> 1598659287 461272 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77019&oldid=77018 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (-138) 10 > 1598659316 686039 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:1CP=1ICL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77020 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+108) 10Created page with "dont be soundofspouting ~~~~" < 1598659629 718795 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598660200 695187 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139340-aztw33-2-0-cust225.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1598664765 162683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:1CP=1ICL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77021&oldid=77020 5* 03SoundOfScripting 5* (+124) 10* do > 1598665316 743428 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77022&oldid=77019 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+150) 10 > 1598665382 813626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77023&oldid=77022 5* 03Heavpoot 5* (+3) 10 < 1598667831 577538 :Heavpoot!5284d81e@82-132-216-30.dab.02.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598668811 90370 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1598668935 303965 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generic data structures in Zig are just compile-time functions, and I think my brain broke < 1598669900 286120 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598671112 738512 :kkd!~memxor@unaffiliated/kartikeya JOIN :#esoteric < 1598672325 457606 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598672613 501308 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1598675769 378385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: whoa, what's going on in SATland? < 1598675839 312046 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: huh? < 1598675847 52297 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember what I last said about my solver. I added (very simple) clause deletion, and Luby restarts, and it actually became reasonably fast on some inputs. < 1598675886 992794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds like your solver is way fancier and also world-famous now. < 1598675943 407747 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not famous at all, it's good enough to be practically useful but it's not state of the art stuff < 1598675967 699105 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a somewhat well known rust person started using it (for some not (yet?) public project) < 1598676005 555866 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that person seems to have quite a few followers on github, so now the traffic on my project suddenly increased < 1598676129 166419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1598676252 835799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get back to working on it. < 1598676263 142150 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I... < 1598676275 414563 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I want to rewrite half of it... again < 1598676277 830198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got more fun when I stopped using random instances and started using real instances. < 1598676286 708806 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598676291 684256 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should pick a good representative set of instances to be testing on. < 1598676337 396470 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah first that makes it more fun.... but then you realize you need a good way to benchmark stuff and that's another rabbit hole < 1598676354 605261 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, definitely trickier than I thought. < 1598676368 293494 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1598676368 876935 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1598676560 151647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's it being used for? < 1598676604 695521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is the project unknown? < 1598676605 779925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether I should improve my SAT solver or try figuring out how SMT solvers work. < 1598676777 509927 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :unknown, but he commented on an open issue related to timeouts and mentioned that he added cancellation from another thread and asked whether I'd be interested in merging something like that < 1598676814 705679 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :where he mentioned that he's using it in an interactive setting... and IIRC he recently started working on games, so that'd be my guess < 1598676821 390341 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, the Io person. < 1598676836 986897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My friend was using a SAT solver to design levels in a puzzle game. < 1598676844 420181 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Io? < 1598676857 245628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://canonical.org/~kragen/raph-io.html < 1598676966 800894 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: For my own solver, instead of a timeout, I was thinking of adding a more iterator-like API for the solver loop. < 1598677002 261358 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess for a SAT solver it's pretty simple, if it looks like a classic CDCL solver. < 1598677069 166787 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I also thought about that, (for the same reason, it's somewhat natural given the CDCL loop), but I do want to offer convenience APIs for a) callback based termination to match the IPASIR api and b) cancellation from a different thread using an atomic bool as flag and c) timeouts without requiring a second thread < 1598677110 72892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The loop looks like while (1) { unit_propagation(); if (conflict) { if (level == 0) return false; backtrack(); } else { if (all_assigned) return true; guess(); } }, right? < 1598677127 131088 :Arcorann__!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598677129 681471 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where most time is spent in unit propagation. < 1598677145 805346 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, makes sense that you've had the same thought. < 1598677169 194628 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What puzzle game levels are designing by SAT solver? < 1598677170 801079 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are also restarts but roughly like that < 1598677171 176850 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convenience APIs seem good to provide, but as the core API I think something like this is much nicer. < 1598677192 783487 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was already getting into more detail than I meant to. < 1598677232 820937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really I should have said while (1) { /* something that takes a relatively long time */ }. I was just trying to remember how it worked. < 1598677265 907222 :glowcoil_!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fyvfdbrycpraeptr JOIN :#esoteric < 1598677272 345968 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like while (1) { /* something that takes a short amount of time, but you need to do it many, many, many times */ } < 1598677273 348088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's still a secret game unfortunately. < 1598677294 545955 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhcjquwfwkpxzkce QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598677294 697379 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598677294 945871 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598677295 48885 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598677295 48941 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598677295 213674 :glowcoil_!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fyvfdbrycpraeptr NICK :glowcoil < 1598677302 731055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the thing I was wondering was whether having an API boundary there would have a performance impact. < 1598677311 472072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I doubt it. < 1598677317 775607 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1598677355 443020 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so returning after each conflict should be perfectly safe (in my solver and IIRC many others)finding a conflict is a sub-loop) < 1598677361 498745 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1598677385 534997 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :returning each time after running unit propagation to completion, I'm not quite sure < 1598677413 820722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, unit propagation + handling the conflict sort of goes together. < 1598677439 555746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess it doesn't have to, you can just save your state. < 1598677472 237605 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but I meant if you need multiple guesses to find a conflict, returning inbetween might not be a good idea performance wise < 1598677497 756792 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if returning implies you're going to check termination criteria and potentially other stuff that could slow down things) < 1598677529 700364 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't tested that at all, I just know you're pretty safe doing that after a conflict given all the other stuff that happens anyway for a conflict < 1598677612 366351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, I just looked up IPASIR, I didn't know about this at all. < 1598677685 691789 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always end up needing functionallity outside of that API, sometimes supported by solver specific APIs... but often enough not even that, even though it wouldn't be too hard to add it < 1598677717 587770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's too bad it's callback-based. Callback APIs aren't fun when you can avoid them. < 1598677729 339822 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you should certainly be able to, for something like this. < 1598677748 513488 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's inteded to be easy to add to existing solvers, and callbacks make that easier < 1598677764 248682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1598677786 862050 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a lot of uses you don't even need any of the callback APIs though < 1598677821 975289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just being able to add new clauses without deleting the clause database is presumably most of the incrementality people need. < 1598677839 81806 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that and solving under assumptions < 1598677874 800199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, how do assumptions work? I guess that just means adding things to the trail? < 1598677907 258182 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's exactly just that, you fix a prefix on the trail and if you'd backtrack beyond that you return unsat (under assumptions) < 1598677933 332624 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1598677940 415174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was briefly wondering whether you'd learn wrong clauses that way but of course you wouldn't. < 1598677971 116730 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the conflict analysis you do to detect that you'd backtrack beyond that you also get a subset of assumptions causing the conflict for free (which is also part of the IPASIR api) < 1598678007 547839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's nice. > 1598678027 570343 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Challenger514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77024&oldid=76991 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+107) 10 > 1598678062 740470 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Challenger514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77025&oldid=76950 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+16) 10 < 1598678090 358706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if SMT solvers need more of an API than this? < 1598678112 181520 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends AFAIK < 1598678138 211368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not knowing much about what is SMT solvers, I don't know really > 1598678150 318692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aubergine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77026&oldid=74883 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+95) 10 < 1598678180 52985 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need more than that for CDCL(T) or for bitblasting AFAICT < 1598678218 239942 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you want to do eager theory propagation (not sure if that's an established term) you need a way to hook into unit propagation < 1598678233 755554 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how much that is done or if it is important at all < 1598678296 42110 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a few minutes ago I found and corrected a bug in TeXnicard involving division by zero when the total available vertical space is rigid, resulting in alternating lines of text being displayed and hidden. < 1598679575 776820 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598679882 783923 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1598680630 410110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like SAT solvers? < 1598680871 107986 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I do not know much about SAT solvers. < 1598680887 348335 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If I knew, maybe I would be able to answer your other questions too, but I don't know.) < 1598680897 275694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like graph coloring solvers? < 1598680936 616239 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are more logic solver systems than one might expect and they are competing against themselves quite regularly < 1598681113 754007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I should actually learn about integer programming solvers. I hear they're pretty good.. < 1598681116 727754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/.$// < 1598681138 972799 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I don't even really know about linear programming. < 1598681159 492769 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend of mine writes a mip solver in his spare time to optimize his factorio world < 1598681185 423941 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear programming is not that hard, really < 1598681270 815770 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: as you already know how SAT solvers work, learning about MIP will make you annoyed that SAT solvers are bad at what MIP solvers are good at and that MIP solvers are bad at what SAT solvers are good at (well, at least it does that for me) < 1598681275 161966 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer programms make it quite a bit harder < 1598681312 599093 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently it's difficult enough to combine them in a way that gets the advantages of both < 1598681327 141060 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc linear programms are in P < 1598681335 36697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: That was my impression. Well, I really only know one direction, in seeing some problems that MIP solvers are good at and SAT solvers are bad at. < 1598681345 176095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I heard it went both ways. < 1598681372 167289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot more industrial use of MIP, I think? < 1598681398 833659 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think so < 1598681413 102882 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for problems where SAT or SMT solvers would be better < 1598681430 808061 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not that surprising, SAT solvers only decide, MIP solvers optimize < 1598681470 631826 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: that's not really a distinction that matters though, if you can do one you can do the other, in theory as well as in practice < 1598681491 174526 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it might be that it works in theory but is too slow in practice, but with incremental SAT solvers optimizing is also fast in practice < 1598681493 674756 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: well, at additional cost, yeah < 1598681554 600794 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to state your problem in such a way that you can make good guesses about what change in the corresponding sat problem < 1598681598 415138 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not having seen graph coloring solvers, I don't really know. But at least I can understand a bit of what is meant, I suppose. How difficult are they to solve, though? < 1598681629 571056 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :graph coloring is NP complete < 1598681639 901107 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess it's about as hard as SAT solvers < 1598681694 319195 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1598681741 379443 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, a lot more work has been put into sat sovlers, I think, and polynomial time is... well theoretically not that bad but in practice it can get pretty bad < 1598681851 734247 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, depending on the algorithm and how much data, it can be, considering, there are many kind of polynomials, some of which are big. < 1598681853 170955 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, we had a lecture on algorithms to solve euclidean tsp that aren't really worth attempting with real data sets, if you could just brute-force < 1598682087 454880 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1598684501 453630 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:b531:aeb2:5015:9484 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598684652 975485 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just now I found the new documentation about the schema table for SQLite, and about the new name "sqlite_schema" instead of "sqlite_master". I knew about this before from the Fossil timeline. I am glad that "For historical reasons, callbacks from the sqlite3_set_authorizer() interface always refer to the schema table using names (1) or (3)" because that is the part that I was concerned about. < 1598684669 365907 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, good, now my concern has been considered, so it is OK now. < 1598685413 928297 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should I choose which learnt clauses to delete? < 1598685419 49926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I just delete the longest ones. < 1598685431 402533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how should I store watch lists? < 1598686361 436635 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I don't know. Hopefully, we can learn which way is good. < 1598687397 326473 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the classic approach (used by minisat and probably solvers before it) uses clause activities, glucose added LBDs (aka as clause glues or glue levels) as a metric for that, chanseok oh's solvers added a strategy that partitions learned clauses into 3 tiers and uses activities and LBDs and whether they've been part of a conflict recently (IIRC it's been a time) and that's the state of the < 1598687399 553602 :jix!~jix@static.71.5.69.159.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :art unless something changed in the past 1.5 years < 1598688626 412529 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598688743 909663 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1598690306 438606 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77027&oldid=77004 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-46) 10I am going to talk about this later. > 1598690376 967186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77028&oldid=77027 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-83) 10And this too. < 1598692243 99565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-41.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1598692345 507290 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598692705 157792 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1598693407 747513 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77029&oldid=77028 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+490) 10Introducing IO! < 1598694753 969372 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfvtdkdugtqnlyts JOIN :#esoteric < 1598696120 540612 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598696168 583171 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit: what does "non-monadic" mean in that context? < 1598696792 172172 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598696819 403503 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598697109 359672 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth just how many ways can you spell fairy in English? "fairy, fairie, faerie, færie, faery, fae, fey, fay"; plus any of those suffixed with " folk" and "fair folk" apparently < 1598697129 140381 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're worse than djinns > 1598697536 942032 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0711001000010011011001014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77030&oldid=74384 5* 03Stasoid 5* (+4) 10 > 1598699943 996694 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77031&oldid=77029 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+720) 10Introducing DATA TYPES! < 1598702537 805394 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598702981 956267 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursaga < 1598702997 867861 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1598703863 784535 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598704328 599900 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dfvtdkdugtqnlyts QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1598705479 447552 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598705980 312483 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1598706009 747137 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric > 1598706619 124850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77032&oldid=77031 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+731) 10Introducing CONTROL FLOW! > 1598706692 873040 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77033&oldid=77032 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Emphasizing 'if'. > 1598706846 281390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77034&oldid=77033 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+95) 10Introducing I! < 1598707003 886350 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598709571 874761 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric > 1598711078 995013 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77035&oldid=76960 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+76) 10 > 1598711375 545482 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77036&oldid=76961 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+101) 10 < 1598713300 988868 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598713483 890112 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598714537 759570 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/obscenery/ < 1598714539 196750 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/obscenery/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale > 1598714570 782931 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77037&oldid=77034 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+666) 10Introducing PROGRAMS! > 1598714631 281070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Modulous14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77038&oldid=76980 5* 03Abyxlrz 5* (+150) 10 > 1598715121 687435 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77039&oldid=77037 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+181) 10Introducing EXTERNAL RESOURCES! < 1598715965 517742 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598716247 154741 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Connection closed > 1598716378 331197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77040&oldid=77039 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+23) 10Introducing REDIRECTS! > 1598716404 614165 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77041&oldid=77040 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-23) 10Wait what? > 1598716563 487850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Commata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77042 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+17) 10Redirection fora golfing language. > 1598716659 876798 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77043&oldid=77041 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Capitalization: The beginnings > 1598716705 817362 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77044&oldid=77043 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+4) 10Link to the esolang page > 1598716860 4470 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77045&oldid=77044 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+133) 10A bit more clarification. < 1598716866 985034 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1598716887 408645 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric > 1598716888 681269 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77046&oldid=77045 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+9) 10Grammar Fix > 1598717000 410008 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77047&oldid=77046 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+45) 10Space is a nop! > 1598717085 670049 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77048&oldid=77047 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Actually, these 'nops' do have a purpose. < 1598717165 125778 :Arcorann__!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1598717435 896631 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77049&oldid=77008 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+10) 10,,, Joins the battle! > 1598717918 2278 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77050&oldid=77048 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+57) 10Bit more ClaRiFiCaTion. > 1598717980 531021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77051&oldid=77050 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-83) 10AHH MY FOCUS > 1598718096 479396 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77052&oldid=77051 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+11) 10ClArIfIcAtIoN > 1598718135 673378 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77053&oldid=77052 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10... > 1598718180 563764 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07,,,14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77054&oldid=77053 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10.:.:. < 1598719593 721222 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1598719659 775540 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1598719763 746064 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1598721027 178653 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.39.129.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1598721778 250786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1598724163 908951 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1598724361 314206 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1598724698 964321 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598725041 931524 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1598725285 891830 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1598725939 616455 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@gateway/tor-sasl/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: quit < 1598726502 119614 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1598726700 394839 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77055&oldid=76971 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+143) 10Something more... > 1598726994 699189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07QuineLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77056&oldid=69523 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+8) 10When creating articles, it is good to write them in 3rd-person perspective. :) > 1598727272 760462 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77057&oldid=77055 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-175) 10I guess this sentence is not needed. > 1598727345 289371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77058&oldid=77023 5* 03Osmarks 5* (+199) 10 > 1598727510 21954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77059&oldid=77057 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+152) 10A bit more stuff about esolangs. > 1598727550 176195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77060&oldid=77059 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-10) 10Aw man > 1598727622 870203 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071CP=1ICL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77061&oldid=77058 5* 03Osmarks 5* (+79) 10 > 1598727705 394750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77062&oldid=77060 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+48) 10More... MORE! > 1598727757 646605 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:SunnyMoon14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77063&oldid=77062 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+1) 10OH NOES < 1598728065 523852 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1598728460 296828 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :another homepage where if the browser window isn't very wide, then essential links are hidden. I was searching for how to log in. > 1598728640 962284 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77064&oldid=77035 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+30) 10,,, < 1598729074 149465 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.39.129.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1598729076 451750 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Non-monadic in the sense that you don't use an explicit structure like the monad from Haskell? < 1598729201 165829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: ok, though I don't understand how that would apply to a prime sieve < 1598729343 220737 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's surprising that this is possible: https://tomas.rokicki.com/logic_puzzle.html < 1598729346 461654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can use any number of 'and' and 'or' gates, with any number of inputs each, but only two 'not' gates. You must build a circuit that computes for inputs A, B, and C, the three separate values not A, not B, and not C." < 1598729423 200761 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, interesting < 1598729429 453952 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will think about that < 1598729488 194224 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible? i would assume it works with stuff similar two the variable switch without a temporary one < 1598729552 562092 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible. < 1598729563 837428 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm < 1598729594 282604 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a computer-found solution but I'm not sure I understand how it works entirely. < 1598729606 747858 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: let me think about that one < 1598729726 260014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's some easy description of functions that you can build from just & and | gates, IIRC think a function can be built that way iff it is monotonous, gives 0 for all-0 input, and gives 1 for all-1 input. < 1598729752 416418 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right < 1598729856 743500 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: My language is eager. So the 'standard' Haskell short definition of a prime sieve doesn't work. < 1598729899 947784 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are ways to deal with that. I listed two manners which mimic lazy lists. > 1598729940 590282 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77065&oldid=74234 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+663) 10/* Subcategories for the Non-Textual category. */ new section < 1598730112 714464 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The manner which I didn't list would be to use monads to model lazy behavior in an eager language. < 1598730125 729821 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to avoid that. < 1598730432 131380 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is your computer-found solution a boolean function or a circuit? < 1598730747 114872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1598730808 917247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would not specifically think of monads to avoid lazyness, just of a list-like iterator interface < 1598730839 950812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly the caching style a lazy list, since that's what you need for a prime sieve < 1598731060 446135 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but iterators fit into monads too. If you want it. < 1598731112 582941 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have any other possible solutions I would be very interested. < 1598731212 739661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but just the monad interface isn't really enough here < 1598731250 696314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even see why it would really help much < 1598731294 423202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the (>>=) method for lists is mapConcat, but you just need a filter, which is a special case of that, plus you need to iterate on the list of divisors and stop when they grow too large, for which monads don't really help < 1598731370 287068 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like we have tangent thoughts on this. > 1598731491 765859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77066&oldid=38410 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+315) 10/* Is it possible to add "psuedo-truth-machines"? */ new section < 1598731654 81530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, ideally I should try to read your code and write the sieve with lazy lists like I thought, to make this clearer, but right now I'm busy with some stupid webpage < 1598731705 774944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a webpage where I ordered something and want to order more, but I'm trying to write a userstyle to make the important control link visible, it's currently hidden by some stupid HTML+CSS thing that sets a height too small < 1598731725 423960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, changing the height isn't enough, because then it overlaps something else < 1598731789 479990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand why this user CSS rule doesn't match this element < 1598731875 886160 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you check its effects in the inspector? (At least, that is what I did.) < 1598731905 494577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what I'm trying to do < 1598731972 688550 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For if you change your mind. https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/sieve.eg https://github.com/egel-lang/egel/blob/master/examples/sieveK.eg < 1598732010 240407 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I think would be useful to have "meta-CSS" which is only usable in user CSS codes and cannot be specified by the web page author, and can be used for making selections based on other CSS commands, setting priorities differently, etc. < 1598732041 444533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-192.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the inspector says `