you might want both, I suppose. But if the program is a Linux program and you are installing it on WSL, then I don't know if it has provisions for installing stuff into the start menu
23:26:49 <b_jonas> There are also other programs that I could probably use without at least a user-global installation on windows 10, but haven't yet figured out how to do it.
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23:29:39 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm asking about the difference between the two cases mostly because in the first case the labels would still be the same when the GUI language is different, whereas in the latter case they might differ
23:31:45 <ais523> ah, some languages have different words in common usage for "unschedule" versus "curtail"?
23:32:02 <ais523> I guess that's not surprising, there are unambiguous words for that in English, they just aren't used very often
23:33:37 <b_jonas> ais523: it depends, "interrupt" would sort of work for the latter in English, only that doesn't clearly say that you won't finish the work, you might continue it after an interruption; "abandon" or "exit" or "I changed my mind" might work in both cases
23:34:08 <b_jonas> I don't think there are unambiguous words for them in Hungarian either, but your preferred word might change
23:34:28 <b_jonas> because cancel buttons normally say "Mégse", which corresponds better to the first case
23:34:58 <ais523> "curtail" is almost unambiguous (in theory the verb could refer to scheduling the cancellation of an ongoing process at some future time, but that's unlikely to be what the user wants)
23:35:07 <ais523> but it's rarely used
23:35:57 <b_jonas> I guess there's also "give up"
23:36:18 <b_jonas> but only that, the formal equivalent "forfeit" wouldn't work
23:36:29 <ais523> now I'm amazed that "GO AWAY" isn't an INTERCAL command
23:36:44 <b_jonas> oh yeah, "leave"
23:37:05 <ais523> I guess it would jump to a random (numbered?) line and start executing from there? seems fairly easy to implement, albeit even less useful than most features in INTERCAL
23:37:44 <fizzie> I think almost all Finnish cancel buttons say "peruuta", which is the imperative mood of the verb "peruuttaa", which has a couple of context-sensitive uses (of a vehicle, to back up; of a marriage, to annul; and so on), even when better alternatives would exist.
23:38:08 <b_jonas> hmm, "annul"
23:38:27 <ais523> and I think INTERCAL is better off having commands that are quirky but usable, rather than entirely useless
23:38:38 <fizzie> (I'd like to see "dissolve" in a GUI as well.)
23:38:47 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it is probably correct
23:38:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm, when would you use that?
23:39:55 <b_jonas> "Abandon" would probably have worked on most cancel buttons in English, but it's probably too late to change that now
23:40:15 <fizzie> Maybe when you've made some sort of a grouping, and decide to remove it.
23:40:26 <ais523> b_jonas: it's still ambiguous in the cancel-a-cancel case
23:40:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes
23:40:55 <ais523> for what it's worth, "discard" has seen a recent surge of usage for the "accept a cancel" case
23:41:18 <b_jonas> hmm
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23:45:20 <b_jonas> by the way, another GUI confirmation dialog box that I dislike is in VBA, when you want to delete a module from the project. it asks something to the effect of "Would you like to export this module before deleting it?" and only has Yes and No as buttons. If it had a Cancel button to make it not delete the module, it would be better, but since it only has Yes and No, as a user you can think it's asking
23:45:26 <b_jonas> to confirm deleting the module and give the opposite answer.
23:47:07 <b_jonas> but that's a small complaint. the positive side is that you can script the VBA editor itself with the same VBA and just type something like VBE.Module("module name here").Remove into the Immediate window to delete a module without a confirmation prompt.
23:47:57 <fizzie> Will it delete the module for both yes and no?
23:48:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but it won't delete it if you cancel the save dialog
23:49:18 <b_jonas> this is useful because importing a VBA module from a file (after deleting its previous version) is a reasonable way to do a string eval after running an external program to write you VBA code, and you may want that because VBA is not a very good language, so you may want to do computations in a separate program, though it seems you can also just mostly avoid VBA entirely and use the COM interface of the
23:49:24 <b_jonas> program that you're macroing directly from a program in some other language
23:50:33 <b_jonas> with the possible exception that you may need to write at least a VBA stub for a custom command that you want to assign to a menu entry or toolbar button or keyboard shortcut in the program that you're macroing, but there's probably a way to do even that without VBA, I just don't know it
23:51:33 <b_jonas> plus of course in programs that have a macro recorder (the one that I'm macroing doesn't), that usually emits the syntax of only one macro language, with the notable exception of Excel
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23:53:32 <b_jonas> hmm, is there a version of Word after Word 6 that still has WordBasic but also has a COM interface? or maybe a version of CorelDraw or WordPerfect that has both CorelBasic and a COM interface? or a version of LibreOffice for windows with a COM interface?
23:54:10 <b_jonas> the latter might be the most likely, since I think you can't use COM interface on a non-windows platform
23:54:39 <b_jonas> or at least I think you can't use it on Linux, I don't know about windows
23:55:29 <b_jonas> there's a port of Excel 5, the program that introduced VBA, onto Mac OS classic, maybe that has VBA support
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23:58:37 <b_jonas> (and yes, Wine is a windows platform, just as Cygwin is a unix platform)
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23:59:04 <zzo38> There is XPCOM, but I don't know if they use it
23:59:54 <b_jonas> (and DOS4GW is a ... dunno)
←2020-07-19 2020-07-20 2020-07-21→ ↑2020 ↑all