←2020-10-14 2020-10-15 2020-10-16→ ↑2020 ↑all
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01:39:40 <zzo38> I wrote a JavaScript code to read /dev/urandom and use that to make up random numbers, because the built-in one using floating random numbers when you actually want integers, isn't a very good way to do it, I think. The same is true of BASIC.
01:42:56 <shachaf> But the main reason to use JavaScript is to run in web browsers, which don't give you access to /dev/urandom.
01:44:15 <zzo38> Well, JavaScript is one programming language you can use in web pages (the other is WebAssembly), although it is not limited to web browsers. If you are using something that does give you such access (such as Node.js running on Linux), then you can.
01:50:05 <shachaf> You can't write web programs with just WebAssembly, though.
01:50:20 <shachaf> You always need JavaScript.
01:54:16 <zzo38> Well, many web pages should not need any document scripts at all
02:04:18 <Arcorann> 32-bit integers?
02:07:04 <zzo38> Yes, although you might want numbers in a certain range, and if it is not a power of two, then it might take more than one try before you get an acceptable number.
02:07:37 <int-e> If we're enumerating programming languages, GLSL and OpenCL may also work in browsers, depending on available hardware.
02:08:00 <Arcorann> https://github.com/dworthen/prng <-- searching online for javascript PRNGs turns up this
02:09:11 <Arcorann> https://github.com/bryc/code/blob/master/jshash/PRNGs.md <-- also this
02:10:15 <Arcorann> Of course, there's also whether you want cryptographic security or not
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05:40:26 <b_jonas> Erich Friedman confirmed that https://erich-friedman.github.io/ is maintained by him, it's not a third-party mirror. good.
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07:24:25 <cpressey> Once upon a time there was a language called "Java" that ran in web browsers. There was also something called "Flash"
07:26:29 <imode> is this a horror story.
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07:30:09 <shachaf> The idea of basing your language choice on your target platform is still ridiculous.
07:30:51 <shachaf> Portable high-level languages were invented in the 1950s or thereabouts, so the fact that this idea exists today is just ridiculous.
07:31:07 <cpressey> That's right. You should base your language choice on availability of programmers who will code in it for the lowest possible pay
07:31:49 <shachaf> Java only ever ran badly in web browsers. And neither Java nor Flash did general-purpose things. They just painted onto a special canvas.
07:33:56 <cpressey> I don't think there is such a thing as a general-purpose programming language, but Java can certainly be used in many application areas. Applets are (were) just one of those areas.
08:05:42 <zzo38> I think that different programming languages are suitable for different purposes, although being portable can also be useful. (There is also possibility to target only one VM, but for the VM itself to be portable, which is also useful in some cases. It might also be written for a different system which is then emulated, such as a computer game written for DOS but running on Linux.)
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08:07:10 <zzo38> (Even today some people write computer games for NES/Famicom; they will then work on not only NES/Famicom but also any computer that can emulate it.)
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08:36:01 <shachaf> cpressey: I mean, general-purpose inside a web browser.
08:36:09 <shachaf> I'm talking about the runtime environment, not the language.
08:46:26 <cpressey> Oh, I see. But if it's ridiculous to choose a language based on the platform it targets in the first place, then why does it even matter if some languages target some platforms poorly?
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08:54:17 <shachaf> I don't follow.
08:54:55 <shachaf> I was saying I didn't like Java applets (the platform) and Flash (the platform) for this reason. I wasn't commenting on the languages except to the extent they target those platforms.
08:55:55 <shachaf> My platform complaints are about web pages (JavaScript etc.), Android (Java), Apple platforms (Swift/Objective C), and so on.
08:56:35 <cpressey> OK.
08:57:01 <shachaf> I also didn't mean to complain more than a couple of linesworth.
08:57:42 <cpressey> OK.
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11:07:12 <cpressey> Trying to figure out what Haskell wants is frustrating and makes me feel shitty.
11:07:31 <cpressey> I should probably give up and leave this sort of thing to the people who have aptitude for it.
11:11:44 <wib_jonas> add more type annotations!
11:12:28 <wib_jonas> it's the only way to counter haskell's zealous global type inference
11:19:36 <cpressey> I don't understand what type annotation it wants
11:29:09 <cpressey> This is like playing one of those text adventures where the puzzles have arbitrary solutions
11:29:42 <cpressey> Giving up. Life is too short to be doing something that makes you feel this shitty.
11:40:17 <shachaf> Oh no.
11:41:18 <cpressey> It's only ~1500 lines, I can easily rewrite it in Python.
11:42:35 <Taneb> cpressey: can you share what you've been struggling with?
11:43:35 <cpressey> Taneb: I'd rather not.
11:43:42 <Taneb> OK
11:45:18 <cpressey> If someone else simply tells me what's wrong with it and how to fix it, will I learn anything from that?
11:45:26 <cpressey> I suspect not.
11:46:08 <wib_jonas> hmm, do we have a "the error is in line 42" meme here?
11:48:44 <Taneb> I might learn something about what's impossible
11:49:34 <cpressey> Or, to put it another way, I'd rather not share it because I don't want to feel even shittier still
11:51:08 <wib_jonas> rewriting the whole thing might work
11:51:16 <cpressey> "Thanks to their television-atrophied attention spans, these casual gamers are mentally incapable of spending six hours trying to randomly guess at the absurd dream logic Roberta Williams has applied to the problem of getting the dungeon key out of the bluebird's nest." -- http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html
11:51:55 <cpressey> (that article extends over 3 pages, it makes more sense if you read them all)
11:54:14 <cpressey> s/makes more sense/is much funnier/
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13:26:27 <cpressey> Oh, I have an even better idea than rewriting this project in Python. I could just not do it at all!
13:44:56 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon/Expirements]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77984 * SunnyMoon * (+47) New page!
13:46:15 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77985&oldid=77928 * SunnyMoon * (+119) Expirements...
13:49:30 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon/Expirements/Output in esolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=77986 * SunnyMoon * (+217) Output? What is that?
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14:23:17 <cpressey> Pissed off and feeling cheated. I want a solution to this.
14:29:05 <cpressey> The fact is that some people are not good at "thinking in types". I am one of them.
14:30:01 <cpressey> And as long as these people exists, languages whose entire culture is based on "thinking in types" can't promote themselves as being for everyone. It's disingenuous.
14:30:27 <myname> no language is for everyone
14:30:51 <cpressey> If the Haskell community was more elitist, it would be more honest of them.
14:31:13 <myname> what's your problem?
14:32:14 <cpressey> My problem is that while I like the bottom 15% of Haskell a lot, I'm not smart enough to work with the top 85% of Haskell.
14:32:22 <Taneb> I can't think in not-types :(
14:32:31 <wib_jonas> myname: doesn't say exactly because he wants to fix it himself, but it's probably still that monad transformer tower thing from a few days ago
14:32:33 <rain1> i think haskell is too complex, it's like C++
14:32:44 <rain1> the basics are really good like data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)
14:33:12 <rain1> you don't need to use the complex parts, they're kind of ugly
14:33:22 <myname> oof, i wouldn't compare haskell to c+|
14:33:28 <rain1> GHC then
14:33:28 <myname> ++
14:33:42 <myname> huh? ghc makes no sense here
14:33:45 <cpressey> If you don't use the complex parts you're "not really programming in Haskell".
14:34:06 <cpressey> More to the point, you're alienating yourself from the community and libraries.
14:34:07 <rain1> sure but i'm saying that you don't need to use haskell, just use the good parts tm
14:34:22 <rain1> the community alienated themselves by breaking everything
14:34:24 <rain1> tbh
14:35:13 <rain1> haskell was fine you have functors and monads, then they made everything traversible and the language wasn't as nice
14:36:03 <cpressey> Taneb: Which means you're the sort of person who should use Haskell, and that I am the sort of person that should not.
14:36:24 <Taneb> Perhaps!
14:36:35 <Taneb> But I think people should do what they find enjoyable, most of all
14:37:58 <wib_jonas> rain1: do you mean applicable instead of traversible?
14:38:16 <rain1> no applicative is cool
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14:42:32 <cpressey> Well, I don't enjoy feeling dumb and shitty.
14:42:57 <rain1> was there a specific thing that made you feel dumb?
14:43:26 <rain1> feel free to post your code
14:43:31 <myname> he won't
14:44:23 <cpressey> This isn't about my code.
14:45:41 <cpressey> I'm sure it's some reasonably straightforward problem with existential types, which I don't understand very well.
14:45:57 <rain1> existential are very very hard to use
14:46:03 <rain1> they never really make sense
14:46:12 <cpressey> I'm sure I could spend X amount of time studying existential types and eventually be able to understand the problem and fix it.
14:46:30 <cpressey> One problem is that X is very large, given that I do not "think in types".
14:46:36 <rain1> it would be better to avoid it if possible, there is one pattern of usage thaht is ok (the ST monad) but other than - try to avoid
14:46:55 <cpressey> Oh, but everyone uses GADTs.
14:47:21 <rain1> is there a specific GADT you want to work with
14:47:40 <cpressey> So, yes, I could luddite to Haskell98 with no LANGUAGE pragmas, which is what I have done until now
14:47:49 <rain1> that's the right thing to do imo
14:48:36 <wib_jonas> just rewrite it into a non-lazy language that doesn't require you to think in types
14:48:46 <wib_jonas> a multiparadigm language that doesn't bind your hands
14:49:34 <wib_jonas> one where you can write code by just writing what the computer has to do, instead of having to prove that compiler that it's correct
14:50:02 <cpressey> This isn't about my code.
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14:50:35 <cpressey> Besides, you don't have to prove your code is correct in Haskell -- you can happily write a monad that doesn't adhere to the monad laws
14:51:05 <rain1> that's why we have coq
14:53:41 <cpressey> Coq has a lot of appeal, but it's also a lot of work, and I would probably still be expected to "think in types" a lot of the time.
14:54:17 <cpressey> I keep saying this isn't about my code -- if anything it's about something in the Haskell community that is hard to pinpoint.
14:54:36 <rain1> in coq it's a bit more like mathematical logic
14:54:43 <rain1> so it can actually make more sense
14:54:46 <myname> writing what the computer has to do is my least favourite style of programming
14:57:22 <cpressey> Basically what I hate is when people who do think in types look down their nose at people who do not think in types.
14:57:45 <rain1> yea that sucks
14:57:51 <rain1> were people being dicks in #haskell or something?
15:00:13 <arseniiv> free hugs!
15:07:35 <cpressey> rain1: Nothing specific to the #haskell channel
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23:16:24 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E. Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77987&oldid=77844 * SoicBR * (+399)
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23:34:24 <esowiki> [[Muddle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77988&oldid=62048 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) Fix wikilink ([Text] -> [[Text]])
←2020-10-14 2020-10-15 2020-10-16→ ↑2020 ↑all