00:01:19 <esowiki> [[Dotcomma]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78271 * Redwolf10105 * (+7191) Created page (copied from Github repo)
00:02:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78272&oldid=78259 * Redwolf10105 * (+15)
00:14:03 <delta23> if there was a variant of brainfuck with only
00:14:19 <delta23> but with the difference that programs could be infinitely long
00:14:32 <delta23> would that make it turing complete?
00:16:56 <Arcorann> Doubtful, since you've removed all the commands that depend on the state of memory
00:17:45 <delta23> shouldn't it be possible to implement conditionals based on these? the program would be really large if possible..
00:18:32 <delta23> ie simulating a turing machine using the above and simulating conditional flow
00:19:30 <Arcorann> Question still stands: what would the conditionals depend on
00:20:20 <delta23> i've been trying to figure out if it's possible to do that without looping/explicit conditionals
00:25:21 <delta23> i know that the above instructions are at least as powerful as a linear bounded automata if said infinite program repeats infinitely(ie within a infinite loop)
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01:39:20 <delta23> it seems somebody has done something similar b4
01:42:00 <delta23> https://github.com/ebuswell/noneleatic (they needed to add some more functionality and also self-modification to get it to be turing complete)
02:04:42 <imode> tends to be the case unless you have explicit conditionals.
02:09:38 <zzo38> What if you add a catch block for value out of range?
02:24:26 <int-e> tromp: hmm, not a hard one though (re: ponder)
02:34:12 <int-e> I think I prefer the ones that benefit from a bit of programming.
02:41:29 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0
02:41:32 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0
02:46:37 <shachaf> I guess it's time to vote.
02:56:36 <zzo38> Do you like my idea of "Malaclypse the Younger" Un-card? (This card makes all intervening if clauses true, including keyword abilities (such as evolve).)
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03:56:18 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78273&oldid=78262 * Tetrapyronia * (+63) Added Waduzitdo
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04:55:07 <zzo38> Does any pinball game have progressive difficulty for extra balls?
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08:11:08 <tromp> int-e: yes, easy but cute. even the bonus is easy,
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13:01:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78274&oldid=78270 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+247) /* Definition of [ and ] */ Will clarify in article
13:02:26 <esowiki> [[Queuenanimous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78275&oldid=74923 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Commands */ Clarify
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13:20:28 <rain1> https://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/November2020.html i dont understand. what list of numbers do you start with?
13:32:07 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1218.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:32:44 <rain1> i dont think i can do this ponder - i had a look at easier cases like 7 and 127 but i kinda dont understand what to do
13:33:02 <int-e> rain1: so ponder it
13:33:55 <int-e> also don't talk about it too much, you might spoil things
13:39:03 <rain1> is there a place i can ask about this without spoiling?
13:43:29 <int-e> I don't really know... get a friend interested, talk to them in private :P
13:48:51 <b_jonas> or you could wait a month and then ask here when the challenge isn't so fresh
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13:50:04 <b_jonas> or perhaps look for one of these web-based message boards with their newfangled HTML technology, they tend to be more structured than IRC so it's easier to hide a spoiler such that people who don't want to read it yet won't accidentally see it
13:50:18 <int-e> This one isn't really all that amenable to hints that aren't spoilers. Generic problem solving advice applies, of course... work forward, work backwards, try to show that it can't be done to get ideas, sleep on it, blah.
13:50:42 <b_jonas> (youngsters and their formatted text and bulky servers that archive everything...)
13:51:15 <int-e> sure we can do rot13 a month from now
13:52:04 <rain1> jul pna'g lbh whfg fgneg jvgu gur gnetrg ahzore va lbhe yvfg?
13:52:15 <int-e> Arcorann: this one has a small but relevant competetive component
13:53:40 <int-e> > 2^31 - 1 > 1000000000 -- ebg13 jbexf ernyyl jryy sbe guvf
13:54:47 <rain1> oh that clarifies the meaning of "remaining number" for me
14:00:47 <Arcorann> ebg13 jbexf ernyyl jryy sbe guvf <-- http://rot8000.com/Index
14:05:40 <rain1> would someone check my solution please?
14:06:16 <rain1> Arcorann, is that chinese?
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14:12:05 <Arcorann> I don't mind checking your solution
14:12:42 <fizzie> Depends on what you put in. But most of the BMP is the CJK unified ideographs (4E00-9FFF), so that's quite likely to be where you land in.
14:13:10 <b_jonas> yeah, pastebins work too, put the spoiler in a pasted page, the non-spoiler part with a link in irc
14:38:23 <b_jonas> eval "$(cat somefile)" instead of source somefile . gets today's useless use of cat award.
14:40:02 <int-e> Is it completely useless? If `somefile` is a pipe special file this ensures that EOF is reached before evaluation starts ;)
14:40:28 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, I think it's worse than useless
14:40:43 <b_jonas> as in it might break in some case
14:40:54 <b_jonas> but I don't know any case when it would actually break
14:40:58 <int-e> I'm just looking for a semantic difference and pretend it's a feature.
14:41:36 <int-e> if you're fresh out of PIDs or root file system, then the `cat` invocation may fail.
14:41:53 <b_jonas> int-e: let's say it's a performance difference: we're no longer in the DOS age where the shell has to keep re-reading the same sector of the batch file before each command just to save memory
14:42:17 <b_jonas> but then source with bash doesn't do that anymore, it has proper buffers behind it
14:42:32 <b_jonas> so it does the optimization better than requiring to read the whole file at once
14:43:04 <int-e> to be clear, I'd write `source somefile` or `. somefile` under most circumstances.
14:43:09 <b_jonas> I guess they differ in how they treat the positional parameters $@
14:43:39 <int-e> but that's not stopping me from finding a narrow use for the cat thing :P
14:44:09 <int-e> (Especially since I recently saw a whole script wrapped in a subshell for a similar purpose)
14:44:37 <int-e> Namely, here: https://get-ghcup.haskell.org/
14:45:14 <b_jonas> normally I'd say that eval "$(cat somefile)" is worse because if something fails, the backtrace won't be able to show the correct filename and line number into the source code, but for the shell this doesn't actually apply, it doesn't show filenames and line numbers anyway I think
14:45:29 * int-e notes the channel name.
14:45:43 <b_jonas> int-e: how about, it's easy to change from cat to zcat to transparently execute possibly compressed source files?
14:45:47 * int-e rejects all notions of utility.
14:46:14 <int-e> generalizing to zcat is cute too
14:46:32 <int-e> though I expect . <(zcat file) to work.
14:47:46 <b_jonas> well ok, but that pipe substitution is a "new" feature (in that I started to write scripts in bash before bash 2, back when it didn't even have the ${foo/bar/qux} substring substitution... I'm old)
14:47:59 <b_jonas> so perhaps the eval was written before that existed
14:48:22 <int-e> The pipe substitution is the best thing bash ever stole from zsh.
14:48:45 <int-e> (At least that's where I think I saw it first.)
14:49:15 <int-e> I'm using it *a lot*.
14:49:17 <b_jonas> isn't the {1..20} numeric brace thing the best thing bash ever stole from zsh?
14:49:49 <int-e> stuff like comm -12 <(... | sort) <(... | sort)
14:50:10 <int-e> But I'm using the {01..20} thing much less.
14:52:34 <b_jonas> I'm using the brace numerics a lot when I move photos to category directories after I copy them from the memory card of the camera, since I generally have contiguous sequences of more than two photos that I took at the same location and that go into the same category
14:53:19 <b_jonas> so it's like mv -vi tmp/P11901{08..13}.JPG bp/ferenc/
14:53:56 <int-e> It's useful, it just feels comparatively mundane.
14:54:04 <b_jonas> hmm, now I actually have to look up if I have a P11901{08..13} and which category they're in
14:55:39 <b_jonas> not yet, that number is in the future apparently
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15:36:37 <fizzie> I do, and they're a subset of the source images of a panorama (p1190107-114.jpg) taken from https://www.espoo.fi/en-us/housing_and_environment/Streets_and_Transport/Pedestrian_and_bicycle_traffic/Espoos_Waterfront_Walkway back in 2013.
15:37:42 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/tmp/p1190107-114.jpg
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15:52:48 <rain1> are there other ponders that you recommend?
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16:26:44 <b_jonas> rain1: it's not from that series, but there's always the mind bug https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08.html#llj that we tried to optimize last year, and I should probably eventually get back to it, but I realized that the method that I wanted to use wouldn't quite work, so I'll have to figure out what exactly to do
16:38:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hiromi-mi * New user account
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16:48:36 <rain1> whew it looks tough for me
16:57:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78276&oldid=78265 * Hiromi-mi * (+145) /* Introductions */
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16:59:41 <limbo_> is this an occult channel
17:00:05 <myname> have a look at the topic
17:00:26 <esowiki> [[Waduzitdo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78277&oldid=63151 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category languages
17:00:31 <HackEso> limbo_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
17:04:04 <limbo_> um im not a programmer
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17:11:58 <HackEso> tea:Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean.
17:12:27 <myname> no, the ocean is now obviously a giant cup of tee
17:37:38 <b_jonas> wait, it has to be in a silver alambic? so that's what I was doing wrong!
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22:09:35 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78278&oldid=78273 * Tetrapyronia * (+39) Added Numobin
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