< 1602892966 9278 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tvcyknnwbjqioqmz JOIN :#esoteric < 1602893030 442382 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602893738 345220 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602893844 183592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-11-205.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602894425 9172 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1602894694 294824 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602896092 390248 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1602898051 176933 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602899425 160111 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1602899700 357441 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602899788 144742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602900330 316476 :spruit11!~unknown@86-82-44-193.fixed.kpn.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602903830 300772 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1602903837 706803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, this is ridiculous < 1602903844 886580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't connect inbound to my server at all < 1602903864 650538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I opened up a serial console (remotely) and telnetted /out/ of it < 1602903869 436256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to see if the networking worked < 1602903908 161215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what sort of issue would cause only outbound connections to work < 1602904192 643665 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602904200 821906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, that's a good sign < 1602904204 680396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was expecting a pingout < 1602904210 784674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the connection did close when I forcibly rebooted it < 1602904215 93767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I lost the connection to the serial console, too) < 1602904509 344190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, and back up < 1602904522 520470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just needed to find a rebootier sort of reboot :-D < 1602905685 190617 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1602907948 334490 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1602909273 413402 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602910888 612760 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602910999 212392 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602915686 547652 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602915712 895535 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23 < 1602918060 763391 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1602918079 315959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, it happened again, and now even properly rebooting isn't helping < 1602918092 995794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this connection to freenode is over IPv6 < 1602918102 51045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's just IPv4 that's broken? < 1602918111 309749 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org QUIT :Client Quit < 1602918149 956157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, just IPv4 it seems < 1602918775 794133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the connection to Freenode worked because it used IPv6, when I forced an IPv4 connection it wouldn't < 1602918956 416051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I hear IPv6 is the future. Maybe you're in the future? < 1602919101 238899 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, IPv6 is last-century technology < 1602919727 398088 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602920728 575473 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1602921095 330633 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602921985 177803 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1602922263 856542 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1602922563 157108 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602922946 920170 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1602922956 341915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPv4 connection, I think < 1602923124 405222 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure there's any easy way to tell < 1602923127 123057 :ais523|telnet!~ais523@nethack4.org QUIT :Client Quit < 1602923585 214063 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1602923997 734608 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602924475 763157 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1602926024 954154 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1602929207 723449 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602930091 720441 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@host-91-90-11-13.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602930440 331714 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602930978 902939 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1602932799 392822 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1602932905 405472 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602934386 730449 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602934780 128221 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1602935784 499497 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[073var14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77997&oldid=44843 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+48) 10What are var > 1602936220 790065 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[073var14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77998&oldid=77997 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+23) 10How? (Also I accidentally saved in the prev edit) > 1602936498 223644 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[073var14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=77999&oldid=77998 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+17) 10Linkify > 1602938625 334054 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[073var14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78000&oldid=77999 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+2) 10/* Hello, World! */ Make link point to non-redirect < 1602939791 947625 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric < 1602941619 203352 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602941636 553786 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1602941804 183757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1602944794 820900 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602946805 331244 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1602948884 421909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78001&oldid=70930 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-10) 10They say the "User:" prefix is mandatory... < 1602950122 192025 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.47.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602952097 695698 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602952557 551659 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602952621 828468 :hendursaga!~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/hendursaga JOIN :#esoteric > 1602954252 535992 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78002&oldid=78001 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+39) 10It does not have to necessarily a 10 by 10 grid. < 1602954832 944435 :adu!~arobbins@c-76-111-99-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu > 1602954882 478611 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78003&oldid=78002 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+1) 10I like the taste of commas < 1602955129 241745 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1602955221 433059 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1602955536 456257 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[073var14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78004&oldid=78000 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+34) 10Esotericness > 1602955650 961459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78005&oldid=78003 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-10) 10Userify > 1602956022 157635 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78006&oldid=78005 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+0) 10Heading + Golfed cat program > 1602956042 44488 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78007&oldid=78006 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+2) 10Oop > 1602956092 175573 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78008&oldid=78007 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (-4) 10Brackets are not needed < 1602956351 763970 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, fun with socat: socat TCP-LISTEN:4242,reuseaddr EXEC:'"socat TCP:localhost:4243 EXEC:\"\\\"sh -c \\\\\\\"echo from $SOCAT_PEERADDR; exec socat FD:0 FD:1\\\\\\\"\\\"\",fdin=1,nofork",fdout=0,nofork' < 1602956988 160463 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@host-91-90-11-13.soborka.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what it does? < 1602957073 679987 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1602957478 229250 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602957534 300505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It forwards a TCP connection with a twist. < 1602957675 170255 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that twist being? > 1602958366 235991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78009&oldid=78008 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+147) 10Truth-machine < 1602960072 905579 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602961728 5313 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wondering what the minimal combinator set is for a flat concatenative language, as in you can't form nested quotations of depth > 1. < 1602961745 890068 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need compose. you'd need apply. < 1602961822 887046 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :without a way to simulate a "second stack" by repeatedly quoting everything at the top of it (because you can't form a quotation that pushes quotations without a shim), you need something like `pick` or a whole-stack `rot` in order to be TC. < 1602964042 578094 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1602964622 246313 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1602965228 35602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in M:tG, I'm trying to understand the new rules for modal double-faced cards. which rule allows playing a modal double-faced card as a land with its back side up in first place? I don't see it in 711 or 116.2a, and 711.4a plus 711.9 seems to prohibit it. < 1602965435 821136 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, that does seem to be the case; maybe the rule writers made a mistake. < 1602965495 642651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: nah, there's probably some tricky rule combination hidden in there < 1602965500 881736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just can't see it yet < 1602965544 606392 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe; I don't see it either < 1602965578 329113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and the release notes does seem to say that you can play as a land < 1602965651 728967 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, clearly it is supposed to be allowed, although I don't know what rule allows it. < 1602965823 487065 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out how it interacts with effects like that of Shelldock Isle > 1602965829 416346 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:OsmineYT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78010&oldid=77530 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+82) 10 < 1602965832 203531 :FAKTOR7!~FAKTOR7@130.255.19.203 JOIN :#esoteric > 1602966351 583045 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Orby14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78011&oldid=51611 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+171) 10 > 1602966634 202121 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78012&oldid=77860 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+121) 10 < 1602968211 198976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I asked the MTG Salvation forum. the Wizards forum had a nice place to ask these kinds of rules theory questions, one that even Wizards employees frequented, but they shut that forum down. < 1602968751 93394 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they point me to https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/819228-radha-mdfc which says that the Comprehensive Rules are indeed very buggy > 1602968812 109176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78013&oldid=78012 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+199) 10By the way, I do not have discord either if you REALLY want to know... < 1602969044 648998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602969092 83222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : wondering what the minimal combinator set is for a flat concatenative language, as in you can't form nested quotations of depth > 1 ← you mean, they can't be created even at runtime, rather than simply being inexpressible in the source file? < 1602969136 924168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can create them at runtime, then you don't need many (I think 2 are enough if one of them is very complex) < 1602969148 444101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can't, then I think you might run into definitional problems < 1602969193 264752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 doesn't really have a concept of nested quotations, and is entirely flat in terms of its internal storage < 1602969207 474206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the definition of the 6 command is very complex and basically introduces nested quotations by "cheating" < 1602969237 490450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it scans a string for substrings with correctly matched "parentheses" < 1602969283 549322 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, there are many ways to cheat if you don't insist on combinators from ordinary combinator calculus < 1602969295 277434 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, nested quotations aren't allowed at runtime or in the source file. < 1602969365 324011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if you have one quotation and a function that compiles and evaluates the quoted program in fortran or basic, perhaps you can get away with it without having quotations inside the fortran or basic program. < 1602969370 489603 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basis I have now is dup, drop, swap, left, right, compose, apply, and pre-quoted versions of all of those. < 1602969396 571071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do left/right/compose work? < 1602969400 510263 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :left and right take the bottom of the stack and put it on top, and take the top of the stack and put it on the bottom. < 1602969409 236330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1602969419 74166 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so x y z ... n left -> n x y z ... < 1602969424 49443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced that's a combinator operation (although of course concatenative languages don't need to be based on combinators) < 1602969443 225472 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and x y z ... n right -> y z ... n x < 1602969457 847477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and compose is just Underload *, I take it < 1602969471 718094 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :compose behaves more like list concatenation if anything. < 1602969484 753580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so does Underload * < 1602969495 357205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm < 1602969561 514197 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of compose as "take two commands, "unquote them", and enquote their concatenation, and push that concatenation." < 1602969580 805404 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in quotation-speak, it's... [a] [b] compose -> [a b] < 1602969604 275624 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm borrowing semantics from equipage. < 1602969656 168592 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as for the combinatory stuff, yeah, the problem is I think you need _some way_ to access deeper levels within the stack. < 1602969677 608205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume there's no way for anything that isn't enclosed in exactly one pair of square brackets to get onto the stack < 1602969679 903845 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need something that reorders the _whole stack_ to get to any arbitrary element. < 1602969681 299560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps one of those small one-tape turing machines help < 1602969713 765257 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if I understand you correctly, yeah. you can't make a quotation that makes quotations, because anything in a quotation gets interpreted directly. < 1602969728 283453 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't form [[dup]] for example. < 1602969733 142994 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can form [dup]. < 1602969743 494081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't form dup either, at least not on the stack < 1602969756 942230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just [dup] or [dup dup] or whatever < 1602969759 42663 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct. all things are quoted, then apply unquotes them and adds them to the program. < 1602969773 345735 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an interpreter if you wanna play around. < 1602969855 612321 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://repl.it/repls/UpbeatScalyRoutes#main.py < 1602969885 488100 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, if you have a "palette" of quoted commands, you can write a quotation that _makes_ another quotation just by virtue of duplicating it, swapping it, etc. < 1602969932 19843 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e if you have a stack of [dup], [drop], [swap], [left], [right], [compose], [apply] and a quotation that selectively picked and grabbed these commands, you could form another quotation out of it. < 1602969940 491624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly offtopic, but "routes" is a terribly choice of word for a word-based URL, no matter how you pronounce it it's confusable with either "routs" or "roots" which are both real words < 1602969964 782777 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it couldn't be nested, but you could form sequences of quotations that "point" to eachother ala left and right. < 1602970014 874433 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is can you do something similar without having commands that affect the entire stack. < 1602970030 767902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: well, the hard part is just to avoid the PDAness of a single stack < 1602970038 915808 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. < 1602970052 625339 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :equipage gets around this via having `pick`. < 1602970080 914599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :.oO(and "router" is pronounced differently if it's for woodworking than if it's for computer networks) < 1602970101 478187 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oxcart gets around this by having a tape of stacks. wagon gets around it by having whole-stack effects. < 1602970122 998733 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and languages that allow runtime nesting of quotations can use this to simulate a secondary stack at-will. < 1602970124 723492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, because you can build arbitrary long quotations, the model we're working in is not actually a PDA < 1602970141 952537 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I don't know _what_ class it is.. < 1602970180 994378 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1602970184 770545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually… Underload is TC with just ():^! (you don't need ! either but we can handle it easily without quotations) < 1602970186 362940 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't exactly "slurp up" portions of the stack and re-order them, because applying the quotation you used to "slurp up" that portion of the stack will be _immediately applied_. < 1602970187 927751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't contain a < 1602970204 454882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that there must be a finite number of combinators that works, with no full-stack effects < 1602970218 215234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but it needs at least two levels of quotations, probably more < 1602970219 895396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a ():^! program can only form a finite number of different stack elements during its lifetime, so you could just make them all combinators < 1602970222 759863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :individually < 1602970237 851188 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what b_jonas said. you need the ability to double-nest quotations. < 1602970259 171813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you allow more complicated combinators as built-ins, then you could encode a small turing-machine with exactly two levels < 1602970260 18474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I mean, say your program contains ((:^):), you just add ((:^):) and (:^) as combinators < 1602970266 202252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but one level is just terrible < 1602970275 623930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, is one level enough really? hmm < 1602970288 265356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1602970291 873869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there is no nesting, because your combinators are [pushdupapplytwice] and [dupapply] < 1602970317 879505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is right, a single level of nesting is enough < 1602970348 95101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, how is this not just a PDA though? it doesn't have * < 1602970373 105683 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your combinators are [[dup apply] dup] and [dup apply]? < 1602970378 98936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, two stacks, one is program, one is stack < 1602970383 6797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: right < 1602970388 304121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that example < 1602970413 413840 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1602970427 253985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I mean is, we can get a universal turing machine, translate it to the ~:!()^ subset of Underload < 1602970439 473174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then take every single quotation inside the program, at any nesting level, and make it a combinator of its own < 1602970470 295295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have a (very complex) combinator set that implements a TC concatenative language without quoting, full-tape effects, or cheating < 1602970507 61329 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how isn't that cheating, though? you still have two layers of nesting, you just represent them as a single command. < 1602970535 129151 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :moreover how are you getting rid of garbage? < 1602970546 11881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this is basically just https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Subtyping_Machine < 1602970550 586267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: you use the ! combinator to get rid of garbage < 1602970562 537038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the subset without !, garbage is removed by executing it in a context where all the commands end up cancelling each other out < 1602970589 774070 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your combinator set is apply, dup, [dup apply], [[dup apply] dup]? < 1602970602 921892 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it just those three. < 1602970625 5860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: well, that was just a random example < 1602970637 702652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually if you allow any built-in combinators, then it's even simpler than the Underload construction, because you don't need to use : at all, instead just have combinators that push parenthesized list of combinators such that if you tried to expand them to underload you'd get cyclically listed and so infinite source code < 1602970666 466592 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still consider this cheating because you're able to build larger nested structures, only they're in the form of a single command. < 1602970678 273787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only need ~! to pick an element from a parenthisized list of combinators, < 1602970723 486025 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :either pick the element from a list indexed by states when the head is moving to the left, or from a list indenex by symbols when the head is moving to the right < 1602970748 820588 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :using ^ !!...! ~!~!...~! to keep just one element from a list < 1602970758 702489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there are degenerate cases that work, e.g. you have an imperative stack based language that isn't concatenative, and make it concatenative by having a command that looks at the top stack element as a program and lower stack elements as the stack it operates on, then pushes itself back onto the program < 1602970761 470917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then do nothing to execute that one combinator < 1602970799 894396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this is basically just the universal construction for minimalizing any number of combinators down to two < 1602970813 157029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your combinators are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. < 1602970830 332532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you minimalize them to (~)(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(!!!!!!!) and ^ < 1602970849 85218 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, "select any set of combinators, re-order them, compose, done" < 1602970919 509244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the number of ! is one more than the the number of preceding quotations, so if you do the monster combinator followed by ^ twice, you get a ! effect; the monster combinator + ! obviously gives you (~) and thus ~, and with the monster combinator, ~ and !, you can get any of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) < 1602970942 677601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm. that's not how I was thinking of it, but maybe < 1602970962 256062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, this has a lot of intermediate combinators < 1602970977 834098 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a few. I think the point is simplifying from the data side, not the program side. < 1602970992 449080 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I can form all lists with the `quote` and `compose` operator. < 1602970996 794648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think about SK combinator calculus, there are basically five combinator families involved: K, K1, S, S1, S2 (K1, S1, S2 are parameterized by the argument that was curried into them) < 1602971019 929755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't use `quote` in a language like this < 1602971029 336653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1602971094 825063 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm back to thinking you need arbitrary stack effects. < 1602971115 933100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think about it this way, with a system of unparametrized stack-based combinators. That view is relevant for Consumer Society and its brother language, but I always thought of it as just the special case of implementing a turing-machine, and interfacing that with the full language on entry and exit < 1602971118 960997 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need them unless you're willing to go with a command set that can push quotations. < 1602971133 107144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one-tape turing machine < 1602971187 484653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or really any two-stack finite control machine, it doesn't have to move symbols one to one < 1602971516 644968 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way there needs to be some kind of nesting. < 1602971523 437403 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :of levels > 1. < 1602971587 550872 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: no, I think ais523 is right, one level of nesting, namely predetermined lists of combinators, is enough to implement a two-stack machine < 1602971622 563324 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but those lists of combinators need to include arbitrary stack effects, unless I'm missing something. < 1602971676 482130 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the underload two-command minimization, for example, can construct a concatenation of two quotations. < 1602971699 217922 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you already have them on the stack, you just need to drop the ones you don't care about and concatenate the ones you do. < 1602971768 366195 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :either there's an upper bound for the amount of nesting you do or you need arbitrary nesting. a third option is treating the stack like a tape. < 1602971779 184512 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that upper bound is. < 1602971893 332955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best way to think about it is that the stack + program basically are a tape already < 1602971964 959784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can view a Turing machine like that; represent the left of the tape as the stack, the state of the Turing machine as a special element on top of the stack, and the tape head and elements to its right as commands < 1602971985 565166 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so assume that you only have dup, drop, swap, compose and apply, along with single-quoted versions of all of those. would that be enough? < 1602972024 101396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each command looks at the top two stack elements, modifies or pops them if necessary, then "executes" an appropriate number of commands to add elements to its right < 1602972030 53543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the new tape headd < 1602972055 707797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether it's possible to build something like this out of :!~*^ < 1602972078 531855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and their single-quoted versions < 1602972101 390273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may come down to the old issue of "where do you store the lookup table?" which is often an issue in proving simple languages TC < 1602972110 669321 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is nearly always a lookup table, or some sort of equivalent, somewhere < 1602972134 563557 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely that issue. in the TM construction in the article you need at least 3 levels of nesting, I think. < 1602972196 282611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can probably store it in the top stack element, though, or maybe interspersed between adjacent stack elements < 1602972258 279857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, ooh, I get what the problem is: the problem is that you have no way to construct the single-quoted versions at runtime < 1602972262 745613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to copy them around < 1602972274 579567 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. < 1602972295 555954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have some way to construct the single-quoted versions in terms of the unquoted versions then you're good, and that is what the lookup table is needed for < 1602972331 984633 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you were to build a quotation that builds quotations, you'd need to select from an already given palette. then you'd build something that's just a quoted sequence of [dup drop swap left right ...] etc commands that builds another quotation, and then applies it. < 1602972333 997022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the problem here is that there is more than one single-quoted combinator, but you can't store a single-quoted combinator inside a list < 1602972340 636792 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. < 1602972342 125994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus they need to be stored "loose" on the stack < 1602972347 458776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ~ doesn't go deep enough to get past all of them < 1602972352 33493 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :eeeexactly. < 1602972377 487898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dup, drop, compose, apply, rotate top 6 elements, and single-quoted versions of all those should be enough, I believe < 1602972389 966881 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh. < 1602972395 317986 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's interesting. < 1602972395 557728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, probably needs to be top 7 < 1602972410 970681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe top 6 is enough < 1602972438 916818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the only issue is juggling your single-quoted combinators on the stack, so you need enough juggling power to juggle past them and operate on the data underneath < 1602972440 186715 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably need top7 because you still need the currently active combinator. < 1602972444 76652 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1602972459 222065 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what happens when you try to get at the data under that. < 1602972463 258475 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the data under that. < 1602972477 936120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :top 7 is enough to juggle 5 combinators and 2 pieces of data < 1602972493 316584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 5 combinators, plus a duplicate of one of the combinators, plus 1 piece of data < 1602972555 491747 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there would be some cases where you some operations wouldn't be possible that'd be required. I don't know what a lookup table would look like apart from a sequence of quotations that point to eachother. < 1602972564 556739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this basically gives you all of {dup drop compose apply swap} because none of those take more than two arguments, and {push duplicate of single-quoted combinator} because you can just copy one of them and juggle it into place < 1602972567 145963 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :relative to their position on the stack. < 1602972578 4748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can build a swap out of a rotate by dupping a bunch, rotating, and dropping the duplicates) < 1602972605 714589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lookup table is literally just [dup][drop][compose][apply][rotate] on top of the stack, as 5 loose elements < 1602972614 131850 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1602972624 539771 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I misspoke: a TM's lookup table. < 1602972624 539817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you leave it there the entire program execution, except temporarily to operate on the elements beneath it < 1602972644 879709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a TM's lookup table is the (color, state) → (color, state, movement) map < 1602972656 801225 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but forming that map. < 1602972661 246207 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :within this language. < 1602972712 774111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd use enum values like !!!!!!!~!~!~!~!~!~! to store colors and states < 1602972778 188786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, even better, you use a construction where a color/state is just !!!…!!!!^ and the element that's executed contains the remanining ! to get rid of the elements that weren't popped or executed < 1602972815 15972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way it composes easily, a color can be, say, ! or !! or !!!, a state can be some multiple of !!! followed by ^ < 1602972828 880018 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you preserve the rest of the table? you need to make a state transition more than once. < 1602972830 306113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, composing color with state gives you the appropriate accessor for the lookup table < 1602972841 529479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simulated nested quoting < 1602972850 813617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're juggling single-quoted combinators < 1602972860 729579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can effectively produce a nested list by writing the appropriate list of juggling commands < 1602972879 996513 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiiinteresting. < 1602972880 456992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you can't write [[dup swap][apply rotate]] directly, but you can create a command that produces the elements [dup swap][apply rotate] when executed < 1602972924 867850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :beacuse you just need to write the list of commands that juggles your combinators appropriately to produce those two elements, and that list of commands is flat < 1602972925 668000 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you apply the current color to the table to get a quotation that you can apply to do the state transition, which constructs the state table _again_. < 1602972932 88531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1602972936 659429 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :while also performing the actions on the tape. < 1602972942 785824 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is absolutely brilliant. < 1602972947 278215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this point it's basically just standard Underload behaviour, except that there is no way to implement a < 1602972954 204490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't need a to write a Turing machine < 1602972967 278303 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was on the tip of my tongue for the past 5 days lmao. < 1602973033 132825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602973092 207459 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the core command set is just {dup drop swap compose apply rot7} and quoted versions, leading to a total of 12 commands. < 1602973094 413318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602973100 319660 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the core command set is just {dup drop swap compose apply rot7} and quoted versions, leading to a total of 12 commands. < 1602973103 572947 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoot, sorry. < 1602973161 453307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: right now I'm trying to figure out what happens if I have Vastvood Fortification exiled to Isochron Scepter, and I try to cast the back side as a spell without paying its mana cost. normally you can't cast lands because they don't have a mana cost so you can't pay the cost, Dryad Arbor has a mana cost but 305.9 specifically forbids it, and abilities that instruct to cast without mana cost are < 1602973167 796711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :carefully phrased as "play" instead of "cast" when a land could be used, in which case 601.1a makes it so you'll play it. < 1602973174 451725 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the help ais523. < 1602973513 920757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :711.7 (a rule that doesn't even normally work until future sets are released because the back face never has mana cost) says I can choose the back face, nothing seem to prohibit it, and there's now rule 111.11 that says what happens when the back face up copy resolves. < 1602973519 3658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the copy of the back face really < 1602973794 191817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do we happen to know what are the smallest two-stack finite control machines, as opposed to the smallest from the more restricted class of Turing machines? < 1602973809 669223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you looked at that for StackFlow < 1602974552 527665 :asie!~asie@asie.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1602974635 231430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-22.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"color" in a Turing machine as tape symbols? that would be weird < 1602975271 200009 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that you can't cast the back face, since it is a land, it would seem. < 1602975322 750691 :asie!~asie@asie.pl PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1602975533 449339 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1602976022 223403 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1602976051 758584 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1602976139 60731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1602976725 421202 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1602977320 652799 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1602978025 683009 :dcristofani!~dcristofa@69-71-183-170.mammothnetworks.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1602979156 105552 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MangularJS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78014&oldid=75209 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Hello, World! */ Fix example to work properly < 1602979174 847719 :tromp!~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection