< 1600217760 69346 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600220201 84184 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1600220414 385233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Tetrapyronia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77514&oldid=77510 5* 03Tetrapyronia 5* (+0) 10/* -1 */ < 1600220439 908053 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600221163 883381 :ATMunn!ATMunn@hellomouse.net QUIT :Quit: lol rip < 1600221248 453666 :ATMunn!ATMunn@hellomouse.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600225808 978983 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1600226076 492993 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600226395 507705 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1600226611 469719 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600226782 617131 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does the throwing distance table in GURPS use the reciprocal of the weight ratio if it is more than 1, but the square root of the reciprocal if it is less than 1? < 1600226843 910301 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1600226849 565342 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1600226884 747186 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1600227006 100864 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1600228949 618789 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1600228978 864887 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar JOIN :#esoteric < 1600232929 613392 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1600232974 820362 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1600233234 468265 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1600236730 952200 :gitlogger!~gitlogger@206.ip-51-91-102.eu JOIN :#esoteric > 1600238660 308975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Serenity14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77515&oldid=76341 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10/* Instructions */ > 1600241291 388208 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MAWP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77516&oldid=76684 5* 03Dion 5* (+1642) 10 < 1600241872 633858 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1600243012 133322 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03X64Mayhem 5* 10New user account > 1600243577 469810 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77517&oldid=77495 5* 03X64Mayhem 5* (+125) 10/* Introductions */ < 1600243628 909618 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1600243757 191482 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1600243923 961075 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1600244032 967705 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1600246115 437548 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1600246696 990725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1600246950 556169 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the yaks are staring me in the face. < 1600246957 262165 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one to shave first? < 1600246958 992100 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: exactly. There are several approaches in the current Haskell like that one (I think tagless final encoding is another?) and I’m interested how well they are used etc. < 1600246975 82080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the closest one < 1600247013 570112 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but from a safe distance? < 1600247016 823536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1600247028 674543 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realize I know nothing about yak-shaving. < 1600247033 304305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: HELP! < 1600247033 676332 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that the committee do and for organising the election, because, guess what, it shows to the fnord intelligence that is as efficient and effective as possible. < 1600247054 201432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, sounds political... EU? UK? < 1600247057 905359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1600247058 6942 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube < 1600247085 144954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style homestuck < 1600247085 288680 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673) < 1600247090 200819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what does this do? < 1600247090 442955 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: is it possible for one of your b100d and a beating heart tells in me, even the idiots. they are the most delicious bunches, < 1600247142 144449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: don't end on a comma like that < 1600247142 284606 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but it is your journey i am so over this puzzle, < 1600247158 20127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: did they teach you nothing in grammar school? < 1600247158 131564 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'. < 1600247211 51877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( ^style urandom ) < 1600247312 703680 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in languages with less of a type system. I tried making some stuff with mypy (one of typecheckers for Python) but usually I can’t express things. Though mypy is really neat, it can express unions, self-types and “overloaded” functions (as Python doesn’t have overloads; but you can make several alternative type signatures for a function) and also has Delphi-esque “type of class” thing. Once I used unions for something lik < 1600247312 848570 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :e à la carte thing, but I think I couldn’t tie the knot or something; there were some problems if not this one < 1600247486 818699 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothing about yak shaving too < 1600247529 85847 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren’t they sufficiently sheep-like in this regard? < 1600247529 233696 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think knot tying is possible but everything needs to be point free since there's no type level lambda < 1600247582 425406 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :my cat says that meaow < 1600247673 15401 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts preparing some post-it notes that read "Shaggy because not shaved yet because reasons" instead < 1600247712 292768 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do those go on the yaks? < 1600247832 989592 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Presumably. < 1600248048 84477 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1600248338 669847 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to look into what "final tagless" and "free monad interpreter" and these other things were, the other day. < 1600248391 662990 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there were a few interesting things I picked up, but none of it had much appeal to me < 1600248578 233172 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The general idea of "evidence types" is a good one. < 1600248731 348748 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it seems like it would be sometimes be difficult to apply. I'm writing a compiler, the language has a fairly complex AST. Some nodes at the leaves of the AST represent names. Those names can be unresolved, or resolved to refer to particular symbols. < 1600248786 313697 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be great to give them a different type if they were resolved, but, then the AST has to be able to contain two types of name nodes. Should the AST also get a different type? < 1600248805 348816 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, then it's not very much different from a sum type, which I'm already using. < 1600248823 657365 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google "evidence types" < 1600248824 628592 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :No Result Found. < 1600248852 623260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. I guess that code bit-rotted. < 1600248883 932626 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"evidence type": instead of checking "is this valid", return Just a typed value representing a valid instance of the thing if it is valid, or Nothing otherwise < 1600248892 700739 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a.k.a a solution to "boolean blindness" < 1600248897 961531 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this jargon < 1600249228 375482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was not connected to final tagless nor free monads? < 1600249253 24412 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*those* two are, to my mind, at best loosely connected) < 1600249281 188981 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, final tagless seems to be mainly a version of evidence types where, for each effect, there's an evidence type witnessing the fact that this function may use that effect < 1600249293 365461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in that the expression problem comes up when you want to make a free monad extensible) < 1600249301 499042 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, evidence typeclasses, I suppose < 1600249322 218726 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free monads is more or less something else entirely, yes < 1600249713 274389 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing with the expression problem is, y'know, I really don't mind recompiling if I have to. < 1600249744 743851 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not 1998 anymore. < 1600249810 405936 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, in a lot of language ecosystems, people still do want to distribute libraries as opaque binary blobs, but. < 1600249999 641492 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, isn't the whole expression problem just an admission that deep down, we want OOP ;-) < 1600250096 378853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm semiserious about this. The problem is one that in OO languages would be solved by inheritance, plus some visitors.) < 1600250130 435779 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, a lot of this has the feel of typed functional programming trying to play catch-up to OOP. < 1600250176 220051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as for its motivation... I think it still comes up when you want to provide a base tree type in a library and let users extend it with new node types. < 1600253192 780535 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there was something like a dual to FP's expression problem in OO. < 1600254049 470983 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, though the expression problem exists there are usually okay work arounds to the problem. < 1600254059 228505 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: Lunch < 1600255435 939627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: I believe the OO version of the problem is that it's hard to add new operations. < 1600255494 811591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you follow the pattern of having one method per operation that is overloaded in every inherited object that needs its own behavior) < 1600255579 537899 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it doesn't completely go away if you implement the visitor pattern (fold + traverse ;-) ) because now the visitor has a method for each child class, so that becomes hard to extend. < 1600255634 899717 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming is hard < 1600255838 457629 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but what is never mentioned is that you can sometimes defensively work around it, right? I find that a bit of a shame. < 1600256002 419469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not buzzword-compatible. < 1600256027 998573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to write papers about too < 1600256047 329548 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we did the boring thing and nothing exciting ever happened" < 1600256165 795770 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://xkcd.com/1827/ is relevant < 1600256488 62436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For every success story about a new programming paradigm, how many failures are there? We usually don't know.) < 1600256763 418265 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah, it's hard to find honest academics. < 1600256804 15606 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually, you're supposed to figure out all drawbacks to some approach yourself. < 1600256818 475893 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's about honesty per se. < 1600257157 296894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's almost no incentive for writing papers about failures... for the people who fail. I'm sure there are researchers on project management, software engineering and the like who lament that situation... they'd love to analyse failed projects. < 1600257218 805084 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about motives, only about outcome. < 1600257240 467602 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's annoying if you always need to guess what isn't said. < 1600257469 711145 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sadly, the best place to find honest academics is at the bar near an academic conference... casual and off the record. < 1600257537 383083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And most of the publications don't lie either, but their scope is heavily biased towards success. < 1600257572 116947 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh did I mention that many venues have page limits for papers which means the authors have to decide which aspects of their work are most interesting and relevant? < 1600257603 362210 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mwa, I just take industry as a good lead. They're good at shaking out what's useful. < 1600257758 611214 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there's the problem of citations... papers in academia are basically worthless unless they're cited by others < 1600257856 254310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :industry... yeah that works as long as they don't try to sell you stuff (blockchain) < 1600258452 906765 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1600260841 870230 :hendursa1!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Quit: hendursa1 < 1600260856 821254 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1600262191 484382 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:fde9:5157:8346:348e QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1600264608 129203 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm industry hm that’s suboptimal still < 1600265222 477557 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600265295 442089 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stumbled on 2/0, a fan-made sequel to 1/0. Attempted to read it, abandoned it quickly. < 1600265329 453484 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it becomes good eventually, I don't recommend it < 1600265339 595923 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be intentionally annoying < 1600265793 319319 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language? < 1600266812 594597 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1600266820 246931 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? was referring to 2/0, the webcomic < 1600266820 620821 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : was referring to 2/0, the webcomic < 1600267167 798263 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1600268005 131028 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Filth14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77518&oldid=77487 5* 03Bananaapple 5* (+191) 10remove some ambiguity < 1600269529 86340 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonstandard, didactic, coherent. Pick any two < 1600269619 6159 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1600269829 85070 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1600270160 171650 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1600270638 911254 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AH, context helps. < 1600270773 598770 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: doesn't didactic imply coherent... < 1600270829 305570 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Not when the person being didactic has a decidedly nonstandard view of the world... < 1600270904 630921 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that rules out most academics again. < 1600270919 989839 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION *ducks* < 1600271063 766165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: I can't hear you from the top of my ivory tower. < 1600271089 235835 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: But ducking makes yoy a bigger target ;) < 1600271131 208767 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I can't hear you either because the mud down here gets into my ears. < 1600271219 440005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh "yoy", brilliant. < 1600271517 148898 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? x < 1600271517 513219 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : x < 1600271526 428053 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help ?? < 1600271529 296569 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯ < 1600271545 125448 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help ?? < 1600271545 611189 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1600271554 959282 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help "??" < 1600271555 492053 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1600271573 23023 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help verbatim < 1600271573 509094 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands < 1600271700 88947 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whois ?? < 1600271700 938755 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :whois? No such file or directory < 1600271704 670275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis ?? < 1600271705 685729 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​??(1hackeso) - no description < 1600271768 905932 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need 100 hours in a day and preferrably not more than 1/3 of them for sleep, to make room for all interesting things, and also for all necessary things < 1600271796 601390 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis @eval < 1600271797 737578 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​@eval: nothing appropriate. < 1600271805 889015 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis @ask < 1600271806 991376 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​@ask: nothing appropriate. < 1600271821 652055 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll ask nothing appropriate < 1600271843 339396 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I am so not interested in the difference between file descriptors (ints) and file handlers (FILE*) but I have the feeling I should find out more. < 1600271866 560352 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two kinds of them in the same OS? wow > 1600271911 394847 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:SpaghettiScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77519 5* 03UltimateProGrammer 5* (+597) 10Add note about implementation < 1600271918 524316 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C/C++ is messy. I can't find the abstractions I need in C++, dropped down to C, now I find there are two abstractions there. Just to make life convenient. < 1600271939 385509 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone else got it right though but I need to get a bit more assurance. < 1600271942 184933 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not. < 1600271969 47006 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just hack something usually works out fine too! < 1600272009 857923 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, what to do instead of descriptors/hadles? < 1600272043 593725 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh? I am just not very sure how safe it is to mix them. < 1600272077 546345 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, then it’s how I understood what you said < 1600272133 333247 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the start < 1600272174 36741 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a FILE* is probably a file descriptor with some extra buffering. Could be okay to mix. Unsure. < 1600272204 132667 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Watch me reading GCC code next.. :/ < 1600272231 258535 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.83.26.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I’d be anxious with that situation, as if you even experiment with them and they seem to be the same, or in a simple one-to-one relation, then there might be a rare case when they aren’t, so the only hope to cover the general situation is to find the root < 1600272235 163447 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: that is more or less the case. Just fflush() the FILE * before using the file descriptor inside it. < 1600272261 337331 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Good tip. > 1600272428 626127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SpaghettiScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77520&oldid=77440 5* 03UltimateProGrammer 5* (+77) 10Add count down < 1600272492 357910 :cpressey!~cpressey@79-72-201-114.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 > 1600273024 512022 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SpaghettiScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77521&oldid=77520 5* 03UltimateProGrammer 5* (+194) 10Add Converting code from other languages section < 1600273228 10792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: darn it, I should help you with the C++ right? give me a moment < 1600273278 991285 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1600273346 989009 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Uh, no? I am comfortable thinking this over. It's not a big change, just a thing which will take me some time to get to the stage where I feel comfortable I got it right. < 1600273363 739052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: sure, but I think you're missing a few things < 1600273423 228500 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a bit annoyed that C++ doesn't offer a number of abstractions I find are basic to Unix programming. I need pipes and a shell. < 1600273436 423966 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the f are they? < 1600273461 553342 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 2020... < 1600273474 344200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: so normally if you want to use both an std::ostream and a FILE on the same descriptor, then yes, you have to flush between them. but if you're using gcc on linux, then libstdc++ knows enough about glibc that they share their buffer, so you don't need that. this is documented in https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-10.2.0/libstdc++/manual/manual/io_and_c.html#std.io.c.FILE < 1600273514 209591 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that works only on the three standard handles I think < 1600273520 404773 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THere's no portable means of getting a file handle from a stream, I gathered? < 1600273532 834958 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seem to be different worlds. < 1600273561 39419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :spruit11: there's no portable way indeed, but there is a nonportable way on linux < 1600273570 207021 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang too? < 1600273587 985829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume so < 1600273606 85709 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I could do it but it would become a mess fast I think. I am dropping to C. < 1600273667 480707 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1600273933 514817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why do you need a file handle from a stream? I thought you need a C++ iostream from a file descriptor, to operate on an iostream after you do a popen < 1600274010 621119 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really see how to do that. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-10.2.0/libstdc++/manual/manual/ext_io.html#manual.ext.io.filebuf_derived is supposed to tell, but it doesn't seem to say whether closing that stream will close the underlying FILE, and it's hard to use this without that. < 1600274072 690164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably write your own class derived from std::streambuf that handles this though, and that's more portable < 1600274202 182805 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, popen doesn't seem to solve what I need/want. I need some exec, probably. Lemme look. < 1600274358 104985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically stdio and C++ streams are so weird that sometimes you want your own buffering abstractions < 1600274435 188103 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I could do popen for now but preferably I would also obtain a PID. < 1600274493 517175 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. Still in the reading stage and just following what Haskell and Python do. < 1600276186 373211 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1600276255 163456 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1600276268 214122 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1600276592 706173 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CaptainFoxtrot 5* 10New user account > 1600276868 291580 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77522&oldid=77517 5* 03CaptainFoxtrot 5* (+189) 10 < 1600278228 708601 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric > 1600279195 221077 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DeybisMelendez14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77523&oldid=75705 5* 03DeybisMelendez 5* (+405) 10More personal information < 1600280696 179106 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600281302 367084 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600282227 404386 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1600283505 176070 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1600285612 260214 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1600285859 94313 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-38-33.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1600288037 252688 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07InterpretMe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77524&oldid=74792 5* 03Cortex 5* (+233) 10Added python 3 interpreter > 1600288104 178549 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PythoLambda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77525&oldid=48920 5* 03Cortex 5* (+102) 10Added python 3 interpreter < 1600293794 608781 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1600294832 259637 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1600295772 901742 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 JOIN :#esoteric > 1600297565 641018 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:OsmineYT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77526&oldid=76842 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+160) 10 > 1600297806 287683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:OsmineYT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77527&oldid=77526 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+68) 10 > 1600297884 789730 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03OsmineYT 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Nou.png10]]": File created > 1600298030 360510 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77529 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+18) 10Created page with "" > 1600298309 203450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77530&oldid=76840 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+167) 10 > 1600298347 93632 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77531&oldid=77529 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+14) 10 > 1600298385 629384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77532&oldid=77531 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+5) 10 > 1600298432 816547 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77533&oldid=77532 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+3) 10 > 1600298476 54356 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77534&oldid=77533 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (-2) 10 > 1600298499 280697 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77535&oldid=77534 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+0) 10 > 1600298764 774941 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77536&oldid=77535 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+26) 10 > 1600298783 919773 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77537&oldid=77536 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (-1) 10 > 1600298798 269133 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77538&oldid=77537 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+1) 10 < 1600298799 136056 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1600298813 952670 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77539&oldid=77538 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+1) 10 > 1600298931 340181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77540&oldid=77539 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+32) 10 < 1600299076 508028 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric > 1600299107 18902 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77541&oldid=77540 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (-5) 10 > 1600299129 831069 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77542&oldid=77541 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+1) 10 > 1600299152 772583 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77543&oldid=77542 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+0) 10 > 1600299174 671144 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77544&oldid=77543 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+1) 10 > 1600299230 646939 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77545&oldid=77544 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (-29) 10 < 1600299555 540364 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1600300487 564391 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Lgkmkd 5* 10New user account