←2020-11-12 2020-11-13 2020-11-14→ ↑2020 ↑all
00:16:26 <zzo38> If you are making hashcash, I think that the padding of SHA1 only needs to be implemented once unless the length changes, and maybe some other stuff too I don't know. Since, it requires calculating the hash many times until enough first few bits are all zero.
00:18:03 <zzo38> (I also had a idea of a variant, which uses "timestamp:version:resource:bits:random", where the timestamp is preceded by its length, and there is no counter field (it is not needed since the random field can be used). It uses only base36 and base64, and a line feed must be appended when calculating the hash.
00:51:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78545&oldid=72350 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Functions */ Essential for looping
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09:41:25 <moony> TODO: bug ais523 about feather on dec 14th or afterward (it's 10 year anniversary on the wiki)
10:35:25 <esowiki> [[Election 2020]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78546 * Hakerh400 * (+2424) +[[Election 2020]]
10:35:28 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78547&oldid=77372 * Hakerh400 * (+20) +[[Election 2020]]
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12:50:06 <int-e> "the chess any% world record speed run"
12:59:51 <myname> wat
13:02:08 <Arcorann> Someone TASed a chess game to get a fool's mate once
13:02:49 <Arcorann> *5-move mate --> http://tasvideos.org/2677S.html
13:03:45 <Arcorann> *3-move mate
13:04:59 <fizzie> int-e: Takes damage to save time?
13:06:38 <fizzie> (No major glitches?)
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13:09:59 <int-e> It was more or less a quote from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYP3FL7mDX8 ...I found it funny :)
13:10:27 <fizzie> I heard if you're playing black, there's a frame-perfect trick you can do that lets you move two pieces at once.
13:14:08 <int-e> does it involve any opportunistic toilet breaks?
13:19:13 <esowiki> [[NestFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78548&oldid=78544 * Someguy004 * (+344) /* Examples */
13:48:07 <b_jonas> int-e: is that a two-player one, or one versus the computer?\
13:49:40 <b_jonas> a one-player one. I See.
13:50:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that castling?
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15:05:53 <esowiki> [[NestFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78549&oldid=78548 * Someguy004 * (+87)
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15:16:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78550&oldid=78505 * Tetrapyronia * (+153)
15:16:45 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78551&oldid=78498 * Tetrapyronia * (+52)
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16:35:32 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78552&oldid=78475 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+127) /* Languages */ bfos
16:57:50 <esowiki> [[Bfos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78553&oldid=78538 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+782) Specify commands\
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17:58:51 <int-e> b_jonas: well, the video is making a joke about an actual two-player match that happened
18:00:35 <int-e> (From that odd pogchamps event where they pitted high profile streamers against each other.)
18:02:49 <int-e> Oh, Apple is fighting the good fight and adding ads to their... mobile phone settings menu?
18:03:57 <imode> among other things.
18:04:07 <imode> like crippling your machine if you don't send them updates on what you're doing.
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18:08:10 <int-e> And crippling your machine when you do send them updates on what you're doing? (They had an OCSP server outage that caused non-Apple apps to fail to start)
18:08:39 <imode> that's what I'm referring to.
18:09:10 <int-e> Hmm, but it's logically the opposite :P
18:09:49 <imode> how do you live so well with a log jam in your ass.
18:10:21 <int-e> so many assumptions
18:12:35 * int-e is pondering how this happened... but in the mobile phone case, the system started out as stupid and inflexible and closed... and the vendor platforms that we have now are still more open than the things of the past. So we "just" missed the opportunity for the revolution to demand and seize complete control of the smartphones when they were new.
18:18:19 <b_jonas> int-e: right. and they even managed to get my relatives to keep complaining that I should get a smartphone, and trying to explain to me in very reasonable ways why it would be good for my own sake if I got a smartphone, and how it would solve the very problems that I'm complaining about (but forgetting about the problems that it would cause)
18:18:56 <int-e> imode: the problem is really that both variants make sense; one is a form of nudging, the other is a weird accident in an otherwise invisible mechanism.
18:19:19 <imode> the fact that it's in place in the first place is an unmitigated disaster.
18:19:57 <int-e> But it's for your own security!
18:20:17 <int-e> b_jonas: Hmm. I'm only hearing that they're convenient, not that they solve any actual problems.
18:20:53 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm talking about my relatives. they know me and what I need and what they have to tell me, they can tailor what they say to my individual problems
18:21:04 <int-e> Sure.
18:21:04 <b_jonas> I'm not talking about the advertisments
18:21:24 <b_jonas> advertisments invent problems for whatever they want to sell
18:21:34 <b_jonas> problems that you didn't even know you had
18:21:49 <int-e> "don't worry about us, all we want is your attention"
18:22:02 <b_jonas> admittedly they do use smartphones, so it's at least preaching what they practice
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18:22:39 <b_jonas> as in, they're talking into a cellphone when they explain why I should get one
18:23:05 <b_jonas> and I'm sitting in front of a 26 inch monitor when I explain to them why I don't want one
18:25:18 <imode> two years ago I gave into the smartphone thing. since then, I've had to deal with the god damn things breaking all the time. my family, being used to flip phones that were nigh-indestructible, broke everything. screens, buttons, etc.
18:25:29 <imode> bought 'em CAT S61s.
18:25:41 <imode> now the only thing I worry about is their privacy.
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19:00:41 <esowiki> [[NestFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78554&oldid=78549 * Someguy004 * (+1) /* Examples */
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19:36:22 <esowiki> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78555&oldid=69733 * Rdococ * (-773) Blanked the page
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22:00:12 <esowiki> [[Fi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78556&oldid=75377 * Rdococ * (-873) Blanked the page
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22:38:03 <int-e> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/technology/no-software-glitches-are-not-affecting-vote-counts.html ... 'The problem, election security experts and state officials concluded, was that an election worker had configured ballot scanners and reporting systems with slightly different versions of the ballot, which meant some results did not line up with the right candidate when officials loaded them...
22:38:09 <int-e> ...into the system.'
22:38:20 <int-e> This irritates me slightly, why are there different versions of the ballot?
22:40:23 <int-e> Hmm, maybe they had a testrun. https://eu.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/06/antrim-county-vote-glitch-software-update/6194745002/ speaks of a missed update.
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22:49:06 <fizzie> I think it'd be nice to for once vote in an election that has a ballot with all kinds of questions it. In Finnish elections, you write in one number (or draw a rude picture, or write in "Donald Duck", if you're of that kind), and that's it. AIUI, the US ballots are proper long.
22:51:07 <fizzie> Also curious: in Finland the standard Disney character for a protest vote is Donald Duck, while I understand in US it's Mickey Mouse.
22:51:34 <b_jonas> what? Disney character as protest vote?
22:51:35 <fizzie> Maybe something to do with the relative popularity and familiarity of the characters.
22:51:43 <fizzie> That's what we (and US) do.
22:51:49 <b_jonas> weird
22:51:53 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_vote "Write-in votes may also indicate protest voting; in the United States, Mickey Mouse has historically been a popular choice."
22:52:01 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know specifically why.
22:52:53 <int-e> you could do worse for the standard fictional character....
22:53:39 <fizzie> Oh, we're mentioned on that page too.
22:53:49 <b_jonas> I thought if you wanted to invalidate your ballot, the canonical choice was to mark the first two options or candidates in the list
22:54:01 <fizzie> "In the parliamentary elections in Finland and Sweden, voters have also used Donald Duck as a protest vote.[9] In Ukraine, the Internet Party nominated Darth Vader for mayoral elections in Kyiv and Odesa, and tried to nominate Darth Vader for presidency, although this application was rejected.[10]"
22:54:38 <b_jonas> I see
22:56:37 <moony> Codidact (SE alternative that launched because of that moderation fiasco a couple years back) just launched a codegolf site if anyone's interested. Though when I say just launched i mean it, it's only a few hr old. https://codegolf.codidact.com/categories/49
22:57:26 <int-e> Ballots can get pretty sizeable without tricky questions, just due to the sheer number of choices... like 15 parties and 25 direct candidates...
22:58:27 <zzo38> If the winner of the election is a fictional character or is someone who has been dead for more than one year, then there should be no president, and they have to wait for next year to make another election.
23:00:15 <fizzie> int-e: I guess, but I was really thinking about the part that you fill out. In our case, it's usually like an A6 sized piece of paper with a big circle in one half, and you write your candidate number inside and fold it in half.
23:01:21 <int-e> fizzie: Ah. Here you get a long long list with circles for each candidate... and you mark one of the circles.
23:01:52 <int-e> So the list is the ballot.
23:02:21 <int-e> voting systems are interesting... there are so many of them
23:02:37 <fizzie> Clearly we should get to vote on what's the best one.
23:02:48 <int-e> fizzie: in your case, how do you know you have the right list?
23:03:11 <int-e> it's always easy to find flaws in other systems ;)
23:03:38 <int-e> voting, by and large, is based on a huge pile of trust that nobody (well, not I) wants to think about.
23:03:40 <fizzie> I don't know how it works in sort of absentee-style cases, but at least for in-person voting, the list's taped on the wall of the voting booth.
23:03:56 <fizzie> Presumably they check every now and then that nobody's replaced it.
23:05:05 <fizzie> (Or just trust that it would be noticed, at least I've always cross-checked between what the web said and what's on the wall.)
23:05:11 <int-e> is it also published in newspapers and online so you can verify that the whole polling station isn't colluding against you?
23:05:20 <int-e> ah
23:05:42 <fizzie> It's certainly published online. And all the candidates put their number in their own ads.
23:06:15 <int-e> seems reasonable enough
23:06:16 <fizzie> Oh, and there's the official candidate board things, these street stands with everyone's faces on them. At least for the presidential elections that have a lot less people.
23:06:55 <int-e> and I bet it saves quite a bit on paper
23:07:06 <int-e> and also effort during counting
23:07:19 <fizzie> http://www.skphelsinki.fi/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/10p%C3%A4iv%C3%A4vaalit2012_0017_edited-1.jpg sorta like that.
23:07:33 <int-e> Imagine having to unfold 50cm of paper for each vote...
23:08:07 <fizzie> (I think those must be the boards for the parliamentary ones, I guess every party gets one or something. Not sure how those are divided up.)
23:08:10 <int-e> that's a lot of faces
23:09:33 <fizzie> Honestly I should've just gone to the Wiki instead of Google image search: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Finnish_parliamentary_election_2019.jpg
23:10:09 <fizzie> Oh, fun (probably pretty commonplace) fact about the numbers: nobody gets to be #1, they start numbering from #2.
23:10:45 <int-e> ours tend to look more like number 7 from the left... one or two faces at most.
23:11:00 <int-e> and we certainly have a #1
23:11:50 <fizzie> The 2019 parliamentary elections had a total of 2468 candidates.
23:11:54 <int-e> AIUI, the order of parties is based on the current makeup of the parliament in question... and the same order is used for direct candidates.
23:12:05 <int-e> (Germany, and Austria too, I believe)
23:12:35 <fizzie> (But nobody gets to pick from the full list, the country's split to 13 regions and you can only vote for people from your own list, the sizes of which were 117-492. And one with 5.)
23:12:51 <int-e> hmm, that's still quite long
23:13:18 <fizzie> Yeah, I may have kind of given up on reading everyone's self-description.
23:13:57 <esowiki> [[Elvm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78557 * Jay-jayjay * (+318) Created page with "==[https://github.com/shinh/elvm Elvm]== [https://github.com/shinh/elvm Elvm] is a compiler infrastructure (similar to LLVM) for esotoric (and some non-esotoric) languages. It..."
23:14:13 <esowiki> [[Elvm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78558&oldid=78557 * Jay-jayjay * (-41)
23:15:35 <int-e> In Germany, for the federal level we have a list per district, and only one direct candidate per district is elected... and then a second vote that decides the distribution of party seats (a proportional vote). So the former list tends to have one candidate per party and a few without affiliation. Oh and you can't run in several districts anyway. The latter list... well, the parties make a list...
23:15:41 <int-e> ...of candidates that they fill up their seats from, but you don't vote on those.
23:17:44 <int-e> (This is not without problems... mixing winner takes all and proportional voting this way means that parties can end up having more direct candidates than mandates from the proportional vote. Historically, they could just keep the extra seats. Currently, the size of the whole parliament is increased to the point where the proportions are correct. In the future... who knows.)
23:18:28 <fizzie> Yeah. We've got a proportional representation thingamajick too, so even if you're voting on candidate X from party Y, your vote may be in fact responsible for getting candidate X' from party Y elected. It's some kind of a d'Hondt thing, where the most popular candidate from party Y gets a score that's the total number T_y of votes for party Y, then the second gets T_y/2, the third T_y/3, and then the N
23:18:31 <int-e> And I expect that almost every country has their own idiosyncratic complications in the election system.
23:18:34 <fizzie> highest scores (across all parties) get chosen.
23:19:36 <fizzie> So there's a lot of strategizing, and two or more (smaller) parties can do a union thing to make their candidates treated as from one party, in order to get at least someone in.
23:20:53 <esowiki> [[Elvm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78559&oldid=78558 * Jay-jayjay * (+1218)
23:21:13 <int-e> Anyway, the point was... because each party tends to have one direct candidate per district, that's the face you get to see in that district... and then generic ones (party leaders, chancellor candidates) that are the same across the country.
23:22:00 <int-e> But if you have such long lists, that also explains the many faces on the posters
23:22:48 <fizzie> Right. I guess with our method, there isn't really any drawback for a party to add more candidates (within reason), because if they get a few votes that way, it'll all just sum up to the pot for the popular people they know will get elected.
23:23:46 <fizzie> Here's a picture of what it looks like in the voting booth: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Valb%C3%A5s_med_riksdagskandiidater_Finland_2019.jpg#/media/Tiedosto:Valb%C3%A5s_med_riksdagskandiidater_Finland_2019.jpg
23:24:12 <fizzie> Complete with poorly adhering masking tape holding it up.
23:27:14 <fizzie> Huh, I had completely forgotten our local far-right extremists (Perussuomalaiset) had one of those electoral alliances with the religious ones (Suomen Kristillisdemokraatit). Makes sense, but still.
23:27:42 <fizzie> The same with the liberals and the nerds (not their official names).
23:39:41 <delta23> huh, sounds weird
23:39:45 <delta23> weirdly interesting
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