←2020-09-07 2020-09-08 2020-09-09→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:29:52 <esowiki> [[05AB1E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77350&oldid=77338 * JonoCode9374 * (-21)
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04:21:22 <int-e> spruit11: so... glucose is the only improvement, everything else made matters worse ;)
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04:43:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77351&oldid=77317 * TwilightSparkle * (+192)
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08:21:11 <arseniiv> isn’t the weather nice
08:27:20 <arseniiv> I’m disposing of my old C++, HTML, CSS, JS, Delphi and something books putting them away to do something later. Shame they almost surely aren’t interesting to anyone for some time, as there are internet resources aplenty
08:28:12 <arseniiv> and C++ ones weren’t even about any of the modern language standards
08:28:47 <arseniiv> even at their printing dates :(
08:33:00 <arseniiv> maybe their authors thought the differences are minor and mainly surface-level, or maybe those were the times so even they weren’t knowledgeable enough. There wasn’t much choice in bookstores on really interesting topics, and I was wise to cease going there to search something programming-related long ago. But not too long ago to have no dead weight on the shelf
08:46:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77352&oldid=77344 * Keymaker * (+205) Reply.
08:48:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77353&oldid=77352 * Keymaker * (+238) Another reply.
08:52:24 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices
08:52:57 <b_jonas> you can't really do anything with them unless you need a doorstopper
08:53:22 <arseniiv> hah
08:54:05 <int-e> kindling for a fire
08:54:49 <arseniiv> b_jonas: BTW have it ended well for that monitor with sticky buttons?
08:54:49 <int-e> Hmm. Fahrenheit 451
08:55:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: probably yes. on thursday and friday it seemed to be working fine. it will need a few more days of testing, but right now I'm a bit ill so I'm working from home, so I can't tell for sure yet
08:56:12 <arseniiv> <int-e> kindling for a fire => they really picked an interesting word to name their ebook readers, yeah
08:56:49 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh
08:57:05 <b_jonas> I would like to work in the office, and would be if this was last year
08:57:42 <b_jonas> but right now both my boss and my supervisor told me very clearly that we are not to work in while we are ill
08:57:51 <b_jonas> so either I can work from home, or not at all
08:58:00 <arseniiv> maybe that’s for the best if it’s quiet at home
08:58:55 <b_jonas> this is not a too tenable position, if I always have to work from home when I'm a bit ill, then I miss too much in the office, but there's not much I can do now
08:59:10 <b_jonas> yes, I have no kids
08:59:57 <arseniiv> they say a cold is not as severe if one’s moving not too much and can be in comfort temperature-wise
09:00:14 <b_jonas> anyway, I'll be afk for a bit, I actually have to run into the office now because I left the mouse in there. I knew I had to bring the mouse, but somehow messed it up when I packed the notebook. probably concentrated on making sure that I bring the HDMI cable.
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09:00:49 <arseniiv> though for something flu-like that would be more of a necessity, to avoid complications like bacteria etc
09:01:09 <int-e> arseniiv: Well, Google used "Nexus" for their android device brand, which is a very interesting literary reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F
09:01:21 <b_jonas> also I'm going to buy a new non-work computer for home, I'll tell about it later
09:01:45 <b_jonas> I'm both excited and a bit terrified because now I know approximately how much it will cost, even though the order isn't finalized yet
09:02:26 <arseniiv> b_jonas: wish you luck for all of that combined!
09:03:15 <b_jonas> thx
09:03:47 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, I didn’t remember they were called Nexus there
09:08:25 <arseniiv> s/remember/know/; I even didn’t watch the movie adaptation but heard of all that
09:10:02 <int-e> I only discovered this a few years ago when reading the novel.
09:42:29 <rain1> there exists a universal turing machine
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09:43:05 <arseniiv> nice!
09:44:01 <rain1> assume we can decide halting with a turing machine, then define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T)) { loop(); } else { return; }
09:44:18 <arseniiv> (I couldn’t contain myself; this wasn’t intended to look snarky so if it ended up being such, sorry)
09:44:21 <Taneb> <b_jonas> arseniiv: yea, there are a lot of bad programming books that teach ancient bad practices <--- I remember when I was first learning C from a textbook my dad used at uni
09:44:24 <rain1> How do we get a contradiction again? Halts(Lie(Lie(Lie(...))) ??
09:44:37 <rain1> maybe I need to define Lie(T) = if(Halts(T(T))) { loop(); } else { return; }
09:44:48 <Taneb> It gave a Hello World relying on very architecture-specific undefined behaviour
09:45:18 <rain1> then we can case on Halts(Lie(Lie)): if it does it doesn't if it doesn't it does
09:45:45 <rain1> but we can recursively enumerate the turing machines that do halt
09:46:42 <rain1> Now suppose there is a turing machine that determines if a turing machine that takes an input halts on all of its inputs
09:47:09 <rain1> AlwaysHalts(TM) = TM(0) halts and TM(1) halts and etc..
09:47:26 <rain1> How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts?
09:48:02 <rain1> certainly AlwaysHalts lets us implement halts, just make a turing machine that drops its input and executes a TM that takes no input
09:49:09 <rain1> We can enumerate all halting TMs, so we can use the universal TM with that to construct a turing machine with input n that executes the n'th turing machine that halts I think? And AlwaysHalts is true of this
09:50:06 <arseniiv> hm it really does seem to be stronger, as there are infinitely many inputs and we can’t prove a TM halts for all of them in finite time…
09:50:06 <rain1> it makes sense that Halts wouldn't be able to answer this question, since if you wanted to tweak it to have no input you could maybe have it execute every halting TM in sequence
09:50:12 <rain1> but that wouldn't halt even though every single TM would halt
09:50:16 <rain1> but this isn't a proof
09:50:35 <arseniiv> yeah
09:50:44 <rain1> Can we do another simple Liar type construction?
09:51:07 <cpressey> <rain1> How can we show that AlwaysHalts is stronger that Halts? <-- show that AlwaysHalts is only recursively enumerable *even if* you have an oracle that answers Halts for you
09:51:39 <rain1> I like that
09:52:07 <cpressey> Something like Liar but that calls the oracle might work
09:52:37 <arseniiv> so one needs to show that its complement is not enumerable hm
09:53:59 <rain1> the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?)
09:55:26 <rain1> I feel like we could enumerate these: we would loop over n and make sure the n'th turing machine doesn't halt. So this language is the union of NthLoops(0) u NthLoops(1) u ...
09:55:45 <int-e> fungot: do you know any compliments?
09:55:45 <fungot> int-e: in drscheme random works for me... i am not very good
09:55:48 <arseniiv> <rain1> the compliment would be TMs with one input that don't halt for at least once input (right?) => yep
09:57:16 <arseniiv> fungot: don’t be so shy
09:57:17 <fungot> arseniiv: okay, now what would happen
09:59:41 <arseniiv> rain1: but again we wouldn’t get the negative answer is finite time?
09:59:57 <arseniiv> in*
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10:08:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77354&oldid=77328 * DGCK81LNN * (+271)
10:08:59 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77355&oldid=75742 * DGCK81LNN * (+280) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */ Added another version I created
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10:18:40 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+658) Created page with "Hi, my username is quite confusing and you can call me Roy. I'm from China and I'm kinda addicted in in [[Befunge]] these days. __NOTOC__ ==== A [[Befunge]] program that creat..."
10:19:32 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77357&oldid=77356 * DGCK81LNN * (+0)
10:28:14 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77358&oldid=77357 * DGCK81LNN * (+594)
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11:05:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77359&oldid=77351 * SunnyMoon * (+161) Answer alert!
11:33:46 <rain1> hmm
11:33:49 <rain1> i don't really get this
11:34:01 <rain1> i willl try some scribbling later
11:58:03 <esowiki> [[Truth machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77360 * SunnyMoon * (+27) Redirection.
11:59:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77361&oldid=77353 * SunnyMoon * (+118) Done!
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14:36:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Supyovalk * New user account
14:42:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77362&oldid=77354 * Supyovalk * (+153) /* Introductions */
14:43:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77363&oldid=77362 * Supyovalk * (+90)
14:44:22 <esowiki> [[Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77364&oldid=74696 * Supyovalk * (+218) /* Examples in programming languages */
14:45:49 <esowiki> [[T]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77365 * Lebster * (+110) Created page with "T is a work-in-progress esolang being created by [[user:Lebster]]. The project started in early september 2020"
14:46:30 <esowiki> [[User:Lebster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77366&oldid=75987 * Lebster * (+110) /* Created Languages */
14:46:32 <esowiki> [[Binary to unary conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77367&oldid=77364 * Supyovalk * (-35) /* Phyton 3.0 - removed useless print lines*/
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16:26:07 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77368&oldid=77355 * DGCK81LNN * (-1) /* Simple game ("Less or More") */
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18:19:34 <rain1> any updates on turing machines?
18:22:21 <arseniiv> rain1: IDK, I’m dumb today
18:24:12 <arseniiv> I woke up earlier to receive a midi keyboard I ordered and it arrived only just a twenty minutes ago :D
18:24:30 <arseniiv> logistic difficultes
18:24:42 <rain1> oh fun!
18:24:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baguette * New user account
18:25:21 <arseniiv> I think I’ll read a bit of webfiction, go sleeping and only tomorrow unpack this thing and check if everything’s alright
18:25:32 <rain1> > A machine with an oracle for the halting problem can determine whether particular Turing machines will halt on particular inputs, but they cannot determine, in general, whether machines equivalent to themselves will halt
18:25:35 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:129: error: <hint>:1:129: error: parse error on input ‘,’
18:25:36 <rain1> this is understable
18:25:44 <rain1> have a good night!
18:27:06 <arseniiv> rain1: yeah, I have a fluttering mood a couple of days now, I hope I’ll restart making some music, maybe I’ll be able to explore microtonality (though the 12edo keyboard is not as optimal, it’s still way better than nothing!)
18:27:53 <arseniiv> thanks, have a good night also when you’ll go to sleep!
18:28:19 <arseniiv> hopefully there would be absolutely no defects
18:28:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77369&oldid=77363 * Baguette * (+392) /* Introductions */
18:28:47 <arseniiv> I’m a bit anxious when it comes to buying things of this scale
18:29:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77370&oldid=77369 * Baguette * (+1) /* Introductions */
18:51:22 <rain1> https://twitter.com/apu_yokai/status/1303308968521940994
18:51:28 <rain1> you can make nand gates out of physical linkages
18:52:52 <kmc> oh neat
18:54:03 <kmc> that reminds me, i got an ad for this toy the other day https://www.turingtumble.com/
18:55:37 <hendursaga> kmc: I remember when they were doing the Kickstarter for that, I believe someone came up with a simulator not long after
18:56:42 <arseniiv> <rain1> you can make nand gates out of physical linkages => wow, and relatively simple!
18:57:04 <kmc> cool
18:57:12 <rain1> omg thats so awesom
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19:08:42 <arseniiv> reminds a bit of Turing trains or what were they called
19:31:02 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+2137) Create the SCREAMCODE page
19:32:42 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77372&oldid=76864 * Baguette * (+75) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
19:37:09 <esowiki> [[User:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77373 * Baguette * (+84) Created page with "I'm an 18-year-old Computer Science student, and the loser that made [[SCREAMCODE]]."
19:40:10 <rain1> we can talk about recognition and acceptance of languages
19:44:18 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77374&oldid=77371 * Baguette * (+155)
19:59:20 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77375&oldid=77374 * Baguette * (+34) Specify tape size
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20:01:27 <imode> that linkage thing is hella neat.
20:01:52 <imode> http://www.cr31.co.uk/stagecast/trains/tt0_intro.html <-- the turing trains thing.
20:02:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Openttd, and I was just thinking of it because I think there's some unexplored eso-potential for building the same logic circuits in a less efficient way
20:06:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Baguette]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77376 * Baguette * (+50) Created page with "If you want, you can email me at baguette@SDF.ORG."
20:12:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77377&oldid=77315 * Baguette * (+17) /* S */
20:12:46 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77378&oldid=77375 * Baguette * (+28)
20:17:57 <fizzie> I did some crude OpenTTD logic gates back some 15 years ago, and probably talked about them here.
20:19:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that before or after path-based signals?
20:21:12 <fizzie> Right on the dot, more or less. NPF ("New Pathfinding") was in the trunk, but not in any release. It did rely on that.
20:21:20 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic if you're interested.
20:21:55 <fizzie> Actually, maybe it predates path signals and just relies on pre-signals.
20:22:27 <b_jonas> oh, pre-signals are much older, they come from ttdpatch
20:22:40 <b_jonas> and most logic relies on pre-signals or path-based signals
20:22:50 <b_jonas> most of it relies on at least some pre-signals
20:23:07 <b_jonas> even if you use path signals, pre-signals are needed for some parts of the logic
20:23:51 <b_jonas> but I admit there's still a lot that I don't understand about openttd logic
20:24:13 <fizzie> "The path signals follow a different concept and were first introduced with OpenTTD version 0.7." Okay, it's before that, because the writeup mentions as the most recent release.
20:24:22 <b_jonas> mostly because all the tutorials and coop savegames have horribly large complicated examples, not small minimal constructions to demonstrate one thing and only tha
20:26:09 <b_jonas> "The image is rather big: a 1450x708px PNG" ah yes, that is old.
20:27:02 <fizzie> I don't know if it really counted as that big any more, TBH.
20:28:34 <b_jonas> so far the openttd games that I play don't incorporate any specific logic, that is, there are signals to make trains run smoothly, but no specific tracks and signals and trains just for logic, not even the simple priority crossing
20:28:42 <b_jonas> but this might chnage
20:29:18 <b_jonas> if I manage to understand how logic works, I'll probably add eso-logic that makes the trains less efficient in effect, but more fun to watch
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21:17:48 <esowiki> [[Godelfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77379 * Salpynx * (+24) redirect from ascii
21:17:52 <oshaboy> There is an entire channel for esolangs?
21:18:06 <oshaboy> I have actually been working on an esolang as a dare
21:18:15 <oshaboy> A RISC assembly with only 8 bit instructions
21:18:23 <oshaboy> not 8 bit opcodes like the 6502
21:18:29 <oshaboy> 8 bit instructions
21:18:29 <imode> it gets weirder from here.
21:18:53 <oshaboy> I know you can modify brainfuck to RISC and get 4 bit instructions
21:19:00 <oshaboy> It's actually not really an esolang
21:19:16 <oshaboy> I put quite a bit of effort to cram the most useful stuff into 256 instructions
21:19:43 <oshaboy> Maybe I should try making one with a 6 bit instruction width
21:19:50 <oshaboy> So all programs will be in base 64
21:20:58 <b_jonas> `welcome oshaboy
21:21:01 <HackEso> oshaboy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:21:16 <b_jonas> yes, there's an entire channel. but it doesn't always stay on topic.
21:21:52 <oshaboy> https://docs.google.com/document/d/13043UrFZGNRNyHOM0GJprrVCFdFIiRqx05xet2FEQSM/edit?usp=sharing
21:21:56 <oshaboy> Here are the details
21:22:04 <oshaboy> I just made some room for 7 more instructions
21:22:11 <oshaboy> What do you think I should add?
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21:48:54 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77380&oldid=77378 * Baguette * (+20)
21:53:35 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77381&oldid=77380 * Baguette * (+28)
21:57:33 <esowiki> [[SCREAMCODE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77382&oldid=77381 * Baguette * (-15)
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21:59:14 <b_jonas> oshaboy: that seems like it only has a very inefficient way to load an immediate to a register. you need like six instructions for it, unless I'm missing something.
22:00:25 <b_jonas> oshaboy: also I don't understand how you have a "SUB AX,BY" macro that expands to "SUB X,Y" when there doesn't seem to be an instruction or macro "SUB X,Y"
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22:07:15 <b_jonas> oshaboy: have you considered restricting some of those instructions in favor of being able to load an immediate byte more efficiently, since that's useful and you only have indirect jumps; or cheating by adding an instruction that loads from the immediate byte after the instruction and skips that byte; or at least cheating with PC-relative addresses like in PDP-8?
22:08:58 <moony> b_jonas: Talked with them about it earlier
22:09:10 <b_jonas> oshaboy: also I don't understand how jumps farther than 128 bytes work, since all the branch instructions seem to have only short offsets
22:09:11 <moony> they're strongly opposed to immediates of any form for some reason.
22:09:45 <b_jonas> and since the code doesn't seem very compact, you will need a lot of far jumps
22:09:58 <b_jonas> are you supposed to set up a jump ladder like once every 120 bytes?
22:10:15 <b_jonas> also have you written any example programs and interpreter?
22:10:17 <shachaf> i,i SUB AX,BY = AB SUB X,Y
22:10:39 <moony> iirc they've done neither?
22:10:56 <b_jonas> having all of LDIFF, SUBF, and FLIPF seems rather redundant
22:20:02 <b_jonas> moony: I guess I just don't know what counts as a "RISC" here. if I really wanted to build something low-level with 8-bit opcodes, I'd make it full cisc.
22:20:30 <b_jonas> and I'm not sure how much you need to be able to call it "RISC", so I can't give good advice.
22:21:40 <oshaboy> b_jonas: Yes, loading immidiates is quite inefficient, but I doubt there is a better way
22:22:01 <oshaboy> b_jonas: the psuedo ops are based on an older instruction set, I didn't update them
22:23:27 <oshaboy> b_jonas: There is LONGJUMP
22:23:54 <oshaboy> which is absolute
22:24:16 <b_jonas> ok
22:25:17 <oshaboy> Well if I have a loader of the next byte it isn't really an 8 bit instruction, is it
22:26:03 <b_jonas> that's why I said "cheat"
22:26:07 <oshaboy> Also how often do you need an immediate that requires more than 3 bits set?
22:26:11 <oshaboy> *immideate
22:26:18 <b_jonas> oshaboy: often, if that's how you can short jump[
22:26:49 <oshaboy> I can't spell
22:27:05 <oshaboy> Good point
22:27:29 <oshaboy> but you can also store an immiditi you use often in memory
22:27:44 <b_jonas> oshaboy: how do you load it though? you have to load the address first
22:28:28 <oshaboy> Maybe I will add an unconditional skip so you can sneak bytes into the code
22:31:30 <oshaboy> So if you do xor x,x; set; putf x,1; memory a,x; skip; byte 0xaa;
22:32:26 <oshaboy> I don't know, I think it is easier to just do xor a,a; set; putf a,1; putf a,3; putf a,5; putf a,7
22:32:39 <b_jonas> oshaboy: that's hardly an improvement, you can already load anything with just five or six instructions I think
22:32:56 <b_jonas> I mean any byte
22:33:27 <oshaboy> I think bit sets are enough
22:33:40 <oshaboy> ldi is a bit cheating
22:33:58 <oshaboy> requires 2 clock cycles on a theoretical processor
22:34:54 <oshaboy> Usually on RISC the only commands that require more than 1 cycle are memory and branch instructions
22:35:01 <oshaboy> also this is kind of an esolang anyway
22:35:12 <oshaboy> so weird implementation is kind of a given
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22:41:05 <imode> look at y'all talking about processor cycles and stuff that takes nanoseconds. I'm jelly.
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22:47:53 <moony> b_jonas: looking at their instruction set, they have a fatal flaw with the whole "RISC" thing anyways:
22:48:12 <moony> it's more complex to implement than a proper RISC
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22:56:33 <zzo38> Is there a version of the "Fixed" fonts with DEC encodings and other encodings?
22:58:25 <zzo38> (With what I have, some characters will not work.)
22:58:27 <moony> zzo38: monospace font?
22:59:24 <zzo38> Yes, and specifically bitmap font too
23:00:09 <moony> zzo38: which encodings? DEC has multiple
23:00:54 <zzo38> All of them.
23:01:32 <moony> i mean, unicode fonts should support most things...?
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23:02:39 <moony> fun, Unicode is missing some from DEC Technical
23:02:40 <zzo38> Well, they don't. For one thing, the DEC Technical character set is not supported.
23:03:08 <moony> the problem characters are 31 through 37, rest have unicode equivs
23:03:52 <moony> those in particular
23:04:03 <moony> you could solve by making your own font data in the private use area
23:04:16 <moony> and having some translation method
23:04:28 <zzo38> Yes, although I do not want a Unicode encoded font, but rather a font encoded using the DEC encoding
23:05:06 <moony> I don't know if anything even would support such a font
23:05:12 <moony> what's the usecase?
23:05:16 <moony> and on what software?
23:05:28 <zzo38> (Conversion between Unicode and other encodings is not always lossless anyways)
23:05:35 <zzo38> Well, to make a better terminal emulator.
23:05:57 <moony> I think you might need to develop the font yourself
23:06:25 <moony> best way to do that would be to render unicode characters and make good use of the private use area, imo
23:06:34 <zzo38> (and the character properties between Unicode and other character sets do not always match, either)
23:07:35 <moony> PUA can have whatever properties you want
23:08:54 <zzo38> How can you tell programs to use them though? As far as I know, I have not seen any such thing.
23:09:15 <moony> zzo38: Your terminal emulator is presumably the only thing that'd use it, internally, to make font handling easier
23:09:49 <moony> would let you use an existing font renderer
23:11:38 <zzo38> X has font rendering
23:12:25 <moony> X font rendering probably shouldn't be used. It's effectively deprecated, like the rest of X that's not just frame buffers
23:12:54 <shachaf> Don't people still use Xft?
23:12:56 <shachaf> I don't know.
23:13:12 <moony> Pretty much everything uses freetype and other renderers directly in a framebuffer
23:13:43 <zzo38> Well, I prefer to use bitmap fonts instead, and I think the X font rendering is suitable
23:14:16 <moony> if you want bitmap, implement it yourself, it's very simple for monospace. Xft is on it's last legs.
23:14:32 <moony> even then freetype supports bitmap
23:14:39 <zzo38> I don't mean Xft; I mean the X core font rendering
23:15:36 <moony> X core font rendering is extremely legacy
23:16:52 <zzo38> That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
23:17:24 <moony> if something is included with distributions solely for compatibility reasons, you probably shouldn't use it
23:17:36 <moony> you'd be writing modern legacy software
23:19:06 <moony> it's been legacy since 2000
23:19:21 <moony> and probably a bit earlier than that
23:20:01 <moony> it's better for future compatibility to not depend on old X11 features
23:20:52 <moony> Currently, Wayland is starting to make it's way into being the default windowing environment for some distributions
23:21:11 <shachaf> Wayland just seems worse than X.
23:21:30 <shachaf> I sure hope people don't settle on it.
23:22:32 <zzo38> I still use X and do not want to use Wayland. Would there be a way to display Wayland programs inside of a X window though (each one in its own window)?
23:22:51 <moony> Programs will likely support both for a long time
23:23:10 <moony> most people use wrappers for handling window initialization/framebuffers so their stuff works on all platforms
23:24:15 <shachaf> I wrote Xlib code and it was a little clunky but overall it worked OK.
23:24:27 <shachaf> Then I tried to port my thing to Wayland and it was so unpleasant I just gave up.
23:24:53 <moony> as I use rust, I'm usually using Winit or a similar wrapper that handles the details for me. For C/C++ there's SDL2
23:26:22 <shachaf> SDL is OK until it doesn't do something you want.
23:26:44 <shachaf> But if a platform API is good, it should be usable directly.
23:26:55 <shachaf> Wayland's excuse "everyone just uses GTK anyway" is ridiculous.
23:27:09 <shachaf> (The excuse for only doing client-side decorations.)
23:27:39 <zzo38> I sometimes use SDL1, for some things.
23:28:07 <zzo38> I don't like GTK much though; I like some of the features of Xaw, which newer libraries don't do
23:28:37 <moony> shachaf: xdg-decoration was added for this. Either way I do agree Wayland isn't ideal
23:28:40 <zzo38> And it does not seem to be able to configure GTK to work like Xaw
23:28:45 <moony> but it's also best to not depend on old X11 features
23:28:59 <shachaf> Which old X11 features?
23:29:08 <moony> X core font in zzo38's case
23:29:25 <shachaf> Oh. Maybe?
23:30:35 <moony> zzo38: per Xorg's info on fonts: `While X.Org continues to maintain the core fonts system, client software authors are encouraged to switch to Xft as soon as possible.`
23:30:52 <moony> so it's either xft, or using freetype/etc like most of the ecosystem
23:31:40 <zzo38> moony: Yes, I know that, and I don't want to use that. I specifically want to use non-Unicode bitmap fonts.
23:32:23 <shachaf> Too bad text rendering is incredibly complicated.
23:32:30 <moony> you can use bitmap fonts though. And refusing to use Unicode will get you into a host of issues, tbh
23:32:48 <moony> this is the kind of situation private use areas were allocated for
23:33:06 <moony> if you need to be able to redefine font data though, which I believe some terminals can do
23:33:13 <moony> you'd be better off drawing the font yourself
23:33:48 <zzo38> Yes, and a different set of issues than refusing to use stuff other than Unicode. It depends on the application. Unicode is helpful for displaying web pages, for one thing. For many things it just gets in the way though.
23:34:55 <zzo38> (PUA only partially helps. It causes its own set of problems.)
23:35:31 <zzo38> (And, of course, for some thing is very good idea to avoid homoglyph attacks.)
23:37:07 <moony> if my goal was high compat with DEC terminals, i'd implement the font rendering myself, and store character data as u16s with a UTF-8 mapping available to convert it as needed
23:37:47 <moony> (which, on that note, a high compat terminal is in my interest, working on VAX emulation and all)
23:40:33 <zzo38> One problem with using Unicode for terminal emulation is the need for character property tables. (I designed my own encoding for terminal emulation (and not for anything else; it is for one use only) that gets rid of the need for character property tables.)
23:40:37 <zzo38> What terminals does VAX use?
23:40:45 <moony> various VTs
23:41:26 <moony> for system consoles, it's a custom terminal, iirc VAX-11/780's is a PDP-11/terminal hybrid that handles the whole bootstrap process alongside being a way to interface with the machine
23:42:26 <zzo38> I did think is VT, being DEC VAX, but that doesn't tell me which one. Also, is there a document for the terminal codes for the system consoles?
23:43:07 <moony> System consoles have an entirely custom, machine dependent bus. It's not worth the time trying to emulate them separately from the VAX itself
23:43:19 <moony> as for the VTs used: all of them. It's a super-mini, you can hook whatever to it
23:44:13 <b_jonas> fungot, where did you hide the body?
23:44:13 <fungot> b_jonas: anything else i could do it in bf: fnord/ fnord/ fr-wiki-data and i just asked
23:44:30 * moony grabs 780 maint handbook real quick
23:45:04 <zzo38> Yes, I expected as much, but which were common (or were all DEC terminals common)? Even if it is not worth trying to emulate the system consoles separately from the VAX itself, still would be helpful to know what the codes are, both to write software for VAX and just being curious to compare them.
23:45:06 <shachaf> ^style
23:45:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
23:45:18 <shachaf> ^style ukparl
23:45:18 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
23:45:39 <moony> codes are the same as a normal VT system. VT220, VT340, etc, were all common. Just look at the most common VTs and you'll know the most common for use with VAX :P
23:47:09 <zzo38> O, so they are the same codes, even if it is a custom terminal.
23:47:09 <moony> VAX-11/780's system console is connected by a 30 pin cable to a card in the cabinet, for example. No point in emulating that
23:47:12 <moony> yes
23:48:14 <zzo38> Yes, there probably is no point emulating VAX system console except for emulating VAX itself.
23:48:50 <moony> especially as the 780 system console basically has direct access to the ucode pathways, so it'd be abstracted away in any sane emulator
23:52:25 <moony> I've looked into implementing a ucode level 780 emulator and it looks like quite a large task, and it'd have terrible performance
23:52:27 <moony> for little gain
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