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00:00:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Super Stack!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78812 * Aanastasiou * (+840) Minor note in an attempt to contact user Orange
00:00:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Super Stack!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78813&oldid=78812 * Aanastasiou * (+96)
01:09:58 <esowiki> [[ABC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78814&oldid=69396 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Discussions */ cat
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05:11:19 <BB42> Hi, I'm that crazy dude from a few months ago that was using an implementation of The Waterfall Method in Magic the Gathering to make the biggest finite combo possible
05:11:22 <BB42> (if the machine loops, neither player can progress the game and it is a draw)
05:12:31 <BB42> I have a few questions for ais523 (or really anyone who knows TWM) that could help optimize
05:14:38 <BB42> Was there ever progress in working out if the "flooding" version was turing complete?
05:15:31 <BB42> I doubt it as it didnt look hopeful, but was maybe possible?
05:18:24 <BB42> What is the minimum number of clocks to be Turing complete? The Spiral rise page has 6+halt clock, is that still the known minimum?
05:22:46 <BB42> If we are limited to ~130 clocks (number of creature types in MTG/2) Can we make a UTM that only needs its initial waterclock values reset without changing the actual programming?
05:23:26 <BB42> Thanks a lot for your help
05:25:21 <zzo38> Often, new creature types are added in newer versions of the rules, after more cards are added.
05:26:09 <BB42> yeah but it is slow
05:26:52 <BB42> i doubt there will be a creature type explosion with 50+ new ones
05:28:20 <zzo38> Yes; just figure out the minimum number of clocks needed to make the UTM you mentioned, I suppose.
05:29:02 <BB42> Yeah but I don't know how to do that >.<
05:29:15 <BB42> build that UTM
05:30:44 <BB42> Also just to show where we are targeting, current best estimates put our last mostly working deck at BB_w^2+w+3_(X)
05:32:03 <zzo38> Also, I think is meant "The Waterfall Model", not "The Waterfall Method", isn't it?
05:34:18 <BB42> BB_0_(X) = BB(X) BB_1_(X)=BB^X(X) (X nested applications of Busy Beaver)
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05:35:43 <BB42> and that w^2 +w+3 number is from the Fast growing hierarchy
05:41:24 <zzo38> Can Shahrazad exceed Turing complete?
05:44:51 <BB42> it doesnt really help as our opponent would start decking if we recursed too far, and the benefit in the main game is negligible
05:48:29 <zzo38> I do keep all of the previous versions of the rules as far as I can (I may be missing some; I don't know), mainly for the purpose of puzzles. (I should keep track of changes of Oracle texts too probably, since sometimes there are relevant changes.)
05:48:49 <zzo38> I don't know if any of these changes will affect the constructions you have described.
05:57:28 <BB42> the construction works in the current rules
06:00:27 <zzo38> Yes, I expected that, but I was mentioning in case some things may be sensitive to such changes
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06:29:32 <zzo38> Can you make a (orthodox) puzzle which depends on the exact number of possible creature types?
06:31:40 <zzo38> (Also, is it possible to do this with land types?)
08:04:27 <BB42> so for creature types the puzzle is something like: Opponent has Coat of arms, Precursor golem, and X 3/3 golem tokens, You have Artificial evolution and Lightning bolt
08:05:09 <BB42> if X is too big you cant kill all of the golems
08:34:30 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78815&oldid=78808 * Void * (+77) Add link to .pdf presentation
08:49:08 <BB42> (actually that doesnt work as you can do 3 to all the golems then make them cats or w/e one by one)
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14:14:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78816&oldid=78798 * Mantita223 * (+12)
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16:51:19 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78822&oldid=66115 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) Oh, the stub-manity!
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17:32:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Spiral Rise]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=78824 * Jfb * (+3861) Finishing the proof
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23:56:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: well the way to make players enumerate as many creature types as they can is something like this. both players have 1 life; two thousand sliver tokens with 1/1 base p/t; and a Coat of Arms. active player has a wurm token with 1000 +1/+1 counters and enchanted with Flight. non-active player has one Might Sliver, Mistform Sliver, Gemhide Sliver, Vedalken Orrery, Retribution of the Meek.
23:58:21 <b_jonas> non-active player has to cast Retribution of the MEek to destroy the wurm. as a reaction, players have to save as many of their slivers as they can by Mistforming them to a unique creature type, or to a creature type that the opponent has so that it's no longer unique. only the creatures with unique creature types survive. if anyone has more slivers surviving, they can use it to win in combat.