> 1606437852 454367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07.Oneline14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78977&oldid=78963 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+10) 10/* Commands */ m
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< 1606437867 995333 :tswett!a2cf47fd@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :o/
< 1606437885 251355 :tswett!a2cf47fd@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswellott, everyone. Wait, no, that's what people say *to* me.
< 1606438217 414328 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1606443547 50463 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is weird
< 1606443552 348365 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cat disk-fs.img | gzip -9 | wc -c
< 1606443552 431114 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :    2339
< 1606443552 431158 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cat disk-fs.img | gzip -9 | gzip -9 | wc -c
< 1606443552 431169 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :     376
< 1606444162 628695 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty surprising. This is just some normal file?
< 1606444296 562191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the original file size?
< 1606444380 216075 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 megabytes; it's an extremely sparse disk image
< 1606444395 529800 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://j4cbo.com/disk-fs.img.gz if you want to poke at it
< 1606444399 381541 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/stdout bs=1024 count=1440 | gzip -9 | gzip -9 | wc -c
< 1606444401 472785 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1440+0 records in \ 1440+0 records out \ 1474560 bytes (1.5 MB, 1.4 MiB) copied, 0.143643 s, 10.3 MB/s \ 68
< 1606444407 21310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/stdout bs=1024 count=1440 | gzip -9 | wc -c
< 1606444407 924262 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :1440+0 records in \ 1440+0 records out \ 1474560 bytes (1.5 MB, 1.4 MiB) copied, 0.108949 s, 13.5 MB/s \ 1464
< 1606444415 47149 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qoxbacjogqhkvzap PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's just a partition table and empty fat filesystem)
< 1606444418 622982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so different :)
< 1606444452 201132 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :gzip has a pretty small block size right
< 1606444542 903345 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :so encoding the blocks of zeros produces a repeating structure which the second gzip can compress
< 1606444547 847179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :32k?
< 1606444562 340224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes it does
< 1606444570 678776 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :with bzip2 and xz the double compression is larger
< 1606444605 131255 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.
< 1606444627 770548 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with bzip2 the single compression is ridiculously small though :)
< 1606444642 126091 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsurprisingly, but still ridiculous
< 1606444677 549878 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unsurprisingly: The BWT has nothing to sort and RLE will work perfectly on the result.)
< 1606444739 570171 :ornxka!~ornxka@unaffiliated/ornx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1606445421 635049 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're reminding me of that repeated compression snake oil thing.
< 1606445476 41499 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :snake oil thing?
< 1606445713 562113 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find the specific example, I think it involved a Finnish company. But something similar to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloot_Digital_Coding_System
< 1606445742 349469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there've been various claims of a compression algorithm that reduces any data large enough by some small margin (like 0.001%)
< 1606445757 91489 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember that, yeah.
< 1606445762 79825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can then iterate to compress any data to... say... approximately 2MB.
< 1606445782 676590 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you can easily prove with pigeonhole principle that no such scheme is lossless
< 1606445795 695434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :8kb here, it seems
< 1606445816 633392 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbf, if you apply a sufficiently advanced psychological model to a movie... ;-)
< 1606445934 308898 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been a lot of them, yes, usually they start asking for investors' money for some reason.
< 1606446026 364375 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found NearZero and ZeoSync, but not the one I'm thinking of. Still think it was a Finnish company, maybe a software development one, who said a "genius" employee had come up with the scheme.
< 1606446090 162606 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, the secret ingredient was that you could just keep repeating it.
< 1606446117 237114 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the secret ingredient is crime
< 1606446145 174956 :ski!~ski@nc-2504-30.studat.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1606446146 746478 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were also "compression" tools for DOS that would just stick the leftover data in unused disk blocks
< 1606446156 459806 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( sufficiently advanced technology does not exist )
< 1606446164 278805 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it worked for a demo but if you actually filled up the disk your "compressed" files would get corrupted
< 1606446186 470295 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: my favorite "compression" technique is to store the data in file names, with all files having size 0
< 1606446192 259039 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha
< 1606446198 531804 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have those cheap USB sticks that work on a similar principle.
< 1606446213 90557 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, they claim a larger capacity than they have?
< 1606446222 15034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :followed by dumping the data in /dev/null
< 1606446238 40027 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, and then keep overwriting existing data.
< 1606446240 51965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we offer excellent compression; decompression will be provided in an update)
< 1606446250 865635 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what limits linux / ext4 enforces on filename size
< 1606446253 611662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rake in money, file for bankruptcy)
< 1606446358 326355 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my compression method can reduce any size file down to one byte. it involves uploading the file to our servers. when you hand us the byte, we hand you the corresponding file. note that only 255 files can be stored at one particular moment.
< 1606446369 710904 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean uh. compressed. yeah. compressed.
< 1606446387 871738 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :cloud-based compression. give me money.
< 1606446428 433501 :ski!~ski@nc-2504-30.studat.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1606447075 156156 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :c l o u d
< 1606447375 173028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: wow, you've reduced a size 5 string to a size 1 string <small>per node</small>
< 1606447535 322081 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have worked on compressions for specific purposes.
< 1606447618 586762 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Think I've heard of the "data in file names" in the context of a trick to work around disk quota on shared systems.
< 1606447659 455530 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have an account on anything that could be called a "shell server" any more, that's sad. :/
< 1606447701 66923 :Arcorann!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1606447701 483928 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including, compressing sokoban levels (all solvable levels can be represented, although unsolvable levels cannot always be represented), and also a picture compression (used in TeXnicard; it tends to be somewhat better than PNG in my experience)
< 1606447762 988869 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in dial-up days, one of the major Finnish ISPs had this shared shell server with a mounted `/work` directory, where you could "temporarily store larger files you're working with". (It was maybe 50%/50% unauthorized copies of software and porn.)
< 1606447777 918701 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1606447811 343071 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the undergrad computing club at my university had shell accounts, with storage quotas
< 1606447818 59981 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you logged in and you were over the quota it gave you several options
< 1606447824 955209 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :one was "quota roulette"
< 1606447840 858868 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would randomly either delete some files or increase your quota permanently to fit what you had stored
< 1606447901 267175 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What other options?
< 1606447902 5934 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. I imagine you could game that by just generating some files you don't care about and playing the roulette. Was there at least a cap or a "at most once a day" kind of a thing? 
< 1606447938 476748 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think you could email the admins, or log in with a restricted shell for the purpose of deleting things yourself
< 1606447941 520091 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what else
< 1606447963 904452 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't recall
< 1606448217 283037 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our university campus had this rather curious network architecture where the whole place (maybe a low single-digit thousand number of people) was wired up as a single Ethernet network segment, meaning you could do SMB file sharing. People had pretty elaborate crawlers and indexers and search servers set up for browsing, though of course availability was pretty random, depending on whether whoever's 
< 1606448223 291455 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :desktop it was had it on. The standard euphemism was that it was all "coursework and exercises".
< 1606448311 555375 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1606448327 508511 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a friend who ran a script to search for open SMB shares and "back up" the files to his server
< 1606448435 968103 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was the student IT rep for my house
< 1606448450 520038 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :one time I was in the lounge reading an email about how such-and-such MAC address had been blacklisted due to suspicious activity
< 1606448480 455664 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as I'm reading I see him enter the lounge, go over to a junk PC hiding behind a sofa, remove the network card and replace it with a new one
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< 1606462299 782686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: If you liked Stephen's Sausage Roll, perhaps you'll like A Monster's Expedition.
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< 1606474068 702587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: "what limits linux / ext4 enforces on filename size" => linux enforces 255 bytes for any pathname component (part between two slashes), strictly, because old directory listing ABIs required that and we need *some* limit and that's a good one to keep. this is ancient unix stuff, and I think all unixen except hurd stick to it, so the unix-related filesystems generally don't contain longer filenames 
< 1606474074 702736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :either. the only time this is a problem is on NTFS, where the limit is 255 *ucs-16 codepoints* which linux decodes to utf-8 and thus may exceed 255 bytes, in which case it comes up with some replacement filename. 
< 1606474103 153988 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: full pathnames themselves don't have a limit, and they don't need one, because you can do basically anything, except for named sockets, using directory filehandles and openat now.
< 1606474656 351279 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1606474671 179901 :LKoen!~LKoen@169.244.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1606475658 310343 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1606481579 964648 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: thanks
< 1606481678 694784 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't openat() a named socket? oh, because you don't open() sockets, you bind() them
< 1606481716 82705 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and struct sockaddr_un has a path field hardcoded to 108 bytes
< 1606481819 385174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think the path can be longer than that struct
< 1606481829 911987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's no way to openat one
< 1606481918 853861 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1606482000 111435 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always found the whole "sockets are things in the file system" thing a little weird.
< 1606482145 986862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you umount a filesystem even if there's a non-abstract Unix domain socket open "on" it? If you bind-mount a file system with a socket on it, will accessing it via two different paths denote different sockets? What about if you have hardlinked directories? I've been assuming the thing in the filesystem is just a placeholder and possibly a container for permissions, and the path name is the real 
< 1606482151 989563 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :identity of the socket.
< 1606482222 264905 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting questions
> 1606482325 409195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Count14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78978&oldid=78971 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-5) 10header, wikipedialink
< 1606482360 613796 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: to your first question: umount: /mnt/tmp: target is busy.
< 1606482380 97279 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Linux chlorophyllum 4.19.0-12-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.152-1 (2020-10-18) x86_64 GNU/Linux
< 1606482407 260421 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if that behavior is specified
> 1606482458 750146 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Count14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78979&oldid=78978 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */ m
< 1606482508 37585 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :connecting through a bind mount works as well
< 1606482553 852684 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. Guess it behaves more "like a file" than I expected.
< 1606483530 271604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they're not reeally things in the file system
< 1606483700 389718 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I said.
< 1606483771 887252 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the directory entry continues to exist after nothing is using it
< 1606483775 619968 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has to be unlinked manually
< 1606483792 357707 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think if you unmount and remount it will still be there
< 1606483845 9130 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's that. I guess it's just an inode, and that's used as (part of?) the key in some in-memory table when you try to connect to it.
< 1606483861 213750 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming it's an actual persisted filesystem and not a tmpfs or something)
< 1606483870 882005 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1606483901 456070 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tuple of (mountpoint number, inode) is probably the actual primary key in the kernel used to find socket-related datastructures
< 1606483904 461001 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't know
< 1606483908 651419 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is odd
< 1606484067 259594 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes, the normal solution is to unlink before you create the socket with bind
< 1606484100 753592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you don't unlink, you can't bind the socket again
< 1606484111 906863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of stupid, but stays like that for historical reasons
< 1606484119 387563 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the UNIX slogan, yes :P
< 1606484129 624235 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :so after you unlink other processes can still connect by name as long as your process holds the socket open?
< 1606484237 678895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't think so
< 1606484245 387020 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know really
< 1606484271 816053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to unlink while I'm still using the socket
< 1606484280 151049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name is there so that other processes can connect
< 1606484288 663653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I want them to connect, I won't unlink
< 1606484398 543780 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1606484414 259333 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you have to be sure to unlink it as the daemon cleans up
< 1606484440 519533 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the use case is for creating and immediately unlinking a named socket, when you could use an anonymous socketpair or an abstract-namespace socket (on Linux anyway)
< 1606484747 447150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: no, you don't have to. you *may* unlink when the daemon cleans up, but what you must do is unlink when you start the demon, before you bind to create the new socket of the same name. that, plus you often want to create those sockets on a tmpfs like /var/run so it's forgotten when the machine reboots.
< 1606484760 248486 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1606484770 693223 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlink at cleanup is more tidy though
< 1606484808 144126 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you should unlink, but it's not a priority if your program crashes or something
< 1606484815 387992 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1606484829 160230 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you have the logic to handle a leftover socket when it restarts
< 1606484929 825803 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a socket exists on disk but no process has it open, is it effectively dead?
< 1606484936 956485 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is there a way to bind to such a socket and listen
< 1606485026 362730 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean my development cycle is like, program gives error message and exits, I look at what the problem is, attempt to fix it, restart the program. it will recreate the socket with the same name anyway, so there's not much need to clean it up between.
< 1606485044 455245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I think it's effectively dead
< 1606485071 872033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure 
< 1606485216 977918 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird that you can't reopen it with bind()
< 1606485290 772254 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1606485493 50344 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a digression i started reading about the O_PATH flag to open/openat
< 1606485500 7043 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lets you do some nifty and odd things
< 1606485513 74606 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :like open a symlink itself, rather than its referent
< 1606485549 661317 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :or open an executable file that you can't read, in order to exec() it out of /proc/self/fd
< 1606485893 788164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes, though the main goal is to be able to open an directory if you only have execute permission for it, not read permission, so you can still *at under it, even if you can't getdents
< 1606485902 979575 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1606485918 501768 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Disconnected by services
< 1606485919 405921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the main benefit or whatever
< 1606485922 528835 :deltaepsilon23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com NICK :delta23
< 1606485944 38668 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1606487328 682893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drawback, of course, is that it consumes one more of the very precious 32 bits of the O_* bitmask. 
< 1606487372 776239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 20 of those bits are already used
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< 1606495842 658315 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@46.217.218.157 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1606498927 747114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1220
< 1606498929 668557 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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< 1606507708 257338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh, by the people who made the snowman hard to build... they do know a bit or two about puzzle design
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> 1606508116 928653 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fugue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78980&oldid=30379 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (+403) 10/* Compiler */ an annoying bug
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> 1606508607 534777 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fugue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78981&oldid=78980 5* 03LegionMammal978 5* (-57) 10/* Compiler */ the bug's more annoying than I thought
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> 1606510217 48843 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Surtic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78982&oldid=76771 5* 03Digital Hunter 5* (+48) 10/* Program halt */
> 1606510280 516620 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Surtic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78983&oldid=78982 5* 03Digital Hunter 5* (+1) 10/* Language basics */
> 1606510480 910156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BitSwitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78984&oldid=78900 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+58) 10/* Interpreter in Python 3 */ exit on error
> 1606510599 465036 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BitSwitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78985&oldid=78984 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+12) 10/* Commands */ imm
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< 1606512116 36633 :catern!~catern@104.131.201.120 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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< 1606512280 469426 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have O_PATH described in the man page for open(2) in my computer, although O_PATH is defined in the header file.
< 1606512402 959703 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it were designed better, I would think it would not consume one of the 32 bits of the O_* bitmask.
< 1606512505 817658 :catern!~catern@104.131.201.120 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1606512610 861145 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how would you design it?
< 1606512723 175189 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would make it so that O_PATH is 0, O_RDONLY is 1, O_WRONLY is 2, and O_RDWR is 3.
< 1606512863 990812 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1606513010 847917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: get a newer version of https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ then (if this is Linux that is, not a BSD)
< 1606513028 78530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read it online at https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/open.2.html in the meantime
< 1606513059 764176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, but on Linux, 3 is already used for something incompatible
< 1606513065 606277 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Linux, so, that will work. (But why does my computer have O_PATH but not the documentation of it?)
< 1606513070 26656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the open manpage actually describes that
< 1606513086 144476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's used to open some device files in a way that allows some ioctls that require neither opening for read nor write
< 1606513095 989385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nope
< 1606513114 40279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's because the kernel and the man-pages are separate packages and you can have different versions
< 1606513117 235093 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I didn't mean changing the numbers on Linux or BSD or any other existing system anyways
< 1606513144 662984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-12-45.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's by design, because you can have newer version of the man-pages, since they usually tell you when every new feature was added to the kernel, and you may be developing programs that may run on older kernels anyway
< 1606513387 282674 :Deewiant!~deewiant@de1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1606513819 288643 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Ah, should I try their other games also?
< 1606513832 894468 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll finish this one first.
< 1606514730 205992 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know. I got the snowman thing in an ancient humble bundle and it turned out to be a pleasant surprise... including some meta level surprises. Not as crazy as SSR though. (And they have moving monsters though, so there's a timing element.)
< 1606514762 445074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, this game also seems easier than SSR.
< 1606514780 622688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like some of the puzzle design things they do.
< 1606514783 392975 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursed is a cool game
< 1606514791 375575 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No timing things as far as I know.
< 1606514809 632441 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Recursed.
< 1606514922 618285 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't finished Recursed
< 1606515049 998430 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't touched it in a while either... I'm missing one level and a couple of gems.
< 1606515108 533038 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, make that two levels.
< 1606515122 331050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or three
< 1606515434 249999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. I have a billion games to play anyway.
< 1606515549 818277 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been watching someone else play Noita, and it's got quite a Bilingual Bonus (TV Tropes link omitted for health and safety reasons) for Finnish, because all the monster names are in Finnish.
< 1606515636 936972 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not exactly a *puzzle* platformer, though.)
< 1606515689 299455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :roguelike... never got into those, unless you see the connection to action-rpgs like Diablo
< 1606515741 792791 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the wand-building mechanics in Noita get a little bit esolang-y.
< 1606515760 780066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes, one dimension of depth is enough
< 1606515782 982111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the physical one, progressing deeper into a dungeon)
< 1606516297 855624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is more of a platformer, hmm
< 1606516316 1896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nope
< 1606516373 87583 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meaning, knock yourselves out, but not for me)
< 1606516516 215644 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really for me either, but fun to watch. The only game I've been actually playing recently is Poly Bridge 2. (I know we briefly discussed bridge-building games here at one point in the past.)
< 1606516581 896682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I'm somewhat addicted
< 1606516617 727177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have shared screenshots like https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/pillars2.jpg
< 1606516657 87039 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poly Bridge is a rather more cartoony (and/or low-poly) than that graphically, but it's much the same gameplay-wise.
< 1606516714 38463 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. AIUI, polybridge also has more materials and mechanical elements (including hydraulics)
< 1606516812 774409 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a sensible bridge I made the other day: https://zem.fi/tmp/bridge1.webm
< 1606516813 870627 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The "share replay" function uses a ridiculously small resolution and bitrate.)
< 1606516821 857220 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bridge constructor has wood, steel ropes (totally overpowerd), steel, concrete... that's it, I think
< 1606516960 286881 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a huge set here either. PB2 has road + reinforced road (only things vehicles can drive on), and for general construction wood, steel, rope, steel cable (totally OP, too), springs and hydraulics. But yeah, the last two make for some more dynamic things.
< 1606517048 877221 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though in a lot of the nominal drawbridges that offer hydraulics as an option, you can actually just leave the right sort of gap for the boat/plane/whatever.
< 1606517275 613794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://zem.fi/tmp/bridge2.webm has some hydraulics in it. If you can actually make them out in that... what's that, 640x360 video at 360kbps.
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> 1606519256 335883 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Count14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78986&oldid=78979 5* 03SpencerW 5* (+454) 10
> 1606520647 48383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Count14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=78987&oldid=78986 5* 03SpencerW 5* (+33) 10