< 1608076866 123182 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions < 1608077010 27159 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, measuring path length < 1608077067 806015 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would make for RASEL if I had another life to spare < 1608077103 349995 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1608077685 93845 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back when I used to golf Befunge with friends, bounding box area was our standard metric. < 1608077706 894252 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's just something very pleasing about a compact square of Befunge code with no appreciable gaps. < 1608077759 37303 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've not written anything large that I'd've applied that style to, though.) < 1608078167 828415 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually an interesting aspect I didn't think about earlier -- the branch we are on has a 1 bit of information in itself < 1608078170 761109 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608078231 575975 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be short but useful to get deeper into stack < 1608078313 798281 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie I use as a metric a bytesize of the file when you save it and editor trims trailing spaces < 1608078374 589477 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use the metric of width+height to promote more squared solutions ) < 1608078403 550170 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-039-190.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.8 < 1608078408 584552 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the circumference, for round. < 1608078455 524232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, some approximation of length of convex hull or whatever. < 1608078851 893189 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-039-190.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1608078947 790832 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79446&oldid=76245 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+59) 10/* Input/output capabilities */ Was this discussed? < 1608079305 82105 :zeroed!~admin@unaffiliated/zeroed QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1608079533 465795 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I was hoping day 5 part 1 would've turned out to be real short, but http://ix.io/2Ier is what I got for it. < 1608079869 873676 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, at least I can use the same bucket sort for part 2: http://ix.io/2Iet -- also moderately happy that only took 5 minutes, and worked the first try. Somehow it's so easy to make mistakes with Befunge code. < 1608079899 753368 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, it's even got some dead code left over from part 1. :) < 1608079955 461528 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wouldn't bounding box area usually end up with a very narrow rectangle? < 1608079997 182989 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608080027 16964 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe in an actual competitive setting it might. < 1608080060 305693 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: especially in variants of befunge that have long jumps < 1608080098 87916 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit when we wrote obfuscated code in perl, a lot of them ended up as compact rectangles, but it's sort of an uninspired formatting < 1608080135 261226 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much that I gave two variants in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 , and I think the one that's not an unformatted blob is nicer < 1608080147 716130 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-135.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then befunge is different, because of its 2d control flow < 1608081330 923587 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh finally I made day 2 part 2 < 1608081386 246657 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie https://dpaste.org/Crmx/slim < 1608081431 640047 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically Befunge-like solution, those "j" are accepting just 1 and 0 and so similar to _ and | < 1608081470 4728 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost in the middle there is branching that does a little of action and storing the 0 or 1 < 1608081497 491323 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at the end another branch uses that saved bit to chose the branch < 1608081538 193743 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean and at the end that bit is reused to branch again < 1608081659 991170 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Befunge-like and no random access < 1608081934 70009 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"j" pointing from opposite sides are effectively the same as XORing the memorized bit < 1608082108 521184 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm, what if I make "?" not "go forward or reverse" but "go 1 cell forward or 2"?.. < 1608082159 859659 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would look the same as I do with ":/j" to test for zero < 1608083217 182562 :adminv!~admin@unaffiliated/zeroed JOIN :#esoteric < 1608083426 148563 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608083438 938932 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1608083507 2143 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1608087154 545581 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1608087285 34923 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1608089723 535900 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, fizzie, after I made it in two lines like you did https://dpaste.org/Qpzh/slim < 1608089738 434845 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see that you did the same thing about storing 0 and 1 in two branches I guess < 1608089774 380958 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-039-190.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.8 < 1608089831 769368 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost identical, lol < 1608097910 6985 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, first interesting AoC day today? < 1608097922 52554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it, Zorn's lemma? < 1608097938 2290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mapole < 1608097943 501501 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg. < 1608097976 17997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thwacks shachaf with a 5.5' by 13 kg non-regulation mapole.
< 1608098241 512300 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608103873 486013 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-039-190.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1608104803 289500 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:5de7:ca9a:33ca:dd73 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608105428 46255 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1608105720 142684 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: Bats are people too! < 1608105917 158539 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608105953 833078 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing the Move() function in Free Hero Mesh would be more complicated to do. Use what it says in the Hero Mesh documentation as the basic hypothesis. Figure out an experiment to distinguish it from other cases. Revise the hypothesis and make up a new experiment, etc. Some things in the Hero Mesh documentation are incomplete or unclear anyways, and I have already figured out some things difference from what it says. < 1608106194 522307 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-135.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1608106656 888478 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608107170 943600 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1608110436 188771 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1608110465 67029 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608110582 772883 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1608111518 430758 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608113853 375165 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608117578 718948 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608119406 794821 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608119476 186966 :LKoen!~LKoen@29.248.88.92.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1608120829 365966 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79447&oldid=77971 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+0) 10 > 1608120883 674132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79448&oldid=79447 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+9) 10 < 1608120940 51371 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1608121022 120404 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79449&oldid=79448 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+3) 10 > 1608121054 71952 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79450&oldid=79449 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+14) 10 < 1608121067 961447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( The password of the month is solarwinds123. (too late, I know) ) > 1608121204 287081 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79451&oldid=78389 5* 03ThisIsTheFoxe 5* (+44) 10 < 1608122037 270097 :user24!~user24@2a02:810a:1440:7304:5de7:ca9a:33ca:dd73 QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1608122612 558239 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Wrongpassword1 5* 10New user account > 1608122897 530197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79452&oldid=79378 5* 03Wrongpassword1 5* (+165) 10 > 1608122927 79650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Wrongpassword114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79453 5* 03Wrongpassword1 5* (+114) 10Created page with "{{retired}} This was a test. How do I delete an account on this wiki?? My pw is the username with a 2 at the end." < 1608122998 822360 :theFoxe!55d81140@HSI-KBW-085-216-017-064.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1608123606 901343 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric > 1608124412 641238 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79454&oldid=79451 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-19) 10Wikipedia link > 1608124505 537971 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HTPF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79455&oldid=79450 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+76) 10Cat, seeAlso > 1608125162 842546 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Wrongpassword114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79456 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+813) 10/* Account deletion appears to be impossible */ new section < 1608126523 76111 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1608127269 449933 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey look, they stopped including the normal sized frame for the default mobile phone SIM card package. the one I bought two years ago still had one. this one only has mini, micro, and Apple sizes (called standard, micro, and nano on the packaging) < 1608127298 684908 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1608127450 260782 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should call the normal one "credit card size" < 1608127567 585699 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: we are old enough to remember these SIMs < 1608127595 304276 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I bought my first mobile in 2000, already has "mini-SIM" < 1608127784 420383 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even remeber the times when you had a phonebook in SIM-card < 1608128198 337826 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" A rot or a 2swap/2dup would certainly make stack-only Befunge solutions much more plausible." => even with that, Rasel would still have the same problem: you can't erase entries from the stack if there are more than a few entries above it that you have to preserve, unless you encode a list to a bigum, which gets ugly and may be hard. so if you want to, say, merge two lists or reverse or sort a < 1608128204 344430 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :list, you can do it fast because of random reads but you have to keep the inputs forever, you can't discard old data. < 1608128248 213927 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of like Underload without ! < 1608128254 379601 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1608128262 600904 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only not quite that restricted < 1608128279 889467 :theFoxe!55d81140@HSI-KBW-085-216-017-064.hsi.kabelbw.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1608128650 471000 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even get the point why to change the SIM card size at all > 1608128996 331521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rasel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79457 5* 03B jonas 5* (+856) 10Created page with "'''RASEL (Random Access Stack Esoteric Language)''' is a [[fungeoid]] esoteric programming language. RASEL code is layed out as a planar array of instructions, with each inst..." < 1608129137 72554 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pspgkoyqheemgkqs JOIN :#esoteric < 1608129194 383711 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: changing from credit-card sized to mini makes sense, because the credit-card sized card wouldn't fit properly into current phones, at least not without it making the phone thicker. changing from mini to micro might perhaps make sense, it helps you make thin phones with two sim card slots and one SD card slots, popular and useful in Europe these days, although there do exist phones with two mini < 1608129200 387041 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sized SIM card slots. I don't understand the Apple size, but Apple has its own third incompatible standards of a lot of things when two other choices are already available. < 1608129364 966896 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" there should be a competitive website about optimizing funge solutions" => there are some golf sites that accept many languages, including Code Golf Stack Exchange, you can try to use RASEL for newly posted problems there. < 1608130909 248920 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1608131197 505302 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98aa4.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608131300 242734 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608131318 555712 :delta23!~deltaepsi@d179-68-39-184.evv.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1608131932 120291 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, new cards are of the same thicknaess < 1608132854 53545 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608132999 420184 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@gateway/tor-sasl/xelxebar QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608133150 578958 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: no, the Apple format is thinner < 1608133239 430073 :VaMpIrU!~btcagency@80.49.84.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608133241 280308 :VaMpIrU!~btcagency@80.49.84.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION Earn your BitCoin Now! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401
< 1608133251 555813 :VaMpIrU!~btcagency@80.49.84.198 PART :#esoteric < 1608133359 287513 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, by the way, means either that the tolerances in the curved pins in the phone are supposed to be such that the difference in thickness doesn't matter and Apple changed it for no good reason, or that Apple has deliberately made all SIM cards in normal phones work worse because their center have to be made thinner and so it's easier to get a contact error in a phone that expects a mini or micro SIM < 1608133365 286653 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :card < 1608133463 216722 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the truth is somewhere in between those) < 1608133915 326606 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One sorta-point about the nano being thinner is that you can make a more robust nano-to-micro or nano-to-mini adapter, because it can have something behind the card. < 1608133945 827651 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no it can't, because the difference is too thin for you to put anything there < 1608133964 207133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what ETSI says is the reason, and I've seen adapters for it. < 1608133974 705111 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you have between plus the gap that will be between the back and the Apple sized card because of imperfections together will be too thick < 1608133981 627483 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are such adapters? hmm < 1608133992 183145 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://docbox.etsi.org/workshop/2012/201201_SECURITYWORKSHOP/3_INTERNATIONAL_STANDARDIZATION/UICC_ETSISCP_Vedder.pdf "Thinner to allow adapters so that the 4FF can be 'clicked' into adapters for use as a 3FF SIM giving a kind of backward usability". < 1608134002 700665 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4FF = nano, 3FF = micro.) < 1608134007 445489 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there definitely are adapters. < 1608134051 861916 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean adapters with a back, not just adapters around the four edges in the plane < 1608134106 152741 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm pretty sure I've seen an adapter with a thin plate supporting the card. < 1608134111 707261 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw in 2018 I was using a very old SIM card, one that was only in mini size without an adapter, so I had to get a new one (for free) when I bought a new phone < 1608134113 310615 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which really just makes it easier to insert. < 1608134134 76014 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Without the card falling off, I mean.) < 1608134139 209337 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a new phone with mini slot that is < 1608134141 982793 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1608134145 422212 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a new phone with micro slot < 1608134211 422286 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all the current phones of this household are now 4FF, but only for the last few months. < 1608135238 907265 :thefoxe!f065e514@240.101.229.20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608136212 663950 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: do you know where lambdabot is? < 1608136229 311057 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops it’s here < 1608136233 80796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@bot < 1608136241 529613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1608136252 439644 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 + 3 < 1608136267 406243 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep doesn’t respond in PM and here too < 1608136293 323390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm. < 1608136347 698695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll kick it in a couple of minutes, let me see if I can get a glimpse of what it's doing first. < 1608136482 143758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm just sleeping? < 1608136572 373540 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1608136682 236548 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I have no clue what happened there. I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here so it may have been some semi-open TCP connection thing. < 1608136759 19292 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1608136815 429865 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: anyway, thanks... I wonder how often this happens < 1608137078 263169 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1608137281 919936 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: for the statistics, I used to ask @messages from it on a daily basis and all was more or less well. But these times I often forget to open an IRC window; though a couple of times on this and other week it responded kindly < 1608137397 559155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Okay, let's hope it was a rare fluke then. < 1608137479 470852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I really don't have a clue where to start debugging this. < 1608137546 69566 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :intriguing! :D < 1608137603 35143 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back when I took over lambdabot it used to disappear for hours at a time until it was manually kicked... the reason for that were semi-open TCP connections; the Freenode server would lose/close the connection, but no RST package was ever received by the server (I infer, never looked at package captures), and lambdabot never sent anything on its own back in those days. < 1608137638 672598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's sending regular pings so it recovers from that within minutes, usually. < 1608137660 740434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, apparently, not this time. < 1608138103 768855 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pspgkoyqheemgkqs QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1608138110 43359 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unluckily I decided to check on IRC before going to sleep, so gtg bye have a nice afternorninghtevening < 1608138370 7230 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.228.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1608138852 121794 :ice303!~sandros@82.191.60.94.rev.vodafone.pt JOIN :#esoteric < 1608141182 851067 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f JOIN :#esoteric < 1608141485 256447 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only real effect of smaller SIM card I see is that it's easier to lose < 1608141682 179889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these things have become so fiddly < 1608141746 552972 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had not heard about the flatter microsims though, somehow < 1608141776 659107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thinner) < 1608141956 871226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But wait, Wikipedia says the 4FF (nano-SIM) are thinner because it's meant to be put into adapters for 2FF (mini-SIM) and 3FF (micro-SIM) formats, rather than as a subversion of the standard. < 1608141971 139666 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where I got that from, yes. < 1608141974 258597 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(We discussed it.) < 1608141986 445191 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah sorry, I'm bad at catching up on context. < 1608142013 690022 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did follow [25] to check though. ;) < 1608142148 794605 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't realize it's (nominally) thinner though. All the recent SIM's I've gotten have been those three-in-one dealies where you pop off the size you need (well, except if you need the 1FF size, but realistically...), wonder if those actually have the middle bit thinner. < 1608142161 1277 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess 0.1mm isn't exactly that noticeable. < 1608142196 846240 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0.76/0.67 < 1608142199 641966 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.1343283582089552 < 1608142219 995488 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all relative, of course. < 1608142313 726710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, no clue how big the tolerances of the sim card slots are in practice, which is the real question here. < 1608142405 406021 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the update to SIM card size makes the phone 0.1 mm thinner? who needs that? < 1608142434 186853 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's around 1% of phone's thickness < 1608142490 917875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they've shrunk the other dimensions too which presumably matters more. < 1608142718 258677 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :bring back credit card size SIMs < 1608142734 977851 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do seem to "advertise" sub-millimeter thickness changes in reviews and such though. But yeah, presumably it's the reduction in area that matters more. < 1608142752 636420 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen a four-in-one SIM. :/ < 1608142835 836058 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've had [12], [23] and [234], but no other combinations. < 1608142853 18053 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself < 1608142865 532017 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :femto-SIM is just a dust you sprinkle into the headphone jack < 1608142871 998304 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except they're getting rid of those too...) < 1608142874 951963 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that eSIM thing. < 1608142905 973057 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that one is permanently soldered, right? < 1608142907 113816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...sprinkle electrons into floating gates... < 1608142917 792122 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, physically speaking. < 1608142929 483033 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logically speaking I think you can "change" what's programmed into it? < 1608142929 980088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it a flash ROM thingy? < 1608142981 843211 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought part of the point of SIMs is that they are like smart cards (and share some common ancestor?) and don't let you reprogram them willy-nilly < 1608143006 188121 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I don't know how exactly the eSIM provisioning works. < 1608143018 372160 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're definitely supposed to be able to change providers. < 1608143089 307654 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The surface mount format provides the same electrical interface as the full size, 2FF, 3FF and 4FF SIM cards, but is soldered to a circuit board as part of the manufacturing process. The eSIM format is commonly designated as MFF2." < 1608143103 20483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A SIM has writable memory anyway, I have a hard time imagining that they make a write only part just to keep things complicated. And there's already the immutable IMEI on the phone anyway. < 1608143153 666027 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture < 1608143156 335703 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at the same time I can imagine all sorts of deliberate barriers for the purpose of vendor lockins. So who knows. < 1608143170 814358 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.hologram.io/blog/clearing-up-the-term-esim didn't really clear it up for me. < 1608143192 462197 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least there's a size comparison. < 1608143238 577067 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eSIM form factor", what the fuck are they talking about? < 1608143311 280261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some of my Pixels have eSIM support, but my main operator (Three) doesn't bother with it. < 1608143312 275836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It does make sense though... MFF2 is a standard for SMD devices that act like a SIM card) < 1608143338 892624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One link further: https://developer.gemalto.com/documentation/mff2-sim-cards-specs-mim-quad < 1608143361 834944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But AIUI, the idea was that it could also be implemented at a much smaller scale, even part of a SoC. < 1608143385 393026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then "eSIM form factor" begins to lose all its meaning. < 1608143387 248728 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :O2 does, though, so maybe I could get my secondary "I need to have this because apparently international text messages are a mess" SIM card into the same phone as the main one. < 1608143405 645372 :kkd!~memxor@unaffiliated/kartikeya PART #esoteric :"WeeChat 2.9" < 1608143621 61731 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, since gemalto is a SIM card manufacturer who wants to stay in business I can understand why they would not even mention alternatives to having a SIM chip on your device for implementing eSIMs. < 1608143886 459132 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe you can open any modern phone and find space for 10 more SIM cards < 1608144243 407738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure... they pack things pretty densely and fill up as much space as they can with the battery < 1608144267 649920 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" it's sitting prettily, not consuming much memory or CPU, hrm. I killed it and that didn't immediately disconnect it here" => ah great, this reminds me of when I was hosting the bot cbstream. < 1608144275 268024 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tagged v0.0.0. Pushed rasel 0.0.0 to rubygems.org < 1608144316 719208 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the symptoms weren't the same, and I think it's a different bug, but it was just about as annyoing. it just hang without realizing it should do anything, even die from not having a connection to the IRC server. < 1608144319 358909 :acedic[m]!acedicmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jvtlxrrfoigsaykh JOIN :#esoteric < 1608144346 879847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: there are sites doing teardowns of mobile devices, that might change your opinion < 1608144355 884953 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now fizzie has problems when the logs web service hangs. < 1608144476 86092 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, that's what the SIMs that I buy are like, three parts, and the middle part *is* thinner, though you may only notice that if you look at it from the back side, where the front side is the one with the connectors towards the phone. < 1608144580 382341 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I guess if they want to make them any smaller they'll need to change the standard, because 4FF is about the same size as the connector itself" => yes, there was already a version with a different connector, but I think it went out of use < 1608144642 819567 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" but that one is permanently soldered, right?" => I dunno, I assume that only happens in small devices. in large enough devices you put a socket under any fiddly thing that you solder with more than two legs. < 1608144800 71893 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I suppose the idea of SIMs as carrier-trusted hardware is probably doomed anyway, since they have to be cheap to manufacture" => I don't think that argument works, because credit cards also have to be cheap too, but they're similarly supposed to be not copiable and only the credit card provider should be able to make one. < 1608144839 383977 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1608145144 865913 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pages about specific languages should be added both to Category:Languages (as above) and to the Language_list" < 1608145149 927309 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there two places? < 1608145168 479109 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to split from "joke language list"? < 1608145229 879637 :thefoxe!f065e514@240.101.229.20 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1608145332 133630 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's very uncommon to find IC sockets in consumer devices, regardless of size, and most ICs these days use surface-mount packages which don't really lend themselves to sockets < 1608145410 890885 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :even setting aside size constraints (which are certainly present on a smartphone) a socket adds expense, both in terms of the part itself and the extra time/effort during assembly < 1608145461 932902 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :surface mount ICs can be placed ridiculously fast by machines and then reflow-soldered all at once < 1608145560 446390 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :most consumer devices are not meant to be repaired at the level of individual chips, maybe a whole board / subassembly but more likely you throw out the whole thing if it breaks < 1608145573 831957 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we're well past the point of physically swapping out ROM ICs as a way of updating firmware < 1608145807 596299 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I admit that credit cards, especially embossed ones, may in fact be much more expensive to manufacture than SIM cards, and I have no idea about their manufacturing costs, because banks and mobile phone service providers give them to you only in conjunction with a service, so they can charge you much more than it costs to make, or much less to incentivize people to always report stolen credit < 1608145813 590701 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cards and SIM cards < 1608145868 124285 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIM cards in bulk can be pretty cheap < 1608145869 432182 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1608145888 143890 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: ah yes, I should add it to [[Language list]]. and I don't know why, there's no point to maintain both, it's just going by momentum and the two are probably significantly desynced by now. < 1608145897 444548 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a couple people who used them for shadytel stuff at toorcamp - bring a burner phone and you have phone service for the weekend < 1608145928 819861 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, duration of the con, which is >weekend < 1608145950 19276 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: while we're there, is this language called RASEL or Rasel? I suspect it's RASEL and I just created the page with the wrong name. > 1608145962 802120 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79458&oldid=79413 5* 03B jonas 5* (+12) 10 < 1608145994 334387 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: true about consumer device repair < 1608146010 639011 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas I was about to create pages for the language and for myself < 1608146012 361378 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, there's still a lot of devices that have easily swappable ROMs, but they're SPI/i2c flash < 1608146021 173853 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm registering an account, solving befunge captcha, lol < 1608146029 303148 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of devices? < 1608146030 411511 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just read all the rules from Help page < 1608146061 695541 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculators, other small embedded stuff < 1608146064 988800 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: ok, but I already created a stub at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel . If it's called RASEL then I'll ask the wiki guys to rename it. > 1608146071 826060 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Nakilon 5* 10New user account < 1608146080 553733 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, in fact I might be able to rename it myself. < 1608146088 470856 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe less so now than 5 years ago, but an eeprom programmer is still a very useful tool < 1608146089 817801 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point of doing that instead of having a header or test points to reprogram the chip in situ? < 1608146121 674678 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, I used my own befunge interpreter -- feels like I've cracked my first captcha < 1608146136 383408 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :multi-chip-modules are expensive, so if you can have one chip for CPU/RAM/other logic and another for flash, it's cheaper in the long run < 1608146149 30427 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas yeah should be all caps < 1608146160 704157 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(weird stuff often doesn't support internal flash. which is also changing) < 1608146163 48006 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I'll move it to [[RASEL]] < 1608146167 687183 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1608146168 918390 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see what that has to do with using a socket or not > 1608146173 102766 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03B jonas 5* 10moved [[02Rasel10]] to [[RASEL]]: I created with wrong name, sorry < 1608146182 561740 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have an external SPI flash chip without socketing it > 1608146184 269992 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79461&oldid=79458 5* 03B jonas 5* (+0) 10 < 1608146282 210225 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolang email confirmation email got spammed by gmail < 1608146285 739065 :harha_!~harha@ns356919.ip-91-121-144.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1608146463 418676 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, not socketed, but at least replaceable by the end-user < 1608146478 179285 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also some machines do socket it > 1608146848 97007 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79462&oldid=79452 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+167) 10machine asked me to prove I'm human < 1608147000 211061 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I don't understand is why SIM cards still have to stay in the phone these days. it perhaps made sense in the 90s, and we have to make SIM cards and phones compatible with the old protocol for a while. but we could phase them to where you can insert the SIM card to a phone once, the SIM card generates a cryptographically signed statement that you put this SIM card to this phone, with a serial number < 1608147001 684144 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas the wiki says there are User pages and Profile pages < 1608147006 179074 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that increases for the same SIM card, then the phone just sends that data to the provider, and the provider only accepts the statement with the latest serial number that they've seen for each SIM card. then you could have just one SIM slot even in dual-SIM phones, or a SIM slot that overlaps with the memory card slot, or have the SIM reader be a cheap external accessory that you don't carry with the < 1608147012 177337 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :phone, like the charger, as the phone manufacturer chooses. < 1608147014 847689 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like your User page contains what is supposed to be on Profile page < 1608147103 580929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the SIM card is an active device in negotiations with the mobile phone network < 1608147114 760798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just a serial number < 1608147205 575487 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: why does it have to be an active device? I mean, I could understand if it had to negotiate with the network *once*, and you couldn't bind it to a phone without that. < 1608147216 566894 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why does it have to stay that way? < 1608147220 356681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you go down that path facing mobile phone providers who like that shit becuse it's convenient for them... you'll likely end up with something resembling eSIM very very closely < 1608147248 324476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is that way because it has always been that way and the parties in power don't want to change it < 1608147270 839785 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... < 1608147325 975165 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're sort of like banks, to a lesser degree < 1608147344 812922 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, phone providers are exactly like banks < 1608147369 484016 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: it's convenient to be able to move my SIM between phones if one breaks < 1608147396 29702 :aaaaaa!~ArthurStr@188.163.100.177 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1608147408 798660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: in a different world that could be as simple as scanning a QR code < 1608147419 736114 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're not living in that fantasy world < 1608147429 871229 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I meant not Profiles but People: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People < 1608147486 386577 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. I feel like a hardware token is easier to manage, in the long run < 1608147501 696919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course a QR code can be replicated very easily while a SIM card cannot (not easily)) < 1608147549 460564 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right ^ < 1608147731 179393 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: yes, I do understand that, especially that SIM cards and memory cards are more resistant to water and shock than the phone or camera around them, that's why I suggested that the SIM card should still exist as a discrete resilient piece of hardware and be rebindable to a different phone by the consumer. int-e: well... I'd sort of prefer if, after I insert my SIM to a malicious phone then to < 1608147737 187509 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :another phone, the former phone can't lie that I've reinserted the SIM to it as long as the latter phone has registered to the provider, < 1608147857 506751 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also I don't want every phone (including cheap ones and home alarms) to be required to have a good enough camera to read a QR code, but perhaps you mean that only as an alternative < 1608147968 7873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes it was supposed to be one of several ways that evolved over time < 1608148007 56597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could've started by requiring users to enter a 30 digit code into their phone the first time they use it. < 1608148033 400550 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, makes more sense. I don't insist either that there can't be cheap phones that require the SIM card to be present all the time < 1608148418 755902 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why there are User: pages in the Category:People? < 1608148452 551547 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe User pages were categorized as People to avoid duplication? < 1608148645 499517 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah it's just users adding themselves to that category presumably because they feel they are people < 1608148712 237038 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, do we care... < 1608148754 724540 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Users are people too? Sounds like some radical product design ideology to me. < 1608148803 474213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm feeling lenient today... I'd say if the user page actually says what they did (languages designed or programs written) it can be in that category. < 1608148846 308899 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, probably, also might have to be written in the "he is", not "I am" narrative < 1608148855 663005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm mostly indifferent; what I said is lazy < 1608148858 770112 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if classified as such < 1608148862 717734 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*categorized < 1608148908 458877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one that doesn't belong is User:Language < 1608148957 988861 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1608148970 478510 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: no. User: pages are for users of the wiki; [[Category:People]] has main namespace pages, not user namespace pages, about people, mostly famous ones, who may or may not be wiki users. < 1608149038 484363 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pznfayggczeibmma JOIN :#esoteric < 1608149064 450846 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People for examples, there are only 67 pages in there, whereas there are about 1000 user pages < 1608149077 270266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I was looking at a cached version apparently < 1608149128 448601 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, ais523 and cpressey have both a user page and a main namespace page < 1608149136 870653 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: so do you care enough to remove the category from the user pages that are in it? < 1608149154 89578 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no < 1608149160 386040 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608149211 416747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm, can I see anywhere how old a cached version of a page is? < 1608149223 142282 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I just propagate this info because I once started to edit ais's user page, and then he asked me nicely to put that information to a main namespace People page instead < 1608149235 750912 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cached time: 20191229022652 Cache expiry: 86400 < 1608149243 556088 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks bogus, somehow < 1608149262 224739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from view-source:https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:People when not logged in) < 1608149286 282921 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you can always just try to go to ?action=purge of the page and then click on the button to regenerate the cache if you feel like it might be old < 1608149306 846995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd rather understand why it is so old. < 1608149326 336911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably won't, but I can wish :P < 1608149540 751604 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas what is "planar array"? what would be a non-planar array? < 1608149548 491737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, kerning... < 1608149649 830915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/doom.png < 1608149690 853050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I genuinely misread this when I saw it on the wiki.) < 1608149726 338296 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :keming? < 1608149734 723506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: exactly < 1608149762 772382 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: its domain is a square grid on the plane. I admit it's not a good phrasing that I added. < 1608149767 200620 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like "Dr. Doom". < 1608149811 399593 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, okay, I'll be editing it now, not sure if concurrent edits are possible < 1608149820 330707 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: the source code of unefunge or trefunge wouldn't be planar < 1608149832 618817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh < 1608149845 767230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that it's deliberate. < 1608149858 670394 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only knew the term "planar graph" < 1608149861 399340 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most languages just take the source code as a linear string of characters, not as a planar array < 1608149866 728306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : is evil < 1608149878 310167 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's not a good terminology, feel free to edit it to something cleaner < 1608149885 204992 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here I was trying to figure out how I misconfigured my browser < 1608149888 496973 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the difference from "two-dimensional"? < 1608149892 620058 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope I have cleaner phrasing for my suggestion to make Befunge a featured language. < 1608149921 28000 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e lol < 1608149925 758017 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is evil. < 1608149950 532821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or was? I hope "is" is still applicable. But we haven't seen him in a long time.) < 1608150059 727384 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge's page says: Code is layed out on a two-dimensional grid of instructions < 1608150081 167840 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "laid" ) < 1608150116 497771 :kmc!~beehive@unaffiliated/kmcallister PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still mix those two up < 1608150154 711830 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why are there two space symbols between sentences? < 1608150183 884072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"However, the difference is that while they once meant the same thing, one is no longer used as a word." < 1608150191 801506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about "laid" and "layed") < 1608150261 970877 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe https://www.npr.org/2020/04/28/846919788/typing-debate-do-you-type-2-spaces-between-sentences-or-1 < 1608150312 956661 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, for Befunge I write "where code is stored in a two-dimensional grid of instructions, each encoded by an ASCII character" < 1608150320 297206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://grammarist.com/style/spaces-between-sentences/ blames it on typewriters and says it should be laid to rest. < 1608150329 1391 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks a bit better < 1608150353 90758 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing. < 1608150395 170025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs's auto fill agrees with having 2 spaces. I should configure it to not do that. < 1608150407 193925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ITYM "that opinion is disputed. I like double-spacing." < 1608150440 828072 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nah, on IRC I often use a less formal style, where I don't bother with consistent capitalization or punctuation < 1608150450 539391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike it; the . is narrow enough to give the space following it a wider appearance. < 1608150483 407947 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly I'm also not consistent in double-spacing sentences in places where I wrote somewhat more properly < 1608150485 600900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as with so many things this is a matter of habit and (implied, really) taste, not one of right or wrong. < 1608150514 430777 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case of Mediawiki, those spaces will be collapsed by HTML rules anyway, so the distinction doesn't matter all that much > 1608150517 390112 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RASEL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79463&oldid=79459 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+9) 10Stbu < 1608150545 793549 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my source code comments have both single-spaced and double-spaced style < 1608150778 458673 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's the job of OS font rendering to put enough space between . and letter when there is space char in between < 1608150834 952923 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, someone has edited the page _-- < 1608150874 632096 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's fine < 1608151588 857712 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow the number of new languages each year is growing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories < 1608151719 546131 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised, kind of < 1608151742 260362 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's easy to make a derivative language, but... huh < 1608151750 402084 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: they're only growing if you count every page that calls itself a language. the number of *interesting* and novel languages isn't really growing. < 1608151759 758518 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean their rate of creation isn't growing. < 1608151765 44135 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1608151899 719739 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's possible to track them making a list of "innovative languages" that would have to introduce new feature not seen in languages before them < 1608151953 119844 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: I recommend the approximation to take https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523 and multiply it by a factor of between 2 to 6. < 1608151992 151736 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly that is not a good approximation < 1608152002 235673 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because how many ideas ais has varies a bit < 1608152172 628797 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, Russian Wikipedia has a category Users Who Use IRC < 1608152207 413767 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several dozens of users there that is supposed to match those who can be contacted in the IRC channel here on Freenode < 1608152220 749182 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have the same < 1608152280 147418 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be precise: "Категория:Википедия:Участники IRC-канала wikipedia-ru" > 1608152580 58693 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Arrows14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79464&oldid=65721 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-23) 10wip > 1608153189 970825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79465&oldid=79303 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-24) 10More aggressive shortening > 1608153648 199677 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79466&oldid=79465 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (-212) 10hm < 1608153838 925676 :adminv!~admin@unaffiliated/zeroed NICK :zeroed < 1608154114 754463 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most interesting stuff I've read today on the wiki < 1608154118 739286 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Using a stapler, the fork is multiplied by the sauce and the result assigned to the fork using a drinking glass. " < 1608154142 750351 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: that's about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Efghij I think < 1608154147 338207 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1608154159 253519 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you remember its name < 1608154175 326342 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: it's linked from my user page < 1608154179 76834 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's the alphabet order < 1608154194 420034 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, but which part of the alphabet? < 1608154200 805742 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it from the category of languages that have no code < 1608154631 701838 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a convenient representation of integers for intercal if you want to use those integers as indexes that you use to index arrays with, but you only increase or decrease them one at a time, and equality compare them, never subtract or add or less-than compare them? < 1608154772 754673 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-14-22.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1608154801 233272 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would have to be unambiguous, unlike that other interesting representation where you represent an integer as the difference of two ordinary integers (or the difference of an ordinary integer from twice another ordinary integer), so that you always access the same element of the array for the same integer index < 1608155053 250869 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1608155438 788729 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric > 1608156117 167334 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Depend14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79467 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1363) 10Add Depend > 1608156174 660733 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79468&oldid=79461 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+13) 10/* D */ +[[Depend]] > 1608156216 700283 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:PythonshellDebugwindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79469&oldid=79414 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+38) 10/* Languages */ +[[Depend]] > 1608156337 478202 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79470&oldid=79466 5* 03PythonshellDebugwindow 5* (+1) 10/* Ini */ m < 1608156534 975629 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1608156604 739921 :TheLie!~TheLie@business-24-134-17-157.pool2.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1608156892 274827 :TheLie!~TheLie@2a02:8106:215:3300:7285:c2ff:fe0b:917f JOIN :#esoteric < 1608158385 894312 :Arcorann_!~awych@159-196-65-46.9fc441.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1608159212 283721 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pznfayggczeibmma QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1608160066 628116 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Nakilon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=79471 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+94) 10Created page with "Hello, I made [[RASEL]]. You can find me with the same nickname in IRC:Freenode and Telegram." < 1608160128 222483 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is RASEL Turing complete? I don't have a clue in these terms > 1608160561 942876 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RASEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=79472&oldid=79463 5* 03Nakilon 5* (+2154) 10removed things that are already described in the article 'fungeoid'; added infobox proglang, instructions table, two basic examples < 1608160586 623692 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also maybe it applies to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Push-down_automata as Befunge does < 1608160667 12472 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll add some neat examples of using the 'a' instruction later < 1608160910 95937 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 0.0.0 gem version had a bug of not having executable in it ) I've pushed the 0.0.1 version so now usage examples from README should work < 1608161793 405330 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, guys, there was a website with a game on Flash where you had to program a robot, and I can't find it < 1608161844 215353 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language was short and you could pass functions into functions < 1608161999 400931 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We (as in, the channel collectively) played that one game slightly like that (which a HTML version too), but I don't think you could "pass functions into functions" in it, it was much simpler than that. < 1608162003 208713 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the game for https://adventofcode.com/2020/day/15 is http://oeis.org/A181391 < 1608162040 328136 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was like a Lightbot in that thing that there is a field and you have to write instructions to only get out of this exact wield with walls, avoiding them and reach the exit < 1608162076 357240 :nakilon!~nakilon@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and solutions were ranked by the length of the code that as I said could be recursive < 1608162085 231241 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that seems to be a common theme. This one had stars you needed to collect, and stay on a certain-colored square. < 1608162130 594969 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nakilon: it is Turing-complete, yes, because you can simulate any of these darned finite state control machines with a single cyclic queue of a fixed alphabet in it < 1608162154 681104 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... wait < 1608162158 742635 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :RoboZZle, that's what we played a bunch. < 1608162161 174119 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure now < 1608162251 677676 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, different attempt of proof. you can implement any [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] program in it < 1608162421 745813 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever the simulated machine stores something into a register, you push it onto the stack and keep it there forever (or push the whole register set if you prefer). you can make a loop with the directional instructions, you can load the value of any register because you know how deep it is in the stack, so you push a constant then use the a instruction to get it from the stack. then we just have to < 1608162427 763528 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :verify that you can do addition, subtraction, multiplication, and integer division, if the two arguments are on the stack. < 1608162492 598237 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or let's say, you can do those operations if you know how to push each argument to the stack < 1608162568 40515 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so say >x> pushes the left argument and >y> pushes the right argument, then subtraction is >xy->, addition is >x0y-->, multiplication is >x1y//>, < 1608162568 939870 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.9 < 1608162604 365919 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and integer division is >xy/:1%-> if I understand correctly how Rasel works < 1608162612 861740 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make sense? < 1608162634 465731 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this uses the fact that Rasel can store arbitrary precision integers on the stack of course < 1608162881 943356 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use the fungeoid control flow too, I think it can even implement a machine with arbitrary finite state control and arithmetic and comparisons on several bigint registers: this time you do push the full register file to the top of the Razel stack after each simulated instruction, and use like >xy-?v> to branch down if x is lessequal to y < 1608162963 100083 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may still ask if Rasel is still turing-complete without using arbitrary size integers (or rationals, whatever), and I don't know the answer, but if it's not, then it would be with a bunch of extra registers, or with instructions that rearrange values in a top window of the stack < 1608163002 13270 :b_jonas!~a@catv-176-63-12-34.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it's already Turing-complete but don't want to bother proving it