> 1603929869 313421 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78237&oldid=78201 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* M */ Add osminee's language minasm
> 1603932571 557877 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Y5n 5*  10New user account
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> 1603933671 212650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Not applicable 5*  10New user account
> 1603933927 147692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78238&oldid=78191 5* 03Not applicable 5* (+121) 10
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< 1603973201 727926 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"<ais523> I'm not sure I've seen higher-degree bounded automata in the wild" => they don't come up often in theory because PSPACE covers a lot of things, and if you go above, in practical cases there's usually some space vs time tradeoff that does allow you to use fewer memory with excessive runtime. 
< 1603973344 657952 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do at least have problems designed to require a large amount of memory for small input size, in the practical cryptographics sense, which is used to hash passwords such that if the hased version is stolen the attacker can't compute dictionary attacks much faster on expensive parallel GPU array hardware than you can on your cheap computer,
< 1603973345 155754 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the GPU array won't have the required amount of RAM.
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< 1603973888 842512 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let me get back to your question from yesterday and try to give specific answers. for windows cmd, for the arguments of the program, as far as I know, the punctuations !#$'*+,-./:;=?@[]_`{}~ are safe anywhere, but the rest are a bit ugly and hard to quote. I believe to quote any ascii printable string, you put a backslash before any
< 1603973889 349612 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :backslash or double quote, replace % with the four characters "^%" , and then put double quotes around the whole arguments. 
< 1603973917 848420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, ^ is safe in quotes on Windows?
< 1603973967 570941 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the double quotes hold the argument together so it's not split on words, as well as removes the special meaning of &^()<>| , and of course you have to escape the double quote and backslash themselves, BUT % is still special inside double quotes and you can't escape it with a backslash
< 1603973976 256441 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I believe it is
< 1603974004 742445 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ugly part is that % can't be protected by double quotes, and space can't be escaped by a circumflex
< 1603974025 623193 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this comes from how windows passes only a single command-line argument string at some point, and it's split later
< 1603974073 833437 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you call the system function from C or perl or python, you have to surround the program path with double quotes and THEN put a second double quote at the very beginning of the command line. I don't know why, it just works that way.
< 1603974388 929387 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on unix/POSIX sh, the ascii punctuation %+,-./:=@^]_}~ are safe in arguments; but note that some of these aren't safe in the program name itself, because ^ can start history expansion, = can assign env-vars, % can do job control, and there are a lot of built-in command names, so escaping special program names is another matter; then ! is safe
< 1603974389 442642 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except sometimes in interactive shells, but there are settings that make them safe even in interactive shells; { is safe in sh but if you start bash as bash rather than sh then it enables the brace expansion setting by default and then it's unsafe; and the rest "#$&'()*;<>?[\`| you should basically always espcae with double quotes or single quotes
< 1603974389 933837 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or backslashes, though there are contexts when they're safe
< 1603974447 400730 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, I'm wrong
< 1603974452 702600 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ is also unsafe in a lot of paces
< 1603974458 909054 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to escape ~ in posix shells too
< 1603974474 838648 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so %+,-./:=@]^_} are safe in posix shells or bash
< 1603974528 693350 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those characters are also safe in command-line arguments in makefiles, though again in command name position they can have special meanings
< 1603974604 482867 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, even though I recommend you to double-quote everything, because the rules are saner that way, if you really don't want to quote anything, then ascii letters and digits and the punctuations +,-./:=@]_} are safe on both cmd and sh and bash,
< 1603974619 448195 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as I explained yesterday, you shouldn't interpret that as "safe everywhere", because there's no such thing
< 1603974640 982734 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all this is only as far as I understand and with no warranty
< 1603974689 676197 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna build a shell that's more rstrictive than posix
< 1603974708 868916 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: try zsh
< 1603974724 848822 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though now I'll have to check when exactly ^ can trigger history expansion in bash
< 1603974734 847853 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using zsh
< 1603974736 169121 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :love it
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> 1603975029 487974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asparagus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78239 5* 03Not applicable 5* (+637) 10created, is working on an interpreter, and i dont think anybody will find this page so i think it is safe to keep it here for now dont know where to put it though blah blah blah
< 1603975036 745643 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok I have officially no clue when ! and ^ are recognized as history expansion, even after reading the manpage. I only know how to turn history expansion off, and that it's off by default in non-interactive shelsl
< 1603975057 508302 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.204.164 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1603975075 424265 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course any of this can be false if you give bash enough nonstandard settings earlier in the file, but luckily bashrc and similar initialization files aren't read in a non-interactive session
> 1603975077 559504 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Asparagus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78240 5* 03Not applicable 5* (+34) 10Created page with "uhh how do i mark a page as a stub"
< 1603975102 626882 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because apparently you can set the history expansion trigger character to anything, it needn't be !
> 1603975105 563534 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Asparagus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78241&oldid=78240 5* 03Not applicable 5* (+104) 10
> 1603975333 564509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Asparagus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78242&oldid=78241 5* 03Ais523 5* (+201) 10how to mark a page as a stub
< 1603975397 681270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I think most of zsh's best-known features are also available in bash nowadays (often not by default, though); are there lesser-known advantages?
< 1603975440 518367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: also I'm pretty sure that ! is one of the most dangerous characters in existence to bash, not only can it trigger history expansion, it's also hard to escape
< 1603975516 275845 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's my opinion too, though someone on this channel did mention some file expansion feature they used in zsh that's indeed not in bash, I think expanding a list of non-directory files, and the equivalent of @(a{137..99999}b) which expands to any file with a then a decimal number with no leading zeroes that is 137 or more then b.
< 1603975609 491034 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if someone wants to use those, I can see there may be some use, but I for one don't think zsh is worth for me to learn, so I'm sticking bash for simpler stuff, and perl or python etc for more complex cases. mostly because I want to use programs with windows-native interfaces on windows, not ones that try to sort of pretend that you're in a
< 1603975609 970184 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :half-assed POSIX system on which many features are broken.
< 1603975714 361082 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean what's the fucking point of pretending to be on a POSIX system if you're on an operating system where write doesn't immediately update the file's mtime? there are so many glaring holes that I'd rather port some of my scripts to exactly two systems, native windows and unix-like systems, than try to use the half-assed compatibility stuff
< 1603975734 513704 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because most of my scripts only have to run on one of those.
< 1603976146 724369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use bash on Windows, only because cmd and command.com were both terrible
< 1603976161 556505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wanted something that was actually usable as a shell
< 1603976238 536577 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they are terrible, so I write a lot of things as perl or python scripts when they'd be simple shell one-liners in unix
< 1603976355 198320 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do that even for simple loops that would technically be possible to write in cmd
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> 1603977884 26255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Quine (programming language)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78243&oldid=73700 5* 03Not applicable 5* (+0) 10fixed speleng
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< 1603979352 275901 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, so apparently I'm allowed to have an empty array where the type of the members of the arrays is an enum with no variants, but I'm not allowed to construct an empty array whose member type is too huge. the two types are uninhabited in different ways according to the compiler.
< 1603979453 683785 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not allowed to even std::mem::size_of the latter empty array
< 1603979475 465801 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, that's for rust
< 1603980297 53270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone here have opinions on forward-confirmed reverse DNS (as an email filtering mechanism)?
< 1603980306 956480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering adding it to my mailserver, but am worried about false positives
< 1603980666 730100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, it fails on outlook.com (which has a ridiculous configuration), that's a large enough mail provider that it probably can't be turned on
< 1603980898 629694 :Arcorann_!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net NICK :Arcorann
< 1603980948 626127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame Microsoft for ruining everything for everyone again :-(
< 1603980992 599113 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(among others)
< 1603981067 730984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be interesting to see a complete list of major email providers for which it fails; I suspect it's more likely to succeed for minor email providers than major email providers
< 1603981079 447750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gmail and Yahoo! mail both pass it, those were easy enought to check
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> 1603982387 797632 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Coeus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78244&oldid=77790 5* 03Tetrapyronia 5* (+0) 10
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> 1603984360 235229 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Coeus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78245 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+313) 10Created page with "I decided to make discussion because no one has made it. -- ~~~~ <s>also check [[minasm]]</s> -- ~~~~"
> 1603984371 853812 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Coeus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78246&oldid=78245 5* 03OsmineYT 5* (+1) 10
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< 1603986290 182748 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23
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> 1603987396 563032 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:ItalicTitle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78247&oldid=78224 5* 03SunnyMoon 5* (+1) 10Oh
< 1603989057 71850 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1603989611 264063 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ktndoftqtmycfxps QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1603989706 470676 :pikhq!sid394595@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cegrbsleguxxzcix JOIN :#esoteric
< 1603989926 220892 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1603994599 199404 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1603995404 895323 :orbitaldecay!d13a8164@209.58.129.100 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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< 1603996490 553504 :t20kdc!~20kdc@cpc139384-aztw33-2-0-cust220.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1603998693 69746 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye!
< 1603998871 49359 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@host-91-90-11-13.soborka.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1603998934 676299 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1603999557 652124 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
< 1603999943 836228 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1604000164 8298 :diverger!~div@titan.pathogen.is QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1604004544 815614 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1604004592 170443 :delta23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com QUIT :Disconnected by services
< 1604004595 410013 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@cpe-24-208-148-153.insight.res.rr.com NICK :delta23
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< 1604008966 91555 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? chemicals
< 1604008969 122545 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :chemicals? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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< 1604011550 835166 :Arcorann!~awych@121-200-5-186.79c805.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1604013958 331321 :iscordian[m]!discordi1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vspfpkckpidjxomw NICK :Discordian[m]
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> 1604014411 292416 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Asparagus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78248&oldid=78239 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+35) 10Category a
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